Talk:Ararat railway line

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Ballarat to Daylesford railway line, Victoria which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 07:01, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Requested move 20 September 2024

Serviceton railway line → Ararat railway line – Edited article a while ago to reflect that the Serviceton line hasn't existed since 1995, when it was truncated to Ararat; the section past Ararat through to Serviceton was converted to standard gauge in 1995 and connected to other lines to form today's Western standard gauge railway line. Current Ararat railway line page is a redirect to Ballarat V/Line rail service (which covers the Ballarat and Ararat passenger services running on the line). I requested a move back when I first edited the article, however the request was removed as it was never completed. Граймс (talk) 08:51, 17 September 2024 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink). 2pou (talk) 17:46, 20 September 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. 98𝚃𝙸𝙶𝙴𝚁𝙸𝚄𝚂 ^{[𝚃𝙰𝙻𝙺]} 01:14, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

---

Previous RM/TR comments removed when not completed in Special:Diff/1233382029:

• Serviceton railway line (currently a redirect to Ararat railway line) → Ararat railway line – Revamped the article as the line has not been known as the "Serviceton railway line" since 1995, when the line past Ararat was converted to standard gauge and reopened as part of the then-new Western standard gauge line. Граймс (talk) 14:06, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

  Looking at the official V/Line maps, I can't find evidence of individual V/Lines having official names, do you have sources for "Ararat railway line" being the WP:COMMONNAME? Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 16:53, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

  This article is about the physical rail line, not the V/Line service which runs on it. Both terminate at Ararat, since the rest of physical rail line was converted to standard gauge and connected to other lines to form the Western standard gauge railway line. As for V/Line, they treat their passenger service to Ararat as an extension of the Ballarat V/Line rail service (you can see that on the map you've linked, and the fact Ararat services share the Ballarat V/Line twitter account, or the fact vline.com.au only shows Ararat services after you click Ballarat, etc), so it's documented on that page instead. Граймс (talk) 11:40, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

---

• @Граймс: I have opened a full RM since the technical request languished last time. It will get more eyes here, and if it goes unopposed, it can be completed per WP:RMNOMIN. -2pou (talk) 17:55, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you! Граймс (talk) 03:01, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

  I suppose it can be moved now? It's been over a week :) Граймс (talk) 07:01, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

  Oppose - using this same arrgument...

  • South Gippsland railway line should then change to Cranbourne line
  • Whittlesea railway line should then change to Mernda line
  • Robinvale railway line to rename as "Manangatang railway line"
  • Kulwin railway line to rename as "Sea Lake railway line"

  Possibly also under the same argument...

  • Outer Circle railway line would then become Alamein line
  • Port Melbourne railway line would then become Melbourne tram route 109
  • St Kilda railway line would then become Melbourne tram route 96

  Those are just in Victoria. Are we then to change the article names anytime a section of a line is booked in or out of service? What about the Balranald railway line, should it be changed to "Moulamein railway line" (the limit from 1986 to 2006)? or "Caldwell railway line" (the limit from 2006 to 2008)? and if it reopens in the future only to Wakool do we change the name again? -- ThylacineHunter (talk) 11:01, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

  Two wrongs don't make a right. Some other articles having incorrect titles doesn't mean this one should remain incorrect too. A lot of your arguments are just strawmans, including cherry-picked articles that describe historic or partly-dismantled railway lines; and irrelevant whataboutisms.

  I want this article renamed because of WP:COMMONNAME - there is no official or otherwise reliable source that still calls this line the "Serviceton line". The closest thing I can find is the "Serviceton corridor", which is what the Australian Rail Track Corporation website uses in reference to the Western standard gauge line ([1]), because of the fact that, in 1995, the "Serviceton" line past Ararat was converted to standard gauge and joined with other lines to become the Western standard gauge line - this historic fact is documented on both articles. The broad gauge track, the entire length of which is still in use today, ends at Ararat; and the standard-gauge track past Ararat, the entire length of which is also still in use today, and was connected with other lines to run through to Geelong and Melbourne, is called the Western standard gauge line.

  So, TL;DR, With all the sources I can find, the consensus is clear - there is no such thing as the "Serviceton line", but there is the Ararat line; and there is the Western standard gauge line. Per WP:COMMONNAME, the article should be renamed to "Ararat railway line". It's in the same spirit as the naming of the Warrnambool railway line (formerly Port Fairy, actually ends at Dennington) and Mildura railway line (actually ends at Yelta) articles. It's all about the WP:COMMONNAME. Граймс (talk) 01:50, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

  there is no official or otherwise reliable source that still calls this line the "Serviceton line" - That is because, as the Serviceton BG line is closed it's not referenced as often. As with all closed lines or closed sections of lines they tend to not get talked about or mentioned by things that fall under WP:RS.

  the Australian Rail Track Corporation website uses in reference to the Western standard gauge line - The Australian Rail Track Corporation only refer to the rail "corridor" as the Western standard gauge line because they are responsible for the SG track that was laid in 1995, in comparison, the Servicton line was built in 1887. "Western standard gauge line" is the common name for the "Western standard gauge rail corridor", being made up of several smaller lines.

  The other issue that is causing confusion here is "Ararat (physical) line" and "Ararat service". Most mentions of the "Ararat line" are actually referring to the "Ararat V/Line rail service". In Victoria, we tend to call the services "such-and-such Line" as in Craigieburn line and Sunbury line, there is no such "railway lines" as those. This is untrue for 7 (Belgrave, Flemington Racecourse, Glen Waverley, Hurstbridge, Sandringham, Upfield, Williamstown lines) which are both a service and physical line, then there's Frankston/Stony Point make things a bit more confusing by both technically being on the "Stony Point (physical) line" (although I am happy to keep treating both lines as a line & service to help clear confusion). The V/Line network is the same (there is no "Bendigo (physical) line" but there is is a "Bendigo line" (service), with Albury (the original BG line) being the only one that was both a service and physical line.

  Sure, if you want to use you argument of WP:COMMONNAME to rename Serviceton to Ararat, then please change "Piangil railway line" to "Swan Hill railway line" and "Tocumwal railway line" to "Shepparton railway line" as these are the more common names known by the general public that use these lines. Ask anyone on these "lines" what it is called and they will give a common name of where the service terminates. -- ThylacineHunter (talk) 05:16, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

  It's due to these confusing names there was a draft of an updated naming convention for Australian transport covering names of lines, services and stations in the works. -- ThylacineHunter (talk) 05:23, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

  "That is because, as the Serviceton BG line is closed it's not referenced as often. As with all closed lines or closed sections of lines they tend to not get talked about or mentioned by things that fall under WP:RS." - The problem right here is that the "Serviceton BG line" is not "closed", it literally doesn't exist anymore, because it was converted to standard gauge, and is now called the Western standard gauge line.

  "The other issue that is causing confusion here is "Ararat (physical) line" and "Ararat service". Most mentions of the "Ararat line" are actually referring to the "Ararat V/Line rail service"." - Not necessarily. Here, this article refers to the physical track, which ends at Ararat.

  "Sure, if you want to use you argument of WP:COMMONNAME to rename Serviceton to Ararat, then please change "Piangil railway line" to "Swan Hill railway line" and "Tocumwal railway line" to "Shepparton railway line" as these are the more common names known by the general public that use these lines." - This is a strawman. The difference between Pinagil and Tocumwal, and Serviceton, is the former two actually still exist all the way to Piangil and Tocumwal, they're just not used for passenger services past Swan Hill and Shepparton respectively, but they are used for freight services beyond the passenger termini. The general public is not relevant here. All rail infrastructure sources still call them Piangil and Tocumwal, so yes, the common names of those lines are in fact still Piangil and Tocumwal. The "Serviceton line" on the other hand was truncated back to Ararat three decades ago, with the line past Ararat converted to standard gauge and integrated with other lines to become the Western standard gauge line. No infrastructure source calls the Ararat line the “Serviceton line”. That is my entire argument. Граймс (talk) 06:57, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

  @Граймс you have to be careful when doing a Google search to see which is the common name. All references to "Ararat Line" on V/Line, PTV, and even Big Build websites use "Ararat Line" when referring to the service (evidenced by them also saying "Bendigo Line" etc) most of their pages don't specifically mention any physical track names. If you want to use this as the reason for renaming, then it can be justifiable to also change the other lines to their common name of the end passenger stations (Swan Hill, Echuca, Shepparton, etc) and even split them at places like Bendigo and Ballarat, because that is how these official companies refer to their "SERVICES" or "Lines".

  One of the only real mentions of the physical line itself comes from the fan site VicSig who call it Ararat (although they have a habit of split off closed line sections and not every line is listed on their site). -- ThylacineHunter (talk) 08:12, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

  Also, by using your own arguments, you will need to change "Mildura railway line" to "Dunolly railway line" and "Merbein railway line"...

  ... fact that, in 2017, the" Mildura "line past Dunolly was converted to standard gauge ... The broad gauge track, the entire length of which is still in use today, ends at Dunolly; and the standard-gauge track past Dunolly, the entire length of which is also still in use today, and was connected with other lines to run through to Avoca and Ararat ... there is no such thing as the" Mildura "line", but there is the Dunolly line (BG); and there is the Merbein line (SG).

  ...the"Mildura BG line" is not "closed", it literally doesn't exist anymore, because it was converted to standard gauge...

  ..this article refers to the physical track, which ends at Dunolly.

  ...The "Mildura line" on the other hand was truncated back to Dunolly 7 years ago, with the line past Dunolly converted to standard gauge and integrated with other lines to become part of the Murray Basin Rail Project. -- ThylacineHunter (talk) 08:52, 30 September 2024 (UTC)