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February 4

The man who saved pimperdale

Can any body give me a clue on where I can get this story —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.181.98.39 (talk) 05:10, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

No sorry, but I have heard of a different story "The man who saved pumplesdrop". It was story of a small town with no/few economic activities. A poor man walks in and just for fun makes a few inquiries at a car dealer for new car and walks away. The car dealer thinks that he will get lot of money by the deal and spends some money at other shop. The other shop keeper thinks that now business is going well, he spends some money somewhere else. And all of sudden the town comes out of the economic slowdown. I could not find the complete story. It was part of English lesson in school. manya (talk) 07:28, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

The 'Sri Satya Sai University' lists author of the "The man who saved pumplesdrop" story as W.J.Turner in their Syllabus - manya (talk) 07:39, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Mack Reynolds used a similar plot in one of his novels; perhaps Depression or Bust. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 09:58, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

And our respective governments are currently trying much the same tactic: inspiring us to spend. Gwinva (talk) 21:08, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Portrait of Samuel Adams

The well-known Copley portrait of Samuel Adams is all over the Internet—it's the one at the top of our article on Adams—but there's another portrait of Adams, painted in 1795 by a John Johnston when Adams was governor of Massachusetts. The only version of this I've found on the net is here, an engraved version with a Corbis watermark. Does the original painting still exist? Do you know of any other versions of it online? Thanks! —Kevin Myers 06:59, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Your search, I'm afraid, will be in vain. According to William Vincent Wells, The Life and Public Services of Samuel Adams 1865, vol. III, p. 884, note 2, there were a lifesize portrait of Adams and a matching portrait of his wife by Major John Johnson in the house in Winter Street, Boston, listed in the probate inventory taken 12 December 1803. "The painting of Mrs. Adams still exists. That of Governor Adams, taken in 1795, was destroyed a few years since by fire". The engraving, a folio mezzotint by Graham is mentioned. Another mezzotint of Adams, after a copy by J. Mitchell of the Copley portrait, 1775, is also mentioned.--Wetman (talk) 12:15, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! I suspected that the portrait is lost, since practically every biography of Adams uses the Copley portrait on the cover. Now, what we need on Wikimedia Commons is a good copy of the engraving of the Johnson portrait without a Corbis watermark. If anyone sees one, don't keep it a secret! —Kevin Myers 14:25, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

"Kahn Lectures" at Princeton (on art, architecture)

Writing about a Swedish art historian, Johnny Roosval, who held the "Kahn Lectures" at Princeton in 1929 on the topic of "Swedish art", I tried to find out what these were, but the only other result I get is that of Frank Lloyd Wright's Kahn lectures on "Modern architecture" the following year, 1930.

Is this is a long-running series that is just somehow difficult to find through Google, or were these two years the only times these lectures were ever held? Who was the Kahn who gave his name -- or whose name was given -- to the lectures? --Hegvald (talk) 07:20, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Louis Kahn was a noted architect, but I can not find any references to these lectures, either. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 09:59, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I thought about Louis Kahn, but he was just a young man at the time. --Hegvald (talk) 10:25, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I did not check the dates before my posting. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 16:35, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Googling is complicated by the existence of the more recently inaugurated Louis I. Kahn Memorial Lecture, also at Princeton.--Wetman (talk) 10:32, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

There is also the older architect Albert Kahn (1869–1942). But with the way things are named at American universities, one should perhaps be looking for a capitalist donor as the namesake rather than a practising artist, architect or art historian. How about Otto Hermann Kahn (1867-1934), "investment banker, collector, philanthropist, and patron of the arts"? --Hegvald (talk) 10:25, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually, another kind of Google search confirms that it is Otto Kahn who is the donor in this case. But the relevant news hits are all pay-per-view. Still, from the snippet I can see of the Christian Science Monitor article, it says that: "A gift of $1500 a year for five years to the Department of Art and Archaelogy [sic!] at Princeton University has just been made by Otto Kahn of...".

The question remains if these lectures actually continued for five years or if the donation was so badly invested that they couldn't continue after the first two years. --Hegvald (talk) 10:53, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Here is the full NYT article: [1] --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 15:30, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! --Hegvald (talk) 15:53, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I finally found a good source, the introduction to the newest edition of Wright's lectures, which I used as the basis for an article: Kahn Lectures. I bypassed most of the detailed discussion of Wright's lectures. --Hegvald (talk) 15:53, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Speeding safety

Hi, I have a controversial issue... are there situations in which it's actually safer to go over the posted speed limit? Or is that just a myth? I realize that the posted speed limit is designed to keep people from driving too fast to be safe, but what if everyone else on the road is going, say, 10 km/hr above the limit (I live in Canada)? Does that mean if you drive at the speed limit, you would be blocking traffic and might cause accidents? I'd especially be interested to know if there are any actual cases in which someone caused an accident by driving at the speed limit. Thanks Jonathan ^talk 15:55, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

It certainly is true that having all vehicles go the same speed is safer, but whether you blame the speeders, the law-abiding, or the absurdly slow limit for speed differences is a matter of opinion. There are other cases where speeding could save lives, like when someone requiring emergency assistance is on the way to the hospital. This is why police vehicles and ambulances are allowed to exceed the limit. Unfortunately, your average car is not allowed to, even when carrying the same patient. StuRat (talk) 17:10, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't have a source, but my intuition tells me that having all vehicles go the same speed is not safer. Left to their own devices, competent drivers will tend to drive at a speed appropriate to the conditions. But, there will be some variance among individuals. Pretty much every time I'm on the freeway, I see cars all clumped together, presumably owing to not wanting a speeding ticket. If we didn't have these ridiculous speed limits, there'd be more small variations in speed and the cars would tend to clump together less. Not having cars all clumped together certainly seems safer to me. That said, going much faster than the traffic around you can certainly be unsafe. Also, when passing, it's safe to spend as little time as possible in the "wrong" lane. So more speed helps there. I suspect if someone caused an accident by going the speed limit, the blame would instead be placed on all the cars around them who exceeded the speed limit. At least where I live, it's blindingly obvious to the casual observer that speed limits are about revenue generations, not safety. If traffic cops cared about safety, they'd be actually watching people drive and giving tickets to people doing dangerous things, rather than sitting there reading a magazine with their radar guns on. The one-size-fits-all speed limits really are preposterous- why should my car (a high-performance model, in good condition) be subject to the same limits as a semi, or some 6000lb monstrosity of an SUV that can't turn or stop in a reasonable distance? Hmm. I suppose this is more of a rant than a ref desk answer, so take it with a grain of salt. Friday (talk) 17:20, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

To the last question: because E=0.5MV^2 applies just as much to you as the next man. Quite why driving at a safe braking distance behind the car in front comes to be "dangerous clumping" is beyond me. Pip pip, Toad. --Tagishsimon (talk) 17:27, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't see how that equation helps make that point. My complaint was that these speed limits are aimed at vehicles with twice the mass and much poorer braking and handling performance, yet they are also blindly applied to smaller, better-performing cars. If higher energies mean more danger, shouldn't speed limits take mass into account? Friday (talk) 17:37, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I'd look at the contribution mass make to that equation, in comparison with the contribution made by velocity. Velocity disproportionately contributes. Which somewhat answers your question. --Tagishsimon (talk) 17:45, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

True, but the variation in speed between a "slow" and a "fast" car, on a given road, might be 20mph or so - say around 25% of the speed. Contrast this with variation in mass, which can easily be over 100% when comparing a small car to a big car, or over 1000-2000% when comparing a car to a semi with trailer. I'd like it if speed limits were designed by taking physics into account, but my point is that I don't believe they are. They're a bit like bumper laws- in the US, car bumpers have to perform to a certain level, for safety and to minimize damage in minor collisions. A car with bad bumpers isn't legal to sell. Yet, it's legal to drive around with a big steel spike (i.e. a trailer hitch) sticking out the back of your car. These laws do not appear to be based on anything rational or consistent. Friday (talk) 18:03, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

A "semi with a trailer" in the UK would be constrained to, IIRC, 50mph whilst cars can go to 70mph. If you compare car mass with car mass, you get the same sort of bell curve as you will for speed. Do you think there's a practical way to mandate variable speed limits according to the amount of ceramics in your brake system? Really? Designing rational and consistent and practical law is not so simple, and your argument is of the best driving out the good. --Tagishsimon (talk) 18:16, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I ran numbers for a 50,000lb truck at 50mph vs a 3,000lb car at 70. I get about 5.7e+6 joules for the truck and about 6.7e+5 joules for the car. Now, obviously, real-world safety is more complicated than simply comparing energies. And, sure, you can't easily enforce some law that requires complicated calculations. But, you could easily divide vehicles into say 3 or 4 different classes, with speed limits differing according to class. I know it can be complicated. My complaint is that the lawmakers don't even appear to be trying. They're satisfied with their money-generating speed laws, and don't seem interested in learning what actually makes driving safer. But, heck, this is just my opinion, it doesn't count for much. Look at what the sources say. Friday (talk) 18:32, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

They tend to say things like:

• If someone is hit by a car at 40 mph they are 90% likely to be killed.

  If someone is hit by a car at 30 mph they are 50% likely to be killed.

  If someone is hit by a car at 20 mph they are 10% likely to be killed.

and oddly they do not ruminate on weight. --Tagishsimon (talk) 18:40, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, with car vs pedestrian, speed is very significant. Lately people have been paying attention to vehicle shape also- taller cars are more dangerous. Mass matters little- energy transfer is not a big issue there. Friday (talk) 18:45, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

True - in terms of personal vehicles, off-roaders/SUVs etc are far more dangerous to pedestrians (and other cars for that matter) than more traditional vehicles. If you run an off-roader/SUV and have bull bars fitted, you might as well have a bumper sticker saying "I don't mind killing children if I can't stop in time" - they are incredibly dangerous to pedestrians and the bars are typically just about the right height to smash children's heads. A more conventional car hitting a pedestrian will generally cause leg injuries and less serious upper body injuries as the pedestrian "rolls over" the bonnet (hood in USA parlance). Exxolon (talk) 20:12, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

BTW this is a link that seems relevant. Friday (talk) 18:18, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Then the lead of National Motorists Association - "a for-profit corporation ... that advocates a libertarian point of view on issues related to traffic laws" - also seems relevant. You could equally have cited US DOT Report Confirms Speed Not Major Accident Cause which notes that "'traveling too fast for conditions' accounted for only five percent of the critical pre-crash events", but goes on to say "More significant factors included 22 percent driving off the edge of a road, or 11 percent who drifted over the center dividing line", both of which things tend to happen faster, with less scope for decision time and greatly constrained options for avoidance, as speed increases. Of course you have a point: all things being equal, a more performant car (if you'll excuse the neologism) will outperform a less performant car. Making a leap from that to a criticism of blanket speed limits is another thing entirely. --Tagishsimon (talk) 18:27, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I normally keep to the speed limits but one time I had gone through a puddle and the brakes failed just as I was coming up to a junction, so I pressed on the accelerator instead to get over quickly and not get smashed in on the side. The people coming across must have got a shock. Dmcq (talk) 11:13, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Looking for a coin I bought that I cant find. online

the coin I am trying to find out about is 'GEORGIVS VI REX IMPERATOR "2.5 shillings" SOUTH AFRICA SUID-AFRIKA "1941"spelled exatly like it is on obverse and reverse sides, it is a silver coin from south africa the front simply has the the profile of the afor mentiond person with his name stamped on the outer edge of it and the back has a shild-like symble split verticly by a thin line and horizontily by a waved line that cuts it into four sections with the upper left holding what appers to be a woman leaning on a mountian with an ancor brest hight in front of her,the upper right holds a lion leaping onto a wildabeast,the bottem left holds some sort of fruit-bearing tree in grass,and the bottem right holds an old car with spoks for rims.and i allredy know that 'suid-afrika' is from when the dutch rulled south africa,but my problem seems to be that (1)this coin dose not show up on any search engine that I have used. (2)wikipedia dose not have any south african coins under georgivs VI rex imperator. (3) It does not seem to exist!?!.2/4/09 10:40 cen.time 72.251.10.0 (talk) 16:42, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Georgivs VI is George VI. REX IMPERATOR means King Emperor (he was King of the United Kingdom, South Africa, and several other countries, and Emperor of India). 1941 is the date of the coin. A shilling was 12 old pence (or one-twentieth of a pound). DuncanHill (talk) 16:52, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

We don't seem to have a picture of the coin you describe, but the article Coins of the South African pound does have some more information. DuncanHill (talk) 16:55, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

2½ shillings is called a Half Crown, which may help in further googling. DuncanHill (talk) 16:58, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

This google image search has some pictures [2]

The image on the reverse is the Coat of arms of South Africa, 1910 version, the article explains the different symbols. DuncanHill (talk) 17:08, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

thank you for going to all the truble on my behalf I greatly appritate it your infomation has ben invalueble and thank you agine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.251.10.0 (talk) 17:36, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Sources on women in Islam

(Moved from Language Desk. Oops. Marco polo (talk) 17:09, 4 February 2009 (UTC))

I am looking for Islamic sources on the place of women in that religion. I have already found several Muslim feminist sources that stress the equality of women under Islam. What I am having trouble finding is a more traditional view of the place of women, i.e. that women need to be protected by men, to conceal themselves for their own protection, etc. This is for presentation to schoolchildren aged 11–12 and for scrutiny by parents and teachers. I have found some (translations of) direct quotes from the Quran and the Hadith that would not be suitable for this audience since they suggest violence against women or are otherwise insulting and degrading. What I am looking for is a paternalistic (but not insulting) view of women to counterpose with a feminist view to help students learn about different approaches to this question within the religion and to teach them to critically assess point of view in written sources. Can anyone suggest appropriate sources? Thanks. Marco polo (talk) 15:48, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Women in Islam would be the logical starting point. --Maltelauridsbrigge (talk) 16:37, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, I took a look there before posting my query and found nothing useful. Can anyone suggest non-Wikipedia sources? Marco polo (talk) 17:09, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Did you check the "See Also" and "Further Reading" sections for more useful info? Exxolon (talk) 20:06, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes. Nothing useful there. Marco polo (talk) 20:14, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

How about the website of Yusuf al-Qaradawi or the websites of the Shi'a Grand Ayatollahs? Itsmejudith (talk) 20:38, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

What about phoning your local mosque? (Sorry to be obvious, but...) I've also found this site, with this tone:

"It would appear therefore that the Islamic system has achieved the right mixture of freedom and security that women seek and that is in the interest of the society as a whole."

BrainyBabe (talk) 00:03, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Is tea ever smoked?

I mean, is tea ever smoked, as in smoking? Because I was talking with some people the other day and we got onto the topic of smoking tea. Who does this? And how is it smoked? (as in, using Rizla skins, or using a pipe, or whatever).--ParrRae (talk) 19:14, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Tea can be smoked as in smoking salmon, not as in smoking tobacco. See Lapsang souchong for a delicious smoke-dried tea. I've never heard of anyone smoking tea as a substitute for tobacco, or for whatever other reason. Burnt tea leaves smell pretty bad. --Dr Dima (talk) 20:53, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I can say from personal experience that tea is highly unsatisfactory as a tobacco substitute. DuncanHill (talk) 20:56, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

That is expected, as there is no nicotine in tea plant (Camellia sinensis). Nicotine is only found in Solanaceae as far as I know. As for caffeine (theine) in tea leaves, it is likely destroyed by heating. --Dr Dima (talk) 21:07, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I mean caffeine is destroyed when smoking or, to some extent, when boiling tea (see chifir', preferrably the Russian Wiki article). It is not destroyed when brewing tea properly, of course. --Dr Dima (talk) 21:11, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

It's not simply the lack of nicotine - it also does not burn in an acceptable fashion, and lacks the great taste of real tobacco. DuncanHill (talk) 21:37, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I had a friend who as a virtually penniless student used to keep the tab-ends of cigarettes and when he ran out he would recycle this tar-ridden tobacco by making a roll up and "diluting" it with tea. They were disgusting - I tried the same thing once. They had a dry acrid taste and because we obviously used cheap tea which was powdery you would get flakes of dry tea in your mouth. My friend found it a price worth paying for the nicotine hit though. -- Q Chris (talk) 12:02, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

At one time, "tea" was a term for marijuana, or as amusingly stated on the Tea (disambiguation) page, "beatnik slang for herbal cannabis". --LarryMac | Talk 21:14, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Hence the line from the Aerosmith classic song Mama Kin "Sleeping late and smoking Tea". --Jayron32.talk.contribs 05:50, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

I've tried Lapsang souchong... many times actually. Smoking tea may seem just like a juvenile experimentation with what could lead to tobacco smoking, but is there any history of tea being smoked (as in orally smoked, not like like smoked salmon) in culture?--ParrRae (talk) 21:57, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I mean I don't smoke myself because of the health reasons primarily.--ParrRae (talk) 22:48, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I found garlic stems a very delicate smoking (really). On the opposite side, I heard of one fellow trying tobacco infusion, with unsatisfaction and regret pma (talk) 23:15, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Nicotine is highly poisonous. You friend would have been better advised to use his brew as a drench of the Schefflera.--Wetman (talk) 11:42, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

There's always smoking banana peels. AnonMoos (talk) 04:44, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

The rumor was spread in Adams House dining room, ca 1966, expressly to embarrass the United Fruit Company.--Wetman (talk) 11:42, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

What parts of the constitution overrules the Ten Commandments?

This question has been removed. Please do not use the Reference Desk as a soapbox. Malcolm XIV (talk) 20:04, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

The discussion about whether or not this was soapboxing is here: [3]. StuRat (talk) 19:17, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

World illiteracy before 1970

The literacy page cites Unesco data of world illiteracy since 1970. Does anyone know of any older data than this? I didn't find any earlier illiteracy data at the World Bank either. Jacob Lundberg (talk) 21:13, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Dr. Paul Chitwood

I would like for Wikipedia to post a biographical sketch/history of Dr. Paul Chitwood, who was recently elected chairman of the board of trustees of the International Mission Board. Chitwood currently serves as the senior pastor of First Baptist Church in Mt. Washington, KY, and has served as the president of the Kentucky Baptist Convention, first vice-president of the KBC, and as the president of the KBC's pastor conference. Chitwood currently resides in Mt. Washington with his wife, Michelle, and his three children (one of whom was adopted from China). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.152.239.6 (talk) 21:27, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Are there any reliable sources to show that Dr Chitwood is notable? If he meets WP's policies in those regards, then feel free to write the article yourself. If he does not meet those policies, then WP will not post a biography. Gwinva (talk) 21:52, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

February 5

Bal Thackeray's cartoon oeuvre

Bal Thackeray was a cartoonist in a previous life (so to speak), but I can't find any examples of his work. Does anyone know where I might be able to find it? Lantzy ^talk 00:39, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Hi Lantzy, I found this self-portrait[4] but the site itself doesn't come up; [5]; "bashing" Gandhi [6] and another [7]. google images is your friend, too -- Julia Rossi (talk) 08:55, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

The first and last links are to satirical cartoons about Bal Thackeray, but I was interested in cartoons he himself had created. I had checked Google Images and there don't seem to be any examples of his work there. Lantzy ^talk 15:57, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

No luck then, my apols. Julia Rossi (talk) 05:22, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Justification of text in typesetting

Have any studies been done comparing the readability of justified text and text with a ragged right margin? Many thanks. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 06:36, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

I see Typographic alignment doesn't explain the benefits, then there's Justification (typesetting); but this[8], [9] and this[10] considers the readability. This[11] suggests slow readers do better with the ragged edge. More on cognitive disability re your question topic[12] Somewhere in there are stats, but tl:dr, sorry... Julia Rossi (talk) 08:32, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

There's one problem I sometimes have when reading small left-justified text where each line is quite long: When I start at the beginning of the next line I often either miss a line or repeat a line. Either centered text or right-justified text can help here, as the jagged left edge provides more of a "landmark" to help me find my way back. Of course, there are other ways this could be done, like making each line of text a different color. Or, more simply, making each paragraph only contain a sentence or two would help so I could use the blank lines between paragraphs as a landmark. Double- and triple-spacing also helps. StuRat (talk) 18:48, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Grapheme-color synesthesia and the four colour theorem

When it says there are a number of colours attached to objects, does it mean that there is only a small number of such colours that can be remembered by human brain, and hence the confusion of four similar names of persons at the end of article ?? --Highishuwakabirskoletti (talk) 13:57, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

What, if anything, does this have to do with the four colour theorem? Algebraist 16:19, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

To answer that, the two things are completely unrelated. The fact that there are 4 names mentioned in the synethesia article has no more connection to the 4-colour theorem than Three Coins in the Fountain has anything to do with the three sons of Noah. The four colour theorem is about a mathematical property of maps, where you never need more than than 4 colours in a coloured map to have contiguous areas in different colours. The synesthesia is about certain people who happen to perceive numbers and words and musical keys as possessing particular colours; such as Daniel Tammet, who was born on a Wednesday, and to him, Wednesdays are always blue, where other days of the week are other colours. He called his autobiography Born on a Blue Day. -- JackofOz (talk) 18:46, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

The theorem actually states that no map requires more than four colours. Algebraist 18:49, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, what he said. I've corrected my post. -- JackofOz (talk) 19:05, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Where do "I" go when I'm asleep?

My mind that is. I'm here, right here,-for now anyways. I shut my eyes, and I disappear. How?

I dream occasionally (with a whole new identity, sometimes). In between gazing at surreal scenes, I seem to regress into a hazy realm of non imprintable to memory experience. When I wake up, I feel myself being recreated, or "booted up", if you will. Then, off to wander around in a pointless, physical law prison.--Dr. Carefree (talk) 14:44, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

You might take a look at our article Dream for a scientific answer to your question. However, you seem to be looking for a more ontological or even spiritual response, which may be outside the scope of the Reference Desk. Marco polo (talk) 15:17, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Outside the scope of RD? Pah. The phrasing of the question reminds me of G. I. Gurdjieff's maxim "Life is only real when 'I' am", which had to do with his conception that much/most of our waking life is spent as, in effect, an automaton. Or of Robert E. Ornstein's multimind conjectures. I'd recommend either of these as people whose work deserves a read, though Gurdjieff is fairly impenetrable. But in short, both contest, for different reasons, the supposition that you "I" does exist as much as you think it does during waking hours. In sleep; I can't really answer, but presume there are periods during whichever areas of the brain normally manifest the "I" disengage or are disengaged. Very interesting area of study, the human consciousness.

Also take a look at subconscious and unconscious mind. In the waking state, it's the conscious mind that seems to be doing all the work, and the others seem "asleep" - although they're really not. In sleep, the other 2 take over, and give the conscious a bit of a rest. -- JackofOz (talk) 18:29, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Modest Mouse at 9:30 club in DC -- how much?

Tickets for Modest Mouse at the 9:30 club in Washington, DC, sold out instantly. Now they're going on eBay for $80 each. How much were they from the source? --zenohockey (talk) 15:43, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Ticket prices for Modest Mouse shows in Philadelphia are $32.00 and at the Rams Head Live! in Baltimore they are $38.50. The Baltimore location is not a bad place to see a concert (I was there last week) and it may be an option for you if you don't mind a little more (or less) of a drive to get there. Here is a link to the shows: [13] cheers, 10draftsdeep (talk) 17:28, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

(I know that didn't directly answer your question, but it is probably safe to estimate the Washington DC prices were somewhere in the same price range as the shows I listed.) 10draftsdeep (talk) 17:34, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

If you can believe Craigslist, $43. I saw prices up to $150 when I just googled. - BanyanTree 22:27, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, that's correct. I ended up buying a pair on eBay, and the seller thoughtfully forwarded me his confirmation email from Tickets.com. (I appreciate the Baltimore tip, but I won't have access to a car.) Thanks all. --zenohockey (talk) 19:59, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Unlisted savings banks

Could you please explain to me the difference between an "unlisted savings bank" and a "regular" bank. In Spain we have a huge percentage of the "unlisted" kind or "Cajas" as they are called here. In terms or financial safety, which is the best to bank with, are unlisted savings banks regulated? —Preceding unsigned comment added by COBrien2002 (talk • contribs) 17:46, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

This seems to me to be a poor place to seek financial advice. - Jmabel | Talk 23:13, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

This sounds like a pretty factual question to me (except for the "best to bank with" bit). I have no idea what the answer is, though... --Tango (talk) 23:26, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

A google search seems to only yield Spanish (nationality, not language) results for the term "unlisted savings bank", so I imagine it is only a Spanish distinction. It likely has to do with Spanish bank regulation (the rules that the banks have to follow). There may be better results from a Spanish language search. NByz (talk) 10:33, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Usually 'listed' means listed on the stock-exchange, so un-listed would be privately-owned or mutually-owned (or a co-operative or whatever). Or am I missing something here? 194.221.133.226 (talk) 11:39, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately, es:Banco#Clases de banco does not mention any types of banks that look as though they could translate to "unlisted savings bank". --Anonymous, 04:01 UTC, February 7, 2009.

consulting a different-language Wikipedia is cheating! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.124.81.87 (talk) 14:34, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Toronto District School Board teacher semester

Is this that a teacher at a semestered school will get one semester free after teaching his/her first five semesters and will he/she come back to school to teach his/her sixth semester? If it is, then, what about a teacher teaching t at a non-semestered school? How many years does he/she have to teach in order to get one year free and will he/she come back to teach his/her sixth semester? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.204.75.35 (talk) 19:08, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Not quite sure what the question is. However I'll try to say something relevant.

As a rule teachers in Ontario school boards don't get every sixth semester off, and I've never heard of that being true. I know several teachers in Ontario. However what can happen in some school boards is that a teacher can take an option to take a reduced pay rate for some period, and then take the equivalent time off at the end. So you could opt to take 3/4 pay for three years and then take a fourth year off, still at 3/4 pay (the board pays for the three years you have worked, but spread out over four years). But it's an option, not the norm, relatively rare, and I would imagine there are restrictions on who can do it. DJ Clayworth (talk) 20:45, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

You can find a copy of the just expired Collective Agreement between OSSTF and the TDSB which deals with such matters at [14]. The new agreement is currently under discussion. I don't recall hearing anything in the news that suggests changes proposed to what is called "Leave with Pay: Four for Five". A discussion of this option begins at section 4.4.4 on page 72 of the document (or otherwise counted as its 80th page). There is nothing said there about paid leave for anything less than an academic year. The teacher must request such leave by May 1st of the year before the year of the proposed leave, and then must agree to return to the TDSB for a further 4 years after the year of the leave, during which 5-year period the teacher receives only 80% of his grid salary. While the Board has an obligation to try and fill all requests for such paid leave, it is not obliged to do so, and may refuse a request on the basis of a threat to program stability or other program requirement. I couldn't find anything that said how long a teacher had to have been with the school board before such application could be made. (I am surprised that the 80% salary is not "in arrears", as it were. I would have expected a teacher to have had to have taught for 4 years at 80%, at which time the 5th year of paid leave could begin. That is not, however, what the document appears to say.) ៛ Bielle (talk) 21:15, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

I defer to my learned colleague, who clearly has a better knowledge of the details of this. DJ Clayworth (talk) 22:05, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

The term you want is sabbatical. I believe that they are relatively common for university staff, but probably rare for secondary schools. I can't answer your question in relation to Toronto.-gadfium 02:05, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

need help finding a yurei/yokai

I remember reading on the Wiki about a particular type of Japanese ghost which was connected with a recent urban legend. The spirit was supposedly the ghost of a beautiful woman whose husband had discovered she was cheating on him and as punishment had slit her mouth so it extended across her face. Apparently this ghost walks around in the evenings (This is the urban legend bit) with a surgical mask over her face, walks up to people, asks them if they think she's beautiful, and takes of the mask revealing her mouth. I can't for the life of me remember what this ghost is called. Anyone out there know? Library Seraph (talk) 19:24, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

I think what you're looking for is Kuchisake-Onna. Laenir (talk) 20:46, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Yup, that's it. Thanks Library Seraph (talk) 20:35, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Iraqi Provincial Elections, 2005 political parties based on ethnicity and religious sect

Which political parties consist of Sunni Arabs? Which political parties consist of Shi'a Arabs? Which political parties consist of Kurds? Which political parties consist of Arab Christians? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.14.119.87 (talk) 23:58, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Through this BBC article ([15]) you can find an informing overview of Iraqi parties, factions, and minorities. Click on hotlinks. Good luck. --Omidinist (talk) 05:34, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

February 6

The fact that English is an international language is like rape of people whose only language is English

They're not taught another language in schools and have no reason to use another language, yet the same is not true of other peoples. Hence others can talk in a code, but not them. Their communications are comprehensible to all others. Is this true?--Picturesonthewall (talk) 00:26, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

No, it's not true, and your comparison with rape is stupid and offensive. Communication in English is comprehensible by those who have English as a second language and are in earshot. Lack of a second language for a native English speaker is ... a shame and probably a wasted opportunity. I suggest you try to think through the wilder elements of your assertion yourself. --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:28, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

In the box at the top of the page: "The reference desk does not answer requests for opinions or predictions about future events. Do not start a debate; please seek an internet forum instead." However, if you wish to learn more about the issues raised in your (badly worded, IMO) statement/question, see English, international language, monolingualism, multilingualism, English as a Foreign or Second Language, language education, second language acquisition, International English. Oh, and also (to avoid making really offensive comparisons in the future) you might want to look at History of rape. BrainyBabe (talk) 07:29, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Plenty of native English speakers learn foreign languages. Perhaps not to the extent that other people learn English, but it's really up to the individual. Also, a native English speaker speaking very quickly with a strong accent using lots of idioms and local dialect terms will be pretty incomprehensible to the average person that knows English as a second language. --Tango (talk) 12:20, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

To be fair, this is true for most languages. Heck, english is my first language and I have difficulty understanding people with a thick Cajun or Cockney accent.Livewireo (talk) 21:31, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Of course, I'd say it's true for pretty much all languages, but that doesn't really make any difference. --Tango (talk) 15:40, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

It should also be pointed out that English native speakers are free to learn any further language if they want to. Of course, many English, French or Spanish speaker (as the legend go) see no advantage to learn foreign languages since many foreigners know their language. --Mr.K. (talk) 15:41, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I want to print the OP and hang on the wall, because it is so original! So everybody can read and laugh (no offense)... And since it is in English, no need of translation! --pma (talk) 21:28, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

The question brings to mind a piece of colloquial English possibly not understandable to those for whom English as a second language, or even those speaking a non-UK variety of English. The word is bollocks. DJ Clayworth (talk) 22:04, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

A perfectly understandable term to us Americans who are fans of One Foot in the Grave. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 23:15, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Question about Zoroastrianism?

Nietzsche's philosophical writing was titled "Thus Spake Zarathustra". I am curious to what is the relationship between that book and Zoroastrianism (If there is any at all).  Marlith (Talk)  00:33, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

There's a whole paragraph on that in the Zoroaster article. Search in it for Nietzsch. --Tagishsimon (talk) 02:02, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

a method of drawing

you draw something on paper which looks meaningless. but when its reflection is viewed on a curved surface a meaningful image appears. what is it called? where can one get more information on it? 59.92.82.172 (talk) 07:38, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

See "Anamorphosis". --Milkbreath (talk) 12:23, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Creationists' beliefs

Do creationists believe in Pangaea? Kittybrewster ☎ 12:04, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Hardly compatible with the whole 4000 year old world beliefs... — CHANDLER^#10 — 12:25, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Facts shmacts. Conservapedia's fascinating page on pangea puts its breakup at the time of the Great Flood, which in turn it puts at 5000 years ago. Unfortunately the normally super-duper-reliable Conservapedia has wickedly censored the real story of how Kangaroos got to Australia (or "America 2" as it's now called) - they used to have the truth about Kangaroos, where they get to australia on mats of vegetation rather than this stuff about them walking there before Pangea broke up (a week past Tuesday, I believe). What nonsense - animals walking?! Pah! Mimetic Polyalloy (talk) 14:29, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Sort of.--droptone (talk) 12:38, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Keep in mind that there are a lot of very different forms of Creationism which have a real spectrum of how old they think the Earth is, etc. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 14:10, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, although I expect the OP is talking about Young-Earth Creationism, otherwise it's a rather trivial question. --Tango (talk) 14:50, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing this article in conservapedia out. I thought the talk page was even more fascinating. Dmcq (talk) 21:32, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I find it more than a little ironic that they link to Wikipedia for their image. AnyPerson (talk) 00:02, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Bangladesh Upazila elections

Where can I find the results of Bangladesh's 3rd Upazila elections? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.204.74.100 (talk) 16:41, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Lebanese Election 2005

Is there a website where it shows the candidates for each party representing each seat of the Lebanese National Assembly? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.204.74.100 (talk) 16:43, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Some of the links in this article of ours might help: Lebanese general election, 2005. --Tango (talk) 17:10, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Find yourself literature

I would like to find some 'find yourself' novel in the style of Fightclub or Into the wild but with a higher literary level, possibly classical works.--Mr.K. (talk) 17:23, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

The genre of Bildungsroman is something along the lines of what you're looking for. And many venerable novels have subplots about 'finding oneself', for instance the arc of Levin in Anna Karenina. Lantzy ^talk 18:17, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Walden by Henry David Thoreau might be something to look at. Livewireo (talk) 21:41, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

How to tell when censorship is fascist

hi i wud like 2 no how to tell when cencorship is fashist pleas lookin for an objective criteria not "use ur judgement thanx —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.124.81.87 (talk) 17:57, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Do you know what fascism is? We have an article on it. Often people use it generically to mean "anything I disagree with", but it's meant to have a more specific meaning than that. Friday (talk) 18:01, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

some1 removed this question what criteria cud I use 2 decide if doing this to my question was fascism? i looked at the article u linked and searched for crit and got the criterion of German national socialism was biological determination. The basis of Nazism was a racism in its most extreme sense but i am not asking about nazi ism but about fascism. there is no section in that article on criteria or ways 2 decide if something is fascism thanx

If you have something to say about the ref desk, use Wikipedia talk:Reference desk. You give the appearance of someone here to act silly, rather than someone seeking real answers to real questions, so this may explain the removal. If you read the article, you'll see that someone editing content on some website doesn't have much to do with fascism. Now do you have any questions actually suited to a reference desk? Friday (talk) 18:13, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

sorry about my vocab what word shud i use instead of fascism pleas thanx —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.124.81.87 (talk) 18:14, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

ps it is a real question and i am looking for a guideline or criteria i can use - it is not about wikipedia in specific —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.124.81.87 (talk) 18:15, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

As there is little agreement as to what actually constitutes fascism, you are unlikely to get a defintive answer. There is no agreed upon checklist. To start, fascism is a form of authoritarian government. The removal of your question was not as a consequence of a goverment requirement, even if only in the sense of the government of Wikipedia, such as it exists. Thus, the removal was not, in my opinion, "fascist". You will have to spend some time learning about fascism in its many forms and then, in the final analysis, use your own judgement. ៛ Bielle (talk) 18:23, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

thanx but i alrady said the word fascism is not the word im looking 4. do u know the right word? i will change the title with the right word when somebody tells me pleas thanx! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.124.81.87 (talk) 18:37, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Quick bit of advice - people will be more willing to help you if you make an effort to write correctly. This isn't a text message, there is plenty of room to write complete words in well-formed sentences. Writing like you do comes across as disrespectful. --Tango (talk) 18:27, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

please forgive me owing to that I did not mean no disrespect

We can't help you find a word to describe a concept when you haven't told us what the concept is. What is it, exactly, that you want to know about censorship? Is your question about who enacts the censorship? Governments, religions, societies, individuals and whole industries are groups that permit, require or encourage various kinds of censorship. Is your question about the obligations or rights to enforce censorship? These may be matters of law, or of continuing membership in a formal or informal community (like a family or club or church) for example. Perhaps you are just looking to know when censorship is appropriate to its context. For example, it may be perfectly appropriate to keep specific types of images out of the areas where children might view them, and be perfectly inappropriate to keep adults from seeing them. If you are specific as to what you want to know, we might be able to help you, but not otherwise. ៛ Bielle (talk) 19:11, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

what I mean is very simple: when some one on a forum says removing their post is "fascism" what should they say instead of fascism, since its not the right word? I mean from their point of view. How should they express themselves...you know what they MEAN, but the word fascism isn't the right one to use. How would a more eloquent person who knows the right word express that factual opinion? Thanks. (I spell-checked this reply in Word). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.124.81.87 (talk) 19:23, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

It's probably best to avoid any such hyperbole, just say it's "unfair" or "unjustified" or whatever is appropriate. There is no need to have technical terms for everything, just describe it using everyday language. --Tango (talk) 19:28, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

ok how do I tell if censorship is unjustified and unfair? For example this question was removed two times by someone, so if I don't put it back you don't even see it. What criteria could I use to see if this is justified? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.124.81.87 (talk) 19:31, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

It's very subjective - it's a matter of opinion. Do you think the reason given was a good one? Was any reason given? However, be careful calling it "censorship" - censorship is stopping some form of expression is order to stop people knowing the information contained. Removing a question is not necessarily censorship, the question may just have been inappropriate for that forum. --Tango (talk) 19:38, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

In order to determine whether something is "fair" or not, you need to have an idea of what the rules are. If your posts have been removed because they breach Wikipedia's rules in some way, then this is not "fascism", nor is it "unfair": you need to play by the rules. If you don't like the rules, then agitate to change them - but the RefDesk is not the place for that. --TammyMoet (talk) 19:41, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

The reason given for removing this question (the thread you are reading now!) twice was that it is "silly". Do you think this thread breaches Wikipedia's rules in any way? Do you think that it is fair? Read the edit history: it says it is removing my question because it is "silly". Is this justified? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.124.81.87 (talk) 21:17, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

When censorship becomes unfair is when the use of the information, in providing another view or representing a certain section of a population (or website readership, for example) or in the public interest (eg. allegations of corruption) are not outweighed by legitimate reasons for censorship- national security (or website integrity), the avoidance of legislation or where mater published breaks the rules. In countries, it would have to break the law; but by agreement some censorship laws are not accepted by the international community - any actions taken using them are deemed inappropriate. In most cases, possible censorship is not enforced, so a precedent is very rarely an excuse to publish libellous or otherwise inappropriate material. So, in order to judge whether removal is unfair, simply balance the use of the material against its possible damage. - Jarry1250 ^{(t, c)} 20:04, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

As this appears to have turned into (or may have been geared to change to this all along) a question about censorship on the Ref desk, the OP's disclaimer notwithstanding, I think that, if it belongs anywhere, it belongs on the Ref Desk's Talk Page. ៛ Bielle (talk) 21:25, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I didn't expect anyone to remove this question, so it wasn't geared to address this aspect at all. the question is not about the reference desk.

Besides, on a forum, there's no such thing as unfair removal. The moderators and administrators are in charge; when you registered with the forum you agreed to be under that rule. If you don't like it, leave. Forums are not a democracy. --Alinnisawest,^{Dalek Empress} (extermination requests here) 21:29, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Of course there's just a think as unfair removal. Just because it isn't a democracy doesn't mean there isn't a concept of fairness. If people are treated differently for no good reason, that's unfair, regardless of who is in charge. Unfairness may be acceptable in certain circumstances, but it's still unfair. --Tango (talk) 15:30, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Another try at the question

Let me take a shot at asking what I think you meant to ask: "How can one tell when censorship is used to oppress people and hide information from them, rather than protect them ?". Is this what you wanted to ask ? StuRat (talk) 21:41, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I'd say if the rules are the poster should be notified but the question is just removed (censored) without notifying the poster with reasons, that's unfair/high-handed and that's like "facism" or abuse of authority. If the rules say they can take an inappropriate question away anytime for set reasons, that's not censorship, that's the rules. Julia Rossi (talk) 22:01, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

By the way, good for you to use the spell checker – a good move. Julia Rossi (talk) 22:03, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

"Fascism" (couldn't resist). --Milkbreath (talk) 00:18, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps "facism" is an even better term, as fascist leaders always have their faces plastered all over the place. :-) StuRat (talk) 08:51, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Hahaha – well-spotted. Do not only torture the little typo, my grammar's crook too. :)) Julia Rossi (talk) 08:57, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Do not torture only the little typo... BrainyBabe (talk) 20:49, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, Madam Lash. ;) Julia Rossi (talk) 22:01, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Defining "Universal Health Care" for the U.S.

Hi all,

I'm planning on making a bet on whether or not the US government will be able to implement some kind of "universal health care" within the next X years. However, I'm getting hung up of the wording of the definiton of "universal health care." There seem to be so many different way it can be implemented -- single-payer health insurance, tax-cuts for health insurance, mandates, no health insurance but just free health care (like England), etc. etc. etc...

How would you define a metric by which you could say confidently "yes" or "no" as to whether universal health care has been implemented in the US? Total number of uninsured? That wouldn't work because we could eliminate the need for insurance. Total access to health care? How would that be measured?

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Thanks,

Sam —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.138.152.238 (talk) 22:20, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Have you read the article at Universal health care, especially the section on the United States and its links? AnyPerson (talk) 00:05, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, and it didn't provide any way to come up with an easily judgable definition. — Sam 146.115.120.108 (talk) 17:53, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

You might try choosing 5 example situations. If all of the people in the 5 cases obtain complete health care for a total out-of-pocket charge to them of under $50 each (that is, the charge is a result of their health care; taxes are not factored into the evaluation) then the nation is considered to have universal health care. The five cases might be something like (a) a poor illegal immigrant who suffers a heart attack and needs a quadruple bypass; (b) a poor illegal immigrant who has a bad cold; (c) a wealthy railroad baron who needs a heart-lung transplant; (d) a wealthy railroad baron who has a bad cold; (e) a tourist temporarily visiting the country who gets into a car accident and needs their hand re-attached. You could add (or explicitly exclude) controversial stuff like gender reassignment surgery and snake-oil supplements if you want. Tempshill (talk) 04:08, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

drew memorial church,grosvenor road,belfast

this church formerly stood stood at middle of grosvenor rd,belfast.ibelieve the church was physically relocated at the end of the nineteen eighties-early nineties.i beleive the church was removed brick by brick and relocated somewhere in the united states.can anyone tell me if this is so,and the present whereabouts of the church —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.120.116.185 (talk) 22:23, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I couldn't find anything about it being relocated, but this page has a section on the church's history that includes the names of some people you could probably look up and contact for more information. -Elmer Clark (talk) 23:41, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

It is incorrect that the church was removed brick by brick to the US. The church was no longer used by the Anglican community, it fell into disrepair and was demolished around 2000. Here is a photo of it in 1999.

What's this short story? (or) Who wrote this short story?

I thought the title was:

 The Town That Got Stuck On Sunday

I'm trying to track down a short story a read a long time ago about a town that got stuck on a particular day of the week. It's not a "Groundhog Day" kind of story, because the days do keep changing. It's just that the townsfolk believe that the "day of the week" isn't changing. Consequently, their businesses stay closed, and their farms don't get tended. I think neighboring towns help out, since their days of the week are changing.

Since you can't answer, "When did I read this?", I'm hoping someone will be able to tell me "Where."

Victorcamp (talk) 23:03, 6 February 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.215.193.220 (talk) 22:34, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

It wouldn't have been set in Greece by any chance, would it? -- JackofOz (talk) 23:01, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I can't remember; it was too long ago.Victorcamp (talk) 23:04, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Twilight Zone?--Wetman (talk) 00:12, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

No, I picture it as a story in a book, with a drawing of a small town with steeples. ).Victorcamp (talk) 00:17, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

The more I think about it, the more it seems like something I might have read in a grade school or freshman Social Studies textbook. I'm sure I wouldn't have thought of it at the time, but it sounds like a lesson in critical thinking, that is, "think for yourself." Now, it's even ringing bells about the current economic situation; to wit, if everyone believes it, it's "true" (vis-à-vis confidence).Victorcamp (talk) 00:17, 7 February 2009 (UTC) For whatever reason, it's in my mind today, and I'd like to read it again.Victorcamp (talk) 00:28, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I remember this short story from an English textbook in ninth grade in the US, in about 1965. Set in England, a blue-collar worker wakes up and "realizes" the day after Sunday that it is Sunday: it just feels like Sunday. He convinces the town and this idea spreads throughout the country. The whole country stays on holiday until the Prime Minister states (seven days later) that it is finally Monday, and everybody agrees. It turns out that the government had not intervened during the week because there was a diplomatic crisis and they needed a week of holidays to allow two fast naval cruisers to reach the crisis spot -- this would put the time of the story in the early twentieth century. -Arch dude (talk) 02:17, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

That's a possibility; certainly the ninth grade textbook sounds about right, and 1965 does put me in high school. However, my recollection is of a boy whose job it was to ring the town bells on Sunday. When he woke up the day after, he realized it was still Sunday, so he rang the bells again. When others asked, he explained, and they too said, yes, you're right, it's still Sunday. I think this went on for much more than a week. I don't remember anything about a prime minister or a crisis. The concept, however, seems too similar to be coincidence. Perhaps a standard textbook story, updated periodically?--Victorcamp (talk) 12:16, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

The story is "Never Come Monday," by Eric Knight, originally printed in the March 1938 issue of Esquire. The plot is essentially as summarized by Arch dude and Victorcamp, except for the date, of course, and that the knocker-upper was Sam Small. John M Baker (talk) 15:28, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Correction: Sam Small was in the story, but was not the knocker-up. John M Baker (talk) 03:38, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

The story can be read here: http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks08/0800581h.html#ch54 89.243.214.67 (talk) 23:32, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

February 7

Youth and Young Manhood

Hello. I need a few thousand words on the nature of youth, boyhood, casual rebellion, indolent pleasures, and the like. It will be an element in a picture. I'm thinking of classic works of literature, but it's late and I can't think of anything relevant. Does anyone have any suggestions? When I say youth I mean early twenties, and from any type of literature you like. It will need to be on the net somewhere so I can copy and paste it. Any quotation will do, step right up.

Thanks 80.229.160.127 (talk) 01:44, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

"Early twenties"? a protracted adolescence down at your end, indeed. You need to look into the index to Bartlett's Familiar Quotations, espcially under "callow" and "indolent". --Wetman (talk) 08:55, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Not knowing the culture and historical period to which your text refers, let me point out that "youth" is rather a stretch to refer to:

• "boyhood" (= childhood, ends at about 12 but may include teenage - the age in which you'd say this is a "boy"),
• adolescence ("teenage," till the age of majority, ca. 18-20) AND
• "early twenties."

For example, the quality or practice of indolence rather than industry in a schoolage boy is quite another thing than someone whose age peers are already expected to be out and earning their living. I agree with Wetman in the prolonged adolescence of a society in which post-high school studies are common and extend into one's early or mid-20s might be to the point. Also your request is unclear: you seek "a few thousand words" in one quotation, or several together? -- Deborahjay (talk) 12:05, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I am thinking probably of bildungsroman literature, and seeking specifically prose where the author meditates of the nature of youth itself. Several quotations to make up the length will be fine. Let's say something pertinent to ages 15-25, male for preference. 80.229.160.127 (talk) 19:21, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

You may want to poke your nose into The Magic Mountain by Thomas Mann, which is both a Bildungsroman and a satire of this genre. On a completely different level you could read the great "Schelmenroman", The Tin Drum. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 22:15, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Not sure if The Beautiful Boy might be of any interest. Some of the links or articles may lead somewhere.91.111.67.60 (talk) 23:04, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

There are shedloads of examples in The Picture of Dorian Gray. Eg: "But we never get back our youth. The pulse of joy that beats in us at twenty becomes sluggish. Our limbs fail, our senses rot. We degenerate into hideous puppets, haunted by the memory of the passions of which we were too much afraid, and the exquisite temptations that we had not the courage to yield to. Youth! Youth! There is absolutely nothing in the world but youth!" The whole thing is online at [16]. Karenjc 00:18, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Maksim Gorky wrote a three volume autobiography: Childhood, My Apprenticeship, My Universities. About his tough impoversihed upbringing in Russia before the Revolution. I enjoyed reading Childhood, I intend to read the others. I expect the title "My Universities" is probably ironic. Probably all available online somewhere if you search. 89.243.214.67 (talk) 23:43, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Law : Appellant's Costs

A Judgment delivered by the Law Lords of the Privy Council in London ends as follows :- " In all the circumstances, their Lordships consider that this appeal should be allowed, and the respondent should pay the appellant's costs".

This was the operative part of a verdict in an appeal for severance allowance at punitive rate from appellant living in a British Commonwealth country. No figure was quoted at all in Judgment.

In the beginning of the Judgment the Law Lords quoted the principal sum mentioned in the initial plaint that was lodged in court immediately after the dismissal. The initial appeal document contained all relevant detailed figures.

I shall like to have expert explanations regarding the verdict and the difference between " appellant's costs" and "costs".

Pravesham (talk) 13:35, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

This is about the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. The appellant's costs are simply the costs of the appellant. The costs would need to be assessed - see Costs (English law). Xn4 (talk) 14:07, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Is it just me, or does it seem a little unfair for the respondent to pay the appellant's costs? There wouldn't be any costs if the judge/jury hadn't got it wrong in the first place - they should pay the costs... --Tango (talk) 15:34, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

There was a piece in the Wall Street Journal's opinion pages about this in the last few months. In America each side is responsible for its own legal costs. In Britain, IIRC, the loser pays the winner's costs. The WSJ of course endorsed this scheme in the interest of stopping frivolous lawsuits against corporations. (It would also stop nearly all lawsuits against corporations, frivolous or not, but that's not their concern.) Tempshill (talk) 03:59, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm familiar with that distinction and I support the British system for the original trial. My question was about the cost of appeal - if an appeal is successful that means the original court got it wrong, why should the person filing the suit have to pay extra because of that? --Tango (talk) 23:50, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

This is Bissonauth v Sugar Fund Insurance Bond [2007] UKPC 17. In the first instance (i.e. the first time the case was heard), we had Mr. Bissonauth - who was at this point known as 'the claimant' - taking his employer, Sugar Fund Insurance Bond - who was 'the respondent' - to what was basically an employment tribunal, saying that it was unlawful for them to sack him, or at least in the way they did (to put it simply). Mr. Bissonauth lost the case in this first instance. He then appealed to the Mauritius Supreme Court. At this point Mr. Bissonauth was known as 'the appellant' and Sugar Fund Insurance Bond was 'the respondent'. At the Supreme Court their honours ruled in favour of one of Mr. Bissonauth's claims but not others. Mr. Bissonauth appealed to the Privy Council of the United Kingdom on one particular point. At this point Mr. Bissonauth was still 'the appellant' and Sugar Fund Insurance Bond was still 'the respondent', as Mr. Bissonauth was appealing aganst the Supreme Court decision. The Privy Council ruled in Mr. Bissonauth's favour on this particular point. Because this is a civil case there is no jury at any point (there are only a few exceptions to this rule). The appeals (as appeals most usually are) were first about how the first instance court (in this case essentially an employment tribunal before a magistrate) and then the appeal court (in this case the Mauritian Supreme Court before a Judge and Puisne Judge) interpreted the relevant law and applied it. The reason that the Privy Council ordered Sugar Fund Insurance Bond to pay Mr. Bissonauth's costs is because, in effect, he had had to pay many thousands of rupees in legal costs to go all the way through the court system until the UK Privy Council finally came up with the 'right' decision and if Sugar Fund Insurance Bond has acted according to the relevant employment law in the first place he would not have needed to spend all that money. Hope this helps. --Joe^Talk_Work 01:47, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Case on Partition

May I launch a case agniast partition of any nation?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.95.154.33 (talk) 16:26, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

What do mean by "partition"? --Tango (talk) 17:55, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Partition was the name of the process of creating Pakistan and India out of British colonial India, and UNGA 181 is known as the partition plan resolution... AnonMoos (talk) 22:21, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

That's the only type of partition I could think of, as well, but the question doesn't seem make sense. Why would you want to make a case against the partition of nations where nobody has proposed partition? Unless the OP means a general case, which I guess makes most sense. Either way, this doesn't seem to be appropriate for the ref desk - we're not a debating society. --Tango (talk) 22:25, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

A working UNGA 181 link is here. --Dr Dima (talk) 03:24, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

In answer to the OP's question, you could only "launch a case" in the nation's own courts if it had a court with the jurisdiction to consider your case and if you had the necessary standing for it to hear you. In some countries, there is a Constitution which is guaranteed by a Supreme Court or by a Constitutional Court, and if a country's government were to decide to partition the country in a way which were made unlawful by the Constitution, then you might be able to begin proceedings to challenge the decision, but in such an event the government would probably by then have taken some action to change the country's Constitution. As a matter of international law, it would be quite different. There isn't an international court which guarantees the territorial integrity of "nations". Indeed, the definition of what is a "nation" has always been problematical. In the case of the Partition of India, see Two Nation Theory. Xn4 (talk) 22:27, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Bangladeshi Islamic Magazines

Is there any magazines in Bangladesh that talks about Islam? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.54.36 (talk) 16:28, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Bangladesh Islamic Centre ([17]) has a bunch of links and sources. --Omidinist (talk) 17:00, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Place de la Concorde obelisk

I'm interested in the obelisk of the Place de la Concorde in Paris. It originally stood in front of the Luxor temple in Egypt and I would like to know when it was erected. Now, I know what you're going to tell me, that it was built by Ramses II. Okay, but the guy reigned between 1279 and 1213 BC-- one of the longest reigns in history. Does someone know a more precise date ? I've skimmed through the books at my library and didn't find an answer, so I thought several heads are better than one. Have a nice day, Rosenknospe (talk) 18:05, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

A-ha ! Looks like I've found the question you can't answer ! :p Rosenknospe (talk) 13:24, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Ah. Didn't see that gauntlet lying there. Yup, you got me. I did poke around in the recent journals for an update on the dating of the obelisk, but no luck. I'm assuming you checked the existing literature thoroughly enough. I would imagine that the best chance we have of getting a firm date on something like that would be if the Egyptians had actually carved a date on it, but if they had we'd have known a long time ago. I found it interesting that its sister obelisk (a good book title, that, Sister Obelisk) is not the same size, which suggests that they were not designed as a set, that they are not the same age, and that one or both of them were moved to the temple from their original sites, possibly recarved. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a day, month, and year, or even a year. --Milkbreath (talk) 15:34, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

WWII Aerial photos

Are aerial recconaissance photographs taken of Britain by the Luftwaffe during World War II, published and unpublished, still subject to copyright? If so who would be likely to own such copyright?

Thanks in advance. 62.6.252.139 (talk) 21:05, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

The copyright situation of Nazi state generated stuff is complicated, if I recall... they are inherited by the successor states, but are rarely claimed... this discussion pertains to exactly this sort of thing. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 21:17, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, I hthought it might be complex - thanks for the link - it kind of helps.

On a similar theme, does anyone know the copyright status of photos taken by the Allied forces (ie offical photos, not personal snaphots)? Does this depend on whether they have already been published? Thanks once again. 94.196.76.194 (talk) 11:01, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Does Poland have an 'official' national bird?

Does Poland have an 'official' national bird? If so, is it the White Eagle like the one on the Coat of arms of Poland or is it the White Stork? Does anyone have a reliable source for this? OlEnglish (talk) 23:28, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I already answered this question at Talk:Coat of arms of Poland#Does Poland have a national bird?, so I'll just copy-paste here:

There is no particular species of bird that is generally recognized, let alone legally indicated, as a national bird. A concept of national bird, animal, flower, etc. doesn't really exist in Poland. The White Eagle is a heraldic symbol which is a different thing than a national bird.

I just looked at List of national birds and saw that it listed the white-tailed eagle as Poland's national bird. I promptly deleted this bit as nonsense.

As for sources, it might be difficult to find sources about something that doesn't exist. — Kpalion^(talk) 11:11, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I've always found the 'state flower', 'state bird' and so on, appointed by various US states a rather quaint and amusing concept. I don't recall having come across the idea in Europe. --ColinFine (talk) 23:21, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I've never come across it either, nor do I have any idea what it is meant to mean. --Tango (talk) 23:48, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Some of them have a "state soil", fertile ground for jokes I should think. DuncanHill (talk) 07:32, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

<groan> :) OlEnglish (talk) 02:48, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

arab city neighbourhood

I notice that Beirut and Baghdad have nieghbourhoods that consist either one or two religious groups, such as one nieghbourhood in Beirut or Baghdad consist of Sunni Muslims only, one nieghbourhood in Beirut or Baghdad consist of Shi'a Muslims only, one nieghbourhood in Beirut or Baghdad consist of Christians, one nieghbourhood in Beirut or Baghdad consist of Sunni Muslims and Christians together and such. Are Beirut and Baghdad the only Arab cities that have such neighbourhoods consisting of only one or more religious groups? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.14.117.167 (talk) 23:41, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

The old city of Jerusalem is traditionally divided into the Jewish quarter, the Christian quarter, the Muslim quarter, and the Armenian quarter. Having different districts for different non-Muslim groups was traditionally quite common, but I'm not sure how common residential segregation for different groups within Islam was until the 20th century... AnonMoos (talk) 01:15, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

It is indeed quite common for large Middle Eastern cities to have been divided into ethnic or religious quarters. A few other famous examples are Cairo, which has a Coptic neighbourhood; Damascus with a Christian quarter; Istanbul, which has traditional Greek, Armenian and Albanian neighbourhoods; and Fes which has a Jewish quarter. However, most of these historical neighbourhoods had lost their specificity beginning in the early 20th century. It is traumatic events, such as the Lebanese Civil War and the occupation of Iraq which have rekindled segregation. That is most dramatic in Baghdad, in which neighbourhood that were mixed before 2003 have now been almost entirely segregated in the past five years, as a result of ethnic cleansing. --Xuxl (talk) 15:31, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

February 8

Diocesan structure of Roman Britain

I have seen two different versions of the borders and these images correspond to only one:

The other one has:

• Londinium as capital of Maxima Caesariensis (Solent to Wash); 2 colonies
• Lindum as capital of Flavia Caesariensis (Wash to Humber); 1 colony
• Corinium as capital of Britannia Prima (Solent to Dee); 2 colonies
• Eburacum as capital of Britannia Secunda (Humber to Dee); 1 colony

My source is Penguin and it's very comprehensive in details. I think Wikipedia's maps are wrong, except that they are probably accurate about the meaning of the name "Valentia", as that for Roman Caledonia. What do you Wikipedians have as an answer for that? I'm dead serious. 68.231.164.27 (talk) 00:10, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I had nothing to do with this map but if you think there are errors then please, fix the errors in the map. Everything on here has been created by volunteers and there are many, many errors. I agree that on a map it's much harder to tell what sources there might have been. Tempshill (talk) 03:53, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, don't go jumping in and changing the map just yet. The OP has not indicated the date of his source in Penguin. Roman Britain existed for some 4 centuries, and the administrative organization was probably reordered several times during that time period. It was not uncommon for one emperor or another to redraw the borders of the various divisions of the Empire. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 05:21, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, the University of Texas source is probably that used for the Wikipedia version, as they are virtually identical in their features above. The Penguin Illustrated History of Britain and Ireland edition I have was last published in 2004. I also have the Atlas of Classical History by Richard J.A.Talbert, last published in 2003 and it has the same layout for the dioceses as Penguin.

Neither one mentions Valentia as a late diocese, but I'm not challenging that assertion by the Texas source (but supporting it, even though not shown in my sources), as a fifth diocese can be reasonably surmised in what are denoted the "client British tribes" north of Hadrian's Wall, in addition to the etymology of the name, as being toponymy and/or referencing a conflation with the imperial brothers Valentinian and Valens. I appreciate the sentiment that the borders likely shifted (obviously, in the emergence of more than the original Britannia Superior/Inferior division); the Atlas of Classical History states that the dioceses are uncertain, with speculation and a paucity of details. My concern, is whether the Wikipedia information (which doesn't fit the images used on Wikipedia) and that in my sources as well, is right or not. The thing is, the images above are messy in comparison to my sources and that bothers me. My sources are exacting and each diocese has not only capitals, but coloniae, legionary fortresses, villas, roads, walls, mines, early churches etc. I'm thinking that the old source used on Wikipedia is inaccurate, because it is not only unclear, but incongruous to usual convention about differences (with the details being a marker) between regions of England and Wales. The particular issue, is whether or not York was subordinate to Cirencester and Lincoln to London, or as the images above show (being an old source and not explaining details), if York was subordinate to Lincoln and Cirencester to London. I want to know if indeed, the North of England (e.g. Cumbria, like Cymru/Wales) was either Caesariensis or Britannia. It is interesting to see the North as some kind of junior polity to Wales and Cornwall (both being highlands), while the Midlands and Southeast (both lowlands) seem to go along well together, but not really the Southeast with Wales--it seems suspect that Cornwall would be part of the Southeast and not part of Wales in this context (cf. Wales and West Wales), lumping the Midlands and North together (although the Midlands have little, if any Brythonic identity). It seems a modern position that East Anglia and the Midlands should be together, but the Saxon Shore, in the Penguin version, is entirely contained within Maxima Caesariensis, from the Solent to the Wash.

The future ethnic toponymy of the Danelaw in what was once Flavia Caesariensis (in the Lincoln parameters set by Penguin), would seem to tie in this bloc of Caesariensis dioceses into the bedrock of both Saxon and Dane (e.g. Germania) migrations. Plus, the Parisi of the North and Belgae of the Southwest, would further give the idea that both of the Britannias (also in the Penguin version) were more tied to Gaul. Tacitus (commenting on the Roman conquest, preceding German invasions) describes the west of Britain to be closer to Spaniards and the east of Britain to Gauls, which to me, is like the difference between the Britannia (Severn heavy) dioceses of the highland North and West, with the Caesariensis (Thames heavy) dioceses of the lowland South and East. Geoffrey of Monmouth, clearly reflecting popular tradition, stated that the westerners were descended from Corineus and the easterners from Brutus. You can see how the locations of the peoples shifted westwards. It would mean the Britons, with Gallic connections (see Brittany, ex-Armorica) were first in London, then became the object of the Welsh identity, whereas Welsh territory was originally Cornish, explained away by Geoffrey as a dynastic issue. The Saxons and Danes would move into Caesariensis, Roman heartland of the island, nevertheless, still called Britannia, even though the Britons and imported Gallic tribes apparently became obscure as a result of the combined Roman and German (premonition of Holy Roman Empire) establishment. Connections to the German world probably were reinforced by the Moorish takeover of Hispania, pushing the focus of the people in the other direction, as the Germans took over Rome; you can even see the Anglo-French relationship having a seed in the Parisi/Belgae connections. The North and West would hold onto Romanisms much longer in isolation, whereas the South and East would be more vulnerable to Dark Ages invasions, due to the Strait of Dover. Consider the initial Roman advance from the South and East, working their way inland to the North and West, ascending the elevation of the British landscape in the process and being met with more resistance likewise, from the people. online map illustrating this Sorry, but the whole view of British history hinges on these kinds of details. For instance, the Joseph of Arimathea legend, with the Holy Grail and/or Jesus in Glastonbury, relies upon the accepted Spanish-Cornish tin trade (supported by statements by Tacitus in Agricola and British Isles oral tradition/pre-Christian mythology). The legend serves to explain, for me, the evidence for Christian activity in Cirencester, which, unlike London, Lincoln and York, is "missing a bishop" (never seen one listed) for its diocesan organisation. So, the legend has a kind of truth behind it. A diocese should have a bishop and Glastonbury was probably not it, but Cirencester had neighbouring coloniae in Lydney and Glevum, in addition to being the capital of Wales and Cornwall. The other diocesan capitals have not only the bishop, but the coloniae.

You know, these reasoned positions are apologetics for things already promoted on Wikipedia by their mere mention, but if I showed these conclusive, cookie-cutter presentations of the issue, I'd be pressed for "sources", that are already mentioned at Wikipedia. I'm afraid I can't edit Wikipedia in conditions like this, where hostility undermines just about everything I might do, even though it isn't out of step with the existing material and any legitimate source used (we're supposed to spell in our own words to avoid plagiarism!). It really bothers me that my attempt to flesh out the details in a more revealing manner, would be rejected as "original research". I'm not out to make a book (I believe in the Wikipedia cause of free information, having done a high school report on the FOIA), because the information is already there; who would be so brazen as to hate on the messenger of clarity, doing volunteer work for faceless people? In response to the caution about "jumping in" to edit the issue; I am so turned off by implacable assholes that I can't conceive of actually putting in the effort to be beat down again and again over something like this. It's come down to edit warring and ganging up on me to get me blocked. They say they'll work with me, whatever that means, but when it comes to it, they do the exact opposite. I've been told to take it to the talk pages and they ignore it, all the while blaming me for what goes down, or pretend to understand me by false platitudes, although I am only trying to help, both myself and other people understand very complex issues, which other people seem to not want to get bogged down with, but it interests me. 68.231.164.27 (talk) 08:31, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I only wanted to know what dates your sources referred to, not the dates of your source. My concern was that the Penguin maps were of a different time than ours were, and so would refer to a different set of diocese than our maps do. The rest of your diatribe seems to indicate that you are having trouble with resolving a dispute on the talk page. If that is the case, there are avenues, such as dispute resolution, which spells out several options. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 13:44, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Diocletian. 68.231.164.27 (talk) 15:08, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

is it true that all the big hollywood name stars (A-list) have fake teeth?

Is it true that all of the women in hollywood who are on the A-list have fake teeth implanted, even in the front?? Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.124.81.87 (talk) 00:14, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I doubt it. They may well have had some form of cosmetic dentistry, but them all having completely fake teeth sounds very unlikely. --Tango (talk) 01:01, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

"... even in the front" strikes me as an odd emphasis. I would think it likely that, if there were any implants at all, the front teeth would be the most likely candidates. They are the most visible and implants are mostly (but not solely) about appearances. ¤ ₳ ₳ BL ₵ ₳ ¤ (talk) 01:51, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I didn't mean "all their teeth" I mean "all of these people" (on at least 1 teeth) -- for their front teeth, even!!

Depends on what you mean by "fake." Does a filling count? Braces as a teenager?

The United States enjoys modern dentistry, and most people avail themselves of such services. So we're not merely speaking of "big Hollywood name stars," but the average American.

Sorry if you come from some country without reputable dentists. B00P (talk) 02:33, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Cosmetic dentistry has nothing to do with reputability. Most countries do not have the same obsession with unnaturally perfect teeth than the US does. --Tango (talk) 23:34, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

As noted cosmetic dentistry is common and relatively cheap in the USA. Dental veneers, for example, run only about $500 a tooth, and you usually only need the front six or so teeth for the effect to be mostly total. ($3000 is not exactly the cheapest thing in the world but it's not far out of line with what one can do; and in some situations dental insurance will pay for it.) I would expect that anyone with money who was making money off of their face would probably end up getting them if their teeth were not already flawless. They are not noticeable compared to normal teeth unless you really know what to look for or they are really poorly done (sometimes you can tell when someone has all of their teeth capped because they are too perfect, fit too tightly, are too white, etc.). --98.217.14.211 (talk) 04:52, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

It's extremely common for actors who have amalgam fillings (in their molars) to have these replaced with white filling material. The presence of obviously modern dental work can be an issue when an actor is appearing in a period piece, where it'd be visible during yelling, screaming, gasping, and dying scenes. It's a partial sop to our suspension of disbelief - the fact that everyone in (say) Girl with a Pearl Earring is beautiful, has skin unblemished by disease, and has teeth that are straight and white and unbroken seems to be something we're willing to overlook - but a big amalgam filling is too much. 87.113.74.22 (talk) 20:18, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Christian-dominant nations as members of Organization of the Islamic Conference?

Why the organization decided to include the Christian-dominant African nations of Benin, Burkina Faso, Mozambique, Cameroon, Cote d'Ivoire, Gabon, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Central African Republic, Russia, Sierra Leone, Togo and Uganda as member, even though thier state religion is Christianity? What is their history of Muslim population? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.129.220 (talk) 00:19, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

The short answer appears to be that the status of the state religion has no bearing on a county's eligibility for membership or other affiliation in the OIC. In fact, I could find no statement on the English OIC web site about what tests a country has to pass in order to become a full member or an observer. As for the history of Muslim participation in each of the named countries, you can go to the article on each of them and look at the Religion section. I have turned the country names in your question into WP internal links for this purpose. Please note that Russia (see below) and Central African Republic are observers only. ¤ ₳ ₳ BL ₵ ₳ ¤ (talk) 01:48, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Russia and Thailand

Since when did Russia and Thailand have Muslim population in order to be part of Organization of the Islamic Conference or you guys made a mistake? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.129.220 (talk) 00:20, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, Islam is the fastest-growing religion in Russia, and may have even become the predominant religion there. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:52, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Thailand certainly has a Muslim population. According to WP's article, Islam is the second largest religion in the country, but when 95% are Buddhist, that doesn't leave much that is Muslim and almost all of them are in three southern provinces. Thailand is not a full member of OIC, but simply has observer status, as does Russia. The article says:

Russia is home to some 15–20 million Muslims. However, surveys say that there are only 7 to 9 million people who adhere to the Islamic faith in Russia. Russia also has an estimated 3 million to 4 million Muslim migrants from the ex-Soviet states. Most Muslims live in the Volga-Ural region, as well as in the North Caucasus, Moscow.

You can take a look at the OIC's web site for more information. ¤ ₳ ₳ BL ₵ ₳ ¤ (talk) 00:54, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the correction, Bielle. I was doubtless going on the case for the old Soviet Union, but many of the Soviet Muslims now belong to Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan and other former Soviet republics. -- JackofOz (talk) 02:41, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

It wasn't meant as a correction, Jack. It may be the fastest growing. First, my input was after an ec, and I can never be bothered rewriting. I either delete or just add another level of indentation :-). Second, I would look at what I added as merely an amplification. I do good "cut-and-paste". ¤₳₳ BL ₵₳¤ (talk) 03:10, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Just to make it clear: there are a lot of ethnic Muslims in what is now the Russian Federation (i.e. not counting the former republics of the USSR that are now independent). Chechnya, Ingushetia, Tatarstan and Dagestan are examples of sub-national entities with large Muslim populations. --Xuxl (talk) 15:40, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Suriname

Why Suriname is a member of OIC, even though the state religion is Hinduism? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.129.220 (talk) 00:21, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Please see the response above to the first section of this multi-part question. ¤ ₳ ₳ BL ₵ ₳ ¤ (talk) 01:48, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Mozambique as Commonwealth Nation member

Since when did the British rule Mozambique? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.129.220 (talk) 00:25, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

They never did; see Mozambique. Regarding Mozambique's status as a member of the Commonwealth of Nations, our entry on the Commonwealth states "There is only one member of the present Commonwealth that has never had any constitutional link to the British Empire or a Commonwealth member; Mozambique, a former Portuguese colony, was admitted in 1995 on the back of the triumphal re-admission of South Africa and Mozambique's first democratic elections, held in 1994. Mozambique's entry was controversial, leading to the Edinburgh Declaration and the current membership guidelines." - Eron^Talk 00:47, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Black History Month vs. Arab Nations

Which Arab nations has black population due to its history of slavery? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.129.220 (talk) 00:32, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

In the middle ages, Iraq had a large African slave population at times (leading to the late 9th century Zanj revolt), and most Arab-ruled areas had some black slaves -- but very little of that presence now survives in the "northern tier" of Arab states (e.g. on the Mediterranean coast and north of the Arabian peninsula). Some countries in the Arabian peninsula have some black populations (slavery was only abolished in Saudi Arabia in 1962), and of course Mauritania and Sudan have recent histories of Black-Arab conflicts... AnonMoos (talk) 01:07, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

How does a safe bill feeder know the money is fake?

What is it focusing on? Why does it occasionally spit out flawless bills, and accept taped misalligned ones? Is there any website about money security features you can recommend that's not top secret?--TinyTonyyy (talk) 01:39, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I think the relevant article is Currency detector, though it lacks details on bills. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 04:48, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Automated currency detection and validation relies largely on security features built into notes which aren't readily apparent to a person. That is, they don't rely on the security features you'd normally use when manually inspecting a note - paper quality, security printing, colour printing, and the watermark. This product says it relies on the magnetic properties of the ink and the paper, the IR response characteristics of the ink, and on the size of the note. Excepting the first those all sound very difficult to fake (try getting ink with special magnetic properties for your HP deskjet) and of course central banks and their security printers don't make the details of their security measures publicly known (for example, the optical currency detector that's built into software like Photoshop is shipped to the vendors as compiled object code). I guess the size check is mostly just to quickly reject foreign notes from a large stack of notes being automatically processed. 87.113.74.22 (talk) 20:10, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions by James Madison?

I've been actually wondering about this for a long time. James Madison, the man who contributed the most to the constitution of the United States, helped write the Kentucky and Virginia resolutions (Doctrines which argued for nullification, state supremacy etc). That makes absolutely no sense to me. I was wondering if anyone could provide a simple answer to why he did this. I'm seriously perplexed over this. How could he be a proponent of States' Rights, while being the principle author of the Constitution?66.229.148.27 (talk) 02:15, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

First, Madison wrote the Virginia Resolution only, not the Kentucky Resolutions.

Second, what Madison was attempting to do was to use the states to protect civil liberties aginst the federal Alien and Sedition Acts. The Constitution was designed to strike a balance between federal and state powers. Powers not granted to the federal government in the Constitution are reserved to the states or the people. Madison (and Jefferson) saw these Acts as a usurpation of powers not granted to the central government. Madison felt that things had gotten out of balance, and was attempting to restore it.

B00P (talk) 02:55, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

The US Constitution (as originally intended) was supposed to create a system of government where certain powers are delegated to the federal governent and all remaining powers delegated to the states or to the people. So when Madison (and others) wrote the US constituion, they specifically stated what the federal government could do. (These are called "enumerated powers".) For example, they have power to coin money, to declare war, to have a federal postal system, etc. Anything and everything not specifically delegated to the federal government was supposed to be reserved to be the rights of the state or of the people. For example, if the US Constitution does not specifically grant the federal government the power to legislate the sale, use, or production of a drug, such as alcohol or marijuana, then the federal government does not have this power. Only a Constitutional Amendment could grant the federal government such a power. As originally intended, the powers of the federal government are few. The powers of the states and of the people are many, if not infinite.

Many people have the false idea impression the federal government is 'higher up in the chain of command' and therefore can do whatever it wants. In reality, the federal government has very little power as far as the original constitution goes. It would be unconstitutional, for example, for the federal government to impose national heath care on everyone. Since control over healthcare is not specified as an enumerated power, the US Constituion does not permit it. Only a Constitutional Amendment would allow this.

The question of whether the United States government actually follows the Constituion is entirely another topic. But the answer is no (at least in terms of its powers). Much of what the federal government does is unconstituional. There is no constitutional basis wiretaps without a search warrant. (In reality, the US Constitution says the exact opposite.) There is no consitutional basis for Social Security or welfare because these are not specifically enumerated in the US Constitution.

But the law is only as good as it is enforced. Per tradition, only the federal government gets to decide what the federal government can do. So, if the federal government decided that they can arrest Americans without charge and without trial, this is OK according to the federal government, because the federal goverment gets to make this decision by tradition.

67.184.14.87 (talk) 06:14, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks guys, much obliged =]66.229.148.27 (talk) 06:36, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

It's also interesting to note that for Madison, the idea of state rights was a complete reversal of his earliest thinking about the Constitution. He went to the Philadelphia Convention thinking that the national government should have the power to negate state laws, which of course was the opposite of the position he would take as a Jeffersonian. —Kevin Myers 08:02, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

It seems that James Madison shifted back and forth between federalist and jeffersonian ideals over his life, as our article points out a bit. It is interesting how he worked closely with both Alexander Hamilton and Thomas Jefferson, shifting from favoring a stronger central government to favoring a weaker one several times over. Pfly (talk) 09:04, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Waterboarding

Is the act of waterboarding specifically condemned in the Geneva Convention? 76.114.131.116 (talk) 04:45, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Not "specifically" in that it doesn't mention that it shouldn't happen under the Presidency of someone named "Bush". However if you don't require such specificity, it does condemn torture and waterboarding is torture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.124.81.87 (talk) 04:58, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

(ec) No, but no specific activities are specifically condemned in the Geneva Conventions. They speak of torture and abuse and even once of "biological experiments" but they don't talk about any particular practices (for good reason—you name 10 specific practices, and any creative S.O.B. will come up with an 11th one not named and then use the fact that it is not named as a reason to claim it has been allowed). The question is,is waterboarding physical or mental torture? is it a form of coercion used to secure information from POWs? It is unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment? All of these things are banned by the Geneva Conventions when used against POWs. (And of course the real legal question is, are they POWs? If not, then Geneva Conventions don't apply. Which is why the Bush administration spent a lot of time re-labeling them as "enemy combatants" and specifically not as POWs.) --98.217.14.211 (talk) 04:59, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Ahem Prisoner of war: A prisoner of war (POW, PoW, PW, P/W, WP, or PsW) is a combatant who is held in continuing custody by an enemy power during or immediately after an armed conflict. Double talk! ¤₳₳ BL ₵₳¤ (talk) 06:44, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Just to clarify, the enemy combatant issue was not simply about excluding them from being PoWs which in itself would not have been so controversial. The enemy combatant issue was that they were also excluded from being treated as civilians. If they were civilians, then they would be accorded the normal legal rights of civilians (right to a trial, not to be tortured, etc). The Bush doctrine was that enemy combatants were neither, a status many parties argued did not and was never intended to exist by the Geneva Conventions. Nil Einne (talk) 12:04, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Right. If they are POWs they are covered by Geneva, if they are civilians they are covered by criminal law and its protections against suspects. What's really horrific about the Bush approach to me is not that they wanted to come up with a category that says there is some gray area between combatants and civilians (which is quite obvious on the face of it in many conflicts) but that they would do so because they wanted to argue that the gray area between the two categories had the rights of neither! --98.217.14.211 (talk) 18:27, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

How did street vendors sell apples during the Great Depression without getting fined or arrested?

Did they have licenses? If they did not have licenses, why weren't they fined and/or arrested? It does not seem possible to do the same today without a lot of money to start with. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.21.165.180 (talk) 05:26, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Fined or arrested by whom? Usually, in most places, the cops have better things to do than to check up on liscences of street vendors. Lots of unregulated commerce goes on in broad daylight. Pick up your telephone book, and look up "escort services". I mean, if the authorities let that go on, a poor dude selling apples on a street corner is probably not going to get harrassed very much. They weren't stopped because no one cared much to stop them. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 05:50, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Fruit stands are basically unregulated anyway. I bet you could start selling apples from your front stoop right now and never have a problem. --Sean 14:31, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Your success and longevity as a fruit vendor will likely depend upon local laws and then upon what your neighbours think of your activities. I wouldn't expect to be in business long if my front stoop were in Westmount in Montreal, or Rosedale in Toronto, for example, unless I were 5 years old and my lemonade stand had gone bust. ៛ BL ៛ (talk) 16:06, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Can anyone translate for me?

--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 10:35, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Just a suggestion, but we do have a language desk which is probably more appropriate for translation questions. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 16:49, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Even better, try Wikipedia:Translation. There are lists of available translators, etc. from that portal page. Ideally they'd be translating article text, but I imagine you might find someone friendly enough to help in other circumstances. User:Jwrosenzweig editing as 71.112.32.22 (talk) 07:04, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Ehe

Seine einzige Ehe schloss er am 13. Februar 1711 in Dahme mit Emilie Agnes Reuß zu Schleiz, verwitweter Reichsgräfin von Promnitz zu Pleß auf Sorau und Triebel, der Tochter Graf Heinrichs I. Reuß zu Schleiz aus dessen Ehe mit Anna Elisabeth von Sinzendorf-Rheineck, Tochter des Grafen Rudolf von Sinzendorf-Rheineck. Die Ehe blieb ohne Nachkommen. Friedrichs nunmehriger Stiefsohn Erdmann II. von Promnitz und seine Nichte Anna Maria von Sachsen-Weißenfels hatten bereits 1705 geheiratet.

Have you tried the language section? - Jarry1250 ^{(t, c)} 10:38, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

His only marriage he finished on 13 February 1711 in Dahme with Emilie Agnes Reuß zu Schleiz, widowed Reichsgräfin of Promnitz zu Pleß auf Sorau und Triebel, the daughter of Heinrichs I. Reuß zu Schleiz from his marriage to Anna Elisabeth von Sinzendorf-Rheineck, daughter of of the Graf Rudolf von Sinzendorf-Rheineck . The marriage remained without offspring. Frederick, stepson of Erdmann II of Promnitz and his niece Anna Maria von Sachsen-Weißenfels had already married in 1705.

A bit of a machine translation, I guess, but a start. Graf is commonly Anglicised as Count, Reichsgräfin would be Countess of the Reich/Empire. - Jarry1250 ^{(t, c)} 11:12, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

"Ehe schließen" = to marry / to wed, ie no "finished".

Correct translation: On 13. February 1711 he wed... This was to be his sole marriage.

The last sentence is incorrect and should read: Friedrich von Sachsen-Weißenfels, as a result of this marriage, had acquired a stepson, Erdmann II. von Promnitz, who had already married Friedrich`s niece Anna Maria von Sachsen-Weißenfels in 1705. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 12:03, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, I must say that that makes a lot more sense :) . - Jarry1250 ^{(t, c)} 13:54, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

"Not fit for a particular purpose"

Most GFDL licensed software says that, and that it doesn't guarantee any satisfaction since it doesn't cost anything, but can paid-for software also say that? 94.196.17.81 (talk) 11:50, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure what you're saying but a lot of software EULAs greatly limited the makers liability in the event it doesn't do what you expect and many also exclude their use in specific systems, e.g. life support systems Nil Einne (talk) 11:56, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I am not a lawyer, and we can't give legal advice, but see the article "Implied warranty". --Milkbreath (talk) 13:07, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

That "you can't expect anything if you didn't pay anything" idea is formally the legal doctrine of consideration. Conversely, if someone does charge money then there will generally be consideration, an implied contract, and as Milkbreath notes often some kind of implied warranty. What's important here is (mostly) the exchange of items or actions of value; so people who charge for stuff (even GPLed stuff) are stuck with accepting some kind of responsibility for it. Almost no-one is required to guarantee satisfaction, but in general contract law insists that something offered for sale be "fit for purpose" and accurately described, and no amount of EULA can fix that. To get round that, some software contracts try to claim that you don't own the software (just the disks it came on), but instead it's a perpetual lease. I don't know if that's ever been tested in court, but that seems to be the kind of claim that a court will be disinclined to sustain. The extent to which a software is guaranteed is another matter; clearly lots of companies are happily making plenty of money selling some pretty crummy software, so it seems the threshold is very low. Mimetic Polyalloy (talk) 15:56, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Hinduism

I know Hinduism is more properly called the religions of India. At any rate, is correct to say that the religions of India believe in transmigration and not reincarnation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jsw1228 (talk • contribs) 22:36, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

In is wrong to use the term 'religions of India' to describe Hinduism. Many other religions also have adherents in India. Even if we only count religions originating in India, there are still several. Algebraist 22:43, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I am puzzled why you think it could ever be the case that (something with a specific name) is more properly called (a non-specific description). The purpose of names is to identify things, which a non-name typically does not do so well. --ColinFine (talk) 00:19, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

February 9

United Nations Involvement in a War Between 2 Countries

If a war broke out between Bangladesh and Myanmar, would the United Nations send peace keepers to interfer the war? Would the western countries get involve in this international conflict? 72.136.111.205 (talk) 00:34, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

The UN doesn't send peacekeepers into wars. It sends them in when there's peace to keep (see United Nations#Peacekeeping and security). As for the western powers, it's all speculation, but there's little there of strategic interest to them. Clarityfiend (talk) 01:00, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

However, in the Korean War, the UN took sides in the conflict, and sent direct combat troops... AnonMoos (talk) 02:09, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

No, it encouraged its member nations to send troops. The Korean War isn't listed in the UN's peacekeepers' timeline. Clarityfiend (talk) 04:31, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

That's because it didn't send peacekeepers -- it appointed a UN military command to lead combat troops to directly fight on the UN side against the North Korean / Chinese side. The UN and North Korean flags face each other at Panmunjom... AnonMoos (talk) 10:47, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

By definition, peacekeepers do not interfere in a war. Peacekeeping missions are mostly limited to observing. A mission of peace enforcement, like those under Chapter VII of the United Nations Charter, could involve actually using force to protect civilians and keep combatants apart. Interventions like that done by NATO during the Yugoslav wars were not UN operations. The United Nations Security Council resolutions that authorized war came at weird historical periods for the veto-holding members - the 1950 Korean War intervention passed only because "China" at that time meant "Taiwan" and the Soviet Union was boycotting the security council in protest, while the 1991 Iraq resolution came at the height of US post-Cold War supremacy. - BanyanTree 22:36, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Matylda of Brandenburg

Who is this Matylda of Brandenburg? She was supposed to be a Queen of Poland and that all I known. Who is she? Here are some pictures . --Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 06:15, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

• 
• 
• 

She was the second wife of Henry IV Probus. There's a small article on her at the Polish Wikipedia.[18] --JGGardiner (talk) 09:53, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

There's also a German Wikipedia article Mathilde von Brandenburg which is apparently about a different person. The one from PL was born ca. 1270 as a daughter of Margrave Otto V of Brandenburg. In 1278 she married Duke Henry IV Probus of Wrocław (hence she was a duchess, not a queen). She died sometime between 23 June 1290 and 1 April 1298, and was buried in a Cistersian monastery in Kloster Lehnin.

The one from DE was born ca. 1210 as a daughter of Margrave Albert II of Brandenburg and Mathilde of Lusatia. In 1228 she married a son of William of Winchester, who would later become Duke Otto I of Lüneburg. She died on 10 June 1261 in Lüneburg.

All this info is from the PL and DE Wikipedia articles, not double-checked with other sources. Curiously, both articles say that their subject was related to her husband and needed a papal dispensation to marry him. I wonder if it's a coincidence or if one Mathilde has been confused with another. — Kpalion^(talk) 00:26, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

We now have Matylda of Brandenburg and Mathilde von Brandenburg (with a disambig at Matilda of Brandenburg) created from the above, for a start. Gwinva (talk) 02:50, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Admitting to it

Do any religious or quasi-religious groups exist that build their community and life principles around a myth while openly acknowledging that it is a myth? NeonMerlin 08:33, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

You might be interested in the articles on Reconstructionist Judaism and Humanistic Judaism. Of course some movements like Deism reject a lot of the supernatural components of their own religion. And a lot of mainstream religious groups quietly discard parts of their original mythology also. You won't hear a lot about the Firmament these days for example. --JGGardiner (talk) 09:45, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Also Jediism springs to mind. -- Q Chris (talk) 09:55, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Unitarian Universalism may be a serious religion whose beliefs come closest to that. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 12:55, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

You might also like to see Don Cupitt. DJ Clayworth (talk) 18:13, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Depends on what you mean by myth, that's a word with many meanings and shades of meanings. I think most neopagans don't object to their meaningful religious stories being called myths. But it sounds like you're asking for something more specific and maybe you mean myth in the sense "false story" or "debunked theory". In that case I'd suggest the witch-cult hypothesis, a key element in the formation of the Wicca religion. Today there are serious and devout Wiccans who acknowledge that the witch-cult hypothesis is false. See e.g. this site: [19] Haukur (talk) 13:12, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

History: Hilter/ Jews etc

Sorry about this. My (primary school age) kids saw The Sound of Music yesterday and I got caught on a whole line of questions starting with "was WW2 a just war" into the Holocaust. The one question which I said I would come back on was "why did Hitler want to kill the Jews". So what motivates geoncide? I can deal with the schismatic expediency of a common enemy, aspects of Jewishness etc but on Hitler's feelings I couldn't even get as far as whether he coldly denied Jewish humanity or hotly hated them. Unlike the Burma Railway this isn't a topic with a great deal of personal relevance to our family but I will have to give some sort of answer. --BozMo talk 10:08, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

The point is that nobody knows why did Hitler had such a pathological hate against Jews. There were surely some conspiration theories against Jews, but these are clearly not enough to provoke an obsession that would kill millions of people. I imagine that Hitler had some sort of mental illness, but of course, there is no proof for that. --Mr.K. (talk) 11:56, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

There is some discussion of the origins of Hitler's antisemitism in our Adolf Hitler article, especially in the section on Early adulthood in Vienna and Munich. Consensus seems to be that its origin goes back to somewhere in his teens or early adulthood. Of course, antisemitism was far more widespread and culturally acceptable then than it is now, so it would have been part of his formative environment. Later, Hitler, along with many other German nationalists of his generation, blamed German Jews for Germany's defeat in the First World War - see Judenzählung and "Stab-in-the-back legend". This, of course, leaves open the question of what factors transform casual prejudice and bigotry into pyschopathology and genocide. Gandalf61 (talk) 12:18, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

There's also the idea that Hitler's hatred of the Jews was not singularly his alone; the Nazi party had such as part of its platform from before even Hitler joined it. He certainly deserves the blame for the Holocaust, but there was a sort of systemic antisemitism that allowed it to happen. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 12:53, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

I remember a dialogue in the film Downfall where Hitler says something like "I don't believe in a concept of humanity". There is a quote in Genocide#Stages of genocide and efforts to prevent it by Hassan Kakar, where it says that a perception of sub-humanness is a pre-requisite for genocide to happen. The Nazi Party considered many sections of people as sub-human, not just the Jews. See Lebensunwertes Leben (Life unworthy of life) and Untermensch (sub human). Hitler or the party would not have been outright barbaric, the killings were gradual, starting with some sections like the handicapped, considered as "humane" operations, but later on the distinction of humanity was lost I guess (Lebensunwertes Leben#Development of the concept talks about this). Regarding Hitler, interestingly there was a post a week back, which asked how many people did Hitler actually kill (with his own hands), and the answer was there in fact is no single official witness to any direct killing by him. Jay (talk) 13:44, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

You can't really look at the Nazis' hatred of the jews in isolation, as if that was the only ethnic hatred at play in central & eastern europe at the time. For much of the preceeding century, or more, there was considerable intercommunal strife: between poles and russians and byelorussians and serbs and croats and germans and romanians and jews and moldovans and many more. The jews generally came off worst in these (and mostly not by the germans - germany before the nazis was one of the best places for jews to live). The nazis persecution then murder of the jews is the stand-out hatred of the time, but it's a special vileness born from a general sea of ethnic hatred. If I were explaining this to a child, I'd observe that a lot of Europe was gripped by the idea that people should live with "people like us", and not with "people who aren't like us"; then I'd tell the child which of their friends they wouldn't be allowed to be friends with any more (if this were europe of that time), whether by dint of religion or nationality or race or hair colour. Hopefully the child should be appalled at this horrid idea, and you can observe that a lot of europe was thoroughly infected with this race-nationalism, to which much of the horror of the 20th Century can be attributed. Mimetic Polyalloy (talk) 13:59, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Its "us" and "them" - you give "us" comparative prestige by creating an out-group "them" and humiliating or despising them. The person who does this is considered a hero by the "us" group. This principle seems to apply at all levels from schoolchild bullying to Nazi Germany. I also remember reading a book - probably Adam Tooze, The wages of destruction : the making and breaking of the Nazi economy - about the wartime Nazi economy which described how the possessions of the murdered Jewish people - houses, flats, clothes, household goods etc were systematically harvested and given or sold at bargain prices by the government to bombed-out and other Germans, so that even at the end of the war there were not the material shortages in Germany that there were in Britain. The standard of living of particularly the lower class Germans actually rose during the war, with for example lower-class German women wearing fur-coats. Thus the genocide was an essential part of the economy. The book also describes how the Nazis effectively looted occupied europe by paying the soldiers fabulous wages in occupation money which they used to buy things and send back home. There is another similar book about this subject which I have not read. 89.243.214.67 (talk) 23:17, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Herostratus

If the Greeks forbade any mention of Herostratus and his infamous act of arson, how was Theopompus able to get away with recording it? 86.8.176.85 (talk) 11:38, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

The city of Ephesus forbade it, from what the article says. "The Greeks" as a whole were rarely united about anything... AnonMoos (talk) 12:18, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Oldest ruling royal family

Hi,

I was wondering which royal family is the oldest ruling one?

12:43, 9 February 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.32.126.11 (talk)

The Yamato Dynasty have been Emperors of Japan since 660 BC, at least according to "official" Japanese history. Even if it doesn't really go back that far, it still is, IIRC, the oldest documented continuous male-only-primogeniture ruling line in the world. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 12:50, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

It rather depends on what you mean by "royal family" and "oldest"; and, indeed, by "ruling". If it's just a matter of descent in one line or another from other kings, then Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom can claim descent from Cerdic of Wessex, who in 495 was busy invading what was not yet England, so the British royal family can say it is older than England. You may have something more specific than that in mind, though, such as the continuous male-line descent of a kingdom. If so, perhaps you could identify what you are after? Xn4 (talk) 22:48, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Wallace Bridge Railway Station

I’m not sure if you can help me but I have been desperately seeking information and/or photos of an old railway station that was located on the Station Road in Wallace Bridge, NS approximately 1 km to the right of the old Wallace River Swing Bridge. I have found very little information on this station. It is possible that this was a privately owned site which had a post office located within. It is believed that this location did not pick up passengers but only delivered parcels and such. I have received information that the train stopped twice daily in 1939 but other than that information seems to be scarce. Any information you could provide would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks,

Cheryl —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.176.161.58 (talk) 12:52, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

What railway line, for a start?--Wetman (talk) 16:05, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

I poked around the net and Google Earth, and I came up with little. The station seems to have been on the Oxford & New Glasgow Railway. A zoom-in with Google Earth at 45°47′41.7″N 63°32′31.47″W shows what looks like the remains of the lot for what used to be the station and the platform on the south side of the track, but no structures. I found a picture of a legal document (under "Oxford and New Glasgow Railway") describing the land to be acquired from a certain J.D. Henderson, November 18, 1891, for the land where I think the station was, and for the western end of the bridge. I found many images of old Nova Scotia railway stations at Images Nova Scotia, but their search engine seems to be down right now. --Milkbreath (talk) 16:41, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

The movie "Dita Saxova"

This is really a question for our Czech colleagues. In the movie "Dita Saxova" (which is quite well-known in the Czech Republic), there is a scene at the train station where one of the girls takes a chalk and writes "R.U." on the departing train. What is the meaning of these letters? I asked several of my Czech friends and they have no idea. There is no person with these initials in the movie and this scene is not present in the novel upon which the movie is based (which I read). The only suggestion I heard so far is that it stands for "Austro-Hungarian" in Czech - however this makes no sense in the context of the movie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.233.172.119 (talk) 17:23, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

19th Century Chinese Art

I am looking for some information on a painting that we have. The closest I have come so far was on Google, Chinese Art of the 19th century; File: Chinese painting, Ancestors gallery. This was under commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Catagory: Art of the Ming Dynasty. The Chinese Empresses look very much like our painting. Who can I contact to find out about our painting24.247.25.157 (talk) 20:28, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Can you indicate in some way the specific file? AnonMoos (talk) 22:39, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Immigration to Europe from America

Which country in Europe would be the easiest for a middle-aged American with no money and unremarkable qualifications or skills to settle pernamently in? For example, immigration to the UK for people from outside the European Community is difficult: are there other european countries where they are not so fussy?

Or, to put it another way, which country in the European Union is the easiest for an American to legally settle in (ie live there for many years and have a legitimate job) please? 89.243.214.67 (talk) 21:08, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Do you have any languages other than English? That's a practical matter than can be very limiting. While many, if not most, Europeans speak at least some English, you would be unlikely to get a job of any note in a country where you couldn't get by in the local language. ៛ BL ៛ (talk) 02:42, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Do you have any family connections with any European country (parent or grandparent born there)? If not, and you have no desireable skills, then I can only suggest marriage to a citizen. -- Arwel Parry (talk) 02:52, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree, getting a standard work permit will likely be very difficult without any useful skills, regardless of what country you try for. You could try and get a job before you go there and have them sponsor the application, but that will probably be difficult as they would only hire you if no-one suitable applied from with the EU, which is unlikely. Claiming a connection by either blood or marriage would seem your only option. --Tango (talk) 11:27, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Well you could try Ireland as English is still widely spoken there as a second language, with Gaelic as the first. --TammyMoet (talk) 10:27, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately, we never did manage to fully revive the Gaeilge. English is universal in Ireland. Fribbler (talk) 10:45, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm surprised at TammyMoets belief: in reality I understand the English is the first language for most people. Same as Wales and Welsh. 78.146.185.139 (talk) 12:47, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Irish may not be the most popular language in Ireland, but is the official language. Welsh and English have equal status in Wales. Tomdobb (talk) 13:44, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

'Official' and 'widely-spoken' are not the same thing. Certainly in Ireland. DJ Clayworth (talk) 19:01, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Hence, "Irish may not be the most popular language in Ireland." If it wasn't clear already, I'm referring only to these languages' official status and not how common they are. Tomdobb (talk) 19:06, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for replies. I was asking on behalf of someone else. Language does not seem to be a concern for her, although I am not sure if she is either happy to learn by total immersion or does not appreciate how difficult it might be. I was wondering if some of the new entrants to the EU might have more relaxed entry criteria that for example the UK. 78.146.185.139 (talk) 12:41, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

As far as I know, the UK is still the country with the most immigrants in the EU. Other than that, she should probably try a region/country with low unemployment rates, like southern Germany or maybe Switzerland or Iceland (the latter two are not part of the EU, of course). Or she could try to become a (substitute) English teacher in a country with few English speakers (maybe Spain, or Eastern Europe?)--Roentgenium111 (talk) 18:16, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I think the unemployment rates for Iceland that you're looking for are out-of-date... And I think most (if not all) countries in the EU require teachers to be well qualified (in the UK, you need a degree and the 1 year teaching qualification [or equivalent]). You might be able to teach English privately as a tutor, or in some kind of adult education institution, but not in a school. --Tango (talk) 18:47, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

February 10

Wyszesława

Who was Wyszesława of Kiev? She is the wife of Casimir I the Restorer. Royal coronations in Poland doesn't mention her but Gniezno Cathedral says she was coronated in 25 December 1076. Any known more like when was she born, when she died, when she married Casimir and who was her parents. I guessing she is a Rurikid with the Kievan origin. --Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 01:59, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

The Gniezno Cathedral article calls her the wife of Bolesław II the Bold, is that who you mean? --Cam (talk) 02:43, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I need more than that. I already know that.--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 03:27, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

OK, she is Wyszesława Światosławówna. Another spelling is Vizeslava Sviatoslavna. She was the daughter of Sviatoslav_II_of_Kiev. --Cam (talk) 04:21, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

A look at the PL Wikipedia article and a quick Google search, and I got so many additional question marks! Virtually nothing can be told for sure about her – not even who her father and her husband were if she ever existed at all. Let's start with a summary of what the unscourced PL WP article says:

According to Jan Długosz, King Bolesław II of Poland married Wyszesława Światosławówna (Vysheslava Sviatoslavna), daughter of Prince Sviatoslav II of Kiev. However, in 1895, Oswald Balzer proved that Długosz was wrong. Bolesław's wife was probably of either Ruthenian or German origin, but her or her father's name are unknown. She got married in 1069 at latest as this was the year when her son Mieszko was born. She was probably crowned queen of Poland in 1076. In 1079 she found herself in exile in Hungary, together with her husband and son. She was widowed in 1081/82 and returned to Poland with Mieszko in 1086. In 1089 Mieszko was poisoned and she is known to have participated in his funeral. Her further fate, or the date of her death, is unknown.

That's one thing. Now, in this bibliographic dictionary of the House of Rurik, you can find the following entry:

Vysheslava Viacheslavna (died after 1067), daughter of Prince Viacheslav Yaroslavich of Smolensk. After her mother, Oda Leopoldovna (herself daughter of a German count) was widowed, she was taken to Germany, and in 1067 wed to King Bolesław II of Poland.

So regardless of whether she was married to Bolesław or not, there is also a confusion about her father – was it Sviatoslav (1027–1076), the third son of Yaroslav I the Wise, or Viacheslav (1036–1057), Yaroslav's fifth son (see Ярослав I Мудрый at RU WP)? The confusion may stem from the fact that, according to RU WP, both Sviatoslav and Viacheslav were at some point married to Oda Leopoldovna, Vysheslava's mother... I think the short answer to your questions, Little Spy, is: nobody knows. — Kpalion^(talk) 18:25, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I found some more info on this Russian historical website:

Długosz calls Bolesław's wife Vysheslava the only daughter of a Ruthenian Prince. Kromer says that her father's name is unknown. Hübner, in his Genealogische Tabellen, calls her daughter Vyslava, which Lomonosov corrects to Viacheslava. In Ruthenian chronicles, Boleslaw's wife is described as a "beautiful girl". Tatishchev believes Vysheslava was a daughter of Grand Duke Sviatoslav Yaroslavich. Not knowing Tatishchev's sources, we have to rely on one Gustinskoy Chronicle, which said that "Bolesław the Bold... married... a daughter of Viacheslav, Yaroslav's grandson [sic]. — Kpalion^(talk) 19:35, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Oda of Meissen

Was Oda of Meissen,the last wife of Bolesław I the Brave alived when he was crowned in 1025?--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 03:27, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Jan Dlugosz says she was but it is otherwise uncertain. From the Polish Wikipedia article on her.[20] --JGGardiner (talk) 08:59, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Vancouver, BC as "Lotus Land"

Why does Vancouver have this nickname? There's no mention of it in Vancouvers article. Where does it come from? What is it referring to? I found some answers here but which one is correct?

Not sure if I'm posting this is in the right place.. maybe Reference desk/Language might've been more appropriate. OlEnglish (talk) 02:45, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I think it is probably related to the concept of the Lotus eaters. From that article, "In modern usage, the term... is used as a pejorative. It refers to persons who are addicted to illicit plant based or other drugs and who have lost their will to productively contribute to society. It can also mean persons who are insulated from the real-world consequences of their own poor judgment or laziness." As a new resident of the Greater Vancouver area, I probably shouldn't speculate on how accurate a portrayal that is of my neighbours... - Eron^Talk 03:16, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I've heard the term, but never considered it to be especially insulting. I knew about the mythological connection, but always interpreted the phrase to mean a pleasant place with nice weather, with some hippie overtones thrown in by envious easterners. Clarityfiend (talk) 08:44, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I've heard people refer to Vancouver as the San Francisco of Canada, so the hippie connotation work with lotus-eating as well. You rarely hear Medicine Hat being compared to, say, Berkeley, California. --- OtherDave (talk) 19:36, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Yaroslav I the Wise

Our article on Yaroslav I the Wise mentions a forensic examination of his remains, carried out circa 1930. Are there any published materials on that? What were the findings? Thanks, --Dr Dima (talk) 06:19, 10 February 2009 (UTC) . NB: webpages/papers in Russian or Ukrainian are OK, I can read both. --Dr Dima (talk) 07:55, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't know but Mikhail Gerasimov did a facial reconstruction in 1938. The source from his book says there was an anthropological examination and a radiographic examination as well."yaroslav+the+wise"+radiographical&dq="yaroslav+the+wise"+radiographical&lr=&pgis=1 So you might want to start there if you want to research it. --JGGardiner (talk) 09:01, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

no more room in hell; the dead shall walk the Earth

I heard the phrase "when there is no more room in hell, the dead shall walk the Earth". I would like to know where it came from originally. Is it a Biblical references? ----Seans Potato Business 08:54, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

It's the tagline for George Romero's wonderful Dawn of the Dead, and I think that's where it came from -- I don't think it's a quote from anything else. (If it is, though, I'd really like to know where it's from as well.) -- Captain Disdain (talk) 09:08, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Pictures of Parliament

Where can I find the pictures of the parliament of Bangladesh, meaning the seating plan and its diagram of the seating plan where the members of parliament seat? Same thing with India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Bahrain, Qatar, Yemen, Somalia, Afghanistan, Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Palestine, and Jordan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.204.74.110 (talk) 17:24, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I'd think some of them would want to keep that info secret, such as in India where they're the target of terrorists. Also, you seem to assume they all have assigned seats. I don't think that's true in all cases. StuRat (talk) 19:05, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Here's Sri Lanka's: [21]. StuRat (talk) 19:11, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Cthulhu copyright?

Is the name Cthulhu or the phrase "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh C'thulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" which are both widely used by horror and sci-fi fans everywhere, especially in genre parodies or as homage, copyrighted or trademarked? Is it possible for an author to use them in her work? --Sonjaaa (talk) 18:40, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

We can't give legal advice, I'm afraid. You'll need to consult a lawyer. --Tango (talk) 18:43, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

WWII

During WWII, Hitler hoped the alliance between the USSR and the Western Allies would collapse. This, of course, didn't happen. What I am curious about is what would have happened had the alliance broken down immediately after the end of WWII and a full shooting war had erupted? IOW, who would have won? I know that for Operation Sea Lion, the British conducted a wargame to see if it would have worked Operation_Sea_Lion#Post-war_test_of_the_plan. I know that we have lots of articles about WWII and the Cold War but I don't think we have anything on this topic. I'm especially curious about the time period before Eisenhower started pulling out American troops. 216.239.234.196 (talk) 19:37, 10 February 2009 (UTC)