Talk:Jerusalem

Edit request, 4 October 2011

small request... but could someone fix the missing articles? For example "According to Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics" should read: "According to *the* Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics"... "occupation of City of David" should read "occupation of the City of David." I know some Semitic languages don't use articles the same way English does, maybe that's why it reads like this... minor edit I know, just a bit irritating to a native-speaker. Would fix it myself but not sure I can when the page is semi-protected.

 Done Hertz1888 (talk) 09:34, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

the real Jerusalem Discovered...

there is a real jerusalem , also a new jerusalem Solomon built...the ancient maps ..say that one is at one end of the kingdom..and the other is at the other end..David streched out and made israel bigger..and so did Solomon ..so the truth is it is not in the middle east...period...van buren,mo is the site of old Jerusalem...and look out mountain , Tenn is the new Jerusalem...rock city is the house Solomon lived in..we have established all the details ...period even found where David lived for seven yrs before taking jerusalem ..that is coffee county , Tenn...if you would like to see the evidence ..then goggle me Troy T. Dickerson ..and follow the trail to the forum..that shows the details , as well as the youtube site ...: ancient cartography channel....no theory in a map — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.73.112.24 (talk) 14:49, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

---

Or in verse:

Jerusalem of the Mind
by Troy Dickerson (Ravpapa editing)

there is a real jerusalem, also a new.
Solomon built... ancient maps drew:
Real one end of the kingdom... the other new.
David stretched and Israel grew
and Solomon, he, too.

So the truth: is it not in the Middle East? I see
Van Buren, Missouri, Lookout Mountain, Tennessee:
The old to wind, the new alee.
Rock City the house of Solomon,
And David for seven years in Coffee County.

No theory in a map.

---

--Ravpapa (talk) 15:49, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

CITY OF DAVID

the real jerusalem is the " city of david " that located south-east from the walls of today. jewish cities are built in a shape of a human foot. פארוק (talk) 17:09, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

"In Christianity, Jerusalem has been a holy city since, according to the New Testament, Jesus was crucified in c. 30 CE...."

Remove "according to the New Testament" from "In Christianity, Jerusalem has been a holy city since, according to the New Testament, Jesus was crucified in c. 30 CE...," since Christ's crucifixion is attested by outside sources, i.e., Josephus and Tacitus.

According to John Dominic Crossan, "Jesus’ death by crucifixion under Pontius Pilate is as sure as anything historical can ever be. For if no follower of Jesus had written anything for one hundred years after his crucifixition, we would still know about him from two authors not among his supporters. Their names are Flavius Josephus and Cornelius Tacitus." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Litteratusnovus (talk • contribs) 14:45, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

What's the problem with this edit?

Discussion copied from User_talk:Sean.hoyland about map edit reverts on this page.

What's the problem with this edit? It shows where Jerusalem is in both Israel and the Palestinian territories, Syria doesn't claim to own Jerusalem therefore the Golan Height shouldn't be there so it's the perfect map with NPOV since it shows both israel and the west bank-- Someone35  17:24, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

The problem is that the map can be viewed as claiming the entire area "from the river to the sea" as being one state. It isnt, and Jerusalem is not in Mandate Palestine. nableezy - 17:26, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

What Nableezy said. However, I do agree that the street map needs replacing...but with a contemporary map. Sean.hoyland - talk 17:33, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

The map used currently is up to date and properly licensed. However, using a contemporary map of some country would open a can of worms: "we want map of Palestine" from other side "No, we want map of Israel" . In no time we have demonstrations of protestors and Occupy Movement, there are tents all around and the police is using a Pepper Spray... The map claims stuff, like oh my God, people get excited ;) from other hand I am stuffed with Turkey and gravy and got myself a huge TV screen on Black Friday. Still not sure why Thanksgiving article talks about scare quotes "Pilgrims" and not a proper and NPOV compliant "Foreign Invaders". Still, I can not open a Casino, unless I move to Nevada, so probably I am not a "native"... So?... Whatever... AgadaUrbanit (talk) 18:12, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

I was trying to be unnaturally wrong...damn it. Surely it's possible, in principal, to find a map that shows Israel with a nice green line around it and the Palestinian territories and for us to put a big red dot on it vaguely where Jerusalem is ? Sean.hoyland - talk 18:25, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

An interesting idea, have not we tried it? My solution is to call this map "Israel + Occupied territories" instead of just "Israel", so people would not get that excited. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 18:47, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

I hope this one calms things down. -MichaelNetzer (talk) 18:57, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Not even that, I see. Sheesh. -MichaelNetzer (talk) 19:01, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

I guess you were referring to the map that I just reverted. You changed it to "Israel" ... how do you think that would calm things down? -asad (talk) 19:01, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Because the previous map didn't have the West Bank, Gaza and Golan marked. This one did and placed Jerusalem on the border where it is. But I see that's not enough because the map name is Israel. Alright. Maybe I'll take Agada's lead and make a version called Israel and Occuppied Palestine. Would that solve the problem? We need a map to show where it's located, not a street map. -MichaelNetzer (talk) 19:07, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Sean, I think from your comment you'd agree with the map I used that has all the territories marked, and can revert it again. It's become a little ridiculous and doesn't need so much tension. -MichaelNetzer (talk) 19:15, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

The problem with that map is that it is showing East Jerusalem as a separate entity than the West Bank. It also is marking administrative districts of Israel and not the West Bank (which I guess that is why the map is called "Israel" to begin with). I know it is not a subject of discussion now, but it also does not show the international border between Syria and Israel in the Golan. It also gives the same color to the Golan Heights as it does to the West Bank and Gaza. -asad (talk) 19:16, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

All this (or the intelligible parts) belongs on the article talk page. Sean's user talk is not where content in an article is decided. nableezy - 19:18, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

I love your sense of humor, Nab, but you didn't have a problem commenting on it before. As the situation stands today, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. The map isn't meant to be a referendum on international agreement to it. It's a map of Israel and that's what it looks like. Everyone recognizes that this is Israel's map regardless of whether they agree with it. We're not here to fight that war, you know. It's current information, that's all. -MichaelNetzer (talk) 19:26, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

I answered a single question about why a single edit was wrong. I have some thoughts on what you think of the situation as it stands today (for example, as it stands today East Jerusalem is internationally recognized as being Palestinian territory held under Israeli occupation and illegally annexed (effectively) by Israel, and likewise the declared capital of Palestine), but again this belongs on an article talk page. Not Sean's user talk page. nableezy - 19:30, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Everything you say is true and it says so in the body of the article without any reserve whatsoever. The article also explains Israel's position on it, that you agree is Israel's position, which you also don't agree with. That's all fine. So if the article explains everything and explains why a map of Israel looks this way, why does the map have to do hoolahoops around everybody? It's only a map, for heaven's sake. Please try to be a little more... you know, Nab... a team player. --MichaelNetzer (talk)

Are you not interested in continuing this on the article's talk page? You keep bringing up points that could be addressed, but this is not the right place to do it. -asad (talk) 19:55, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Is there a reason why an encyclopedia article should present the minority view that Jerusalem is "in Israel" as opposed to having much of it in the Palestinian territories? Is there a reason why a map of Israel should be used instead of, oh, this one? And finally, is there a reason why you are so insistent on not discussing article content at, you know, the article's talk page? nableezy - 19:55, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes there is a very good reason. Because the map isn't about minority or majority views. It's about the present state of Jerusalem, which is in Israel and under Israeli jurisdiction until further notice. So a map of a country's capital goes by the country currently presiding over the city. When that changes and we reach an agreement about Jerusalem, we'll change the map. A map is a location, not a political statement. I'm also not insistent on discussing this here but I think that we'd need to also move most of the previous discussion there if we don't want to repeat ourselves. If we're all willing to agree about what parts of this discussion to move, a little better than we're able to agree about other things, that would be nice. But I don't see Sean complaining. Yet. I wouldn't. -MichaelNetzer (talk) 20:09, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

What nonsense, of course maps are political statements. The boundaries they create are political, and the names they use are political, and the location of both is political. That is why a majority of Israeli teenagers are unable to identify the Green Line, because the makers of their text books have made the conscious political decision to remove it from the map. Sorry to burst your bubble, but some states recognize no Israeli sovereignty over any part of Jerusalem, and nearly the entire world recognizes no such sovereignty over East Jerusalem. These blanket statements like is in Israel or is Israel's capital in which you present a POV, a minority one at that, as though it were a fact is part of the problem here. You think that Jerusalem is in Israel, the end. And so you think that the map in the Jerusalem article should be one of Israel. However, the view that Jerusalem is in Israel is not a fact, it isnt even a majority POV. Hell, unless you define what is "Jerusalem" it doesn't even mean anything. What "Jerusalem" is in Israel? The area west of the Green Line? Because the United Kingdom still considers that to be part of the corpus seperatum. The Temple Mount? The rest of East Jerusalem? Why is it that you do not see that you are in fact making a political statement by placing a map of Israel in an article on a place where much of what it discusses is not in Israel? East Jerusalem is not in Israel, that is what the overwhelming majority of sources say. Western Jerusalem may be, or it may not be, depending on the source. But claiming that "Jerusalem is in Israel", through text or through the use of a map, is a political statement, and I cannot believe that anybody can honestly claim otherwise. nableezy - 20:41, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

I wish you'd be nice and not say things like "what nonsense" and then try to educate me and go off into things that have nothing to do with the map except for being forced into it to make a political statement. I think I'm trying not to do that with you and just talking about the relevance of the map. A map of Ramallah puts it into Palestinian territory because that's the jurisdiction it's under. It's not about how many people agree with that or how many don't. It's the current situation of the city and that's all. Period. This isn't about your beliefs against mine, because frankly, and believe me, I know what I think about it and I know how you feel, and neither one of us is going to change the other, so why bother? The only purpose you serve is to let off steam for yourself. Which is alright with me. But if it interferes with our being able to work together here, and it makes a mess of Wikipedia, then maybe you and I should meet somewhere and settle all this over a beer or cup of coffee on a beach somewhere, and we can then come back here without all the extra baggage. I'm here because I like this project and like what it stands for, even though I sometimes have opinions that don't always mesh with it. I'll respect that and I let the project be what it is because it's not about what I think. With you, I feel that your politics are the end all of everything you do here and you make little effort to understand that the project is a lot more collective. So, whatever. I wont't argue politics with you. It's not what I'm here for. And you know, Nab. I think you'd get a lot more done if you let things go and think about the whole package beyond your angst on the situation. I think you'll feel better and won't need to bring the loaded emotions into every edit. And I think we'd all be able to work together and maybe even serve as a model for being able to solve conflicts. Maybe it's too much to ask, but dammit, I know there's a person in you that understands what I'm saying. -MichaelNetzer (talk) 21:27, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

My use of the word "nonsense" was limited to the claim that a map is not a political statement. I dont see a response to my comment on that point. If you would like to discuss my supposed angst or what you think you know about my feelings there is a place for that. It isnt here. Using a map of Israel for a place that is largely not in Israel is a political statement. It pushes a minority POV as though it were a fact. That is a violation of WP:NPOV, a core, non-negotiable, policy of this website. Ill respond to one claim you made here, that [my] politics are the end all of everything [I] do here and [I] make little effort to understand that the project is a lot more collective. I dont think I have placed a map of Palestine with alt text that says Jerusalem is in Palestine in the article. I dont think I have attempted to make [my] politics be displayed as though they were facts in the article. It is you who placed a map of Israel with alt text that Jerusalem is in Israel in an article on a place that is largely not in Israel. Kindly look in the mirror when you start pontificating about others attempting to force their politics into articles. Any further comments about me personally here will not be responded to, I have a user talk page that you are welcome to use. This is an article talk page, please remember that. nableezy - 21:41, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

See, that's what I mean. If you would have said "Look Mike, I understand what you're saying about the fact that Jerusalem is currently under Israeli jurisdiction and so that places it currently in Israel for purposes of the map, but a lot of RS sources and myself don't acknowledge Israel's sovereignty over it so we don't want to say that Jerusalem is in Israel, even if it currently is, and certainly not even in a map", then I'd say, "well, at least he understands me". But instead you're not even considering what I'm saying and rather turning it into a POV issue when I'm not stating an opinion. You want me to respond to you and I always do, but you rarely give the impression you even thought about anything I said. Now, if you remember above, I didn't do that with you. I said clearly that I understood what you're saying but the placement in the map isn't about who recognizes Israel and who doesn't. All I'm hoping for here is the same type of understanding in return and not pointed accusations as if you hold some greater fact or truth than I do because you're armed with millions of sources. And for all the RS out there, Jerusalem at the present time is located in Israel. Go to East Jerusalem and ask everyone what country their ID cards say they live in and where they get their electricity and water and they'll tell you. Neither my opinion nor yours counts here as much as a reality on the ground. Based on what you're saying none of the maps of Israel are acceptable in Wikipedia anyway, which you must agree is stretching things a little. Take a look at other encyclopedias and notice they leave the issue of sovereignty for the text and use proper maps of the current boundaries on the ground to show places. It's not a POV issue at all. It only serves a purpose for recognizable placement. There's a limit to how much we should be splitting hairs like this and making articles look unprofessional. Having a street map of Jerusalem in that spot looking so silly should be a concern for everyone and shouldn't be turned into a political match. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 03:38, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

I rarely give the impression that I have thought about what you said? I give that impression when I quote what you say and respond to the points? What does Jerusalem at the present time is located in Israel mean? What does in Israel mean? Does it mean in the territory that Israel holds under occupation? Or does it mean the territory recognized as Israeli territory be nearly every country on the planet? This isnt about who recognizes Israel and who doesn't, and the fact that you take my comments as being in any way related makes me, well, that you havent even thought about anything I said. What does it mean for a place to be in Israel? Because much of what this article covers is a place that is outside of the boundary that separates what is in Israel and what is in the Israel-occupied territories. Like it or not, that boundary is real, and this tactic of repeating the same POV as though it were a fact that Jerusalem at the present time is located in Israel does not change that. East Jerusalem is in the Palestinian territories. It is held under occupation by Israel. It is not in Israel, no matter how many times you repeat the line. Unless you define Israel to include the Israeli-occupied territories then East Jerusalem is not in Israel. If you cant understand why it is a political statement, a rather fringe sized one comparatively speaking, to say that Jerusalem is in Israel then I dont know what else to say. nableezy - 06:04, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

You quote me and then go on to add irrelevant baggage from your political crusade to what I said. Jerusalem is effectively in Israel because it is administered by Israel and it is not yet divided, the way you want the map to show. East Jerusalem is not administered by the PA or a Palestinian government. The geographic placement of Jerusalem in Israel is appropriately relative to its administration because that's how geographic locations of cities are defined, by areas of administration. They are not defined by disputes over borders nor by the excess political explanations you add to what I said. All you say is political information that is already covered in the body of the article itself extensively. You are contaminating Wikipedia with your irrelevant political crusades, as you do in this article. You go around Wikipedia and contaminate it with excessive disparaging of Israel, armed with countless sources who disagree with its position, and now you've come to contaminate the page on Jerusalem with your comments above, which have nothing to do with the geographical location of Jerusalem relative to its administration, that the map is about.

Your irrelevant political crusade is so extremely one sided that it should cast doubt on your ability to remain neutral. You don't consider that the reason Jerusalem is divided is because the Palestinians refuse to end the conflict even though Israel concedes all the territories it captured in 1967, with mutually agreed upon adjustments, as the UN Quartet and most of the world agree to being a fair solution. You don't consider that the official reason East Jerusalem is not yet administered by the Palestinians within an independent state, is the nearly racist Palestinian demand of removing Jews from their homes because there are places in the world where Jews should not be allowed to live. You don't consider the inhumane Palesinian demands for restrictions on, and dismantlement of settlements. You don't consider their refusal to recognize Israel as a Jewish state, when they have no problem with Arab countries being recognized as Arab Muslim states by the entire world, is the reason they give for refusing to end the conflict. You don't consider that it is the violent culture of the Arab/Muslim world, prominent everywhere, that is aggravating inevitable Palestinian independence. You never openly considered that Israel is doing everything it can to overcome and correct this self-destructive violent nature in the Arab world and forge a Palestinian state. You never once noted that it is mainly to Israel's credit that the Palestinians are flourishing in East Jerusalem and the West Bank, and that they may soon be able to administer an independent state there altogether.

You don't consider any of this and yet you dare come here to contaminate Wikepedia and the page on Jerusalem with your extremely one-sided political crusade against Israel, that's irrelevant to specific encyclopedia content and irrelevant to this map. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 09:30, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Irrelevant baggage? Really? Where did I say that EJ is "administered" by the PNA? And how does it being "administered" by Israel make it in Israel? How do you still not understand this? EJ is not in Israel, it is in the occupied Palestinian territories. Your imagination on Israel doing everything it can to overcome and correct this self-destructive violent culture of the Arab/Muslim world is not what interests me, but I do find it stunningly hilarious that you make that statement and at the same time say that I am on a political crusade, when it is you claiming occupied territory as being in Israel and demanding that the language of the occupier be imposed upon the land of the occupied. The use of the word crusade is also quite charming, as its original use was that of European invaders slaughtering Arab Muslims in Jerusalem. That you then call a demand for the dismantlement of illegal Jewish only colonies in occupied territory nearly racist and inhumane is likewise extremely charming. That you then invent that Israel has agreed to withdraw from the occupied territories with "mutually agreed upon adjustments" is not so much charming as it is a complete fabrication. You have to understand something; I am not interested in the absurd claims of a settler. I am interested in what the sources say, and they say that East Jerusalem is occupied Palestinian territory and that it is not in Israel. Kindly leave your ranting for your blog, I have no intention of letting you draw me into an argument over whatever nonsense comes out of your fingers. I dont care what you think about the violent culture of the Arab/Muslim world, or the almost racist and inhumane Palestinian demands, or what you think is a political crusade. Kindly refrain from such comments in the future. This is not a forum or your personal blog, this is a talk page for an encyclopedia article. I thank you in advance. As far as the one thing worth responding to in your comment, the geographical location of Jerusalem is straddling the Green Line, which separates what is in Israel and what is in the Palestinian territories. This really is not that difficult to understand. nableezy - 14:19, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

What is difficult to understand about a city's geographical location being relative to its administrative area? Why must you wave your select RS sources, crafted to wage a political crusade, on this poor map that has nothing to do with the politics? --MichaelNetzer (talk) 18:04, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Again, the geographical location is in Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories. You seem to want to ignore that a large portion of the city is in the occupied Palestinian territories and reduce the issue to it simply being in Israel. That you still cannot understand that this is in fact highly political leaves me baffled. nableezy - 18:56, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Using the word 'political crusade' several times to describe an insistence that the legal situation as delineated in RS be duly represented is a WP:AGF violation, and a form of attack. Editors are neutral in so far as they cleave honesty to what the best RS say of any situation, which is that the status of Jerusalem in international law is as Nableezy says it is. So, lay off the attack language please.Nishidani (talk) 09:57, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

It is not attack language. It is a proper statement on an edit revert and the reasons an editor gives for it. A million RS's are irrelevant to the revert on the map. In this case, and many others, they are merely weapons for a political crusade. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 11:07, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Of course it is, especially given the meaning of the word crusade and how that word is viewed among Arabs, despite our violent culture. nableezy - 14:19, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Oh please. I drew Batman comics for nearly two decades and had the words "Caped Crusader" in them countless times. I don't ever remember anyone complaining about the term, including Arabs. I use it here in the context of the word itself, not the "Crusades". It is you who insists on twisting everything in these discussions to wage political battles specifically intended to disparage Israel. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 18:04, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

No. One cannot use that word in these contexts without conjuring up the use of the word endorsed by George Bush in early 2003. This is a matter of linguistic and cultural tact. Words innocent in our youth take on colour as history alters them. You cannot use 'a final solution' for a detective novel of Conan Doyle's without conjuring up Die Endlösung. And, for the nth time, please stop, by your use of provocative caricature of your interlocutors' views, trying to turn arguments you disagree with into badfaith innuendoes about those who make them, which is what your gross, and indeed reportable, negative characterizations of 'Arabs' and 'Palestinians' amount to. It does not work on wikipedia, except if those who read these remarks turn them inside out to look at the attitude projected, as through a glass, darkly.Nishidani (talk) 18:28, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

You should have thought of all that before you brought "'colonizers', 'thieves', 'under belligerent occupation'. These are the Palestinian POV-equivalents of 'Judea and Samaria'" into the fray. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 01:27, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

under belligerent occupation is not a Palestinian POV. nableezy - 02:10, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Oh, really now, Nableezy. No need to cast aspersions on Nishidani's perceptive judgement based on "reliable source". If he believes that "Judea and Samaria" means 'colonizers' and 'thieves', then what's a pinch of 'under belligerent occupation' between friends? Maybe we should let that one slide. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 02:44, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Nableezy is right, and I was wrong. 'Under belligerent occupation' is the technical term in international law. Again, could I ask you to desist from violently distorting what other people say, apparently to create an image of ideological fixation that is not there. I used the terms 'colonizers', 'thieves' to describe the attitudes frequently found among Palestinians, and their supporters. Noting this does not mean I believe. My beliefs have nothing intrinsically to do with the description of one POV.Nishidani (talk) 10:51, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

You can ask all you want but I will not stop telling the truth about what Nableezy and yourself are doing here. And please don't try to pretend to be. Your lopsided arguments register an extreme bias with every word you write. If you can't be honest with us about how you brought that statement into the conversation, then you're also not being honest with yourself and the credibility of everything you say becomes even more suspect. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 13:10, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

And would you like the favor of telling the truth about what you are doing here? The words propaganda, hasbara, distort, and more than a few others come to mind. nableezy - 13:46, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Thats quite enough. Your persistence in engaging in such histrionics as calling a wish for an encyclopedia article to be something other than a propaganda piece by using reliable sources that make clear that EJ is not in Israel and is in the occupied Palestinian territories to be a political crusade is becoming more and more tiring by the minute. This is a talk page for an encyclopedia article, an article that will follow reliable sources. You are not free to disregard those sources in an attempt to wage the political crusade of claiming occupied territory as being in Israel. The sources are clear on this point, and so to will the article. Of the two of us, only one has pushed into the article their personal political view. Of the two of us, only one of us is disregarding the sources. Of the two of us, only one of us is continuing in a political crusade. Ill let you guess which one, but with a hint. It isnt me. nableezy - 18:56, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Your sources and their purpose are an irrelevant political tool. Their political nature has nothing to do with the geographical location of a city relative to the administrative area it's governed under for purposes of a map. And please do me a favor by not being so presumptuous that you believe I need education from you on encyclopedia content. I'll not get into the cleanups I've had to make after you lately. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 01:27, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

You say my sources are a political tool, an irrelevant one even, and then say that geographical location of a city relative to the administrative area it's governed under for purposes of a map as though that sentence is not itself political. You still have not understood the actual issue. Saying that Jerusalem is in Israel and having a map that shows Jerusalem as being in Israel, if Jerusalem includes East Jerusalem, is a political statement. Nearly every competent party on the planet agrees that East Jerusalem is not in Israel. A thousand sources can be brought that says that East Jerusalem is not in Israel. Yet you feel somehow qualified to be so presumptuous as to completely disregard all those sources as an irrelevant political tool when you are performing an overtly political act, an act that reduces an encyclopedia article into a propaganda piece, that aligns this encyclopedia with claims that have been widely condemned as violations of international law. This encyclopedia is not a production of the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and you do not get to shove aside sources because they contradict the position you would like the encyclopedia to take. All this effort to twist the language by saying things like relative to the administrative area it's governed under as though that phrase means something betrays the fact that you are unable to respond to the well-established fact that East Jerusalem is not in Israel. It is held under military occupation by Israel. Israel has applied its civil law to that territory, in an act ruled null and void by the UN Security Council and held to be a violation of international law, but it remains occupied Palestinian territory. East Jerusalem is not in Israel, it is in the Israeli-occupied territories. Those are not the same thing, and Wikipedia will not be portraying extreme minority claims as though they were fact in its articles. Yes, Israel controls, or administers East Jerusalem. That does not mean East Jerusalem is in Israel. You can continue to feel free to claim that the sources that make this point crystal clear are irrelevant, but on Wikipedia that claim is what is irrelevant. The sources are what counts, not your personal wish to see this article take your personal political opinions and portray them as fact. nableezy - 02:10, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Why do I keep hearing a haughtiness in your excuses? "On Wikipedia that claim is what is irrelevant." Oh dear. Did someone make you the spokesman for Wikipedia and forgot to tell everyone? You've never heard of an RS source that doesn't apply to some cases? And with this you claim to be spokesman for the project? Can we please have a vote on that before you rewrite the whole encyclopedia? --MichaelNetzer (talk) 02:44, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for continuing with your ignoring of the issue. It is really quite charming. I say something backed by thousands of sources, you say it is irrelevant political baggage. And then you make the expansionist claim that Jerusalem is in Israel, and then make the encyclopedia endorse your unsupported claim. My claim to be spokesman for the project? If you want to argue to the wider community that every source that makes clear that your expansionist views that you have attempted to force in to this article have equal footing with countless scholarly sources you can try that. Id very much enjoy seeing how the wider community acts when your extreme minority POV-pushing campaign is contrasted with countless sources. nableezy - 13:46, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

I am sort of at a loss as to where to respond, but I mostly agree with what Nableezy said with regards to the reasoning as to why the map as you reverted it to wouldn't work. Here is what I think are the problems with the map you are proposing:

-It shows all the administrative districts of Israel, thus implying we are looking at a map of Israel, not the Occupied Territories.

-It gives a different shade of color to Israeli-annexed East Jerusalem than that of the West Bank. Keep in mind, no country recognizes Israel's annexation of land east of the "green" line.

-It denotes the Gaza Strip, the West Bank and the Golan Heights with the same color although the West Bank and Gaza Strip are internationally recognized as being an occupied territory different than that of occupied, sovereign, Syrian territory.

-Though without real relation to the subject at hand here, there is no solid-lined border between Israel and the Golan Heights. One could interpret the map as if the Golan Heights do not belong to any country, although it is, nearly without exception, considered to be Occupied-Syrian Territory.

Given the disputed nature of the different political implications of West Jerusalem vs East Jerusalem, I think the map is fine showing the entire region of Israel or historic Palestine. Though I think it would be better if more of the Levant region itself could be displayed. -asad (talk) 21:02, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

That map is the only reasonable map for this use because for all intents and purposes, Jerusalem's physical location is in Israeli jurisdiction. Everything you say above is addressed in the text of the article and doesn't have to be slapped on this map. But I'm not holding out for some common sense anymore. I'm trying to solve the problem with a terrain map File:Dead Sea terrain location map.jpg that I copied from another one and changed the name so it doesn't have Israel in it, for crying out loud. Then everyone will be happy as WP enters a yet higher level of buffoonery. The map isn't yet working with the infobox template. I left a message with the user who created it and hope to get some help soon. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 03:38, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

What exactly does Jerusalem's physical location is in Israeli jurisdiction mean? Does it mean that Israel controls all of Jerusalem? Because that doesnt mean that it is in Israel. There are any number of solutions for this, the most obvious being one that shows the Green Line and the map alt text and caption say that Jerusalem is in Israel and Palestinian territories. nableezy - 06:04, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

It means just what it says. It does not need your excessive interpretations that are irrelevant to what I said. It does not need your political crusade to explain it, because it explains itself perfectly by itself. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 11:11, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Wow, that wasnt an answer. nableezy - 14:19, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Some people just love to play "Uh no, not in Israel" game, by Jupiter's cock. I think this is not important, Jerusalem is somewhere there between the Dead Sea and Mediterranean Sea in Southern Levant. We have coordinates up there on the article page. Click and use your favorite map provider. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 06:43, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

We do have coordinates and of course they say Jerusalem is in Israel via the ISO 3166-2 region code being set to IL. Funny. Sean.hoyland - talk 10:54, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

I guess it would make sense either: (a) to use both "IL" and "PS" ISO 3166-2 region codes or (b) to use none, if other editors do not object. If anyone could craft IL/PS common map, it would be also welcome. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 15:39, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

So do everyone agree about Michael's map? I guess that now Nableezy and asad won't have any excuses left against making this article better...-- Someone35  15:50, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

You would be well-advised to refrain from making such mendacious attacks on others. nableezy - 16:17, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

No, I don't agree. It is silly that we have to resort to the "my way or the highway" bit. No compelling arguments have been made to my suggestions for map. We are talking about Jerusalem, the political entity, not the geographic entity. What we need is something like this, but with the colors changed to reflect both Israel and the West Bank as being highlighted. -asad (talk) 16:01, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

I vote for no ISO region code. I wonder if there is a large scale map of the ME we could use that would just show roughly where it is on this planet. Sean.hoyland - talk 16:04, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

A map with of Israel and the Palestinian territories with the Green Line prominently displayed and Jerusalem shown as straddling that boundary would be, in my opinion, the best option. I can work on creating such a map if I cant find one (probably modeled on this). Who would object to that and why? nableezy - 16:35, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

What are you planning on including with it? The wall route? The Palestinian Authority controlled areas? -asad (talk) 16:53, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Neither, a map of Israel and oPt with the Green Line, and just the Green Line. nableezy - 17:06, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Maybe closer to this with the Golan removed and much of the map wiped. nableezy - 17:07, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

What's the problem with this one? Or the borderless one? You don't need to create new maps, there are already existing maps that are OK.-- Someone35  17:42, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

The problem is that there is too much unnecessary detail in that map for our purposes here, and for somebody not aware of all the issues here it may be difficult to locate Jerusalem, which is the point of the map. nableezy - 17:55, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Then you can circle it in red color so it will be notable or paint the name "Jerusalem" in red or another prominent color, I guess you have better things to do than making maps of the Middle East-- Someone35  18:53, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

I think an obvious problem with that map is that bits of the West Bank are coloured the same colour as Israel, which is misleading. --Dailycare (talk) 20:48, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

We cannot put any map we agree on into that infobox because we specifically need a "location map" with the proper coordinate data that will allow it to place the word "Jerusalem" with red dot in the exact place. That's how this template works, it only accepts "location maps". I'm in a discussion with the editor who creates some of them and hope to have a solution from him soon. We also need to separate some issues. The coordinates ISO are a function of the template but have nothing to do with the map. It's an issue that needs to be taken care of separately. --MichaelNetzer (talk)

That isnt true. We can use whatever image we want for a map, it does not need to be a pushpin map. nableezy - 14:19, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

You're right, I saw that afterwards. But not all images work there. The map maker said some sizes don't work. I don't know about that but not all maps I tried showed up without errors. I'm suggesting the one I've just placed. I think the page looks good like this and avoids the problem altogether. If someone want to know about borders, they can take the coordinates to any other map. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 20:28, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

You took a unilateral decision to put the map you thought was best despite fierce objection and current discussion here with no consensus. You sure are not making friends here with your bull-headed approach to editing and your political ranting and raving. -asad (talk) 20:30, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Fierce objection to this map? Look Asad. I'm not here to rant but I'll try to stop the politicization being pushed here. What's your problem with the map? --MichaelNetzer (talk) 20:39, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

[1] -asad (talk) 20:41, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

I didn't realize that was in relation to this map. But alright. In less than 20 minutes I'll replace it with a version of the one you like after modifications based on your request. I'm easy when you get to know me. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 20:47, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Here's a version of that map that I modified by your comments and for a little nicer aesthetics, the first one seemed too loud: File:Central-IL WB Gaza map.png

Because you're the only one who objected to the other one and wanted this one, I'll wait for you to approve it before replacing what's there. If there's anything you want changed, let me know. I'll do it immediately and upload another version. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 21:21, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

That looks fine, except there is a weird black line close to where it says "Tul Karem". There are a lot of Israeli costal cities that are missing. Is there a reason for that? -asad (talk) 21:27, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't know about the cities but that's how the other map was. I can add them in and remove the black line that was also there. Hang on. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 21:31, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Done. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 22:06, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Why use a map with so much information that's not relevant to this article? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 09:23, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Ive said what I think should be the map, Just a map of Israel and the Palestinian territories with Jerusalem shown straddling the Green Line. I havent seen a real objection to that. Ill not count the but, but, but it is in Israel as a real objection. nableezy - 13:40, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

You are purposely misrepresenting and lying about what I said, which was only in context of administration that a city is defined by. If you had another idea, then go work it out with Asad who said he agrees with you and now you say you don't agree with the map he wanted. It would be nice if you guys could get your story together considering you're never the ones to improve anything here. All you do is remove, destroy, disparage and cause commotion. And now you say my comments are hypocritical and asinine. I see you want to escalate an already impossible chaos that you are causing. I don't think that's what we're here for but if these are the terms of your participation in this project, then I think WP has ways to deal with editors like you. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 13:51, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

That isnt true, and any person can examine this talk page and see for themselves. You said above that It's about the present state of Jerusalem, which is in Israel and under Israeli jurisdiction until further notice. And I am escalating? I am the one filling the talk page with irrelevant ranting about the self-destructive violent nature of the Arabs, I am the one calling all those that oppose the POV push of claiming occupied territory as Israel's disrupting Wikipedia with their political battles, I am the one who could care less about the encyclopedia? Because I am the one who, shock and horror, actually wishes to have an encyclopedia article reflect reliable sources and not the expansionist goals of a few editors? Yes, hypocritical and asinine. And if you keep it up you may well see how Wikipedia deals with editors like you. nableezy - 13:56, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

At the risk of hell freezing over, I agree with Nableezy. Use one of those yellowish maps that shows Jerusalem straddling the green line without all the unnecessary information. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:13, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Honestly, I figured you would agree with me. Not sure if that is more surprising than you actually doing so. nableezy - 22:25, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Maps of locations of municipalities refer to administrative area not territorial claims or disputes. This is not intended to be a map about the territory, rather a map showing the location of the city of Jerusalem as an administered municipality, which is what cities are. It shouldn't look like it's divided into two parts to suggest E Jerusalem is administered by an entity in the West Bank. There are no reliable sources to support such a map that Nableezy wants. The map that's there now is wrong. We had a good one but Nableezy and friends are all in a huff about the territory. That's not what this map is about. If he wants to add a special map in the body of the article that tells the territorial division, fine. But it shouldn't be in the infobox. There are no such maps anyway, btw, because most maps for such use rely on administrative areas. You can find a special map about the 49 armistice line, and can add it into the body of the article to tell the story, but it's not appropriate for this infobox. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 22:46, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

No, no, and no. nableezy - 22:52, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

So, does anyone have an objection to this map? --MichaelNetzer (talk 23:42, 1 December 2011‎ (UTC)

A dot or star or something on the left map would be good I think, but otherwise this looks like the correct map to use for this article. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 23:54, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

I object. There are several problems with that map. For one, it places a border between Israel and Gaza and between Israel and Jordan, but no border between Israel and Syria (red is a border in that map) and instead places a border between Syria and the Golan. It also separates Jerusalem from the rest of the West Bank. nableezy - 00:27, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

How does it separate Jerusalem from WB? --MichaelNetzer (talk) 00:47, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

The most prominent boundary on the map in the area of Jerusalem is the barrier route, not the Green Line, and with the coloring and the inclusion of the barrier route it appears that all of Jerusalem, in fact Greater Jerusalem is within Israel. I'll try to work on a map tonight, it will be relatively close to the one had been in the article but with most of the rest of the map blanked. Maybe keep a few cities for reference, Im thinking Nablus, Hebron, Bethlehem, Tel Aviv and maybe Beersheba. But could you please stop unilaterally changing the map? I have restrained myself from reverting you, but you dont have any consensus for your change. Stop doing this. nableezy - 01:26, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Seeing the map on the page helps everyone understand the visualization. And it's only a map that's easily changed. I don't think it should bother anyone and if it does they can revert, it's not a big deal. I'll try to refrain if it bothers you, but really... --MichaelNetzer (talk) 02:36, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

No it doesnt, you can link to a map here. In fact, that is what everybody except for you has been doing. So, please self-revert until we can establish a consensus on what map to use.

The Golan territory is identified by the yellow color as not being the same as the white. The red border is the effective present border. It doesn't mean it's legal or recognized. It's just the present border. When someone tours the area, they don't find a border between Israel and the Golan but they come to the border between Golan and Syria. The line around Jerusalem is an administrative demarcation. The city is under civilian admin while WB is under a military one. This is the relevant information of the reality on the ground and that's what the map shows. I understand what you're saying but I don't see how you can deny this information. It's more important for the sake of the map than the territorial dispute which is a separate issue, and covered extensively in the article. There are no RS sources that would say this map shows something incorrect. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 01:16, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Uh, no. The Purple Line is not the "effective present border", it is what separates Syrian controlled territory and Israeli-occupied Syrian territory. Im not getting into this with you here, it isnt relevant and I dont feel like pounding my head against a wall for the next few hours. And as a matter of fact several sources will say that display is incorrect. Among them the United Nations, the United States and any number of other sources. nableezy - 01:26, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Alright, let's compromise and call it "the border that separates Syrian controlled territory from Israeli-occupied Syrian territory". But there is no reliable source on Earth that will say what this map represents is incorrect. It might not represent something else, but what it represents is correct. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 02:36, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

The Purple Line is not a border, and the issue remains that what appears to be an international border is placed within Syrian territory but not between Syria and Israel. The "border" between Israel and Syria is the 1923 border agreed to by Britain and France. The map you are using shows Syrian territory as being Israeli territory. That isnt much better than showing Palestinian territory as being Israeli territory, and I cant believe I have to repeat this but for a different occupied territory. nableezy - 04:42, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

This whole discussion is irrelevant to the article in that some editors want to turn this map into a referendum on the entire IP conflict. But saying the political issues are covered in body of the article and don't need to be in the map, goes in one ear and out the other. They are not listening to anyone and they certainly don't seem interested in collaboration. They're here to fight a war on the pages of Wikipedia and this map is a perfect example of it. Asad thought it was more important to load the map with irrelevant politics than it is to just show where it is on the terrain. This is the problem with editors coming for the expressed purpose of disrupting Wikipedia with their political battles. They don't listen, they don't discuss with any concern, and they could care less about the encyclopedia. They never build or improve anything, all they do is disrupt everyone's work by removing it and causing large irrelevant disputes. They come armed with the magic "RS" word as if the project has been taken hostage by their select sources. That's why we're using a map with so much irrelevant information. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 13:03, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Says the person claiming occupied Palestinian territory is in Israel, and doing so in an article no less. Political battles may ass, look in the mirror. Ill put my record, or Nishidani's, up against your any day and we can see who is building and who is disrupting. But once again, this is an article talk page. Kindly stop making these hypocritical and truly asinine comments. nableezy - 13:39, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

I never said any territory is in Israel, if you didn't notice. Of course, you wouldn't notice that I only talked about the administration of a city, because you're too busy fighting a war for Palestine instead of improving the encyclopedia. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 13:43, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes you did. You used a map that placed the city in Israel, that had alt text that said Jerusalem is located in Israel, and said on this talk page that It's about the present state of Jerusalem, which is in Israel and under Israeli jurisdiction until further notice. You really should reconsider your proclivity for making things up, especially if you are going to contradict yourself in the future. It is much wiser to ensure that you are being truthful to begin with, that way it is not as hard to keep your story straight. nableezy - 13:49, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

A municipality is defined by its area of administration. Jerusalem is a municipality, a city. Thus Jerusalem's placement on the map reflects its area of administration, not a border dispute that has no consequence on the administration of the city. Israel takes responsibility for all of the residents of Jerusalem and administers their needs. When that changes and the municipality is divided into two administrative areas, then we can discuss a suitable geographical representation of Jerusalem. You never once responded to my saying this as if nothing I say counts except your passionate war filter about occupied territories. This is not what collaboration is about. It's not what discussion and exchange of ideas are about. You are expected to be considerate of another editors argument, but you know no such thing. You should try to learn from me what it is to be considerate and attentive. I'm the one who spent hours making that map look presentable in order to appease Asad's political hunger that you also crave. When the day comes that you start showing some respect and collaborative spirit, then we can put these disputes behind us. Until then, if you choose war, then you'll have it. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 14:05, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

You still do not get it. You made an encyclopedia article say that occupied Palestinian territory is in Israel. The geographic location of Jerusalem is in Israel and the Palestinian territories. If you would like me to be considerate, you might want to reconsider the ridiculous rants you have filled this talk page with. I am not the one discussing an Israeli compulsion for dominance over the natives and their land, a colonial enterprise that seeks to subjugate and control, or any other POV that I may or may not hold. You are the one doing this. I have responded to you several times, and each times you brush aside that response and say something like RSs are an irrelevant political tool or the geographic location is in Israel without once considering that your overtly political campaign compromises the integrity of the article by allowing minority claims to be presented as objective truth and trampling over well-established facts. Again, this is an article talk page. I dont want to discuss your personal views, they dont interest me. I dont edit Wikipedia to read the views of some settler, if I wanted to do that I would ask you to start a blog. This is an encyclopedia, an encyclopedia based on reliable sources. And those sources say, very clearly, that East Jerusalem is not in Israel. That Israel controls (occupies is the correct word) East Jerusalem does not make East Jerusalem in Israel. You are the one performing overtly political actions in article space, and then you accuse those of us who call you on your expansionist hasbara campaign to be engaged in a political battle. Yeah, right. Kindly desist with these charges. If you do not I will do what I have to to ensure that we no longer have to read such hypocrisy. nableezy - 14:23, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Again you accuse me falsely. Its placement in Israel is not one of territorial dispute. The map I used is with Israel's administration is the best one because the administration of a city is what defines it. Not disputes over its territory. That is a majority RS view about municipalities. The territorial disputes are covered in the article. Your sources about territory are irrelevant to the map. Your distorting what I say, as if to mean that I don't recognize the territorial dispute is disingenuous and misleading, and insidious. You can keep talking as if you only know how to talk to yourself. I will take every opportunity to show how you're misrepresenting my statements to mean something they don't intend, in order to continue waging your war here armed with irrelevant sources to this map. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 14:31, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Your own words are clear, and these attempts to change those clear words into something else is a familiar tactic but not an effective one. I dont care about what you recognize, and I have made no comment on what you recognize, only what you have put into an encyclopedia article. You still dont get the point. No matter who controls or occupies East Jerusalem, its location is in the oPt, and claiming that it is in Israel because Israel administers the city is about a rank a POV push as I have seen in some time. nableezy - 14:49, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Just like in the 30s people said that Jerusalem was in Great Britain and in the 19th century people said it was in the Ottoman Empire because they ruled it, it is now in Israel since the Israeli taxpayer's money goes to social security for Arabs in Eastern Jerusalem as well as to Jews in Western Jerusalem and since all the residents of Eastern Jerusalem have Israeli passports-- Someone35  19:36, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Nobody ever said that Jerusalem was in Great Britain, and Jerusalem was in the Ottoman Empire. It was not "Ottoman-occupied" or whatever term you want to claim would be equivalent to the current status. And no, residents of East Jerusalem do not have Israeli passports, they have the status of permanent resident, not citizens. But that is irrelevant, East Jerusalem is considered to be, by nearly the entire world, in the occupied Palestinian territories, not in Israel. Your belief does not trump the sources, and the sources are clear on this point. nableezy - 19:54, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Why do you say the Ottoman Empire wasn't an occupier of Jerusalem? --MichaelNetzer (talk) 02:36, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

The term belligerent occupation has a specific meaning, and the transformation from the idea of a right of conquest to the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by force as a principle of international law took place around WW I. If you are actually interested in this, I suggest a reading of The Right of Conquest: The Acquisition of Territory by Force in International Law and Practice by Susan Korman. nableezy - 04:42, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Hey Nableezy do you like your pizza with olives or with mushrooms?-- Someone35  06:01, 2 December 2011 (UTC)