Talk:Kyiv (disambiguation)

Untitled

I really do not understand why this page is Kiev. The name is Kyiv (or Kiev). The country has clarified how it is to be spelled and all media and government organizations use Kyiv when reffering to the capital of Ukraine.

Just because non-educated mass of people do not know geography, wikipedia should not reinforce incorrect spelling.

Vvolodymyr 21:24, 23 September 2008 (UTC) Fully agree. The evidence is irrefutable. Talk:Kiev/naming

--Vvolodymyr 21:24, 23 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vvolodymyr (talk • contribs)

Unauthorised Change by Mzajac

What makes this change controversial? Sources, valid arguments? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vvolodymyr (talk • contribs) 23:39, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry I didn’t see this comment way back then. It was very controversial among Wikipedia editors, up until we moved the article Kiev to Kyiv a day ago. Cheers. —Michael Z. 21:36, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Semiprotection review

• 02:48, 31 July 2007 Alex Bakharev protected "Kiev (disambiguation)"‎ (disruptive editing by IPs/socks [edit=autoconfirmed:move=autoconfirmed])

As the above semiprotection was some time ago I'd like to discuss whether it's still necessary. As well as welcoming comments from regular or sometime editors I've also notified the protecting sysop, Alex Bakharev (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).

--TS 03:42, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Proposed split

Kyiv and Kiev are two spelling variants of the same name, may be used interchangeably, and there is no accepted difference in pronunciation. And their usage is in flux at this time. So I wouldn’t split these into two separate disambiguation pages, because most articles would end up listed in both. Semantically, all-caps callsigns or abbreviations KIEV and KYIV are perhaps different, but there are few links there, that I don’t see making more pages very helpful. Have I missed some good rationale for a split? —Michael Z. 21:32, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Hi Mzajac I guess this is a response to my edit diff with a comment Fork out into Kyiv (disambiguation) and Kiev (disambiguation) -> similar to Gdańsk (disambiguation) and Danzig (disambiguation). I frankly did not give it much thought (I just looked at Gdansk/Gdanzig and assumed they had the same situation (one topoynym word (G)dans(k)ig spelled differently in German/Polish, hence why they now have Gdańsk (disambiguation) and Danzig (disambiguation)), but your arguments above make good sense. I have now cancelled my edit per your argument -> feel free to return it if I misundertood anything.--73.75.115.5 (talk) 21:50, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Sounds good. —Michael Z. 22:31, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Removal of "Dynamo Kyiv" and other titles that have Kyiv

Hi @Leschnei: what was your reasoning behind removing "Dynamo Kyiv", "How can I not love you, my Kyiv?", Kyiv cake etc. from the list of disambiguation diff. Also, FYI I was modelling Kyiv (disambiguation) on Gdańsk (disambiguation).--73.75.115.5 (talk) 18:07, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Chicken Kiev belongs here because Brits say “let’s have some Kievs for dinner.” But is Kyiv cake ever called just “Kyiv” in English?

Kievan Rus arguably belongs, since it is often referred to as “the Kyivan state,” and is defined by the seat of power in Kyiv, rather than defined borders.

The transliterated name Kyivskyi District, Donetsk certainly belongs, because a direct English translation is “Kyiv District,” precisely in parallel to Kyiv Oblast which is officially romanized as Kyivska oblast. —Michael Z. 19:58, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Disambiguation pages are intended to sort out articles whose titles are ambiguous; they are not a list of every article whose title contains the term being disambiguated. I kept entries that (in my estimation) could reasonably be called simply Kyiv or Kiev (like Chicken Kiev, as Michael Z. mentioned above). There's no way that the title "How can I not love you, my Kyiv?" is ambiguous, unless people typically shorten the name to just 'Kyiv' (in which case it should probably be mentioned in the article). The template {{in title}} is listed to help readers find unambiguous titles containing the word 'Kyiv'. Leschnei (talk) 20:16, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

@Leschnei: RE Kyiv song: How can I not love you, my Kyiv? is indeed more often referred to simply as the "Kyiv song" (or "My Kyiv"), see Google search results for "пісня про Київ" (literally Kyiv song in Ukrainian); Re Dynamo Kyiv, I think the same argument can be made about it as about Chicken Kiev.--73.75.115.5 (talk) 20:25, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

When I google "Kyiv song" or "My Kyiv" in English, this song doesn't show up on the first page. If the article discussed other names for the song, with reliable sources, it would be a better fit. Leschnei (talk) 21:13, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Re: Dinamo Kiev - it is never ever shortened "Kiev", only to "dinamo" Staszek Lem (talk) 20:41, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

I have asked for opinions at Wikipedia talk:Disambiguation; hopefully others will weigh in. Leschnei (talk) 21:09, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

If you are replying to my commend on Dinamo (judging form the indent), you better ask for opinions in Dinamo Kiev talk page, where people know the names of their team. Staszek Lem (talk) 21:27, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Actually my question at Wikipedia talk:Disambiguation was more about disambiguating the Ukranian translation of 'My Kyiv', I just stuck it in the wrong place. Now if I move it, your reply will not make sense! Leschnei (talk) 21:40, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

re - Kyivskyi District, Donetsk - in this case the dab line must say, "Kyiv District, Donetsk, another name for Kyivskyi District, Donetsk, otherwise unnecessary eye-stumbler. Adding. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:41, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Correction: MOS:DABREDIRECT prescribes a different syntax. Implemented. Staszek Lem (talk) 21:29, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

And I removed the extra blue link. Leschnei (talk) 23:05, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

While it looks like journalism works hard to try to use the trademarked name “Dynamo Kyiv” or “Dynamo Kiev,” I doubt that it is not often shortened informally, and certainly not never. Our own article FC Dynamo Kyiv has a long quotation from a cited source wherein the city’s name stands in for the team: “Kyiv tried several counter attacks and even earned a free kick . . .” It also uses the formula in the article text: “the Olympiysky became Kyiv's main venue as well as the stadium that . . .” —Michael Z. 16:48, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

Well, Wikipedia is never a reliable source :-), The first quote obviously refers not to the team but to the city (actually to both opposing cities. it is common. "France wins in overtime" - you not say that "France" is the name of the team, right? Further reading: Metonymy). Same with the second phrase; yes, "Olympiysky became Kyiv's main venue", in fact it is the whole Ukraine's main venue. (By the way I didnt write "never shortened"; read again) Staszek Lem (talk) 18:14, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

Nonsense. Whole Ukraine didn’t play there, only FC Dynamo Kyiv did. Look at the completely idiomatic usage throughout this article: “in between Kyiv scored and City could curse their luck.” Who scored, the entire city of Kyiv? No. Kyiv is short for “FC Dynamo Kyiv” and City is short for “FC Manchester City.”03:17, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

OK, not main venue of Ukraine (but why not? "main" does not mean "everybody's"), but still the main one in Kiev, although not all Kiev plays there. As for Manchester, Kyiv is short for Kyiv and City is short for Manchester City. Whatever you say, colleague, unless you find a reliable source that directly says that Dinamo Kiev is also called "Kiev", your guesswork from random texts does not count. Staszek Lem (talk) 03:46, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

The Guardian is a reliable source, and not a “random text.” The other reliable source quoted in Wikipedia is also a reliable source, which you discounted by saying “Wikipedia is not a reliable source.” Your “metonymy” train of thought is not based on any reliable source. The soccer team belongs here, and it’s not worth calling a vote to remove it from this disambiguation page.  —Michael Z. 04:36, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes the Guardian is reliable source, but your interpretation of what is written is not. The Guardian does not say that the name of the team is "Kiev". My "metonymy" train of thought proves the fallacity of your train of thought, per my "France" example. Staszek Lem (talk) 06:28, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

The Guardian refers to the team as Kyiv (not Kiev). That is what WP:DAB is for, and it doesn’t care what linguistic principle is responsible for the use of the name. —Michael Z. 11:27, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

And Wall Street Journal refers to the French national team as "France". And the radio sports commenter refers to this team as "these morons". Good luck updating the corresponding disambig pages. Staszek Lem (talk) 16:35, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

Except those aren’t abbreviations of their team name. —Michael Z. 20:09, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

And Kiev is not an abbreviation of the team name, unless you provide a reference about this. It was fun, but I am done here. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:25, 21 September 2020 (UTC)