Jump to content

Talk:Alexandru Ioan Cuza: Difference between revisions

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Content deleted Content added
WilliamH (talk | contribs)
struck comments from sock User:LegionG
Boldwin (talk | contribs)
No edit summary
Line 170: Line 170:


There may be grounds for moving the article, for all we know, and other arguments stated in the poll may carry lots more weight than the "Jack Chirac" inanity, but whatever Saturnian did on the basis of that awful and sciolistic rationale counts as highly disruptive. And I'm not at all impressed by the claim that he should be left to his devices just because (Codrinb tells us) he once did some repetitious task for googlemaps. In fact, there may be grounds for analyzing the validity of this guy's entire wikipedia activity - if he can be this wrong about an issue, and if he will defend absurdities with as virulent entrenchment, I cannot help but wonder what he has done to other articles. [[User:Dahn|Dahn]] ([[User talk:Dahn|talk]]) 10:30, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
There may be grounds for moving the article, for all we know, and other arguments stated in the poll may carry lots more weight than the "Jack Chirac" inanity, but whatever Saturnian did on the basis of that awful and sciolistic rationale counts as highly disruptive. And I'm not at all impressed by the claim that he should be left to his devices just because (Codrinb tells us) he once did some repetitious task for googlemaps. In fact, there may be grounds for analyzing the validity of this guy's entire wikipedia activity - if he can be this wrong about an issue, and if he will defend absurdities with as virulent entrenchment, I cannot help but wonder what he has done to other articles. [[User:Dahn|Dahn]] ([[User talk:Dahn|talk]]) 10:30, 4 December 2011 (UTC)


== Alexandru Ioan Cuza ==

The statement that only Romanian and English sources are using the Romanian name Alexandru Ioan Cuza is not correct. There are Italian, French, German and Spanich sources using Alexandru Ioan Cuza
# Encyclopedia of world constitutions by Gerhard Robbers – 2007
# The Encyclopedia Americana Grolier, 1985
# Encyclopedia Americana , Volume 30 Scholastic Library Pub., 2006
# Historical abstracts: Modern history abstracts, 1450-1914, Volume 47, by American Bibliographical Center, Eric H. Boehm 1996
# The Balkans: a post-communist history By Robert Bideleux, Ian Jeffries
# Die Hohenzollern in Rumänien: 1866 - 1947 ; eine monarchische ...by Gunter Klein edited by Edda Binder-Iijima
# Romania in Pictures by Ann Kerns 2006 Romania Mark Sanborne - 2004 -
# Myth, identity and conflict: A comparative analysis of Romanian and Serbian ... By Anamaria Dutceac Segesten, University of Maryland, College Park. Government and Politics By Anamaria Dutceac Segesten, University of Maryland, College Park. Government and Politics
# Romanian politics, 1859-1871: from Prince Cuza to Prince Carol by Paul E. Michelson
# Frommer's Eastern Europe By Mark Baker, Keith Bain, Angela Charlton, Heather Coombs, Pippa de Bruyn
# Romania A Country Study 2004 By Federal Research Division
# Romania: the unfinished revolution By Steven D. Roper
# Balkan identities: nation and memory by David Nikolaeva Sciulli, Maria Todorova and Walt Whitman 2003
# Encyclopedia of the Ottoman Empire By Gábor Ágoston, Bruce Alan Masters 2009
# Cahiers d'études romanes Issue 14, Parts 1-2 Institut des langues, littératures et civilisations romanes et d'Amérique Latine, Université de Provence., 2005
# Collier's encyclopedia: with bibliography and index Lauren S. Bahr, Bernard Johnston (M.A.), Louise A. Bloomfield - 1996
# Ethnic Groups of Europe: An Encyclopedia Jeffrey Cole 2011
# Donaukreuzfahrt By Hinnerk Dreppenstedt 2011
# Factors of Social and Economic Rural Development: A Case Study of the … By Paulin Giurgi
# Romania - Culture Smart!: The Essential Guide to Customs & Culture By Debbie Stowe 2010
# República de las letras: órgano de la Asociación Colegial de Escritores de España, Issues 86-87 2004 –Law (Spanish)
# Guia Del Mundo 2008/ Guide to the World 2008 By Instituto Del Tercer Mundo (COR) (Italian)
# Balkan studies: biannual publication of the Institute for Balkan Studies, Volume 10 Hidryma Meletōn Chersonēsou tou Haimou (Thessalonikē, Greece)

Changing the Romanian name Alexandru Ioan Cuza to a form Alexander John Cuza is found mostly in wikipedia sources but also few other

It would be also strange to change the followings
* Ioan Evans
* Ioan Gruffudd
* Ioan Manu (19th century)
* Ioan Sterca-Şuluţiu
* Ioan al IV-lea Potcoavă
* Ioan Petru Culianu or Couliano

I hope it helps[[User:Boldwin|Boldwin]] ([[User talk:Boldwin|talk]]) 15:20, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Revision as of 15:20, 6 December 2011

WikiProject iconRomania B‑class
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Romania, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Romania-related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
BThis article has been rated as B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
???This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
To-do list:

Here are some tasks awaiting attention:
WikiProject iconBiography: Politics and Government / Royalty and Nobility B‑class
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.
BThis article has been rated as B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by the politics and government work group.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by WikiProject Royalty and Nobility.

Untitled

Shouldn't the main title of this page be Alexandru Ioan Cuza, rather than the English translation of the name? The man's name was not "Alexander John Cuza". --SeekingOne 14:09, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)

No. You cannot stop progress. The English disrespect is perpetrating together with the popcorn culture. And we also enjoy calling their people: Gheorghe Tufis, Veta a-II-a, and Jean Lipitura(007). Please don't deny us the small pleasures. Novac3 17:30, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't agree. Please use the native proper name, using the English Alphabet. There is no policy I know on Wikipedia.org about translating the proper names to John, or Emmanuelle from french to Emma, or Michelle to Michael. Please SeekingOne do try to bring out this matter on Wikipedia community forums agenda, and let me know, will you ? Bogdan 188.25.28.82 (talk) 15:59, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The name of the article changed to Alexandru Ioan Cuza

In order to apply the same rule for all names, I do not think there should be much debate about this fact: the name of the prince is Alexandru Ioan Cuza. Of course, with a mention about the English spelling inside the article.
(Rgvis (talk) 18:37, 22 October 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Yes, the name must be Alexandru Ioan Cuza. For example, there is no Jack Chirac instead of Jacques Chirac :)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.24.194.174 (talk) 16:53, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe it's time you looked through a Romanian dictionary, or even the Romanian wikipedia, and read about Henric VIII, and Ludovic XIV, and Ioan Fără de Ţară, and Petru II Alekseievici, and Andrei Bat(h)ori, and Filip II, and Alexandru Obrenovici, and Gheorghe II, and Iosif II, and Petru II. English usage is English usage. Dahn (talk) 18:35, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This is just defamatory. If you think otherwise, please change first the names of Giorgio Napolitano to George Napolitano and Jacques Chirac to Jack Chirac. Later we can see if somebody agrees. Saturnian (talk) 06:32, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Saturnian, have a second, third and fourth look over my message. Take the examples one by one, and contemplate what the articles I've linked to have in common with each other, and why I have been piping those links. Take as much time as you need, really, then come back to us with a less anodyne reply than "it's defamatory". Dahn (talk) 13:53, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Saturnian, your edits to the article are counter to Wikipedia:Article titles, and the language your using against Dahn for following WP policy while you are breaking it is not helpful. As regards the source Istoria României în date, this source is not in English, it is in Romanian. It does not qualify as an English book. It is a Romanian book. It is in Romanian. Sorry to repeat myself, but do you understand why I am saying this? In ictu oculi (talk) 13:12, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

Alexander John CuzaAlexandru Ioan CuzaAlexandru Ioan Cuza is the name of this ruler. Nobody translates the names of presidents Giorgio Napolitano to George Napolitano and Jacques Chirac to Jack Chirac. Translating the name is just defamatory . -- Saturnian (talk) 06:37, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sfântul Andrei is known as Saint Andrew in English sources. Alexandru Ioan Cuza is known as Alexander John Cuza in English sources (search google books for Alexander John Cuza, there are numerous results). You should have at least waited for a consensus before modifying the Romanian Naval Forces article with the Romanian form of the name. Or at least modify the name used in the text AND in the photo description.--Mircea87 (talk) 09:27, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
So Nicolae Ceaușescu should be Nicholas Ceaușescu if "English sources" would referred him as Nicholas ?? Having the name translated is defamatory and it introduces ambiguity. -- Saturnian (talk) 09:38, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Check WP:TITLE. There are quite a few number of books in English that use the Alexander John Cuza form (as seen here). I don't think it is a translation, it's more like an anglicization. It does not introduce ambiguity for the English readers as the name is already used in numerous books that are written in English.--Mircea87
The first book on this list states that it is derived from Wikipedia articles. A clasic case of circular referencing, and all the more reason for changing. As primarily an English language reader, I personally never came across this odd rendition of his name until this article. RashersTierney (talk) 11:16, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Check the other books, there are more pages in that search. There are books from 1906, 1920, 1971, 1996. I usually ignore General Books LLC books or whatever these Wikipedia books are called.--Mircea87 (talk) 11:39, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It a plain translation, it is defamatory translation for a head of state and it leads to ambiguity because one can easily think that Alexander John Cuza and Alexandru Ioan Cuza are TWO different persons! -- Saturnian (talk) 10:34, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If our entire readership is dead stupid, yes, that is a likely outcome - but otherwise, no, it's maybe the same chance that they would have of believing that "Romania", "Roumania" and "Rumania" are three different countries. If they still do that after all the redirects and the quite obvious explanations, then there's probably nothing we could ever do to help them. Incidentally, it's Romanian users who tend to get confused about the names of people they supposedly know better - I can show you examples of Romanian users who cause disruption by getting Al. J. Cuza mixed up with A. C. Cuza, or Ion Luca Caragiale with Luca Caragiale. It's all a great cycle of sciolism, and you're only encouraging it at this point in time. As for the "defamatory translation for a head of state", let me make the issue even easier for you to take into focus: have you ever heard of Suveranul pontif Ioan Paul II and Elisabeta II a Marii Britanii? Think about it, then get back to us. Dahn (talk) 14:15, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
After you have been able to change the name of Giorgio Napolitano to George Napolitano and Jacques Chirac to Jack Chirac, then I will read you messages. Saturnian (talk) 15:14, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, the old "I can't hear you" post. Saturnian, it's not vital for me that you read and reply to my posts (though I have a hunch you read them, and cannot reply to them); given the embarrassing nature of your rationale for changing the article title, it would be vital for you to do so. Then maybe, like Daizus' below, your argument would not be one that discredits itself. Others will read they page in good faith, and they will understand as much, regardless of you typing the same Chirac & Napoletano nonsense in bold letters every couple of minutes. Ciao, Dahn (talk) 15:20, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No, you are not wright. It is about the dignity of an important figure of Romanian History. Maybe you don't understand that and your behavior, including personal attacks (like "don't you have anything better to do?"), is not a proper one. Thus, if you will continue, I will report you seriously. Saturnian (talk) 15:30, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Go for it, by all means. Then we'll be discussing your own mass edits and the two new accounts that popped out of nowhere to support your position, and then perhaps we'll even be extending the sock investigation to other areas of your recent activity. I tend to dislike getting myself dragged into wikidrama, as I have many other constructive things to do over here, but enough is enough. Dahn (talk) 15:36, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You are again wrong... Saturnian (talk) 15:50, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Books of 2010 derived from Wikipedia articles - "great" argument. Those books are wrong too. There is no excuse for such ridiculity. LegionG (talk) 12:05, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Struck comment from sock. WilliamH (talk) 17:41, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Have you actually searched the other pages from that link? There are books that were published before wikipedia existed with this designation (Alexander John Cuza). This theory of "circular referencing" is wrong.--Mircea87 (talk) 12:22, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The institutions bearing his name use the proper name, Alexandru Ioan Cuza, in English writings; for example Alexandru Ioan Cuza University, [1]. -- Saturnian (talk) 16:32, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Struck comment from sock. WilliamH (talk) 17:41, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for the time being, please see WP:Article titles these RM votes aren't a beauty contest, and if an experienced RM Admin comes along I doubt he/she will be swayed by counting some of the support comments above. What you need to do, Saturnian, is demonstrate from WP:RS that according to recent, lets say post-WWII, mainstream English language sources that you'll find by searching Google Books and Google Scholar, that references such as Oxford Illustrated Encyclopedia - World history from 1800 to the present day ed. Robert Blake - 1993 "A German-born prince and Prussian officer, he was elected in 1866 to succeed Alexander John Cuza as Prince of Romania. His pro-German sympathies made him unpopular during the *Franco-Prussian War, but skill in manipulating politicians ..." are the minority and in WP:RS the Romanian spelling for this prince is more common. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:01, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
And who proved "that according to recent, lets say post-WWII, mainstream English language sources that you'll find by searching Google Books and Google Scholar", Alexander John Cuza is the more common form of the name? Daizus (talk) 14:25, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Daizus, please see here vs here. That is 1950-2011 in Google Scholar. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:07, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
... So we are talking 11 Alexander John Cuza vs 6130 Alexandru Ioan Cuza on Google Scholar. What point are you trying to make? --Codrin.B (talk) 05:11, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am actually neutral, for now. What I demand from all other users is a clear, intelligent, argument about what the consensus is in reliable sources that are indeed in English. Not cheap tricks of the sort "I read about it in Romanian". It's time my fellow Romanians understood that the "it's not his name" defense is absurd - the name in English is the one standardized by English sources, per wikipedia rules and per common sense. The "Jack Chirac" and "George Napoletano" (as far as the "joke" goes, shouldn't it be "George from Naples"?) and "Nicholas Ceauşescu" (again, "Nicholas the Squire"?) arguments are of the most inane kind, and simple counts of ignoratio elenchi. To even take them seriously is to debase this entire threat. I want to see evidence of what most sources use, not rhetoric and appeals to emotion. And I have half a mind to ask for a sockpuppet investigation regarding one of the accounts above. Dahn (talk) 13:28, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I wish to remind every one of the enthusiasts above: Wikipedia is not a democracy. Meaning that we don't vote to rule out the usage in outside sources, and also that establishing proper English usage should perhaps tacitly disqualified the opinions expressed by people who think "ridiculity" is an actual word... Dahn (talk) 13:54, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support move - on a quick glance Google Books search returns over 74k entries for "Alexandru Ioan Cuza" (I know they are many in Romanian, but also see [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] etc) and 794 for "Alexander John Cuza". Daizus (talk) 14:25, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Not only that, but those 794 sources that talk about "Alexander John Cuza", many are from Books LLC, a self-reference to Wikipedia. There is simply a very small minority of sources for the "Alexander John Cuza". We should rename the article and stop wasting time and bytes for non-issues.--Codrin.B (talk) 05:06, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Books LLC can be removed from search results using syntax such as -inauthor:"Books, LLC" though it's not 100% efficient.--Mircea87 (talk) 12:37, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I know. And you can also add -wikipedia. Regards. --Codrin.B (talk) 16:47, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure what it means for the purposes of this poll to even follow up on random false leads, but neither UE, UCN nor SET have applicability in this debate. In fact, UE clearly states: "The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage", which should imply that, when an anglicized version exists, wikipedia takes it as its own. Dahn (talk) 15:49, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You can see easily that Cuza doesn't bear the title "of Romania" and thus Alexander John Cuza is just a fancy defamatory name. The remark "Obviously many people do call him Alexander John Cuza" is flawed. I am not sure how you can prove that. Saturnian (talk) 16:20, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It has been proved, repeatedly, by googling for the phrase. I would have no objection to calling the article Prince Alexander John Cuza, if that is the perceived defamation; but when rulers are normally referred to by surname, there's really no need for more than that. Ludovico Sforza has neither Duke nor of Milan - because the title is unambiguous. So here. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:42, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
But would you call him Ludwig Strength? Let's stick to WP:UE and WP:UCN--Codrin.B (talk) 02:18, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You will find that both "Lewis Sforza" and "Louis Sforza" are attested anglicized variants - as to why they're not used there, I frankly urge you to start a debate on that topic at the proper venue. The mock-variant "Ludwig Strength" is absurd, because it answers to no suggestion ever made here or anywhere, and does not accurately reflect any naming practice whatsoever. As for the norms you keeping "invoking" without even reading, as I told you before: they are basically irrelevant in this debate, but if you insist on on quoting WP:UE, make sure you don't skip over the part where it clearly says that, when attested, anglicizations are preferred. I'm not saying that we should have this article at the anglicized variant (but so what if we do?); I'm saying, quite intelligebly, that you need to stick to decent, logical, arguments in stating otherwise. Regards, Dahn (talk) 15:58, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Do you know "Alexandru Ioan Cuza" University ? Probably not, since you "Oppose on the whole". -- Saturnian (talk) 16:36, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
We should call the University what it is called in English; so with the Prince. We are here to communicate with anglophones, not to remodel the English language. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:42, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You mean that University it wrong about his own name - which is absurd. -- Saturnian (talk) 16:49, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"Do I contradict myself? Very well, I contradict myself; I am large, I contain multitudes." Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:53, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The university argument is another false lead, obviously. The university calls itself whatever it wants to, in English or Romanian, and this has no bearing on how we name the concept its name references. Indeed, it couldn't have, since the two issues are unrelated. An easy example of this is the University of Naples Federico II, named after a guy we call Frederick. A local example is Ştefan cel Mare University of Suceava, named after a guy we call Stephen III of Moldavia. Dahn (talk) 16:05, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Just because I know him as Alexandru Ioan Cuza in my country does not mean that this name is ipso facto the correct title for the article. That is why there is an article on the English wikipedia about Michael of Romania and not Mihai of Romania.--Mircea87 (talk) 20:05, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As other wikipedians noted, Alexandru Ioan Cuza, the ruler, is best known by his native name Alexandru Ioan Cuza, not other invention. Using the real name is a gesture of respect and tolerance. Put yourself in the situation to have your name translated and to be called with the translated name. I doubt somebody would like this situation. Or, the opponents lack such values? -- Saturnian (talk) 20:25, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Opposed to Michael of Romania, Cuza doesn't bear the title "of Romania" and thus Alexander John Cuza is just a fancy defamatory name. -- Saturnian (talk) 20:33, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
One of the many reasons why Cuza is not universally known as "of Romania" is that "Romania" simply wasn't a name in general use of the time. He was "of the United Principalities", but that would be redundant. The other titles referred to above, with "X of Russia" and "Y of England", have the "of something" part in the title to distinguish them from "X of Piedmont" and "Y of France". In Cuza's case, this disambiguation is served by the particle "Cuza", which was in fact part of his official title. For an actual parallel, have a glance over John III Sobieski, who, incidentally, was also an elected monarch. Note the name in English and the family name in Polish, with no "of Poland" thrown in there, and with the number clarifying his succession among Johns of Poland. I could go on, by pointing out, say, Sigismund III Vasa and other cases. Do you, at long last, understand something of this discussion? Dahn (talk) 13:07, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Both forms of name are used in reliable English language sources. The policy issue appears to be which is the more prevalent form in English. Google searches often include references to the eponymous University. However, it appears that Alexandru Ioan Cuza is still more common in English when referring solely to the individual concerned. The supposed 'defamation' is total nonsense and a distraction from collegial debate, as is the apparent canvassing and other questionable interaction. That aside, and it is no trivial matter, the 'common name' clause would appear to support the move. RashersTierney (talk) 02:36, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If it's a fact, tell me how many of those 74k entries for Alexandru Ioan Cuza from Google Books are from English books. Don't worry, I'll wait.--Mircea87 (talk) 16:22, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Please check what others said about the common name. Saturnian (talk) 16:41, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Stricken out !vote by single purpose account. Dahn (talk) 15:28, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You can use Google Books' Advanced Book Search to filter by language. The results for "Alexandru Ioan Cuza" OR "Alexandru Ion Cuza" OR "Alexandru Cuza" -universitatea -university -wikipedia filtering by English only, yields 8,720 hits. The results of a similarly filtered search for "Alexander John Cuza" OR "Alexander Cuza" -universitatea -university -wikipedia brings just 3,110 hits. --Codrin.B (talk) 16:47, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. This is a borderline case. Both forms are perfectly correct in English. The form we are currently using is the traditional way of speaking about the person in English. It is also the main form of the name used by the 1911 edition of Encyclopaedia Britannica. (If you want to verify it: It's volume 7, p. 678, under "Cuza, Alexander John". This is a genuine English name for the man, so under a strict reading of WP:UE it would be what we must use. It is also an old-fashioned way of speaking about the man. Nowadays, in our globalised society, English speakers (and similarly the speakers of most other languages) no longer change foreign names in this way. If he lived today, then he would of course be filed under his normal, Romanian name, in normal, Romanian spelling. But since the other form is already established, it will take some time for it to be replaced -- if that ever happens. (E.g. I don't think de:Friedrich der Große will be known anything but Frederick the Great anytime soon. If anything, having such a genuine English name is a mark of honour. It means that someone is sufficiently important.
Given that nowadays the Romanian form appears to be slightly more common than the English form of the name even in English, and given that even Britannica today spells him Alexandru Ion Cuza (note: "Ion", not "Ioan"), I think a Romanian form of the name would also be admissible. However, when two versions of a name are correct and there are no POV problems involved, then we generally preserve the original title. Hans Adler 17:43, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I get 507 post-1980 English-language Google Book results for "Alexandru Ioan Cuza" and variations, minus "university" and "universitatea." This compares to 215 for "Alexander John Cuza" or "Alexander Cuza". Britannica`s "Alexandru Ion Cuza" is presumably a misspelling of "Alexandru Ioan Cuza". Kauffner (talk) 00:41, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Technically, "Ion" is not a misprint, but a alternative - like "Iuan" to "Ewan". Dahn (talk) 00:46, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Stricken out !vote by single purpose account. Dahn (talk) 15:28, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Saturnian does not understand what defamation is, and that it doesn't apply here. There are plenty of people whose names differ in different languages, (Charlemagne or Jesus Christ), and even within their usage in the same language (birth names of royalty, for example). I'll avoid places and things in this discussion. A reader in English is going to look for English, and can't even input most of the characters in other languages to search otherwise. We have titling policies and an MOS specific to English language WP, and those items must be adhered to. For example, a standard English keyboard can't input accents, and to take an example, I can't even spell Ceaucescu in Romanian if I wanted to. No Japanese, Chinese, Tibetan, Burmese, Russian, Greek, Thai, Arabic-speaking, or Korean person is ever listed in their native language on English WP because the characters can't be input directly. There is no need to make an exception for one language or one user, because it limits accessibility and usability of the encyclopedia. MSJapan (talk) 06:02, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I stand for common sense, respect for others and dignity. Hopefully I think others share the same values. This is the reason to let Alexandru Ioan Cuza to bear this own proper name. Saturnian (talk) 06:34, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The claim that it would be defamation and that it would deny Cuza's dignity shows who weird and ridiculous Romanian nationalism can get. There was a joke: "God, defend me from my friends, since my enemies I fear not." Such rudimentary claims project an image of dumbness and irrationality upon Romanian users. I am myself a Romanian and I have to distance myself from such awkward understanding of national pride: most educated Romanians are not like this. If "defamation" were a legal claim, no Romanian court would accept it, since the Romanian law limits such claims to living persons and, in case they are deceased, to their spouse and first degree relatives. It's an idle ambition of changing the title of the article, ambition born from xenophobic resentments. Tgeorgescu (talk) 20:29, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
And, if I remember well, defamation is no longer prosecuted as a crime in Romania, since the High Court canceled its prosecution. Tgeorgescu (talk) 21:59, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Wise words. But let me add: I don't think anyone actually took Saturnian's claim of defamation as an honest to God legal reference - it's simply ludicrous that anyone could actually conceive of this dispute here forming the grounds of a legal battle in real life. I'm saying that because, had this guy actually been perceived as handing out legal notices, he'd have been out of here, poll and all, in the first couple of minutes after stating it (in accordance with WP:NLT). Dahn (talk) 00:43, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

United Principalities

Dear followers, please give you vote also for Talk:United Principalities. -- Thanks, Saturnian (talk) 17:28, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

For opposers

Please read the following text:

At "Alexandru Ioan Cuza" University the students learn about Alexander John Cuza.
If you didn't laugh yet, please re-read the above sentence. :)) -- Saturnian (talk) 16:46, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I stsrted laughing when I read the move request. English does what English does; we are supposed to be written in English, not Romanian. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:50, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
OK, as "...supposed to be written in English", please change then Giorgio Napolitano to George Napolitano and Jacques Chirac to Jack Chirac. This is so funny :) Saturnian (talk) 16:57, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No, for (like - I suspect - Alexandru Ioan Cuza University) Jacques Chirac is usage. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:59, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Alexander John Cuza University is a defamation of this University and also a defamation of the person, Alexandru Ioan Cuza. As Jacques Chirac is not written as Jack Chirac, then we should no try to invent names. Saturnian (talk) 17:05, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Dear closer, is this a legal threat? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:08, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If it is, then do you will change you mind?  :)) Saturnian (talk) 17:17, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If it is, I will act accordingly; please follow the link before answering. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:00, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No. You didn't reply clearly to my question. Please do so first. Saturnian (talk) 18:02, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Puppets and canvass

Before we go on debating these issues, did anyone else notice that (in addition to his countless edits on all articles linking here), Saturnian has already canvassed the vote ([7], [8], [9], [10] etc.) and there are is at least one seemingly single-purpose account voting here and on his poll ([11])?

I find it hard to even discuss things over when that is the benchmark, let alone when this user repeatedly trolls by implying I'm anti-Romanian ([12], [13]). Admins out there? Dahn (talk) 00:38, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Dahn, the user Saturnian has made enough WP:NPA against you and other users for a warning to be issued, I'm not quite sure how to go about that, perhaps it has to be taken by a 3rd party to WP:ANI. On the bigger issue, as far as Admin help, or advice on how to attract 3rd party editors to keep "special interest" pages following WP:MOS, then probably Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) is the place to ask. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:38, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No, you are wrong. Dahn attacked me saying "don't you have anything better to do?" on Alexandru Macedonski article. Already I warned him "... your behavior, including personal attacks (like "don't you have anything better to do?"), is not a proper one. Thus, if you will continue, I will report you seriously". Do not try to distort the facts. Saturnian (talk) 05:42, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No facts distorted, Saturnian. I have already invited you to "report me seriously", as soon as possible, and let them know how that's a personal attack etc. You would in fact be sparing me the trouble of having to file a complaint on you (wikidrama and the sheer templates are such awful bores). Once you do that for me, we can discuss in one place what you consider to be acceptable and unacceptable behavior on wikipedia. I certainly don't need your bogus, bombastic, poisoning-the-well, self-referencing, pidgin warnings in the meantime - I warmly, calmly, gently invite you to file your complaint as soon as possible, and I'll be sure to expose myself to such scrutiny at a venue of your choosing. I have to be off soon, but if you do it by, say, later today, it'd be just peachy for me. Make sure you leave a tag informing me of the discussion, and I'll be sure to reply. Dahn (talk) 05:57, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Just irony which is not useful. The issue is about common sense, respect for others and dignity is not helpful. Until now, you did not argue why such values should not be applied to Alexandru Ioan Cuza and why he is punished to bear a such name. I stand for common sense, respect for others and dignity and hopefully I think others share the same values. Saturnian (talk) 06:19, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
(It's not irony, man: go do it. If you're vexed, seek your resolution.) I think I have repeatedly argued as to why this name is not exactly an abomination, for instance by pointing you to the sheer fact, the basic knowledge fact, the self-evident fact, that, in Romania, the names of ruling monarchs, not to mention regular historical figures, are Romanianized as such: Elisabeth -> Elisabeta, Pedro -> Petru, Piotr -> Petru, John -> Ioan, Alexander -> Alexandru, Giorgios -> Gheorghe etc. Do you understand this when I mention it the third time around, or is the English I'm using still too complicated and I need to literally draw you a picture? (As for the other issues: I know appeals to emotion work on the average overheated Romanian troll, but you're already embarrassing yourself and everyone else here with the "punishment", "dignity" etc. demagoguery. Really, the point for moving this article is not inarticulate, but you are effectively driving it into the ground with the drama and the mudslinging and the canvassing and the general obnoxiousness.) Dahn (talk) 06:32, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Just FYI, this same naming issue has occurred on Cuza's entry on List of Freemasons, also made by Saturnian, and the same title argument (English usage) was made by several others. MSJapan (talk) 05:52, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I asked you to explain why Alexandru Ioan Cuza is punished to bear denigrating name. You did not replay until now. This issue is about common sense, respect for others and dignity and nothing else. Saturnian (talk) 06:19, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Guys, can you please step back and take a break from all this scandal. It is not helping anyone. I understand that you can give a hard time to Saturnian based on Wikipedia policies, but he made a huge set of contributions on both Romanian and English WP around ancient history, particularly Roman Castra documentation. Look at all this tremendous work and give the guy a break. Ultimately Ioan or John are same thing...--Codrin.B (talk) 02:04, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Good cop-bad cop, Codrinb? Dahn (talk) 10:31, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Ale[c]sandru", if we're splitting hairs

Since there is no limit to the sort of half-truths that Saturnian is spreading about Cuza's "real name", let's note the following tidbits (which, of course, are entirely new to Saturnian, who only cares about rhetoric, and the other obscurantists de jour): to people in his generation, Cuza was never known as "Alexandru Ioan Cuza". "X" itself is a brand new letter in the Romanian alphabet, and the Romanian alphabet itself was only adopted in Cuza's reign.

You'll find that they spelled his name Alesandru Cuza here, page 215, right column), Alessandru Ioan (here, page 24), Alecsandru Cuza (here, page 466) or other such variations. The half-baked purist defense above, which claims to represent how Cuza wanted to spell his name, is twice ridiculous: Cuza never saw his name spelled "Alexandru". So let's cut through the hybris: if it's a crime against his dignity to call him "Alexander John", it's only as much as calling him "Alexandru Ioan". That "dignity" defense is horseshit.

(Incidentally, a fully developed version of this article will need to mention Cuza's name in the transitional version of Romanian Cyrillic.) Dahn (talk) 06:54, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Below, I'm reserving some room for Saturnian to call me anti-Romanian for actually knowing what it is I'm talking about. Go ahead. Dahn (talk) 06:57, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is funny :)) Why you are not more tolerant? Saturnian (talk) 07:52, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Of ignorance? Because I'm not ignorant. Dahn (talk) 10:37, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, great. Let's check that. If I could prove that you are ignorant, do you will support me from now on? Saturnian (talk) 16:21, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I never did support the move, son. Have a second look. What I a saying, and have said all along, is that I want to see ample reference, and assessment of evidence, as to why this page should be moved - it is personally irrelevant to me whether this page carries this name of the other; I'm resistant to whimsical changes, for practical reasons, and I am disgusted by you insidious editing of this and other articles, your canvassing, and your single-purpose sockpuppetry. But if clear-cut arguments and consensus for the change emerge, I will not oppose it. What I will invariably oppose is sciolism. Dahn (talk) 16:22, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Your answer is for a question I never asked. I ask again: If I could prove that you are ignorant, do you will support me from now on? (Yes/No) Saturnian (talk) 16:25, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Get someone to teach you better etiquette - these are not grown-up questions to ask, Saturnian. Dahn (talk) 16:30, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
See you avoided the answer meaning you have doubts about your ignorance. I hoped we will cooperate, so disappointing. Saturnian (talk) 16:36, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have not answered your question because it is childish and inflammatory, like most of the things you have posted on this here page. If there's anything you can say that is of substance, concerning the usage of the name, let's hear it. Btw, perhaps you can tell me if you can read the spelling used by the man in his own signature: File:Signature of Alexandru Ioan Cuza.png. Tolle, lege. Dahn (talk) 16:40, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
We could solved easily the dispute. I see the signature of this man of state written in Romanian; thanks for evidence. Saturnian (talk) 16:45, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Then presumably you also see how it is spelled "Alecsandru". As for the rest: I see you still didn't understand that part where I tell you that, even in Romanian, the name of ruling monarchs tends to be translated. Otherwise, maybe you can aslo note how the woman known in Romania as Elisabeta II likes to sign her own name. Ask a grown-up to explain, if you're still having difficulties grasping this analogy. Dahn (talk) 16:52, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No. You're still having difficulties grasping the difference between Alexander John Cuza and Michael I of Romania. I you admit translation of names, until now you were not able to change the Giorgio Napolitano to George Napolitano and Jacques Chirac to Jack Chirac. This paradox means that the reasoning mechanism you use is flawed. Saturnian (talk) 17:01, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The paradox only exists in your mind, Saturnian. Both Michael and Cuza were monarchs, in continuity to each other in fact (through Carol - who, btw, is "Karl"!). The sickeningly repetitious reference to Napoletano and Chirac is an ignoratio elenchi, yours: Cuza was not president, under any definition. Seriously, get yourself a history book. Dahn (talk) 17:10, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

ANI

It probably needs noting that this is subject of a note on Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Cuza_edit_warring. NB Saturnian, please see also WP:3RR. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:59, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

How to do simple searches on Google Scholar

I'll repost these links, as they may help, for example anyone before mentioning "Jack Chirac" again, please click on these links and then try "Jack Chirac"....

That is 1950-2011 in Google Scholar. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:59, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The first one leans heavily towards the University, but is very short on hits. The latter leans heavily towards non-English sources (interestingly enough), and I think it wise to indicate that even the university appears with both "Ioan" and "John" spellings (it's in both sets of listings). I believe it wise to rerun those listings omitting the "University" term and focusing on the person, as I believe the latter are hits on material by students at the university, and thus a derivative of what it attempting to be illustrated. MSJapan (talk) 03:07, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hi MSJapan, yes, for those who are familiar with the tool that would be a better search, but the simple search shows exactly what you've said above. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:24, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Given Saturnian's repeated failure to understand that there is grounds for translating royals' names into a target language (something that is done in Romanian as well, as I have shown), and the fact that his obnoxiously restated analogy is with republican heads of state, it is becoming quite clear that Saturnian simply believes that Cuza was a sort of president of Romania. And, with that, we have established the relevancy of his opinions.

There may be grounds for moving the article, for all we know, and other arguments stated in the poll may carry lots more weight than the "Jack Chirac" inanity, but whatever Saturnian did on the basis of that awful and sciolistic rationale counts as highly disruptive. And I'm not at all impressed by the claim that he should be left to his devices just because (Codrinb tells us) he once did some repetitious task for googlemaps. In fact, there may be grounds for analyzing the validity of this guy's entire wikipedia activity - if he can be this wrong about an issue, and if he will defend absurdities with as virulent entrenchment, I cannot help but wonder what he has done to other articles. Dahn (talk) 10:30, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Alexandru Ioan Cuza

The statement that only Romanian and English sources are using the Romanian name Alexandru Ioan Cuza is not correct. There are Italian, French, German and Spanich sources using Alexandru Ioan Cuza

  1. Encyclopedia of world constitutions by Gerhard Robbers – 2007
  2. The Encyclopedia Americana Grolier, 1985
  3. Encyclopedia Americana , Volume 30 Scholastic Library Pub., 2006
  4. Historical abstracts: Modern history abstracts, 1450-1914, Volume 47, by American Bibliographical Center, Eric H. Boehm 1996
  5. The Balkans: a post-communist history By Robert Bideleux, Ian Jeffries
  6. Die Hohenzollern in Rumänien: 1866 - 1947 ; eine monarchische ...by Gunter Klein edited by Edda Binder-Iijima
  7. Romania in Pictures by Ann Kerns 2006 Romania Mark Sanborne - 2004 -
  8. Myth, identity and conflict: A comparative analysis of Romanian and Serbian ... By Anamaria Dutceac Segesten, University of Maryland, College Park. Government and Politics By Anamaria Dutceac Segesten, University of Maryland, College Park. Government and Politics
  9. Romanian politics, 1859-1871: from Prince Cuza to Prince Carol by Paul E. Michelson
  10. Frommer's Eastern Europe By Mark Baker, Keith Bain, Angela Charlton, Heather Coombs, Pippa de Bruyn
  11. Romania A Country Study 2004 By Federal Research Division
  12. Romania: the unfinished revolution By Steven D. Roper
  13. Balkan identities: nation and memory by David Nikolaeva Sciulli, Maria Todorova and Walt Whitman 2003
  14. Encyclopedia of the Ottoman Empire By Gábor Ágoston, Bruce Alan Masters 2009
  15. Cahiers d'études romanes Issue 14, Parts 1-2 Institut des langues, littératures et civilisations romanes et d'Amérique Latine, Université de Provence., 2005
  16. Collier's encyclopedia: with bibliography and index Lauren S. Bahr, Bernard Johnston (M.A.), Louise A. Bloomfield - 1996
  17. Ethnic Groups of Europe: An Encyclopedia Jeffrey Cole 2011
  18. Donaukreuzfahrt By Hinnerk Dreppenstedt 2011
  19. Factors of Social and Economic Rural Development: A Case Study of the … By Paulin Giurgi
  20. Romania - Culture Smart!: The Essential Guide to Customs & Culture By Debbie Stowe 2010
  21. República de las letras: órgano de la Asociación Colegial de Escritores de España, Issues 86-87 2004 –Law (Spanish)
  22. Guia Del Mundo 2008/ Guide to the World 2008 By Instituto Del Tercer Mundo (COR) (Italian)
  23. Balkan studies: biannual publication of the Institute for Balkan Studies, Volume 10 Hidryma Meletōn Chersonēsou tou Haimou (Thessalonikē, Greece)

Changing the Romanian name Alexandru Ioan Cuza to a form Alexander John Cuza is found mostly in wikipedia sources but also few other

It would be also strange to change the followings

  • Ioan Evans
  • Ioan Gruffudd
  • Ioan Manu (19th century)
  • Ioan Sterca-Şuluţiu
  • Ioan al IV-lea Potcoavă
  • Ioan Petru Culianu or Couliano

I hope it helpsBoldwin (talk) 15:20, 6 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]