Talk:Dutch people

Article information

How to: Edit the labelled map

The map concerning the Dutch and the closest related (ethnic/linguistic) groups is a "labelled map" {{Template:Dutch labelled}}, which means the map itself, is blank and the words can be modified in the wiki to avoid the necessity of creating a new map should different concensus establish itself. For a link to the full map follow: Template:Dutch labelled, if you want to edit the basic map see Image:RasterDutch.png (but be carefull with making the map wider or more narrow as this will effect the coordinates, and hence the placements of the words.Rex 10:12, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Spinoza

In the section on Dutch contributions to humanity, it lists Spinoza with a note explaining why he belongs in an article on the Dutch ethnic group. Apparently, the only basis for his inclusion is the fact that he spoke the language and considered himself as being part of Dutch culture (which is unsourced), and his family viewed themselves as being of Dutch ethnicity (again unsourced), but this is contradicted by the opening line which makes clear they aren't of Dutch heritage (also unsourced). For a footnote that presumably backs up the claim that Spinoza should be counted as an ethnic Dutchman, the only sourced statement is that Anne Frank (and only Anne Frank, not Spinoza too as the comment suggests) was one of the choices for a television game show about the greatest Dutch of all time (which itself apparently made no distinction between ethnic Dutch and Dutch nationals--a key distinction as laid out in the article). The last reason presented for his inclusion as is the fact that Spinoza appeared on a coin in the 1970s (though I don't doubt this, it is unsourced), and again, this is not an actual criterion for determining ethnicity, unless the Dutch mint is in the habit of discriminating on such a basis. Zarathustra919 13:18, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

This has been discussed in much detail in the archives; please check there before re-opening this. Basically the Dutch ethnicity was being born in the days of Spinoza, so the boundaries may have been a bit vague at that time. (PS we are talking about the series of banknotes designed by Ootje Oxenaar of important dutchman (Vondel fl 5,- Frans Hals fl 10,- Sweelinck fl. 25,- De Ruyter fl 100,- and Spinoza, fl 1000,- and not about coins). Arnoutf 22:37, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not contesting his characterization as Dutch per se, but if that discussion has already taken place and reached some conclusion, then that conclusion ought to be better reflected in the quality of the sources used to reach it. If the verdict that Spinoza was ethnically Dutch was in fact based on some TV game show (which doesn't even mention Spinoza--it only mentions Anne Frank) and the unrelated incident of Spinoza appearing on Dutch coins, then you can bet I will be reopening the issue to debate. As it stands, one is led to believe that an encyclopedia (or purported encyclopedia) is reaching conclusions on such shaky and unscholarly bases, so if you think that the prior discussions reached a defensible and reasonable conclusion, then just use defensible and reasonable sources to back it up; that's all I'm saying. Zarathustra919 13:01, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I took a look at the discussion in the archive, and i really don´t want to reenact any discussion about ethnicity. But i would like to point out that it is based on a few wrong assumptions at least in respect to Anne Frank. She never was a Dutch national. She was born German and lost German nationality in 1941 due to a law depriving all "jews" (in the Nazi definition) residing outside of Germany of the German citizenship. She then remained stateless, after the war the corresponding laws were anulled. In fact, there was a controversy about that around the mentioned TV-Show. Some people wanted her to be attributed the Dutch nationality post mortem but Dutch officials denied that. Also, basing her Dutch ethnicity on her listing in that TV show is particularily ridicilous as she was also listed in the German version of that show. I will at least erase those parts claiming she was a Dutch national, as that is fact-based (refer to the Dutch article on Anne Frank). Jonas78 05:11, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I looked over the old discussion too, but to my mind it didn't come close to a resolution. This article acknowledges that Spinoza wasn't of Dutch heritage, so I don't understand how it can still insist on mentioning him as an example in light of Zarathustra's points about the references. And I also don't think that simply because the discussion has already taken place once before that that should be the be-all end-all of the matter; that isn't how a self-correcting encyclopedia should work. W.M. O'Quinlan 03:47, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Humorous tag

I agree with an earlier suggestion that the "Image" section should be tagged as humorous. Quoting The Xenophobe's Guide to the Dutch does not constitute a serious literature review, nor can sentences such as that about "the sacred state of being English" be defended as anything other than simple good-natured comedy. The whole section is clearly a very durable and popular attraction of Wikipedia, and a place for everyone to try out their best xenophobic one-liners - a bit like a relaxed Amsterdam pot house among the NPOV tea parties of Wikipedia - so can't we just be honest about it? Let's not pretend this is serious academic writing. Lfh 13:59, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Xenophobe and others (but not all quoted) have a lighthearted tone, but those books are indeed ettiquete/culture books, granted they use some humour (which can be removed or adapted) but it is not MAD magazine.Rex 16:13, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

The problem with this section is that it is neither humorous nor based on hard facts. The thing that remains is that it leaves a fairly negative impression of the Dutch. Also, I have not found a similar section in articles on other ethnic groups. ZuperB 16:19, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

The lack of a section on other articles should in my opinion never be a reason to remove it on others that do have one. The section isn't intented to be humerous and is based on facts. Wether they are 'hard' is personal. I myself think they do represent the majority, and with these subjects that's all a source can do. It's impossible to speak for all. As mentioned in the disclaimer above the sections.Rex 20:10, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Picture

The picture of girls in wooden shoes is about as representative for the Dutch as Uncle Sam for the USA or John Bull for the UK or a farmer carrying a baguette and a string of onions for France. A better photo should be found. Soczyczi 16:16, 16 August 2007 (UTC) In general, there are too many clogs in the article. Soczyczi 17:14, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

The word 'clog' is mentioned a mere 6 times in this entire article, in nearly all cases it is used to oppose existing views of stereotypes. The girls were chosen because they're neutral. 4 or 8 face selection will never satify everyone. This article is about Dutch etnicity, and those girls are definately Dutch. That's what matters.Rex 08:22, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

A MERE six times is four times too much, and if you would have chosen this picture of Dutch girls 'because they're neutral', you are labouring under a severe case of stereotypitis. Soczyczi 09:29, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

You have a case of clogophobia I see. Those girls are Dutch, and they're virtually anonymous, why are they stereotypical? Just girls from the 1920s. Rex 09:34, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

In fact I'm sure it's a picture from about 1950, not 1920. Very few Dutch in 1950 were wearing wooden shoes and the sort of dress these girls do, it was obsolete tradition then and even more so now. Only a tiny fraction of Dutch farmers are wearing wooden shoes - occasionally. However, many people think most Dutch are wearing them because of pictures like this. It's a caricature, like the English all would have bowler hats and the Germans all have Hitler moustaches. Soczyczi 01:35, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I never thought the Germans wore certain moustaches..... Lederhosen is another issue though..... ;-)Arnoutf 07:23, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

You know, as opposed to bowler hats and the English (which only the upperclass gentleman wore) and the Germans and lederhosen (which only bavarians wear), the Dutch and clogs have more ground. Historically and until not so long ago, most Dutch people wore clogs. Virtually all of them, even in the cities. They are Dutch girls caught on camera, if you have an actually other proposition instead of only complaints (based on your own opinion) I'll be happy to listen.Rex 16:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I think Soczyczi has a bit of a point, but so does Rex. Suggest we leave the current clog one up, until someone proposed a better alternative. Arnoutf 17:09, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I think the picture is fine. The caption clearly states that they are wearing traditional Dutch costume. It doesn't say 'This is a picture of Dutch people, going about their daily business' - does it? As a half-dutch person I see nothing offensive in this picture, and I think there is no need to replace it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scarletsugar (talk • contribs) 14:47, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I noticed that the picture is different from the Spanish people article, the Briton article and the German Briton article - these articles seem to follow the same pattern. I think we shouldn't find a new picture, but find a group of pictures like in the articles I listed. Onecanadasquarebishopsgate 19:51, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Argentina

Anyone know the number of the dutch descendants in argentina?? cuz the number of dutch who comes to argentina last century was about 20.000 (from netherlands) and another wave of inmigrants ((bigger maybe) comes from south afrika after the boers war.. i men afrikaneers.. I think today must be about 500.000 (or more) dutch descendants in Argentina. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shrewsbury333 (talk • contribs) 01:41, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

There certainly was immigration to Argentinia, as this [1] link proves, but I can't seem to find exact figures of the current state of affairs.Rex 17:42, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Frisian(s)

I've included 'Frisian' (well west Frisian to be precise) as a language native to the Dutch. My reasoning is that if we/the government/ethnologists see Frisians as being Dutch, and in some cases Frisians as well ... their language deserves to be mentioned, despite the fact that they are all bilingual. Rex 17:36, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Various

The section on english degoratory phrases includes 'dutch cap' for a pessarium. This name does not come from 17th century hostility, but from the fact that it was invented in the Netherlands (in the 19th century)— Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.68.220.153 (talk • contribs)

I never knew that it was invented in the Netherlands. Do you happen to have a source to back it up? If so, we'll change it right away.Rex 16:54, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

religion

the map about the religion is not complete. I think this is a better one (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Nederlandgodsdienst1849.PNG). although it's from 1849 it's still actual. when you don't mention the muslims.

greet 145.76.193.136 13:19, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

A new image based on the one you provided has been made and implemented.Rex 20:08, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Failed "good article" nomination

Per the quick-fail criteria of the GA process, any article that displays an obviously non-neutral treatment of a subject must be failed immediately, and does not require an in-depth review. I call to your attention to the section "Contribution to humanity" in particular as evidence of POV in the article. Notice that the WikiProject for ethnic groups does not recommend such a section in their structure guideline, and the GA-class article Jew lacks one. This is because a section whose sole purpose is to recount the positive events and personages of an ethnic group is a violation of NPOV. The article violates the neutrality policy in small places elsewhere with uncited passages like, "Although comparatively small in numbers, the Dutch have definitely made their mark on the world, as we know it today." Not only is the tone unencylopedic, it isn't backed by a citation (any statement likely to be challenged should be per the criteria). Other troubling places include, but are not limited to: "The image of the Dutch", with the info banner - which is a violation of basic encyclopedic standards (self-referential material is not okay) and the Manual of Style - and with "Dutch views on others". That subsection is clearly inappropriate for an encyclopedic work. If content is "not exemplary of all the Dutch", then it should not be in an article which deals with the Dutch people as a whole. Of course, if you're just trying to say that it is about Dutch stereotypes, then a regular section intro without self-reference would serve that purpose. Overall, the article has major problems which prevent me from providing a hold period, which is solely for minor fixes to what is already a basically good article. Please address these issues and thoroughly examine the GA criteria before renominating. If you feel this decision was in error, you may seek a reassessment. Thank you for your work so far, VanTucky ^Talk 01:42, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Cartman

Under 'Dutch in Fiction' it is stated that Cartman from South Park is Dutch. Any source to this?--80.60.212.248 (talk) 11:18, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

q:en:Eric Cartman: My grandma's Dutch-Irish and my grandpa's lesbian, that makes me quarter lesbian!. It's a rather weak source, in my opinion. For me, having a Dutch greatgrandparent is neither sufficient nor necessary to be ethnic Dutch. Erik Warmelink (talk) 17:33, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Opinions rarely matter on Wikipedia.Rex (talk) 18:46, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

grandma is Dutch-Irish means that (at best) Cartmans Grandma is half Dutch (but possibly even less), so Cartman is 1/8 Dutch; is that ethnic Dutch. Furhtermore note the character is a cartoon character, and evenso well known for exaggeration; so we should not take the quote itself on face value. Arnoutf (talk) 18:56, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Ethnicity may well be one of the exceptions. To be ethnically Dutch someone has to feel Dutch (at least partly) and has to be considered Dutch (again, at leat partly) by other Dutch. Dutch editors to en.wikipedia.org may not be a random selection, but if almost of them share a view on what makes someone Dutch, their combined opinion does matter. Erik Warmelink (talk) 01:40, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I consider the whole Cartman issue irrelevant trivia, as IMHO (and I am Dutch) a cartoon character (especially one of the type of Cartman) has no ethnicity whatsoever. Arnoutf (talk) 06:45, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. You could put Kyle, from the same series, into an ethnic group, as its raised as an issue pretty frequently in the show, but Cartman's character really doesn't have anything to do with being Dutch.

Reverts from Fontys IP addresses

@145.93.125.93/145.93.123.60: For "Brazilian" vs. "Brazillian", please see a dictionary. For "ethnic group" vs. "group", without "ethnic" the sentence loses its meaning, since most Dutch people do know that most Flemings have, for example, Belgian passports and tend to live closer to the equator.

I did not re-add the addition about "moffen", because:

1. "a German" is singular, "moffen" is plural
2. another loose translation would be "better in soccer" Erik Warmelink (talk) 17:33, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Edit history shows that the IP adress responsible for the Moffen-edit was not 145.93.125.93/145.93.123.60, but 207.45.43.68 as seen here.Rex (talk) 18:45, 9 December 2007 (UTC)