Talk:Libro d'Oro

The entry is incoherent.

It starts by referencing nobility in the Republic of Venice (697–1797), but the history section describes it as founded in 1896. A clearer explanation of the pre-1896 history (ie, of the original Venetian institution) is necessary.

Stud book is a book for animals not humand beings

Whomever keeps putting in stud book, is wrong. Nothing even in the article of stud book pertains to a human being, and more over, the Libro d'Oro was NOT a book to establish breeding in any sort of way, it is NOT a book to say one has some sort of special pedigree, is was a book to establish what political rights a family had in terms of what their title gave them, and it only became relevant in terms of marriages in order to make sure that they were following the laws that were set in place to retain legal rights that their title awarded them. Using "stud book" in this manner for this article is not objectively accurate and is sarcasim- also factually, the context is wrong, Libro was maintained in Corfu etc. because it was a colony of Venice and Venetian nobles were residing there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.141.156.193 (talk) 22:29, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Then place it into the article with a reference. An intention of the Golden Book was ccertainly to record the genealogy of noble families, in ecactly the same was a stud book records the pedigree of highly bred race horses, and this is it purpose today. Giano (talk) 06:16, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

The first guy is right. The Libro d'Oro is not some book to record genetic traits in order to "breed" a human being in a certain way, which is what a stud book is trying to establish for animals, a lineage of breeding. The Libro d'Oro was a book that recored what policitcal rights a family had, and at that time, political rights had laws of marring other people who fell into the same category of political rights, otherwise they lost their own political rights- so people who were about to marry had to check the background of potential mates to make sure that they were marring someone in accordance with the law. If a royle married a noble, the child was called "morgantic" which meant it had no succession rights and just became noble, no longer royal. If a noble married a commoner, their child would loose all titular privledges period. Therefore people used the book to establish legitimacy. Many nobles and royals resented these marring laws themselves- thereby marring appropriately, but then sharing their lives with someone they actually wanted to be with.Geniejargon (talk) 19:53, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I think you are a little confused here - "Therefore people used the book to establish legitimacy" - so it was not a "lineage of breeding."? and then you say: "Many nobles and royals resented these marring laws themselves- thereby marring appropriately, but then sharing their lives with someone they actually wanted to be with" - who do you suppose made these rules and laws? Giano (talk) 21:35, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

• So how do you explain, Thomas Jefferson, who he himself believed that slavery was wrong, yet had slaves himself and wasn't able to stop it. Systems that are in place are bigger than any individual person. When these laws were put into place, it was a primitive world, with 90%+ of the population illiterate, they were laws that made sense in the middle ages and a pre-modern world. The very reason that America was able to do what it did, in terms of a revolution, was because of the enlightments and industrial revolution, creating a new class of people, bougeoise, that were educated but not nobles, and had skills to govern. Many nobles, i.e. Marquis Lafayette and others, were very happy to the rise of non-nobles through education and wanted to see a world without such restrictive marriage clauses. Many nobles themselves, were behind the push to see people become more educated so they would have abilities to rule. An illiterate person has no skills to govern. Your simplistic world's view is not based on reality.Geniejargon (talk) 21:57, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Whatever? I think you are confusing the rules governing the marriages of Germanic and Austro-Hungarian aristocrats with the less stringeant rules governing the aristocracy of the more southern European countries, and Britain. In Italy so tolerant were the rules it was not uncommon for cicisbei to be part of the contract. However, even in in the Italian States 16 quarterings were/are of use, and the Libro d'Oro was certainly recording "lineage of breeding" for this purpose. I am unsure what the point you are trying to make is. Incidentally, you talk of the middle ages, Il Libro d'Oro della Nobiltà Italiana is stil published why do you suppose that is? Giano (talk) 22:07, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Assertions about the current publication

Interesting assertions about the present Libro d'Oro were inserted here but reverted. If any of these assertions can be presented as a report of a published source, they might be returned to the article.--Wetman (talk) 03:50, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

I am an expert about Italian nobility and in the history of books of reference about the italian aristocracy.

What is reported in the above link is true, but was quickly erased by an "anonymous" user.

I think that would be very better to translate this page from the italian version of WP: the italian version is very more correct and, of course, is located in the Italian version of wikipedia http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libro_d%27oro_della_nobilt%C3%A0_italiana_(periodico)

The page, in italian version, was blocked because, in Italy, there was an anonymous (which is the same man that wrote here, in en.wikipedia, a fake italian noble I think): this man continually go to repeat and put into the page the incorrect & inaccurate informations about this private book (in this book also this fake noble was published, of course).

In Italian version the block of page was decided by various admin after a very very very long edit war started by this fake italian noble, or duke, as you prefer (for more info see "wiew history" in italian version and the big lot of nickname banned users: really the same person, of course!).

In italian version you can found also a disambiguation page about the official and the unofficial "Libro d'Oro della Nobiltà Italiana": for more info see http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libro_d'oro_della_nobilt%C3%A0_italiana

--Contebragheonte (talk) 17:16, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

fake

please be aware: the repeated insertion [here] made by user "Contebragheonte" are fake, spam, self-promotion, self advertising, in the intent to promote a complete differente new publication holding the same name of the historical one. The user is the editor of this new publication, and the same as the user "Torean - capricorn" that inserted here a lot of fake informations to try to discredit what he see as the rival publication. Please patrol those two voices. Thanks.--Ersormarchese (talk) 11:17, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

This page is on my watch list and I am watching it very closely indeed. I know exactly what is going on - I'm afraid, if you are not in the Libro d'Oro, you are bogus and Wikipedia is poweless to change that - so pack it in. Giacomo Returned 18:14, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

I totally agree with your asertion Giacomo: "if you are not in the Libro d'Oro, you are bogus and Wikipedia is poweless to change that - so pack it in!Italic text", To understand what happen here, please read below...--Larastabata (talk) 20:56, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

troll at work

troll at work: user "A curious reader" aka "Contebragheonte" aka "Torean - capricorn" etc. etc. is a fake baron; he hate the Libro d'oro because, as he is a fake noble, the libro d'oro ever refused to publish him: check http://www.caccialavolpe.it) On the contrary, he try to "advertise" the "Annuario" because, as a dubious publication, it - the only one! - published him as a fake pubblication, asserting it is the same historical "Annuario" that HAS NOT BEEN PUBLISHED SINCE 1905 (!)check http://www.caccialavolpe.it)--Larastabata (talk) 13:12, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

And the most ridiculous is that he try to "invent" a "new" okus-bogus-fake-ridiculous "Libro d'oro" named "Regio Libro d'Oro" to put in it ... himself (!!!) once again check here http://www.caccialavolpe.it/index.php?p=regiolibrodoro !--Larastabata (talk) 13:31, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Golden Book of Italian nobility

More recent "Golden Book ..." article (2012) is poor translation of Italian Wikipedia article, but appears to be on the subject already covered in the 2005 article at "Libro d'Oro" PamD 09:14, 18 May 2014 (UTC)  Done Klbrain (talk) 21:02, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

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This article needs disambiguation or to be split in two.

It focuses mainly on an incarnation of a Libro d'Oro rather than on the concept. Such books were common in many locations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by VenetianNobility (talk • contribs) 08:04, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

This article is a disaster

This Wikipedia article is a disaster. In several places, the authors confuse the official register of the Italian state with a private publication of the same name, which has been warned against using the name of the same register since 1932. The page is therefore seriously flawed and gives false and misleading information. In the Italian version everything is clearer and the two entries: Golden Book of the Italian Nobility (official register) and Golden Book of the Italian Nobility (periodical) are correctly described and disambiguated. I reproduce below the links of the two pages to the Italian Wikipedia and a translation without putting much effort. I leave it to others to disambiguate the entries and correct the errors.

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libro_d%27oro_della_nobilt%C3%A0_italiana

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libro_d%27oro_della_nobilt%C3%A0_italiana_(periodico)

The Libro d'oro della nobiltà italiana is a private and unofficial publication containing anagraphic and biographical data of some Italian noble and notable families[1], published with irregular periodicity under the auspices of the Collegio heraldico - Istituto araldico romano[2], until 2010 by the individual publishing house Roberto Colonnello Editore, owned by the then hereditary Secretary General of the Association, Roberto Colonnello Bertini Frassoni, since 2014 by the Ettore Gallelli publishing house, which in fact formally took it over with the registration at the General Public Office for works protected by copyright, dependent on the Italian Ministry of Culture (art. 103 L. 633/1941).[3].

It is one of several publications on the book market on the subject and should not be confused with the official register of the same name, compiled by the Heraldic Consulta of the Kingdom of Italy.

Contents Index 1 History 2 Characteristics of the first series of the magazine (1910-1932) (I - X edition) 3 Characteristics of the second series of the magazine (1933-1939) (XI - XII edition) 4 Characteristics of the third series of the periodical (1940-2010) (XIII - XXIV issues) 5 The two fourth series of the periodical (2014/2016 -) 6 Characteristics of the two fourth series of the Work 7 Criticism 8 Disputes between competing publishers 9 Disputes with the Italian State for the protection of the title "Golden Book of the Italian Nobility 10 Notes 11 Related entries

History After the first series of the Annuario della Nobiltà Italiana ended in 1905, the first edition of the Libro d'Oro della Nobiltà[4] appeared in Rome in 1910, edited by the Collegio heraldico, at the instigation of the secretary of the same association, Carlo Augusto Bertini, later Bertini Frassoni, already a contributor to the first series of the Annuario della Nobiltà Italiana[5], with subsequent editions every two or three years until the 1930s, when the Presidency of the Council of Ministers issued a decree inhibiting the use of the name "Libro d'oro," since it was the same as that of an official state register and this risked causing confusion among readers.

The name change resulted in the end of the first series, which ended in 1932 with the 8th edition.

The 1933-36 (printed in 1935) and 1937-39 (printed in 1939) editions were in fact titled "Book of Italian Nobility" by removing the word "d'oro" from the title and constituted the second series of the publication.

However, after the suspension of publication due to wartime events, between 1939 and 1949, the work resumed publication under the same name as the official document, again with irregular periodicity, giving rise to the third series with the 10th edition[6][5].

In 2005, Roberto Colonnello Bertini Frassoni, "in his own right and as owner of the eponymous sole proprietorship", who in his capacity as "Secretary General of the College of Heraldry (...)" sued before the Court of Milan, specialized business sections, Andrea Borella, "in his own right and as owner of the eponymous sole proprietorship". Andrea Borella, in his own right and as owner of the company, complained that the defendant, as editor and publisher of the "new series" of the Yearbook of the Italian Nobility, that the defendant, as editor and publisher of the "new series" of the Yearbook of the Italian Nobility, has unlawfully extracted and reused for this activity substantial parts of the contents of the Golden Book of the Italian Nobility, as well as slavishly copied numerous parts of the Golden Book, thus infringing the plaintiff's sui generis right as a database producer and, at the same time, the copyright of the relevant publication as a literary work: The Secretary General of the College of Heraldry, Roberto Colonnello, asked the Tribunal to ascertain these alleged infringements and to adopt the appropriate injunctive and sanctioning measures, including the destruction of the printed copies and the withdrawal of the Yearbooks from commerce. After an adversarial procedure, the Court of Milan, in its judgment no. 12659 of 23 June - 28 October 2008, rejected the claims of the Secretary General of the Araldic College, Roberto Colonnello. The Secretary General of the College of Heraldry appealed against the judgment of the first instance and requested that it be reviewed. The appeal judgment, which confirmed the first instance judgment and ordered the Colonel/Secretary of the College of Heraldry to pay the costs of the proceedings, was delivered and, in the absence of an appeal for cassation, became final in 2012[8] . A series of events followed that, in less than two years, led to the closure of the College of Heraldry and the withdrawal of Colonel Bertini Frassoni himself from the management of the Golden Book of Nobility[9]. In the course of the trial, a series of facts and evidence were presented which showed that "the name Libro d'Oro actually belongs to the Italian State, as it was the title of the original register of the nobility of the ancient Kingdom and is preserved in the official State archives: in the 1930s, the Italian Government ordered the publisher to stop using the name, but at the time it was assumed that the name had been separately and previously approved by a Cardinal on behalf of the Holy See. It now appears that this was not the case, and it is claimed that the cardinal never existed and that the claim of this approval was falsified"[10].

 In fact, at the beginning of 2014, Roberto Colonnello Bertini Frassoni, Secretary of the College of Heraldry, announced the dissolution of this association and, consequently, the suspension of the publication of the Golden Book, which had last appeared under his editorship four years earlier, in 2010, with the XXIV edition of the third series[11].

Characteristics of the first series of the magazine (1910-1932) (I - X edition) About 3,000 different families were published in the first series of the work, representing only a small part of the families registered in the official Italian noble lists. In the second part of the work some papal titles (after 1870), some titles of the Republic of San Marino not recognized by the Kingdom of Italy and families of heterogeneous origin found publication.

Characteristics of the second series of the periodical (1933-1939) (XI - XII edition) In the second series of the work, whose title was changed to "Book of the Italian Nobility", the same families were published as in the first series.

Characteristics of the third series of the work (1940-2010) (XIII - XXIV edition) In the third series of the work, whose title was again changed to "Golden Book of the Italian Nobility", essentially the same families were published as in the first and second series. In the third series of the work, whose title was again changed to "Libro d'Oro della Nobiltà italiana", essentially the same families were published as in the first and second series. Until the editorship of Raul Bertini Frassoni, who died in 1974, the families listed in the official Italian nobility lists and those whose nobility was derived from other sources were kept separate. The second part also included some notable families, i.e. non-noble but possessing the coat of arms of citizenship, and other families.

The first series of the work included almost 1,900 families treated in full,[12] while the website of the Collegio heraldico, the apparent publisher of the work, stated that there were about 2,500 noble families, for each of which there should have been a brief historical note, updated family status and coat of arms in black and white[13][14]. Despite what was reported these are only a part of the families registered in the official lists of the Kingdom of Italy, i.e., those who sent the College of Heraldry their updated personal status by adhering to the proposed purchase of the work; in addition to them there are families recognized by the association of the Body of Italian Nobility, or by the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, or by the Republic of San Marino. As stated in the coupons of subscription and accession to the work, the inclusion of a family was conditional on the family sending the data and subscribing with advance payment for at least one copy[15]. Since, in addition, periodic data entry and updating is done by the families themselves[16], the actual list does not meet the criteria stated in the preface of the work[14] and has omissions and inaccuracies[17]

According to the indications in the work, families belonging to the latter three groups should have been indicated by a dot, which, however, is not always actually present; similarly to the official lists of 1921 and 1933, only those families listed in the official Golden Book should be indicated with asterisks, while sometimes branches and families that did not obtain this recognition are. In addition to the previous types of families, there are others not included in the official lists of the Kingdom of Italy and not recognized by the Corps of Italian Nobility, or the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, or the Republic of San Marino, included at the discretion of the editors. Various families were given noble titles that do not appear in the official Italian nobility lists, thus making them not adhere to the compilation criteria declined in the introduction of the works themselves. Families also appear that are extraneous to the compilative criteria stated at the beginning of the volumes[12][6]

The two fourth series of the work (2014/2016 -) After a four-year hiatus, in September 2014, a company created for the purpose in Turin, with different headquarters and components, called Libro d'Oro s.r.l.,[18] set as its program the resumption of publications with the launch of a new series of the book. However, the series had already been resumed by Ettore Gallelli Editore since 2014, with the publication in March 2014 of a new edition of the Libro d'Oro, the XXV since its foundation in 1910[19] and the creation of a new Collegio Araldico based in Rome[20]. Both editions of the two rival publishers follow the numbering of the first serial edition and continue it. However, the contents of the volumes differ. The last edition of the work was XXV, published in 2016 by Libro d'Oro srl and in 2014 by Ettore Gallelli Editore. In 2017 the first special edition (single volume in color) was published, on the occasion of the commemoration of the death of the first president of the Collegio Araldico Romano (Count Capogrossi Guarna 1907-2017), published only by Ettore Gallelli Editore. The XXVI edition was published in 2020 by Ettore Gallelli Editore,[20] while as of today (January 2022) the publication date of the same edition published by Libro d'Oro srl is unknown.

Characteristics of the two editions of the fourth series of the work. The Golden Book of the Italian Nobility, edited by Ettore Gallelli (2014-): At the beginning of 2014, at the insistence of some members of the extinct College of Heraldry of Via Santa Maria dell'Anima no. 16, of the many subscribers and of the many connoisseurs of the subject, the Ettore Gallelli publishing mark was adopted and regularized, in accordance with the law, under the heading LIBRO D'ORO DELLA NOBILTA' ITALIANA-NUOVA SERIE CORRENTE, with deposits and variants in the appropriate competent legal offices, by registering it with the General Public Office for Works Protected by Copyright[21], thus acquiring all exclusive editorial, graphic and typographic rights, and launching the present new current series, registered in March 2014 and launched at the end of July 2014 with edition XXV (2015-2019)[22]. According to the publisher's website, Gallelli-EDITORE "is therefore the only one authorized by the Ministry of Cultural Heritage and Activities to use the name Libro d'Oro della Nobiltà Italiana-nuova serie corrente, registered by him and published in July 2014"[22]. The families included since the first edition, published by Gallelli Editore, have been increased by the recovery of many families already present in the official lists of nobility of the Kingdom and previously omitted.

The Golden Book of Italian Nobility published by Libro d'Oro srl (2016-): In the 2015-2019 edition, which appeared in June 2016, straddling an urgent seizure action promoted by the Avvocatura dello Stato,[23] 1997 noble families are published, for each of which there is a brief historical note, the family status-not always updated punctually-and the coat of arms in black and white with its blazoning; for another 3859 families there is a reference to the previous series of the work, which thus listed, at least by citing them, a total of about 5800 Italian noble families: for the vast majority of families not treated extensively the citation, or the cross-reference, consists of the inclusion of only the surname and principal titles, without any other data. Since there were about 13,267 families listed in the Official Lists of the Kingdom of Italy, it therefore means that more than half of the lineages that would also be entitled to be listed there and are instead listed in the Official Lists of the Kingdom were never even mentioned[24][25]. The families included in the first series and in the second series edited by Libro d'Oro srl, are, therefore, less than half of the families registered in the official lists of the Kingdom of Italy, i.e., those who sent their updated personal status to the Heraldic College by adhering, for the first series, to the proposal to purchase the work and, for the second, by paying the expected editorial contributions; in addition to them there are some families recognized by the Association of the Body of Italian Nobility, some families recognized as noble by the Sovereign Military Order of Malta and still others from the Republic of San Marino absent from the Official Lists and thus to be subtracted from the total number of 5800 families mentioned in the editions. Basically, the families included since the first edition edited by Libro d'Oro srl have remained the same as those already present in the editions edited by the Collegio Araldico and, therefore, families already present in the Official Noble Lists of the Kingdom are still absent.

 Criticism

Currently, while Ettore Gallelli Editore, which from the beginning guaranteed absolutely free advertisements since the beginning of the second series, has continued the path of absolutely free advertisements in the Libro d'Oro della Nobiltà it publishes, Libro d'Oro srl has introduced a series of costs for those who wish to have full-bodied entries published in the work, starting with the edition following the one published in 2016[26].

Beginning with the XXV edition, 2015-2019, the version of the Libro d'Oro published by Libro d'Oro srl will contain numerous paid advertisements from various advertisers that are not present in the XXV edition published by Ettore Gallelli Editore. The inclusion of advertisements is an operation unknown to modern noble genealogical directories.

Disputes between competing publishers The right to continue publishing has been disputed by a competitor[27] and, since 2015, by the Avvocatura dello Stato[28].

Disputes with the Italian State regarding the protection of the title "Golden Book of the Italian Nobility". On September 20, 2018, at the initiative of the General Directorate of State Archives, which is subordinate to the Ministry of Cultural Heritage and Activities and Tourism, the OHIM, Office for Harmonization in the Internal Market, now the European Union Intellectual Property Office (EUIPO), based in Alicante, Spain,[29] canceled the registration of a trademark called Libro d'oro della nobiltà italiana, registered by a private association. This trademark was registered in 2014 by Marco Lupis Macedonio Palermo di Santa Margherita, Secretary General of the A.S.N.I. (Historical Association of the Italian Nobility), at that time also member of the Board of Presidents of the College of Heraldry associated with Libro d'Oro srl, through Filippo Bruno (also known as Filippo Bruno di Tornaforte, Filippo Bruno De Brecco), in his former capacity as member of the Board of Directors of the A. S.N.I. and partner, actually registered the Libro d'Oro della Nobiltà Italiana trademark in the European Trademark and Patent Register[30]. This trademark was transferred to Libro d'Oro srl in 2015 through its managing director Fabrizio Antonielli d'Oulx by means of a special notarial deed[31][32]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vassour (talk • contribs) 09:44, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

@Vassour I can't understand why you copied / translated the article in this talk page, but feel free to split / reorganize the article page. Meridiana solare (talk) 09:18, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

I've done a 'quick' translation of the Italian text of one of the two entries, so that there's at least a trace of it on the discussion page.

Years ago, as you can see from the chronology of both the entry and the discussion page, this entry was modified and edited by an Italian troll, now also banned from the Italian WP, and - unfortunately - some English-speaking users paid attention to what the troll said. The result was that the few users who tried to disambiguate the entry left it to its fate: from 2018 to date, it remains in a misleading and contradictory version, full of errors. Vassour (talk) 23:16, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

@Meridiana solare As suggested, I've created a 'Libro d'Oro (private publication)' page. Could someone please change the title of the already created 'Libro d'Oro (private publication)' page to 'Libro d'Oro della Nobiltà italiana (private publication)' so that it is redirected correctly? Thanks.Vassour (talk) 07:13, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

@Vassour sorry, I can not understand completely: so we have two article with the same exactly title 'Libro d'Oro (private publication)' at the moment?... ??? Meridiana solare (talk) 09:01, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

@Meridiana solare No, we have a very long article with an incomplete title called "'Libro d'Oro (private publication)"' as seen here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libro_d%27Oro_(private_publication). The title needs to be corrected to "'Libro d'Oro della Nobiltà italiana (private publication)"'. But I do not know how to correct the title.... Could you correct it? Thank you very much. Vassour (talk) 12:48, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

@Vassour That article is brand new, stated by you. Why wasn't that tarted with the right name? Anyhow, see Help:Move. Meridiana solare (talk) 15:03, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

thank you. Just done. I learnt something new! Vassour (talk) 15:13, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Are there other 'Libro d'Oro della Nobiltà italiana' article (or are them possible and notable topics)? If not the ' (private publication)' part of the tile is not necessary and even wrong. Meridiana solare (talk) 16:13, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

@Vassour More important: now that we have two distinct articles, some contents have to leaved out form this one (and moved to the new one)? Meridiana solare (talk) 16:27, 25 July 2024 (UTC)