User talk:L'Aquatique

Home

Talk

Contribs

Awards

Monobook

Sandbox

E-Mail

This is L'Aquatique's talk page, where you can send messages and comments to L'Aquatique. Please sign and date your posts by typing four tildes (~~~~). Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Ask questions, get answers. Be polite Assume good faith No personal attacks Be welcoming If you leave a message here, I will reply here and leave the {{Talkback}} template on your page. If I leave a message on your talk page, I will watchlist it, so please reply there. You can also contact me on my IRC channel, ###LAquatique connect (yes, there are multiple pound signs) or via e-mail at fromjuneauwithlove at gmail dot com Reading Material! If I deleted your page and you want to know why... Q: Hey, you deleted my page! A: That's entirely possible. Q: So, what gives? I worked really hard on that. A: Well, it could be any number of things. Because I'm a new admin, for now I restricting my use of the delete button to really obvious cases only, which in Wiki-speak we call Candidates for Speedy Deletion. There are a ton load of things that might have qualified your article for speedy deletion, but the chances are relatively high that 1.it was an attack page, or 2. it was blatant advertisement, aka Spam. Q: What's an attack page? A: An attack page is a page which exists solely to degrade another person. Whether this person is your sister's ex-boyfriend, your mean old English teacher, or Tom Cruise. In fact the subject of an attack page doesn't even have to be real to qualify it for speedy deletion, because the fact remains that an encyclopedia has no need for an article that consists solely of "John Doe is gay." It serves no purpose. No one, except perhaps John Doe and his partner, gives one iota that he is gay. Q: Well, how do I know if my page was an attack page? A: Did you create a page about a person, real or fake, and write negative things about them? Q: I guess... A: Then it was an attack page. Q: But everything I wrote was true! A: It doesn't matter. For one thing, if your article was about a non-notable topic, it was going to be deleted no matter what. Wikipedia is the free encyclopedia that everyone can edit, but we do have standards regarding what subjects are suitable, and there are requirements- we don't have an article about everything possible, just articles about subjects a reasonable amount of people would care about. This is why we have articles about William Shatner, but not That Guy Who is in the Theatre Troupe in your Hometown of Barrow, Alaska, and Did a Really Good Job as Hamlet that One Time, and Jackie Kennedy but not Barack Obama's Second Cousin's Ex Roomate's Illegitimate Daughter's Secret Lesbian Lover's Toy Poodle. Of course, by this measure we probably shouldn't have an article about Paris Hilton, but two out of three ain't bad. Q: What was the second thing? A: What? Q: You said "for one thing," doesn't that sort of imply that there's more? A: Oh, of course. I got off on a bit of a rant there, didn't I? Q: Yes, yes you did. A: Okay, the second thing is, if the person you wrote your attack about is real and whether he or she is notable or not, unless you have actual factual verifiable references with which to back up your sources, the page will immediately be deleted as a BLP concern, because we have strict rules governing articles about real people. The Wikimedia cabal Foundation could be held legally liable if the information contained within said articles could be construed as libel. Q: Oi vey, big Words... A: Just be careful when you're writing about living people. Q: Sounds fair enough. What about spam pages, what's that? A: Spam could be one of two things: a mystery meat that I am quite sure is not Kosher, or blatant advertisement that no one wants to read. You know, the stuff that clogs your inbox day in and day out with offers for natural male enhancement, even though you are most definitely a female? Anyway,we get a lot of that on Wikipedia too, and most of the time it is immediately deleted, often by myself. It's one of my pet peeves. Q: One of my pages was deleted as spam, but I didn't intentionally write it as an advertisement. Why was it deleted? A: Most of the spammy pages are written by someone within the company trying to use Wikipedia as the free directory that everyone can advertise [in]. But sometimes, editors who have no ties to the company or product just get a little over-excited and forget to adhere to our neutral point of view. It happens from time to time, especially in a world where we are taught to write as flowery as possible. You might consider reading some of our policies and you can always ask questions if you are unsure. Q: I'm pretty sure my page was not an attack page, or an advertisement. Why else might you have deleted it? A: It might have been any of the other criteria for speedy deletion, including patent nonsense (no salvageable content), copyright infringement, test pages, and word-for-word recreation of material deleted per a deletion discussion. To be sure, check the logs. Follow this link: Special:Log, select "Deletion Log" in the drop down menu, and then type the name of the page. The admin who deleted the page will have left a short note explaining why the page was deleted. Q: I really think that the article could be improved, but when I recreate it, it only gets deleted again. What do I do? A: In many (but not all) cases, I can restore it for you and move it to your userspace where you can improve upon it at your own pace. For instructions, check out the next section. Hopiakuta Hi - I think Hopiakuta is asking to have a phone consultation - several of his comments have obliquely talked about that, and I think that's what he's referring to when he points to your sig - the "talk to me" part. I saw him saying something similar somewhere else, and I'm finally adding it up. It's all very bizarre. I don't have the time, nor the needed background, to sort through his technical issues, but I wonder if someone might be able to step up for this. He has something to say - it's just not getting to us. Nice to meet you, by the way. Tvoz |talk 22:19, 8 October 2007 (UTC) Hi, it's nice to meet you too. I would agree that he is asking for a phone conversation... but I'm young and not all that well spoken, and I don't feel comfortable with talking to someone I don't know over the phone. Add that to the fact that I don't really feel qualified. I have experience w/ autistic and developmentally disabled people but this is, well it's very different. Parts of it do seem autistic, the problem with taking things out of context is almost aspergers-like... but I'm not getting that vibe otherwise. I just don't think I could do it justice, but I don't really know anyone who could. Maybe someone at the accessibility project? It seems that the person he connected with the most is Graham, but he seems to have stopped paying attention to the page. Maybe if we brought this back to his attention he could lend some ideas. Frankly, I'm at a loss, but I don't want to give up on this guy yet. L'Aquatique talktome 05:07, 9 October 2007 (UTC) That's how I feel too - you probably saw I brought this to AN/I initially because I just couldn't make any sense out of it and had a feeling it wasn't garden-variety vandalism, although it looked like it. I really am not the right person either - I don't have any experience and wouldn't know how to approach it - but there must be people here who can. Graham is a good idea - maybe he knows people at the accessibility project. Tvoz |talk 06:03, 9 October 2007 (UTC) Oooh - how come the color continued? Looks nice! Tvoz |talk 06:06, 9 October 2007 (UTC) It's pretty! Okay, I'm going to bop over to Graham's talk page and tell him there's a party going on over at L'Aquatique's talk page and he better get in on it before I get too goofy (as often happens at parties, particularly Christmas ones). I am kidding of course. I just finished a six page paper for a sociology class and I'm feeling QUITE goofy already! 'Nee way... L'Aquatique talktome Done! I think I managed to keep the goofiness to a minimum. I try hard not to freak out people I am just meeting! : ) 'Kay, we'll see if he responds. (By the way, your signature matches this odd purpleness that has engulfed our conversation quite nicely.) L'Aquatique talktome 06:41, 9 October 2007 (UTC) (After edit conflict): Hmmm - I'm not sure how well I'd do at this - I'm a bit shy in voice communication and one of the reasons I like this place is that communication is all in text. I've been able to talk to other blind people who others considered really hard to talk to ... just saying "yep", "uh-huh", and so on did the trick as well as providing some good advice. But I'm not sure how I'd go with Hopiakuta ... he/she seems very talkative. The only person from Wikipedia:accessibility who I think might be able to do this is User:Rick Block. User:Theresa knott is a teacher assistant at a school who I find always has a knack of explaining things well - perhaps some of the editors at Talk:Autism maybe? I know people in RL who are good at that sort of thing but don't edit here... I wouldn't give the duty to any of them otherwise they probably wouldn't be my friends. In summary I could do it, but I'd prefer someone who is more quallified in working with developmentally disabled people. I have this page on my watchlist so reply here to keep the conversation in one place. Graham87 06:57, 9 October 2007 (UTC) Holy cow, that was fast. Superhero fast... hey you're not a superhero are you? That would be cool. I could tell people I met a superhero on Wikipedia! But alas... they would never believe me! Anyway; I hope that you have not misinterpreted my original message- in no way am I asking you to telephone him yourself! I would not ask you to do something I wouldn't do- and I know how you feel. I'm horrible at telephone conversations... I stutter all over the place and can never think of the right thing to say! (until an hour or so afterward, that is) I am much better at typing out my thoughts. Anyway, I was just hoping you might have some insight that we are missing, since he seemed to react in more a positive manner to you than others. It's late where I am and I'm just up working on this and writing to blow off steam, so I'll try to get in touch with Rick tomorrow morning and try to get his advice on the subject. Thanks for the quick reply! L'Aquatique talktome 07:09, 9 October 2007 (UTC) LOL no I was browsing WP:ANI and followed a link ... then I found I had new messages. I'd love to be a superhero ... 'twould be cool to be able to fly around. Anyways, as a last idea, have a look at my advice about a similar situation at User talk:SandyGeorgia/arch19 #AnnieTigerChucky - I was probably a bit pesamistic in that message but it is true, unless someone reaches out to him and teaches him about Wikipedia, he will eventually be banned. I don't want that to happen. And I always think of a comeback far too late - what in French is called L'esprit de l'escalier (stairway wit) - I wish there was a concise English term for that. Graham87 07:27, 9 October 2007 (UTC) Yeah, flying would definitely rock muchly. However, I think I'd prefer to be able to breathe underwater. Still, being a superhero would be scary. I don't think I have to guts to go fighting evildoers... I have trouble enough on vandal patrol! Then again, you can't move as fast underwater, so any epic battles would be pretty boring. Hee hee... 'Nee way, back to the subject at hand. I am not sure about this- I haven't been able to decipher a lot from his admittedly cryptic talk page (can't imagine what that page must sound like... maybe a very poorly tuned orchestra!) but I think he actually was banned at one point for a short time. Perhaps as an administrator you could confirm this? Frankly, while I see how it could work, I think that he may just react with the "handicappist, racist, etc" line. I'm afraid if we tried that we might push him away too far. Hmmm... By the way- love that phrase! It does seem to capture the sentiment perfectly, doesn't it? Je pense que les français comprendent l'idée de langue plus, plus mieux que nous... : ) L'Aquatique talktome 07:42, 9 October 2007 (UTC) This is his block log, which is accessible by everyone - it shows he was blocked for 24 hours and then unblocked. A link to a user's block log can be found at the top of their contributions, next to the talk page link; admins also get a block button. A block is not the same thing as a ban ... a ban is something given by the arbitration committee or by the whole community - see the banning policy. I don't actually know any French - I learnt that phrase from Chuck Palahniuk's short story "Guts", which is, um, interesting ... let's just say that the ability to breathe underwater would not have helped the main character at all to get out of his messy predicament! Graham87 08:20, 9 October 2007 (UTC) Hmm... It says he was blocked at around ten then unblocked at 16:00... that's only six hours, unless I'm reading it wrong. (which is completely possible- the whole 24 hour clock screws with my brain) Plus it happened almost a year ago. Looks like this guy's been a Wikipedian longer than me! Nevertheless, it seems like if he was going to learn from a block he would have learned his lesson a year ago. A ban on the other hand... I don't know. I'm not sure he would understand. Many editors have already asked him to "knock it off", making it formal probably isn't going to change things. The idea of a ban, in and of itself, isn't very concrete and I think that we need to be very clear with him or else more misunderstandings are likely to ensue. On the less serious side of this conversation, I've decided that in addition to being able to hold my breath under water and fly, I want to have a little usb port installed in my brain. Need to learn about Geological Oceanography? Easy! I just plug in this flash drive and BAM! Instant expertise! The practical applications are endless!! L'Aquatique talktome 08:38, 9 October 2007 (UTC) Yup he was blocked for only six hours then unblocked by the same admin. I think the problem is that everyone has been kinda afraid to deal with him ... and to be honest I don't blame them. If he is banned he will probably start creating sockpuppets - but they will be easily recognisable because of his distinct writing style and mannerisms. I'd love a USB port in my brain ... you could find out so much info so quickly. I would only like it if only *I* could decide what gets plugged in there ... I wouldn't like someone walking by and randomly plugging a USB vacuum cleaner into my brain. Graham87 09:02, 9 October 2007 (UTC) Yeah, I agree. I'm not afraid of him, but I'm a little intimidated. I'm a writer and I'm used to what I write making sense to people. He obviously isn't getting what I'm trying to tell him, and that really... I don't know what to word is. Frustrates me, I guess. Maybe that's why I don't want to give up on him. It irks me that there are so many idiots out there that will destroy without a though something other people have spent so much time working on, but here's someone who seems to have good faith, and some good ideas (if you can read past all the weirdness, he has a very dry with an is almost... poetic) and we cannot get him to understand. *Sigh*. The problem is, he will take any block or ban as an insult. Hmmm... Tvoz was talking earlier about him writing down everything that he wants to contribute in a subpage and then having that be translated into usable text by some volunteer. That's actually not a bad idea, but I'm not sure how I'd communicate that to him. Plus, we'd have to find someone to do it. Vacuum cleaner usb ports. Who knew? I cannot help wondering who sits at their desk all day and thinks these things up. Nevertheless, if someone did walk by and plug a vacuum into your head, you could just yank it out and...retaliate...hee hee... This reminds me of when I was a kid, I programmed my computer to "scream in pain" (I just recorded myself screaming) everytime someone unplugged something from it. Ahh, the memories! L'Aquatique talktome 18:19, 9 October 2007 (UTC) Hmmm - look at his his userpage on Anarchopedia where he seems to make a little more sense. I suspect he is autistic because of his perseveration on minor things - like the number of characters in his screen name. He seems to be unwilling to use the phone to talk to anyone outside the US - and I, personally, wouldn't call if I had to pay for it because the cost of international calls in Aussieland is ridiculous. Unless one of us could Skype him or something ... wasn't he using an ancient computer though? Hmmm ... on one level he makes no sense at all but on another he makes perfect sense in his own world, if you know what I mean. And lol at the USB missile launcher! Weapon of mass-distraction indeed ... Graham87 04:56, 10 October 2007 (UTC) I've read through some of his posts and nearly all of them could be considered disruptive. His account history goes back to June 2006 (which is a continuation of earlier postings from an IP address). He seems to be the same user at http://eng.anarchopedia.org/index.php/User:hopiakuta, and may not be fully comprehending the difference between wikipedia and anarchopedia. He's been tolerated here quite a long time, despite being nearly obviously disruptive. I don't have any particularly good suggestions. I've seen much less disruptive folks end up banned. He seems to at least think he has a disability of some kind, but I don't have much of clue what it might be. Harsh though it may sound, if he can't communicate through writing this might not be the best place for him. BTW - can you fix your sig? Each "start font" (font) needs a matching "close font" (/font). This is why the font color continues after your sig. -- Rick Block (talk) 05:02, 10 October 2007 (UTC) Fixed. That's never been a problem before... Anyway, I'm disappointed to hear your response, but unfortunately I have to admit that you are probably right. Both of my parents are autism specialists and I spent my childhood dealing with this stuff. I guess I was just pushing for a victory here because they are so rare with this disease. I do think it's interesting that he seems so much more coherant at Anarchopedia. I don't have any good explanations for this. Perhaps it is just a better environment for him and we should encourage him to remain there instead? As for weapons of mass destruction distraction, I know that I would be distracted all day by that! I'd be sitting here, twiddling my thumbs and considering working... then someone would walk by I would bomb the daylights out of them! The good news is, if they were carrying something I could vacuum any messes up ASAP! : ) L'Aquatique talktome 17:46, 10 October 2007 (UTC) It seems a shame, because it would appear that disruption may not be his intent, and he has made positive contributions, if you can sort through the maze. I do think it might work in a partnering arrangement, but I don't know why anyone would volunteer for such a task. From a practical standpoint, do we just sit back and put up with it? Mentoring might be an answer - at least a mentor (or adopt-a-user, whatever it's called) might talk to him by phone and maybe get some insight into what the problem is, and perhaps recommend that this isn't the best place for him to get satisfaction from his work. This may indeed not be the best place for him, but are we going to just wait until someone blocks him for disruption? Doesn't feel right to me, but I don't have any answers either. Tvoz |talk 19:01, 10 October 2007 (UTC) Well, I suppose a next step could be to contact the folks over at Adopt a User and see if we could find someone with experience in these situations. There are a lot of mentors out there, I'd bet there's a least one who would be willing to take it on. L'Aquatique talktome 19:08, 10 October 2007 (UTC) I wish I was able to contribute more here than I really can. I do note that we do have two editors, User:Smartyshoe and User:Gameguider, who have both expressed interest in a proposed Autism project and who both use the {{User aspie}}. One of them, or maybe one of the other editors who use that template here might be able to help. I would have no objections to trying maybe to do some work on this editor's contributions, but am more than a bit awkward on the phone myself. By the way, any way to bring back the violet print above? I wish I saw that color a lot more often around here. John Carter 20:08, 10 October 2007 (UTC) Okay, perhaps we could create some sort of network of people who could sift through his contributions and make them more "wikipropriate" (<- new word!). Of course we'd need to run this by him first or he'll see it as being followed around by people intent on changing his edits! I'm going to pop over to Smartyshoe and Gameguiders' talk pages and ask them to join this conversation and lend some first hand experience and advice. L'Aquatique talktome 21:00, 10 October 2007 (UTC) Please see Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Accessibility. John Carter 14:51, 11 October 2007 (UTC) Hmmm... too bad you are the only person on the list. : ( L'Aquatique talktome 20:07, 11 October 2007 (UTC) Hey, I only added that section at 14:50 today. It'll take awhile for people to even know it's there. John Carter 20:12, 11 October 2007 (UTC) Oh, I didn't know that! Hee hee... I'll have to go add my name. L'Aquatique talktome 21:37, 11 October 2007 (UTC) I don't feel comfortable talking to strangers on the phone. Sorry. Smartyllama 23:11, 13 October 2007 (UTC) (formerly smartyshoe) I know how you feel! But would you be willing to perhaps examine the case and lend some advice? Also, you may be interested in User:Warlordjohncarter/WikiProject Accessibility... Thanks, L'Aquatique talktome 00:03, 14 October 2007 (UTC) Sure, I will look into it. Smartyllama 00:10, 14 October 2007 (UTC) Good deal. Welcome to the Wikiproject! L'Aquatique talktome 00:15, 14 October 2007 (UTC) Hi - I just saw your "talkback" was put on my user page again on Oct 9 - I saw it once that day - didn't see that it went back up (not sure why you put it back actually) - would probably be more useful, at least for me, if you put it on User Talk instead, so the "new message" announcement would be delivered. My watchlist is too huge and I'd prefer not having things put on my user page - I don't always notice them. Anyway - I did see the discussion continuing here, and wish you all well with the project - this is not my expertise, but I saw an editor who seemed to be struggling, and tried to make some sense out of it. Unfortunately it seems there are no real resources for this type of thing, and there continues to be a communication problem with this user. It may be beyond our ability to address - if anyone has any contacts at the Foundation, perhaps they would be interested in this. I'm overbooked as it is and can't do much more than an occasional interpretation if I happen to see one of his edits being misunderstood. I'll keep him on my watchlist, but can't promise more than that. Tvoz |talk 05:21, 22 October 2007 (UTC) (unindent)Whoa, sorry I didn't notice your post until now. God, I'm such a space cadet at times. 'Nee way , thanks for your help and input. I understand being overbooked! Been there, done that, keep doing it. --(L'Aquatique: Bringing chaos & general mayhem to the Wiki for One Year!) 08:54, 7 November 2007 (UTC) Absolutely no problem!! All best Tvoz |talk 16:45, 7 November 2007 (UTC) Following up speedy deletes with username blocks I disagree with your message. When I removed harmless usernames such as "Kazanovac" from UAA, it was fully intentional. Think for a moment about how this works when usernames aren't involved. When someone makes a promotional article, they should get warned and the article speedy deleted. They don't get blocked, typically, unless it's really blatant abuse of Wikipedia or a repeat offense. If they have an otherwise unidentifiable name, like "Kazanovac", that matches the article that got deleted... what's the big deal? Why do we need to rush to protect Wikipedia from the name "Kazanovac"? Escalating the speedy deletion into a block is unnecessary, it confuses usernames with behavior, and it's actively against the interests of Wikipedia: If the user was a typical newbie who just doesn't get what Wikipedia is for yet -- like most newbies -- the block is quite harsh and drives them away. If the user is actually a spammer who intends to keep self-promoting, we're just asking them to hide it better next time. This has been discussed a lot on WT:U, the talk page for the username policy that UAA's purpose is to enforce. I don't think you've been involved there so far. Yes, some people see this issue differently than others. Perhaps you should get the discussion going again -- it could be a better way to communicate than a curt, template-ish warning. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 09:56, 8 November 2008 (UTC) I here by award you with this Barnstar For your contributions and solid articles. Danger^Mouse (talk) 06:50, 9 November 2008 (UTC) re: that story Isn't that insane!? Yeah, basically I spent a good hour during my lunch break at work trying to find a good article to make my wtf section. That article totally won! Freaked me out... DigitalNinja 02:13, 11 November 2008 (UTC) Your civility warning The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. Thank you for trying to keep things civil on the Obama talk page. It looks bad though when you single out the editor that has been one of the calmest people during the debate. The comment you warned him about was a response to being cursed and yelled at in bold and all caps by an admin. Same admin told him he could not find his nose in front of his face. Two or three other editors right there in the same area were far more uncivil. Why is it you only singled out LEDrush? Landon1980 (talk) 13:56, 11 November 2008 (UTC) I did not single him out. Looking through the conversation I saw a clear consensus, an editor frustrated that there was still argument despite said clear consensus (i did not and still do not see any real incivility on jd's part) and another editor being passive agressive. Who do you think I'm gonna warn? L'Aquatique[talk] 15:29, 11 November 2008 (UTC) So screaming in all caps and bold while cursing is civil? Telling someone they do not have the mental ability to find their nose in front of their face is civil? Asking someone how many times and in how many ways must they be told something before it will sink in is civil? I can go on and on, is calling someone insane civil? Is saying there commenst are "bullshit" civil? How many more examples do you need? I'll give you diffs if you doubt any of these. Landon1980 (talk) 15:49, 11 November 2008 (UTC) Yes, please give me diffs. I stepped on my glasses a while back and have been going without thinking that my vision wasn't that bad... I guess it is because I am not seeing this screaming and cursing you are talking about. Rest assured that given proof that such a thing is happening, I will absolutely warn/take action against anyone who engages in such inappropriate behavior. Realize here that I can only react to behaviors I am aware of, and I do not see J.Delanoy screaming and cursing at anyone. L'Aquatique[talk] 16:20, 11 November 2008 (UTC) Ok, give me a minute. Landon1980 (talk) 16:28, 11 November 2008 (UTC) Kee dokie. L'Aquatique[talk] 16:34, 11 November 2008 (UTC) For starters, [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] This user inparticular has had nothing constructive to say, they only complain about how others are discussing it, and just see the contribs for several uncivil remarks. There are many many more, but I simply don't care to spend the time digging throught the diffs so at best they are told to be civil. Landon1980 (talk) 16:54, 11 November 2008 (UTC) [unindent] Well, I don't see cursing and outright insults, but what I do see is somewhat worrying, and I really would expect a fellow admin to be somewhat less short-tempered. I need to run and grab something for breakfast, but I will take this up with him as soon as I return. L'Aquatique[talk] 17:06, 11 November 2008 (UTC) I will bold the curses in my examples below for you. For the record, I don't mind cursing per se (and am not religious so using those curses don't bother me) but I don't like them thrown at me while I am trying to have a polite conversation.LedRush (talk) 17:25, 11 November 2008 (UTC) Well, the cursing I couldn't care less about. However, when I'm doing my best to remain civil (and was very civil) and trying my hardest to express my thought sand concerns I don't appreciate being told I am "randomly babbling." He directly told me that I was not capable of seeing my nose in front of my face. Those "people" were Ledrush and I and he made that clear. The comment was directly under mine and he made it no secret he was referring to us. If I were to have behaved in the same manner (on an article that is on probation) might I add I would have been blocked to prevent disruption. What do you think JD would have said, if while he was politely discussing an issue with me, I told him he was randomly babbling and that he did not have the mental ability to see his nose in front of his face? In the past two days I have been called stupid, foolish, prick, and several other derogatory terms. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but I do like to be treated with respect. I just don't like the idea of a double standard regarding this kind of thing. I can clearly see that you do not, but I feel others do. The same editors that warned me for extremely mild incivility completely ignored the fact I was been provoked by comments that were far more uncivil. PS. I'm sorry for harping and complaining about this to you. I don't expect you to chase down all the issues I mentioned; I'm just a little frustrated that's all. Landon1980 (talk) 17:21, 11 November 2008 (UTC) Unfortunately, there often is a double standard and there is usually very little a person directly involved in it can do. As for myself, I see both sides here: it is extremely frustrating when a person does not feel that they are being listened to, and you have to understand here that this is an issue that really has been beaten to death over the last few weeks- you guys are actually the most recent in a long chain of people making essentially the same argument and it can be difficult for the people on the other end to separate out individuals- they're feeling stressed because they're repeating the same thing over and over, and they forget that each time it's a different person- it all sort of blurs together and you end up feeling like you're fighting a single unified force instead of a succession of people who are coming to the same conclusion independently, unaware that it's already been decided weeks ago. However, while I feel their frustration (and in fact I agree with their general premise), I do see in the diffs that the behavior has crossed a line into unacceptable and I will be discussing this with J.Delanoy just as soon as I'm finished writing this to you. I can tell from his edit summaries that he was not in a good place when he wrote some of that stuff, but I should expect an experienced editor would know when to walk away rather than become uncivil. Realize that I am not actually letting you off the hook here, although I see that some of the comments made by Ledrush that I took out of context to be passive aggressive (i.e. I did not know that JD had previously mentioned his schoolwork) actually aren't as bad as I thought now that I've seen what he was responding to. That being said, you [both of you] are still not the victims here. You need to realize that in a discussion, repeating the same argument over and over again does not make it true, and the very definition of tendentious editing is an editor who continues to question consensus on a technicality after it has been clearly decided, which seems to have happened here. Although sometimes it is difficult to accept, this sort of situation is usually indicative that your viewpoints are in the minority and maybe you should move on. As for me (like anyone cares about me) I'm just upset that the "plastic cup" I got with my breakfast, made of corn, apparently (I live in the "San Francisco of Alaska"- so of course everyone only has non-petroleum based stuff), seems to be melting onto my desk. Biodegradable products only work if they, well, work I guess. L'Aquatique[talk] 17:50, 11 November 2008 (UTC) L'Aquatique...I have been a contributor on the Obama page for a long time, usually arguing with consensus against adding things to the article that were not intended to make it better. People should be able to separate the previous discussions from the current. Also, I do not believe that consensus has been reached or that we have engaged in tendentious editing. There is a proposal on the table now which supports my view of the situation, as does the history of the discussion before the straw poll (which I feel was designed to get the "regulars" to respond quickly and overwhelmingly. I can see how you would mistakenly believe consensus was reached just by looking at the straw poll, but I believe that is also a manifestation of the "wolf pack" mentality that has pervade this article. I admit that I bare some responsibility for this as I often stayed silent as the pack argued against positions I disagreed with using these same unfair tactics (which, in fact, might have been necessary to defend the article from aggressive editors during an election.) Anyway, I appreciate you taking the time to at least listed to Landon and I, even if we don't agree. If that had happened on the Obama page, I doubt any of this would be happening.LedRush (talk) 18:00, 11 November 2008 (UTC) your civility warning (2) I will assume that you are not deliberately ignnoring the horribly uncivil behavior against Landon and I, but I feel your warning to me was completely unwarranted. I made my "passive agressive" comments to people who type in caps, bold, swear, and insult. I have not done these things myself, instead reminding people to keep their heads. I believe that not only is this not civil, it is the duty of Wikipedia editors to ensure conversations don't degenerate. Once Landon shows you the diffs, I would appreciate an apology, or at least an adequate explaination. It is disheartening to come into discussions with an idea and not be given a civil opportunity to present it. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but I do expect people to listen and respond to the points honestly.LedRush (talk) 16:53, 11 November 2008 (UTC) Hmm, I do not believe an apology is exactly warranted here: your remarks were out of line and my calling you on them was appropriate, as much as I can tell. Bad behavior on others' part, no matter who or where they may be, does not give an excuse to display bad behavior in response. That said, if the claims made by Landon and yourself are true, which I expect they will be (at least to some degree), then I do owe you a thanks for at least attempting to remain civil when others around you do not- an admirable behavior and one which I know from experience can be very taxing. You have my word that given evidence I will confront the others on their behaviors. Insults such as the ones you have described cannot go unnoticed, especially from an admin who should know better. If nothing else, I make a strong attempt to be fair. L'Aquatique[talk] 17:01, 11 November 2008 (UTC) Thank you for your gracious response. I feel that your warning may have been appropriate if they hadn't engaged in bad behavior because telling people not to engage in bad behavior when they haven't is borderline uncivil. However, as the evidence below clearly shows, my warning to them were not a passive aggressive attack or an unwarranted warning. They were polite responses and calls to remain civil in light of the circumstances.LedRush (talk) 17:19, 11 November 2008 (UTC) Also, I'd like to point out that your accusation towards me being borderline uncivil (because of passive aggressive statement) could be interpreted to be borderline uncivil itself for the same reason. You have since admitted that my comments that prompted your response weren't passive aggressive or uncivil, so it would be natural for me to see it that way as well. If we take that as a starting point, your warning to me could be seen as passive aggressive and uncivil. I now understand your mistake, but thought it worth pointing out that you are also part of the double standard you've conceded exists. I don't mean these statements to be as accusatory as they may seem, but I thought them worth mentioning. (also, sorry for dominating your talk page...hopefully you can quickly archive this)LedRush (talk) 18:52, 11 November 2008 (UTC) There are too many comments to do diffs well, so here are some cut and pasted examples (with some sections deleted for brevity): If Landon and Led would actually read what my poll was for, it would greatly aid everything. I wanted to know what people thought that FIRST FEW SENTENCES SHOULD SAY. I did not mention any of the rest of the article, or even the rest of the lead. Jesus, if you would stop assuming what I am saying and actually READ it, none of this last 20 or 30 KB of text would have been necessary. ... I also note that you inexplicably refuse to voice your opinion in the straw poll, instead continuing on and on with your random babbling. J.delanoygabsadds 03:08, 11 November 2008 (UTC) Oh please Landon, the "I'm the victim" ploy is bullshit. Grsz11 →Review! 04:21, 11 November 2008 (UTC) You are damn right I have a short temper. Especially when, at midnight, in the middle of trying to do three assignments for college, I am dealing with people who can't see their nose in front of their faces. For crying out loud. How many times, and in how may ways do we have to tell you that your opinion is just that: your opinion, and that it is overwhelmingly obvious that the majority of editors do not agree with you? J.delanoygabsadds 04:37, 11 November 2008 (UTC) And don't give me the whole "remain civil" crap. According to Merriam-Webster's online dictionary: "civil often suggests little more than the avoidance of overt rudeness <owed the questioner a civil reply>". Please. If I was really uncivil, believe me, you would know it. J.delanoygabsadds 04:41, 11 November 2008 (UTC) Consensus surely can change, that is what the is what the poll is asking. Oh, my god. Why can't you get this through your head? ... I am assuming bad faith here, but I would be willing to lay good money that if the straw poll was going your way, you would be trumpeting the consensus that has been achieved. ... Why won't you just drop it? J.delanoygabsadds 03:14, 11 November 2008 (UTC) Landon, you cried for a discussion and now that it happened it's "not accurate"? What more do you want man? Grsz11 →Review! 03:18, 11 November 2008 (UTC) [end]LedRush (talk) 17:19, 11 November 2008 (UTC) Whoa, firstly, please don't put statements /before/ previously posted statements, it makes them incredibly difficult to find. Secondly, while I concede that you have the right to your opinion, I hope you realize that I've spent the last hour- time I should have been using to work on classwork and other real life stuff- sitting here trying to work this out with you two and now discussing it with J.Delanoy- who, if you'll notice, has now struck the offending comments. I really honestly do not believe I am part of the problem. But, as I said, you have the right to think what you want. L'Aquatique[talk] 18:57, 11 November 2008 (UTC) Now it is my turn to apologize. I put the comments before the quoted sections for simplicity and ease (keeping the conversation together without the extra junk). I am sorry you didn't find it helpful. I didn't mean to say that you are a problem. I only meant to voice my opinion that you, too, have demonstrated a double standard with how you've handled JD and I. You made a bad assumption about me and warned me publicly, as it turns out for comments that did not contain the meaning you assigned them (and consequently made the type of statement that you had chided me for). However, to the instigator and the uncivil party you discreetly mentioned the issue on his talk page in incredibly mild language. This is, of course, natural. You have a good relationship with him and know him to be a good editor, while, despite my long history on the Obama article, you have no such relationship or opinion of me. I really appreciate the time you've spent on this, which I will readily concede has been too long already. While perhaps I am not expressing this well enough in my posts, I feel much better about the situation, and Wikipedia, than I did last night, and you are largely responsible for this.LedRush (talk) 19:09, 11 November 2008 (UTC) For what it is worth, I believe that I am the primary driver behind this problem. My conduct was unacceptable, and I believe that since I, an administrator, was behaving the way I was, I encouraged other users to assume bad faith and make snarky comments. I apologize for sowing discord, and I will not likely make any more comments in that discussion, since it has become too personal (for me at least) for some reason. J.delanoygabsadds 19:11, 11 November 2008 (UTC) JD, it is incredibly gracious of you to post that here. On a board like this, on an article that has seen so much temper-flare in the past months, it is entirely expected that some comments will cross the line. For my part, I need to fight the need I have to ensure that all of my arguments are at least heard and properly characterized. This makes me often post on topics too often (as I have done here and the Obama discussion page). This understandably pissed people off and makes them believe I am just posting again and again until I get my way. If I could make my positions and intent more clear, and remain more civil, a lot of this could also be avoided. Again, thank you for your comments.LedRush (talk) 19:18, 11 November 2008 (UTC) I appreciate that you took the time to deal with this, and I am happy with the results. JD handled the situation with class and you could tell he was genuine and sincere in his apology. Not that I'm all that valuable of a contributor anyways, but the double standard around here causes me to lose a lot of faith in the project. Compare the comments that lead to this discussion with one another, then compare your tone and how you handeled it. Here is how you handled the far less uncivil comment that was a response to something much more uncivil. "I strongly suggest you [LedRush] tone it down a notch. Your comments are borderline uncivil, but more than that they are not conducive to discussion. Take a tea break or something. L'Aquatique[talk] 07:59, 11 November 2008 (UTC)" Now here "tsk tsk, now JD, don't curse at people and tell them they can't find their nose (even if it's true)." You even made sure to tell him he was right, and that you agreed with him. You even said that you didn't know if you could apologize to us like he did on this talk page. Enough said I think, and I believe I have made my point. Landon1980 (talk) 19:58, 11 November 2008 (UTC) Yes, I believe you have. Next time you quote me, don't put words in my mouth. End of story. L'Aquatique[talk] 02:36, 12 November 2008 (UTC) Which words did I put in your mouth exactly? You said tsk tsk, you told him you agreed with him, and you said "even if it's true" suggesting that even though I couldn't see my nose he shouldn't tell me that. The far less uncivil editor you used a much harsher tone such as "strongly suggest" you started the other with "Hope this finds you well" you described the comment that really wasn't uncivil at all as "borderline uncivil" the other you described as "unecessarily bitey." You even told him that you doubted you could apologize to us. Whether you will admit to it or not, you were not fair and did not treat the two editor's with equal respect. You were a bit uncivil yourself in your initial warning to LedRush. You could have politely told him to try and be as civil as possible, nevermind the fact he was being extremely civil under the circumstances. His comment was directly under those comments of JD's, yet you single out LedRush like that? I have a hard time believing you did not see JD's comments. If LedRush's attitude was hindering discussion then without a doubt JD's comments was exterminating it. Nothing productive will ever come of discussing this, you said you tried to be fair so I pointed out your unfairness. Landon1980 (talk) 04:29, 12 November 2008 (UTC) Okay. I spend a good part of my day being an advocate for you, and the response is that I'm being unfair. That's fine. You can think what you want, I really couldn't care less. But I'm archiving this discussion, no further good can come of it. L'Aquatique[talk] 06:42, 12 November 2008 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Discussion of topic ban Since you contributed to the ANI discussion that led to this, you may wish to contribute to the topic ban discussion here: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Proposed_topic_ban:_User:Pcarbonn_from_Cold_fusion_and_related_articles. Regards, SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 21:17, 11 November 2008 (UTC) Rollback Would you consider giving me permission for rollback? HairyPerry 17:52, 12 November 2008 (UTC) I have a lot of vandal reverts and a lot of warnings given out as well, using the undo feature and putting revert of vandalism on the edit summary, but back to your comments. I have already tried to install twinkle and huggle in monobook and neiter one of them did anything so yeah thats where I stand, I don't think its right not to give me rollback by the way. But hey its the admins decision, not mine, I guess I'll be patient. HairyPerry 13:49, 13 November 2008 (UTC) Well, you can't install huggle in your monobook, it's an application. However, twinkle should work as long as you are installing it in the right monobook (there's two). You should be placing this text: importScript('User:AzaToth/twinkle.js'); in your monobook.js. I'm going to try to install it for you, I want you to let me know if, after purging your cache, it works for you. If it doesn't, I would like to know what browser and operating system you are using and we'll go from there. L'Aquatique[talk] 20:51, 13 November 2008 (UTC) Mmmkay, it's installed. You had some weird stuff in your monobook, I'm rather surprised you weren't having more problems with your user interface. See if it works now. L'Aquatique[talk] 20:57, 13 November 2008 (UTC) I didn't know what I was doing and I don't see anything extra so, I don't think it worked, ain't I supossed to have an extra tab or something? How do you even know? I don't know if its working or not because I don't know how to work it. HairyPerry 13:24, 14 November 2008 (UTC) You should have one or two extra tabs at the top, yes. What browser and operating system are you using? L'Aquatique[talk] 21:35, 14 November 2008 (UTC) I told you I use IE so I'm probably not going to get anything. HairyPerry 00:46, 15 November 2008 (UTC) Actually, you didn't tell me you were using I.E. Firefox is a free download,it takes literally like five minutes to get it and it works thousands of times better than IE. You really should use it. If for some reason you cannot install it, you should get at least some functionality by clicking the "Preferences" link up in the corner of your window with your login information, then "gadgets", and then scroll all the way down to the bottom of the list and checking the first box in the "Library and compatibility gadgets" subheader. Save the page, purge your cache, and let me know if anything changes. L'Aquatique[talk] 20:09, 15 November 2008 (UTC) Well sorry I use I.E. and I'm on a school computer, so yeah I can't install Firefox and I'll try whatever you just said and see what happens and message you later. HairyPerry 13:24, 17 November 2008 (UTC) Ok I did it, now what was that supossed to do? HairyPerry 15:22, 17 November 2008 (UTC) When you're viewing this page, see if there's an extra tab that says "warn". L'Aquatique[talk] 17:15, 17 November 2008 (UTC) No nothing, I don't know, if I can't get nothing I can't ever be the vandal fighter I want to be. I'll just be patient and wait for things to come along. HairyPerry 17:47, 17 November 2008 (UTC) WikiProject LGBT studies Newsletter This newsletter was sent by §hepBot (Disable) at 21:16, 12 November 2008 (UTC) by the request of Moni3 (talk) Speedy Delete Request See User_talk:Euqueria, User_talk:Rocco15FN, User_talk:Cfrisemo, User_talk:Saloob. See contributions for spamming articles related to Spreed - I added a speedy delete tag (Blatant advertising) - Also no 3rd party references, bragging, unreferenced facts, a primary reference they provided does not refer to them or their product. Also delete as per WP:V and WP:N. Single focus contribs by all (4) sockpuppets. As an admin that has been involved with a speedy deletes I thought i'd post this to your attention. - Cheers - DustyRain (talk) 21:50, 13 November 2008 (UTC) Yet another user "reopening" the Acorn AN/I sock discussion Not sure what the rules here are. Noroton a multiply banned POV warrior with the same views as the recently banned group of socks, has returned to the encyclopedia for the first time in a month (he said he was "retiring" after his 7th block, in mid-octomber) and reopened the closed discussion on this matter for a variety of long-winded and tedious reasons. My inclination is just to delete his comments and reclose, but i'm not an admin and have been an involved party. So, if you get this and are inclined to take a look, would be grateful.Bali ultimate (talk) 22:08, 13 November 2008 (UTC) For no particular reason! A gezunt in zayn pupik. :) X MarX the Spot (talk) 09:58, 14 November 2008 (UTC) Uh, thanks. L'Aquatique[talk] 09:37, 15 November 2008 (UTC) Picture Request L'Aquatique, are you geographically located such that you could take a photograph or two to illustrate Wasilla Assembly of God? Thanks, Jclemens (talk) 05:40, 15 November 2008 (UTC) Well, it would be about a $800 flight out of the bush for me to get there! So... no, sorry. You should try one of these folks: Category:Wikipedians in Anchorage, Alaska, they're quite a bit closer. L'Aquatique[talk] 06:11, 15 November 2008 (UTC) Egch. So, you edit Wikipedia because there's nothing else to do out there, eh? :-) Out of curiosity, which part? I grew up in Juneau. At any rate, thanks for the pointers. Jclemens (talk) 06:15, 15 November 2008 (UTC) Juneau, actually. I didn't know you were Alaskan- I usually only describe Juneau as bush to outsiders because they hear that I live in a city and think it's not remote. As you well know- there's no roads out so we might as well be in the bush. Where in Juneau did you grow up? I live in Lemon Creek right now, trying to find an affordable place downtown. L'Aquatique[talk] 06:18, 15 November 2008 (UTC) Too funny. When I think "bush" I think places like Whale Pass. I grew up in the valley, left in 1993 in search of adventure. Was just there in August for my mom's birthday. Jclemens (talk) 06:22, 15 November 2008 (UTC) I usually think Bethel, Barrow, Adak, etc. Juneau doesn't make the list, really! But people who've never been to Alaska don't get the idea of being off the road system, like what that means, you know? I always think it's funny- people from Alaska leave in search of adventure, and other people come here in search of adventure. Me, I'm not in it for the adventure, I'm just like it here. It's quiet, especially in the winter. L'Aquatique[talk] 06:31, 15 November 2008 (UTC) Well, if I was completely honest, I suppose I could say I left in search of a job that didn't involve working for the state and/or selling trinkets to tourists, or that I was looking for better selection in women... both would be at least as accurate as saying I left in search of adventure, but I rarely do anything for just one reason. I didn't make it too far--I'm in Washington now. And yeah, Alaska is something that many people just don't "get"--I had to explain the Alaska Independence Party to quite a few people during the campaign. Jclemens (talk) 06:37, 15 November 2008 (UTC) All good reasons! I don't think I could live outside of the Northwest, unless I left the country. I'd like to go to British Columbia, or maybe New Zealand. L'Aquatique[talk] 06:48, 15 November 2008 (UTC) Parts of Maine are nice, too. It's not Alaska, but it's still nice. :-) Jclemens (talk) 17:53, 15 November 2008 (UTC) NPW Hey, I was just curious if you could help me with this. I've had the request up for a weeks and nobody seems want to mess with me I suppose :) Anyways, I was doing some article patrolling and just realizing how much of a pain it is to manually type in the template code, leave a message for the user, welcome the user if they're new, etc. It would be cool to automate the process. Anyways, if I don't qualify for some reason, that's ok too. I just really would like to know one way or the other. Thanks! DigitalNinjaWTF 07:23, 16 November 2008 (UTC) Taken care of. The thing with NPW permissions is since it's not part of rfperms it's not usually watched. Sometimes you've gotta just hunt down an admin and poke 'em with a stick a few times. Let me know if you have any problems. L'Aquatique[talk] 07:28, 16 November 2008 (UTC) Thank you! You're the best. Now, get to bed! DigitalNinjaWTF 07:39, 16 November 2008 (UTC) It's only 10:30, mooooom. I still have a paper to write. L'Aquatique[talk] 07:41, 16 November 2008 (UTC) Article you might like to help me with, or else… See Felix Pedro. — CharlotteWebb 12:59, 16 November 2008 (UTC) Hey Dear L'Aquatique, how is your life going? It has been a long time since we last talked! AdjustShift (talk) 14:59, 16 November 2008 (UTC) It's going pretty well. Writing essays, reading textbooks, you know- the usual! L'Aquatique[talk] 07:01, 17 November 2008 (UTC) I find this !vote interesting. Finally we have the Alaskan cabal! :-) AdjustShift (talk) 09:25, 17 November 2008 (UTC) Well, it seems the cabal was brought forth into existence when I was sysopped, hopefully it will gain in power once Mizu also gets the bit... (muahahaha) L'Aquatique[talk] 09:42, 17 November 2008 (UTC) If you're going to block an IP at least get it right. I am *not* "Suave.sean" 75.168.214.145 (talk) 23:13, 17 November 2008 (UTC)