Wikipedia talk:Wikiproject Supernatural

Quick Question

I do have a question, about Apport. Could it possibly be related to the experiences seen in twins, such as transmitted feeling (where one twin feels something, and the other does as well, even if miles away)? Other than that, I'll see what I can find on the subject. ThirdEye 19:46, 21 March 2006

Howdy. I'm super excited to be a part of a WikiProject on just an exciting topic. Kudos on getting this setup! One thing is stuck in my mind, however. How do we choose to differ between religious and supernatural? ProfMoriarty 00:04, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

You tell the difference by searching for any religious person or thing in the artice, then read that sentance or paragraph to see if it sounds supernatural or religious. ~VNinja~ 19:12, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Is "supernatural" the best term? No, "paranormal" is.

Note: My original title was Is "supernatural" the best term?. Someone else added the rest. Fuzzypeg 16:44, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

In relation to occultism, witchcraft and magic, it is common for occultists to avoid using the word supernatural, since in many schools of thought magic is considered to be a part of nature, rather than some separate force (apart from nature). This is from philosophies that hold that everything is ultimately one, and there is no creator-creation duality. If the concept of God is considered, for instance, we are part of God, and God can also be termed the universe or nature, etc.

Thus "supernatural" tends to imply "fictitious", since a thing cannot be "beyond" or "outside of" nature. Instead other words are employed, like "paranormal" (note this term is used to disambiguate a few articles). This doesn't imply that miraculous things don't happen, but it does conveniently imply that the cause of these things may be within our sphere of influence.

I know this is just the name of a project, and in itself should cause no problems, but I want to make sure some care is taken with how terminology is allowed to creep into articles. Fuzzypeg 16:28, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Albert Einstein: I believe in God, but I call God by the term "nature". StarHeart 22:42, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

There's a big difference between what is nature and what "scientists" are currently capable of explaining. Once upon a time, to state that "the world is round" would have been a "supernatural" claim. StarHeart 22:42, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

You bring an interesting point. However, if I understand correctly, "supernatural" implies "separate from nature." I would presume this meant "nature as defined by science." If we recognize, as an encyclopedia that delivers unbiased and neutral information, that seperate from the definitions of science, an institution that definetly does not associate with the supernatural, does not equal invalid, I think we are okay. ProfMoriarty 18:01, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

1. Supernatural literally means "beyond natural". 2. I would guess that the word "nature" is not precisely defined within any branch of science. That's the kind of definition that would be more likely (and more useful) within philosophy or metaphysics. 3. Occultists generally take the simplest approach and define nature as "everything", unless they believe in a transcendent deity – see my further comments below. The point remains that the term "supernatural" rankles with a lot of mystics and occultists because it implies fictitiousness. Fuzzypeg 16:44, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Once the latest research tools allows the "scientists" to EXPLAIN observed phenomena, then that phenomena is no longer referred to as being "occult" or "paranormal" or "supernatural". Maybe there would be less confusion to use the term "paranormal". StarHeart 22:42, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I agreee that paranormal is the better term. Supernatural has connotations of "miracles", ie. things out of the order of the universe (which is really a nonsensical notion), and it implies that the universe has something "outside" it which can affect it (which is too POV, in my mind, and it is at odds with how many adherents of these beliefs view matters). Lundse 01:33, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

The concept that the universe has something 'outside' of it which can affect it (normally God) is termed transcendence. It's actually quite common (most Christian churches follow this model), and provides an explanation of reality that allows miracles but also has laws of nature that don't allow miracles. This philosophical standpoint is not so helpful though, when it comes to actually interacting with this transcendent reality (God, whatever). Without going into a huge theological exegesis, suffice it to say that this philosophy is much less common amongst occultists. Fuzzypeg 16:44, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Scope of Wikiproject Supernatural

What is the scope of this project? How many ideas are you attempting to bring together? Are you interested in bringing things like Angels and Demons (mentioned elsewhere in the discussion page), Legendary Creatures, Ghosts, supernatural phenomenon, hauntings, ESP, telekinesis, etc? Or is it more focused on paranormal activity, or "real" experiences had by individuals? Exodio 04:12, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Challenges

• Healing abilities of Joel Goldsmith verified by his many clients in Philadelphia? StarHeart 10:11, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

• Healing abilities of Olga Worrall documented by research @ UCLA? StarHeart 10:11, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

• How was Emmanuel Swedenborg able to "see" the fire in Stockholm while he was in Gotesborg? StarHeart 22:53, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

• From his dreams, how did Abraham Lincoln know that he would soon be killed? StarHeart 22:53, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

• Why did Baha'u'llah, founder of the Baha'i Faith, cancel his trip on the passengership Lusitania? StarHeart 22:53, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

• Why did Bridey Murphy speak a foreign language when she was in a fever, but she never studied that language during her current incarnation prior to getting sick? StarHeart 22:54, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Swedenborg - I don't know, maybe the reporting back then was a bit lax (even Kant, who wanted very much to believe these things had to accede that two of three "supernatural incidents" he investigated were nothing but tales). Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, this is a bit old and un-cited...

Lincoln - How is this remarkable? He was hated by about half the nation and had been the target of many assasination plots, so he dreamed about it. He even said himself he did not believe the dream was about himself being assasinated.

Baha'u'llah - He cancelled a ticket, so what?

Murphy - was an Irishwoman whom "Virginia Tighe" thought or at least claimed she channeled from old Ireland, in fact, she was a childhood neighbour. See [[1]].

I am getting a bit concerned about what the goal of this project is, reporting these beliefs or rehearsing them.... And what is the point of this section? It sounds suspiciously like you are trying to prove that some paranormal phenomenon are "real"; I would like to ask the participants about their view on the paranormal and how they plan to report on it. Lundse 16:04, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Lundse - I am skeptic, I have heard of no peer-reviewed nor reproducable experiments on paranormal phenomenon. On the contrary, there is still over 1,000,000$ up for anyone who can show any psychic, occult or otherwordly effects - no takers. I believe articles on the paranormal should be neutral, telling accurately what adherents believe and why - and why mainstream science (ie. applied common sense) does not buy into the phenomenon. Attempts to prove such phenomena should be reported, along with any methodological problems with these proofs.

That's a lie. The "Amazing Randi" is a fraud. If you bother to listen to him or read him closely, you'll learn that Randi has NO intention of allowing ANY objective third party to monitor any "research" that Randi pretends to conduct to validate anyone's claim regarding the paranormal. (I doubt that Randi even has $100K in the bank for any reason.) You're NOT a sceptic, you're a debunker. As the Amazing Randi, you have no intention of permitting honest inquiry. Leave us alone and get a life. StarHeart 22:05, 31 March 2006 (UTC)