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August 27

What's the root of the "Believe"/"#Believe"'s association with the town of Wigan?

• Believe Square,
• Believe talent fund (https://www.wigan.gov.uk/BeWell/Support-for-athletes/Believe-Talent-Fund.aspx),
• "Believe I'm only human" (https://www.wigan.gov.uk/Council/Believe/index.aspx)
• Believe Bus (https://www.wigantoday.net/sport/football/wigan-athletic-the-12th-man-lets-keep-the-pedal-to-the-floor-and-see-how-far-a-fully-gassed-believe-bus-can-take-us-4270010)

https://wiganathletic.com/news/2023/april/06/proud-to-believe-2023-24-wigan-athletic-season-tickets-launched-on-tuesday-11-april/ https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-manchester-32931942 https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/wigan-pride-2023-parade-times-27473623https://www.leighjournal.co.uk/news/23533418.keely-hodgkinson-honoured-believe-star-leigh-town-hall/ -Bogger (talk) 08:15, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

According to one of the links "Believe Square is a walk of fame established by Wigan Council to honour the achievements of Leigh's citizens." I've also solved the puzzle of "Wigan Pier" which perplexed me up to now. 2A00:23C3:FB81:A501:BCBF:4D79:2265:6609 (talk) 12:50, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

but why's it called Believe Square..? -Bogger (talk) 17:16, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

'Believe in Wigan' was a thing during the 2012-13 FA Cup, which Wigan won.[1] I don't know if that's where it originated, but it's probably had an oversized influence since then. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 18:04, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Also, according to this 2014 video, Believe Square is all about the FA Cup. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 18:35, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't know what "the puzzle of 'Wigan Pier'" is, but there is an article on it. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 21:58, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

It's an old local joke, made famous by George Orwell's The Road to Wigan Pier (1937) though the fame is evidently wearing off by now. Johnbod (talk) 22:06, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps I should have made it clear, I don't know what "the puzzle ..." is. As for Wigan Pier, it's a lot older that Orwell's book. Both George Formbys used it in their material and a number of sources for the original local joke have been posited. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 22:29, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

I assume the "puzzle" would be how a functionally landlocked town had a "pier". They don't even have a beach. As for "Believe" it's just a marketing slogan. Koncorde (talk) 15:08, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

So? I have a pool table, but I don't even have a pool. 136.54.106.120 (talk) 19:57, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Erwin Rommel

Had Rommel personally met Stauffenberg during the African campaign or in other circumstances? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.202.59 (talk) 14:10, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

There can be found a narrative according which such a meeting would have happened in Tunisia in 1943. Unless something more precise comes to be unveiled, it's an extrapolation after the tactical meeting of February 13, 1943 between the 5th armoured panzer commander Heinz Ziegler, general von Arnim, general Erwin Rommel, brigadier general Hans Seidemann, and the commanders of the 10th and 21th div panzer, brigade general von Broich and colonel Hans-Georg Hildebrandt, as von Stauffenberg was by then Oberstleutnant i.G. (lieutenant-colonel of the general staff), 10th panzer division. --Askedonty (talk) 18:25, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

According to de:Erwin Rommel they met February 19, 1943 near Sbeitla. Unfortunately the source cited there is not online and also there is no page given. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 17:01, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

I can't see a page number, but the passage is:

Stauffenberg hatte Rommel am frühen Abend des ersten Tages der Schlacht von Kasserine auf dem Divisionsgefechtsstand bei Sbeitla kennengelernt. Der Generalfeldmarschall — Hitler hatte ihm diese Ehre noch am Tag der Eroberung von Tobruk zukommen lassen — und sein Generalstabschef Bayerlein besprachen mit dem Kommandeur, Generalmajor von Broich, und dem Ia Stauffenberg die bevorstehenden Operationen. Der Erfolg hänge einzig und allein von der Schnelligkeit ab, erklärte Rommel; deshalb müsse grundsätzlich von vorn geführt werden, nur so ließen sich die notwendigen Anpassungen schnell ausführen. Die Vorgaben überzeugten Broich und Stauffenberg nicht weniger als Rommels kühnes Ziel, mit einem Angriff auf den Verkehrsknotenpunkt Tebessa »die ganze englische Front in Tunis zum Einsturz« zu bringen."

("Stauffenberg had met Rommel early in the evening of the first day of the battle of Kasserine at the divisional headquarters near Sbeitla. The Field Marshal – Hitler had given him this honor on the day of the conquest of Tobruk – and Bayerlein, his chief of staff, discussed the forthcoming operations with the commander, Major General von Broich, and the First General Staff Officer Stauffenberg. Success depended solely on speed, Rommel explained; that is why management must always be carried out from the front, as this is the only way to make the necessary adjustments quickly. Broich and Stauffenberg were no less convinced by the specifications than by Rommel's bold goal of "collapsing the entire English front in Tunis" by attacking the Tebessa transport hub.")

This is sourced to "DRZW, 8, 1106. Vgl. auch Lieb, Krieg in Nordafrika." (DRZW = Das Deutche Reich unde der Zweite Weltkrieg.)  --Lambiam 20:03, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Thomas Rolfe

Until his death, Pocahontas' son was a loyal servant of the crown or a supporter of the revolution? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.202.59 (talk) 14:13, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

One can say that Thomas Rolfe (1615–1680) died well before the American Revolution; however, the Timeline of the American Revolution begins with the Cambridge Agreement (August 29, 1629). He didn't seem to be politically motivated either way; there seems to be no evidence suggesting that he was involved in any revolutionary activities or that he was a loyal to the Crown. He lived as an Englishman and was mainly concerned with managing his land and with relations between colonists and natives. His political views may have been influenced by his English father, John Rolfe, who returned to Virginia, remarried and served a prominent role in the economic and political life of the colony until his death in 1622^[2] serving as secretary and recorder general of Virginia (1614-1619) and as a member of the governor's Council (1614-1622). But, even that doesn't establish a clear distinction between either John's or Thomas' loyalty to the Crown or to a (future) revolution of independence. -- 136.54.106.120 (talk) 16:11, 27 August 2023 (UTC) (with a little help from my friend, Perplexity AI copilot)

I meant the English Revolution who overtrow the Stuart.

The Glorious Revolution started in 1688, well after Rolfe's death. Furthermore, it only really started bubbling after Catholic James II ascended the throne in 1685. --ColinFine (talk) 20:46, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps the OP is thinking of the English Civil War, which was fundamentally a revolution and did, for a time, remove the Stuarts from England. Alansplodge (talk) 21:25, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Indeed, the one who killed Charles I. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.98.108 (talk) 21:26, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure that anybody knows if he supported any side in that conflict. You may be interested in The English Civil War and the American Connection (page 13/45 of the pdf) but that mainly concerns the Massachusetts Bay Colony. Alansplodge (talk) 11:42, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Jacques Clément, Jean Châtel, and François Ravaillac

For their birth dates (in 1567, 1575, and 1578), are there also the months and days? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.202.59 (talk) 14:25, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

As with many people born before the eighteenth century, their exact birthdates are unknown. Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:31, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

August 28

Charitable Trusts.

I have a question regarding the GST implications for a charitable trust's activities. Specifically, I'm wondering whether the activities carried out by a charitable trust would be considered as a 'business' under GST regulations. I understand that the definition of 'business' is quite broad in the context of GST, but I'm curious about how it applies to the charitable sector. Could anyone provide insights or references to relevant regulations or cases that address this matter? Grotesquetruth (talk) 11:07, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

For the curious, GST is either a general sales tax or a goods and services tax in numerous countries. Alansplodge (talk) 11:24, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

There are certain VAT exemptions for charities.[3] 2A02:C7B:229:3400:907D:F7C9:9140:71C6 (talk) 12:40, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

User:Grotesquetruth really needs to tell us what country he is asking about. Alansplodge (talk) 18:15, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

We don't answer (and may remove) questions that require medical diagnosis or legal advice. Is clarification of tax laws/regulations considered to be legal advice? Fork99 (talk) 23:29, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

IMO, supplying references to relevant regulations or cases is not giving advice.  --Lambiam 12:31, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

whether charitable trusts constitute a "business" under GST regulations of India? Grotesquetruth (talk) 09:35, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

india Grotesquetruth (talk) 09:38, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Answering might prealably require a study of Administrative divisions of India. Or at least it does seem like so: https://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/2022/jul/20/sparks-fly-at-all-party-meet-on-sri-lanka-crisis-as-jaishankar-hits-out-at-culture-of-freebies-2478436.html: "the government tried to draw parallels between the economic crisis there and the poor fiscal situation in Opposition-ruled states". After GST regulations then come the arcane definitions of charitable trust's activities -- Askedonty (talk) 11:15, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Photo of Medal of Honor recipient William Campbell

Hello. I believe this File:William Campbell (Medal of Honor).jpg may not actually be the person it says it is. I have further reasoning at the talk page of William Campbell. Given concerns, I don’t want people online to automatically think of it as him. Is there a way to change the photos meta data or add some kind of noticeable note saying “This may not be the person it claims”? I just want to make sure attribution is correct. Thanks in advance, from Clyde Jimpson of the Arkansas String Beans (talk) 19:18, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

The William Campbell in the photo is a different William Campbell (both Civil War MoH recipients). The William Campbell (Medal of Honor, 1838) was in the Navy, while this William Campbell was in the Army. -- 136.54.106.120 (talk) 20:20, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you! Either I got them switched up years ago or the website did. Is there a way to reassign it to the identify as the right person? Also I enhanced it for some reason so should I upload a new unedited version? Thanks in advance, from Clyde Jimpson of the Arkansas String Beans (talk) 22:05, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

The photo could go here: William Campbell (Medal of Honor, 1840). Also, a {{for}} tag is in order to avoid further confusion. Done IMO, the original image would be preferable; somebody over at the WP imaging place could probably do something with it (WP: Graphics Lab/Photography workshop). 136.54.106.120 (talk) 22:34, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

August 29

Rasputin

After his death, his family (wife, son, two daughters, and daughter-in-law) was remained loyal to the imperial family until the end?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.179.206 (talk) 22:40, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Wasn't this asked on March 21? --Error (talk) 23:09, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Most "little" people in history did not willingly express either loyalty or opposition to ruling regimes, regardless of their actual opinions: they kept quiet and hoped no-one would notice them, because being noticed could often lead to trouble, particularly if a regime were to change in the future. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.198.140.169 (talk) 01:54, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

• The OP asked the same question back in November, and it was answered. Here is the answer, for those wondering (including the OP). --Jayron32 11:05, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

dog parades

When the Coronation of Charles III and Camilla was bound to get underway, a parade of Cavalier King Charles Spaniels was held in a park. On the day of the Coronation of Elizabeth II, was there a parade of Pembroke Welsh Corgis held? Anyone know? 2603:7000:8641:810E:F028:5DAC:F0C4:F63B (talk) 02:38, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

There was a Corgi parade in October last year to mark the late Queen's passing, [4] but I couldn't find one in 1953. Alansplodge (talk) 12:04, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Soviet peoples response to German invasion

What were the Soviet public's attitudes towards German invasion, especially during the early months of the war? I'm particularly interested in the reaction of the people in Leningrad and how their attitudes changed as the war encroached. Not-so-heroic-polonaise (talk) 06:23, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Some peasants would have welcomed the Germans if they had abolished the hated collective agriculture institutions (kolkhozes etc.), but they didn't -- the Nazis were not too concerned with gaining a favorable opinion from Slavic untermenschen. As for Leningrad, there's a classic book in English, "900 Days" by Harrison Salisbury. The siege might not have been so severe if Stalin hadn't made bitter enemies of the Finns with his 1939 land-grab (a true pyrrhic victory)... AnonMoos (talk) 09:58, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Whatever Stalin's failures at the start of the war, he was successful in turning the invasion into a holy war for Mother Russia, even reopening many of the churches that he had shut down in the preceding decades. It was less successful in Ukraine where the memory of the Holodomor was still fresh. Alansplodge (talk) 12:13, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

I've been reading a lot about this period recently, and came across a passsage in a book about your query: but unfortunately I can't remember exactly where - you can't make a note of everything. The gist of it was that when the German armies first rolled into the Soviet Union in Operation Barbarossa they tended to be relatively well-disposed towards the civilian populace, e.g. re-opening previously closed churches and generally ecouraging normal behaviour under the circumstances. Some commanding generals were more benign than others, depending on whether they were whole-hearted Nazis or merely old-style military men more interested in winning a war than being beastly to the Slavs. I seem to remember that it was only when the occupying forces moved in behind the fighting army that the more oppressive behaviour occurred: see Order Police battalions of the Ordnungspolizei, Einsatzgruppen, and various Waffen-SS units. The Commissar Order to deal mercilessly with Soviet Commissars was signed in June 1941 before the German invasion had even begun. See also Collaboration in the German-occupied Soviet Union Byelorussian collaboration with Nazi Germany - Belarus wanted its own independence from the USSR, as did Ukraine - see Ukrainian collaborationism with the Axis powers. MinorProphet (talk) 16:52, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Side note: I have researched the use of the term "collaborationist" and was unable to find it used in an academic source discussing anything but Vichy France. If anybody knows of one I'd be intrested in hearing about it. In any event if the Vichy historians are right about this or have established this as convention, the Ukrainian article title above would be wrong. I do not have strong feelings on the matter and merely report. Elinruby (talk) 13:58, 30 August 2023 (UTC) PS- if the scope isn't limited to France, it means a fervent ideological collaborator, as opposed to a mayor trying to keep the electrical plant running, or your military men who just want to win the war. I suspect that many Ukranians were fervently anti-Soviet so that would be correct; I just think we should try for consistency one way or another Elinruby (talk) 14:11, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Anecdotal fwiw: someone Polish told me once that Napoleon Bonaparte is ok, maybe not a hero but at least favorably seen in Polish hisory. Because if you must have a caudillo you'd rather have one that has some interesting ideas about the fundamental rights of man and the citizen. I suspect World War II may have been like that also; the Holmodor as you say, and the ideology was of course much more murderous Elinruby (talk) 14:22, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Aha! I randomly came across the passage I remembered: "Barbarossa Revisited: A Critical Reappraisal of the Opening Stages of the Russo-German Campaign (June-December 1941)" Russel H. S. Stolfi. The Journal of Modern History Vol. 54, No. 1 (Mar., 1982), pp pp 34-5 https://www.jstor.org/stable/1906049.

"The attitude of the civilian populace toward the invading Germans was also a significant factor in the campaign. The consensus in historical writing, indeed, is that a more enlightened German occupation policy-stressing cooperation among the German people and the various ethnic groups in Soviet Russia, reestablishment and encouragement of individual peasant landholding, and destruction of the Communist bureaucracy, etc.-could have swung the war in favor of the Germans. During the initial onslaught, the Germans were greeted as liberators by the Baltic peoples and favorably received in many areas in the Ukraine. Even in White Russia and the Russian Soviet Federated Socialist Republic, many Russian communities greeted the advancing Germans as potential friends and liberators during the first three months of Barbarossa. It took the civilian National Socialist Reich Kommissars following the field armies several months to alienate the Ukrainian and Russian populace. A German offensive toward Moscow in mid-August 1941 would have been increased in effectiveness by the lingering friendliness and quiescence of the Russian population on the central front." MinorProphet (talk) 19:10, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

thanks so much, this pointed me in the right direction. Not-so-heroic-polonaise (talk) 06:44, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Hittite pork art

In this paper there are references to pigs in Anatolian art. "The “curious razor-back animal” published by Hetty Goldman in AJA 42 (1938) 46, fig. 38 and two pig rhyta mentioned in KUB 44.6 obv. 3' and 4', as well as the boar figures in precious metal included in the KI.LAM festival (Singer 1983:92-93) are among the few representations known to us." Any help finding these references? Temerarius (talk) 16:10, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

AJA 42 (1938) is the American Journal of Archaeology, volume 42. Lazy original citing, it's actually Volume 42, Issue 1 which reveals "Excavations at Gözlü Kule, Tarsus, 1937" by Hetty Goldman, pp. 30–54. Also available on JSTOR here, but my ancient browser can no longer cope with jstor's new website.

KUB 44.6 is de:Keilschrifturkunden aus Boghazköi, not to be confused with KBo, Keilschrifttexte aus Boghazköi. All I can find is this page which only details the refs in the articles, from this website. Almost no information is forthcoming about this publication - here are the very first two volumes from 1921 on archive.org, but after half an hour of increasingly frustrating round and round searching I can't find even a complete listing of all the volumes or any online archive at all. It was originally published in the DDR. Vol. 44.6 is probably one of a series of short monographs by the same author, possibly only 50 or so pages. A German bookseller or comprehensive archaeological library is perhaps going to be your best bet.

KI.LAM festival (Singer 1983:92-93) appears to be just that, The Hittite KI.LAM festival, 2 vols., Studien zu den Boğazköy-Texten, 0585-5853 ; Heft 27-28 ISBN 3447022434 by Itamar Singer, a revision of a Ph.D thesis. This may be available on JSTOR but again the website just shows up blank for me. Hope this helps. MinorProphet (talk) 18:32, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

The first one is this American Journal of Archaeology article. WP:RX can get it if you can't access full thing! 70.67.193.176 (talk) 18:33, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Fantastic work! Thank you so much! I do have access to the WP Library, but logging in to it and clicking through to JSTOR is not doing it. I've not yet found fluency in using WP library. Temerarius (talk) 01:26, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

As an alternative Temerarius, you can open a personal JSTOR account here. Alansplodge (talk) 11:36, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Aha! @Temerarius: Found a list of KUB volumes here p. XCI [pdf 91] in a list of Abbreviations from the HPM site reffed above. Volume 44 (XLIV) is Hethitische Rituale und Festbeschreibungen by de:Horst Klengel, Berlin (1973). There are a number of volumes with the same title, including Bd. 41, 46, 51, 54 (also by Klengel), 55, 58, & 59. Vol. 44 appears to be this one on G**gle Books, ISSN 0075-532X, ISBN 3-05-001291-9 and 978-3-05-001291-9. MinorProphet (talk) 22:59, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, and I'm having a hell of a time. When you look at these documents online, are you seeing the actual pictures of the pigs? Temerarius (talk) 00:27, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes for the one I found in American Journal Archaeology. It's a very tiny image that looks like a coin or button but it's called a Bulla. There are some symbols and above them an animal that does look like a pig, but with a sort of roman helmet brush sticking up all along its back. Can't really see tail area very well due to shadows. Hopefully the WP:RX folks can get you the article so you can have a look. Tried searching for the image on tineye but got no results. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 17:35, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

P.S. Can you see it in my tineye search? https://tineye.com/search/8eb53d01b5eb7befe6179732d1fe322de3b13f04?sort=score&order=desc&page=1 70.67.193.176 (talk) 20:46, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, the jpg is small, but the razor back looks clear! Thanks! Temerarius (talk) 04:22, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Yay, am so glad. It was just one tiny image in a grid of images. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 16:37, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Ethics / Philosophy Of The Criminal Justice System

Hi. Can someone please recommend any books or websites that cover the ethics and / or philosophies of the criminal justice system? It doesn't need to be the entire CJS and could cover particular topics, such as the criminal law itself, the police, the prison system etc. Thank you 2.100.99.86 (talk) 16:17, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

You didn't specify country or set of countries. USA law was originally based from England. 170.76.231.162 (talk) 16:35, 29 August 2023 (UTC).

Yes, good point. I suppose I'm thinking primarily of countries whose legal system derives from English law but within that bound I don't mind. 2.100.99.86 (talk) 16:37, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

It's primarily from an American context, but you may want to look into the work of Joanna Schwartz. I've seen several interviews with her on several different topics, and she seems to have a lot to say on ethics in various aspects of the American justice system. --Jayron32 16:41, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

I'd suggest *not* limiting it to the common law legal systems, which are based on case aw, which can be contradictory. The codification inherent in the civil law system has its own pitfalls, bureaucracy among them, but I for one increasingly see the value in a legal philosophy that is explcitly built on tenets like "no retroactive law", ie a person cannot be convicted of a crime for an action that was not illegal at the time it was committed. The law must also previously have been published and promulgated as law. This may seem blindingly obvious but by the time of the French Revolution there had been many abuses of feudal law in which the whims of a mad king could trump all other considerations. It is, if you think of it, a little alarming to consider a legal system in which the above are *not* fundamental principles. Or, if you want something that doesn't have as steep a learning curve as criminal justices in civil law (legal system), maybe you'dbe interested in the notion of rehabilitation vs punishment, or of educating juvenile offenders, which also would have some roots in philosophy. For the former, the crackdown on gang activity in Rio de Janeiro is a good case study, and the Brazilian legal system has a couple of pilot projects with respect to the latter. It would help to speak Portuguese of course, but English-language sources, especially English-language academic sources, are actually quite plentifulElinruby (talk) 01:52, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Our article is Ex post facto law. 2A02:C7B:124:3D00:1CC5:D261:5C82:CB76 (talk) 13:40, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

August 30

Exploring the Applicability of the 'Business' Definition in Indian Central GST Legislation to Charitable Trusts

Referring to the Indian Central GST legislation's definition of "business," I'm exploring whether charitable trusts fall under the "business" category according to the description provided below. I'm particularly curious about how this classification applies to the charitable sector.

The Central Goods and Services Tax legislation's Clause 17 defines "business" as follows:

"business" includes –– (a) any trade, commerce, manufacture, profession, vocation, adventure, wager or any other similar activity, whether or not it is for a pecuniary benefit; (b) any activity or transaction in connection with or incidental or ancillary to sub-clause (a); (c) any activity or transaction in the nature of sub-clause (a), whether or not there is volume, frequency, continuity or regularity of such transaction; (d) supply or acquisition of goods including capital goods and services in connection with commencement or closure of business; (e) provision by a club, association, society, or any such body (for a subscription or any other consideration) of the facilities or benefits to its members; (f) admission, for a consideration, of persons to any premises; (g) services supplied by a person as the holder of an office which has been accepted by him in the course or furtherance of his trade, profession or vocation; (h) [activities of a race club including by way of totalisator or a license to book maker or activities of a licensed book maker in such club; and]5 (i) any activity or transaction undertaken by the Central Government, a State Government or any local authority in which they are engaged as public authorities;" Grotesquetruth (talk) 14:33, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Charitable trusts have their own statutes. NPOs in India exist as trusts (Public charitable trusts, non revocable) , societies, and limited not-for-profit companies (I'm not sure trusts can exist currently otherwise than Public). NPOs provided Services: education and healthcare services are exempt under GST, income from some service activities are under exemption under a predetermined threshold limit. Regarding funding of the charity, provisions exist. --Askedonty (talk) 14:51, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

how are NPOs treated under Indian GST? Grotesquetruth (talk) 15:03, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

There is noone to be specifically treated under GST (that's a GST difference with many aspects of the other kinds of taxations). With GST activities are taxed with the exception of specific provisions related to the nature of the activity. For example, GST may be set differently between classes of products. In India, education and healthcare services are exempted if they are dispensed by charities. If someone behind makes profit out of these services that will be under taxation, if the law is to be enforced.

To put things otherwise, like a business as stipulated in sub-clause (a) any trade - above: not for pecuniary benefit, a NPO would become a GST producer, or supplier, just as any other, as soon as it would be supplying goods or services, or both, that are liable to tax or not wholly exempt from tax under the Central Goods and Services Tax Act or under the Integrated Goods and Services Tax Act: India Code, Central Goods and Services Tax Act, 2017 ( NPOs as well as corporations by the way deemed jurisdic persons under the Indian law, which must be explaining the definition of "business" the way it's done with Clause 17 ).<updated> --Askedonty (talk) 17:38, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

According to the Indian GST clauses, is there a specific exemption for education and healthcare services with the assumption that if they be dispensed by charities like you mentioned? Can these services provided by charitable organizations be exempt from GST, and would any profits made from these services be subject to taxation under the GST law? Grotesquetruth (talk) 17:26, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

In the GST clauses I think its specifies that "the government may enact such and such exception, for the public good", "to be approved by such assembly", etc. In fact, most of those taxation exemptions (educational etc) are only identical for their objects to exemptions specified in older legislations (1961) and other. As for profits, see the part <updated> above. --Askedonty (talk) 17:38, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

We do not offer tax or legal advice. Please seek professional advice. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 00:03, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Color wheel

Why do artists continue to use the ROYGBP color wheel and not the scientific RYGCBM color wheel?? Georgia guy (talk) 15:15, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Neither color wheel is "Scientific". The colors we use (and the names we give them) are a combination of linguistics, psychology, and aesthetics. Color itself is qualia, which is to say, it is a purely psychological phenomenon, with no real basis in physics. The color wheel is primarily a tool used by graphic designers and artists to aid in choosing color schemes for certain aesthetic effects. In that way, it is analogous to the circle of fifths for musicians; it is a visual aid that allows one to understand relationships to aid in composition and analysis. --Jayron32 16:23, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

But the circle of fifths has a basis in physics; a fifth is the frequency ratio 2:3. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 15:10, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, but that's not why it is useful. It is useful because it helps composers and musicians understand the relationships between notes, chords, and key centers so as to compose aesthetically pleasing music. Which is exactly why the color wheel is useful, it helps artists and designers choose color schemes to compose aesthetically pleasing visual art. --Jayron32 17:02, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

There is an article for ROYGBIP; should RYGCBM link somewhere? 136.54.106.120 (talk) 18:47, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Yeah I thought it was Roy G. Biv. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:E23B (talk) 18:52, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Your IP address tells me you're in California. I'm in the state of Victoria, Australia. I had never heard of Roy G. Biv until I met my wife, who grew up 1400 miles away in Queensland. We weren't taught any clever acronyms for remembering the colours. HiLo48 (talk) 08:27, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

User:HiLo48, I think you and I are of a similar age. I had my primary school education in NSW, and I have a clear memory of being taught about Roy G Biv. It regularly crops up in TV quiz questions, so that seems to assume people of all ages are aware of it. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:33, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

The questions on most Australian TV quiz show come from Sydney. HiLo48 (talk) 21:52, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Maybe, but I went to Catholic primary schools, whose teachers tended to be posted anywhere in the nation. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:30, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

I find it hard to believe that people of all age are still watching TV somewhere, even in Australia. --Askedonty (talk) 19:44, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Well, I watch some TV and I'm definitely a person of all ages. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:17, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, very interesting - Reminds me of that joke about a spider that was stucked inside the telescope. That might have been about the shift from ROY to RYG, which was previsible to the well connected (we small fry were to get fascinated by the ubiquitous label AC/DC on the black backside tag of the fridge's transistor radio, that could work on C batteries, compare with the vacuum tube type). --Askedonty (talk) 21:39, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

In England, it always used to be "Richard of York Gave Battle In Vain". Not sure that modern schoolchildren know who Richard of York was. Alansplodge (talk) 09:19, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Not always, in the reverse order they are "Virgins In Bed Give You Oral Relief". Martin of Sheffield (talk) 15:10, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

In that vein, I'm curious as to why the person who created the article went on to edit "Anal sex" three minutes later (although seeing the original version it's unsurprising). I never heard "Richard of York Gave Battle In Vain" till today, or of "Roy G. Biv." The source book in the article is American - we were taught "Read Out Your Green Book In Verse." The alternative version, in which the fourth word is changed, seems a tad disrespectful. 2A00:23A8:4015:F501:6D20:FFB9:EB08:D5A2 (talk) 16:25, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

I was just reflecting in my study, green had to be one of the Primary Colors: Natural Color System. Of course. --Askedonty (talk) 16:39, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

English North America in the Civil War

The discussion above about Thomas Rolfe made me wonder about English North America during the Civil War, and with great interest I found and read English overseas possessions in the Wars of the Three Kingdoms. The article discusses some colonies' support for the Parliamentary cause, and Parliamentary efforts to suppress royalist governments in some colonies, but it doesn't much discuss intercolonial relations. Was there fighting in North America between official forces or privateers of the different colonies (either before or after the regicide), or did they tend to tolerate each other? The article notes Virginia's desperate war with the Indians during the late years of the Civil War, and of course these civilised outposts were small and far separated from each other, but since some colonists returned to England to fight, I wondered if perhaps there was official strife between Royalist and Parliamentary colonies. The period conflict articles I've found are almost all against the Indians or foreign powers (e.g. Western Design), and the only exceptions are Plundering Time and Battle of the Severn, which appear to be a Maryland civil war, rather than warring between colonies. Nyttend (talk) 20:55, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

See also An Act for prohibiting Trade with the Barbadoes, Virginia, Bermuda and Antego. DuncanHill (talk) 21:35, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

I saw that already, but it was an action of Parliament (not any colonial legislature), and the article doesn't discuss the extent to which it was followed. Nyttend (talk) 21:44, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

I thought the background information in it about the ways the different colonies had reacted might be of interest. Sorry to have troubled you. DuncanHill (talk) 21:49, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

(edit conflict) There was a strong Puritan tradition in the colonies (think: Pilgrim Fathers) which would tend to make them align with Parliamentary forces. Remember that the Civil War was not simply about Crown versus parliament, but also the Anglican establishment versus a more fundamental Christianity. Indeed, one of my ancestors left England for the colonies during the early Stuart period (can't recall if it was James VI/I or Charles I), only to return under the Commonwealth when it was safe to do so. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 21:54, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

There was also a strong element of Protestantism v. Catholicism, with many in England being fearful of the Monarchy's marital connections to and tolerance of the latter. This was not just religious bigotry – the Catholic nations of Europe, encouraged by the Papacy, had long considered and occasionally attempted military invasions of Britain, which had they succeeded might have resulted in wholesale executions of Protestants. And yes, Catholics were also persecuted in Britain – the rivalry was lethally vicious at a level difficult to imagine today. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.194.81.165 (talk) 00:27, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

I have an idea that several prominent English families decamped to the American colonies to avoid paying ship money, the only tax that Charles could levy without the consent of Parliament and which was the spark that eventually ignited the war (see the Five Members). Something about taxation without representation. Alansplodge (talk) 09:18, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Presumably you're talking about the English Civil War. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:28, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Well, obviously. Everyone else in this discussion knows which civil war they're talking about. --Viennese Waltz 07:56, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Though not necessarily every reader of this section. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:55, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

You could easily have worked it out for yourself. Most of us seem to have done so without too much difficulty. --Viennese Waltz 10:10, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Which I did. I posted the link for the benefit of other readers. I could have changed the heading instead. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:01, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Which Civil War were you worried people might confuse it with? DuncanHill (talk) 17:21, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

You'd have to ask them. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:47, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

• Massachusetts Bay Colony#Colonial history has some information, as does Colony of Virginia#English Civil War and Commonwealth (1642–1660). Massachusetts Bay and Virginia were the two most significant colonies at the time, indeed many of the other of the original Thirteen Colonies were founded after the Interregnum. The narrative is predictable from what I know about colonial history, Massachusetts Bay broadly supported the Parliamentarians, being of the same Puritan tradition as many of them, while the Virginians tended to be supportive of the crown, indeed I hadn't thought of it, but the University of Virginia sports teams are known as the Virginia Cavaliers, belieing their loyalties during the conflict. Also see Virginia Cavaliers (historical). --Jayron32 14:15, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

  Also a little bit more in the article Province of Maryland. --Jayron32 14:17, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

See also the Battle of the Severn (Maryland, 1655). —— Shakescene (talk) 17:49, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, the Parliamentary side would have had no appeal at all for the Catholics in Maryland. On the original question, I imagine there was no actual fighting in North America, just as there was not in large parts of Britain. Most people were just thankful not to be involved, and enthusiasts could travel to where the armies were. Also the population was small and very spread out, not to mention with an Indian frontier. The big Parliamentary stronghold in the New World was Jamaica after Cromwell took it from the Spanish in 1655, and large plantations were handed out to Parliamentary sympathisers. Johnbod (talk) 16:08, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

August 31

Pétain's degradation

An interesting question has arisen about Philippe Pétain, the disgraced French former hero. Our article says "After his conviction, the court stripped Pétain of all military ranks and honours, including the distinction of Marshal of France", but later says that the title Marshal of France was "The sole award retained following his trial in 1945". The French article Philippe Pétain says he was stripped of the title, as does the French article Maréchal de France. I should thank @Ovenel: for noticing the problem and raising it at Talk:Philippe Pétain. So - what was it? Did the process of dégradation nationale strip him of the rank or title of Marshal of France or didn't it? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 11:14, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

• @Elinruby: @Mathglot: —— Shakescene (talk) 18:12, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Responded at Talk:Philippe Pétain, where further discussion should be addressed. Mathglot (talk) 18:32, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

@Mathglot: I asked here because over a month had passed on the talk page since it was raised there. Please can people answer here. DuncanHill (talk) 18:34, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

In my opinion, this is not the optimal location for discussing this. The proper venue for discussing a question directly related to the content of a Wikipedia article, is the talk page of the article. Reference desk can be used for off-Wikipedia questions, even questions unrelated to any Wikipedia article. While there is no prohibition for using it for something relating to a Wikipedia article, there is a disadvantage in doing so, in that the editors concerned with questions about Philippe Pétain won't necessarily find it here. Additionally, once this discussion is archived, it will be much more difficult to find if it's archived here, whereas if archived at the Talk:Philippe Pétain archives, the built-in archive search box at the top of the Pétain page will find it, but only if the discussion is held there. Mathglot (talk) 18:58, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Well, you are allowed to use the RefDesks to ask for references, which can then be used to improve articles. However, after wading through some of these, thereby severely testing my very rusty French comprehension, I have drawn a blank on the issue. Alansplodge (talk) 17:25, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

I concur with Alansplodge; the closing of the discussion by the OP, and their closing statement, is almost certainly a misunderstanding of what Mathglot was saying to them (even ignoring the fact that the answers by one person do not represent anything like standard procedure). Mathglots opinion on the use of the ref desks in this case is really just the feelings of one person, and the OP should have given them that much weight. Secondly, Mathglot is correct in the sense that article talk pages do have the advantage of preserving discussions of article content in close proximity to the page. The ref desk is a perfectly good place to attract attention to issues such as this, and I invite @DuncanHill: to reopen their discussion. There are could be other answers given by many other people than just Mathglot, and if Mathglots answer is insufficient for DuncanHill's purpose, they are not required to give it any heed. --Jayron32 18:22, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

The primary point of the Reference Desk is article improvement. Nyttend (talk) 20:11, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

(e/c, was typed after Jayron pinged me) Of course the RefDesk is a perfectly good place to ask, and answer, a question like this, and we have a long and honourable tradition of digging up sources to improve articles, often articles with moribund talk pages. Given that the question hadn't got a definite answer on the article talk page before I came here then this is probably a much better place than there. But some people are very protective of their articles, and I don't have the energy to deal with behaviour like Mathglot's anymore. Just close it down and walk away. If anyone else thinks it's an interesting question then they are of course free to ask it again. Petain was one of the most significant figures of two world wars, and our article's coverage of his trial and conviction is, to put it frankly, crap. I've never been one to stop people using the Desks for interesting questions, however outré. But please leave me out of it, and don't ping me. I took this page off my watchlist as soon as I hatted the thread, and it will stay that way till I decide I'm up to coming back. DuncanHill (talk) 20:19, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Claiming to be crazy

I have watching an Argentine TV series where the crimes of the bad guy have finally been proved, he has been captured and sent to jail (at the police station for the time being), he has no legal way to get out... so he started acting like a madman in the cell, talking in Gollum style as if he had a personality disorder, hoping that he would be diagnosed to be mentally ill and then sent to a madhouse instead of a proper prison.

I'm sure that it can't be so easy in real life. Is there an article about such a legal recourse, so I can compare it with the way the plot is unfolding? Cambalachero (talk) 16:14, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Sounds a bit like Vincent Gigante, for whom that ruse worked, at least for a while. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:59, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

See also Twinkie defense.  --Lambiam 18:51, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

See also M'Naghten rules, guilty but insane, fit to plead, criminally insane. DuncanHill (talk) 18:55, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

A fundamental principle underpinning most legal systems is the ability of a person to formulate criminal intent for an act prohibited in their legal code. In many Anglo-Saxon systems, this is known as the mens rea, and in the French penal code as the "moral element". This is why children are not held criminally liable, because almost all jurisdictions hold that they are unable to form criminal intent. The same question of intent applies to various mental disorders among adults, and is a thorny question. In French law, "imputability" is an attempt to define this, as the "ability of someone to recognize their action as being unlawful", and it appears that the Argentine penal code Title V – Imputabilidad deals with exactly the same topic, in particular, art. 34 §1. This appears to underlie the plot of the Argentine TV series, as you describe it. Mathglot (talk) 19:52, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

In the US we have United States v. Kantor (1987). See Strict liability_(criminal)#United_States. We could probably use an article about that case. What I'm getting at is that it wasn't litigated until fairly recently in US historical terms. Plus that was a circuit court decision: I've no idea what the current SCOTUS would say. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:6032 (talk) 03:07, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

WWII: Japanese-Americans in Japanese military

During World War II, were there any Japanese-Americans in the Japanese army and other military? 86.130.49.195 (talk) 19:47, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, Stranded: Nisei in Japan Before, During, and After World War II has some details. Alansplodge (talk) 09:53, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

And were they all placed in US concentration camps because of their race? 86.130.49.195 (talk) 18:55, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

That's improbable. Rather for reasons of the kind of blindness leading to preventive paranoia: "No sabotage by Japanese Americans has yet been confirmed, but it only proves a disturbing and confirming indication that such action will be taken." --Askedonty (talk) 19:15, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Aren't you confusing Japanese-Americans in the USA with Japanese-Americans in Japan that the OP was aking about? Alansplodge (talk) 12:17, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

I thought the OP was asking his race question about Japanese-Americans not serving in the Japanese army during WWII, and living in the US instead. The sentence "US concentration camps post WWII" was not leading in the Google search engine to results related to Japanese-Americans having served in foreign military. --Askedonty (talk) 19:04, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

In the WWII TV film Women of Valor, the POW camp commander Captain Nakayama spoke with an American accent. According to the female inmates, he was born in San Francisco and was studying in Japan when he was inducted into the military service. He mentions all Japanese-Americans had been placed in concentration camps because of the color of their skin. His parents chose not to endure that shame and chose to take their own lives. 86.130.49.195 (talk) 21:56, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

I doubt the level of detail is realistic. Here is one concrete case: [5], a young man who grew up in the land of plenty and was suddenly promised to a dull existence as someone who had been institutionally excluded. If I'm cold about it it's because I've been there - that counts too. Parents taking their own life and their children's because of the enemy coming is all around the world during WWII. --Askedonty (talk) 22:27, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

See also Kawakita v. United States Eliyohub (talk) 15:05, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

September 1

Uranium City output

Hi. I was reading about Uranium City and how it's not connected by road to the rest of Canada. There is only a seasonal Winter road.

Back when the Uranium mines were actively producing, how did the products get shipped to the outside world?

My wild guesses are:

1. The ore is processed/refined, and the refined product is air-lifted out.

2. The product is stored throughout the year, and is only transported by trucks during the winter months. Helian James (talk) 18:11, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm almost certain the answer is the second one. This says that Lake Athabaska-area uranium ore is all transported by truck to Saskatoon, likely merely a collection point, from whence it is sent on to other locations for processing and refinement. --Jayron32 18:17, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you!Helian James (talk) 18:41, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Note that river barges are also commonly used for transport up north when winter roads cannot be used. That would also be a practical way of moving bulky product like uranium ore. Xuxl (talk) 15:17, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Resolved

September 2

Anarchism

What caused anarchism to get less popular? (at least in America). Did states start to seem not so bad after seeing the relative successes of anarchism vs USSR? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 02:22, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

What's the basis of your premise that anarchism was ever "popular" in America? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:00, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

It wasn't but more popular than it was before or since. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:03, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Who says so, besides you? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:35, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

[https://newint.org/features/2011/06/01/anarchism-explained Anarchism had its 'golden age' during the early decades of the 20th century.] Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 14:45, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Anarchists are better dreamers than doers. A successful movement requires compromise, organization, and leadership to actually get things done.^[6]

See also: History of anarchism, e.g. [Delo Truda] considered that a lack of organisation was a basic reason of why anarchism had failed [in USSR].

This might be of interest:

• Madison, Charles A. (1945). "Anarchism in the United States". Journal of the History of Ideas. 6 (1): 46–66. doi:10.2307/2707055. ISSN 0022-5037.

-- 136.54.106.120 (talk) 04:19, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

How ironic, failed from too little organization. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:15, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Around the turn of the 20th century, Italian anarchism helped give anarchism as a whole a bad name in the United States. See article Galleanisti for a list of some of their actions in the United States, culminating in the infamous 1920 Wall Street bombing, which almost certainly had an Italian anarchist connection. In many people's eyes, they shot, stabbed, poisoned, and blew up stuff out of pure nihilism, and no other reason. Also, the gusto with which Spanish anarchists killed priests, nuns, and bishops in Spain in the 1930s didn't do much for the reputation of anarchists in the United States... AnonMoos (talk) 05:00, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps Anarchism and public relations are uneasy bedfellows? Alansplodge (talk) 12:19, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm sure that Kropotkin style "mutual aid" would not have developed a strongly negative reputation on its own, but when it was subsumed under the broad umbrella of "anarchism", the negative PR generated by one group could taint the public's image of anarchist groups and trends as a whole. The stereotypical cartoon character of the short man with a large beard holding a spherical bomb with a lit fuse summed up many people's view of Italian anarchism by the time of the Wall Street bombing... AnonMoos (talk) 18:58, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

This killing was supposed to be propaganda and snowball into successful revolution right? Really tone deaf. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:41, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

For some historical context, see Propaganda of the deed § Anarchist origins. It should be reealized (a) that the oppression of socialists and anarchists in these days was much more open and violent than today, as seen in several State-sponsored massacres of non-violent protests; and (b) that assassinations of specifically targeted oppressors were the order of the day, so to speak, and by no means reserved to anarchists.  --Lambiam 17:48, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Oppressor according to who? Lincoln, Theodore Roosevelt and FDR weren't perfect but are generally considered to be in the better presidents and assassins targeted them anyway. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 18:47, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Arguably, if one think a particular institution is inherently or usually 'bad', then an exceptional 'good' leader or figurehead of it merely whitewashes the 'bad' thing and delays its abolition, so while personally 'good', they are helping to perpetuate long-term 'badness'.

Of course, different people also have radically different ideas of what is 'bad' and what is 'good'. As a separate issue, they also tend to confuse agreed-on 'good' ends with honestly held different ideas about means to get there. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.194.81.165 (talk) 09:25, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Also, Empress Elisabeth of Austria wasn't personally considered "oppressive" by anarchist Luigi Lucheni; he said that he just wanted to assassinate "any sovereign" and become "an immortal martyr of the anarchist movement".^[7] -- 136.54.106.120 (talk) 20:38, 2 September 2023 (UTC) . . . Another irony: Sisi is much beloved to this day; who remembers Luigi Whats-his-name?

Yikes, these replies. The fact of it is that in America, like in many places, anarchism was pretty ruthlessly repressed. In the USA after Haymarket affair, in Paris after the Paris Commune, in the USSR after the Russian civil war, etc. In particular, the outcome of the Spanish Civil War had an impact, not to mention that the Nazis famously first came for the socialists and trade unionists (First they came ...). Furthermore, the end of monarchies across Europe, the success of individual work reform aims like the eight-hour day, the decline of the power of the institutional church, and the general increase in living standards after WWII all served to make the cause less urgent for many. -- asilvering (talk) 10:49, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps a surge of nationalism surrounding World War One might have a bit to do with the lack of interest in anti-nationalistic anarchism. Also, a general improvement in the economy by the mid-1920s probably should not be dismissed out of hand. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 22:47, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Two "Age of Discovery" questions

A random thought last night piqued my curiosity:

1) I know there's some evidence that the Vikings crossed the Atlantic by stopping at Iceland and Greenland. When were the first ships constructed that would have been physically capable of conveying a crew across the Atlantic without stopping? What technologies or societal capabilities were necessary to make this possible?

2) I know that it's strongly theorized that North America was initially populated from Asia via the Bering Strait (possibly via a land bridge during an ice age). I also know that at the time of Columbus' voyage across the Atlantic, there was some amount of trade and exchange of ideas between Europe and the "Far East", even if it was slow and arduous due to the overland routes. Were any of the peoples of northeast Asia in the 15th C aware of the existence of the North American continent? And were these peoples engaged at all in trade with Europe? It seems like it would have been very possible (if not necessarily easy or fun due to the climate) for someone from that region to follow the coast around and sail across the Bering Strait and then return.

Thanks! -- Avocado (talk) 13:09, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

See article Knarr for the longest-range ship the Vikings had. I don't know whether it was technically capable of crossing the wider Atlantic at lower latitudes -- that would have involved leaving areas of Scandinavian culture far behind (as opposed to the Norway-Faroes-Iceland-Greenland-Vinland route). The inhabitants of the Chukchi Peninsula always knew about the part of North America closest to them, but such knowledge didn't start becoming accessible to the Russian state until the mid-17th-century Dezhnev expedition. AnonMoos (talk) 15:24, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Was the lack of shared knowledge from the Chukchi Peninsula just due to sparse settlement and relative isolation in that period because of the geography? -- Avocado (talk) 18:12, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Did they think the New World mainland was freaking huge or much smaller than it was or part of the landmass they were on or would they have said they have no idea? Did they have any mythology of the unknown part? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 19:36, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

1) The early European explorers such as Bartolomeu Dias and Christopher Columbus used caravels, which were originally developed for offshore fishing and coastal cargo carrying and gradually enlarged to allow a larger load. By the time the Age of Discovery began, they could be used as they were already.

2) The Chinese culture was adverse to exploration; by 1500, it had become a capital offence to build a seaworthy junk with more than two masts (see Chinese exploration § Indian Ocean and beyond). Japanese exploration was nonexistent. It is unlikely either civilization ventured close to or was even aware of the Bering Strait or St. Lawrence Island (first European visit by Vitus Bering in 1728). (If they knew about it, it was a successfully guarded secret.)  --Lambiam 17:27, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

1) Oh, "caravel" is familiar from Civilization (series) -- where, ironically, they're generally limited to sailing within sight of land. That article led me to Iberian ship development, 1400–1600. Neither goes super into depth about the way the technical developments added to the ships' capabilities, but I feel a little better informed now.

2) And that's fascinating to learn about the limitations on exploration in China. What reasons existed for prohibiting such shipbuilding? -- Avocado (talk) 18:08, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

New emperor wanted to stop. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 20:04, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Evidently. But what reasons could he have had for wanting them to stop? -- Avocado (talk) 23:30, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

See China#Isolationism and the links from it. Broadly, The Chinese establishment, embodied in the Emperor, preferred stability over progress and (rightly) feared that foreign contacts and influences could destabilise China's social structure: since they were at the pinnacle of that structure, they did not want this. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.194.81.165 (talk) 05:03, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

51, that anchor didn't resolve for me. Haijin is the most specific article we have on the phenomenon, and lands squarely in my weakest time period as a Chinese history person, so I have no further information from background knowledge. Folly Mox (talk) 18:35, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Polynesian peoples, although nowhere near the Atlantic, made very long sea voyages between distant islands and reached South America and (probably) returned about 700 CE. See Polynesian navigation and waka hourua.-gadfium 21:03, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Ooh, very cool. That information about navigational techniques is fascinating. Do we know whether knowledge of the visits to South America been retained / passed down (or perhaps the voyages had been repeated) since 700 CE? Also: How much were any of these groups in contact with Europeans in the 15th C? -- Avocado (talk) 03:06, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

See Pre-Columbian transoceanic contact theories. There's no retained knowledge, but there's genetic evidence of human contact, and the sweet potato is a food from the Americas widely distributed in Polynesia, though theories differ how it arrived there. European explorers passed through the Pacific in the early 16th century-gadfium 03:20, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Let's be careful not to attribute to culture and aversion to exploration when the actual reason was the arbitrary (?) decision of a single (?) man. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 22:52, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

September 3

The Garden of Earthly Delights

Resolved

 – 136.54.106.120 (talk) 01:33, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

The right panel of Bosch's triptych features a number of musical instruments. Although fanciful, most seem to be based on actual instruments. The big one near the middle (of the detail linked above) has me stumped, however. Is it completely fabricated from the surreal mind of the artist, or is there an actual instrument similar to that? -- 136.54.106.120 (talk) 00:41, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Looks like a Hurdy-gurdy - very common then and for much later. Johnbod (talk) 00:59, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it is one - apparently the first image showing the "buzzing bridge" feature. Johnbod (talk) 01:19, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! That's a new one for me. -- 136.54.106.120 (talk) 01:33, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Here in the UK, I've seen hurdy-gurdies played by street buskers and at music festivals within the last five years. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.194.81.165 (talk) 18:49, 3 September 2023 (UTC)