User talk:Jimbo Wales

A new solution for BLP dilemmas?

Hi Jimbo, in two years of looking for solutions to the BLP issues have finally stumbled upon an idea that hasn't been raised before. Basically it's this:

Suppose we noindexed biographies of living persons, upon the subject's request.

This would require developer assistance, and require a bit of structure to make sure the ability doesn't get misused. An initial draft proposal is at my blog.[1] Am interested in your thoughts. Durova^Charge! 20:54, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

It does indeed sound ingenious [with an "o"]. -- Hoary (talk) 02:06, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

This is a great idea Durova! 98.210.241.176 (talk) 06:04, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

That sounds like an awful idea. What is the point of even having the biography if it isn't visible to search engines. You might as well just propose deleting it at the subject's request. Prodego ^talk 06:15, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I like Prodego's idea best. Let's go with that one. We'll call it... oh, Dead Tree Opt Out, or something like that. لennavecia 06:24, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Oy. That would be quite fun for us admins to get to deal with... Valley2city^‽ 06:28, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

One point of having a bio that's not visible to search engines is to satisfy the curiosity of people who don't always bother with search engines. -- Hoary (talk) 06:27, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

My point is that either an article is bad, and should be deleted, or good, and should be kept. If an article isn't good enough for Google it isn't good enough for Wikipedia either. Prodego ^talk 06:36, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Have to agree with Prodego here. Either it sucks and should be deleted (for whatever reason) or it should remain and be fully indexed. THAT SAID HOWEVER, we should be using flagged revisions / full protection of every single WP:BLP article on here. The solution ALREADY exists and why we aren't already using it is BEYOND ME. Wikipedia fail. JBsupreme (talk) 07:05, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

The problem is that crappy articles on non-notable people get kept because people don't understand or completely ignore the criteria. So we're stuck trying to protect and maintain more BLPs than we are capable of effectively doing. The Foundation and Jimbo are not concerned with the BLP problem because the Foundation enjoys the protection of Section 230. However, for those of us whose concern is with the vicitims of BLPs, it's not an easy job to clean this mess up, and we've got years of mess to clean up while new crap is constantly being dumped on us. There aren't enough editors with a grasp on the gravity of the situation, so it remains overwhelming. That said, Jimbo, for those of us who dedicate the vast majority of our time on Wikipedia to preventing and cleaning up the John Seigenthaler, Fuzzy Zoeller, Taner Akçam and Catherine Crier-type messes, what improvement to this entirely broken system can we look forward to, and when? Or are you and the Foundation just going to leave the problem festering indefinitely? لennavecia 14:10, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I object very strongly to your characterization of me and the Foundation not being concerned with this. I have led the way for many years in the development and enforcement of BLP and I have been a strong supporter of the software development for Flagged Revisions, and for the policy development that will roll it out. It doesn't do your case any good to turn on your strongest supporter! Perhaps you're not aware of the current status - we're waiting on Brion Vibber to roll the feature out, and he's indicated "before Wikimania" as a target date. I can't magically help with the software issues, whatever they may be, but if I could, I would!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:02, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

By allowing search engines to index BLP, Wikipedia is immediately spreading libel and defamation around the world. And the problem is getting worse: Microsoft Bing is touting its prominent use of BLP as an advantage over Google! NOINDEX will largely prevent this.67.169.147.73 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:30, 5 June 2009 (UTC).

Quite right. And when the libel hits Google, it's picked up by mirrors. So even when we clean it up here, it can linger on other sites for weeks. لennavecia 15:04, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps combine this with Flagged Protection? When an article does not have flagged revision, tag it as NOINDEX, otherwise let search engines index the flagged revision. -- M2Ys4U ^(talk) 15:45, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

What really needs to be sorted out are the hard core minority of vociferous admins who are devising their own unique interpretations of BLP, such as out of sight special protection forums, dead tree notability or time limited notability, and 2 hour deletion discussions, and applying these across the pedia as if they were policy. MickMacNee (talk) 16:48, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Or we could clue in the people who think there is value in having poor-quality, unwatched biographies on non-notable or marginally notable living people, opening them up for real-world damage, because of some stupid tag line about anyone being able to edit. There are better things to do with one's time here than defend Wikipedia's imaginary right or obligation to host libel platforms of living people while simultaneously disrespecting a devaluing the work of those wasting their time tying to fix the problem. We wouldn't have to resort to liberal interpretations of policy and special forums if people would stop ignoring the problem and exhibit some commonsense and basic decency. لennavecia 17:16, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't usually get involved in these discussions, but I do want to know: why the hell hasn't something been done about the appalling state BLPs have been in for what would appear to be years? Skinny87 (talk) 17:35, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

A combination of 1) the WMF being unwilling or unable to intervene in content matters to not endanger their Section 230 legal immunity under the Telecommunications Act; 2) concentrated pushback from "open wiki" advocates who are more interested in the juvenile libertarian views that some aspects of this project were built around (this will be hardest to beat, as far as BLP goes); 3) apathy, as it's a constant struggle against #2. rootology (C)(T) 17:48, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Rootology, #1 is completely and totally false. I can tell you with great confidence that when the Foundation board has discussed BLP issues, software development around Flagged Revs, etc., it has NEVER been proposed by board or staff that we should not do something about BLP issues due to Section 230 concerns. Never, not once, not at all. That's just not true, and we should put a stop right here and now to any rumors to that effect.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:05, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

A lot has been done and is currently being done. Flagged versioning has been approved for all BLPs and is right now being worked on by the Foundation's software staff to be able to implement it. As for Section 230 legal immunity under the Telecommunications Act, the whole point of that section is to encourage content modification by promising such modification (such as deletion of potential libel) does not make the entity then responsible for content it did not modify or create. WAS 4.250 (talk) 18:19, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't know how anyone can claim Wikipedia is not doing its upmost to protect living people. Take a look at the recently closed DRV for our ex-arbitrator David Boothroyd, who had an article for three years until mysteriously dissappearing once a bit of scandal broke. The new streamlined BLP enforcement process is now well established - throw Afd out the window and delete an article out of process (twice by the same admin no less) citing 'BLP', and when there is not 80% support at DRV that the closing admin was totally out of order, and he continues to be blissfully oblivous to the 14 people telling him he screwed up (not a big majority supposedly when compared to 16 people chiming in to carry on debating the Afd, while the article is invisible, and ignoring the fact the venue was DRV not AFd), it can then be claimed all is well with the world as there is no consensus to change the 'status quo'. It's a joke. It's no wonder The Register takes the piss mercilessly, it has ample source material. MickMacNee (talk) 18:59, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

"I don't know how anyone can claim Wikipedia is not doing its upmost to protect living people." Conversely, I don't know how anyone can claim Wikipedia is doing ANYWHERE NEAR ENOUGH to protect living people. It's shockingly scandalous and sooner or later someone is going to sue the WMF, and win, section 230 immunity or not. Even if they don't win, they can waste significant amounts of WMF time and resources defending. Pray someone with 100M in the bank (and there are a fair number of those) doesn't decide to invest 1% of their fortune... the cost to the WMF would be far more than 1%. ++Lar: t/c 19:22, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

100 million? I'm amazed no one has libeled one of the thousands of billionaires in the world yet, enough to get them to open years of legal proceedings. If a billionaire (1 bill only in the bank) wanted to dump $500,000 in legal costs at us, it would be only 0.0005% of his static wealth. That would be like one of us with $10,000 deciding to spend $5.00 to get back at the WMF. Chump change. Pray that some fool doesn't libel the wrong billionaire. If one of them decided to spend $100.00 in "real person" money, it would be like the WMF defending against what--a million dollar legal assault? rootology (C)(T) 19:29, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes yes yes, the mythical lawsuit that's always just around the corner. Although it never happens, and for quite obvious reasons. And if you doubt the new power of BLP deletions, just read the Afd policy, the BLP policy, and try and square them with the above incident, and the actions of the admin in question, who to this minute remains purposely oblivious to the widespread feedback about his unilateral action in the name of Defending the Living People TM (he posted directly below me just now, presumably for effect). MickMacNee (talk) 19:32, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

• From somebody who knows a bit about search, this is a bad idea. Wikipedia is licensed in a way that encourages copying. Noindexing does not resolve problems. If content is dodgy, it has to be removed. If we do mass noindexing, people who want to make a quick buck will just set up a mirror with the noindexed content and the traffic will go to them instead of to us. Jehochman ^Talk 19:13, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

There will only be a few noindex articles if Wikipedia requires a notarized letter from the person in the biography. This will only happen in a few egregious caes.171.66.109.236 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:25, 7 June 2009 (UTC).

• I'm not convinced this is a good idea either. But it has the merit of bringing some of the folk who knee jerk resist ANY idea to help ameliorate the BLP problem out where they can be seen. ++Lar: t/c 19:22, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
• This is a good idea, much better than the flagged revisions idea and would go a long way towards placating these individuals. While flagged revisions does affect our free editing idea and take huge amounts of voluntary effort we have no remit to maximise wikipedia's presence in the search engines (that is not in the vision at all) and if this could be done as a software fix it would just need a small amount of work by the foundation in maintaining a list of verified abstainers. If Barak Obama does not want to be on the search engines for his wikipedia article? No problem because we have no remit to put our presence in the search engines. Jehochman, I hope I know a bit about search too. I am sure it wouldn't be a large list, a few hundred at most, and what other commercial operators do with our material is not our problem, its their problem. Thanks, SqueakBox talk 23:11, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
• Not a bad idea, but not the best idea either. The root of the problem is the creation of poor quality/non-neutral/libellous BLPs, so the best solution would be one that most directly addresses that root problem. Noindexing will only help those who have already been damaged by their bio sufficiently to prompt them to contact us. Flagged revs is a much better solution, and better still would be a combo of flagged revs and a higher inclusion standard for BLPs. 203.213.2.194 (talk) 00:07, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Whatever happened to "helping the Internet not suck"? Have Wikipedia's administrators come to the conclusion that "we help the internet suck a lot, so we should go away"? Content pages should not be NOINDEXED, that's tantamount to taking Wikipedia's articles offline. I don't even like the idea of NOINDEXing other pages--if I google something, and it's on the Internet, I expect to find it--though I guess it's necessary in some circumstances. I suppose that NOINDEXing a few troublesome bios won't be a big deal (as long as they aren't particularly well-known). But I'm afraid this will lead to a creeping NOINDEXing of all BLPs. 67.187.92.105 (talk) 01:53, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

"I can't magically help with the software issues, whatever they may be, but if I could, I would!"

Sorry to pull the quote out like this, but you're a member of the Board, which has ultimate control over the priorities of the Foundation. Have you tried saying "this is more important than planning a vacation in Buenos Aires, focus on this first"? --MZMcBride (talk) 22:06, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that is at all fair to the people working at the Foundation. If you think the developers are spending their days "planning a vacation" then I don't know what to tell you.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:24, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Indeed the software is excellent on wikipedia, clearly people working hard on it. Thanks, SqueakBox talk 13:42, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

My rhetoric aside, you didn't answer the question. A lot of contributors (I imagine yourself included) consider the "BLP problem" to be the single most important issue facing Wikipedia. Why isn't the Board pushing for a quicker implementation of software that has been ready since last June and had local consensus for months? I'm correct that the Board sets priorities for the Foundation, yes? --MZMcBride (talk) 17:27, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

The bug for a test implementation on en.labs.wikimedia.org, Template:Bug, has been opened since 4 April and remain unacted upon, and this while Aaron already made most of the internal extension updates (see Wikipedia:Flagged protection and patrolled revisions/Implementation) and a working configuration is ready. I must say I'm also puzzled on the priorities, especially after having seen much pushing by the wmf, resources and time spent on the absolutely non-critical book extension which generated massive usability problems. But it takes months to even have a test for this ? Doesn't seem right... Cenarium (talk) 01:19, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Global libel/copyvio/defense of the WMF policy?

I wonder if the WMF issued a global top-down policy--by fiat--that local projects must remove any content that "may legally endanger or expose" the WMF, would endanger their Sec 230 protection? Just tossing this out there, as a possible way that BLP can be given bullets via the WMF. rootology (C)(T) 19:36, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Way too broad. That would be like giving legal threats "teeth".. If it's a verified legal issue, something like WP:OFFICE should cover it. --Versageek 19:48, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, the idea would be simply that this would (like the present global copyvio rules) be a non-editorial direction from the WMF that projects must comply with (non-negotiable, like present copyvio rules), and that would be carried out by users on the editorial level, but would be the equivalent of a user citing OFFICE--any invocation must then be backed up by local consensus, with the WMF simply not weighing in, shielding themselves. This would give both BLP and Copyvio rules "solid teeth" that cannot be circumvented. rootology (C)(T) 19:51, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't think we have a problem of authority, do we? What I mean is, it isn't that there's a group of editors who are libeling people and no one is doing anything about it, or that admins in general, or ArbCom, or me in my role, don't have the authority to block people who are libeling, etc. I don't think, to answer your first question directly, that there is much that the WMF could do that would endanger Section 230 protection. The protection doesn't extend to edits done by employees or board members, but setting editorial policy (even in a strong way that would be against our traditions) would not make the Foundation responsible for what other people write. That's more or less the whole point of Section 230 protection. However, I am not a lawyer, so this is amateur musings. In any event, I guess my answer is that "no, I don't think it would endanger Section 230, and no, I don't think it would help, since I don't think this proposal addresses a problem that we actually have". I'm open to argument, of course.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:08, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

What do you think would help, Jimbo? لennavecia 18:14, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

1. Flagged revisions 2. Firm enforcement of existing policy with low tolerance for whining 3. Tweaks to policy whenever it falls short. Perhaps we could make this discussion more concrete if we look at some specific example where you feel that there was a failure that a command from the Foundation (or me?) might have helped?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:27, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

2 is what we've been focusing on. This statement from you should assist in enforcing the low tolerance for whining, though. So thank you. We're working on 3. As for specific examples, I could list out some recent edits that introduced unsourced, negative false information into BLPs and were left unreverted for an unacceptable amount of time, or I could list out some OTRS tickets; but that's not the point, and I don't think the problem is seriously in question anymore. The problem being that we don't have the resources to monitor all of our BLPs, and as long as anyone can edit them, we're allowing living people to be libeled.
We're doing as much as we can. We've started WikiProject Living people, organized WP:BLP/N, identified tens of thousands of BLPs not categorized in Category:Living people. We list potential BLP violations for editors to check and correct, fight for the protection of living subjects in AFDs, etc, etc.
The new Foundation document talks about guarding against self-promotion, but it doesn't talk about the imperative to protect against libel. The way to satisfy both the Section 230 issue and the BLP issue would be for the Foundation to do the same thing it did with non-free images. Issuing an wmf:EDP style document saying that sites which host material on third party individuals with legal rights against libel and slander must have and enforce a policy to protect those legal rights or the material will be deleted.
With the non-free image EDP, Wikipedia was quite successful in ensuring a minimal level of protection for copyright holders of non-free images and creating across the board compliance with a core policy. It's time for the Foundation to make the BLP problem a top priority. لennavecia 22:14, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

"The way to satisfy both the Section 230 issue and the BLP issue would be for the Foundation to do the same thing it did with non-free images." -- Thank you. I'm not always the most to the point person, or I'm too to the point, but this is exactly the point I was trying to make. rootology (C)(T) 13:31, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Jimbo, any thoughts on the above? لennavecia 13:10, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

New site design?

Hi there, Jimbo. I was just wondering if you have any intent to update Wikipedia's design anytime soon, because I live and breathe this kind of thing (interface/website design), and have been thinking about the kind of design philosophy that would help the editing experience in particular be able to reach people of the third-world, and be accessible/inviting to non-tech-savvy users in general... (without developing an interface that requires endless bandwidth). And, of course, the look of the site. Anyway, you can see what I do here (software design stuff at the bottom), and if you're curious, I can mock up a photoshop comp (preview) so you can see if you wanna mess around with the idea. If you do, I would do all this for free until work actually gets started (in other words, free during the design phase), then just collect some dough upon completion. (so you understand I wouldn't be trying to get myself into something that I would try to make drag on for eternity, for more dough)
Otherwise, if you aren't interested, don't bother replying (waste of time); you can just delete this off your page. (btw, my email is dario@deefrag.com)--Dario D. (talk) 21:05, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Hi Dario, I don't personally have anything to do with the design work that is going on. As MZMcBride points out (below), though, there is work going on, and I am sure the group doing it would love to have your help.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 05:08, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

MediaWiki is skinnable software – there's plenty to choose from here if you don't like the look-and-feel of the standard Monobook interface. – iridescent 21:21, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

The Usability project has been tweaking the interface. Some preliminary work here: http://prototype.wikimedia.org/en.wikipedia.org (which appears to be down currently). --MZMcBride (talk) 22:21, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, I didn't know about that group. Thanks for pointing that out, Jimbo. - Iridescent, thanks for the info. :) What I'm leaning toward though is new functionality for everyone, not just those advanced enough to be messing with skins. - MZMcBride, thanks for the link. It's still down (was only able to see it briefly yesterday), but I'm going to look into it, and hope they have a "do" mentality regarding updating the editing experience in particular (because someone like my mom - or less educated people in poorer countries - could never figure out how to do anything more than add a line to an article - then very likely have it deleted by some disrespectful fool, for not citing any sources). So, hopefully there's an open road to improvement here, because whenever I'm editing articles, or even just browsing the site, I (and presumably everybody else) feel like I'm back in 1997.--Dario D. (talk) 03:14, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Images from the Associated Press

Greetings. There seems to be some disagreement on whether it is acceptable to use Associated Press images in Wikipedia articles. Of course we don't want to get sued. I remember that you had previously taken action on this issue at File:Il-76 shootdown.jpg, so I wanted to make you personally aware of what's going on with File:Corralesx.jpg, it's unsuccessful nomination for deletion, and its first and second (current) appearances at Deletion Review. I have e-mailed Mike Godwin and left a message here on his talk page. If you would be willing to make some sort of a statement, it would help us to sort this whole thing out. Thanks, – Quadell ^(talk) 15:23, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the deletion decision on File:Corralesx.jpg as well as the rationale given for the deletion: clearly replaceable fair use. It's disappointing to see that there's any debate about this at all. It's a no-brainer. --Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:14, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Could you explain why it's clearly replaceable? I'm not seeing it. Are you assuming that there must be a free version of the picture somewhere or that the image of the boxer isn't needed, or that a free image can be created somehow (say a drawing?) or something else? Hobit (talk) 18:14, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Diego Corrales is a famous boxer who has been photographed professionally and informally by fans tens of thousands of times. The particular photo in question is not historically unique in some irreplacable way - it's just a standard shot of a boxer in a boxing pose. I am not assuming that a free version currently exists, nor that it could be replaced by a drawing, nor that it isn't needed. I am suggesting that it should not be very difficult to find a photo and get it released under a free license.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:09, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

That is a compelling arguement for the image's deletion. The problem is that it's one that the deleting administrator knew to be controversial (and for that very reason, deliberately deprived the community of the opportunity to address). As the image is in a deleted state, non-administrators were left unable to view it and see for themselves that it lacks historical uniqueness (an assessment with which I fully agree, incidentally). —David Levy 22:02, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Hello, Jimbo. While I strongly agree with the general sentiment that you expressed here, I believe that you've misunderstood the nature of the discussion.
You voted to delete the image, but that isn't the purpose of that forum. The debate is not over whether the image ultimately should be kept or deleted; it's over whether the correct process was followed in speedily deleting the image without input from the community. (If the deletion is reversed, the image will be considered for deletion in the proper forum.) Note that the deleting administrator has openly acknowledged that he/she sidestepped the deletion policy (which required that the image be tagged for 48 hours, thereby enabling other users to examine the situation) to eliminate the possibility that another administrator would arrive at a different determination (clear evidence that the deletion was not uncontroversial and therefore warranted discussion).
This is highly problematic not because of anything related to this particular image, but because it stands to set a dangerous precedent for administrators to ignore policies (intended to ensure community oversight and input) and preemptively overrule other administers' decisions (thereby increasing the likelihood of disruptive wheel-warring). Regardless of whether the deletion was justified, I trust that you don't intend to condone the concept of administrators routinely disregarding key policies (let alone instances in which they do so specifically because they regard an act as controversial and wish to bypass the rest of the community), something that places non-administrators at a lower level (by denying them involvement in the decision-making process) in addition to the aforementioned wheel-warring among sysops.
In light of this, I hope that you'll reconsider your position and instead vote to delete the image when it's listed for deletion. Thank you for your time! —David Levy 20:01, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

For the record, I would not in this case have recommended that Carnildo take the course of action he did. It was a mistake for him to do that, rather than re-nominate and raise a broader attention to the situation. But that's not a reason to undelete a clearly inappropriate image only to re-delete it later. WP:IAR and all that. What I'm saying is: if you have a problem with Carnildo's conduct, then go through the normal dispute resolution procedures to do something about it. That's a separate issue from whether or not the image belongs here.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:17, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

The matter discussed at Wikipedia:Deletion review was precisely whether Carnildo was correct in taking the course of action he did. That is the normal forum for disputes over whether the proper deletion process has been followed. Indeed, this issue was separate from whether or not the image belonged here, which was explicitly not a determination to be made in that forum.

This is not to say that deletions should be reversed on technicalities when nearly everyone agrees that they're obviously called for. But this case clearly brought with it significant disagreement and major ramifications regarding what inclusion standards will be applied in the future (irrespective of whether the correct process is followed).

The image seemed "clearly inappropriate" to you and others with the ability to view it, but the vast majority of users lacked access to it. The community is now faced with the question of whether we want to establish a hierarchy in which lowly non-sysops are forced to blindly accept the word of administrators, even when other administrators disagree. In part, this is a matter of transparency (and the avoidance of creating an elite class of users whose opinions not only outweigh those of ordinary users, but actually bypass them entirely). —David Levy 22:02, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

The process isn't more important than the outcome. It is trivially obvious that this image cannot satisfy WP:NFCC. The 48-hour exemption is designed to allow time for explanations to be added for legitimate uses of non-free material; where no such legitimate explanation is possible, there's no point to sitting on our thumbs for 48 hours. This wasn't a case of an administrator ignoring a key policy, it was an administrator enforcing one. Unless you're arguing that we need to waste 48 hours before deleting every AP photo someone uploads...? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 20:10, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

No, certainly not. But this isn't an instance in which someone uploaded an AP image of a living person with no reasonable fair-use rationale. This is an image of a deceased individual that was examined by the community and deemed appropriate. Of course, the discussion of this particular issue was limited (but not nonexistent) and it absolutely warranted greater attention (via a proper deletion nomination). Instead, a sysop decided to ignore the community and speedily delete the image outside of the correct process (despite knowing that other administrators would disagree with the deletion rationale—and, in fact, because of this).

Now, understand that I'm not arguing that the image should be kept. But given its history and the ongoing discussion's nature, its deletion hardly seems like a "trivially obvious" decision to me.

I absolutely agree that process is less important than the outcome. But what is the outcome of this speedy deletion? Drama and disruption (an entirely foreseeable consequence). Even if I'm certain that an administrative action would be 100% justified, I won't perform it if I believe that the resultant controversy will outweigh the benefit(s). That is what I believe has occurred in this instance (and will occur in many future instances if this action is permitted to stand).

I also despise the idea of eliminating community oversight. Wikipedia is not operated under majority rule, and a bunch of people lining up to demand that an image be kept doesn't mean that it will be. But to remove the ability of non-administrators to even examine a controversial situation (let alone provide input) is unacceptable. —David Levy 20:33, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

It seems to me that the purpose of the Ignore All Rules pillar is to allow users to protect Wikipedia from major problems (e.g. lawsuits) when bureaucratic process gets in the way. I think the image has to be deleted, and I think everyone who understands our policy agrees. The trouble is, there are enough active admins who disagree that this is rapidly devolving into a wheel war. – Quadell ^(talk) 21:02, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

I do agree that WP:IAR is relevant here, but I'm not giving either support nor condemnation to the speedy deletion by Carnildo. I would have advised him to proceed differently. I don't think we should establish a general precedent for admins to randomly delete images in all similar circumstances, just because it's really hard to say sometimes. But sometimes it is worthwhile to remember that IAR is important, as it allows someone some moral breathing room to stand up and say 'what's right is right'. I hope that Carnildo will be gentle and conciliatory towards his critics here.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:17, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

What's right is right, but it isn't an administrator's job to tell the community what's right (without even providing an opportunity for most users to see that it's right). —David Levy 22:02, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

You'll find no stronger proponent of Wikipedia:Ignore all rules than I am. But wheel wars and edit wars don't benefit the community. That's why the policy isn't called "Ignore all people with whom you disagree." —David Levy 22:02, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

This part is important: At 2PM, I set my mind to get a free photo of this man. By 2:30:37, I had one. "Jimmy, thank you for the email. Diego Corrales was a good friend of mine and you are more than welcome to use any photos of mine you would like for Wikipedia. I only ask for a credit in my name." I emailed back to confirm which license he's ok with, and I'll be able to upload it for him later today. This is why I say that that calling this image "replaceable" is correct: it was replaceable. Is 30 minutes of work too much work? No, it is not. That's part of the research process. We don't cut and paste from other sources because it would be faster. We do the legwork. And we're proud of that.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:37, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Pretty much simultaneously with that note from you, I had closed the DRV; NFCC trumps consensus. Good work, Jimbo. — Coren ^(talk) 21:45, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. The photographer has changed the license to CC-BY on this photo. I wonder if someone who is better at Commons policy and image uploading could handle the upload for him? I ask because I'm sure I will not put on the right tags or something and accidentally cause a problem at Commons. :-) --Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:53, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

And evidently, certain administrators' interpretation of that policy trumps that of other users to the extent that the matter need not even be discussed and the speedy deletion policy need not be followed. (For the record, I'm inclined to agree with said interpretation, but this is beside the point.) —David Levy 22:02, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

That's a fair assesment of my interpretation, actually. While some may feel this regretable, there are cases that are, simply put, not open to discussion at all. This has nothing to do with the relative value of opinons held by users, simply that even if there was unanimity it could not override policy in those cases— ending the discussion sooner rather than later is the best course then because such discussions tend to quickly degenerate into acrimony and srife. — Coren ^(talk) 22:16, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

There is, to my knowledge, absolutely no question that the policy must be upheld, regardless of how many people disagree with it. (I noted above that "Wikipedia is not operated under majority rule, and a bunch of people lining up to demand that an image be kept doesn't mean that it will be.") The underlying issue is how to interpret the policy, and a number of users (including administrators) have a different interpretation than we do. I don't believe that you, I or any other administrator possesses the right to declare that his/her interpretation of a policy is correct (without even allowing alternative interpretations to be discussed). I'll stress once again that I share your interpretation of this policy, but I don't view our assessment as sacrosanct. There have been many instances in which respected administrators acting in good faith have misinterpreted and misapplied various policies (sometimes resulting in tremendous disruption), and it always is appropriate to discuss one's belief that this has occurred (or concern that it might have occurred).

Of course, none of this has any bearing on whether the correct process was followed in this case. Even if we assume that the deletion was justified, the manner in which it was carried out (deliberately intended to bypass discussion of a subject known to be controversial) was inappropriate and should not be condoned. That (and not the issue of how to apply WP:NFCC) was the matter at hand. (Though as I noted below, I now regard the issue as moot, aside from the precedent that this incident stands to set.) —David Levy 22:42, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Well yes, and no. I think that the only real difference between our positions is where the presumption should lie. There are a few cases where the presumption must overwhelmingly be against inclusion — copyright and defamation (hence NFCC and BLP) are two prominent examples — and that it is better to shoot first and ask questions later. In that particular case, DRV was not a suitable forum for this since the reason why the image was deleted was not overridable by consensus. I acknowledged in the close summary that process was probably not followed properly, but that it was moot before it started given that the only way it could result in an undeletion is if it was impossible to find a free image; something that had not even been attempted at that point. Process is "the usual way", but that's not always the best way to go forward. I might not have acted this way myself, but the immediate deletion of the image was a reasonable and defensible invocation of WP:IAR. — Coren ^(talk) 22:57, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with that final statement, and what bothers me most about your closure is that you appear to have endorsed not only the deletion itself, but the manner in which it was carried out (thereby encouraging sysops to behave this way in the future).

This is not an instance in which process was ignored because it was perceived as red tape. As noted above, Carnildo has openly acknowledged that he/she bypassed the correct process specifically because he/she regarded the deletion rationale as controversial and believed that another sysop might reach a different determination. This is a reason to bring an image to WP:FFD, not to attempt to sneak its deletion through by failing to even follow the terms of the CSD whose application is believed to be controversial. Apart from that belief, there was nothing special about this case to warrant deviating from the process through which such images are to be speedily deleted. Quite the opposite.

If we assume that CSD F7 applied (and I believe that it did), it still called for the image to be tagged for 48 hours. This is not a pointless exercise in bureaucracy; it's a means of ensuring the transparency and community oversight that is vital to the project's smooth operation, and it certainly isn't something to be sidestepped for fear that it might result in precisely the type of discussion that it's intended to invite. Under no circumstances is it appropriate to invoke WP:IAR for the purpose of suppressing dissenting viewpoints; doing so doesn't improve or maintain Wikipedia. —David Levy 23:46, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

That's excellent news, Jimbo, and it bolsters the original argument for the image's deletion (while obviously erasing any possible fair use claim). But as stated above, whether the image was usable in the encyclopedia was not a determination to be made at Wikipedia:Deletion review (though I do believe that this development would have rendered the discussion moot if it hadn't already been closed). —David Levy 22:02, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Wow, way to cut the Gordian Knot, Jimbo! I have uploaded the photo to Commons as File:Diego Corrales.jpg. Hurrah! – Quadell ^(talk) 22:31, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Question

Jimbo, if you have the time I would like your opinion on a hypothetical situation - at a Deletion Review, someone votes to keep a page deleted. The DRV is closed as upheld but allows for the recreation of the page if the original problems are fixed. The person who voted to keep the page was an admin and decides to full protect the page from being created as per the DRV. Question - 1. Is the admin conflicted from being able to ethically page protect the original page? 2. Are page protections acceptable without seeking community support for such a salting of earth? 3. In the situation where the DRV is closed stating that the page should be recreated with the original problems corrected and conforming to Wiki standards a page that should have any sort of protection which would hinder the easy creation of the page with such fixes? Thank you for your time. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:07, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

This is pretty much standard operating procedure, Ottava. Normally, one would create a candidate replacement article in user space and bring it to DRV where it will be examined to see if the problems are, indeed, fixed. — Coren ^(talk) 23:10, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

I've never seen a page protected after an AfD or a DRV. I've only seen page protections after it was determined that multiple recreations were abusive. This was not the case. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:13, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Could you tell us what specific situation has prompted you to ask this 'hypothetical' question? I'm sure Jimbo would prefer to have all of the relevant information before offering a firm opinion. It would be very unfortunate if a general, off-the-cuff statement of his based on a purely hypothetical imaginary case were taken as some sort of definitive pronouncement on a specific issue. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 01:08, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

There's nothing remotely hypothetical about this situation. It has to do with Stifle's protection of Plot of Les Misérables following Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Plot of Les Misérables (2nd nomination) and Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2009 May 29#Plot of Les Misérables. See also the WP:ANI discussion, here (permalink as of 01:19, 9 June 2009). --auburnpilot talk 01:24, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I could provide one (and Auburn went ahead and did it for me), but I would rather have the founder's opinion on the ethical side for a more general interpretation of CoI than a specific ruling on a particular case. It seems that quite a few admin don't care if they put forth a vote and then uphold their opinion via protection. I feel that such a thing gets in the way of consensus and causes problems with content editing, but if Jimbo provides a good reason for it or points out something that is a concern that I am unable to see (problems related to content creation, vandalism, etc) then I wont worry about such a thing happening in the future. The problem with specifics is that they are just that, specific. We need a general understanding to work with, and the understanding would deal with the heart of this project as an encyclopedia, which the founder would understand better than the average person. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:27, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

You should know from real life work that most, if not all, managers understandably dislike being gamed by their employees in this manner, i.e. floating a trial baloon or hypethical situation question for their opinion when you have a current, real situation that you want to apply it to that you aren't telling them about. Yes, Wikipedia isn't a real life work situation but the same principle applies. Cla68 (talk) 01:30, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

The community is quite capable of handling a specific incident on its own. The founder is the only one capable of elucidating on the founding principles and what is ethically best for the project as a whole. Asking the CEO of a company what the company's mission is would be the equivalent to this. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:36, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

You didn't ask him what the mission of Wikipedia is. You detailed a specific situation, but presented it as hypothetical. Would be better, I think, to detail the situation with links, giving Jimmy all the details, then let him comment. His comment to a hypothetical situation would carry less weight than his comment on an actual situation, as the former leaves him less informed. لennavecia 02:45, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I can post other situations where the same action has come up before. And who said I want weight on the actual situation? I simply want his opinion on the matter. If he doesn't support the type of action, then I will feel more confident in my current feelings. If he believes there is enough problems to warrant such actions, then I will stand by his feelings and not worry about the action in the future. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:57, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Ottava Rima, first you say that "I've never seen a page protected after an AfD or a DRV.", and three hours later you claim that "I can post other situations where the same action has come up before." It looks like these two statements can't both be correct... Fram (talk) 07:00, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Censorship, bias and arbcom

Hey Jimbo. I'm curious what you make of the Arbcom member/ leftist politician violating conflict of interest policies and sock puppeteering? And now we also have admins working aggressively to delete the article about this politician that was KEPT in 2005. I thought notability doesn't expire? Does it expire when the politician and Arbcom member are caught undermining Wikipedia's integrity and after there is substantial coverage in reliable independent sources? Shouldn't this be something we work hard to root out? Arbcom seems to be very sick, and it's distressing that the problem of those engaging in censorship and bias goes all the way to the most powerful editors on Wikipedia. I guess this explains why they're so aggressive in supporting the NPOV violations and POV pushers going after anyone trying to balance our Obama coverage with notable controversies and criticisms? ChildofMidnight (talk) 00:43, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

CoM, I'm a little curious myself as to the nature of your question. Is it about ArbCom members or "leftist" politicians? Or do you feel that ArbCom members and leftism are one and the same? What exact question do you wish Jimbo to answer? Franamax (talk) 01:26, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

It's about bias, censorship, neutral point of view, conflicts of interest, and integrity. We have policies about these things, so it's surprising that so many editors don't seem aware of them or feel the need to comply with them. If it was conservative politician distorting our coverage I would support the same full disclosure, investigation, and clean up that's required here. This is a tip of the iceberg type situation where we have to pull the weeds out by the roots. I have no animosity against Sam, I haven't edited with him at all that I can recall, but we have policies and they need to be enforced. Those who are trying to cover up for him or to preserve the bias, NPOV violations, and other improprieties that permeate Arbcom and our political coverage need to be confronted. All editors, whatever their politics, need to enforce our policies and to make sure that our coverage is reliable, balanced, and appropriate. This is a big problem, and we have a real opportunity to address it starting with full disclosure and an honest approach to the problem. ChildofMidnight (talk) 03:30, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh yes, it's all a leftist conspiracy *rolls eyes* Skinny87 (talk) 08:05, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

You can roll your eyes that one of our Arbcom members was caught engaging in COI editing and sockpuppeteering. But I think this kind of policy violating behavior should be taken seriously. The camping out of editors on political articles to push a particular point of view is a serious problem that violates our core policy of neutral point of view. That an Arbcom member was himself engaged in this kind of behavior and that the other Arbcoms are in the process of going after good faith editors who have faced a wall of incivility, wikilawyering, obstruction and other policy violating behaviors in trying to improve our coverage is a serious issue. I am very interested in Jimbo's thoughts on how we can fix things or if he supports the current course of action to sweep them under the rug and hope we don't get caught as that would only add to our embarassment. ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:50, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Sam Blacketer resigned, which is enough I think. CoM, you and others will not be allowed to slander that man by writing an unbalanced biography of him in mainspace. Mainspace is not for punishing people. The community has approved my approach to this problem by confirming the deletion at WP:DRV. Jehochman ^Talk 09:22, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I didn't write his article, nor have I ever edited it. But the abusive threats and intimidation attempted by you, Jehochman, as highlighted in the related ANI discussionare very unbecoming. Let's stop this attempted cover-up. It stinks at least as badly as the subterfuge and violations that created this mess in the first place. Stop blaming good faith editors who want to maintain Wikipedia's integrity and root out this kind of rot. We need to promote transparency and accountability instead of an old boy buddy system where we create and edit articles based on our personal interests and alliances. ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:36, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Still need help

User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 47#Please help I know you're very busy, and I'm guessing the thread was archived by a bot before you could render a judgement, but to sum up in case you need a quick refresher:

I've always used all pertinant information from what we consider reliable sources in my edits. Articles about Scientology feature in depth coverage of its negative aspects. We would have to ignore the bulk of what the sources say about Scientology if we set out not to say anything "bad" about it. For example a Time article called The Thriving Cult of Greed and Power obviously is going to say things Scientologists don't like, and might just make anyone citing it look anti-Scientology. (Another more current example is the debate in France over banning Scientology) If there are reliable sources out there which say good things about Scientology I'm just as happy to include them as well. (I haven't found any which AREN'T dominated by negative aspects though.)

I think the ARBCOM believes that by topic banning anyone labelled a POV pusher it will somehow end any future arguments. However as long as the sources concentrate on the negatives of Scientology, Scientologists editing from home will work at removing them and calling anyone who cites them a POV pusher. I'm agnostic and have no personal interest in defaming Scientology, I just think our articles should reflect what valid sources say good or bad. Anynobody(?) 02:36, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I am aware of your appeal and will comment in due course. I've been reading over all the case materials (and there's a lot of it, as you know) and also discussing some general principles with the ArbCom to make sure I understand their thinking.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:46, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Cash for spam

Did you get my email about a functionary using an undisclosed sock to edit for money on behalf of businessmen? YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 02:56, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Sorry about that, just checked my email. I mistakenly thought you weren't interested YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 03:39, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

No problem. I answered immediately upon seeing your email. I asked you what you were talking about. I still don't know, and I don't see an email back from you. Can you explain here, or in email if that's more comfortable for you? I see no reason to be mysterious.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:31, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I replied to the arbcom mailing list (I guess you're still on it) at around 4 UTC/GMT/Wikipedia time yesterday and Roger sent me an email confirming that he approved of the receipt [retired arbs might be vandals I suppose]. As for the explanation, Alex Bakharev has outed Nichalp anyway so there isn't anymore to say below that I didn't already say in the email. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 01:03, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Everything that is out in the open (here or on WR) is already on the arbcom mailing list. Obviously I have not much idea what the current arbs are saying about it on there as I haven't been part of the replies YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 01:07, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

If this is related to [2], then I think the matter is serious and should be investigated Alex Bakharev (talk) 05:54, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Somewhat related is this case where a (now blocked) editor complains about their efforts being reverted because the editor's client "has paid for the work, and yet is not listed in Wikipedia, and is understandably upset". Johnuniq (talk) 10:19, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

See also Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Smkovalinsky/Archive. I do not recall ever seeing Jimbo process any routine checkuser requests. Jehochman ^Talk 10:54, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Given how this seems to be coming up more and more there should be a community discussion (RFC?) on the whys and hows behind this and to come up with a community-endorsed stance on this. I think I'll draft up an RFC. Since "paid editing" in and of itself is not a blockable offense, and may or may not be frowned upon depending on how it's handled. Frowned upon = widely, I know some people are totally against some, some don't care, and I'm in the middle of I don't care why someone writes a "good article", so long as they understand the minute it's posted they have no ownership stake or claim over it on this site. rootology (C)(T) 17:48, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

"If you need a good profile on Wikipedia, I can help you out there too through my rich experience" (bolding mine) Yeah, okay, blue sky helicopters pushing the envelope taking a greenfield view.... No chance in the real world with that. Best ignored IMHO - I disagree with Alex above that the matter is "serious" - so what? People can do what they like (mostly) off wiki unless it harms wikipedia - this doesn't, although it makes that particular person look a littel foolish. Looking silly is not, as yet, against policy. Pedro :  Chat  21:09, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

More than a little foolish - it looks, on first glance, to be an unethical offer. But who is this, on-wiki?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:31, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

What's unethical is that they can't sell anything more than what any policy abiding editor can do, However, policy-abiding time and experience might have value in a free market, which seems ok to me. The worry is, most of the stuff I've seen done for money here was very NN. Gwen Gale (talk) 21:39, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Actually it's very easy to make POV violations and get away with it. They're everywhere, including on some FAs. I'm keeping my mouth shut there, because otherwise I wouldn't be able to close the specific articles if and when they land at FAR. On many topics, nobody cares or knows about it except the author. You can find a citation for almost any opinion, so just because something's sourced doesn't mean anything, just pick sources from one's preferred POV-spectrum and ignore everything else. In some country topics, almost all the history articles are POV and everyone uses inflammatory language like freedom fighters and martyrs. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 01:36, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

They could be bluffing, or this could be a Joe Job. Unless there is technical evidence connecting a functionary to sock puppets, I don't think there's much to go on. Jehochman ^Talk 22:59, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

see this post + thread over at wikipedia review for rather compelling information. To answer Jimbo's question, it seems this relates to User:Nichalp and User:Zithan. Privatemusings (talk) 00:37, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

oh, and a nutshell explanation probably won't hurt - User:Nichalp has various priviledges including oversight, and crat 'flags', and would have appeared to ressurect himself following retirment as User:Zithan, who would appear to be getting paid for some editing, such as at Brad_Sugars. The ins, outs, rights and wrongs of all this aren't super clear at the mo.... Privatemusings (talk) 00:42, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Zithan was active long before Nichalp retired YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 01:11, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

he was indeed, mea culpa - for what it's worth, User:Zithan's early edits appear to be related to sex toys and pornography, and in the ever shifting world of wiki-rules-about-sockpuppets I'm not sure if having a designated account for kinda embarrassing edits is smiled or frowned upon. It wouldn't be particularly shocking either for Zithan to have been a commercial account from inception. It may be that a policy requiring explicit disclosure of financial interests in the subject of articles editors are working on might be useful at this point, it seems it's not self-evidently sensible to all? (and yeah - I'll copy this to the RfC thingy too... why not....) Privatemusings (talk) 04:38, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Paid Editing, related to the above "Cash for spam"

This is overdue, probably: Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Paid Editing. Given that this (and related WP:COI issues) seem to be coming up more and more, I've launched this basic RFC. We've never had an actual community discussion or mandate about this. Please review the statements, leave yours, endorse as you see fit. Should make for an interesting and enlightening discussion.

Jimmy, would you be willing to leave a statement on the RFC itself? rootology (C)(T) 19:31, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I am content to watch, right now. I don't agree with the biased way the question is being presented. I think it would be a serious blow to the credibility of Wikipedia if it came to be generally accepted that people are taking on clients to write on their behalf. I am reminded of when Yahoo - disastrously, in my opinion - started charging people for premium submissions into their editing process for their directory. Allegedly, as I recall, these entries were to be judged by staff in the same way as unpaid submission, they just moved to the front of the line. But the perception of impropriety essentially destroyed the image of Yahoo as an impartial editorial board deciding what links belonged in which category. I think that far from *weakining* COI policy, we should be in the process of *strengthening* it. I will continue to block people who I find to be engaging in this sort of conduct.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:36, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

In which case I honestly think you should say so on the RFC. At the moment we have no policy against paid editing – which is precisely why the whole MyWikiBiz thing flared up, as Kohs could fairly say that nobody had told him not to. It's been three years since then; we really ought to have a policy one way or the other. – iridescent 21:40, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

My humble 2 pence: I don't think there should be a policy against paid editing by policy-abiding individuals, but if the WmF ever cooked up some paid "fast track" it would very likely (and quickly) wind up a big, corrupted mess and hurt the project. Gwen Gale (talk) 21:43, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

If you intend to block people for it, you had better try and establish a consensus to do so. That's what this RFC is for. --Tango (talk) 01:50, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. But, er, what is biased about:

"An RFC on the notion of paid editing. NOTE: Today, as of the launch time of this RFC, this is not a blockable offense under any policy, or to my knowledge against any explicit policy, but dances around WP:COI in some ways."

And

Whats the question?

Is Paid Editing a problem? Is it fine? Is it against policy? What policy? What should be the response?

Desired outcome

A start toward consensus on what the community view actually is on the matter of "paid editing".

Since there is no policy against it today I left the wording as wide-open as possible. "What do you think?" is the tone. I'd actually ask you to not do such blocks, as you're still of course bound by policy as much as anyone. Your recent block of Petrosianii was for sockpuppetry, not paid editing. Seicer (talk · contribs), an admin, actually stated here that he is paid to edit content. Are you going to block him? Such a block would have no basis in policy and out of policy blocks have no standing, for any admin. rootology (C)(T) 21:45, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Can you please clarify on your question are you saying that only users can do paid editing or also saying Admins and crats can also do paid editing.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 08:36, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Admins are users too. So are 'crats, I hear, although rumor has it some have their doubts. ++Lar: t/c 11:25, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I think a not small number of people have those doubts re. admins as well. Unfortunately some admins do their best to enforce those doubts... SoWhy 11:35, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Only to stir up some thoughts, perhaps one way to deal with this, would be a policy that editors in positions of trust (admin, crat and so on) disclose any paid editing. Maybe this could be done on-wiki, or even by email, say to arbcom. I will say that an outright banning of paid editing wouldn't stop it, but only drive it further underground. Gwen Gale (talk) 11:40, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Driving it underground is sufficient. What I don't want to see are people advertising their services to clients on the web, and us accepting that. This is totally inconsistent with our values. I will never allow it.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:10, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Are you referring to editors in positions of trust or to all users? -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 15:25, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

All editors. If someone wants to set up a GFDL (or, soon: CC BY or CC BY-SA) writing service somewhere else, and post things there, and if completely uninvolved Wikipedians find it in some way useful, that's fine. Setting up shop to "sell" services as an advocate on Wikipedia as an editor, an admin, etc. is not ok.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:29, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Great! I totally agree with you. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 15:40, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Ok, it's "advocate" rather/more than "writing service" that you find worrisome and I can understand that. Your notion of free market GFDL/CC writing services which show up in Google searches that uninvolved WP editors would stumble across, then perhaps pick up for Wikipedia, owing only to skillfull encyclopedic writing and sourcing, is helpful, I should've thought of it! WP would have aught to do with it from the outset, with a bright line of "neutrality through uninvolvment." I guess if any paid writing which goes straight onto Wikipedia is driven so underground, it's not spotted, that'd more often than not be because policy was followed closely enough, which is the pith. Either way, I'd never support writing for pay which didn't heedfully follow policy. Thanks for giving your thoughts on this. Gwen Gale (talk) 16:27, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Where do I go to find these "completely independent wikipedians" referenced? We all have CoIs, every day, and to think differently is to fool ones self. Disclosing CoI is to be encouraged. ++Lar: t/c 16:22, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

(ec x2) I am frequently maligned and subject to assumptions of bad faith because of the way I make a living.[3][4] Such personal attacks should be denounced, but they never are. Based on my experience, there are more people willing to use a declaration as a way to gain the upper hand in a dispute than there are those who will respect it. This is a problem with our culture. Jehochman ^Talk 16:32, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

It is not helpful to air grievances on Jimbo's talk page in lieu of dialog with the people who posted them. Durova^Charge! 18:16, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I am just about ready to quit because a certain person has been following me around, setting tripwires and doing whatever she can to ruin my enjoyment of working on Wikipedia. Durova, please stop posting complaints about me hither and thither, and please stop egging on other people to do so. I really mean it. Jehochman ^Talk 18:26, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Paid editing users unblocked

Jimmy, I really don't mean this to be a dickish question, but the way this is unraveling is highly confusing. I started the RFC to simply see what everyone thought, as there has never been a frank public discussion of this before to see what the community actually thought. Your views have always been clear. Like I said in my RFC statement, I've always been ambivalent and more interested in the quality of the content rather than caring who wrote it--a paid author, Satan, it's all the same for me. Is it good, NPOV, notable, etc.? The way the RFC is spinning out is frankly the exact opposite of what I expected. I was figuring I'd get some supports, we'd see 20 statements in various forms "against", and that would be that. Not what is happening, but the opposite.

But I have to ask-- are you going to block Seicer and Nichalp for paid editing? rootology (C)(T) 16:10, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't know the particulars of those cases, so it is best that I not wade in hastily. I've been mistaken to block people in similar situations too quickly in the past. But if they are editing articles or (worse) taking admin actions at the behest of clients, they should at a bare minimum stop doing so. Perhaps it would be best if they explained what they've been up to and why.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:25, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Just to be clear, if someone was using any special tools, even something as piddly as Rollback for money, let alone something like Oversight, I'd be first in line to skin them myself. My only stance is that I'm about the quality of content first and foremost. I'll drop Nichalp and Seicer notes to check in here. rootology (C)(T) 16:29, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Also are the people covered under this program going to be blocked? ++Lar: t/c 16:22, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't have an opinion about that. But please don't imagine that my position is simplistic. There's a very big difference between an organized grant program to improve the quality of Wikipedia and setting up shop to offer to act as a paid advocate.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:25, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

So you won't be blocking the two above-mentioned editors? Skinny87 (talk) 16:30, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I am expressing no opinion whatsoever on that. I'm just saying I don't really know anything about what they are doing. If they are doing something wrong, they should be blocked. If they are not doing something wrong, they should not be blocked. I'm not doing anything myself, but I don't consider myself under any inherent obligation to investigate every single case. As I am sure you can understand, whatever action I take or don't take here will be construed dishonestly by someone. If I block them, I'm acting hastily and so on. If I don't block them, then the trolls will claim it's because I'm friends with them (I'm not, don't know them really) or whatever. So I want to be really clear here: I don't know enough to do anything, and it isn't my job to police everything on Wikipedia. Anyone trying to interpret my action or inaction here is making a mistake.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:36, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

To be fair, you made a relatively strong WP:JIMBO statement when you said, "I will personally block any cases that I am shown. There are of course some possibly interesting alternatives, not particularly relevant here, but the idea that we should ever accept paid advocates directly editing Wikipedia is not every going to be ok. Consider this to be policy as of right now." -->David Shankbone 16:45, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Which I am as of now contesting. See the comments section on his RFC post. I think this is a silly thing to fight about, to be frank, but proclamations of policy that have no community backing have no standing. Who's going to enforce them? If it goes all the way up to Steward tools to enforce them, then Jimmy loses that battle too, since Stewards have limits on what they can do too. This is a stupid battle to fight on these lines. It's ultimately up to the community. rootology (C)(T) 16:47, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm not interesting in "fighting the battle" on those lines, because it's completely unnecessary for me to do so. I consider it to be absolutely within policy already. Some people like to imagine that "the community" is absolutely sovereign, but it is not, has never been, and never will be. Wikipedia is not a democracy, as existing policy has long made abundantly clear. But trying to portray this as an issue of a community clamoring to allow paid shills to openly do battle in wikipedia versus Jimbo trying to stop it is pretty hilariously out of tune with the real discussion. You wrote an openly biased RFC that led people down a certain path - I consider this pretty pointless.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:57, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

It's not a democracy, no, and never has been, but for several years now it hasn't been your word-as-law either. If it was, you would have done any number of things we needed by fiat already, like Flagged Revs when German got them, laser-sharp enforcement of BLP, mandatory semi-protection of BLPs by default, BLP AFDs defaulting to delete rather than keep, and we would have actually seen people being tossed from the project for rampant abuse of NPOV, which is a Foundational issue, as readily as we toss people for copyright violations. You would have stamped on the neck of the ongoing disasters we've seen like Mantanmoreland and any number of festering sores everyone has had to deal with, and not just label anyone that goes against your views as "trolls" and whatnot, dismissing critics out of hand, even the critics who have--surprise--turned out to be right on some matters. If you want to try to force this, against whatever consensus forms--and again, I don't care either way in the end if we block paid editors or put them in a manageable bubble to get content out of them--you're welcome to try with the standing repercussions you may encounter. This isn't a threat, so don't take it that way, but this will end up in RFAR if you try to force your hand against the community on something they don't want. Your power is not absolute. You have a bigger box than most, but you still live within a box as much as we do. I don't really have anything else to say beyond we need you for your leverage on the bigger things, and to draw in contributions financially, but your unwillingness to stand up with a firm hand when you've been needed on the really critical things makes this seem a truly pointless matter to risk your standing and "Traditional Role" on. You don't own WP. rootology (C)(T) 17:12, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your rant, Rootology. Let me summarize it. You want me to act decisively and with great authority in some areas, the ones you care about and think I should, but intend to fight to depose me if I do it in other areas, the ones where your views differ. Noted. I will protest a bit with this strange and false claim that I "just label anyone who goes against my views as 'trolls'". Some people are trolls, of course, but I think it's hardly fair to suggest that I overuse the term to apply to anyone who disagrees with me.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:26, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Until WP:JIMBO is repealed, WP:JIMBO stands. -->David Shankbone 17:22, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

That's sort of the point of this discussion, David. rootology (C)(T) 17:22, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I would caution you against taking the paid editing issue and conflating it with JIMBO issues. If Jimmy takes an action that contradicts community consensus, then it's an issue. Until then, a lot of this discussion seems to be moving into the legitimacy of the JIMBO system. Too many hot issues at once. -->David Shankbone 17:26, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

And I agree, but Fayasslf and Jimmy have pushed this into the JIMBO side. I've been arguing nonstop on this in the past day that the decision with community backing would be as bulletproof as policy can ever be. Jimmy, though, has repeatedly stated his stance as policy, and I am saying point blank that today he cannot unilaterally impose a binding fiat on something without community backing, in response. I didn't push this into constitutional waters; he did regrettably. rootology (C)(T) 17:29, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

• To be fair Root. Neither me nor Jimmy has mentioned WP:JIMBO. I spoke the policy lingo while he didn't even mention it. Wikipedia has been here for more than 8 years and claiming that you got a consensus in 12 hours is very misleading. And Jimmy has just stood up with a firm hand while dealing with a critical thing; it just happens that it doesn't suit your views.-- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 18:14, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

• I never claimed consensus; I've just pounding on that on such a hot-topic item, we shouldn't do anything without a mandate that as many people as possible buy into, since whatever happens will have lasting repercussions in multiple directions. Citing that policy page is citing JIMBO, if not in name. Jimmy and I are mailing, however, but I still ask that he just not do anything unilaterally here. There are far bigger stakes in play here. Hell, I wasn't even thinking of closing that RFC until over a month out, like the Flagged Revs survey. rootology (C)(T) 18:17, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

• Why don't you write a policy proposal to ban paid advocacy and we can work together to get support for it?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:31, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

• You have mail inbound on this topic to the wikia-inc address. rootology (C)(T) 17:57, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

• I think the more strategic way to handle this is to see what the RFC says. If you have a sense that there is consensus for paid editing, then you have to decide what to do next, if anything. If Jimmy steps in to frustrate the community's wishes, then address the issue. You're allowing yourself to be sidetracked into other hot areas simply because of some comments, that currently have had no effect on anything (just like the RFC itself). Just FYI: I support the JIMBO system, and I'm not advocating you go after it. I'm only suggesting a more strategic and productive way to handle your concerns and issues. -->David Shankbone 17:34, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

• I'm most assuredly not going after "JIMBO" today in that sense, and I'd really rather not force some bloody conflict on something that people are in truth only apart based on the nature and magnitude of the response. I've told him as much in mail, and this looks like both may have gotten puffed out from misunderstanding intentions and long-term goals (which I know from previous conversations with him we're not far apart on, just the "how to get there" bit). I'm too pragmatic for my own good sometimes, and think that "JIMBO Showdown" will eventually happen in some form, some day, but again, I'd really rather not see something like that this year or over something so simple. rootology (C)(T) 18:22, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

(od)That seems like a rather harsh comment against rootology, Mister Wales - I can't see how the RFC was written in a biased manner - hell, it's opening lines were shorter than most RFCs to begin with. Skinny87 (talk) 17:06, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry if it sounded harsh. My main complaint is that he proposes what is clearly an extreme case to set the tone of the discussion. It would be just as biased to propose an extreme case on the opposite end of the spectrum. And the use of the term "paid editing" - as I have said elsewhere - is too imprecise to allow for a nuanced discussion of the issue.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:29, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

It is rather natural that the statement is a bias towards a certain stance, but thats the way its supposed to be as its a user opinion. Every person can judge for himself if a statement is completely bogus. Personally i support both your statement and Rootology statement as i can deduct the danger of "WikiSpam Incorporated, PR Division", while i can also understand the value paid editors could have, provided they stay within policy boundries.

I do agree that "Paid editing" is to broad to form any policy - but isn't that a good thing? A discussion can narrow this down, and at the same time we can be certain we didn't leave any important issues out of consideration. On a different sidenote: Isn't the "Blocking all spam agency's" statement is a bit of a moot policy? I am certain that if an experienced wikipedian created a second account for promotional purposes, his or her knowledge would be sufficient bypass both new page and regular patrols trough creating a quality article with some positive bias. Even if we noice an article is slightly promotional we still need to assume good faith. And lets be honest: If a corporation would be serious about selling these services, it would take a lot more effort to root out then, for example, the average sockpuppet user. Excirial ^{(Contact me,Contribs)} 17:47, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

It's worth remembering that role accounts and sockpuppets are forbidden. Wasn't it MyWikiBiz's use of a role account that led to their banning? Computerjoe's talk 18:37, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Come on Jimbo

[5] First I get banned for BS and now the Taleb article is getting out of hand and has been escalated to WP:Office. Since Taleb has recently been the subject of the Wall Street journal as a potential target of death threats [6] This after no administrator did anything to the perceived harassing editors. NOTHING. But one administrator took time out from their busy, to post a remark on my talk page. Singled me out and then repeatedly blames me for pointing out them being hypocritical in their behavior. The admin blew me off and went back to doing nothing to the opposing editors. This could have been handled by admin without going office. If administrators had followed policy and been fair in the comments and behavior then it could have been handled on the bio talk page. Administrators are still not addressing the abuses of editors on the article harassing the Taleb estate legal rep with comments that they are violating Wikipedia policy by addressing perceived misconduct. No Admin has told the offending editors publicly to stop misusing Wiki policy to end the Taleb estate rep from posting on Wiki. They have instead reported the rep for WP:No legal threat and WP:COI which is reprehensible. This behavior needs to be addressed. Some administrators are too buzy giving knee jerk reaction bans and sarcastic comments to stop behavior that has already been escalated to office. I am requesting an apology and the behavior addressed publicly. If people can post a warning about my comments publicly on my talkpage then their oversights can be correctly publicly to. People's security should matter more then policy. LoveMonkey (talk) 16:39, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

This user has cross posted from WP:ANI. Suggest keeping the conversation together over there. I for one have no idea what this user is talking about. Jehochman ^Talk 16:41, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree, this is not the right place for this at this time.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:44, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Alright Jimbo I'll take it to ANI. LoveMonkey (talk) 17:53, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Paid advocacy in article space and WP:COI

As far as I sm concerned "Paid advocacy in article space" is already against WP:NPOV policy and WP:COI guideline. Jimbo, what changes, if any, would you like to see made to those to make this clear? I would like WP:COI to be made policy and tightened up as (in my opinion) people with conflicts of interest have watered it down. WAS 4.250 (talk) 18:30, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, I agree with you on both counts. I think it needs to be made clearer that "I am getting paid by the subject of the article to edit the article (as opposed to making suggestions in the talk page, writing an article on a different website, etc.)" is paid advocacy of the kind in conflict with policy. That's very different from "I have a job as a professor and we are encouraged to contribute to Wikipedia about things that we know about" or "I am participating in a government funded project to improve the quality of Wikipedia entries". There are many subtleties. I think it's pretty easy to know the difference, and hard to write it down precisely.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:38, 10 June 2009 (UTC)