User talk:HiLo48: Difference between revisions

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Welcome!

Hello, HiLo48, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{helpme}} before the question. Again, welcome! -- Longhair\^talk 07:32, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Further

Further to my response at my talk page I note that both Longhair and Brian have come to your page to welcome you. Both are great participants here and you have some fundamental links to get you started in terms of understanding. If you need more help please ask at any time.--VirtualSteve ^{need admin support?} 07:31, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer and rollback

Hi, I've added a couple of flags to your account: reviewer and rollback. I hope you find them useful. Let me know if you have any questions. Regards — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:07, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

For keeping the baddies at bay...

		The Anti-Vandalism Barnstar
		Thanks for keeping an eye out for damaging edits. bodnotbod (talk) 10:13, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to move this barnstar to wherever in your user space you'd prefer to have it. bodnotbod (talk) 10:13, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Humor at Protected Pages

As someone who lives on an island (granted its a VERY large island) perhaps you are unaware of what the rules are on the Mainland (thats what we call it) for articles that may be considered political in nature;

Any cross-party hugfest can only be initiated by the right,
Any internal hugfest (or support of one another) within the right should NOT be constued as anything more than friendliness and cheerful banter,
Any internal hugfest (or support of one another) within the left could, should and will result in immediate blocks and bans to the active participants and severe reprimands to any editors that were seen smiling in the general vicinity.

These are just some basic guidelines to assure the safety and sanity of your fellow editors. A good rule of thumb to follow is that if the right is obviously humorous 3 times in a row, some humor from the left will be tolerated since the conversation will be ended via "shrink wrap" at any moment. BTW, sorry about the spelling of humour. Buster Seven Talk 20:25, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for information

Hello HiLo48, This lousy t-shirt has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling at someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Go on, smile! Cheers, and happy editing!
Smile at others by adding {{subst:Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

Compliments on your sang froid

I can't help but admire your reaction the other day to the namecalling you were subjected to by Encyclopedia91. You must have the patience and forbearance of a saint! I know I would have reacted quite differently. You are a model for us all. Sincerely, --Kenatipo ^speak! 21:59, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nice Koekjes

Buster7 has given you a Nice Koekjes which promote fellowship, goodwill and WikiLove. Hopefully this one has made your day better. You can spread the good flavor of Nice Koekjes around Wiki World by giving someone else one. Maybe to a friend or, better yet, to someone you have had disagreements with in the past. Nice Biscuits are very tasty and have been known to calm even the most savage beast. Enjoy! Buster Seven Talk

I just gave a koekje to an Aussie friend, User:Alastair Haines and I thought of you. It's fresh. I made it last night. Buster Seven Talk 14:27, 8 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Some words I'm working on

Been thinking about this criticism issue for a while. Probably not the ideal place to say this, but I want to try putting the words together. I think criticism sections are almost always going to be inappropriate in Wikipedia. Just about everyone has somebody who disagrees with them about something. Some, like outspoken atheists, will have more than many from conservative religious parts of society who disagree. That's a given. We cannot possibly list all the criticism, so what's the point of listing any? We should just describe what's significant about someone (i.e. why they have an article here) and let others decide on the merits of their actions and views. The same goes for people significant for their strong religious views. List those views, and let it stand. Going any further will inevitably create the debate of "how much further?" So, no criticism sections. OK?

I agree with you 90+%. Criticism sections are lazy writing, often places for sneaking in their point-of-view. They are often a way of taking an obscure critic and giving them promotion by adding their opinions. I often get the impression that some editors start with a point of view and then web search until they find some obscure opinion piece and add it to the article. In these cases, only reliable sources and notable ones will do. Instead of putting criticism in its own ghetto, if legit it belongs next to the ideas being presented. Thank you for bringing up an important issue. --Javaweb (talk) 00:10, 15 July 2011 (UTC)Javaweb[reply]

You two might want to check out Wikipedia:Criticism, an essay that discourages the existence of criticism sections and goes over the main points against them.AerobicFox (talk) 22:20, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you

File:PNHP poster.jpg	For your great work at the Reference Desks
	Please accept this Physicians for a National Health Program poster for all the hard reference desks you answer. You're so often catching them faster than I can. Spectacular! Dualus (talk) 04:31, 21 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I support you

You were right in the Pregnancy talk page. The image you wanted in the lead has a much more "medical", serious and informative tone than the one that the scores of probably American nipple-o-phobic prudes finally forced there. Actually, even from a purely aesthetic point of view the bare breasted image is superior because of the more "charming" expression of the woman in the picture, rather than the a bit like "whatcha lookin' at" expression of the Asian woman. --Cerlomin (talk) 22:01, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A kitten for you!

For your sport work. :)

LauraHale (talk) 01:59, 10 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Happy Australia Day! Thank you for contributing to Australian content!

	Australian Wikimedian Recognition (AWR)
	Thank you for your contributions on English Wikipedia that have helped improve Australian related content. :D It is very much appreciated. :D Enjoy your Australia Day and please continue your good work! LauraHale (talk) 02:46, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A barnstar for you!

	The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
	I have spotted your username regularly popping up and, on occasion, beating me to a reversion. You also seem to be active in a wide variety of activities on Wikipedia. Keep up the good work! LittleOldMe (talk) 07:40, 6 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Barnstar

		The Original Barnstar
		This has been due for a while. From someone who disagrees with you 3/4 of the time, to someone who understands what an objective world encyclopedia should be, and puts all else aside in pursuing that end, and who's methods of disputing are refreshingly direct. North8000 (talk) 13:08, 23 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The Olive Branch: A Dispute Resolution Newsletter (Issue #1)

Welcome to the first edition of The Olive Branch. This will be a place to semi-regularly update editors active in dispute resolution (DR) about some of the most important issues, advances, and challenges in the area. You were delivered this update because you are active in DR, but if you would prefer not to receive any future mailing, just add your name to this page.

In this issue:

Background: A brief overview of the DR ecosystem.
Research: The most recent DR data
Survey results: Highlights from Steven Zhang's April 2012 survey
Activity analysis: Where DR happened, broken down by the top DR forums
DR Noticeboard comparison: How the newest DR forum has progressed between May and August
Discussion update: Checking up on the Wikiquette Assistance close debate
Proposal: It's time to close the Geopolitical, ethnic, and religious conflicts noticeboard. Agree or disagree?

Read the entire first edition of The Olive Branch -->

--The Olive Branch 19:07, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

The Olive Branch: A Dispute Resolution Newsletter (Issue #2)

To add your named to the newsletter delivery list, please sign up here

This edition The Olive Branch is focusing on a 2nd dispute resolution RfC. Two significant proposals have been made. Below we describe the background and recent progress and detail those proposals. Please review them and follow the link at the bottom to comment at the RfC. We need your input!

View the full newsletter

Background

Until late 2003, Jimmy Wales was the arbiter in all major disputes. After the Mediation Committee and the Arbitration Committee were founded, Wales delegated his roles of dispute resolution to these bodies. In addition to these committees, the community has developed a number of informal processes of dispute resolution. At its peak, over 17 dispute resolution venues existed. Disputes were submitted in each venue in a different way.

Due to the complexity of Wikipedia dispute resolution, members of the community were surveyed in April 2012 about their experiences with dispute resolution. In general, the community believes that dispute resolution is too hard to use and is divided among too many venues. Many respondents also reported their experience with dispute resolution had suffered due to a shortage of volunteers and backlogging, which may be due to the disparate nature of the process.

An evaluation of dispute resolution forums was made in May this year, in which data on response and resolution time, as well as success rates, was collated. This data is here.

Progress so far

Leading off from the survey in April and the evaluation in May, several changes to dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN) were proposed. Rather than using a wikitext template to bring disputes to DRN, editors used a new javascript form. This form was simpler to use, but also standardised the format of submissions and applied a word limit so that DRN volunteers could more easily review disputes. A template to summarise, and a robot to maintain the noticeboard, were also created.

As a result of these changes, volunteers responded to disputes in a third of the time, and resolved them 60% faster when compared to May. Successful resolution of disputes increased by 17%. Submissions were 25% shorter by word count.(see Dispute Resolution Noticeboard Statistics - August compared to May)

Outside of DRN other simplification has taken place. The Mediation Cabal was closed in August, and Wikiquette assistance was closed in September. Nevertheless, around fifteen different forums still exist for the resolution of Wikipedia disputes.

Proposed changes

Given the success of the past efforts at DR reform, the current RFC proposes we implement:

1) A submission gadget for every DR venue tailored to the unique needs of that forum.

Similar to the one that was deployed, with great success, to the DRN.
Structured based on the specific issues most commonly dealt with at each forum.
Designed to improve the quality of requests for DR and the efficiency of DR at that forum.
Applicable at following noticeboards: Dispute resolution, Neutrality, Reliable Sources, Original Research, Biographies of Living Persons, Notability noticeboard, Fringe theories, Conflict of Interest, Ethnic and cultural conflicts, External links, Third opinion, Mediation Committee, Arbitration Committee.
Forms will merely fill out any existing templates (such as Arbcom's) and create a markup-free form in line with specific noticeboard practices otherwise.
Example form fields: What pages are involved? What users are involved? What is the issue? What resolution is desired?

2) A universal dispute resolution wizard, accessible from Wikipedia:Dispute resolution.

This wizard would ask a series of structured questions about the nature of the dispute.
It would then determine to which dispute resolution venue a dispute should be sent.
If the user agrees with the wizard's selection, s/he would then be asked a series of questions about the details of the dispute (for example, the usernames of the involved editors).
The wizard would then submit a request for dispute resolution to the selected venue, in that venue's required format (using the logic of each venue's specialized form, as in proposal #1). The wizard would not suggest a venue which the user has already identified in answer to a question like "What other steps of dispute resolution have you tried?".
Similar to the way the DRN request form operates, this would be enabled for all users. A user could still file a request for dispute resolution manually if they so desired.
Coding such a wizard would be complex, but the DRN gadget would be used as an outline.
Once the universal request form is ready (coded by those who helped create the DRN request form) the community will be asked to try out and give feedback on the wizard. The wizard's logic in deciding the scope and requirements of each venue would be open to change by the community at any time.

3) Additionally, we're seeking any ideas on how we can attract and retain more dispute resolution volunteers.

Please share your thoughts at the RfC.

--The Olive Branch 18:41, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

I have to record this before it gets buried

"...user HiLo48 has a biased towards Netball and against male sport's."

I think it's a gem.

HiLo48 (talk) 06:24, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A barnstar for you!

	The Original Barnstar
	YOU are a human being with a brain, NO scarecrows allowed. Kennvido (talk) 10:29, 4 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed closure of RfC/U

Hello there, I'm a relatively uninvolved user in relation to your editing. I took a read through the RfC/U and proposed a closure at Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/HiLo48#Proposed Closure. Please read it and see if it is something you could live with. Having read your user page declaration I think that it is. Please let me know. Thanks Hasteur (talk) 16:51, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hasteur, I appreciate what you're trying to do here. For reasons I've outlined many times elsewhere, I regard Wikipedia's justice and discipline processes to be appalling opportunities for the bigots and POV pushers to promote their non-constructive and malicious agendas, and pile mud on an accused, with virtually no chance that their behaviour will be scrutinised in that place, nor for the accused to defend themselves, so I really would prefer to not have to look at any of that RFC/U. It will just make me feel like being uncivil because of the masses of nonsense therein. But, because I can see that yours is a good faith proposal, I have had a look at just that section.

Again, because I know that many of those who would like to silence me do look at my User pages, I'll copy the proposal here for clarity:

HiLo48 acknowledges that their behavior, at times, is incivil and will endeavor to refrain from the identified language. HiLo48 acknowledges that future incivil behavior may result in suspension of editing privileges or referral to ArbCom for resolution of the long standing conduct dispute.

I would still argue that most of this dispute is not a conduct one, but a content one. That should be obvious to any objective reader who might notice that everybody criticising me over civility has also disagreed with me over content, some very nastily. (But possibly without naughty words, which I think only makes it worse.) Attacking me over civility was always a distraction from the truth, and from making Wikipedia a great, objective encyclopaedia.

Another point - I would like all involved to look at Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/Civility enforcement. That's the latest incarnation of an agonisingly slow attempt by some here to firstly define incivility, and then decide on punishment for those evil folk who allegedly display it. The discussion really hasn't got past the definition stage. If Wikipedia cannot define incivility, logically, nobody can be disciplined for it. (I know logic doesn't really apply here, sadly, but....) Interestingly, much of that discussion has occurred with virtually no contributions from any of those more interested in attacking me at the RFC/U.

I will also repeat my point that some of my allegedly uncivil language has successfully drawn attention to some very nasty POV pushing by some of those who have now tried to silence me via the RFC/U, and ended up keeping some appalling, POV nonsense out of Wikipedia. I am proud of that. I ask objective observers, which would you prefer - no naughty words, but lots of POV in Wikipedia, or occasional telling-it-like-it-really-is on Talk pages, and a better encyclopaedia as a result?

In conclusion, my position on niceness is made clear at User:HiLo48#A non-swearing vow (Lying is safer). I have no plans to change that position. Ironically, it has been in place since well before the RFC/U, but nobody seemed to notice. Trying to silence an effective enemy must have seemed a much easier option to many than finding out the truth.

Again, thanks Hasteur for your good faith proposal here. HiLo48 (talk) 23:56, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think the RfC/U was closed. It's hard to tell. It seems these things aren't publicised very well. Certainly nobody told me. Not sure what it all means. Nothing seems to have changed anywhere. Just a lot of nasty words written about me by people who don't like my approach to the damage they do to Wikipedia, while I was off making another few thousand positive contributions. Oh well, such is life. HiLo48 (talk) 11:52, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A barnstar for you!

	The LGBT Barnstar
	It's the very special LGBT Barnstar for the way you calmly handled the dispute with DarkGuardianVII on Talk:Homophobia. Congratulations and keep up the good work! ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 11:18, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Happy Australia Day! Thank you for contributing to Australian content!

	Australian Wikimedian Recognition (AWR)
	Thank you for your contributions on English Wikipedia that have helped improve Australian related content. :D It is very much appreciated. :D Enjoy your Australia Day and please continue your good work! Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:12, 25 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A barnstar for you!

	The Civility Barnstar
	Brilliant thoughts and prose that emanate from you...! Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 22:01, 2 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A barnstar for you!

	The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
	Good Lord, the vandals just won't leave LaPierre alone, Bravo Sir! Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 20:44, 9 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Useful source for Sport in Australia and footy people

this Canberra Times article is pretty good and might be worthwhile trying to integrate into the Sport in Australia andFootball in Australia article.--LauraHale (talk) 05:53, 27 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the same article appeared in The Age yesterday, so I posted a link on Talk:Football in Australia yesterday, seeking comment. No responses yet. Might just go ahead and use some of it. HiLo48 (talk) 07:31, 27 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A barnstar for you!

The Resilient Barnstar

You've earned it. You've had a lot of stick; some earned, some not so much, and yet you're still here. You're a much valued contributor and the constant stream of vandalism to your user page is surely proof of this. If you're not getting vandalism then you're not working hard enough =P. Well done HiLo48 and keep your pecker up! (Pun intended) ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 22:13, 20 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Aussie rules as AFL

You asked in an edit summary at Sport in New South Wales‎ for a source for the use of AFL as an alternative name for Australian rules football. This article from the SMH mentions the phenomenon. Hack (talk) 12:15, 26 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Good source, and weird. I've clarified the statement, and added that source to the article. That name just seems wrong to me, and confusing, as that SMH article says. Does anybody in NSW care about that? Or are most simply unaware that their usage wouldn't work in other places? Australia is an interesting country. On one front we have the soccer fans, particularly in NSW telling everyone in Australia we must all call their game football, apparently in complete ignorance of the fact that that name cannot work in those states where Aussie Rules is VERY commonly called football, then we have NSW telling us all that Aussie Rules is called AFL. (Is it a secret push by the soccer fans?) We have less well informed Victorians totally confused about the difference between rugby union and rugby league, and using the names rugby and league interchangably, which annoys the folks up north. And everywhere I've said NSW probably applies to QLD, but I'm not certain, and everywhere I've said Victoria, it probably also applies to TAS, SA, WA, NT and the Riverina, but I can't be sure. Do we end up with multiple articles with different language for the one country, or do we constantly explain that our leather ball sports have different names in different parts of the country? Do we need an article on that fact alone? (Or do we already have it?) HiLo48 (talk) 21:27, 26 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The usage seems pretty widespread in NSW and Qld in my experience. The odd thing is that the AFL are actually spreading the usage outside NSW/ACT. There is a nationwide grassroots participation program called Play AFL - targetted at getting kids playing Aussie rules. On the confusing naming of the various footballs, Football in Australia touches on the differences in terminology in the first section but could do with expansion and clarification. Hack (talk) 05:00, 27 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Aaarrghh. Newspeak lives. Corporations have no respect for correct language, do they? Sadly, that section in Football in Australia has only one citation, and it's dead. (What has the federal Dept of Culture and Recreation turned into since 2008?) Anything we add should be properly sourced. You've given us one good starting point. Not sure what else is around. The stuff on soccer vs football is a real challenge. Almost everyone who writes about it is pushing an agenda. (Except me of course.) HiLo48 (talk) 05:34, 27 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Found the page originally on the Department of Culture and Recreation site - it had been replicated on another government website. Hack (talk) 04:02, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Following on to the points you make above and apropos of our discussions a couple of years ago, you may be interested to read this transcript: http://neososmos.blogspot.com.au/2012/09/researching-australian-soccer-history.html

I make no comment and I hope that you will appreciate that I am only pointing you to it as I know you have an interest in this.

You can respond here. I am watching here.

Cheers Silent Billy (talk) 07:03, 27 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Terrific article. Thanks for sharing it. It certainly highlights the confusion over the name. And I learnt something - that the Victorian Football Association, an Aussie rules competition, got in the way of the name Association Football being used for soccer. I grew up in Gippsland, an early home of soccer in country Victoria, mentioned in the article. In fact it was in Yallourn, a now non-existent town in the Latrobe Valley. (Click on the link to discover why.) Thousands of European immigrants made soccer a big sport. In fact Yallourn was the state champion club one year back in the 1950s. But the name couldn't be football. That was already taken. That all that means that I know a fair bit about the game. I've coached girls teams at school, with some success. So, thanks for bringing back the memories. HiLo48 (talk) 08:18, 27 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Another interesting read on the Guardian Australia website - [1] Hack (talk) 08:10, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think that one is written from a Sydney perspective. It's important to emphasise the difference between NSW/QLD, the rugby league states, and the rest of the country, where Aussie Rules reigns supreme. All the big soccer decisions come out of Sydney. And Aussie Rules is only mentioned in one paragraph, with "opponents of the "football" crusade charge its leaders like Foster with sporting imperialism, arguing that football in Australia refers to "the native game" Australian Rules." That's not my perspective. Mine is that one doesn't have to argue it. In the Aussie Rules states, "football" simply IS Aussie Rules. There is no point in arguing about it. All the clubs called football clubs play Aussie Rules. Most of the clubs that play the round ball game call themselves soccer clubs, for the extremely obvious and unarguable reason that Aussie Rules got the name "football" first in most communities. In my suburb and all our neighbouring suburbs we have one of each, a football club (Aussie Rules) and a soccer club. What sense would there be in the soccer club trying to become a football club? And I still don't understand what's wrong with the name "soccer". HiLo48 (talk) 08:30, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A barnstar for you!

	The Barnstar of Diplomacy
	For your numerous, thoughtful and enriching contributions across the wikiscape even in the face of a few misguided editors who have forgot their civility. Thank you for always being welcoming! ^{Market St.⧏}_{⧐ Diamond Way} 08:20, 8 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

While you were out...

File:Message pad with pen.jpg	While you were out...
	An IP struck and left you an unpleasant message. Reverted it and warned the IP not to do it again I did. This is to let you know. Enjoy your day ツ Jenova 20 ^(email) 12:46, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I always wonder how such comments contribute to the writer's sense of well-being. I guess everybody is different. HiLo48 (talk) 06:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Items of cultural significance in Australia

You have mentioned multiple times on ITN that Australian items get rejected. I'm all for a more inclusive ITN, so perhaps you can help me out with some items you'd like to see posted on an annual basis. I would assume Rugby Union and Australian Rules Football are at the top of the list in cultural importance. Rugby Union is well represented on ITN/R and Football is listed as well - hopefully they stay in the ITN/R rewrite. Then there is the Melbourne Cup and Australian Open, both ITN/R. I assume the swimming word championships are pretty darn important and aren't ITN/R so that's a potential target. Beyond sport, things are less clear to an outsider. Melbourne International Comedy Festival looks like a good candidate, but has never been nominated as far as I can tell. (Would you prefer the opening or the Barry Award?) Google suggested Perth International Arts Festival but our article is just a stub, so maybe its not important in Australia after all - maybe Adelaide Fringe Festival (or Adelaide Festival, not getting the distinction here) is the one that matters. Melbourne International Film Festival looks promising. Comments on the above? What else is worth targeting for inclusion? --ThaddeusB (talk) 05:42, 1 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

ITN/R items are less of a problem than one off events. Adding something to ITN/R can be done with discussion over several weeks or months. There is no deadline. And fewer editors driven mainly by emotion stick around. It allows time for more mature and complex discussion. I have a greater confidence that a new proposal could make it there.

But for one-off events, decisions have to be made in a couple of days max, and if one or two Australian editors are up against a flood of American, Canadian, British editors, etc, saying "never heard of it", "not significant to enough people", etc, etc, an item doesn't stand a chance. Our not voting policy effectively goes out the door and the masses win every time. To promote such items you would need to get a few more supporters, and really highlight the need for quality discussion, and not voting. On the latter point, I've sometimes felt that any post on any item which says something like "Support - per X" (or "Oppose - ....") should be treated as nothing more than a vote, not a useful contribution to discussion, and instantly deleted. HiLo48 (talk) 07:21, 1 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Now, for your education, on the football front in ITN/R, there's something called the Barassi Line which separates the Australian population roughly in half, with those to the south and west being obsessed with Australian football, and the two eastern states loving Rugby league. Each group can be quite contemptuous of the other's favourite code. Rugby union is also of some interest in the latter area, but not as big.

As for events of cultural significance, leave it with me. I shall mull it over. HiLo48 (talk) 07:21, 1 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Please do. I would certainly like to see more Australian things posted. --ThaddeusB (talk) 15:48, 1 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that supports and opposes without rationales should be given limited weight, but "per [another user]" is a reason, and stops several users repeating the same point over and over. Good luck getting more Australian stories posted, would be interesting. 85.167.109.26 (talk) 16:07, 1 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is that cultures heavily represented here will inevitably have a lot more "per [another user]" posts than smaller ones. So long as I see Admin closes containing words to the effect of "a lot more oppose/support posts than the other", accepting "per [another user]" posts simply reinforces the existing systemic bias, and I say to myself "What's the point of trying?". Such comments from closing Admins appear almost every day, and they get very cross when I suggest that they're just counting votes, but I'm afraid I don't see it any other way. We should always and virtually only ever be looking at the quality of posts, not the quantity. HiLo48 (talk) 23:03, 1 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but how does one assess a quality argument when ITN is essentially just about opinion? I mean you can discount a few obviously low quality !votes, but beyond that one will generally see arguments they agree with being "high quality" and those they don't as "low quality". You make a good point about editor numbers, of course. However, I would like to think a majority of the ITN regulars are fair enough to evaluate most items honestly (perhaps I'm wrong). There are exceptions - you probably know who they are as well as I a do - who exhibit strong "yes US, no others" or "yes UK, no others" biases. Those votes can be given little weight, but after that I think numbers have to enter into a decision to post or not. To completely ignore numbers is a license to supervote.

Of course US items do attract an unusually large number of "occasional voter" supports. (In fairness, they also attract an unusual number of occasional voter opposes.) That can and should be taken into account. I don't know if it often is, but I do not think it is any easier to get a US item posted than an average item (UK maybe). The discussions tend to be a lot longer and more contentious, sure, but most vigorously opposed US items do not end up getting posted. --ThaddeusB (talk) 01:39, 2 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Perfectly agree with your last sentence, my point is that "per a high-quality argument" is equivalent to the high-quality argument, i.e. "User:Example makes a good argument, and I'm going to recommend the course of action because I substantially agree with the bulk of what s/he said". Of course, weak arguments (e.g. I like it) should be given limited or no weight, as should a "per" of such arguments. 85.167.109.26 (talk) 23:41, 1 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That post doesn't address the massive numerical bias in favour of some cultures, nor the Admins saying "a lot more oppose/support posts than the other". It's the combination of all these factors that kills nominations from smaller cultures. And it really does kill them stone dead. HiLo48 (talk) 23:52, 1 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If the majority uses valid arguments or agrees with valid arguments they have consensus and the item will get posted, regardless of whether it "really" merits it or not. Anyway, I don't think opposing US (or UK, Australia etc.) items on grounds of geography increases the chance of posting a similar event related to a smaller country. Of course, you should oppose if you find that the event is not noteworthy enough. 85.167.109.26 (talk) 10:43, 2 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You have just used majority as part of a definition of consensus. That's mixing up voting and consensus seeking. They are NOT the same thing. And we're not supposed to vote here. (Despite the sad fact that a lot of closing Admins at ITN mention the number of support and oppose posts. That depresses me too.) But of course I agree that we shouldn't play tit for tat games on a geographical basis. I'm not sure from that post exactly what your own total position is. Have you read my post below? I'd be interested in anyone else's thoughts. HiLo48 (talk) 11:01, 2 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In short, a clear majority based on strong, valid arguments is sufficient for consensus as consensus is not unanimity. A clear majority based on flawed, invalid or unsustainable arguments is insufficient for consensus as consensus is not based on voting. 85.167.109.26 (talk) 11:44, 2 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, that's pretty close to how I think it should work. I wish it always did. HiLo48 (talk) 11:48, 2 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There's a nomination at ITN for Jean Stapleton. It's pretty obvious that's going to be posted, and I have no strong objection. I've even helped improve her article. But what goes through my head every time I look at that thread is that it would be much harder for an Australian actress whose fame depended really only on one Australian TV show, even if that actress had won dozens of Logies. (Yes, I know that most here won't have a clue what they are, but that's part of my point.) It would be even worse if that show was a copy of an American show, as Stapleton's was a copy of a British show. I don't think I'd even bother nominating the person. I would only get one or two other Australians interested, because that's how many hang around ITN, and the opposes in the form of "Who?" would be overwhelming. I don't have the energy to play that game. But do others think HiLo48 (talk) 06:40, 2 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Notable Australian actors and actresses should be posted to RD, in my opinion. 85.167.109.26 (talk) 11:44, 2 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

But how would we overcome the inevitable opposition from the masses? HiLo48 (talk) 11:48, 2 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

And what qualifies as notable? Is someone notable because they played a major character on Neighbours for a few years 25 years ago and did the odd guest appearance on various programmes thereafter? Where do we draw the line? It seems to me the person should be internationally famous or massively famous in her own country. Stapleton was neither. -Rrius (talk) 12:02, 2 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Deep down I probably agree with you about Stapleton, but there's an awful lot of American editors who simply cannot comprehend your perspective. Obviously, if Stapleton is notable, so would Ray Meagher be should we lose him too early, but the chances of most American editors supporting such a nomination would be non-existent, even though he won the Gold Logie! I don't see a way past that bias. HiLo48 (talk) 12:09, 2 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, notable in acting is "internationally famous or massively famous in [their] own country", or perhaps winning an Academy Award for Best Actor/Actress in a leading role. Therefore, I struggle to see sufficient notability in Stapleton's case and I won't support it. 85.167.109.26 (talk) 12:31, 2 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What I'm thinking right now is that if I made a post there agreeing with you, there would be immediate responses of the form "Typical HiLo anti-Americanism. He just hates everything about America." Shall I try and see if I'm right? HiLo48 (talk) 12:36, 2 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(Actually, it's late here. I'm off to bed. I'll watch to see developments by morning. Will Medeis have posted it anyway? Wouldn't surprise me.) HiLo48 (talk) 12:40, 2 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If you do, I sincerely hope you're wrong. 85.167.109.26 (talk) 12:42, 2 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Academy awards are only given for movies. The Emmys are the equivalent award for television, so to say someone who wins an Academy Award is "at the top of their field" and someone who wins an Emmy is not is a poor argument. Since the introduction of Recent Deaths, we have been able to post more deaths (implicitly lowering the bar even if some object to that terminology). I am quite confident if an Australian who won "dozens of Logies" was nominated they would pass easily with the current standards. We've had several Indian actors pass on notability grounds (but not necessarily quality grounds) recently, for example. --ThaddeusB (talk) 18:14, 2 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I hope both that you're right, and that I don't have to nominate any successful Australian actors dying any time soon. HiLo48 (talk) 22:10, 2 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

And I was wrong and right about the Jean Stapleton ITN nomination. It has been posted, but not by Medeis. I still don't see justification, nor proper response to the opposes, just bullying style and dishonest "the Opposes don't follow policy", so my respect for our processes there has diminished even more. Why should I bother? HiLo48 (talk) 22:24, 2 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

But Medeis has scored a spectacular own goal in the Scripps nomination by writing "vote is 9 to 8 in favor", and then continuing with a belittling commenting about "most of the opposes..." This editor is an insulting, loose cannon. HiLo48 (talk) 22:32, 2 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Scripps discussion is a disaster for a variety of reasons, but I'm not sure what you mean about Stapleton. I see a minor debate over how to determine if someone is worthy of posting (i.e. follow media coverage or not), an answering of your question, and a difference of opinion about where the bar for being important enough is. I don't see anyone saying "opposes don't follow policy" in that nomination. --ThaddeusB (talk) 23:00, 2 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I guess we get to test my theory earlier than expected, or would you consider this one too obvious to count as a test of a more accepting RD? --ThaddeusB (talk) 04:32, 3 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, it's kinda sad, but even more sadly, not really unexpected. I'd actually met Mandawuy, and a few members of his extended family - lots of musos - and he was younger than I am. Health issues are huge in Aboriginal communities. But this is a valid test for ITN, and seems to be passing with flying colours. Maybe a high profile one at this stage is good. HiLo48 (talk) 05:48, 3 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A beer for you!

I just came across this comment. If that doesn't deserve a beer I don't know what does. Drink up mate. Hot Stop 02:03, 3 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

LOL. Yes, I do laugh when I see how some people think they can advance the position of their political favourites. Here in Australia, our current Prime Minister, Julia Gillard, could be said to have broken a promise she made on a carbon tax before the last election. (There's even some debate about that.) But the opposition and some shock-jocks decided to call here a liar over it. That has led to the (not) absolutely hilarious habit among her sworn enemies of calling her Juliar. After the first couple of times, even those amused by it initially were surely no longer amused, but two and a half years later it still happens. Doubt if anyone will change their vote over it now. HiLo48 (talk) 02:55, 3 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Precious

"please stop wasting your time and ours"
Thank you for investing your time in greeting IPs and politely telling some "Please stop wasting your time and ours", for typo fixing and quality reverts, for working in this place although it is as it is, but challenging the status quo, - I wish you luck, you are an awesome Wikipedian!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:47, 11 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Someone has been editing as LoHi48

Someone has been editing as LoHi48. Obviously chosen with you in mind. I believe that it violates Wikipedia:Username policy. North8000 (talk) 12:51, 17 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah. Saw that. It's weird. Whoever it is has been editing quite a few of the same articles I have recently edited, with quite positive and constructive changes. Not sure how I should respond. HiLo48 (talk) 19:56, 17 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe you have a silent admirer who has been learning from you. :-) North8000 (talk) 20:23, 17 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have dropped a note at their talk page asking them to file for a change of name. While the name doesn't breach the WP:USERNAME policy as it stands, there is a potential for confusion, especially as you are editing similar areas. Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 23:57, 17 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks HiLo48 (talk) 02:24, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

And not heard from nor heard of again since Kim Dent-Brown's conversation way back then. Weird. HiLo48 (talk) 03:09, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Request for input in drafting potential guidelines

Hi. There are, at present, no particular clear guidelines for religious material here, or, for that matter, guidelines for how to deal with ideas in general, particularly those ideas which might be accepted as true by individuals of a given religious, political, or scientific stance. There have been attempts in the past to draft such guidelines, but they have quickly been derailed. I am dropping this note on the talk pages of a number of editors who I believe have some interest in these topics, such as yourself, and asking them to review the material at User:John Carter/Guidelines discussion and perhaps take part in an effort to decide what should be covered in such guidelines, should they be determined useful, and what phrasing should be used. I would be honored to have your input. John Carter (talk) 19:23, 23 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry For Being A F%^kup

Hi HiLo48,

I am writing to apoligise for being a total douche. I have actually taken active steps to fix and prevent users like my old self. I doubt our paths will cross again but if they do I hope for both of us that they are on friendly terms. Thanks for not being a total d^*k back to me and helping me more understand this place. Cheers bud — Preceding unsigned comment added by TatRattis (talk) 03:01, 7 July 2013

That's cool. Thanks for thinking of posting here. HiLo48 (talk) 22:20, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

ITN

Considering how close you came to a topic ban before (I opposed it), you might want to watch edits and summaries like this one. μηδείς (talk) 22:59, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for proving the truth of something I wrote on my User page some time ago. It's more acceptable to many here for editors to write utterly nonsensical, stupid, dishonest, ill-informed bullshit than to even hint at a naughty or rude word. I do wish the niceness police cared just a little more about the actual quality of this encyclopaedia, rather than making everyone conform to some officially undefined but bloody obvious conservative, middle American politeness. (Although ignoring reality and what others tell them, and writing utter tripe, is surely not very nice. HiLo48 (talk) 02:55, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What the hell is wrong with me?

Excuse me, I'm not the dumb one you stupid retard. You are the one who is against progress on Wikipedia. Three other user other than myself have tried to edit pages of Spouses of Prime Ministers, but like I said, if you don't get your way, you block people from editing. I am new to Wikipedia so i do not know how to block people, but you should be banned without an expiry date for editing because you revert progress and do it your own way, and block others from editing when they try to contribute. You are arrogant, rude, disruptive, stupid, narrow minded and disgusting and instead of sitting at home waiting to revert peoples changes back to your way, you should get a job you lazy mutt. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hellomynameisandrew19991999 (talk • contribs) 06:00, 20 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

ROTFLMAO! That's the best abusive post I've had in weeks. HiLo48 (talk) 06:06, 20 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Like ツ Jenova 20 ^(email) 08:30, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well played

Hello H. Regarding this post all I can say is very well done! I hope that we didn't get too out of line for a ref desk question but I appreciated your post anyway. Cheers and have a great week. MarnetteD | Talk 04:14, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Martin Flanagan

Recently was directed to this article by Martin Flanagan, a countryman of yours. I was struck by his writing on a fairly obscure American, his various musings, and his thoughtful conclusion, which made me cast a virtual glance your way. Looking at his Wikipedia article, it seems a bit on the thin side. I might try to improve it a bit, and I thought you might like to join me, if you have a bit of time. Best wishes, Jus da fax 20:29, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds like a good idea. As a regular reader of The Age, I'm aware of him, but can't say I know much about him. I respect his writing. The Age is an excellent newspaper although, like many today, it's fading because of the web. I've put the article on my Watchlist, and will look around. HiLo48 (talk) 22:03, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It appears he mostly writes soccer (or "footy" ...really? I am so out of it...) articles. I read one that touched me about a "doorman" who was dying that I found brilliant. Anyway if there are any overviews of his writing career I haven't found one yet. Jus da fax 22:32, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ha. You have just confronted one of Australia's greatest linguistic confusions (and confrontations). There are four sports played professionally in Australia (and at least two others played at a non-professional level) that are called "football" by at least some of their fans some of the time. In Melbourne, where Flanagan is based, and in Tasmania, his "other" home, it means Australian football. (Although some obsessive soccer fans will argue that point until death. If you have a few hours to spare, try to comprehend the discussion at Talk:Soccer in Australia#Requested move. But a warning, parts of it are not pretty.)

But back to Flanagan, yes, I've been reading his material for decades, but know almost nothing of his background. Obviously not a very public person. Just a bloody good writer. HiLo48 (talk) 22:46, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Despite clearly being his publisher's promo page, there's a bit of factual stuff here. HiLo48 (talk) 01:02, 11 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Western Sydney Wanderers FC

I don't understand why your undid my edit. I have not changed the article in regards to the discussion on naming. I did it to simply improve the article. You are misunderstanding. I did not change the name "soccer". It still remained on the article since you change it in this edit and again in this edit (which I personally thought was ignorant and lacking on your part). Please allow me to improve the article with respect to the discussion on naming, as I previously did.--2nyte (talk) 08:41, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm glad you're admitting that you don't understand. I am truly having trouble getting you to comprehend many of the issues around the soccer/football name discussion. I'm not sure how I can dumb it down any more for you. HiLo48 (talk) 10:33, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

On a related note, don't you find it strange that the Americans haven't tried to war over Football team yet and change it to American Football? Missed opportunity...especially since the current article is unsourced...Thanks ツ Jenova 20 ^(email) 11:32, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah. Only became aware of that article today. Not too bad for an unreferenced piece. Surprisingly balanced. Wikilinking each of the different sports would at least (hopefully) give us confirmation of those numbers in a team in each sport. HiLo48 (talk) 11:47, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'll leave that to you since the entire topic makes me boredgasm. Out of interest though, do you have a to-do list tucked away somewhere? I'm interested in what you're working on...Thanks ツ Jenova 20 ^(email) 12:34, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the compliment, but I'm not organised well enough to have a list. I tend to do a lot of vandalism patrolling and incompetence driven editing. I see a lot of the latter on sports related articles. Not just soccer ones, but they tend to lead the pack on the latter criterion. Far too often they contain appalling grammar and spelling, pure fan cruft and, at times, blatant lies about a team's or a player's achievements. That way, from time to time I see an article that needs virtually a complete rewrite. I've also realised that by taking on others' stuff-ups and bullshit, I antagonise a lot of editors. That leads to at least some of the confrontations I'm told I get involved in far too often. But someone has to take on the clowns around here. HiLo48 (talk) 21:54, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, as long as you're not being made a sccapegoat for other u=issues around here by anyone. Enjoy your sport articles and vandalism ツ Jenova 20 ^(email) 23:46, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Football in Australia

Hey. I've had a crack at re-writing the article. I mostly drew in content from other articles either higher up or lower up including [[Sport in Australia}}, Women's assocation football in Australia, Women's sport in Australia, and Women's Australian rules football. I also went and looked for sources to better explain the terminology, removed sections that did not flow or were duplicated, changed some of the organization, etc. If you could take a look at it to make sure it now looks uniquely different enough from the other articles referenced, has an organization that makes a bit more sense, looks general enough in terms of focus on the various codes, that would be really appreciated. I do not necessarily see myself coming back to edit it soon. (I say, but I could be wrong about my time and interest.) --LauraHale (talk) 07:25, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Commenting here... Can you go through some of those edits? The explanations sound reasonable in theory but looking at them specifically, they have a number of problems like including additions of unsourced information, changing the meaning of text so that it is no longer supported by the source, adding information that is patently not supposed by the added source, and removing content that contextualizes codes on a historical and regional level. His approach to it that the only content that should be in there is material that applies to all football in Australia is hugely problematic for me, because the body of work on Australian football (all codes) does not approach it this way. The academic work make it clear that football is not a cohesive thing where things parallel each other and one thing can lead to understanding another aspect of football in the country. The approach for football in this way is very much synthesis and original research. I'm pretty much at the end of my rope with this, because it feels like a situation where a particular point of view pushers keep hammering and hammering and hammering and wearing people down until I just want to throw up my hands and go "You know, fuck neutrality. Fuck what the sources say. Fuck accuracy. Fuck it all. I cannot deal with this continual hammering away until we get what we want and if you want that, then go for it. I won't stop you." And yeah. :/ --LauraHale (talk) 15:16, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Commendable restraint

How hard was it not to add other, more colorful, adjectives to the edit summary? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 23:58, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Though that rant did contain some original work I thought, suggesting that the moon race was "an attempt to distract men from destroying our world with war". Nice. HiLo48 (talk) 00:02, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Everyone loves conspiracy theories. That wasn't the best argument i've seen against the moon landings, but it was interesting. More importantly to me - why are you watching that article HiLo48? I'm interested now ツ Jenova 20 ^(email) 15:53, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a mature aged Australian who was pretty obsessed with the moon landings. I know a couple of people who did some work for the NASA communications systems in Australia at the time of Apollo 11. You may be aware that the Armstrong "One small step..." speech was actually first received in Australia because of where the moon was at the time. There were several dozen Australians involved. That these guys are part of a conspiracy (along with thousands of others in the US and around the world) is incomprehensible. After several career moves I'm now teaching Science, Mathematics and IT in high school. I see the conspiracy theorists as threatening decent education on those fronts. (Obviously "decent education" has already gone missing for them.)

Conspiracy theories are the only way for some of these people to get the attention they lack. The best way to beat them back is with a well reasoned argument. I commend you on that front.

Also, i can't remember what it was called but there was a show where they replicated all the experiments, tests, walking, and pretty much everything from the moon landings in a warehouse. If not for the thousands of people involved it would have been pretty convincing stuff and a real possibility that the moon landings could have been faked.

I'm still under the belief that the Loch Ness Monster was an elephant trunk though ツ Jenova 20 ^(email) 09:48, 12 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is my favourite Loch Ness Monster, on a salt lake bed in South Australia. HiLo48 (talk) 10:29, 12 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That's one hell of a rip off! I could build my own for free. I won't because the only place i could store it is on the roof, and the council won't like that...

Thanks ツ Jenova 20 ^(email) 11:03, 12 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

My outburst

Regarding my outburst at you at the Ref desk yesterday, I know we don't always get along well at the ref desk, but I was out of line in my comment. I want to apologize for that. I've noticed I've done that a few times (not just at you). I've been stressed out lately and I'm venting it here too often. Accordingly I'm going to cool off a bit on Wikipedia for a little. Just thought I owed you an apology. Shadowjams (talk) 22:50, 19 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, that's cool. I respect that post a lot. HiLo48 (talk) 23:35, 19 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Barnstar

		The Special Barnstar
		For frequently making me smile at the RefDesks, and this morning in particular for making me snort tea through my nose all over the bedroom when reading this thread. Karenjc (talk) 07:34, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Some people should live in a bubble, without internet or human contact if so easily offended. Swearing is a wonderful gift to humanity when used properly...ツ Jenova 20 ^(email) 10:19, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

:-) North8000 (talk) 11:03, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a bit of a student of people taking offence. Choosing to be offended by "bore the shit out of..." guarantees that one will be pretty frequently offended. I do wonder what harm such people think is being done. I chose to do some vineyard labouring a few years back (I live in a wine region), and was chastised by my fellow workers for not swearing enough! They were a great bunch of people. Did tend to call a spade a fucking shovel though. My state government here in Australia has had a very successful, long lived road safety campaign built around the saying "bloody idiot". Should I be offended? HiLo48 (talk) 11:47, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No, of course not. There is a world of difference between being offended and choosing to take offence, and another light-year between choosing to take offence and erecting dayglo safety barriers around the "offending" object in question, to alert unwitting passers-by to the fact that they, too, may be exposed to the perilous choice as to whether or not to take offence. It's all bollocks, really. Oops. - Karenjc (talk) 11:57, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Like - Better than any explanation I could think of. Thanks ツ Jenova 20 ^(email) 12:00, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wondering....................

Over the past month and a bit I've nominated the deaths of both Keith Dunstan and Chopper Read as recent deaths at Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates. Neither was posted.

Neither was rejected either. They just dropped off the end of the nominations page with no action.

Both these people were very well known to Australians.

Although they received some silly objections, like Medeis saying that a one line update saying that a person who the article already told us had a fatal liver disease had finally died wasn't enough (dunno what else one could possibly write), they both received several good support posts.

My current impression is that there was simply no interested administrator available to post them. So nominations that didn't involve popular Americans or soccer players simply died through lack of interest from those who can do something about it.

So, how do we fix this? Can we fix it? Is it worth trying? HiLo48 (talk) 02:34, 19 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

HiLo48 comments

Among the many nasty comments directed at me was your suggestion that I give up. I am leaving Wikipedia and your outbursts are indeed a factor. So LOL and do all the immature posts that are a trademark of what, in, my opinion, is going wrong with Wikipedia. Do hope you take care and try to be calm.Patroit22 (talk) 22:04, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Patroit - you came to Wikipedia with a very obvious POV, that you wanted to impose here. To you it's obvious that Julian Assange and Chelsea Manning are evil people, and you believe that the world needs to be told this. Wikipedia cannot take such a position. It must state facts as found in independent, reliable sources. Your technical approach to editing here was also problematic. You argued that well established guidelines on editing did not apply to you. I saw too much arrogance, and a touch of incompetence and ignorance in your editing. If you cannot change those approaches, then you don't belong here. You're probably wise to leave. HiLo48 (talk) 01:59, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's not the first warning about the soapbox this week. The user doesn't like the trolling insinuation but is clearly still making noisy exits everywhere possible.

Patroit, you do not have to announce multiple times that you are leaving. If you want to leave then you have that option. It would be a shame to lose you, but until you get off your soapbox and end the cries for attention/noisy exits on multiple pages, then you are a disruption. It seems like you should be writing a blog, rather than trying to publish your theories here. Thanks ツ Jenova 20 ^(email) 09:34, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, we all have our biases, but it's our job to not display them here if possible. I was very proud during last year's US Presidential campaign to be accused by fans of both major candidates of supporting the other side, after removing bullshit from both sides. I'm certain that Patroit thinks I'm some sort of pinko, whale hugging socialist, simply because I opposed his blatant right wing POV pushing, but I can live with that. HiLo48 (talk) 10:05, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You can't please everyone and it would be foolish to try. Never heard of a "pinko" though. What is that? ツ Jenova 20 ^(email) 10:32, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A little bit reddish. HiLo48 (talk) 10:35, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Reddish? Are we going towards the word "wimp"? Thanks ツ Jenova 20 ^(email) 10:38, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, no. It's the kind of red McCarthy was after. HiLo48 (talk) 10:39, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Eh? I think i'm more confused now than when i started... ツ Jenova 20 ^(email) 10:42, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

OK, "pinko" = slightly red = communist inclined. HiLo48 (talk) 10:43, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

We even have an article about it ... and of course McCarthyism. With our long-time socialist leanings, the whole country of Canada was pretty much considered a haven of pinkos. ES &L 11:29, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I get it now =D

Don't forget i'm in the UK. We don't hear about the "Communist threat" on a daily basis like the Americans do. Thanks ツ Jenova 20 ^(email) 12:34, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(added later) That changed / ended about 25 years ago. North8000 (talk) 14:07, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Talk about soapboxing. The comments by you two above are the poster child for such disruptive posts. I will decide when I leave . it will probably be when you tone down your comments on my posts. Understand?Patroit22 (talk) 13:00, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Even the dreadful Daily Mail doesn't talk about Communists much North (Maybe they don't want to reveal that they share a lot of the same ideals).

Patroit, with that post you have demonstrated that you do not know what WP:Soapbox means. Might also want to look "disruption" up in a dictionary too. You just showed an example of it in your post but don't appear to know what it is. Take Kim Dent-Brown's advice. Thanks ツ Jenova 20 ^(email) 14:12, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

{outdent} Jenova, it was a big deal in the US when the USSR (and others secondarily) was considered a major threat. (i.e. "Communism" meant more USSR, China and others uniting to take over the world, not a form of government). With all of the changes that have occurred (especially USSR & China) it's no longer considered a big threat or issue in the US. North8000 (talk) 14:59, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm well aware of what Communism is North. It's just never mentioned in the media I read, nor is it generally considered a threat. I imagine this is more a concern for Fox News and Republicans than for Europeans an Brits. That could be left over tension from the Cold War and Cuban Missile Crisis, but i don't really have any interest in speculating. Thanks ツ Jenova 20 ^(email) 18:56, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I know that you knew that. What it appeared that you didn't know is that it has become rare in the US to hear about any communist threat from anywhere including Fox News or Republicans. North8000 (talk) 19:08, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, i'm working off what i occasionally see on tv and stereotypes. I don't live in the US after all so i have no idea how much of this is accurate.

I imagine the average American is like that of the Simpsons? No? Thanks ツ Jenova 20 ^(email) 19:11, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Like in any country, we're quite varied and so I can't think of there being any representation of an average American. But thee are lots of people here like Lisa, Marge, Homer and Bart who, are, of course, all very different. :-) North8000 (talk) 19:27, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Damn, no Ned Flanders? I liked that god-botherer ツ Jenova 20 ^(email) 21:59, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

We also have plenty of Neds. Haven't seen any Crusties yet though. But we do have the SUV's he advertises though - Cannyoneros. "Forty foot long, 2 lines wide, sixteen tons of American pride" North8000 (talk) 12:27, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Your trump card

For next time you attract a troll or POV warrior. Thanks ツ Jenova 20 ^(email) 19:31, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

LOL. I can just imagine how some of my typical enemies, conservative, Bible bashing Americans, would take that. Not terribly well. HiLo48 (talk) 22:54, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Enemies? You don't have a twat list on a dartboard? I fixed the link as it broke. Someone got offended and they took it down (The irony). Thanks and have a nice night (or day, depending on what tie it is there). ツ Jenova 20 ^(email) 23:13, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I find that some of those who hate me (in the Christian "Love thy neighbour" way of course"), tend to come and go fairly rapidly. They probably discover Conservapedia and find it a nicer place for them. They wouldn't have to think there. HiLo48 (talk) 23:19, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think religion rots the brain. Can't remember who authored it, but there was a study showing the deeply religious had a lower IQ than secular individuals. If you've spent much time around god-botherers, you can see for yourself quickly that reason and logic are not optional to sign up to their brand of cult. Thanks ツ Jenova 20 ^(email) 08:34, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion at ANI

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.

Who wrote that? (Is it more incompetence from Collingwoodwhatever?) HiLo48 (talk) 03:07, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

And now my old stalker Pete/Skyring has chimed in with one of his usual holier-than-thou, ignoring everything I wrote, pieces, delighted with the chance to attack me again. And he forgot to indent it! Hilarious that those who hate me persistently show such incompetence. LOL. HiLo48 (talk) 03:54, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I forget a lot of things in my senior years, but i didn't forget to indent my comment. I was responding to Collingwood, not you. Nor do I hate you - I wish you all the best and hope that you may learn and prosper. Cheers. --Pete (talk) 04:04, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Piss off stalker! HiLo48 (talk) 05:51, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No no sorry that was me who posted this not Pete. I'm terrible at remembering to post my signature.--Collingwood26 (talk) 04:03, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Also nobody hates you HiLo48--Collingwood26 (talk) 04:04, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

And you still can't bloody well indent!!!!!!!!!!!!! A little competence may have avoided a lot of this drama, but you clearly don't learn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HiLo48 (talk) 05:51, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Edit summary

Even without looking at the diffs or the particular edit or the edit history of that other contributor, I thought this was extraordinary [2]. – S. Rich (talk) 04:02, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

And that's where one of Wikipedia's biggest problems lies. You DIDN'T look at what I was responding to. Why not? Is moronic POV-pushing better than a little swearing? Don't try to separate the two. Without the former the latter would not have occured. If you condemn me, and don't do or say anything about the incompetence and irrational behaviour that started it all, YOU too are a huge part of the problem. HiLo48 (talk) 05:55, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's not "a little swearing". It's the personal attacks that are the problem. Hurting and humiliating other editors is not the way to win an argument. Not unless you believe in ad hominem as an effective tool. We all make mistakes, we all have differences of opinion. But we don't all lash out at others when we are challenged. Why not contact your mentor, ask him for advice? --Pete (talk) 06:22, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There is not a lot of WIkiLove between you two. I suggest you both stay away from each other here and on the drama pages. The discourse is not doing you or the community any good. – S. Rich (talk) 06:33, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I just had an edit conflict posting my standard response to Pete - Piss off stalker! He is already not supposed to be engaging with me, but was the first to respond at the ANI thread and here! Can't help himself, and never suffers consequences. I know a convicted stalker. One who has done jail time for it. Pete's obsession with me reminds me a lot of that person. HiLo48 (talk) 06:38, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

October 2013

You have been blocked from editing for a period of 1 month for making personal attacks. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions. If you think there are good reasons why you should be unblocked, you may appeal this block by adding the following text below this notice: {{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}. However, you should read the guide to appealing blocks first. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 06:45, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

LOL. So the Wikipedia community would prefer to have an incompetent, irrational POV pusher editing Wikipedia rather than me. OK. HiLo48 (talk) 07:24, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think anybody ever said that. The community has said "regardless...every editor deserves an environment where they are not belittled or personally attacked". You know as well as anyone that there are proper methods of dealing with edits/editors that you feel are performing incompetent, irrational, or POV edits ...and none of those permit personal attacks ES &L 08:34, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't seen any "proper" method that works. Pete/Skyring has been stalking me, against explicit instructions from the community, and posting POV-bullshit for years. Collingwoodwhatever has been demonstrating incompetent, irrational POV-pushing for years. Both have done just that today, and experienced no consequences. The community is happy to have them, but not me. Great community. HiLo48 (talk) 08:54, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This block isn't about the behaviour of the other editors involved here, it is about the personal attacks that you made, as noted at the ANI discussion. If other editors have caused problems, they may be sanctioned for those separately, but that doesn't affect the fact that you violated the no personal attacks policy. This would be a good time to read WP:NOTTHEM if you haven't done so already. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 09:14, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Bullshit. You say they MAY be sanctioned, but they aren't, are they? That's a pointless platitude. So what's the point of ME trying to make this a better place? It's actually always my goal. And clearly not yours. Because "Pete/Skyring has been stalking me, against explicit instructions from the community, and posting POV-bullshit for years. Collingwoodwhatever has been demonstrating incompetent, irrational POV-pushing for years. Both have done just that today, and experienced no consequences. The community is happy to have them, but not me." You really need to look at the total sequence of events here, over the years, and not just the naughty words today. While that's the easy thing to police, and the most common approach by Admins, it will never make this a better place. Don't worry, this isn't really an attack on you. I'm just expressing my total frustration at the appalling justice system we have here. Incompetents, stalkers and POV pushers effectively have free reign, and someone who really cares about this place and shows his frustration gets silenced. It happens all the time. Personally I couldn't give a fuck about a block. It just reinforces my view of the appalling way this place works. So I feel stronger. And I have plenty else positive to do with my life. But I do want Wikipedia to be a better place. Pretty sure you and the other Admins don't really, based on the evidence of what you've all chosen to ignore. All you care about is rude words. Other crap can continue forever in your view. That makes this a far worse place. HiLo48 (talk) 09:44, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Further, if Admins had done their job properly and eliminated the perpetual bad behaviour (albeit no naughty words) of editors seemingly incapable of learning correct editing procedures, such as Collingwoodwhatever and Pete/Skyring, none of today's problems would have occured. In some peoples' eyes I overreacted, but if there had been nothing to overreact to, Wikipedia would now be a much better place. While Admins think an overreaction to bullshit is a bigger problem than the bullshit itself, there probably isn't a place here for me. HiLo48 (talk) 10:06, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I dont' see any RFC/U about either of the 2 editors you mention, and although I don't monitor AN/ANI as much as I used to, I don't immediately recall any recent filings there on those editors either. Admins cannot randomly show up like Batman seems to do. Unless you filed a complaint, how does anyone know there's a real problem. You're the only person with the power to prevent your own over-reaction ... by bringing poor behaviour to people's attention, admins can help prevent the bullshit that leads to it. You can't blame others if you didn't take the necessary steps. Now, if you can SHOW me a diff where you specifically told ANY editor to stay off your talkpage (it sure better not be in an edit summary), and if they have returned for any reason OTHER than to notify you about an AN/ANI or other administrative filing, I'll pick up that mantle on showing WP:HARASS on your behalf ES &L 10:48, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've already said many times and in many places that I won't report people at AN/I. It's not a place of justice. It's a place where all the haters get a chance to pile on and abuse an accused, with no consequences for lies and bullshit. It's happened to me. I don't want it to happen to others. Admins saw bad behaviour from the others today, and did nothing. And I really can't be bothered finding that diff you request. It's true. Pete/Skyring knows it's true. You'll notice that he hasn't denied it in all the bullshit today. Just kept on stalking. If Justice requires ME to go to the trouble of dredging the past because someone else can't behave, then forget it. HiLo48 (talk) 10:58, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

OK ES&L, I was sitting here bored, and found this. Believe me now? Will you block him forever? The stalking has been going on forever. HiLo48 (talk) 11:14, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

HiLo48, if you have evidence you want to submit about the other editors involved here, in the form of diffs etc., then I would be happy to copy across your post to ANI so that others can scrutinize it. I would also be very interested to look at such evidence myself, and I may act on it if I find it compelling. You're the best-equipped editor to comment on this situation, seeing as you have been so closely involved with it, and your insights would be valued. Just because you are blocked doesn't mean that people won't take into account what you have to say. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 14:04, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

But I have to depend on the good will, interest, and preferences of someone who has already, in my view, looked at this in a very shallow way. As I've already said many times and in many ways, I have a busy life and don't have masses of time to keep digging up dirt on others. I don't really enjoy it either. and my attitude to how things are dealt with at ANI should be obvious to anybody. If you won't look wider yourself (there's plenty of evidence), I might as well give up now. HiLo48 (talk) 20:18, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

RfC/Us are designed to uncover dirt. You can't expect admins to jump in, without previous experience with editors and articles and all their intricate ins and outs, and figure it all out for themselves. RfC/Us may be toothless by themselves, but they can also be stepping stones toward sanctions, so that an admin is given the opportunity to look further than just at the various obscenities thrown around. Drmies (talk) 20:29, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm pretty sure the point is the two cases you describe (POV editing and abusive commenting) aren't or should not be connected as the only possible alternatives. Being abrasive is a personal choice not connected to content debates. Personally I though this outcome was inevitable, but feel free to call me a stalker or to swear at me and call me smug. I actually feel a sense of either sadness or pity, I'm not sure which as I feel you will either refuse to change or leave wikipedia and I feel Wikipedia would be poorer as a result. Obstinacy is admirable, but only to the point it becomes counter-productive. --Falcadore (talk) 09:22, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, but I don't need sympathy. Wikipedia does. HiLo48 (talk) 09:47, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

And now I see on ANI that the two above mentioned hypocrites, Collingwood... and Pete/Skyring the Stalker, who both aggressively condemned me at AN/I, and got me blocked, now don't want me blocked. LOL. Talk about irrational! And people want ME to report others at ANI! No way I'll inflict that kangaroo court on others. HiLo48 (talk) 10:47, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You will forgive me writing here HiLo48, but I notice ES&L's comment above "I don't immediately recall any recent filings there on those editors either..." Are you referring to filings at ANI? You would surely recall, ES&L, that I raised the issue of the tendentious editing of one of these (above named) editors at ANI less than a month ago? You must recall that you asked me to stop commenting at ANI because you felt it was making the situation with the editor worse. So, a complaint has been filed and there remains an unresolved problem with the contributions by one of these editors - arguably his editing appears to be the catalyst for this situation. I do think an opportunity to help that editor (monitoring, mentoring etc) was missed a month ago Nickm57 (talk) 12:23, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Nickm57. So we have Collingwood26 already identified as a blatant POV pusher, but allowed to continue, and I get into trouble for overreacting to his ongoing bullshit, while he continues to be allowed to stuff up Wikipedia. We have Pete/Skyring, from effectively the same political stable, instructed by an Admin to stay off my Talk page, and he repeatedly breaks that rule, continuing to stalk me all over Wikipedia. Sorry folks. There's no way I can promise to be nice to those irrational bigots. If you look at the ANI thread you will find I was not the only one to find Collingwood's thinking processes incomprehensible. We have rules about editors needing to be competent. I sincerely believe they both fail that requirement, and I cannot promise to pretend otherwise in future. I have called both these editors out on their POV crap before, and they can't deal with it without trying to get ME into trouble. Silencing the enemy, I guess. I cannot possibly be expected to put up with continuing nonsense from those two. If the Admins allow them free reign, and block me, what's the point of me sticking around? HiLo48 (talk) 12:57, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Irrational bigots, hypocrites ... stuff up Wikipedia; continued nonsense; ANI is a place where all the haters get a chance to pile on and abuse an accused, with no consequences for lies and bullshit; incompetents, stalkers and POV pushers effectively have free reign; I do want Wikipedia to be a better place. Pretty sure you (Stradivarius) and the other Admins don't really, based on the evidence of what you've all chosen to ignore. All you care about is rude words. Other crap can continue forever in your view." HiLo48, if you wish to constructively discuss this issue, or request an unblock, please do so here on your talk page in a civil manner. The discussion tone you're using is tendentious. I don't wish to make this sound rude, but with due respects to your situation, I have to mention that I shall revoke your talk page access if such tendentious talk continues. Please take care. Regards. Wifione ^Message 15:05, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I would stop if what I wrote above wasn't true. Extensive experience tells me it is. Many have agreed with me. You're welcome to try to convince me otherwise. Your post reads more like one more interested in silencing possibly genuine criticism than in truly making Wikipedia a better place. Situations like this need Admins with a far more open mind and an interest in broader investigation than in just preventing the posting of words they personally don't like. Cases like this are never simple, no matter how much you would like them to be. HiLo48 (talk) 20:18, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

But really, this is all just code for "I was provoked", or, to put it in schoolyard lingo you'd relate to, "But he started it". What you say about other editors may well be perfectly true, but (a) all you're willing to provide is your complaints but no evidence, and (b) that is not the issue that led to this current ban. The issue that led to this current ban is your calling another editor "you fucking moron" et al. That is never OK, not here, not in RL, not anywhere. No matter what the (claimed) provocation may be. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:36, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

And to continue the school-yard theme "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me". So long as admins continue to ignore the competence issues surrounding certain editors here and worry more, because it's easy, about a few bad words instead, by editors that actually do make a great deal of constructive edits, Wikipedia will continue to be ridiculed and justifiably so. This, despite the efforts of those of us actually interested in building the encyclopaedia. Sanctions such as HiLo48's excessive one month block only serves to further the interests of those that either by intent or sheer incompetence seek to (and actually do) disrupt the encyclopaedia. At most HiLo48's actions deserve a slap with a wet trout. I am utterly disgusted with the way this block has been imposed on an editor that really does add a lot of value to the project. The admin concerned should be ashamed. - Nick Thorne ^talk 21:08, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

... with the way this block has been imposed on an editor that really does add a lot of value to the project. That's not how it works. We can't deduct all the good stuff (of which I'm sure there's plenty) from the infractions and come up with a net "good editor" or "bad editor" rating. Editors, and human beings generally, have to take responsibility for each individual action; otherwise, the courts would be saying "Oh, as this is the first time you've ever brutally murdered anyone and have led a reasonably law-abiding life otherwise, we'll let you off with a warning this time". Huh? No, I don't think so, do you? Well, that's pretty much the gist of your argument. HiLo, for all the good he does, steps on way too many people's toes in the process. He has no time for those who don't see things his way, and in a collaborative project like this where consensus rules the day (and not "My way or the highway"), that is fatal. I do agree that a month seems excessive. Maybe it's a good thing he'll have some time to think about his general approach. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:33, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can make someone else feel happy or sad, which is literally the only thing that matters in this stupid world." Couldn't resist. Two wrongs don't make a right. Once Hilo48 understands that personal attacks are not a proper reaction, he should be unblocked and allowed to continue editing. And stop piling up the bad faith accusations - I don't think anyone here wants to damage Wikipedia. 209.255.230.32 (talk) 21:44, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There are definitely some who want Wikipedia to reflect their own, somewhat extreme political views. They may not see it as damage, but most of us surely do. If it's repeated, and supported by blatantly bigoted and irrational argument on the Talk page, with never a negative consequence, I will probably overreact again. HiLo48 (talk) 23:09, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the above comments Nick Thorne. And Jack, yes, I overreacted, no question, to appalling editing from an editor who probably shouldn't even be allowed to be posting here. There's are many good reasons to prohibit incompetent, POV pushing editors. The provocation they create is obviously one of them. We claim we do prohibit such behaviour, but if they don't use naughty words they effectively have free reign. If Wikipedia really had enforced its rules on competence and POV pushing in Collingwood's case, I wouldn't be in this situation. I'm not perfect, and will probably for the rest of my life continue to react to bullshit in ways that some here don't like. But if that bullshit shouldn't even exist on Wikipedia, I can't feel too bad about it. And you made a comment Pete/Skyring is fond of making. You suggested that I have trouble with people I disagree with. Not true. I can deal with any political view, as long as it's presented according to our rules. Repeated, undue, irrational POV-pushing is what tends to trigger my overreactions. During last year's US presidential election I was watching both Romney's and Obama's articles for vandalism. I was accused by supporters of both sides of being a supporter of the other. Now, I did happen to like the policies of one of those men much more than the other, but I was very proud it wasn't apparent. I've removed a lot of vandalism from Tony Abbott's and Liberal Party articles since the election, and I'm certainly a fan of neither. So, different views are fine. Persistent, irrational POV pushing isn't. HiLo48 (talk) 23:03, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

HiLo, I'll have a look, in the next hours/days, at the whole situation to see if a carefully phrased unblock could be granted. If you like. Drmies (talk) 23:10, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Meh. there's a lot of people here want me silenced because I call them out on their POV psuhing, so good luck with that. I must also say that my frustration continues, with lots of talk over at the ANI thread about what to do about Collingwood and Pete/Skyring's ongoing rule breaking, WITHOUT blocking them, as I have been. I am reinforced in my view that naughty words are seen by too many here as a worse crime than persistent irrational, incompetent POV pushing and stalking, BOTH after multiple warnings. WTF DO they have to do wrong to be blocked? Say fuck once? HiLo48 (talk) 23:18, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

See, I don't even know any of these people, so I can't really judge whether there's really a conspiracy against you whose goal is to shut you up. If you think I care more for naughty words than for other things, you know as little about me as I probably do about you--but at the very least that should tell you that your generalizations are incorrect. I didn't see that earlier thread (one can't see everything, and this is not a paid position) but I will have a look at it, if you like.

Up to you--you can maintain your "stupid admins always defend et cetera and simply block the ones who et cetera", and you will not be proven wrong, because who would lift a finger for you? Why would I? Or you could think that there's two sides to every coin, that maybe you're not always correct about the hopeless inefficacy of the system, and that maybe there would have been more productive things to say than "fuck you", and take that chance (the chance that you might have been at least partially incorrect). I'll leave it at that. Enjoy your evening, Drmies (talk) 23:39, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

OK, it may not be productive to swear, but it seems that nothing else is either. The provokers are still active. I overreacted to frustration. My frustration will obviously continue for reasons I've outlined above. I get blocked. Real, repeat disrupters don't. In fact, Admins go out of their way to find ways of managing them without blocking. I don't get it. Why the difference? Why should I not be frustrated? HiLo48 (talk) 01:06, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You could ask an admin to look into it, giving them some links and some information and stuff like that. Drmies (talk) 01:11, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That's too much like hard work. I'll probably just take a holiday. That'll keep the POV pushers and Admin hypocrisy out of my sight for a while. As I said above, the community doesn't want real attention on such trouble makers. It obviously doesn't know what to with do them.

Sure thing. But don't blame the community when it's you who is not helping me out, and don't blame hypocritical admins when I was just here on your talk page asking you three times (if I'm counting correctly) if I can help you. North, surely you can see what I was trying to do here. Enjoy the holiday, Drmies (talk) 03:04, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. And maybe my comment is not useful but felt I had to say it. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 03:08, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I hardly feel like being part of this place when the POV pushers and stalkers are allowed to keep going with no penalty. It's not a very pleasant thought being around them. At least Pete/Skring seems to have at least temporarily got the message, again, for the 28th time, to not post here. Sorry, but that man really is obsessed with me. And Wikipedia just tells him to stop it, and when he doesn't, just tells him to stop it again, and when he doesn't, just tells him to stop it again, and..... As for Collingwood, just not a rationally behaved person. Couldn't possibly predict what he'll do next. HiLo48 (talk) 04:42, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've had the pleasure of working on and off with HiLo48 on and off for about 4 years and we disagree on about 98% of everything. While I would consider most of the accusations / observations regarding HiLo48 here to be accurate, I consider the issues to be much more minor than others consider them to be. HiLo48 may rip people a new one but they do not mean people harm, do not engage in subtle viciousness, and do not "go after" people. I'd much rather have someone with nothing up their sleeve rip me a new one than deal with the much more clever viciousness and meaning harm to people that is commonplace in Wikipedia. I 'spose that that may not be relevant to the wiki rules, but those are my thoughts and I felt I should say that. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 01:29, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm in the same boat as N8000. This is really quite remarkable, even more so because it involves several admins for whom I have a great deal of respect. I suspect much of this might have to do with HiLo48 offending the American sensibilities of some who aren't used to language that we Australians consider ordinary casual vernacular. "You fucking moron" is about what I'd expect to receive if I got a pub trivia question wrong. I'm surprised this edit (to which that comment was in response) didn't elicit something more. That sort of political POV OR shouldn't be welcome here at all. It's worse because the author seems not to understand what is/was wrong with it. So HiLo made clear what was wrong with it in no uncertain terms. The author's response to being told (by an admin) that he was both wrong and at 3RR? "You are all picking on me!" What could HiLo have possibly achieved (for this project) by template-messaging an editor like that (again)? His talk page includes a note from me earlier this year when he was edit-warring over patently stupid things. He obviously hasn't improved his attitude since then and the edit-warring continues. One editor edit-wars (again) to include obviously problematic POV edits and is allowed to continue (nay, encouraged!) while the editor who called a spade a fucking spade gets blocked. I think the ship is pointing in the wrong direction on this one. Stalwart111 04:03, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Jeez. Now, FFS, we have a little love fest between Nil Einne and Stalker Pete in the ANI thread, saying I shouldn't talk about Pete here if I won't let him respond, and that Pete was just mistaken when he ignored his ban on posting here. If he WAS mistaken, it's absolute incompetence. The ruling was unequivical. Why Nil Einne believe's that crap from Pete is beyond me. And I have every right to talk about him here. I was asked to not fucking engage with him (nor he with me), and don't want to anyway. Discussions with him are absolutely pointless. He thinks the problem is that I disagree with his politics. I don't give a fuck what his politics are. What I disagree with is him letting his politics massively influence his editing here. But he cannot comprehend that. He also thinks pathetic platitudes about me seeing others points of view in my heart, and other such bullshit, will somehow make me a better person. Sorry, that ain't me. So Nil Einne, you are being sucked in. You don't know the whole picture. Note how quickly he posted in that thread which, of course, had nothing to do with him. THAT'S the problem here. He is an obsessed stalker. He cannot help himself. It was NOT an innocent mistake that he posted here. It was a breach of Wikipedia rules, one of many, and the Admins here just gently warn him, yet again. I do not understand his gentle treatment. HiLo48 (talk) 06:14, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and the obvious irony, of course. They're complaining about me discussing Pete the Stalker and not allowing him to respond, all at ANI where I can't respond, because Pete and his other overtly right wing mate Collingwood got me blocked! HiLo48 (talk) 07:13, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't agree with this block, as I say at ANI, and feel the length is startling. Suggest waiting a day or three and then file a brief and contrite appeal for a "time served" unblock or a reduction. It took me a long time to come around to respecting you, but you do indeed have my support and respect. I understand the frustration, believe me. Just try to cool down before posting, ol' buddy. My best to you and yours, Jus da fax 08:03, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Jusdafax. I appreciate your suggestion. But right now I don't have the mental energy to play here against the incompetent, irrational POV pushers and the Admins who defend and support their bullshit. They've won this battle. They've worn me out. I'm also far too honest submit a "a contrite appeal". I don't feel contrite in the slightest. Might see you guys in a month. Can't be sure right now. HiLo48 (talk) 01:01, 1 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

PS: Anyone want to have a word over at Wikipedia:WikiProject Editor Retention. It's an area I've tried to contribute constructively to in the past, but right now, for obvious reasons, cannot. HiLo48 (talk) 01:01, 1 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hope to see you around and stronger than ever when the month is up HiLo. Ever thought of running for Admin btw? Thanks ツ Jenova 20 ^(email) 15:24, 1 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

LOL. Yes. Trouble is, if I'd been an Admin for the past couple of years I would have permanently blocked both Collingwood and Pete the Stalker, for incompetence, repeated POV-pushing, and ignoring warnings (actually a sign of incompetence), and done the same with several other Admins for bigotry, trigger fingers, and failing to do their job properly in not blocking Collingwood and Pete/Skyring. Pretty sure I don't fit the ultra-conservative mould that most Admins seem to belong to. I simply cannot conceive of the clique within the Admin class who I think are a big part of Wikipedia's troubles ever accepting me. HiLo48 (talk) 21:00, 1 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Start an RfC/U, or two, when you come back. My offer above still stands. And please don't put me in that "ultra-conservative" category: if you mean that in the way Western politics means it, I take that as an offense, pal. Take it easy, Drmies (talk) 15:21, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No, the "ultra-conservative" wasn't meant politically. And I did use the word "most" rather than "all". It's more to do with moral values, such as clearly thinking that one swear word does more harm here than ongoing displays of incompetence, disruption, POV pushing and defiance of warnings. That's certainly not the case where I live. An occasional, well placed bit of swearing is quite common from most people, in all circles. But even politically America is far more to the right than most other western nations. The more right wing of Australia's two major political parties is well to the left of the Democrats on most issues. As for an RfC/U, no way. Pete the Stalker, who has found me a thorn in the side of his POV pushing for years and so wants to get rid of me, set up one of those about me a while ago. Again, all it did was provide yet another platform for like minded editors to throw more shit at my name. Nothing came of it. It's another bad tool. I guess it's inevitable that Admins will want to believe that the tools they sought the right to use do the job well, but they don't. HiLo48 (talk) 21:10, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate that you care about Wikipedia. Unfortunately, we are resource limited in many ways, and administrators are one of them. The active admin:editor ratio is 635:121,641 (about 1:200). So the in depth, looking deep into background causes of behavioral disputes I see you advocating for is rarely going to happen. It's not true that "AN/I doesn't work" anymore than it's true "AN/I does work" ... it's in large part a matter of framing and small part serendipity. If an editor opens a thread that has few words, many diffs, and the diffs are righteous they're likely to get a reasonably good response.

Part of the Wikipedia experience is interacting with others, which inevitably means it's a political environment. You've taken the time to learn how do arbitrary things like sticking <ref> </ref> around sources for articles. Why "ref" instead of "source"? Why angle brackets instead of, I don't know, pound signs? I don't know, it's just an arbitrary thing someone made up long ago. Think of political niceties as part of the same arbitrary things. Things you just learn to do so you can focus on continuing to improve Wikipedia.

On the large scale, admins are very reluctant to encourage third party unblock requests because of the additional volume of stuff that would have to be waded through; most of the requests would not be as reasonable as what's currently present for your case at ANI. Better if you just post the unblock request: you already have most of the elements:

You apologized on ANI for the bad words -- with perhaps too much qualification, but apologized nonetheless.
You already pledged not to swear, regardless of how silly you think the Wiki stance on that is. So, to make your life easier (if you want), you can just copy / paste:

{{unblock|I apologize for the swearing and will try to refrain from doing so in the future ~~~~}}

NE Ent 12:13, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't rushed to reply to that. You see, I don't trust myself should a situation like the one in question arise again. It seems that the community already sees that it probably shouldn't have arisen this time. So I was reacting to something that shouldn't have happened. But it did. And I see no evidence that a similar thing can never happen again. And I cannot guarantee that I won't again feel incredibly frustrated, and again tell someone what I really think. If the community could guarantee that long-established bigots will not be allowed free reign, I would feel more confident in making such a commitment. But I doubt if it can. And the evidence is building. I know your suggestion contains wording that says I "will try" to not do it again. And I would try. But in the incident that started all this, as soon as I slipped up once in a situation that shouldn't have arisen, I was instantly blocked. No discussion. And no consequences (yet - days later) for the provocation. That editor is still free to post his bullshit. If the community won't/can't stop him (and others like him), am I free to call him what I really think of him, in language of my choice, and then say "I tried"? No. An editor like Mr. Stradivarius will again block me, feeling fully justified. So, thank you for the suggestion, but I don't see it as a solution on its own. Get Collingwoodwhatever out of the way, completely, forever, find more effective and rapid ways of eliminating other incompetent POV pushers, and it may have a chance of working. HiLo48 (talk) 11:29, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Auntie Bonita, AO

Bonita Mabo is a tiny stub at present. I'd like to get up to at least DYK level. Your thoughts? BTW, you are a ratbag. --Shirt58 (talk) 13:22, 1 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the compliment! I just clicked on the three references in that article. They're good. I'd be delighted to help extract some of the facts from there about Bonita, but right now I'm in no position to do so. (I assume you've seen the above thread.) The community would rather have incompetent, irrational POV pushers active than me. My naughty words apparently offend conservative Americans far more than the former. Good luck. It looks like a worthy project. HiLo48 (talk) 00:12, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

BTW - The bloke who got me blocked, Collingwoodwhatever, might want to help. He's a white supremacist. Doesn't think we should call people like Bonita Australian. Just the kind of editor that's always welcome. (Don't be in any doubt. He is!) HiLo48 (talk) 00:14, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

HiLo, could you provide a diff supporting the above assertion please, or delete it? Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 19:06, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oh dear. This is where Wikipedia's justice process become incredibly frustrating. I suppose one could argue about the definition of white supremacist, but how about looking at the whole thread Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive788#Collingwood26: concerns about POV-driven editing and extreme talk page posts, where he was let off with a warning, as usual. One diff I quickly picked up from looking at that thread is here. Don't have time to look for more of his nonsense right now. It should have been picked up by Admin as a fundamental part of his character ages ago, and had him thrown right out of Wikipedia forever. That thread obviously points to other trouble, but because he apparently doesn't ever swear, he gets the soft treatment. No itchy trigger fingers for him. His views should not ever be part of this place. Such bigots NEVER change and NEVER help here. HiLo48 (talk) 21:29, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not going to ask for diffs etc; you'll make this case in a more formal venue, I assume. But "it should have been picked up by an admin"--WTF? You think we screen new editors? Come on HiLo. You keep claiming not to have time or interest in productive things like RfCs or whatever, but you got time to throw out conspiracy theories. Sheesh. Drmies (talk) 01:20, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

While we're on the topic, that was pretty ridiculous. Drmies (talk) 01:29, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

My simple point was that this person had already been taken to AN/I. More than once. I pointed to one of those threads above. No action came from it. Again. Just acceptance of a promise to be good in future. Again. Promise broken. Again. Warned. Again. I've already said I see little point in taking people to AN/I. It's not a court of justice. It's a court of prejudice and piling on of lies and abuse, combined with trigger fingers for naughty words, but persistent procrastination by Admins for "civil" (i.e. non-swearing), but ongoing disruption, incompetence, and irrational behaviour. (As far as I'm concerned, such behaviour is very uncivil, but I seem to be a lone voice on that matter.)

And you say "that was pretty ridiculous". Do you think it's acceptable? I say it's not. It's bigotry. It's racist. It's stupid. It's a display of irrationality and incompetence. Do those sins EVER matter here? Or just naughty words? HiLo48 (talk) 02:40, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Some other editors at ANI have helpfully collated the evidence and provided some diffs which certainly look convincing. Seems the consensus at ANI is moving towards at least a topic ban for Collingwood26. I'm sure that won't convince you that ANI is ever worth a wet fart, but for myself I do believe it eventually gets there. It does require people to trawl through contributions and provide diffs but when they come it's much easier to take decisive action than when faced with generalised charges like "so-and-so is a racist/incompetent/POV pusher." Such charges are harder to make stick because they often require quite a bit of repeated evidence before the case is clear. Disruptive editing such as repeated swearing and the associated culture-bound assumption that "it it's OK in my culture, it ought to be OK in yours" is easier to spot as the examples tend to be more obvious. But it's almost never a single case of bad language except in the most egregious and aggressive cases. Blocks such as yours don't arise out of nowhere but only after repeated and escalating warnings. You may not like it (clearly you don't!) but you can't be surprised by the block. The question for you and the other editors is: can you each learn from your experiences? Anyone under a sanction which expires either learns not to repeat the behaviour (in which case the sanction never happens again) or they don't learn (in which case the sanction is likely to be repeated.) Which sort of editor are you? Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 20:46, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I've learnt a lot here. I've learnt some things about Wikipedia and some things about me. I CAN control my temper and frustration in normal, run-of-the-mill content disputes, but not in ridiculous situations like the in which I was placed. I was blocked for over-reacting to a situation you are now agreeing is not acceptable on Wikipedia. I don't trust myself to not do the aggressive swearing again in similar circumstances. As for me not providing enough details, that's a cop-out. Collingwood26 has been seen at AN/I before, in some cases quite recently. The crap that I've seen him allowed to continue posting began long before that, probably on the day he started here. Any serious investigator would have had no trouble finding examples when looking at his later, formally reported misdeeds. It didn't take me long when I looked. I detest taking cases to AN/I myself because of the way I've been treated there myself. Until you can control the pile-on of bullshit and lies that happens against non-mainstream editors (of which I am one) it won't ever be an attractive option. It's bullying of the worst kind in modern times. The freedom provided by the anonymity of the web to attack an enemy unethically and dishonestly. So, as I've now posted in both the threads above and below, I'm no Superman. I was confronted by misdeeds clearly now identified as unacceptable, not being handled effectively by the community. My frustration was at both. And the situation is STILL not resolved! (So my frustration still exists!) Similar events will obviously happen again, at least partly because I try to stop the bad postings here. I cannot guarantee that I will not again over-react when put in that or a similar situation. I'm just human. (And from a culture where swearing simply IS part of many people's behaviour in such situations.) Had my swearing been towards a well-behaved editor, all criticism of me would have been valid. It wasn't, and it wasn't. My swearing was directed towards a very poorly behaved editor the community was doing nothing about. Just delivering warning after warning after warning after warning after warning after warning.... Obviously pointless. Where was the escalation in Collingwood26's case? Then I swore at him. Now something might be done about him. So again, what you insist is unacceptable (the swearing) is actually, again, making this a better place. You haven't convinced me of much at all. All I know is that the trigger fingers are for naughty words, no matter what the circumstances, and the far worse, incompetent, irrational racism can insidiously go on forever. But those naughty words can actually achieve good things. I know you don't want that to be true, but it is, isn't it? (I didn't do it deliberately this time, but yet again, my view on what works here has been vindicated.) HiLo48 (talk) 22:56, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Interaction ban between Pete and me - Thank you

Thank you for that Drmies (and the others who contributed to the discussion.) I'm delighted with that outcome. In fact, I thought we already had an interaction ban in place. I was certainly trying to act on the basis that it was the case. Pete/Skyring removes negative comment from his talk page within hours of it appearing there, so I have no idea how to look back at where I got that idea from. I've certainly asked him to ~~piss off~~ go away from my talk page many times. HiLo48 (talk) 03:01, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and I guess that means that I have to acknowledge that Admins DO, at least at times, get it right. (I need a smiley emoticon here!) HiLo48 (talk) 03:03, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Easy call. Drmies (talk) 03:06, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, if you had asked them that, and they refused to accede, you could have asked me to enforce. I would have. You just can't assume that we know everything all the time--well, not me anyway. Drmies (talk) 03:16, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I guess I was always just hoping for reasonable behaviour, but... (if I complete this sentence I may be breaching the ban.

) HiLo48 (talk) 03:21, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, don't finish that thought. Mind you, there are exceptions; please see WP:BANEX. Drmies (talk) 03:28, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I must admit to having a little concern about how to manage this. Pete and I tend to watch the same articles in the Australian political sphere. On several occasions I have reverted what seemed to me to be quite inappropriate changes he has made to articles. That's obviously been at least part of the trigger for his concerns about me. I feel almost certain that I will again see such edits from him, i.e. edits that seem to me to be quite inappropriate changes to articles. If I do see such changes, what do I do? HiLo48 (talk) 03:36, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ahem. Well, you do nothing--nothing at all. That's the rub, and I wondered a bit about the jubilation. Interaction bans are good for defusing situations, but they're not good for article quality. You can't even discuss their edits (and vice versa, of course). We can only hope that you two are not the only ones editing those articles... Drmies (talk) 03:48, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmmm. Yes. Not good for article quality. So there's no process at all? Forget the individuals involved here. That just doesn't make sense at a global level. Have I ever mentioned feeling frustrated here? (Rhetorical question.) That seems guaranteed to increase such feelings. HiLo48 (talk) 03:53, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Whatever, I'm happy to give it a go. If things progress well I'd like to hope that the ban could be dropped or at least made less formal in the future. HiLo48 (talk) 04:20, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a brilliant solution, but an intermediary or third opinion when you two have to interact over an edit? A neutral third party can then decide and all you have to do is put your arguments up. No real interaction necessary between you and Pete. Solution? Thanks ツ Jenova 20 ^(email) 09:53, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That's the way it's typically worked for years :-) It allows editors to focus on the content by removing interpersonal spats from the conversation. Suggestions need to be policy-based, sourced, and they'll be judged on merit. There's little leeway, however, for snide inline comments, so always re-read before clicking "save page" or else blocks for IB breaking will be quick...even if you self-revert moments later ES &L 10:18, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm quite happy with that for the future. As I said above, I thought we DID have an interaction ban in place, so I don't feel much is different, so long as some process still exists for content disputes, should they occur. Let's hope they don't.

HiLo48 (talk) 11:07, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Now you're confusing me as much as the other editor did when he felt that "stay off the talkpage" was only temporary. As per WP:BAN, unless the community has had a discussion specifically related to an WP:IBAN and it's been enacted accordingly ES &L 11:37, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about any confusion, but I don't quite know what you mean. Want to ask me a question or two to clarify? (I don't want to try to guess.) HiLo48 (talk) 11:42, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What made you think that a formal interaction ban was in place? Can you link to a specific AN/ANI discussion where one was !voted on and enacted? From what I see, there wasn't even an informal IB in place ... just a note to one editor to stay the hell off your talkpage ES &L 11:58, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No. I didn't think there was anything as formal as is now in place. In fact, I didn't even know such formal arrangements were a standard part of Wikipedia. I just knew we had an "informal" ban, based on my repeated requests to the other editor, reinforced by an Admin's instruction. I felt that was a good arrangement (except that it ended up not working). You may not call it that, but it's what it felt like to me. It was what I sought, so it was good. What's now newly in place should be safer on the interaction front. Obviously I'm pleased with that part of the new arrangement. Hope that clears it up. HiLo48 (talk) 17:36, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Unblock

Ok. You may also want to review the proposed wording for conditions of unblock that are currently under discussion at ANI in the same section. You'll very quickly see there are some obvious ... and hidden ... benefits to you. If the community accepts those, an admin will propose them to you as condition of unblock ES &L 17:57, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, that still bothers me for the reasons I explained above, in my post time-stamped 11:29, 4 November 2013 (UTC) in the section titled October 2013. The action that led to this block WAS a personal attack. It DID contain swearing. I did over-react, to repeated and persistent ongoing garbage from someone I still see as a racist, irrational, incompetent POV pusher. And he is still free to edit. Conversation there suggests that many think he shouldn't be free to edit any more, but he is. I was blocked for over-reacting to a situation that should not have existed. Right now I am still incredibly frustrated that my blocking was virtually instantaneous, and the community still seems to have no idea how to deal with insidious, malicious vandalism from editors like Collingwood... Repeated, ignored warnings don't count as "dealing with" them. They achieve nothing. I am no Superman. I hate seeing such damage to Wikipedia and feel almost certain that I will again post things seen as unacceptable here if he (or others) are allowed to continue posting rabid nonsense. In summary, if the community cannot stop Collingwoodwhatever in particular, and does nothing about such behaviour in general, I find it very difficult to accept those conditions. I could not trust myself to keep them. The simple reality is that Wikipedia allows racist, incompetent bullshit, but not swearing at such nonsense. If that situation continues, I probably don't belong. HiLo48 (talk) 18:18, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Omg stop calling me names and putting words in my mouth, I have never abused you yet you keep on attacking me. I am a useful contributor to Wikipedia, get over yourself.--Collingwood26 (talk) 23:59, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Please stay away from this user's page Collingwood- the place to comment, in full is ANI. Otherwise it just looks like you are being provocative again. Nickm57 (talk) 00:14, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

HiLo, I smell a consensus to unblock you. Mind you, any next time that you go over whatever are perceived as limits you'll be blocked again, most likely. You know I can't define those limits, but I also think you know what they are, whether you like them or not. On that note, have a nice day. Drmies (talk) 03:57, 6 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Drmies. I should really have to say no more than I've already said on this page. Although it's obvious that not all have read what I've said here, which is very sad, since, unlike Collingwood, I haven't been able to contribute to the discussion about me at AN/I. (I think I might do a better job than he has.) And there's a massive diversity of views there. It's still obvious that some think that my abuse is a far worse sin than the racism and incompetence I was addressing (and that the Admin community had virtually ignored for two years). The massive diversity of views about Collingwood and his treatment is also significant. Anyone who says policy is clear, and decisions therefore unarguable, is off their rocker. I know Admins have to have faith in the processes they've asked for the right to police, but a little observation must show the doubt and uncertainty involved. Everyone seems to be sucking up to Stradivarius, telling him he does a wonderful job, but he did a marvelous job of quoting me out of context, thereby completely misrepresenting my views on some matters. For those who haven't read this page, it was a very misleading thing for him to do. Since I was unable to participate there, it would have been more ethical for him to quote me in totality, or direct people here to read my comments. Misrepresentation is one of those many sins in Wikipedia for which there seem to be no consequences (so long as it's done without swearing). Anyway, you HAVE paid attention to my comments. Much respect for that. The unfortunate views on display from some Admins when talking about me have just reinforced my view that the system is broken, but I haven't given up on trying to make it better, despite some obviously wishing I would. HiLo48 (talk) 06:49, 6 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry if I misquoted you - that wasn't my intention. I've added a longer quote to the ANI discussion. 24 hours late is better than never, I hope... — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 08:14, 6 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

OK, thanks for that. I do put a lot of thought into (most of

) my posts. It's the whole of what I want to say that's important to me. And sadly, misrepresentation, misquoting, quoting out of context, etc, are tools used by some of those POV-pushers I seem to encounter in my battles against damage to Wikipedia. (Not you, of course.) I know it's harder to police than obvious swear words, but dirty tricks in arguing is, IMHO, a very serious problem here. It's a form of incivility too. One can be very uncivil without ever uttering a naughty or insulting word. And it's very rarely policed. That frustrates me a lot. HiLo48 (talk) 10:36, 6 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

HiLo, I stuck my neck out more than I intended; there is a bit of a backlash that I didn't see coming. That doesn't mean you owe me something, but it does mean that there will be more than one editor looking very carefully at you in the future, and given the discussion on ANI that's valid, I suppose. Now, I'm still not totally happy with matters: I had hoped for a more clear statement from you that those comments were out of line and that you'll try your best to keep it civil. I've argued repeatedly that there was a context (here and in other high-profile incivility cases), but the community is less interested in your disclaimers than they are in a promise from you to tone it down.
I also insist that you cannot expect editors to dig up every relevant fact; as I said before, that's what RfC/Us are for, and it's you should lead there, not just point to a few comments here and there. You pointed out some, to your credit, but I think you could have handled this better on the front end, just as Stradivarius will no doubt argue that I didn't handle it well on the back end. Be that as it may, I am not going to reverse my unblock since I cannot justify that, but I do feel a kind of responsibility to make sure that my unblock doesn't remain controversial (you should see my Inbox). Take it easy, and don't criticize Stradivarius too much: I disagree with them, but they did what they felt was right, as did I. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 15:16, 6 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe an RfC/U could work, but my experience is very negative, just as it has been with AN/I. An RfC/U was opened on me. All it achieved was the delivery of another platform where several of those I've upset, by trying to prevent their POV-pushing disruption to Wikipedia, piled on and repeated all the things they didn't like about me, some of it true but irrelevant, much of it blatant lies and misrepresentation. Just as with AN/I, there was no way I could effectively respond to all the nonsense being posted, and there were no consequences for the liars and misrepresenters. I don't believe anyone else should suffer the same unfair situation, hence my reluctance to raise an RfC/U on others. Oh, and there was no formal outcome from the RfC/U. Yet another failed process. Am I wrong in basing my views on that? The other problem I see right now is the massive disparity of views held and loudly proclaimed by Administrators here, both on me and on Collingwood (who's still free to say and do what he likes!). It's very difficult to get a clear guideline on how to operate. I guess I could just give up on policing the vandalism on potentially controversial articles. But someone needs to do it. I really am confused as to how I should operate here. As for Stradivarius, I had a concern. I explained it. He took corrective action. I'm happy with it, and told him that. If he has further concerns I'm quite happy to discuss them. I actually wish he would. I would welcome that. HiLo48 (talk) 20:02, 6 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

HiLo, while I wouldn't have done the unblock Drmies has performed, and I disagree with his reading of the consensus, I've argued at AN/I that now it has been done, we should go with it. Drmies has stuck his neck out for you and I'm not going to be the first to take a swing at it. He's your good cop at the moment - please don't abuse his trust.

I on the other hand am your bad cop. I do believe there was a clear consensus that, whatever the provocation your attack was disproportionate and must not be repeated. So I'm here to lay out as clearly as I can what I will and will not block you for in the future. We have to go hypothetical here: my take would be that "You are a fucking moron" is both a direct attack and swearing. "That edit was fucking moronic" would be an indirect attack and swearing. "You are a spectacularly stupid editor" would be a direct attack but with no swearing and "That was a spectacularly stupid edit" would be indirect and not swearing. I will block you for edits like any of the first three examples, but would not block for the fourth example. The block would be for 2 weeks next time. Provocation will be no defence. This is not a standard I would apply to a first-time offender, but you have had many warnings and so a different standard applies.

Your swearing is not the prime problem, it's the personal attacks which are. But the addition of swearing adds an unnecessary level of aggression to an attack and damages the collegial atmosphere. It makes no difference to your target (in fact it probably makes them feel self-justified.) But it turns a tense situation into a hostile one and that's not good for other editors who don't come from your robust cultural background. You insist - correctly - that no one nation can impose its standards upon Wikipedia. Similarly, your standards that swearing is just a method of underlining your point are just that - your standards. You cannot impose them on others. This is an international, voluntary collaboration. Your right to say whatever you like needs to be balanced against the rights of others to edit in a friendly place where people respect one another even if they disagree.

You don't have to agree to or accept any of this. I don't expect you will. But the Wikipedia community has given both Drmies and myself authority to use some buttons to regulate how this place works; he has used his decisively and without worrying too much about whether his decision will make him popular. I reserve the right to do the same. Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 00:01, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

And this post exemplifies exactly what is wrong with the way a number of admins here choose to exercise the privileges they have been given by the community. Nothing occurs without context. So long as you choose to ignore the context in which an event occurs and choose to punish (and I use that word deliberately) only the person reacting to the actions of another editor who is actually damaging the project you will continue to perpetuate an environment in which incompetent and/or unscrupulous and/or malicious editors can continue their activities without consequence. Even worse, these malignant editors manage to get those trying to stop them blocked with the acquiescence of compliant admins. Maybe you could try climbing down off your high horse and have a look at what is really going on and start using your admin powers for the benefit of the project rather than blocking productive editors. Maybe you could try blocking some of those POV warrior that in reality caused all this mess, but which some admins seem strangely willing to keep merely slapping on the wrist but never actually take any real action against. - Nick Thorne ^talk 01:33, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Nick, I have great respect for Kim Dent-Brown and I don't think we're in disagreement here. Kim is not on a high horse anymore than I'm on a low rider. If you would read more carefully you'd see that Kim is here to help, not to chastise or threaten. I don't think you realize how many feathers are ruffled (and understandably!) when a block is overturned. But the other side is that you seem to expect us to figure it all out--to jump into the middle of a shouting match and with a bit of sleuthing see through to the heart of things. It's not that easy. But worse, please don't suggest, as I think you are, that "certain" admins (the one who blocked HiLo in the first place? Kim?) are acquiescing in any kind of collusion. I will grant you that too many admins tend to block with a checklist of bad words in hand (and I am not saying that that applies to this block), but don't push the point.
Now, HiLo had a few interesting things to say below, and that's where we should turn: a way forward. Let's be productive here and see what needs doing. Thank you, Drmies (talk) 03:44, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly, I have inserted a section header to mark out the change of topic to the ongoing discussion about HiLo's unblock etc, plus I have changed the indentation on HiLo's comment below, because I think he was replying to KDB not me. Of course feel free to reverse either or both of those if you feel it appropriate.

Drmies, with respect, my criticism is about the way this whole process has concentrated on the symptom, not the disease. Sure, HiLo over-reacted and was not very civil and deserved at least a wet trout for his efforts, but I get very disheartened when I see the discussion at AN/I concentrating on HiLo's admittedly intemperate comments and completely ignoring the environment in which they were made. This does the project no good at all and the likely effect of the continued application of that misalignment and inequitable application of admin priorities serves only to drive productive editors away. I know that I for one have been reconsidering whether I am prepared to continue to participate under the current environment. I am not the most productive editor here, I mostly do gnomish work and patrol vandalism in my areas of interest, but for every one of me that speaks up about these things there are probably ten who think them and leave the project, probably judging that its just not worth all the Wikidrama. - Nick Thorne ^talk 04:23, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Nick, if you don't mind me saying, I think you're flat-out wrong that the process was out of sync. The most obvious issue was the NPA - which draws a lot of attention, and which led to a block. When you go to ANI, you now see three very distinct subthreads - two of which deal with the symptoms. Just like when I have a cold, I like a nice Neo Citron to help me sleep so that by being well-rested and well-hydrated, my body will recover, sometimes you have to take the most difficult (and obvious) part of the incident out of the equation. I was actually considering how to codify the way things worked out on ANI because it was being done the right way ES &L 10:19, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

ESL, no, I don't mind you saying. However I respectfully disagree. HiLo was blocked almost instantly the issue was brought up an AN/I yet Collingwood is still unblocked, days after it was made abundantly clear what he had done and was continuing to do. The consensus to site ban was very clear before the apologists showed up. I do not see the same fervour to deal with this problematic editor that was used to block HiLo with what I can only describe as indecent haste. Despite all the revisionist talk it is apparent that the difference is that HiLo was being punished because he upset the language sensitivities of some delicate little flowers. There is an enormous imbalance here and it is just not good enough. HiLo should not have been blocked with such haste, if at all and Collingwood should be thrown out of Wikipedia promptly, it is well past time. I am not an admin or I would have done the job myself days ago. - Nick Thorne ^talk 11:12, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

[Just had an edit conflict, but I'll post my comments anyway] You know Kim Dent-Brown, I agree with almost all of that. I don't think my personal attack on Collingwood was a good thing to do. It was an irrational outburst born of massive frustration with two things, his incompetent, irrational, POV-pushing, racist editing, AND the fact that it had been going on for two years, despite previous visits to AN/I. I know people say that I should have taken it to AN/I myself, or opened an RfC/U myself. I've explained above, several times, why I hadn't done that, and am reluctant to do it in future. Even now I suspect that if I did, I would instantly cop postings of the style "HiLo is just a troublemaker himself", and far worse. AN/I is hardly a place for quick and effective justice (unless one swears

). (The thread on Collingwood is a classic example. Far too slow. Far too many opinions.) I'd be interested in your thoughts on my concerns about that, and my experience as the subject of an RfC/U. Can it be better handled? And BTW, I don't want to try to tackle the problems here by swearing. I certainly didn't plan to when I woke up that day. And my repeated comments about swearing being an effective way of getting the right level of attention on troublemakers should be read as an observation about something true and very unfortunate here, not my plan of operation. Trust me. I don't want to be the subject of all this sort of crap again. It's punishment enough. Hence my question above. What are your thoughts on my concerns about the effectiveness of AN/I and an RfC/U for the kind of situation I found myself in with Collingwood? [Now that I know others are looking, I'd welcome a response from anyone!] HiLo48 (talk) 01:48, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks HiLo, I'll accept the invitation to talk about the future rather than dwell on the past. I share some, but not all, of your dissatisfaction with the way management processes such as ANI and RfC/U work. But I'm minded of the quote about democracy from Churchill (I think): it's the worst possible form of government apart from all the alternatives. Yes it is slow and for some (not all) who are complained of the process is bruising. The same could be said of the court system and its probably not possible to have any dispute resolution system that does not at times feel painful to those in it. But let's look at what happened in the recent complaint brought by Collingwood26. We haven't yet reached a final outcome but I think we are nearly there now. You are free to edit with no community-imposed parole and no limits on your scope of activity. Pete has been told in no uncertain terms that he must stay off your talk page, permanently, under threat of a block. Collingwood26 is undoubtedly going to be sanctioned, either with a block, a topic ban or a site ban. Now, I'm the first to agree that the process by which we got here was not pretty but I think the destination is about right. Question is, could we have got here quicker?

We could, had we not first had to go through Collingwood's complaint about your attacks. Nick asserts above that this is all we have done at ANI, which I think is a misreading of the events. Most of the thread started by Collingwood has discussed Pete and Collingwood, not you. But if somebody (you, maybe?) had brought to ANI the kind of material that eventually was brought together as a result of the boomerang, we'd have got to this result quicker and without a week-long block for you. I'm afraid it does require the editors who think there is something wrong to go hunting for diffs. It was diffs that eventually turned the tide against Collingwood26. We have no paid police here. No volunteer admin is going to go hunting for evidence. ANI will work better (not perfectly, but better...) when complainants submit succinct complaints, backed by diffs and then leave it to the community to draw a conclusion.

You've been brought to ANI a few times and had an RfC/U raised on you. I don't expect you to enjoy that. But action has been taken on only a minority of occasions. This time, a block was imposed which had overwhelming consensus. Not for the duration, but certainly for the block, despite a couple of voices opposing it. But at the RfC/U a clear outcome was established - I remember because I closed it myself - that you had done nothing actionable. That wasn't a 'no result'; that was a very definite result, and not the one your opponents hoped for. Other ANI complaints have resulted in no action against you. Again, a definite result.

The ANI process usually works quickly and decisively. If you watch it as I do, you'll see most complaints are resolved in about three exchanges of edits. Ones like this one are vey much the exception although of course precisely because they rumble on for days, they occupy a lot of space and time. But in that, this complaint has been untypical. In its result however I'm reasonably happy. For the future, if you have complaints about an editor then bringing them calmly to ANI along with good diffs is going to work better than calling them a fucking racist moron (or whatever). We might ultimately end up in the same position as we are now, but it'll be quicker and more painless for you. You're right that there are some editors who will not take you seriously at ANI but there are more who can recognise a change of approach when they see it. For my part, what I will do differently is that should I get an approach like that at ANI, from you or anyone else, then I'll do my best to read the diffs and come more quickly to a decisive conclusion.

Sorry for the TL;DR nature of this. Here's hoping for calmer waters in future. Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 08:34, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(I like these emoticons!) HiLo48 (talk) 09:30, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

ツ Jenova 20 ^(email) 11:51, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Like Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 12:45, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I just saw your post above about whether I have further concerns. The answer is, well, sort of. I would have liked you to give a direct assurance that you wouldn't make personal attacks again, even if faced with the worst POV and IDHT editing. My views are very similar to Kim's here: ANI may not be perfect, but if you try and make it work then it usually gets to the right result eventually. On the other hand, making personal attacks is ever helpful. Even if you're certain that the editor you're attacking is a net negative and should be blocked, doing so makes you look worse for reacting to them, they make the other editor look better when their behaviour is compared to yours, and it also sours the atmosphere for everyone who reads the page. And the attacks make it harder to see who is really at fault. (Or perhaps I should say that it makes it the fault of both of you, although for different reasons and to different degrees.) For this reason, I wasn't really satisfied when you said that you couldn't promise that you wouldn't make personal attacks again in a similar situation. But now that you are unblocked and the thread has been closed, this is mostly moot.

There has been enough drama this time that I don't see myself blocking you again in a hurry, but from the posts here by other admins it looks like any future personal attacks will not be taken to kindly. But apart from that, I really hope that you will consider using methods other than personal attacks in the future, as I think it is just generally a much better way of dealing with situations like this. Have you read WP:GLUE, by the way? It is my favourite Wikipedia essay, and I think the strategy it outlines is something you would benefit from trying. Also, if there are any other things like the misquoting issue that you would like me to take action on, please {{ping}} me - I'm always willing to correct myself if I've done something stupid, and pinging me will allow me to see your request quicker. Best — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 05:48, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe there's some sort of language difference here (which is very possible), but I don't feel willing "to give a direct assurance that (I) wouldn't make personal attacks again" because I don't trust myself. I didn't wake up on the day I offended planning to make a personal attack. It came out of frustration, with two thing, which I've explained thoroughly above. It wasn't a rational, planned action. I certainly don't intend to make such a post again. I hope that's enough. HiLo48 (talk) 05:59, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, after two or so posts on Collingwood's page that you never should have made in a million years, he's now had his talkpage access blocked for lashing out at you ... that was poorly planned by you (or well-planned, depending if one does not AGF). You should be ashamed of that ES &L 02:40, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't plan to post there any more. And I actually removed his most recent outburst very quickly, with no comment, before almost anyone else could have seen it. I didn't want him to get into any more trouble. And please remember, I didn't report him at AN/I. He reported me. HiLo48 (talk) 02:56, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Without offering any views on how we all got to this point, but having regard for all of the above etc etc etc ... Welcome back. Euryalus (talk) 02:36, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

HiLo48 (talk) 02:40, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Monty Python

This is a bit off the track for that one page, so I'll ask you directly: Have you seen that old Monty Python skit where they dress up like Aussies and sing about famous philosophers being drinkers? I get the beer, the khaki shorts, the exaggerated accents. What I don't get is (1) the fuzzy things dangling from their broad-brimmed hats; and (2) calling everybody "Bruce". Apologies if I've asked this before at some point in the distant past. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:20, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, got a copy of that sketch on my hard drive. It's corks hanging from the hats. It's a cliched image. They do, to some extent, keep the flies off your face. As cliche they are also an indication of how many bottles one has emptied to collect that many corks. The Bruce thing is apparently built on the cliched view, at least to Poms, that Bruce is a common name in Australia but not in the UK. No idea if it's true. HiLo48 (talk) 07:33, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Blimey. I should have known. We have an article on it! See Cork hat. HiLo48 (talk) 07:46, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Aha, that makes total sense. The question arises, then, as to whether the Pythoneers are making fun of the Aussies, or making fun of the stereotypes. Probably a bit of both. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:08, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A bit of both I suspect. Another aspect was that the Aussies were all academics, of rather weird kinds admittedly, but that was perhaps a recognition that, despite the Ocker characters, there is another side to what makes an Australian. HiLo48 (talk) 09:06, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've commonly heard that you're all Bruce, call your women Sheila, and own barbeques...ツ Jenova 20 ^(email) 10:09, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

We call women sheilas. It's a generic word for woman. As in "Jeez, will ya look at the tits on that sheila over there". Her name doesn't have to be Sheila. In fact, the speaker probably neither knows nor cares what her name is. Doesn't everyone own a barbeque? (I built my own.) HiLo48 (talk) 10:24, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There was a man a while back in the UK who sued for racial discrimination in the workplace as he was greeted every morning by "how's Sheila" and constantly asked about his barbeque. I don't even know if the guy was Australian, but he certainly won his case. Thanks ツ Jenova 20 ^(email) 11:05, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"This here is the wattle. The symbol of our land. You can stick it in a bottle. You can hold it in your hand. Amen." [3]

You have Cher in Australia right? Not just ABBA as an influence?

Your Soccer (football) conversation is killing me inside. Do you have Cher in Aussie land? Voila. Enjoy. That's how i'd want my car washed. You can watch with our Sheila while you put more shrimp on the barbie =P ツ Jenova 20 ^(email) 23:05, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Aussies never put a shrimp on the barbie. We prefer prawns. couldn't care less about Cher, or ABBA for that matter. - Nick Thorne ^talk 03:32, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah. Too right. No shrimps here. Just prawns. It was an ad to attract Americans to our land, and the script had to be written in American, not Australian. We understand American, but we know that not many Americans understand Australian. No Cher either, well no more than any other foreign entertainment, but I understand that Abba had a higher level of success in Australia than elsewhere.

I was lucky that the stereotypes from Priscilla were accurate enough to make most of that post work then =D.

How's them there crocs biting today? I'm running low on my stereotypes now unless someone mentions Steve Irwin... Thanks ツ Jenova 20 ^(email) 09:16, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ah Priscilla. Great movie. It caused surprisingly few waves among the conservatives and bigots. I guess it did come out of the city that has hosted the Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras for the past 35 years. HiLo48 (talk) 02:56, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There's an American copy but it's not as good as the original. Although Wesley Snipes is quite good. Thanks ツ Jenova 20 ^(email) 09:20, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Discussions

Sorry, I didn't mean to post my last comments to the WP:FOOTY thread - I saw you had asked for only the article talk page to be used so I copied them there, but didn't realise I had saved at WP:FOOTY... This is getting very confusing... Number 5 7 11:45, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No worries. It was an understandable error on your part given the perpetually increasing confusion created by one of our obsessed Australian soccer fans. He has a habit of creating new threads all over the place to try to win arguments. I recently deleted five(!) threads from this very Talk page of mine, all started by him. I wish there was a practical way of silencing such well intentioned, but obsessive and vexatious editors. HiLo48 (talk) 22:56, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A kitten for you!

Thank you.

LauraHale (talk) 12:31, 2 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment layout

It doesn't matter, but for the record my comment at WT:Banning policy#Seeking clarification did not "miss the point". There is no way for me to add a comment to a thread like that except by what I did—I was not replying to you. You are right about the silliness of Wikipedia warnings, but mandatory sentences aren't always a good solution either. You have done everything right (except interposing a colon-indented commented above Drmies which broke his use of "**" to indent his reply under mine!), but I recommend leaving it for others now. Johnuniq (talk) 04:17, 4 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not a fan of mandatory sentences either, in just about any situation, but in this case the warnings are achieving nothing. Some real consequence is essential. I should not have to put up with years more of the same crap. I kept my end of the bargain. Even accepting the IBAN was a sacrifice on my part, because it wasn't me that was doing the stalking, but I saw it as a way of achieving some peace at last. It didn't. It lasted four weeks! HiLo48 (talk) 04:51, 4 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Trust me. Things are different and a repeat of what occurred recently will not be tolerated. Johnuniq (talk) 05:38, 4 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure that right now you mean all the good intentions apparent in that statement, but given the long history of this saga, excuse me for feeling just a little sceptical. HiLo48 (talk) 06:16, 4 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry

Sorry for not notifying you; it honestly didn't occur to me, since I'm more concerned with Ymblanter's behavior than yours, but you're right in that you should've been notified anyway. You're also right that we should close it: I doubt anything good is going to come from that discussion, and I regret commenting in it already. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 20:54, 4 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Not blaming you in the slightest. Just reinforcing the point I made earlier in the post-closed-thread conversation that such carryings-on are really quite unethical. HiLo48 (talk) 21:51, 4 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Relative popularity of the Socceroos versus Matildas in people's interests

Google tracks search volume for teams. This shows the relative number of searches for Socceroos, Matildas, and australia national soccer team. The relative volume of searches for the men's team and women's team was the same in April 2004, June 2004, July 2004, September 2004, November 2004, December 2004, February 2005, March 2005, April 2005, May 2005, August 2005, November 2010, December 2010, February 2011, April 2011, December 2011, January 2012, March 2012, April 2012, May 2012, July 2012, August 2012, January 2013, February 2013, April 2013, August 2013, December 2013. The Matildas topped the men in August 2004, July 2005, September 2007, December 2008, and July 2011. --LauraHale (talk) 12:13, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

[4] [5] When only Australian searches are factored in, the differences change. In August 2004, the Matildas had a 66 while the Socceroos had a 4. From December 2005 to April 2006, the Matildas beat the Socceroos based on interest. Again, the Matildas beat the Soccers from July 2006 until June 2007, August 2007 to pretty consistently going forward with one or two months where the Socceroos had more Australian interest.--LauraHale (talk) 12:29, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This academic paper says that soccer is the most popular football code in Australia for women. For men, not so much. --LauraHale (talk) 13:05, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This chapter from a textbook published by the University of Oxford Press says that soccer in Australia has traditionally been for women, ethnic immigrants and homosexuals. This counters the narrative of the sport being exclusively male (and white).--LauraHale (talk) 13:14, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the "success" of the A-League, this source shows they have had financial troubles in the extreme, losing AU$20 million in the past year on top of the AU$27 million they lost during the 2011-2012 season. --LauraHale (talk) 13:16, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This blog post also does a good job at explaining the subtle sexism involved by defaulting non-gendered to men, while othering women.--LauraHale (talk) 14:22, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Related to this, I did an interview on Wikinews. It can be found at n:Wikinews interviews academic Steve Redhead about Australian women's soccer. --LauraHale (talk) 13:09, 9 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Also this is potentially useful.--LauraHale (talk) 22:16, 9 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A barnstar for you!

	The Barnstar of Good Humor
	You complete me. Evanh2008 ^{(talk\|contribs)} 23:33, 14 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A Barnstar for you

HiLo48 for being a total contentious pain in the arse and not understanding the point of evidence vs. facts --Orestes1984

Thank you heaps. Being a pain in the arse to tendentious editors who won't accept consensus is one of my specialities. Have you read WP:BLUE yet? HiLo48 (talk) 05:43, 19 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

+1 Wear it as a badge of honour HiLo =] ツ Jenova 20 ^(email) 09:21, 19 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I will! HiLo48 (talk) 09:25, 19 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Have you read don't drink the consensus koolaid yet? Essays are not hard and fast rules they are rough guidelines at best about how we should interact with eachother as editors in a perfect world which are not actual wikipedia rules or guidelines.

Also read, It's easier to find a citation than to argue over why it is not needed --Orestes1984 (talk) 14:26, 19 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Have you had that big adventure and travelled to the other side of the Barassi Line to see what it's really like there yet? You don't need injections. Can probably get a JetStar flight for under $100. Alternatively, or in addition, you could actually show good faith and believe what other editors tell you. HiLo48 (talk) 20:16, 19 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Once upon a time - the moral of the story

Ha ha, you got caught. You were basically manipulated into calling them all nutters. You need to be more subtle when calling a nutter a nutter to his face. Something like 'I think most fanatical gun lovers have a deep seated psychological problem, that justifications to keep doing what you love is not the same as sensible reasons or imminent threats. and that even though you understand that in a society where everyone is armed you might have more reason to be armed yourself, its better when very few people are armed so getting rid of most of the guns especially the ones designed soley for killing lots of people would make us all better off. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. so get rid of the people who want to shoot other people and stop them from getting guns! But of course that doesn't finish the debate. Don't get me started on that dicky constitutional amendment of theirs which says you can have guns as part of an organised militia. Carrying a semi automatic handgun under your jacket is not an organized militia.Mdw0 (talk) 07:17, 19 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah. Couldn't agree more. I still occasionally have a look at the relevant discussions, and am amused at the goings-on right now at Talk:Gun control‎. The latest section is tellingly called "Was this article ever any good?" It's a place where Wikipedia's normal policies on achieving consensus just don't work. I suspect things are worse than ever right now because their President is taking a strong anti-gun stance (by US standards). Some of the gun lovers are probably terrified that something rational might happen. (You know, it's funny. In re-reading that before hitting Save, I noticed that, although it's theoretically a global topic, I've written exclusively about the problem in the USA, and it seems perfectly normal.) HiLo48 (talk) 23:42, 20 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Then there's an obvious problem with systemic bias. Which is something you might use in your battles with ITN. Wikipedia is supposed to recognize and combat the systemic bias shown by rich white males in the First World. Even though Australia does itself display such bias, and is overrepresented in Wikipedia compared to other cultures, it is a way to battle the Never heard of it' bias from rich white Americans.Mdw0 (talk) 13:06, 21 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Your draft submission Museum of Australian Democracy at Eureka was accepted

Museum of Australian Democracy at Eureka, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
The article has been assessed as Start-Class, which is recorded on the article's talk page. You may like to take a look at the grading scheme to see how you can improve the article.

You are more than welcome to continue making quality contributions to Wikipedia. Note that because you are a logged-in user, you can create articles yourself, and don't have to post a request. However, you may continue submitting work to Articles for Creation if you prefer.

If you have any questions, you are welcome to ask at the help desk.
If you would like to help us improve this process, please consider leaving us some feedback.

Thank you for helping improve Wikipedia! Northamerica1000^(talk) 11:16, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Barnstar

		The Original Barnstar
		For your valiant efforts at Talk:Genesis creation narrative Rwenonah (talk) 12:22, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

IBAN

Hey HiLo, this response is in violation of your interaction ban with Skyring. I don't know if your subsequent self-revert was because you realized that Skyring had started that thread or not (I can't tell from your edit summary); if this were to happen again, by accident, please indicate that more clearly. So, I am forced to warn you: don't do it again. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 15:11, 24 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah. Sorry. I forgot that he had started that thread. Like most threads on that topic it had gone appallingly off topic, and I just responded to one very wrong post from an edit warrior there. And it is becoming very difficult now that Pete/Skyring has decided to spend more time on a topic where I've already spent a lot of time. He also claims that, having earlier seen things the same way as I do, in line with a multiply established consensus, that he now disagree with that position. It could be just coincidence, but it's an amazing one.

I don't expect you to have a detailed understanding of the background to that "Soccer in Australia" situation, but do you have any suggestions on how to manage the very poor behaviour of those editors persistently and irrationally opposing consensus? HiLo48 (talk) 21:52, 24 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

HiLo, let's not talk about Skyring anymore. You'll just have to leave it be: one of the side effects of an iBan, as a wise person said in one of those discussions (it could have been me, I forgot). No, I have nothing to offer on the topic of the talk page, except for the same thing I told your counterpart, in the "goose" section on my talk page. Besides that, it's the same as always: if consensus is laid down in an RfC (or something like it), it's always easier to enforce it and to denounce the disruptors. And as I told him also, I have no desire to get involved (see, I'm aiming for consistency) with yet another conflict over something I just don't understand. So, nail down an issue or conflict, formulate a neutral RfC, get a consensus to have things done your way (cause if you're at all like me, you're right), and then sit back and let the poor admins enforce it. No more talk of Xxxx/Xxxxxxx, OK? Drmies (talk) 23:59, 24 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Quite happy with the first sentence there. My comment yesterday was entirely my mistake. I won't try to justify it in the slightest. On that other matter, there have been three neutral RfCs over the past two years, all resolved the same way. A handful of editors unhappy with that repeated result are using a range of unacceptable tactics (many just plain stupid, dishonest and irrational, IMHO), in many places, to continue fighting that fight. I am constantly abused. In desperation, I tried a visit to AN/I a few days ago. It was a complete disaster. All the usual problems arose. People said "HiLo! He's ALWAYS in trouble. This should be a boomerang", without looking at any of the evidence. An uninvolved Administrator abused me, obviously because I highlighted some poor, POV pushing behaviour of his around a month ago in a totally different area. (It's dangerous taking on unfit Admins.) And because the AN/I visit was a failure, the badly behaved editors at Soccer in Australia now feel even stronger. My question above wasn't asking you to become involved. It was asking, where else can we go? HiLo48 (talk) 00:26, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

HiLo, one of the problems for me is that I have no idea what any of it is about. I don't know what "association football" is (is that what I would call "voetbal"?, or why it is or isn't "Aussie rules football". Or what you all call soccer and what you call football, if you call anything football at all. I can't figure out what y'all's actual problems are on Names for association football, and I couldn't figure out what the content/editing dispute was in that ANI thread you filed. I don't know which RfCs you're talking about or what they supposedly decided--you say that you are attempting to uphold those conclusions and I think Orestes agrees, but puts it in different terms ("ownership", somewhat predictably; whether accurately or not I can't judge). That makes me a pretty dumb non-Australian, of course, and not the person who should dive in the middle of something that got this heated. Can't you find an Australian admin who's not been previously involved in any of this mess and who won't need to spend a week studying the subject matter. I agree that the ANI thread got derailed pretty quickly by possibly hasty judgments--but I skipped it because I simply didn't understand what was at stake.

OK. If there is an RfC, with a well-formed conclusion, and that consensus is being disrupted, I suppose you could post a note on WP:DR or WP:AN, to ask for enforcement of that RfC. That's not what you did at ANI: you basically asked for action to be taken against an individual for personal attacks, and given your track record--rightly or wrongly--you'll quickly get pot vs. kettle remarks. But ask, diplomatically and concisely, for an RfC to be enforced (with specifics about the RfC and the offending edits), maybe at AN, and you'll probably get a different kind of result. I hope. Good luck, Drmies (talk) 03:19, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Cool. Thanks. I'll think about diplomatically trying that path. This IS a messy situation, and I wouldn't expect someone from outside Australia to quickly understand. I won't even ask you to try. In fact, Australia is so geographically large, and some residents so little travelled even within it, ignorance of how things are in parts of the country they've never visited is one of the big issues. I find it amusing that you say "I don't know what "association football" is". That's one of the other issues at question. Without trying to get you involved any further, I'll just say that some editors who absolutely hate the name "soccer" want us to use "association football" as a "compromise". (You see, the name "football" is already taken by other sports in Australia, just as in the US.) My response has always been that almost nobody knows what "association football" is. Thanks you for reassuring me of the likely truth of that view. (But I won't quote you on it.) Right now, let's move on.

HiLo48 (talk) 03:42, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Whatever the kind of football is that Peyton Manning plays, that's what I call football these days. But maybe I've been here too long, in the US that is. When we're in the front yard, my kids determine what I'm talking about by gauging the difference between "voetbal" and "football"--the "v" is voiced, and the "oe" rounded. They still ask me to confirm, though. Drmies (talk) 04:19, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The clear and unequivocal answer can be found at Football in Australia that there are multiple sports known as football, what is clearly being missed here repeatedly is the derisive nature of the word soccer, its associations and connotations, both here and abroad. While it is clear that soccer is unambiguous and I have no problem agreeing with that point, it does not represent the current official name of the sport given by the orginisation that administrates the sport of football in Australia. These changes were made for specific reasons, much of which should not be needed to be repeated. There is a certain lack of understanding going on here which suggests that just because you and your mates call it soccer that it's perfectly acceptable that everyone else does. As I will repeat, while it is unambiguous, it is derisive, and at times derogatory and refers back to a period, where the game was played, for the sake of the foreign admin here.... by sheilas (men who are too much like girls), wogs (a derisive term for Southern Europeans) and poofters (homosexuals) said in context of the book name chosen by Johnny Warren. There is no place for soccer in this country, it is almost as derogatory and racist as calling the game wogball. There were numerous valid reasons raised by the FFA for changing the name of the game including these. One of the main reasons why the name was changed to football was "growing up" and casting off these derogatory terms.

There has been multiple accepted consensuses regarding changing the name to association football, including in New Zealand, where users are unhappy with the term soccer, but cannot use the term football. The term soccer as I will repeat, also does not represent the current term used by the governing body, so on the grounds of historical accuracy it is no longer relevant to the sport. I do not see what is so hard about all of this to understand --Orestes1984 (talk) 18:58, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I would also suggest you do not continue a discussion about a user that you have an interaction ban with as that is beyond being unreasonable --Orestes1984 (talk) 18:58, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

(talk page stalker)Are you allowed to be here?_Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 19:06, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There is no iban going on, these are general comments, if anything is awry here it is mentioning a user that actually has an iban which I was taken to AN/I for. Leave it as it is, this is not talk page stalking when it involves wide range implications that could affect everyone. If Hilo48 wants to discuss mediation or arbitration it should be done in the proper place on Talk:Soccer in Australia --Orestes1984 (talk) 19:15, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 958: / Line 958: @@
 :::::: There has been multiple accepted consensuses regarding changing the name to association football, including in New Zealand, where users are unhappy with the term soccer, but cannot use the term football. The term soccer as I will repeat, also does not represent the current term used by the governing body, so on the grounds of historical accuracy it is no longer relevant to the sport. I do not see what is so hard about all of this to understand --[[User:Orestes1984|Orestes1984]] ([[User talk:Orestes1984|talk]]) 18:58, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
-:::::: I would also suggest you do not continue a discussion about user that you have an interaction ban with as that is beyond being unreasonable --[[User:Orestes1984|Orestes1984]] ([[User talk:Orestes1984|talk]]) 18:58, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
+:::::: I would also suggest you do not continue a discussion about a user that you have an interaction ban with as that is beyond being unreasonable --[[User:Orestes1984|Orestes1984]] ([[User talk:Orestes1984|talk]]) 18:58, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
 :::::::{{tps}}<small>Are you allowed to be here?[[User:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<sub>'''<font color="green">Fortuna<font color="green"></font></font>'''</sub>]] <sup>'''''[[User talk:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<font color="red">Imperatrix Mundi</font>]]'''''</sup> 19:06, 25 January 2014 (UTC)</small>
 :::::::: There is no iban going on, these are general comments, if anything is awry here it is mentioning a user that actually has an iban which I was taken to AN/I for. Leave it as it is, this is not talk page stalking when it involves wide range implications that could affect everyone. If Hilo48 wants to discuss mediation or arbitration it should be done in the proper place on [[Talk:Soccer in Australia]] --[[User:Orestes1984|Orestes1984]] ([[User talk:Orestes1984|talk]]) 19:15, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Revision as of 19:39, 25 January 2014

Further

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The Olive Branch: A Dispute Resolution Newsletter (Issue #1)

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Proposed closure of RfC/U

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Aussie rules as AFL

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Football in Australia

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