Wikipedia:External links/Noticeboard

Welcome to the external links noticeboard
This page is for reporting possible breaches of the external links guideline. Post questions here regarding whether particular external links are appropriate or compliant with Wikipedia's guidelines for external links. Provide links to the relevant article(s), talk page(s), and external links(s) that are being discussed. Questions about prominent websites like YouTube, IMDb, Twitter, or Find a Grave might be addressed with information from this guide. Sections older than 10 days archived by MiszaBot. (For help, see Wikipedia:Purge) If you mention specific editors, you must notify them. You may use {{subst:ELN-notice}} to do so.
Search this noticeboard & archives Additional notes: Concerns with links used as references should be handled at the reliable sources noticeboard. For cases involving blatant spamming, please file a report at the spam project. Obvious cases of corporate vanity can be tagged with {{db-g11}}. This board is not intended for generalized discussion about the external links guidelines themselves, which should be handled at the guideline talk page. To mark a report resolved, place {{Resolved|Your reason here ~~~~}} at the top of the section.
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Time 100

I'm wondering about the use of external links in the article Time 100. Adding these lists as external links might have been done because adding the actual list content itself would've been a copyvio per WP:TOP100 and Wikipedia:Copyright in lists, but adding them as embedded external links doesn't seem like a good idea either. Maybe there's one main link which all of these subpages link to that can be added to the external links section of the article. -- Marchjuly (talk) 09:11, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Marchjuly, nah, this is not the way. Where there is something to tell, the link is a great reference, the others should either go or something should be said so it can function as a reference. We cannot do something alike The_Top_100_Crime_Novels_of_All_Time vs. https://pastoffences.wordpress.com/the-cwa-top-100/ ?? Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 12:14, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Thank you Beetstra for taking a look at this. I've either removed or hid the links and added {{Empty section}} to sections that had no prose content (i.e. were just links). I left a WP:HIDDEN stating that the links might have some value if converted to inline citations in support of prose. -- Marchjuly (talk) 05:49, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Adding/Updating External Links to a New Version of a Website

Hi! I'm working as part of team of researchers on a project called the Interactive Nolli Map. It's a project that began in 2005, and it is an accurate interactive map of 18th century Rome. Adobe Flash's expiration encouraged a team of researchers to update the map, and now it is equipped with significantly more detailed entries and tools that generally make it more user friendly. There are exactly 1320 ruins or objects listed in the map, and each object has a detailed entry, geographic information, drawings made at the time of the Nolli Map's creation. The map allows a user to orient themselves in Ancient Rome, and it allows users to get a remarkably accurate sense of a specific object's geographic location that is nearly impossible to replicate in text. In addition, the links that we have been using center the user on the specific object in the map. Furthermore, inclusion in the original 1748 Nolli Map was often important in itself in many of the objects or building's histories. The interactive map is completely free to access and requires no account or registration of any kind. We have read Wikipedia's External Linking Guidelines and think that it would be really helpful to update Wikipedia's External Links on pages that already link to the now defunct site and add specific external links directing users to that exact object in the map to the site on pages that don't link to it anymore, but we keep running into warnings and the links keep being removed because of successive linking. I would love to discuss the potential merits of this site in contextualizing an encyclopedic entry and its overall benefit to these entries. Please let me know if creating these links will be possible and avoiding removals is possible. I've linked an example of page that I added a link to, so you can see both the Nolli website and how it connects to the entry.

Example of a website with the Nolli Map External Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Column_of_Antoninus_Pius

Nolli Map General Webiste: https://nolli.stanford.edu/#%5B12.4782%2C41.9013%5D

Rendor21 (talk) 17:07, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

So I've reviewed these map links and it's just an app on top of OSM. I am not sure that there is added-value sufficient to justify putting it in hundreds of articles. You could just as easily drop Google Maps or Mapquest in here and have the same effect. Does this user truly intend to add the link to every article corresponding to an item on the map? Yikes! Elizium23 (talk) 18:51, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

@Rendor21, my first question is whether you have investigated Wikidata, as a comprehensive set of links/locations is often wanted there.

My second question is whether you think this might be suitable for the map service. To understand what I mean, please go to Column of Antoninus Pius and look (probably in the upper right corner, near the search box) for a small link that says "Coordinates". Click the numbers. That will open a new map page. Does your project look like something that could fit into that group? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:42, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Russian online library

I am considering adding some links to [1]. The site allows downloads of a lot of texts that aren't available on more commonly used online resources like the Internet Archive. I am aiming in particular for Jagić, Vatroslav (1838–1923): Istorija slavjanskoj filologii, St. Petersburg 1910 and Vajs, Josef (1865-1959): Rukověť hlaholské paleografie, Prague 1932. My (poor) understanding is that the first one is public domain in the US, the second is not. I naturally intend to add the link, not text from these publications. This link doesn't seem to be used on en-wp, and just a couple of times on ru-wp (and probably cited a couple more times as Библиотека Фронтистеса), but seems otherwise serious. The sites copyright policy is stated here, it seems to roughly say the site was made in accordance to a russian copyright law (probably mentioning an outdated one) and to contact in case of perceived offence (with some effort I can provide a resonably reliable full translation). I already linked to it only at Talk:Glagolitic_script#Origin_of_Djervь_Ⰼ. Personuser (talk) 22:40, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Addition: if this helps the site is also given as the source for some files in the public domain on Wikipedia[2][3][4][5] and one particular page linking to a more recent work appears at WP:WikiProject_Spam/LinkReports/flybb.ru Personuser (talk) 02:04, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Forgotten Realms Wiki acceptable?

Hello! I would like to ask if the Forgotten Realms Wiki would count as an exception to the rule no. 12 of WP:ELNO of not using external links to open wikis except...

The Forgotten Realms Wiki has been alive and kicking since 2005, currently has about 35,000 articles and 84 active users (and rising: 95 as of 2021-03-07) and a steadily high acitivity, being currently rank no. 60 at Wikia with a WAM score of 97.68 (whatever that means). In my biased opinion as a contributor the average quality of article is also relatively high.

As further background why I think having that link(s) at appropriate page(s) would be good: Recently a number of Dungeons & Dragons and Forgotten Realms related articles have been deleted on the grounds that their content belongs to fandom wikis rather than Wikipedia. I assume some readers come to Wikipedia with the same naive notion then me, that you can more or less find all knowledge here. For these people, being pointed to where that content is, that does not actually fit in here, would be helpful. The Forgotten Realms Wiki is by far the largest and most successful wiki dealing with D&D Canon.

I have raised that question in the past here and here, but I am asking again because there was no clear consensus: @Nikkimaria: and @WhatamIdoing: argued for the removal of that link from Forgotten Realms, while @RhinoMind:, @Zxcvbnm: and me were for its inclusion, with both sides giving arguments for their views and @Otr500: commenting.

It would be great to get additional opinions for a clearer consensus. Thank you very much! Daranios (talk) 16:00, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

For a fan Wiki it is large. We do have an exception for Wookieepedia (though I don't believe we should but purely on the basis of it hosting blatant copyright violations.) The FR Wiki is only a fraction of the size of that, but it's still sizable and seems well maintained. I'd give it a definite maybe. Canterbury Tail talk 16:29, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

I've been using it for years as a reader, but never edited. Overall I find its articles to be surprisingly well maintained, on average quite reliably sourced and informative. With the general consensus on Wikipedia being to move away from the inclusion of in-universe content with articles about fictional works over the past decade, I don't see the harm of relevant articles from FR Wikia being externally linked as an alternative for readers who might have expected such coverage from Wikipedia in the past. Haleth (talk) 17:43, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

• I agree with Haleth; I've seen a lot of AfDs point that the FR Wikia exists so in-universe content is unneeded here. I think we should add link(s) at the appropriate page(s). I've also used the FR Wikia to find/doublecheck ISBNs, page numbers & difficult to find links in order to update articles here (mostly D&D sourcebooks & novels). Sariel Xilo (talk) 17:55, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Thank you everyone! Are there any more opinions? Daranios (talk) 08:05, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

I know I've already commented, but I think it's fine as an external link. Not a reference clearly, but for an external link to the specific article, sure. Canterbury Tail talk 15:51, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for all opinions! Just pinging one more time: Is there anyone else who would like to provide input? Thanks! Daranios (talk) 08:09, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

@Daranios: do we really need a perennial discussion for this (December 2019, May 2020, February 2021) just because you do not get a clear consensus for inclusion? Seen the December & May discussion there is not a clear consensus.

Anyway. WP:ELNO #12 is one of our 'links to avoid'. We really avoid links to open wikis, and you really need a massive editor base to be stable (and that is not even true for Wikipedia itself). I do think the editor base is relatively small. But we do not outright forbid it, we avoid them. I can see that there are pages where the Wiki is acceptable, but no, it is not a link that should be added everywhere where it fits.

Regarding specifically on Forgotten Realms, no, I don't think it not belongs. It is not an official wiki of the subject, it is totally fan based. It is not obviously endorsed by the official site of the subject. For general information it does not add specifically over the official site, and it is not linking to specific content that makes you understand the subject of Forgotten Realsm better (beyond the official site- per [6]: "The wiki is not a substitute for the original source material"), it has a different aim. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 09:43, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

@Beetstra: Thanks for the input. The discussion seems important to me as I really feel that the Forgotten Realms Wiki would provide a value for the reader of Wikipedia, and because there was a majority for the inclusion of the link, but it was so slight I was advised to get back here. I am obviously here with my preconceived notions, but I am not the only one with that opinion. I still believe that the reasoning behind WP:ELNO #12 (linking to incorrect information, danger of spam, danger of the link becoming dead in the forseeable future) does not apply to the Forgotten Realms Wiki, and therefore I feel that in this case we would only adhere to a rule to avoid setting an example for other cases, but not because it makes sense in this case.

As for the question if it helps understanding the subject of Forgotten Realms better: The Wiki provides an enormous amount of details about the FR that don't have a place at Wikipedia. Sure, it does not provide much more definition of the Forgotten Realms, but if we look at the Forgotten Realms article, that does provide a number of fictional details. The Wiki expands on those. Numerous articles have been redirected to Forgotten Realms on the basis "that's too much in-universe detail for Wikipedia". The Forgotten Realms Wiki provides details that have been excised here but which someone searching for that term may be interested in. And if a user of Wikipedia is looking for a FR subject which neither has an article nor a redirect, where will they look if not the Forgotten Realms article? And then again the Forgotten Realms Wiki would provide some of the detail they were looking for. Sorry for being lengthy. Daranios (talk) 11:57, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

Daranios, if there was a clear consensus you would not have been here. The link was repeatedly included, and repeatedly removed.

No, your thinking about #12 is wrong. It is there solely because most open wikis are not stable and do not have a large enough editor base (and I do doubt that this wiki satisfies that). We avoid linking to open wikis. When a link matches one of the 'to avoid' points, you need a solid reason to include it anyway.

My second part of the reasoning is more pointed to the reason of why we link externally anyway. Is it information that is needed to understand the topic? No, not really, we have a large article with a large number of references. As for the 'where else would they look' .. they would first be directed to the official website. And apparently, the official website does not think this wiki to be important enough to link from there (I could not find it). Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 09:41, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

There's clearly disagreement about what's the right and wrong interpretation. So, assuming for a moment that both sides have valid arguments, the question is where is the dividing line between a no-consensus situation and a representative majority, and who decides that? Daranios (talk) 16:07, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

Daranios, we don't count. "No page should be linked from a Wikipedia article unless its inclusion is justifiable according to this guideline and common sense" (WP:EL). Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 07:38, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

@Beetstra: But IF "its inclusion is justifiable according to this guideline and common sense" is exactly what the disagreement is about. A majority thinks the inclusion of the Forgotten Realms Wiki link is justifyable according to common sense and WP:ELNO #12 as a wiki "with a substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors", a minority says it isn't. If we don't have any way (or neutral person) to judge when a majority counts here, that would mean the exception specified in the guideline could never be applied as soon as any one objection would be raised. That can't be right. Daranios (talk) 07:59, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

Daranios, you are now pushing it to a far end, which is not the case here, there are more than one objection/concerns. But we have mechanisms for these, and yes, in some cases we need independent closure of such cases. Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 08:05, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

@Beetstra: So there's no further guidance between "get consensus" and arbitration? And I assume you are not convinced by the fact that six editors find it justified to include this link, and only three that it is not. Is that correct? As I said, I feel this really would be a valuable resource for the readers of the Forgotten Realms article, so I don't want to let it lie. I also don't want to escalate unnecessarily. So if not more opinions appear now, and as one of the issues is the question of substantial number of editors, I am thinking about waiting how the Forgotten Realms Wiki develops. If it should reach a number of 100+ registered editors for several months, the (minimum) value suggested by WhatamIdoing, I would start the discussion yet again, making it even more perennial but avoiding outside assistance for now. And hope that approach will not be annyoing for you. Daranios (talk) 12:28, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

Daranios, arbitration? There are so many steps between, even without escalating. And you are, again, counting (6:3), not looking at the arguments. Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 12:51, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

@Beetstra: Cool, so I misunderstood "pushing it to a far end". So could you please let me know what could be the next step(s) towards a resolution without escalation?

As for me counting: I have looked at the arguments and am not convinced by them. I also think I have explained why. - If you want me to explain more on any point, please let me know. I am baffled by your resistance to that external link, just like you seem to be baffled by my insistence. You believe you are right. I believe I am right. I cannot be sure that I am right, because there's several persons I could not convince. You (and here the counting comes in) should not be sure that you are right because there's (a larger number of) persons whom it seems you did not convince. Daranios (talk) 16:41, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

Daranios, my 'far end' was with regard to your 'any one objection would be raised', the link was twice reverted, and editors showed concerns.

I don't think I am right, I gave my view. You realized in starting this thread there was no consensus, and therefore I think that you need to find independent closure/evaluation of the current three discussions. There are people who think it does not add, there are people who seem to not really care either way, and there are people who think it is beneficial. Or, which I think is already heavy handed for an external link, re-start the discussion through an RfC. Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 16:57, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

@Beetstra: Sounds good. Can you point me to if there's an established way to find "independent closure/evaluation" by someone neutral to the topic/discussion so far? Daranios (talk) 19:31, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

@Daranios, you can request a summary of the discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:37, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip! I have done so. Let's see what happens. Daranios (talk) 12:00, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

ELNEVER and convenience links

What I'm trying to figure is how WP:ELNEVER might apply to WP:CONVENIENCE#Citation guidelines since it also seems to apply to the links included as part of citations in addition to external links. For example, generally links to media files uploaded to websites like YouTube are removed when they are to pages containing copyrighted content that was uploaded by someone other than the original copyright holder of the content (or their representatives), at least that's been my understanding to date. So, I'm wondering if the same applies to images of text content uploaded by someone to their website; for example, an individual uploads newspaper, magazine and other print publication articles about themselves to their website as actual scans or pdf files; not blurbs or bits and pieces, but a scanned version of the entire article or even the entire publication. Uploading the entire publication would seem to be a copyvio, but I'm not sure about a single page or a section of a single page since these might fall under fair use.

It was quite common back in the pre-Internet day for people to add newspaper clippings, etc. of announcements, achievements or things that were otherwise important to them personally to photo albums or scrapbooks. These were almost always only for personal record keeping and maybe showing their family, friends, etc. People still do that kind of thing these days, but many do it online. Businesses or individuals might upload scans of the coverage they receive like favorable reviews or favorable articles in sort of a self-promoting way, but a person might upload scans of articles about family members they are proud of or they want to be remembered by others.

I get that citing the original source material is necessary since that (and not the convenience link) is the source and I know sources don't need to be online per WP:SAYWHERE. What about linking to sites containing such scans since that would allow easier verification of the source, especially if it's a true unmodified copy of the source? Would such links be considered copyvios if the original content is still protected by copyright and the site is not controlled by the copyright holder? A scan of an article is most likely just a case of c:COM:2D copying and not WP:Derivative work; so, only the copyright of the original material would seem to matter. A citation can be formatted to be for the original source, but still indicate (e.g. using the |via= parameter) that the link provided is to some other site. Lots of citations link to archived versions of articles found on sites like the Wayback Machine, and WP:COPYLINK says it's OK to link to them. There are also sites like Newspaper.com and Google Books which upload scans of newspapers and books that are also sometimes linked to. My question is more about "personal Wayback machines" where scans of print materials that are specifically about the uploader themselves might be found. -- Marchjuly (talk) 22:33, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

It doesn't. WP:CONVENIENCE is purely an essay written mainly by a couple of people and not really touched in over a decade. It carries no weight, it's really just some people's opinion. ELNEVER is a guideline, that's pretty much treated as a policy by most. And yes linking to a site with scans of a source, that is still in copyright, with the site hosting them without the rights owner's permission is a copyvio and we shouldn't link to it. If you personally end up using the scan to read the document/book/whatever, then that's fine, but the ref should be to the actual source material not the copyvio. Canterbury Tail talk 23:07, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the response Canterbury Tail. Now to be more specific. All of the citations cited in Maurice Novoa are linked to scans of print articles uploaded to Novoa's website. The sources themselves might be OK (that's probably worth discussing), but I wasn't sure about the links. I tried to advise as much on the article's talk page, but I'm not sure the person who added the links gets it. Should these links be removed? -- Marchjuly (talk) 23:16, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Wow there's something massively suspicious about that article. It was only created a month ago, yet has links to articles on the subjects website (all of which are 404ing right now) and most of them to Latin Australian Times (a seemingly local promotional newspaper, not a respectable news source that itself barely gets any coverage.) It smells to me of a potential COI and seems odd that the creator has found all these files on the subjects websites (not only on for this article, but on others as well.) Anyway it seems that the article in question only actually is sourced to that one very niche newspaper and seems to me that they may not actually be notable. In fact doing a search for his name returns almost no results, I think the article is probably liable for outright deletion as non-notable. I know that's beside the point, we don't know if he got permission to host those files on his website (just a WordPress site), but there's no attribution so seems unlikely so I'd say that they're not applicable reference links and should be referenced to the original source. Canterbury Tail talk 01:11, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

@Marchjuly, you never need to cite ELNEVER as the 'authority' for doing anything. It only encodes rules from other places. If you're concerned about ELNEVER #1, then the real rule is the policy at WP:LINKVIO. Anything that violates that policy should be removed. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:07, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks Canterbury Tail and WhatamIdoing for the responses. -- Marchjuly (talk) 05:45, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Opinion: (based on policies and guidelines) And policy is why wiki's are not accepted as a source or link like in the "Forgotten Realms Wiki acceptable?" above. Finding "exceptions", either on an article (local), or ELNEVER (as mentioned-- a guideline) does not override any policy and guidelines can be more easily edited (changed) than policies. Announcements, achievements or things of personal importance does not need to be included on Wikipedia.

However, I do not see an issue with citing the "External links guideline, or sections such as ELNEVER, to show the blanket reasoning and all related rationale concerning the "External links" sections. Guidelines should follow (Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines that are "Wikipedia's policies and guidelines are developed by the community to describe best practices but in "specific contexts.". The relevant policies are listed so I would be at a lost to understand blanket objections to citing the guideline even though linking to the policy is of course more preferential. If anyone looks at the section on many articles, especially media related, it has become a "repository" for many of the same links, needed or not, providing anything of importance to the article or not, for the same promotional cites, even though policy states On articles about topics with many fansites, for example, including a link to one major fansite may be appropriate. The magic number appears to be 3, so to keep objections down (sometimes) the same three (or a combination of several) are used on just about every like article even though none can be perfectly acceptable. Forgive me if I get excited to see any and all editors with interest in the section, that is often overlooked, but is sometimes a great promotional library. If a policy is relevant to support trimming (maintenance) then of course use it but if it helps an editor to use the guideline that noticeably links (at the top of sections) to a policy, so is supported by that policy, then use what works. If someone has an issue (say a reversion), that is against the guideline supported by policy, dispute resolution will generally not support the edit against policy.

As Wikipedia has grown and become a worldwide accepted source the criteria for inclusion has become noticeably tighter. At a point sourcing from the external links section was common but now it should either be a source (in a "References" or "General references" section) or if not allowed by sourcing policies (and guidelines) or barring any other reason, then as an "External link". I don't see that an "External link" guideline can be applied or "connected" to a citation guideline but WP:LINKVIO (mentioned by WhatamIdoing) is applicable to all.

Concerning WP:CONVENIENCE: Per Canterbury Tail, it is an essay. Some are written and recognized as have some authority of community consensus but at least one part of that essay "However, the guideline does not clarify whether, in the second case, the intermediate source or "convenience site" must be reliable." goes against policy. Wikipedia:Verifiability states: In the English Wikipedia, verifiability means other people using the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source. If a convenience link is from a less than reliable source it should not be used on Wikipedia. To suggest that someone should have to go find a printed copy to verify if the unreliable source actually supports the content is plain silly. The plan pushed by some that sources are "out there somewhere" suffices unless challenged (policy) that includes Attribute all quotations, and any material whose verifiability is challenged or likely to be challenged to a reliable, published source using an inline citation. While Wikipedia:Citing sources is only a content guideline it is supported by policy. Even placing a source in the wrong part of a sentence can bring valid concerns of original research so sourcing from the "External links" would obviously be suspicious.

The bottom line is still that anytime there is a question of confusion or authority a policy is the authority as empowered by broad community consensus and copyright violations are not just a Wikipedia community concern but the WMF as well. Otr500 (talk) 19:50, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

I don't think this is the place to discuss the proper way to cite a source, and I don't think your argument holds up. Imagine that someone posts an image of an old source on a blog (old enough that copyright isn't a problem). The blog post says something like "Here's a cool thing that I found on microfiche in Big Library. It's a scan of the first edition of 'Famous Essay' by Alice Expert". You're citing the old source itself, and for the convenience of people who don't own the source, you link to the blog post. Does your source suddenly become unreliable? Do your readers suddenly become unable to figure out that the scan isn't the original? I don't think so. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:39, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

WhatamIdoing, but there's a problem in the supply chain because the blog hasn't reliably published this screenshot. There is no way for us to know if the screenshot is a faithful reproduction of whatever they found on fiche. It could be easily photoshopped. I would not countenance a blog link to support anything, not even an image of a reliable source. Elizium23 (talk) 01:42, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Other editors disagree with you. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:21, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

New York City Council

I'm unsure what to do with the external links in the "District" column of New York City Council#Composition. On the one hand, they're certainly useful. On the other hand, they certainly violate policy currently accepted style guidelines. Suggestions? -- RoySmith (talk) 21:01, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

@RoySmith, let's pretend that it was 2005, you were still a new editor, and we hadn't calcified into a project that cared more about following rules than about the product. At that time, would you have said that, on balance, and in your personal opinion, that those links improve the article? If so, then please Wikipedia:Ignore all rules and do what's right for the article and the reader. (Also, it might actually be in compliance with the guideline at WP:ELLIST anyway.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:16, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

The linking seems a bit excessive to me and the links if anything would probably be better in individual articles about each district if they're needed at all. I'm also not so sure this is in agreement with WP:ELLIST. I get that things were different back in 2005 (that was way ebfore my time) when Wikipedia might have been starting out and perhaps there were less "rules", but this is no longer 2005 and I think treating IAR as being the only way to do what's right for the article and the reader isn't the case as much as it once might of been. Personally, I tend to agree with Roy Smith and think the links should be removed (at least in their current form). Perhaps, there's another way to incorporate the same information. All the links seem to come from gis.nyc.gov/doitt/nycitymap/ so maybe there's one link which can cover them all that can be added to the "External links" section. Another possibility is that they all basically seem to be links to maps, and maps can often be recreated in article using existing Wikimedia. Maybe someone at WP:GL/MAP can figure out how to do that. If a free image could be created for each district's article, then basically the same image could be added to NYC Council article to replace the links. A map of wards seem to be working OK in Chicago Wards and maps of individual districts seem to be working OK in Los Angeles City Council; so, I don't see why the same can't be done for the New York article. -- Marchjuly (talk) 23:29, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Putting them in the individual articles isn't viable right now, because we only have individual articles about four of the 51 districts. I like the suggestion about making a map, but I'm doubtful that it will happen unless the boundaries are already defined (e.g., on Wikidata or at OpenStreetMap).

I don't think you agree with RoySmith. He says that he is unsure what to do, and you have a firm opinion. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:55, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

RoySmith posted they certainly violate policy; that’s what I agree with even though WP:EL is technically just a guideline. If I’ve misinterpreted the meaning of that, then I guess it is just my opinion. — Marchjuly (talk) 03:29, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

@WhatamIdoing: Lets pretend it is 1640, slavery is allowed and socially accepted, and the people who are on the build our countries have brought prosperity to their country that we still recognise. We now recognise that that prosperity brought misery elsewhere. What was 'good' then, is recognised now more as 'bad'. Rules change, guidelines change, consensus changes. That sometimes means that Wikipedia text has to move on. WP:RS decides that a certain reference is too often to bad and 'bans' it, so we also reassess all old links that were already there and remove those that are inappropriate.

@RoySmith: I agree, that list is currently not in line with our policies and guidelines. However, 'District'-> '1/1' is completely unclear as to what that link is bringing me to. It is totally surprising that the link is leading to a map of the council. But then, I agree, that map is, very, useful. However, the link is not 'evidence' for the '1'.

Turning the districts into red/blue-links where these links would be more appropriate is an option (but as said, many are redlinks .. well, that grows the Wiki). Making a separate map is another option, but that is then just supplementary to the table. These links are mainly just a form of references (but I am not sure what piece of data in the current table they properly represent). My suggestion would be to move the links to new 'last' column, where the column name clearly indicates where you are being sent to ('area represented' -> 'map'?). --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 05:59, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

I believe that it is still important to do what's best, instead of focusing on what's "legal".

I've implemented most of Dirk's suggestion here. Moving a table column is quick and easy in the visual editor. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:32, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

@RoySmith, Beetstra, and WhatamIdoing: I think that all creating a "map" column did was to add a column of quasi-embedded citations (a citation style which has been deprecated since 2017) to the table, and I'm not sure I agree that such a thing is "best" for the article. If you look once again at the Chicago City Council article, only two of fifty wards have stand-alone articles; moreover. in addition to the whole city map image for the wards used in the article, there is also an link in the article's "External links" section which shows individual maps for each ward. So, I'm not sure why the same can't be done for the New York article. There is already a link in New York City Council#External links to council.nyc.gov which further links to council.nyc.gov/districts/ which shows a map for the entire city with each district indicated by a number as well as an accompanying table which shows who represents the district and the district's general boundaries. This map is interactive so if you hover your mouse over a district and click on it, a pop of window appears which will take you to more detailed information (including a map) about the district and the member that represents it. This one link seems to essentially do the same thing that 51 embedded into the table are doing; so, they seem unnecessary and keeping them isn't something we really shouldn't be trying to do here. -- Marchjuly (talk) 06:28, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Marchjuly, I agree that this may not be the best solution, but I think that the original situation was ... rather bad, and think that this is a better solution. It could certainly be further approved upon. Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 07:32, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Thanks everybody for your input. I agree that the current "map" column is not a good final solution, but it's certainly better than what was there before. -- RoySmith (talk) 15:57, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

@Beetstra and RoySmith: There might be a possible alternative to the links being worked out at WP:GL/M#New York City district maps. -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:45, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Marchjuly, Thanks for the pointer. -- RoySmith (talk) 22:43, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

External link templates and identifiers

For templates like {{YouTube}}, {{Cite tweet}}, I was wondering if we should use {{R from identifier}} instead of the direct link to YouTube. Anyone have thoughts about that?
@Matthiaspaul: Pinging you as rcat creator. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 16:03, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

The Fifth Estate: Pitbulls Unleashed

Is it appropriate to include this external link [7] to the CBC public affairs program The Fifth Estate (TV program), hosted on their checkmarked, official YouTube channel in the Pit bull article? It's journalistic coverage, including interviews, video, and images that would not be included in an FA. Geogene (talk) 18:20, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose: An investigative journalistic piece doesn't rise to the level of EL, especially when the investigative journalists had to pay out the largest libel suit in Canadian history for another one of their pieces (link), the presiding judge stating: "this was sensationalistic journalism of the worst sort and should serve as an embarrassment to this so-called 'flagship' investigative programme"PearlSt82 (talk) 19:21, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Are you serious? That case was 20 21 years ago. Why do you keep wikilawyering more reasons to keep the link out of the article? It's odd. Geogene (talk) 19:31, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Because its clearly inappropriate material for both an EL and an RS, per both WP:ELNO and WP:RS. PearlSt82 (talk) 19:35, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

There is no chance that you're going to get the CBC disqualified as a reliable source. Geogene (talk) 19:42, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

If you want to discuss that on RSN, I would be happy to, but that is not the point of this noticeboard, which presumably, is intended to solicit the opinions of the broader community with respect to the EL question. PearlSt82 (talk) 19:44, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

I don't care. What you're proposing is so ridiculous that the burden is on you to prove it. If you want to waste the community's time pursuing it. Geogene (talk) 19:47, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Please familiarize yourself with WP:NPA and WP:BLUDGEON. Per WP:EL, "The burden of providing this justification is on the person who wants to include an external link."PearlSt82 (talk) 19:49, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Please familiarize yourself with WP:SATISFY. Geogene (talk) 19:50, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

WP:ELYES says "Sites that contain neutral and accurate material that is relevant to an encyclopedic understanding of the subject and cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to copyright issues" can normally be linked. However, from the CBC's own description of that episode, I'd venture to say it does not contain neutral material: On one side, traumatized families and public safety advocates. On the other, a powerful group of lobbyists. My two cents=don't include in EL. Schazjmd (talk) 21:46, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

External links aren't required to be neutral. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:29, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

No, it does not belong (and neither does the link to the youtube channel that hosts this video - I have removed this). For this video, it is a single video from the program that has been running for many years. There is no reason to single out this one (if you have any, please provide them). Moreover, it is in the table (a way of linking which has been discussed here very often, such a way of linking is often debatable), no need to repeat it. If any of their own video's should be separately included it would be the one where they report on themselves (which seems unlikely to me). And if there is good reason to include it, link to https://www.cbc.ca/fifth/episodes/2017-2018/pit-bulls-unleashed-should-they-be-banned, not https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFa8HOdegZA.

Regarding the youtube channel: we link to the official website of the subject. That page embeds all video's (and again, we link to most already in the tables), and links to the CBCN youtube channel (which leads you to the Fifth Estate youtube channel as well). It is not our task to link to all (or selected) social media of a subject, we link to only one per WP:ELMINOFFICIAL. Exceptions to that need a very strong rationale (as in that the subject gained it's notability to major extent from having said youtube channel). Here there is no reason to link it again. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 08:23, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

There is no reason to single out this one (if you have any, please provide them). I don't understand your meaning. Are you asking why haven't I added every episode of the program to EL sections of every article where they might be relevant and useful? Because I haven't watched them all, and am not interested in doing so? Because of WP:VOLUNTARY? Because that would be linkspam? What a question. Geogene (talk) 13:40, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

I think Beestra has accidentally gotten slight confused and is talking about the Fifth Estate article itself, when this discussion topic is talking about the Pit bull article. Beestra's comments are fully valid for the Fifth Estate article, but that's not what's in question. Canterbury Tail talk 13:55, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) (indeed, User:Canterbury Tail) Geogene, heh, I read your request wrong. My apologies.

Still, no. It does not belong on Pitbull. It is one piece of information. If it is appropriate information it is used as a reference in the document, otherwise it is some 'additional' information. There is a lot said about pitbulls, and this is just one of those pieces of information. It is still a singled-out, cherry picked example. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 14:00, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Understood, and thanks for the info. I don't deal with EL's that much, except to delete obviously bad ones. Geogene (talk) 14:14, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

@PearlSt82, could you say more about "An investigative journalistic piece doesn't rise to the level of EL"? There's no rule against including links to investigative journalism pieces in the guideline, and there never has been.

On the broader question, I'm not sure that an article about a contentious subject, such as pit bull, would benefit from having an ==External links== section at all. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:34, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

I was looking at WP:ELNO #1, specifically with regards to this piece is that it doesn't offer any information beyond what would be in a featured article - in that any information present in it would just be a reference in the article like a print journalistic source or article would. PearlSt82 (talk) 01:47, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Investigative journalism produces primary sources (see this footnote in the policy), and primary sources are not usually the ideal way to build an article. Also, since it's a 45-minute-long news video, it necessarily contains many images and details that are relevant to the subject but that wouldn't be included in the article even if it were at FA standard. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:58, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification, I was looking on this as a potential secondary source. This question is possibly beyond the scope of this noticeboard, but if these kind of investigative reports are to be treated as primary sources, then should any potential references to it in the article, theoretically, be through attribution, rather than stating its conclusions/interpretations in Wikivoice? PearlSt82 (talk) 03:22, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

One source can be both primary and secondary in different places. Photographs, interviews, etc., are primary. Geogene (talk) 03:23, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

That isn't what the linked footnote is saying in this case though, as it gives "investigative reports" as an explicit example of a primary source. Should this source's conclusions/interpretations be treated as primary or secondary? PearlSt82 (talk) 03:37, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

@PearlSt82, primary sources don't always require WP:INTEXT attribution. Consider the example about a painting in Wikipedia:Identifying and using primary sources: It'd be pretty silly to write something like "According to the painting, it is a painting of a cow's skull on a background of red, white, and blue". Or think about all the times we refer to track listings in music albums, or write basic plot summaries for novels and films. We use primary sources every day without even citing them, much less providing in-text attribution.

Whether this particular source should be used with in-text attribution depends mostly on what you use it for. When you use in-text attribution, you have to be careful that you're not falsely giving the impression that a widely held view is a minority one. It would be bad to say that "According to this one television show, pit bulls are a kind of dog", or even to say that "According to this one television show, some people think that pit bulls should be banned and others don't". That would leave people with the impression that only the one television show holds that view, and that nobody else thinks that a pit bull is a dog and nobody else thinks people hold different views, when we know that everyone believes that pit bulls are dogs and that there are debates about breed-specific legislation.

On the other hand, if you were citing it to make a statement about something that is unique (or at least unusual) to the specific source, then you should strongly consider in-text attribution. You would also want to consider whether that information was WP:DUE, because while there is a lot of information that might not be found in many/any other sources, most of that is not going to be part of an encyclopedic summary of a dog breed (e.g., the name of the little boy who was killed by his babysitter's dogs). WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:28, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for responding, my concern with this source being used is that it is stating in wikivoice there is a "pit bull lobby" spending millions of dollars to try to rebrand the public image of the dog. A later sentence in the paragraph piggybacks on this (from a different source) and implies (also in wikivoice) that the veterinary literature surrounding pit bulls has been corrupted by lobbyist money. Phrases like "the pit bull lobby" are almost exclusively used by conspiratorially minded blogs run by pro-BSL proponents, and I can't find any notion of a "pit bull lobby" in other sources, and the book Pit Bull: The Battle over an American Icon dismisses the notion as conspiracy theory by stating that Berkey was the woman Internet conspiracy theorists believe funded the all-powerful 'pitbull lobby'.. I know this is probably far beyond the scope of this noticeboard at this point, but I would certainly appreciate any uninvolved eyes at the article's talk page. PearlSt82 (talk) 14:19, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

• There are concerns that the article is too controversial to have an EL section, in part due to the risk of cherrypicking links. At the current time, it has an Further Reading section, which I think presents the same issues. Should that be removed? Geogene (talk) 03:26, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

I would support the removal of such a section, especially as currently written. PearlSt82 (talk) 03:37, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Attempt to add Cheng Lei's official CGTN profile (archived on the Wayback Machine) to Cheng Lei (journalist)

I attempted to add Cheng Lei (journalist)'s official CGTN profile (archived on the Wayback Machine) but the automated filter discourages it as CGTN is deemed an unreliable source in Wikipedia:Perennial sources. I was not citing CGTN as a reliable source but merely trying to link her profile so readers can see what the network said about her before her arrest.

Do I need to get some sort of consensus to add the EL in this circumstance? WhisperToMe (talk) 00:39, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

No, but it might be worth talking to the Wikipedia:Edit filter folks about whether they've got that filter written correctly. If it's possible to differentiate the types of links by the URL (e.g., "cgtn.com/news" rather than "cgtn.com"), then they should be writing that filter more narrowly. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:33, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

The way the filter is written is almost as strong as the spam-blacklist, with some rare/strange exceptions (bots are fine (why the heck a bot would add these sites to mainspace?), and copyvio-templates are fine (why, those can be just be mentioned in a non-linking way). I don't think we should override parts of sites, I don't think that we should exclude certain editors from the filter. Sigh. Turning the filter of to allow the edit and then turning it on again is going to harm anyone later who reverts vandalism on that page where the link got damaged/deleted.

This could all just be blacklisted where the whitelist can override the rare use like this one. But the former of that would need a consensus. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 12:30, 19 March 2021 (UTC)