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Resource-based economy

Resource-based economy (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

This dispute only concerns the section titled 'Alternative use' on Resource-based economy. A paragraph based on citations from verifiable, reliable sources has been repeatedly deleted.

This is a [| diff] showing the paragraph.

Users involved

Who is involved in the dispute?

From looking at the talk page, OpenFuture and Earl King Jr. seem to have been involved with the article since at least 26 February 2012 and 12 March 2012‎, respectively. From the first day of their involvement in the article to date, the only major edits these two editors provided have been deletions/ reversions of edits. The deleted/ reverted edits were based on citations from verifiable, reliable sources. Their actions always reverted the article back to its skeletal, bare-bones, un-encyclopedic form.

Starting on 12 May 2012,‎ I began the process of providing several additional verifiable, reliable sources, and began to cite from these sources. Essentially all these citings have been deleted/ reverted by the two users above, always reverting the article back to its skeletal, bare-bones, un-encyclopedic form.

Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Yes.

N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=Resource-based economy}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

I tried to resolve this dispute many times on the talk page of Resource-based economy. Each time, the substance of my comments have been ignored (the two editors mentioned above have not responded to the substance of my arguments explaining that the paragraph above [defining the alternative use of RBE] is neutral, and that the paragraph is fully supported by the set of sources referenced at the end of the paragraph). Instead, the editors frequently voiced their personal opinions (not based on WP policies, rules, regulations or guidelines), or repeatedly used the talk page of the article as a forum for general discussion of the article's subject, instead of discussing specific, concrete, substantive issues directly related to improving the encyclopedic content of the article.

(Please note that some parts of the conversations on the talk page focused on issues related to the fact that I translated two verifiable, reliable foreign-language sources and used the translations (in addition to several verifiable, reliable English-language sources) to support my edits. You can probably ignore the substance of these particular portions of the conversations because over the last 2 days, with the help of editor CambridgeBayWeather, we seem to have resolved the issue of the translations, with the final result apparently being that the foreign-language sources can be used in citations and quotations to support my edits.)

Here are some talk-page diffs:

How do you think we can help?

Assess the merits of my edit. Determine (or recommend) which part(s), if any, of my suggested edits (the paragraph above providing an alternative definition of RBE) are not supported by the set of sources. If my suggested edits are inadequate to describe the alternative usage of RBE, suggest a proper alternative definition of RBE, based strictly on citations from the sources (referenced at the end of my suggested paragraph): The New York Times, The Huffington Post, The Palm Beach Post, The Orlando Sentinel, TheMarker, Globes (which are all verifiable, reliable secondary sources) and The Venus Project (a primary source). (Or, of course, any additional verifiable, reliable sources that describe the Technocracy Movement's, the Venus Project's and the Zeitgeist Movement's alternative usage of the term 'RBE', such as the six TV interviews listed on the Peter Joseph web site, etc.)

Thank you.

IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 05:48, 28 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Resource-based economy discussion

Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.

IjonTichyIjonTichy has no sources that support his changes. He adds a massive amount of sources, none which define Resource-based economy as he defines it. At best it is therefore WP:Synthesis.

We are also at least four editors that agree on a "best last version" that we want to use as the basis for improving the article, and we have asked IjonTichyIjonTichy to explain what he thinks is wrong with that version so we can discuss how to improve it, but IjonTichyIjonTichy refuses to engage in constructive debate, and even admits this on the talk page. The result was an edit war, but the page is currently protected to stop his repeated edits against consensus, so that is currently under control. --OpenFuture (talk) 06:08, 28 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(I added bobrayner and Night of The Big Wind as involved, and notified them, as they also have reverted IjonTichyIjonTichy's changes back to a "last good version", and hence also reasonably are involved in this). --OpenFuture (talk) 06:16, 28 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well put by User:OpenFuture: almost certainly WP:SYNTHESIS; 8 references for the last sentence, 2 references for the first sentence in the proposed section and everything else in the proposed section unsourced.Curb Chain (talk) 07:37, 28 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My involvement with the article is due to an earlier editwar at the article. I rewrote the article to a short version giving more honour to the original meaning of Resource Based Economy (an economy built on production and export of raw materials like ore and oil) instead of the Resource Based Economy theory from mr. Fresco/Venus Project/Zeitgeist Movement. As a compromise I have balanced both evenly. Reason for that is that the economy based explanation is far older and widespread, both on the internet rather poorly sourced. The ideology seems to be a tiny local project, capable of generating a enormous amount of publicity. Even with the balancing act, I regard the economy based explanation as severely undervalued in the article. The ideology I regard as severely overvalued. So when complainant added a total of 1,402 bytes (about 45%, previous size of the article was 3,114 bytes) to the article, all added to the ideology section, I removed that as giving undue weight to the ideology. And I still stand for that. Night of the Big Wind _talk 10:17, 28 May 2012 (UTC) after that, I took a break from the article[reply]

Complainant seems to be extremely interested in having been editing heavely on several RBE-ideology related pages. Is it possible for the complainant to explain his involvement in the Zeitgeist Movement (and related subjects), because of a possible Conflict of Interest? Night of the Big Wind _talk 10:26, 28 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There is no conflict of interest. I developed the Zeitgeist Movement article from a skeletal, un-encyclopedic version into something closer to an encyclopedic article. (It is not perfect but it is a huge improvement over the original.) In my edits, I included many citations and quotations from reliable sources providing relatively extensive criticism of many aspects of RBE (and TZM). IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 18:30, 28 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Page has been protected for 72 hours because of edit warring. --Guy Macon (talk) 11:12, 28 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I placed the protection, and any admin here is free to modify or remove without additional notification. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 11:35, 28 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at the page history, the protection was clearly the right thing to do. I am not going to name names at this point, but if an editor is edit warring, he/she needs to figure out a better way to resolve disputes. Wikipedia:Dispute resolution is ab excellent place to start learning. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:55, 28 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The editor in question could start with answering the questions posed to him. Like "What is wrong with the current version". He still hasn't answered that. --OpenFuture (talk) 16:08, 28 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

OpenFuture has been spamming my user talk page. I've removed his numerous comments but he keeps on spamming. What can be done to stop his Ad hominem attacks? Regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 16:46, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

This is untrue, and irrelevant for this dispute resolution. As it says above: "Please keep discussions here calm, concise, and on topic.". --OpenFuture (talk) 17:38, 28 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

OpenFuture continues to spam my user talk page. Can someone stop him please? IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 18:00, 28 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, he is asking you to stop your personal attacks. [12] Instead of doing so, you start censoring your talkpage from the inconvenient truth. Night of the Big Wind _talk 19:22, 28 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is also an outright lie, as you can see from the timestamps. I have in no way continued to do anything at his talk page after my comment above. --OpenFuture (talk) 19:45, 28 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Time stamp of my first request to stop spamming is 16:46, 28 May

Time stamp of [| most-recent spamming] is 17:25, 28 May

IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 23:15, 28 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am a volunteer clerk/mediator here at the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. The Dispute Resolution Noticeboard is for discussing disputes about article content, nor disputes about user conduct. If you are in a dispute about what is in the article, discuss what is in the article, not what other editors are doing or have done. If your dispute is only about user conduct, let us know and we will close this and point you to the right place to resolve that kind of dispute. If you think you have both kinds of dispute, put the editor conduct dispute on hold and work on the article conduct dispute.

I will have more to say on the actual article content dispute after I have studied the issue more. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:56, 28 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Here are three proposals for inclusion as the 'Alternative use' section of Resource-based economy. (Of course the references would need to be re-positioned to the end of sentences (etc.) to make the paragraph easier to read, including the bank of references at the end of the paragraph, and the spaces between references would need to be removed, etc.) IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 15:43, 29 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal no. 1: The paragraph I proposed above in this DRN request.

Proposal no. 2: A resource-based economy (RBE) can also mean a holistic global system in which all resources become the common heritage of all the inhabitants of the planet. ^[1]^[2]^[3] The Technocracy movement (TTM), the Venus project (TVP) and the Zeitgeist movement (TZM) use this alternative definition of RBE to mean a classless,^[1] moneyless,^[1]^[2]^[4]^[3]^[5]^[6] and stateless^[1]^[7] global system in which money,^[1]^[2]^[4]^[3]^[5]^[6] debt,^[2] credit,^[2] exchange,^[2]^[4] barter,^[2] wage labor (or any other system of servitude),^[2]^[3] private property^[1]^[6] and the profit motive^[4] would serve no purpose^[2] and all human needs such as food, housing, goods, services, etc. would be available to everyone^[1]^[2]^[7] and everything is supplied.^[1]^[2] In an RBE, resources would be managed as efficiently and carefully as possible through focusing on the technological potential of sustainable development.^[1]^[2]^[3] The premise upon which this global socio-economic system is based is the belief of TTM, TVP and TZM that the intelligent^[1]^[3] application of highly advanced science^[4]^[6] and technology^[1]^[4]^[5]^[6] can enable an Earth that is abundant with plentiful resources,^[1]^[2] enabling a high standard of living for all of the Earth's inhabitants,^[2]^[3] and thus TTM, TVP and TZM believe that our current practice of rationing resources^[2] through monetary methods is irrelevant and counter productive to our survival.^[2] It is toward this RBE idea that TTM, TVP and TZM work to educate and inform people.^[1]^[5] TTM, TVP and TZM believe that in RBE can create a sustainable future where humanity is not united by religious or political ideology,^[1] but by the scientific method,^[1]^[4] venerated as the savior that can develop a system of human equality,^[1]^[3]^[6] thriving from the cooperation and balance of technology and nature.^[1]

^[1] ^[2] ^[4] ^[3] ^[5] ^[6] ^[7]

Proposal no. 3: A resource-based economy (RBE) can also mean a holistic global system in which all resources become the common heritage of all the inhabitants of the planet. ^[1]^[2]^[3] The Technocracy movement (TTM), the Venus project (TVP) and the Zeitgeist movement (TZM) use this alternative definition of RBE to mean a moneyless,^[1]^[2]^[4]^[3]^[5]^[6] classless^[1] and stateless^[1]^[7] global system in which wage labor (or any other system of servitude),^[2]^[3] private property^[1]^[6] and the profit motive^[4] would serve no purpose^[2] and all human needs such as food, housing, goods, services, etc. would be available to everyone^[1]^[2]^[7] and everything is supplied.^[1]^[2] In an RBE, resources would be managed as efficiently and carefully as possible through focusing on the technological potential of sustainable development.^[1]^[2]^[3] The premise upon which RBE is based is the belief of TTM, TVP and TZM that the intelligent^[1]^[3] application of highly advanced science^[4]^[6] and technology^[1]^[4]^[5]^[6] can enable an Earth that is abundant with plentiful resources,^[1]^[2] enabling a high standard of living for all of the Earth's inhabitants.^[2]^[3]

^[1] ^[2] ^[4] ^[3] ^[5] ^[6] ^[7]

Proposal no. 4: A resource-based economy (RBE) can also mean a holistic global system in which all resources become the common heritage of all the inhabitants of the planet. ^[1]^[2]^[3] The Technocracy movement (TTM), the Venus project (TVP) and the Zeitgeist movement (TZM) use this alternative definition of RBE to mean a moneyless,^[1]^[2]^[4]^[3]^[5]^[6] classless^[1] and stateless^[1]^[7] global system in which wage labor (or any other system of servitude),^[2]^[3] private property^[1]^[6] and the profit motive^[4] would serve no purpose^[2] and all human needs such as food, housing, goods, services, etc. would be available to everyone.^[1]^[2]^[7] In an RBE, resources would be managed as efficiently and carefully as possible through focusing on the technological potential of sustainable development.^[1]^[2]^[3]

^[1] ^[2] ^[4] ^[3] ^[5] ^[6] ^[7]

This looks like a WP:COATRACK to me. The idea that there are economies that are largely based upon extraction of natural resources and others that are resource-poor is bog-standard economics theory. Linking a bunch of different political and economic theories to it with "A resource-based economy (RBE) can also mean" is classic coatracking that can just as easily be done with other basic economic concepts like labor, debt, investment, etc. The fact that the particular coats chosen are somewhat fringe (why not list what RBE "can also mean" to Republicans or Marxists?) makes it even worse. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:06, 29 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There's only one that needs to be mentioned, because only one can be shown to have notability, and that's the meaning that TVP/TZM uses. Having it be larger than the main section is indeed, IMO coat-racking. I think we all agree that it should be mentioned, just not how much and what it would say. --OpenFuture (talk) 19:49, 29 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Guy, if Republicans or Marxists, or any other group, also had their own definition of RBE, and the mainstream media covered these definitions in several verifiable, reliable sources (print and broadcast), would it not be reasonable to, say, create something like a disambiguation page on WP, with links to each of the definitions?

I propose to fully, completely, un-ambiguously separate the TTM/TVP/TZM definition of RBE from that of mainstream economics. T/T/T have very low opinion of mainstream economics; in fact they believe it is a complete fraud. In numerous video lectures and other presentations, T/T/T have voiced severe criticism of mainstream economics. The T/T/T definition of RBE has absolutely nothing to do with mainstream economics. The two concepts of RBE are divorced from each other and alienated from each other because of their irreconcilable differences, and they must be un-ambiguously separated. Any attempt to place the two fundamentally estranged, incompatible definitions on the same page is bound to failure. Even if somehow we succeed in placing these two different definitions on the same page in the short term, the effort is highly likely to fail overall in the longer term, necessitating additional DRN's (like this one) and likely going all the way to binding arbitration. I propose we solve this problem once and for all.

I propose creating a disambiguation page that looks perhaps something like this:

Resource-based economy may refer to:

* Resource-based economy, the economy of a country whose GDP to a large extent comes from natural resources

* Resource-based economy, a global system proposed by several alternative-views movements

If a reader selects the second link, they'll be taken to a page containing something like, say, one of the proposals above (no. 1, 2, 3 or 4) for the alternative definition of RBE.

IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 22:01, 29 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure there is not enough things to say about the TVP meaning of RBE to warrant it's own article, and I don't really see how it solves anything. It definitely doesn't solve this dispute. --OpenFuture (talk) 03:07, 30 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

To my opinion, the second sentence should read: * Resource-based economy, a proposed global system proposed by several fringe movements Night of the Big Wind _talk 14:20, 30 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That's acceptable to me. --OpenFuture (talk) 16:49, 30 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The TTM article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics and WikiProject Energy. TVP is within the scope of WikiProject Alternative Views. TZM is within the scope of WikiProject Alternative Views and WikiProject Rational Skepticism. That's why I propose alternative views (or rational skepticism). IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 20:20, 30 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You lost me. I don't follow what you are talking about here. --OpenFuture (talk) 20:51, 30 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I was responding to your and Night's comments regarding the second line of the proposed disambiguation page. I'm proposing the second line of the proposed disambiguation page read something like this:

* Resource-based economy, a global system proposed by several alternative-views movements

Or this:

* Resource-based economy, a global system proposed by several rational-skepticism movements

Or this:

* Resource-based economy, a global system proposed by several non-mainstream movements

IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 21:05, 30 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Calling it "rational-skepticism" is directly delusional. "Non-mainstream" could work, possibly. --OpenFuture (talk) 03:10, 31 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Good. If you are OK with "non-mainstream", I'm OK with it too. Regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 19:32, 31 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, I just see one editor passionately wanting his version into the article and several other who like to see the article neutral. This start to look like POV-pushing. Night of the Big Wind _talk 14:06, 30 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

IjonTichyIjonTichy has no sources that support his changes. He adds a massive amount of sources, none which define Resource-based economy as he defines it. At best it is therefore WP:Synthesis. I think it is massive p.o.v. pushing also. That section, the best last version was fine and got the job done. Having that section with 10 citations to one sentence that do not really explain anything but give more revolving information is pointless and seems advertising. Accusing the other editor of spamming a talk page is down right wrong and seems way over the top uncivil and now used for garnering sympathy here. Forget the idea of saying several of these fringe groups want world wide R.B.E. - The Technocracy groups doesn't. None of these groups are connected to each other. Venus Project does not like Zeitgeist and vice versa. Lumping them together as the same thing is not proper. IjonTichyIjonTichy seems to be trying to wear everyone down. The spare last best version leads to all the groups mentioned. Right now that can stay. Some work went into making it pretty good. Earl King Jr. (talk) 14:27, 31 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The current skeletal, substance-free, un-encyclopedic version of the alternative-definition section in the article still defines TTM's, TVP's and TZM's definition of RBE as "an economic theory in which things such as goods, services and information are free." Which, as I explained earlier (on the article's talk page) in several comments that were ignored (please see the diffs above), is a meaningless, empty statement that could also describe a prison camp, a jail, a gulag, concentration camps, and other places of detention or confinement. Or military service. Or an orphanage.

IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 17:08, 31 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This shows the problem with allowing a WP:COATRACK. It appears that the other editors have tried to accommodate the POV pushing by allowing a small coatrack with a vest or two hanging on it. The results is a complaint about not allowing the full coatrack and the entire collection of coats. I say get rid of the coatrack altogether. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:21, 31 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No. None of the things you listed above are economic theories. The claim that a gulag is "an economic theory in which things such as goods, services and information are free" is beyond absurd. --OpenFuture (talk) 21:30, 31 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Has anyone considered a hatnote like "For the moneyless economy advocated by [group], see that group's article"? —Tamfang (talk) 19:31, 31 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm OK with this proposal. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 19:36, 31 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds like a good solution. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:43, 31 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The main problem with that is that The Venus Project contains zero information on the topic. Trying to improve that article proved fruitless before, maybe it could work now. --OpenFuture (talk) 21:30, 31 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What about the two other utopian articles that begin with "The"? —Tamfang (talk) 22:19, 31 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Has anyone considered a hatnote like "For the moneyless economy advocated by [group], see that group's article"? That is treating people like children that need to be led along. Bad idea. Right now the article is fairly good. All the groups mentioned in that section have links that go to their own articles if people click them. Its overkill to help people or lead people that way. A Prison camp, a jail, a gulag, concentration camps, and other places of detention or confinement military service, orphanage??, being a logical part of the discussion??, comparing that to what we are talking about? No. IjonTichyIjonTichy is not making constructive argguments, has no support for his or hers changes on the article, is bashing fellow editors about spam and vandalizing. Best course is to give a time out to IjonTichyIjonTichy|IjonTichyIjonTichy, maybe ask him not to edit the article for a while since zero people support what he is doing and he is not listening to feedback on his edits, just doing the same types of over kill information things based on o.r. p.o.v. syn. Earl King Jr. (talk) 02:03, 1 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Let me take each of your arguments in order.

First, hatnotes are not "treating people like children." They are a legitimate part of Wikipedia's disambiguation system. You can dispute whether a hatnote is needed in this particular case, but questioning the basic concept of hatnotes will not get you far.

Second, whether the current article is fairly good is a matter of opinion. In my opinion it is not. It gives too much WP:WEIGHT to the fringe theories. I think a hatnote is a better choice.

Third, the prison/jail/gulag argument was a legitimate argument. It wasn't a convincing argument, but it makes a fair point -- that the fringe theories that IjonTichyIjonTichy wants to coatrack are not well described by just saying things are free. Some things (food, shelter) are free in a prison, but hat's not what the fringe theories are talking about. That is why the hatnote is a good idea; it leads the interested reader to the actual articles on those fring theories where they can be properly described.

Fourth, "has no support for his or hers changes" is exactly correct. IjonTichyIjonTichy has to deal with the fact that the consensus is against him. That being said, he is doing the right thing here; proposing alternatives and trying to gather support for them. It would be wrong to not examine and fairly evaluate the alternatives he suggests.

Lastly, as for telling IjonTichyIjonTichy to stop editing the article, that's not going to happen. He has just as much right to edit as you or I do. Of course we all have to follow such key policies as WP:CONSENSUS, but we do not gang up and exclude someone just because they have a minority opinion. --Guy Macon (talk) 10:12, 1 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah o.k. points taken, but, the guy IjonTichyIjonTichy is edit warring and accusing others of vandalizing, censoring and spamming. That is why the hatnote is a good idea; it leads the interested reader to the actual articles on those fring theories where they can be properly described. I don't think its a good idea because if people have any interest they can click on the main three articles in Resource-based economics, all of which explain things in detail about the three subjects. I am also just trying to help IjonTichyIjonTichy here because I am afraid he is going to be blocked or prohibited from editing this article in question at some point. That is the only reason I only suggested he take a break since his editing tactics have been rejected on the talk page of the article. So please mister User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon lay off. I did not come here to gang up on anyone. Also it is a well known fact that Wikipedia does gang up on people and that editing teams control many articles. I do not think that is the case on this article in question. Assume good faith here Mr. Guy Macon as I do not like this interaction accusation style. Earl King Jr. (talk) 10:46, 1 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Guy Macon is making valid arguments and he is right. And I apologize for accusing OpenFuture of vandalizing, censoring and spamming. I can see now that these accusations were baseless and unwarranted, and OpenFuture has every right to be upset and angry at me. I was a less experienced editor at the time that I made the accusations. (I am a little bit more experienced now after collaborating with so many great editors over the last 7 days in improving The Zeitgeist Movement, but I am still not anywhere as experienced as any of the editors involved in this DRN).

I have not edited the article since it was unlocked, and I have no intention of doing so without following key policies such as WP:CONSENSUS, because I have full confidence that Guy Macon, OpenFuture, Tamfang, Arthurfragoso and other interested editors would continue to do a good job in improving the article (of course, if the consensus is that an improvement is needed). Regards and best wishes, IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 17:39, 1 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oy, everybody cool down! Nobody is ganging up on anyone, and nobody is telling people to stop editing, and nobody needs to lay off anything!

We're just saying that it would be good if IjonTichyIjonTichy discussed his controversial changes first.

For the hatnote, it has to go to The Venus Project is implemented, and that means that article has to be improved first. We can maybe "Gang up" on the article? --OpenFuture (talk) 11:20, 1 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree fully. This is a good idea/ action-plan. 12:52, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Suggestion: remove all mention of the alternative use of the term. There is really no good reason to have an 'alternative use' section. For example, an increasing number of Zeitgeist movement members are moving away from using the term RBE, including some of the main spokespersons for the movement. In several recent lectures, presentations or conversations over the last few months, Peter Joseph stated he is moving away from the term 'resource based economy' and instead using terms such as 'a new global system' etc. Please see my most recent edit of The Zeitgeist Movement. You'll notice that my edit does not mention the term 'resource-based economy', nor its abbreviation, RBE. Regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 20:06, 5 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The reason TZM is moving away from it is because they have split with The Venus Project and want to distance themselves form their terminology. It's all very childish. TVP still uses the term, unfortunately. But it does make the case for a hatnote solution stronger. --OpenFuture (talk) 14:03, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As a unabashed pro Zeitgeist editor IjonTichyIjonTichy that just reverted The Zeitgeist Movement article against all consensus and I do mean all consensus, I think you are not improving the article and some intervention about your editing the article should be made since as a type of spokes person for the so called movement you are only interested in special interest group edits and have ruined the objectivity and neutrality of the article over and over by returning information that is against consensus. Sorry but that is the pattern which is holding holding and holding and no amount of reasoned consensus on the talk page seems to dissuade you from edit warring your own Zeitgeist party line view of things. Earl King Jr. (talk) 00:31, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Gentlemen, I do not believe that WP:DRN can help you with this issue. It appears to be a ~~WP:RFCU~~ WP:RFC/U issue. Unless someone can give me a reason to believe that keeping this open longer will help, I am going to mark it unresolved and close it. --Guy Macon (talk) 09:17, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Did you mean WP:RFC/U? —Tamfang (talk) 18:23, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Thanks for catching that. (Note to self: next time, smoke crack after editing Wikipedia.) --Guy Macon (talk) 17:24, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Either completely remove all mention of the alternative use of the term RBE (because an increasing number of Zeitgeist movement members are moving away from using the term RBE, as discussed above), or significantly expand the alternative use to correctly describe TTM's, TVP's or TZM's usage of the term. The current description is incorrect. The most important aspect of TTM, TVP and TZM is this: "A holistic global system in which all resources become the common heritage of all the inhabitants of the planet."^[1]^[8]^[3]. This phrase must be included, because this is the most important core idea, the most important fundamental principle of TTM, TVP and TZM. This core idea implies that, for example, Tom Harrison "owns" all the resources on the planet, making him an enormously wealthy person. The only condition is that he share this wealth equitably with everyone else on the planet, making everybody else on the planet also wealthy. Any WP editor may choose to laugh at this idea, to ridicule it, to think it is delusional nonsense, to think it is promotional, or to think it is empty rhetoric, utopianism, communism or socialism. Editors' thoughts, feelings, POV and opinions are valid and important. I respect, recognize and acknowledge editors' thoughts, feelings, POV and opinions. But this is the most important aspect of TTM, TZM and TVP, and it must be included, or the 'alternative use' section must be removed completely. This aspect of the 3 organizations is the basis of everything TTM, TVP and TZM stand upon. Everything else about TTM, TVP and TZM follows from this idea, is based upon this idea and builds upon this idea.

From The Huffington Post: "... the world's resources would be considered as the equal inheritance of all the world's peoples ..."

From The Venus Project: "... a holistic socio-economic system in which ... all resources become the common heritage of all of the inhabitants, not just a select few ..."

From the Palm Beach Post: "... In this world, we all are equal because the planet's resources belong to everyone, not a select few ..."

This is the most important aspect of TTM, TVP and TZM because, in their view, once everyone on the planet "owns" everything on the planet equitably, there would be no need for money, class, or different countries/ states. That's why in my suggested edits (Proposals no. 1--4 above), I first provide the most important aspect of TTM, TVP and TZM, followed by the following, based on verifiable citations from our set of reliable sources: "This system would be a moneyless, classless, and stateless global system in which money, debt, credit, exchange, barter, wage labor, private property and the profit motive would be eliminated. Human needs would be supplied for everyone. Resources would be managed as efficiently and carefully as possible through the technological potential of sustainable development." [I added the explanation "economic development that meets the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs" only later, to satisfy Zazaban's request for clarification. This clarification is probably not needed, since readers can find it in the article on sustainable development ]. ^[1]^[8]^[4]^[3]^[5]^[6]^[7]

IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 18:19, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

OK, let's do a quick poll. Place your name without comment under one of the following, and optionally, add a brief comment explaining your vote in the comment section. -Guy Macon (talk) 17:45, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

How should the alternative meanings be mentioned?

HAT NOTE

NO MENTION AT ALL

Tamfang (talk) 14:37, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 17:37, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
~~Guy Macon (talk) 19:27, 10 June 2012 (UTC)~~ ^{Vote withdrawn.}[reply]

IN THE TEXT, LINK ONLY

IN THE TEXT, EXPANDED

OTHER (SEE COMMENT)

COMMENTS

I Don't much like "In the text, link only", but I like it a lot better than I like "In the text, expanded". --Guy Macon (talk) 19:27, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm assume "expanded" means something like what it says at the moment, which I'm OK with. --OpenFuture (talk) 01:35, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I am ok with what it says at the moment also.

Comparison of rugby league and rugby union

Comparison of rugby league and rugby union (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

I (Aircorn) first came upon the general topic of the dispute after Gnevin posted at the Rugby union Wikiproject looking for help in dealing with a quote being in the lead. He also posted the same notification at the Rugby league Wikiproject. After some discussion the quote was moved out of the lead. There was still some disagreement about how the quote should be used or if it even belongs in the article. After both myself and Gnevin were unsuccessfully in trying to remove it, Gnevin found a similar quote and added it next to the original one. Gibson Flying V removed this quote and that has lead to a protracted discussion as to why one quote is valid but the other not. The original quote is pro-league, while the second one was pro-union. The diffs presented here are just a fraction of the reverting that has occurred over this issue. These two recent reverts [13] [14] (on slightly different issues) have convinced me to look for outside help.

Users involved

Who is involved in the dispute?

Mattlore (talk · contribs) commented initially, but has not made any further comments. Two users also responded at the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Comparison of rugby league and rugby union over a related issue. That concern was the quote being in the lead, which appears to have been resolved now. I will notify Mattlore, but at this stage I have not notified the two users from the NPOV noticeboard. Let me know if that should be done.

Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Yes

N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=Comparison of rugby league and rugby union}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

Talk:Comparison of rugby league and rugby union#Moving on and User talk:Gibson Flying V#Comparison of rugby league and rugby union are where the bulk of the discussion has occurred, but you might also like to read Talk:Comparison of rugby league and rugby union#Quote in the intro for a bit more background.

How do you think we can help?

We need more people with a neutral perspective (i.e. not in favour of one sport over another) to look over the dispute concerning the quotes and help us decide what the most nuetral way to present them is. The options are no quotes, both quotes or to just have one of the quotes. They could also be incorporated into the text of the article. The talk page discussions detail our particular preferences. Advice on any other issues would be a bonus and if possible it would be good to provide a way forward if other similar issues arise. Thank you to anyone who is willing to look into this.

AIRcorn (talk) 06:40, 30 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comparison of rugby league and rugby union discussion

Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.

Hello everyone, and thanks for bringing this dispute here. I'm a semi-regular mediator/clerk here at DRN, and I thought I'd try and lend a helping hand with this problem. This is quite an interesting dispute as the three editors involved are all regulars at Wikipedia, so we are all familiar with the policies and guidelines, and we have all probably been in a dispute or two before. An upshot of our collective experience is that naturally we all know the neutral point of view policy and have had the opportunity to put it into practice many times. Something seems to be going wrong somewhere in this article, however, as we are all claiming that our edits are neutral, but we are disagreeing about each other's interpretations of what being neutral actually means. So, before we look at any specific content issues, I would just like to throw out a suggestion for a guiding principle of neutrality as it applies to this article. Now, this is only a suggestion, and you are all free to disagree with it - that is absolutely fine. I would like us to discuss it first, though, as I think that once we have agreed about this general idea it will be a lot easier to find a resolution for the specific content issues that we have been having problems with.

My suggestion is simple: I think that, in this article, we should treat rugby league and rugby union as having equal worth. That is to say, we shouldn't imply in any way that one of them is better than the other. Now, one sport may be faster than the other, and one may be more tactical, and mentioning that is no problem, as long as we can back it up with facts and statistics rather than leave it as assertion and opinion. The problems arise when we start to use these differences in the character of each sport to imply a subjective judgement of good or bad about either of them. Now, as far as I know (which is admittedly not very far), there is no way of objectively judging which sport is "better" than the other, and I make this suggestion because I think it would be best not to try. However, I would be interested to hear what you all think of this. If you think I have tripped up in my reasoning somewhere, then please let me know - that would be a great way to kick-start the debate. (Of course, it's ok to agree with me as well. ;) I'll be looking forward to hearing your opinions. Best regards — Mr. Stradivarius ^{(have a chat)} 13:54, 30 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

~~To be honest I'm not sure I agree with your reading of the situation.~~ While I'm not a RL man myself I don't consider it to be of less worth than union. Also while I personally feel union is more enjoyable to watch than league I know that that is my opinion, just as I know that it's my opinion that blue is the best colour or it's better to be warm than cold. I am aware of my baggage and I try not let it effect my editing of RL ,colours or what ever else. I've only attempted to tidy this article and remove some pieces of the blatant NPOV.

My reading of the situation is we have 1 user to is blatantly pushing the POV that RL is a superior game and using what ever they can find on the internet as stick to beat union.

I think what we need is an agreement that sources outside of wiki can be biased too and that just because it's printed in a newspaper or the internet doesn't mean we should use it a reference Gnevin (talk) 17:20, 30 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

To be fair I think you both are agreeing really. Treating league and union as equal is the reasonable approach, any other way would be a POV. Even comments around which is faster and which is more tactical is debatable, both can be played at different speeds and both require tactics. If this approach, as suggested by Mr. Stradivarius, is used then I think you end up with the result advocated for by Gnevin; the quote doesn't have a place, and certaintly not in the intro. I don't think you need an overarching "determination" on the validility of sources or anything along those lines to reach this point.

For the record, I am part of the rugby league wikiproject and prefer that sport over the other.

Also, just to make it black and white (because it had me very confused for a while) User Gibson Flying V was known as User Jeff79 at the start of this dispute. Mattlore (talk) 22:10, 30 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry I should have mentioned the Jeff79 = Gibson Flying V fact earlier. As far as I know this board does not necessarily deal with user conduct, but this may be a path we have to go down. I thought this might be a less drama filled alternative and after consensus was agreed (admittedly grudgingly) at the NPOV noticeboard, I hoped it might prove successful here too. As far as the article goes I echo Mattlore in saying that Gnevin and Mr. Stradivarius are on the same page, one that I agree with too. If we can keep opinions out of the article altogether it would make it much easier to manage. AIRcorn (talk) 00:30, 31 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Misread Mr. Stradivarius' comments looks like we are all on the same page Gnevin (talk) 08:36, 31 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Naturally I too agree with you, Mr Strativarius. While for most experienced editors it goes without saying, I think it's good for Gnevin and Aircorn to read what you said about avoiding subjective judgement of good or bad. Perhaps you said it because you noticed their use of colourful language such as "pro/anti-league/union"; "which is the better game"; "favour one code over the other"; "say a lot harsher things"; "show RL in a good light"; "horrible quotes"; "a pissing contest"; etc. It's also clear they're having trouble assuming good faith and have become a bit emotional about me personally, attempting to paint me as the villain with dramatic stuff like "fighting tooth and nail against consensus"; "your other slanted edits"; "Your [sic] adopting an entirely hypocritical approach"; "The charges you level"; "blatantly pushing the POV that RL is a superior game"; etc. One thing I'm particularly curious about is what Aircorn is suggesting above when he said regarding my user name: "As far as I know this board does not necessarily deal with user conduct, but this may be a path we have to go down." As (apparently) one of the "400 most active Wikipedians" I'll typically be undertaking more than one little project at a time. That I changed my user name during discussions about this article is purely coincidental. I don't think anyone would begrudge a user the right to change a 5-year-old ID that was comprised of their real name and year of birth, would they? Anyway, I'm pleased that Aircorn has brought more people into this, although I think it will bear as little fruit for him as his last attempt. I'm afraid we do need to get specific though, because the crux of it is this: Gnevin and Aircorn are on a mission to have the dreaded New York Times quote (and possibly other well-sourced content) not merely shifted, but removed from the article altogether. To help them achieve this, they've created some nice big chunks of text between the pair of them on various talk pages to make it appear as though there's a real debate going on (a tactic I'm sure you've seen before). I've done my best to refuse joining the party as most of this "debate" has centred around their intriguing view that a quote from a player who was at the time recently paid to leave rugby league and play rugby union is just as valuable and deserves equal prominence as a quote from a New York Times journalist (who I will go out on a limb and say is completely neutral and disinterested). They appear to be hoping that when the player's quote is rightly removed the baby will get thrown out with the bathwater. The article was an unreferenced perma-stub made up of various anonymous IPs' POVs until I came along and started adding referenced content. When I was choosing sources, I set an especially high standard and used, amongst others, a sports science textbook and a reputable American newspaper. I decided that British/Australian/New Zealand newspapers would be unsuitable as even they are too close to the subject. Recently, I attempted to add the use of an article (about rugby union) from a Canadian newspaper, which I thought was another shining example neutrality, but was knee-jerk reverted without discussion. By comparison, when I removed the quote box containing the player's words, I then said on the talk page that it would be fine to use if properly contextualised. An option so far not taken up, apparently in favour of simply expelling all independent sources. Personally, I'd prefer to represent fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources.--Gibson Flying V (talk) 11:13, 31 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Great, it looks like we are all agreeing about the basic need for neutrality in the article. Now, I notice that there have been a fair few personal remarks made about editors in the discussions so far. There has been nothing terribly bad, and I have definitely seen much worse in my experiences mediating. However, it is vital to remember that any remark which focuses on the contributor and not on the content runs the risk of escalating this dispute, and to resolve this to everyone's satisfaction we all need to stop making these kind of remarks, right now. I suggest that for the duration of this dispute, you all make a conscious effort to avoid mentioning the other editors in your posts at all. In the vast majority of situations it is possible to rephrase comments that mention editors into comments that only talk about content. To take an entirely hypothetical example, it is ok to say that a certain passage in the article makes one sport seem "better" than the other; it is not ok to say, or even merely to imply, that the editor who wrote this passage is biased.
So, on to the content at hand. I think for now, we had better check that we all agree about the basic properties of the New York Times quote. This should be a simple process of observation, but I've learned that you can never be too careful with these things, so I want to make sure that we all agree about this before we move on to more delicate matters. I would summarize the quote as follows:

The source it appears in, the New York Times, is top-quality.
Ian Thomsen is a respected sports journalist, and this was also true in 1995 when he wrote the article.
Thomsen does not have any conflict of interest regarding rugby league or rugby union.
The quote is Thomsen's own subjective opinion.
The quote portrays rugby league as a better sport than rugby union.

Would you all say that this is a fair characterization? If you have any objections, or any other points you think I have missed, feel free to outline them below. Best — Mr. Stradivarius ^{(have a chat)} 14:04, 31 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I changed your list to a numbered list , hope you don't mind Gnevin (talk) 14:48, 31 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Would agree with all of the above . I think the key point is 4 it's an opinion
I also think it's worth noting that the source is hopelessly outdated . RU has changed in so many ways since that quote was wrote including many affects of becoming professional Gnevin (talk) 14:48, 31 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Full quote from the source is Thirteen-man rugby league has shown itself to be a faster, more open game of better athletes than the other code. Rugby union is trying to negotiate its own escape from amateurism, with some officials admitting that the game is too slow, the laws too convoluted to attract a larger TV following; nonetheless, compared to the popularity of rugby union's World Cup in South Africa last June, the rival version this month has disappointed. From a historical perspective 1995 was the year rugby became professional. Thomsen is basically comparing a professional sport to a sport still mostly made up of amateurs (or players that have only just turned professional). Seventeen years is a long time in sport after such a major change. Among other things the laws, which have been mentioned in the quote, have undergone changes since then. Comparing the Ashton quote using the same criteria you get:

The source it appears in, the The Independant, is top-quality.
Ashton is a respected sportsman, and this was still true in 2011 when he was quoted in the article.
Ashton has a conflict of interest regarding rugby league and rugby union, having played both.
The quote is Ashton's own subjective opinion.
The quote portrays rugby union as a better sport than rugby league.

If the only concern is the conflict of interest then there are other sports journalists out there that could be used. In the end there are strong opinions both ways when it comes to these sports and the only neutral way is to present both or neither. AIRcorn (talk) 22:41, 31 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree 100% with Mr Stativaruis' analysis. I apologise in advance if I'm jumping ahead here, but I would add regarding point 4 that while it is Thomsen's subjective opinion, it is not a subjective opinion in the same sense as artistic preference or favouring winter over summer. He is commenting on observable, measurable phenomena, and while he has not quantified these, others have. Sources in the article (plus the National Post one inexplicably removed) confirm his observation that rugby league is the faster of the two, making it closer to a fact than an opinion (I would also like to mention that faster does not necessarily equate to better, and it would be a subjective opinion in itself to assume that it does). That rugby league is "more open" can be attributed to the undisputed fact that it has 26 men on the field as opposed to rugby union's 30. In addition to what Aircorn says above about union's amateurism at the time, in the 'Gameplay' section of the article it is confirmed that rugby league is more physically demanding, lending support to the "better athletes" comment. Regarding rugby union being "too slow, the laws too convoluted to attract a larger TV following" you'll all have noticed that he actually assigns this view to "some (rugby union) officials". I've not found other sources for this, but I'm willing to trust in Thomsen's journalistic integrity and assume that this is something he did actually observe. Lending support to the television viewing figures aspect is the fact that Australia's late-night viewing record set by the 1991 rugby union world cup final was subsequently broken by the 1992 rugby league world cup final[15]. I would also add a 6th point or an addendum to the 5th: It portrays rugby league in 1995 in a better light than rugby union in 1995. The good thing about using the quote box as it appears now alongside the part of the 'History' section that deals with the 1990s is that it is "frozen in time" if you like. I don't think the Thomsen quote would be, or is intended to be, taken as contemporary or timeless.--Gibson Flying V (talk) 21:15, 1 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The reference from the National Post mentioned in Gibsons Flying V's last two posts that was removed by myself and Gnevin is not inexplicable, an explanation is provided on the talk page[16]. We have both [17] [18] also invited him to discuss it there. Anyway two, three or more people having the same opinion does not make something a fact. No matter what way it is spun it is someones opinion on how the game was in 1995. I think it could possibly be worked into the text next to where it talks about the switch to professionalism, something like this. It is better editing style in any case. AIRcorn (talk) 23:59, 2 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - The lead of the article should not include any quotes, nor should it contain any judgmental material. The reason is that there is not enough room in the lead to give the appropriate context which is needed to help the reader interpret the judgements. On the other hand, the body of the article can and should contain judgements and opinions of important commentators on rugby. The WP:NPOV policy requires that all viewpoints be represented fairly in the article. Generally speaking, editors should put aside their own prejudices and try to make the article as unbiased and objective as possible. Quotes from notable commentators are appropriate for inclusion, however, the quotes should not be hand-selected by editors; instead, any quotes used should be quotes that were selected by secondary sources. In other words, a quote should be included only if a secondary source writing about rugby mentions the quote. --Noleander (talk) 06:53, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, what Noleander said. :) As far as I am aware there is no requirement to stick to quotes that have been selected by secondary sources, but in cases like this where quotes are controversial I think this would be a very good way of keeping all the involved parties honest about what they include. There are a number of points in WP:QUOTE that I was going to bring up as well, but if we can agree to this then it probably won't be necessary to go through all of them. So, would you all be willing to give this principle a try? I'm not sure there are any secondary sources that quote either Ashton or Thomsen, but I bet that there are plenty of other juicy quotes listed in the secondary sources. — Mr. Stradivarius on tour ^{(have a chat)} 06:55, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have any suggestions about how to present these, or similar, quotes (box or intext). Personally if we are going with quotes I would like to keep them short According to such and such union is "much slower than league", while Chris Ashton says union has "much more of a tactical side". Also when you say selected by secondary sources do you mean a newspaper quoting someone as opposed to us quoting a newspaper? I ask because if that is the case then the Ashton one could pass as it is sourced by Hugh Godwin[19]. AIRcorn (talk) 08:05, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If the fate of the New York Times quote is to hinge on how controversial it is, I would ask that this question be looked at thoroughly. For reasons I've outlined above I remain to be convinced that the quote is (outside the talk pages of Wikipedia) controversial at all.--Gibson Flying V (talk) 08:19, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, when I said "controversial" I was specifically talking about that the fact that the quote has been disputed on the talk pages of Wikipedia. So it looks like your answer to my question above is a "no", then. :) For now, let's just bear that solution in mind should we get stuck later on, and move on to the next step. Now, we've agreed that we shouldn't treat rugby league or rugby union as subjectively better or worse than each other, and we have also agreed that the New York Times quote portrays ~~rugby union~~ rugby league as a better sport than ~~rugby league~~ rugby union. So the question now would seem to be how we reconcile these two facts. Here's what WP:QUOTE has to say about it:

"Where a quotation presents rhetorical language in place of more neutral, dispassionate tone preferred for encyclopedias, it can be a backdoor method of inserting a non-neutral treatment of a controversial subject into Wikipedia's narrative on the subject, and should be avoided."
"As a matter of style, quoteboxes should generally be avoided as they draw special attention to the opinion of one source, and present that opinion as though Wikipedia endorses it. Instead of using quoteboxes to highlight its notability, explain its importance before introducing the quote or in an introduction to the quote."
"Intersperse quotations with original prose that comments on those quotations instead of constructing articles out of quotations with little or no original prose."

And here's how I see the quote faring in relation to these three points:

We definitely have to be careful here. We have agreed that the quote itself is not neutral (i.e. it favours rugby union), so if we do include it we need to make sure that we present it in a way that preserves the overall neutrality of the article.
As it is, the quote stands out prominently, and readers' eyes are drawn towards it. Because of this, WP:QUOTE implies that the prominence of the quote makes it seem as though Wikipedia endorses Thomsen's opinion. With nothing to counteract that prominence, this would indeed seem to create a neutrality problem. Also, the importance of the quote is not explained.
Though the quote is indirectly related to the text around it by being made in the historical context of the move to professionalism in 1995, this may not be immediately clear to readers unfamiliar with the subject. For instance, Thomsen is not mentioned in the text, and neither is the speed of the game or the quality of the athletes, both integral parts of the quote.

From this analysis, there do appear to be problems with the way the quote is used in the article, and it seems that something needs to be done to reduce the emphasis on the quote, whether that is by better putting it in context, or by introducing contrasting viewpoints. Gibson Flying V, would you agree with this analysis, and if not do you have any suggestions on how it can be improved? Best — Mr. Stradivarius ^{(have a chat)} 11:25, 5 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

portrays rugby union as a better sport than rugby league have you mixed up your codes? Gnevin (talk) 11:35, 5 June 2012 (UTC)?[reply]

Whoops, yes, I have, d'oh... fixed it now. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{(have a chat)} 12:08, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

99.8% Agree :) While it's true we have agreed that the quote portrays mid-90s league in a better light than mid-90s union, we also agreed that the source of the quote is of exceptional neutrality and quality. This inherent neutrality (plus the fact that it is in no way contradicted by any other reliable source) is what makes it deserving of a quote box's prominence. I'd be very surprised if a reader would not want to see what a disinterested observer has to say on the matter (especially if it's a senior Sports Illustrated and New York Times sportswriter). I also don't beleive a quote's use has a neutrality problem if it's simply confirming what all significant views that have been published by reliable sources are about a topic. So, as for what to do to reduce the emphasis on the quote:

a) better putting it in context

Nothing is gained by incorporating the quote into the body text along the lines of "In 1995 Ian Thomsen, sportswriter of the New York Times wrote..." as this is what the quote box already communicates. It would certainly reduce its prominence, but for reasons I've already mentioned, I believe this also reduces the article's informativeness. I'd also like to remind everyone that consensus was already established for the quote appearing in a section lower down in the article. After I moved it to the 'History' section, the issue would have been dead and buried. However the quote was then moved to the 'Gameplay' section alongside a union-contracted player's quote, resulting in the 'controversy' we now have here.

b) introducing contrasting viewpoints

Naturally, I've got no problems with this. Can we all agree that these additional viewpoints' sources be held to a similar standard of neutrality and quality?--Gibson Flying V (talk) 11:45, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

When a quote is in a box, people will not necessarily read the quote along with the rest of the article. What is gained by incorporating it into the text is that the reader has to read it in context. We don't even need to quote it, it could just be paraphrased (which fits in with the general consensus here to use quotes quoted from secondary sources). The only reason to keep it in a quote box is to draw readers attention to it and there needs to be a good reason to do so. This is especially true in an article like this, where that quote could easily be interpretated as promoting one sport over another. I also think it is a stretch to suggest that the previous noticeboard established consensus for the quote to be used, but in any case the one person who said it should be used in a paragraph further down clarified that It should be introduced with something like "in the 1990s one commentator said...", which is not putting it into a quote box. AIRcorn (talk) 12:35, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Boxes or not? In this situation (I presume) there will be several quotes, say four: two from each "side". The MOS indicates that quote boxes should generally be avoided except for lengthy quotes. A quote box draws the readers' attention to the quote and gives it special prominence, which could be perceived as a way to favor one "side" over the other. A safe approach would be to keep all quotes short-ish and inline. If there is a quote that is long, and therefore must be in a box, parity requires that the other "side" also have a quote that is long-ish and in a box. That tit-for-tat formatting seems childish, I know, but it is a good compromise. Best would be to keep all quotes short and inline to avoid the box-counting. --Noleander (talk) 14:26, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I added a second quote from a Current Union player who has switched from League but Gibson Flying V kept removing it Gnevin (talk) 08:57, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am neutral on this topic. I'm not a fan and know little about the sport. Having read the discussion above, and considering the original request for help (options are no quotes, both quotes or to just have one of the quotes), I would suggest having no quotes. For me, much of this discussion has been on how to present these quotes, rather than on whether to include them in the first place. The struggle with how to handle them stems primarily from the fact that they are non-neutral, rhetorical commentary, i.e., "just one man's opinion". Keep them out of the article altogether. Coastside (talk) 21:12, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If the quotes were from random persons on the street, then of course they are not important enough for the article. But if there is a major public controversy, and if the quotes are from notable analysts, journalists, athletes, or coaches, then the encylopedia is obligated to provide that information to readers. Without the quotes, the article is not providing a full picture. I agree that quotes should probably be omitted from the lead where they would generate more heat than light; but in the article body they can and should be presented in a neutral fashion. --Noleander (talk) 21:21, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have a new suggestion on how we might compromise on this. How about including a new section on attitudes towards rugby union and rugby league? I think a survey of attitudes towards the two codes amongst fans, athletes, and sports writers would be very useful for a good understanding of the subject, and that it would also be a perfect place to put subjective opinions like Thomsen's. Think of it as a section to document the various stereotypes that have arisen around both of the sports. I note that a similar suggestion was made on the talk page, but that it wasn't pursued very far. I think this would be worth considering seriously, though, as it has the potential to resolve the deadlock here. On the talk page there was a concern that a good section title might be hard to find, and I admit that we may have to choose a fairly long title - perhaps something like "Attitudes toward the two codes". Still, even if we have to go with a long section title, I think it would be worth discussing. Do people think this would be a good idea? — Mr. Stradivarius ^{(have a chat)} 12:36, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I did float this, but looking back I don't think this is the best idea. It would be a POV nightmare, much like the "controversy" section or "pro and con list" can be in other articles. Also, most if not all, opinions on the two games can be slotted into appropriate sections, and this is generally a better way to structure articles. We could have Thomsen under history, maybe balanced by a mention of the global status of each game, and the Ashton quote under gameplay balanced with a quote from a league player who converted to union and then back again (Sailor springs to mind and I think Rogers said a few things after his switch back). Just take the parts where they say the differences and leave the "rugby league/union is much better" parts out. Ashton talks about the difference in tactics, while Rogers mentioned that he found union more complicated[20]. AIRcorn (talk) 02:45, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, interesting. So no one's willing to answer my question above then?--Gibson Flying V (talk) 16:13, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Do you mean can we all agree that these additional viewpoints' sources be held to a similar standard of neutrality and quality? The thing is that the impartiality and reliability of a source is not the only thing that determines neutrality. It is how that source is presented in the article. There is a general agreement here that in its current form the New York Times quote is not presented in a neutral way. AIRcorn (talk) 02:45, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Vassula Ryden

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Vassula Ryden (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

I am attempting to add an important piece of information regarding Vassula Ryden's dealings with the Vatican to the Vassula Ryden page. A group of editors are blocking my attempts.

Users involved

Who is involved in the dispute?

It seems clear that the users have no particular interest in Vassula, or where they have, they are very negative about her. It is unclear why they are so determined to prevent a small but important piece of information to a page about someone for whom they have no particular interest.

Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Yes.

N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=Vassula Ryden}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

Quite a lot of discussion has taken place on the talk page.

How do you think we can help?

by either persuading the other editors to stop blocking the information I believe is important, or to explain why Wikipedia can not allow its inclusion.

Sasanack (talk) 16:00, 2 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Vassula Ryden discussion

Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.

Filer has edit warred heavily on the article and has not rebutted any of protocol arguments for exclusion advanced by other editors in question.Curb Chain (talk) 21:55, 2 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - The issue seems to be that an editor wants to add the following material:

Later, from 2001 to 2004, a thorough dialogue took place between Ryden and the CDF. At the conclusion of the dialogue, a letter from Ryden was published supplying useful clarifications regarding her marital situation, as well as some difficulties which had been suggested in the earlier Notification. On 10 July 2004, Cardinal Ratzinger wrote to some Episcopal Conferences informing them of this. ^[9] The letter and its clarifications are available on the internet as well as in the published books of the True Life in God messages.

And the citation is to http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/cdfrydn3.htm. It appears that the material is relevant to the article, but the issue hinges on the source ... does it meet the WP:Reliable source requirement? The source is www.ewtn.com, which is not a rock-solid scholarly source. I would suggest that editors that want to include this material find other, additional sources that cover that letter and other related issues. The thing that is missing from the source is a discussion or analysis of the letter by a commentator or analyst. See WP:SECONDARY. If ewtn.com is the only source on that letter that can be found, that may indicate that the material is not appropriate for the article. --Noleander (talk) 06:16, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the above contains the item I am trying to insert (although I'm open to a change in wording). The reason this item is important is because in 1995 the Vatican issued a negative document about Vassula. This item is referred to in the Vassula page with EWTN being the reference. But I am being blocked from inserting information about the positive dialogue that took place a few years later, using a similar EWTN reference!.

There is no issue about the existence of the letter from Cardinal Ratzinger about the dialogue, it is available on this site but I am not allowed to reference that. Detailed and accurate information about the entire dialogue is available here but I am also not allowed to use that.

Surely it goes against all the principles of Wikipedia to prevent highly relevant information being made available for no good reason other than (apparently) it is viewed to be propaganda because someone who supports Vassula is inserting the information!--Sasanack (talk) 08:21, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The primary source and associated text is being inserted to infer that Vassula has more acceptance from the Catholic church and that the 1995 notification is possibly no longer valid, which effectively misleads. there is already a very lengthy discussion here: [21]. I also think editors who have no particular interest in Vassula, such as myself, are perfectly positioned to objectively look at the issues and do not see why that would be an issue. I also note that you have not shown here the particular text you want added and the source. Also, if the material is important then a reliable non-primary source would have highlighted it, but they haven't. I also think the reasons for not including the text have already been mentioned repeatedly on the talk page. IRWolfie- (talk) 12:32, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

IRWolfie's objection that the insertion is designed to "infer" various things, explains why he is objecting to the insertion! Of course the dialogue of 2001-2004 changes the picture of Vassula's stance with the Vatican. That is why it is important and why it is quite wrong to block it from the Wikipedia page. A later letter from Cardinal Levada indeed confirms his view that the 1995 Notification remains valid but that letter also confirms the 2001-2004 dialogue which is being blocked from the Wikipedia page. I should add that most of the discussion on the talk page has been about inserting details of the dialogue from the www.cdf-tlig.org website. Despite this being the most suitable reference, I accept that Wikipedia doesn't like that kind of site, consequently I am using, instead, the EWTN website reference that has been accepted by everyone until now as appropriate for Wikipedia. To respond to IRWolfie's other point that I have not shown here the text I want to insert, I draw his attention to Noleander's 'Comment' which includes the text which, I say again, I am ready to modify if appropriate.--Sasanack (talk) 13:36, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There is no reason why the self published opinions of a Supporter of vassula's should be reported as fact. you appear to be effectively trying to get the opinons of this supporter included indirectly. IRWolfie- (talk) 14:22, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

'Note Another SPA, Arkatakor, who was posting on the same issue has iniated an identical thread at WP:RSN. IRWolfie- (talk) 14:25, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

EWTN is not a great secondary source, but their summary of the Vatican CDF's four Ryden-related documents here fails to mention dialogue, positive or otherwise. TLIG.ORG i.e. Ryden's supporters, appear to be the only one that is advancing the idea of "positive dialogue". - LuckyLouie (talk) 14:31, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

With respect, have you actually read any of these documents? I quote from Cardinal Ratzinger's letter which is the 3rd document on your linked page: Afterwards, and at her request, a thorough dialogue followed. At the conclusion of this dialogue, a letter of Mrs. Ryden dated 4 April 2002 was subsequently published in the latest volume of "True Life in God"--Sasanack (talk) 14:51, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As I mentioned on the article Talk page, there are lots of words and phrases contained in those primary sources. Which ones should Wikipedia emphasize? Which ones should Wikipedia overlook? Depends on your point of view. Which is why Wikipedia editors don't analyze primary sources and selectively emphasize words and phrases from them. Instead, we wait for independent secondary sources to do that for us. Also, there seems to be some confusion on your part about what is a primary source vs. a secondary source. This is EWTN's own summary of the four documents, which if EWTN were reliable and independent, could be considered a secondary source. This is the text of one of the four documents that's been reproduced on EWTN's website, it's still a primary source. All this may seem like mere technicality to you, but the encyclopedia's policies, taken as a whole, are intended to prevent individual analysis and WP:UNDUE emphasis on fringe or non-notable points of view in our articles. - LuckyLouie (talk) 14:57, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Whilst you have now succesfully clarified for me the difference between a primary source and a secondary source, I am unclear whether you are saying a primary source is better than a secondary source or vice versa? It all seems a rather academic to me. Cardinal Ratzinger's letter is not very long, maybe you are ok about it being printed on the Wikipedia page and then people can interpret it whatever way they want?--Sasanack (talk) 16:10, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Re being unclear whether a primary source is better than a secondary source, I believe that WP:PRIMARY will answer all of your questions. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:22, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sasanack, I think the Roman Catholic Church's stance on Ryden section of the article needs some cleaning up, but I don't think highlighting one letter out of four would be an improvement, and indeed it would go against WP's undue emphasis guidelines. The mainstream independent sources that have mentioned Ryden's status with the church as of 2005 merely note that the Vatican has issued warnings about Ryden, they don't go into any detail or analysis such as you wish to add. - LuckyLouie (talk) 16:56, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In which case, are you agreeable to me inserting something like: "Later, from 2001 to 2004, Ryden was in dialogue with the CDF which ended with the Prefect, Cardinal Ratzinger, sending a clarification letter to some Bishop's Conferences" with the EWTN site as reference?--Sasanack (talk) 18:08, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No because that emphasizes a trivial detail that hasn't been emphasized in a secondary source. However (and other non-SPA editors would need to agree to this) I could see one possible solution might be to rewrite the article's Roman Catholic stance section to summarize EWTN's summary of those four letters (clearly attributing it to EWTN and linking to it as the cited source). That way readers clicking on the source get links to the individual letters, and WP gets a dispassionate. TLIG.ORG-spin-free overview of the RC church's correspondence. - LuckyLouie (talk) 18:14, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that's a viable option. EWTN is not a relaible source for the interpretation of Vatican documents. They lack credible expertise and do not have a sufficient reputation for fact checking. They're pretty low on the food chain as far as Catholic information sources go, and I would never use them for anything that's controversial, like this. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 18:55, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

How can you say that "a thorough dialogue" (as described by Cardinal Ratzinger) between the CDF and Vassula is a trivial detail?? Nevertheless, as a way forward, I am open to a re-writing of the Roman Catholic stance which, as it stands, is highly misleading and inadequate. However, I don't know what Arkatakor's view would be. For the sake of the dispute editors, there seems to be only 2 pro-Vassula editors able to edit the Vassula page as it is currently locked.--Sasanack (talk) 18:53, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Editors should be editing neutrally, and not pro- anything. That you consider yourself pro-Vassula in your editing and want more for "balance" by gettting more pro-vassula editors to edit is worrying and suggests a WP:BATTLEFIELD type mentality. IRWolfie- (talk) 10:28, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If it is more than a trivial detail then we would have a independent secondary source to make that connection. IRWolfie- (talk) 10:54, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Some useful comments have now been added on another noticeboard which are relevant to all this. I think it is fairly clear from the above that a group of editors are blocking a piece of factual information which upsets them and it appears that there is no easy way to stop them. As Fifelfoo says on the other noticeboard about the best source of information about the CDF/Vassula dialogue, "The treatment of Hvidt's work above, and on the article's talk page, is frankly appalling.". Yet Wikipedia seems not to have any way to counteract such behaviour by editors. Nevertheless, I will continue to try to find other WP processes to deal with this problem.--Sasanack (talk) 10:40, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You may want to declare your conflict of interest as the owner of the tlig.org website. - LuckyLouie (talk) 14:00, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have never hidden the fact that I am a supporter of Vassula and promote the messages wherever I can. I am neither the creator nor administrator of the tlig.org website although I have a responsibility for the domain name. As I have explained before, one would expect supporters of someone like Vassula to be the main contibutors to a page of information about her. It has certainly been exasperating to deal with editors, who clearly knew virtually nothing about her or her mission, deleting material in such a 'gung ho' manner. Again, I repeat that the editors who are blocking information do appear to be irreligious and this appears to be their motivation in involving themselves in the Vassula page.--Sasanack (talk) 14:49, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've opened a thread related to this at COIN. IRWolfie- (talk) 14:58, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

...At Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard#Sasanack. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:23, 5 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

COIN has closed with agreement that Sasanack does have a conflict of interest. IRWolfie- (talk) 08:59, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What a pity that the Wikipedia dispute resolution system can happily make solemn pronouncements on conflicts of interest yet cannot do anything to correct the blocking from Wikipedia of highly relevant factual information about Vassula. For the record, Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict) wrote in 2004 that, "this Congregation published a Notification in 1995 on the writings of Mrs. Vassula Ryden. Afterwards, and at her request, a thorough dialogue followed. At the conclusion of this dialogue, a letter of Mrs. Ryden dated 4 April 2002 was subsequently published in the latest volume of "True Life in God" The original letter can be viewed here and the translation on the 3rd party website (which is negative about Vassula) here. Why is Wikipedia not able to show this information? --Sasanack (talk) 20:31, 5 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Re: "Why is Wikipedia not able to show this information?". have you read WP:RS? I believe that the answer to your question is there. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:06, 5 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

EWTN is a perfectly reliable and appropriate reference source and is used on the Vassula page elsewhere. So I repeat, why is the information being blocked? Also, just in case you haven't read the words of Wikipedia's founder a month or so ago on his talk page: "I believe that the most effective change we can make to policy in this area is for WP:V to be changed to move the words further apart, so that "verifiability, and not truth" tends to go away as a mantra. It is false. It doesn't describe how we work, nor does it describe how we should work.". Sadly, we have here an excellent illustration of Wikipedia acting just in the way Mr Wales is complaining about.--Sasanack (talk) 07:54, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I, like Curb Chain, Noleander, and Guy Macon, am a regular mediator/clerk here at DRN.:

Comment re Jimbo: Though I think from your use of the word "complaining" you may know this already, but that statement by Jimbo was followed by his acknowledgement that, though that's his opinion, that the community recently considered and rejected the change to WP:V that he believes needs to be made. He wasn't happy about either the rejection or the manner in which the rejection came about, but he also made clear that he didn't want people to edit war over it based on his opinion. Also be aware that Jimbo has also said that "as a general rule, I think that almost any argument, on any topic, which has premises beginning with 'Jimbo said...' is a pretty weak argument. Surely the merits of the proposal should be primary, not what I happen to think."

It is unfortunate that Mr Wales' proposals have not been accepted. This shouldn't be a surprise because I think there are probably quite a lot of editors out there who quite enjoy deleting stuff - a bit of a power trip I think.

Comment re use elsewhere in article and blocking: I have not dissected the history of the article to see what's going on but the most likely answer to your objection that EWTN being used elsewhere in the article is very likely simply that no one has yet challenged those usages and that they, too, might very well be deleted if someone bothers to do so. We're all volunteers here and stuff gets put in all the time that violates the rules or shouldn't be here for other reasons (I'm not taking a position, by the way, on whether EWTN is or is not a reliable source; I've not looked at that question and, at this point in time, have no opinion about it, though for the nonce I do defer to the opinions of my colleagues here at DRN). Until someone both chooses and gets around to doing something about it, it sticks around. That could very well be what's happened with the other uses of EWTN in the article. About "blocking," I have not, again, seen what has happened that you are referring to as "blocking" but I suspect that your edits are merely getting reverted or objected-to. Without any intent to imply anything pro or con about the correctness or propriety of those reverts or objections, let me say that they are in no way "official," it's just those editors' opinions and, indeed, if my colleagues or I here at DRN have agreed with them then, with that same cavil, that's just our opinions, too. We decide things by consensus around here and just because one or a few editors feel one way about something, it doesn't mean that they're right. If you want to bring the attention of more editors (and, in theory, the entire community) onto a question the way to do it is through a request for comments, more about which in a moment.

There are two points to make about the EWTN references on the Vassula page. The editors who are blocking the insertion of information about the Vatican-Vassula dialogue are quite happy with the EWTN reference for the Notification information and the Levada letter, but when the reference is used for the Ratzinger document it suddenly becomes an unsuitable reference! EWTN (who are NOT Vassula friendly) correctly list four documents, yet my editor friends are blocking just the one document which refers to the dialogue. And yes, the blocking is achieved by these editors instantly reverting any insertion of the item about the dialogue, followed by accusations of warring if I revert them. With regard to the suitability of EWTN as a suitable reference, I fail to see why it is unsuitable. Noleander says the site "is not a rock-solid scholarly source". Well, probably not, but do all citations need to refer to 'rock-solid scholarly sources'? Undoubtedly the best reliable source of all the dealings of Vassula with the Vatican is the cdf-tlig.org site but this has been rejected out of hand because the owner of the site is a supporter of Vassula. But I am happy to see that editors have now come forward challenging that assumption.

Mostly-rhetorical inquiry: In light of the Vatican's subsequent statement in 2007, I'm not at all certain why this 2004 statement is worth arguing about. What do you, Sasanack, see that it adds to the article? (For reasons I'm about to explain, this is mostly a rhetorical question at this point and place in time, though you are free to answer it if you care to do so.)

It is important to recognize that the 1995 Notification and the 2007 letter are effectively warnings and are not rulings. The Vatican has no jurisdiction over Vassula who is Greek Orthodox. Also, neither document involved any dialogue with Vassula on any level. The ONLY dialogue that has taken place between Vassula and the Vatican is that which took place between 2001 and 2004 and it resulted in the positive letter from Cardinal Ratzinger which is being blocked from Wikipedia. And Cardinal Ratzinger is now the present Pope. Hiding this information from the Wikipedia page totally destroys the neutrality of the Roman Catholic stance section.

Possible ways forward: There is a mechanism here at Wikipedia for the inclusion of material which would be otherwise excluded by policy if the community believes that its inclusion is in the best interest of the encyclopedia: The IAR local exception process. The community can, by consensus, agree to ignore the rules and include the material. The best way to go about that would be to start an request for comments on the article talk page, clearly stating the desired edit, the policy-based objections which have been made to it, and the reason that you believe that its inclusion would best benefit the encyclopedia. I would strongly suggest that you very clearly and explicitly make a request that if the consensus of the community is that policy would ordinarily prevent the inclusion of your desired edits that you are requesting consensus for an IAR local exception to the rules, as otherwise you may simply get another "policy prevents it" result. A compelling answer to the inquiry I just made above will, I feel, be essential in obtaining such a consensus and it will be important to remember in constructing your request that the only proper reason for an IAR local exception is that ignoring the rules would benefit the encyclopedia in this instance more than following them. Arguments that the rules are misguided in general, or that an exception would benefit or be more fair to Ms. Ryden or her work, will probably be of no avail. Finally, an RFC can also be used to obtain the consensus of the community on whether the rules do, in fact, prevent the use of these sources, if that's all you care to do.

All the above advice is most useful and needs reflection before a decision is taken as to the next stage.

Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:04, 6 June 2012 (UTC) PS: Though my foregoing wall-o-text is already far too long, I neglected to mention that, yes, indeed, I am also the coordinator at the Mediation Cabal that closed your request for mediation there because this discussion here at DRN was not yet concluded. You are free to refile that request if you do not like the results here and choose to go that way, rather than go on to an RFC. I would note, however, that all that mediation (whether through MEDCAB or formal mediation at WP:MEDCOM) can achieve is negotiation of a settlement between the editors who are already in the dispute. If any of them are intransigent or are unwilling to engage in the mediation process, it is not likely to succeed, whereas RFC can bring new editors and new opinions into the mix. It's your choice, if you choose to do anything at all. — TM 15:29, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I just want to make a quick response, TransporterMan, to your lengthy and detailed response. You have restored my faith in Wikipedia! For the first time since editing the Vassula page someone has made a serious attempt to look at the problem and respond in a constructive way. I want to respond to everything you have said tommorrow after reflecting on all your points. But thank you very much for this response which is greatly appreciated.--Sasanack (talk) 19:46, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have now responded to your points, TransporterMan, inserting my responses in italics under each of your points. Once again, many thanks for your help. --Sasanack (talk) 14:34, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please do not intersperse your comments with those of the editor you are replying to. While this is common practice in mailing lists, where interspersal in a reply is often very good, here it breaks up the effective primary record of a discussion, making it more difficult to follow who is saying what. If it is justified, the prior section really should have a signature added to it (copy of the original), and a note that it is continued below. Instead, if you really need to respond to something point by point, you may wish to adopt the practice of quoting it, perhaps with italics to set it off. See Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines#Editing comments. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:45, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As has already been mentioned the specific material only serves to mislead. It has no particular due weight and it gives the mistaken impression that the catholic church accepts Vassula although the current prefect of the CDF has made it very clear that this is not the case. I also think pushing content for which you have a known conflict of interest can cloud your judgment. IRWolfie- (talk) 15:15, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Clearly, IRWolfie would like a new WP rule, "No insertion of any material which might be misinterpreted"--Sasanack (talk) 17:19, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Unless someone thinks that we can further profit by further discussion here, I propose to close this discussion 24 hours from now so as to move on to the next step, if any. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 18:43, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Marshall Strabala

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Marshall Strabala (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

Looking at just Marshall Strabala#Gensler

The issue or conflict is whether the job position and title of Marshall Strabala is both relevant and important during a) his hiring with Gensler and b) his position at Gensler when the Shanghai Tower was designed. I have provided reliable sources both statistics and cites which indicate that he held the position of "Director of Design" and "Design Team Lead" specifically during his employment with while he worked on the Shanghai Tower while he lived in China.

Dispute detail

For the full thread see TALK at Talk:Marshall Strabala#Late May 2012 update, below I recap the relevant points.

Firms like Gensler are normally the "architect of record" people are interested in who designed the tallest buildings or what employee provided the creative input. Examples, see Adrian Smith (architect) and Burj Khalifa - search for "Adrian Smith" and even search for "Strabala".

I think that articles on the web such as a news feed "Construction Starts on China’s Tallest Building, Designed by Houston Architect" [[22]] and also an organizational chart, made by Gensler itself "Shanghai Tower Gensler Team Organization" Appendix A of MOTION by Defendant Jay Marshall Strabala for sanctions (docket #71, Appendix A, Page 13 of docket #71) U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Illinois] PACERin Gensler v. Strabala (1:11-cv-03945) https://ecf.ilnd.uscourts.gov/ (-or- a non-citable copy of same, page 13, that I have made public here - https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B4KiE8753Bbab1lQN0dyVGhnYTQ ) are highly relevant due to the existance of a contrary opinion that is being cited.

The contrary opinion stems from the fact that Gensler sued Strabala issued soem news feeds (or a court reportign service picked up on the case). Eventually Gensler lost (note, they has just filed an appeal) as per this ruling http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/illinois/ilndce/1:2011cv03945/256636/47/0.pdf?ts=1329913307 - pagse 1-2 sets forth the facts of the case (which was dismissed in this opinion) as seen by the Judge:

Facts

From March 2006 to February 2010, Gensler employed Strabala as Design Director, i.e., an architect. (Compl. ¶ 9.) While working for Gensler, Strabala worked on and participated in the design of several buildings, including the Shanghai Tower, Hess Tower, Houston Ballet Center, Three Eldridge Place in West Houston, Texas and Tesoro Corporation’s headquarters. (Id. ¶¶ 10-14.)

Upon leaving the employ of Gensler, Strabala began doing business as an architect under the business name 2DEFINE Architecture, with offices in Chicago, Illinois, Shanghai, China and Seoul, South Korea. (Id. ¶ 15.) Strabala promotes his architecture business through a personal website, www.define-arch.com, and a Flickr website. (Id. ¶¶ 17, 20.) On the personal website, Strabala claims to have designed the Burj Khalifa in Dubai, United Arab Emirates; the Nanjing Greenland Financial Center in Nanjing, China; and the Shanghai Tower in Shanghai, China. (Id. ¶ 21.) On the Flickr website, Strabala professes to have designed architectural works such as the Houston Ballet Center for Dance, Three Eldridge Place, Hess Tower, and the headquarters of the Tesoro Corporation. (Id. ¶ 22.) Gensler has sued Strabala to prevent him from maintaining that he is the origin of design of said architectural works. (Id. ¶ 50.)

Adding Strabala's positions "Director of Design" and "Design Team Lead" which he held while at Gensler during the design of the Shanghai Tower supported via cites (especially the organization chart made by Gensler itself during Strabala's employment) provides a much more balanced article, considering that the paragraph in question contains the contrary claim via the text in the current Wikipedia Article e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Strabala#Gensler Gensler, however, claims that the tower is not Strabala's design. According to Gensler in an unsuccesful lawsuit, "Gensler, not (Strabala), is the source of the architectural and design services rendered in designing the Shanghai Tower.

The current Article reads as follows:

Gensler

After leaving SOM, Strabala joined the Houston, Texas, office of the architectural firm Gensler in 2006.[2][4] Strabala has been reported to have led the design of the 128-story Shanghai Tower while at Gensler and to have completed the "bulk of the design work".[4] Gensler, however, claims that the tower is not Strabala's design. According to Gensler in an unsuccesful lawsuit, "Gensler, not (Strabala), is the source of the architectural and design services rendered in designing the Shanghai Tower."[9]

Strabala also has been credited for leading Gensler's efforts in designing Hess Tower (Houston, 2010) and the Houston Ballet Center for Dance (2011).[10][11][12] However, Gensler has claimed that "'Gensler, not (Strabala), is the source of the architectural and design services rendered in designing Hess Tower'", and that Strabala was but "'one of many members of that Gensler team'" that designed the Houston Ballet Center for Dance.[13]

Strabala left Gensler in 2010.[4]

My proposed and reverted update ([23]) reads as follows:

Gensler

After leaving SOM, Strabala joined the Houston, Texas, office of Gensler global architectural firm as the firm's South Central Region Director of Design in 2006.[2][4] Strabala led the design of the 128-story Shanghai Tower, moved to Shanghai to focus on the project, and is reported to have completed the "bulk of the design work" as both "Director of Design" and "Design Team Lead."[4][9][10][11] Gensler, however, claims that the tower is not Strabala's design. According to Gensler in an unsuccesful lawsuit, "Gensler, not (Strabala), is the source of the architectural and design services rendered in designing the Shanghai Tower."[12]

Strabala also has been credited for leading Gensler's efforts in designing Hess Tower (Houston, 2010) and the Houston Ballet Center for Dance (2011).[13][14][15] However, Gensler has claimed that "'Gensler, not (Strabala), is the source of the architectural and design services rendered in designing Hess Tower'", and that Strabala was but "'one of many members of that Gensler team'" that designed the Houston Ballet Center for Dance.[16]

Strabala left Gensler in 2010.[4]

Oddly enough Novaseminary himself wrote the first sentence above "verbatim" back in May of 2011 he is now trying to change it in the last five days by dropping "as the firm's South Central Region Director of Design" - this I find remarkable as it is the same time I start citing his title during the design and construction of the Shanghai Tower via declarations and org charts and other web articles - with the reasoning that the 'importance of the title' is not cited.

Note, I am 108.75.223.67 or Jon Strabala - I always sign with - consider me a potential WP:COI

Users involved

Who is involved in the dispute?

108.75.223.67 (talk · contribs)
Novaseminary (talk · contribs)

Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Yes.

N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=Http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Strabala}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

We've discussed that issue in the article for about 5 days essentially my initial, revised, and latest update have all been reverted (even afer he agreed with me in one instance), yet I believe provided proper citations to make a stronger case and provide a more balance nuetral article and that I only quoted the cites themselves. The reasons for the reverts don't seem very 'clear' or 'consistent' to first two pillars of wikipedia Wikipedia:Five pillars . I have tried diligently to discuss the problems with Novaseminary's reverts to my edits via the Talk page.

There specific Talk section in update Talk:Marshall Strabala#Late May 2012 update it is quite lengthy, and I tried to provide more and more citations (and lengthy discussions) to support the proposed updates I made. At know time did I put an "opinion" or "original research" on the main article.

In my most recent edit I provided a what I considered a balanced verifiable perspective, I didn't claim he was Gensler's sole "Director of Design" and did not include any original research ( 16:36, 4 June 2012‎ ) [24] , however this was immediately reverted.

Maybe I am the one confused here, but Marshall Strabala, unlke Gensler doesn't release news feed items about law suits, the progress and/or conclusion of any lawsuit and the dismissal are enough to "speak" and provide neutral, verifiable, and reliable sources that can be cited (from the legal record either pacer or RFC express) to counter claim and internet posts at the onset of the case like Gensler, however, claims that the tower is not Strabala's design. According to Gensler in an unsuccesful lawsuit, "Gensler, not (Strabala), is the source of the architectural and design services rendered in designing the Shanghai Tower.

I agree with Nova, this isn't a marketing piece but the fact that Marshall Strabala held both positions "Director of Design" and "Design Team Lead." while he worked on the Shanghai Tower is important, newsworthy and relevant. It is even more newsworthy and relevant considering Gensler has made the claim Gensler, however, claims that the tower is not Strabala's design. According to Gensler in an unsuccesful lawsuit, "Gensler, not (Strabala), is the source of the architectural and design services rendered in designing the Shanghai Tower..

How do you think we can help?

By giving outside input on the dispute I believe it can be resolved via one or more third parties chiming in.

I am trying to avoid an edit war here which I fear might happen without third party input. I think that Novaseminary and myself are kind of far apart on things here and a tie breaker so to speak would (regardless of the outcome) would most likely be honored by both of us. Normally we (Nova and myself) can work things out and come to a concessional agreement, but reading the "tea leaves" I don't think it is possible here.

Once again note, I am 108.75.223.67 or Jon Strabala - I always sign with - consider me a potential WP:COI

108.75.223.67 (talk) 21:44, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Marshall Strabala discussion

There is a dispute, according to the sources, about who designed this important building. Neither of the two proposals presented above is ideal: one claims that MS designed it; and the other says "he is reported to have designed it". When the sources conflict, it is best for the article to plainly state the two or more viewpoints. Something like "Strabala claims that he is the primary designer of the building, but Gensler disputes this, and says that Stabala was only one member of a team. The dispute led to a lawsuit after Strabala left Gensler ... The suit was dismissed ..." Presenting both sides plainly should resolve the matter. --Noleander (talk) 22:01, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Noleander, I have no problem with "he is reported to have designed it" I fully understand your reasoning - I actually like a lot of your text (above - short simple no hype and says the basic facts - users can dig for details via cites if interested).

However my conflict question hinges more on the inclusion of the phrase as both "Director of Design" and "Design Team Lead." which were his actual titles (or job posistions) while he worked on the Shanghai Tower as per a Jan 1, 2009 Gensler org chart (part of the litigation record and accessible via Pacer and also RFC express) and other citations. I guess my point is that if pre-litigation he held those titles in a Gensler document there shouldn't be much of a dispute of this "fact" so are these titles both relevant and important to the Wiki Article (Novaseminary is saying no I am saying yes)? 108.75.223.67 (talk) 22:18, 4 June 2012 (UTC) Jon Strabala PACER USER consider me a potential WP:COI[reply]

I hear what you are saying, but the specific job titles a person has are generally too detailed to go into a WP article. The WP article should strive for a top-level, encyclopedic tone. Job titles tend to be irrelevant, and can often be misleading or ambiguous. In this particular article, the job title should be avoided because it is a piece of evidence that could be used to buttress one side of a dispute. So, I recommend omitting the job titles from the article, and instead focus on what he did. If there is a dispute (was he the only architect? the lead architect? the lead of the team? a member of a team?) describe both sides of the dispute in plain english. --Noleander (talk) 22:25, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Thor (film)

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Thor (film) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

In articles about superheroes a standard issue to address is the source of the powers of the superhero. In the case of the superhero film "Thor", there is some dispute over the origin of Thor's powers and, in general, of the nature of Thor and the other Asgardians. That is, the dispute is over whether the Asgardians are gods in that their powers are derived from magic and are supernatural, or if they are actually beings from an advanced civilization using incredibly advanced technology, who were perceived to be supernatural and then worshipped as gods by primitive humans.

The article originally simply stated that they were "gods", without further explanation. I have argued that this is incorrect, and that even if they are referenced in the article as "gods" because they were worshipped as such, additional explanation is needed because of the many references in the film and elsewhere that they are in fact actually advanced beings. My edits were reverted by two editors who apparently have been involved in this article since it was created, and who have strong feelings on the matter. They have not made any offers of compromise.

My sources include the following:

a blog post for Discover Magazine, by Sean Carroll, science advisor for the film. He states "the Asgardians from Thor are really technologically-advanced aliens that seemed godlike to our ancestors."

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/05/04/avengers-assemble/

a prior blog post for Discover Magazine by Sean Carroll, where he describes the film's producer Kevin Feige's view of the technological basis for the film: 'Kevin Feige, president of production at Marvel Studios, is a huge proponent of having the world of these films ultimately “make sense.” ...The thinking here is very much based on Arthur C. Clarke’s “any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” '

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2011/05/04/the-mighty-thor/

in the film, there is a lengthy exchange in which one character, Dr. Selvig, challenges that Thor's claims could be possible, to which another character retorts "Well magic’s just science that we don’t understand yet --Arthur C. Clarke." and "Well if there is an Einstein-Rosen bridge then there is something on the other side, and advanced beings could have crossed it." The point being that the filmakers would not have bothered including this exchange unless they were communicating to the audience that the fantastic things happening do have a technological basis, which is clearly the case.

there is also Thor's quote from the film and trailer: "Your Ancestors called it magic, but you call it science. I come from a land where they are one and the same." There really is no alternative explanation to this quote except that what the humans are perceiving as magic, is in fact just advanced technology. Again, if Thor's powers were based on magic, the filmakers would have had no reason to include this line.

The editors who are preventing edits to the article claim that the Asgardians are "clearly" using magic, and (I'm paraphrasing here) that even if they were, because they are seen and worshipped as gods by some humans, they can be referred to as gods in the article without further explanation.

Unfortunately, despite my best attempts at discussion, these have not addressed many of the points I raise above, and have not countered with other sources. Yet they insist that no changes to the article can be made. Frustratingly, they have claimed that it is up to me to come up with even more sources to prove my points, despite not having citing any counter-sources themselves.

I'd also like to add that, as someone who is new to wikipedia, this has not been a pleasant experience. After making good faith attempts to correct an inaccuracy and cite a credible, verifiable source, my edits were reverted with a flippant comment by an editor who admitted he had not even bothered to read my source. This editor, DarkwarriorBlake, also continued to revert edits while ignoring the talk page for the article, refusing to enter into a discussion on the matter until I engaged him several times. Then despite my good faith effort to engage in a lengthy discussion with DarkwarriorBlake and TriiipleThreat (the creator of the article), they have not been open to any compromise whatsoever. It has been incredibly frustrating.

Users involved

Who is involved in the dispute?

Cardonculous
Darkwarriorblake
TriiipleThreat

Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Yes.

Resolving the dispute

Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

I initiated a discussion on a talk page, and it was discussed at length. No compromise was offered by the two editors who are preventing edits to the article.

How do you think we can help?

I am new to wikipedia, so this isn't clear. But hopefully someone who has not been involved in the article previously could facilitate a compromise.

It would be nice to also have some confirmation that if I make an edit to an article that is backed up by a verifiable source, then that edit should stand unless someone can provide a counter-source. For editors who seem to have some attachment to the way an article is written to flippantly dismiss my edits, without any sources of their own, is very frustrating. Why would I bother editing other articles in the future if this practice is accepted?

Cardonculous (talk) 23:18, 4 June 2012 (UTC)Cardonculous 67.188.3.9 (talk) 23:05, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thor discussion

IP: The sources you list above are not very strong. They are two blogs, and some quotes from the movie/trailer itself. Generally, the WP:Reliable sources policy requires more concrete sources: mainstream magazines, reviews in newspapers, books, etc. Blogs are rarely used for WP articles, and only if the author is a very notable journalist or figure. Unless you can come up with some more solid sources, the additional details about the source of their powers may have to be omitted from the article. --Noleander (talk) 23:15, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This doesn't make sense to me. My sources may not be very strong (although I don't know how the movie itself isn't a good source for its own article), but they have no sources at all to back up their text in the article simply stating Thor is a god. There is no citation. They just happened to write it that way when the article was first created, which was before the movie came out, and since no one has questioned it it has stood ever since, despite having no source. Sorry, but my not-very-strong sources should trump their no-sources-at-all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cardonculous (talk • contribs) 23:40, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I was not aware that the "god" material was entirely unsourced. WP:BURDEN says that the editors that want to include the statement that "Thor is a god" are responsible for providing sources; otherwise the material can be removed (after a reasonable warning period). As far as your sources: it is generally a bad idea to use the movie itself as a source for anything other than the plot synopsis. So, within the plot section, it is okay, but outside that, I would look for stronger sources. --Noleander (talk) 00:34, 5 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, one compromise solution is to change the article to say something like: "The character of Thor and the other residents of [that place] are based on gods from nordic mythology. However, it has been suggested that the creators of the movie considered the characters to be extraterrestrial aliens." Or something like that: that way the canonical view (gods) is presented, along with the alternative viewpoint. --Noleander (talk) 00:43, 5 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Someone has proposed a compromise edit that side-steps the issue, so there at least is forward progress towards reaching a resolution. Let's say for a second the filmakers were intentionally ambiguous on this point, to allow for different interpretations (and in this case, to avoid angering die-hard comic book fans). I'd be interested to know how those different viewpoints would be included in an article. Afterall, differing interpretations should be a fairly standard thing when it comes to works of art. Cardonculous (talk) 01:01, 5 June 2012 (UTC)Cardonculous[reply]

Yes, it is a common situation in WP. The Wikipedia:Neutral point of view policy has some guidance on that: "Wikipedia aims to describe disputes, but not engage in them. Editors, while naturally having their own points of view, should strive in good faith to provide complete information, and not to promote one particular point of view over another. As such, the neutral point of view does not mean exclusion of certain points of view, but including all notable and verifiable points of view.… Indicate the relative prominence of opposing views. Ensure that the reporting of different views on a subject adequately reflects the relative levels of support for those views, and that it does not give a false impression of parity, or give undue weight to a particular view." That policy page has other detail that may be useful for this situation. --Noleander (talk) 01:05, 5 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

IP: Also, you write "I'd also like to add that, as someone who is new to wikipedia, this has not been a pleasant experience." I'm sorry to hear that. I think many of us have had encounters that seem unpleasant, and that problem has plagued WP for a long time. It is a known issue, and many brainstorming efforts are underway to figure out how to improve the situation. Sometimes it is not that they other editor is a jerk, but merely that they are brusque, or impatient. My advice is to hang in there: things get better the more you edit. Maybe try editing some other articles that are less contentious for awhile. WP needs editors. --Noleander (talk) 23:18, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. While as I said I'm quite new here, just based on my own experience I'd humbly like to add the following ideas to the brainstorm:

If new text has been added to an article with a new citation, then anyone clicking "undo" or replacing that text with other text that has no citation could receive a warning notice. The notice could provide them a link to the cited source that they are about to delete, so they will at a minimum feel obligated to actually read the source before undoing someone else's hard work.

Editors could have the ability to apply a tag that relates a section on the talk page to new text they are adding on that subject. Then, if a different editor deletes that text or reverts edits that have been so tagged, they receive a notice that they should first check (or even respond to) the discussion on the talk page before they are allowed to delete the new text.

I can't emphasize enough how demoralizing it is to put in the hard work to both a) find and cite sources and b) also create a section on the talk page where I explain my edits, only to have some editor undo all of my hard work with a single click. Especially if that editor offers no explanation or comments to the talk page, and/or reveals he didn't even bother to read the source. I think the two ideas above could reduce the occurrences of that happening. Cardonculous (talk) 06:33, 5 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Good Olfactory, User:Alan Liefting

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Dispute overview

Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

User:Good Olfactory and I disagree ion the implementation of guidelines for categorisation of images. I want a third part to determine who is "right" or "wrong". There are huge numbers of images in question and a lot of time is being wasted in restore/revert edits. There is a relevant thread on my talk page at User_talk:Alan_Liefting#Removing_images_from_categories.

Users involved

Who is involved in the dispute?

Good Olfactory (talk · contribs)
Alan Liefting (talk · contribs)

Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Yes.

N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=User:Good Olfactory, User:Alan Liefting}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

User talk page discussions.

How do you think we can help?

Need to clarify file categorisation guideline implementation

-- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 23:22, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

User:Good Olfactory, User:Alan Liefting discussion

Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.

Comment. In the discussion, four other editors have already commented on the issue. I'm all for resolving disputes, but this begins to look like someone searching for the answer he wants to hear when he doesn't get it the first, second, third, fourth, or fifth times ... Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 23:44, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - After reading the Talk page discussion, I think that images/files in WP categories should be left in the "old" categories until the appropriate long-term solution (e.g. either moving the image/file to Commons, or creating new "Image of ...." categories) is implemented. Recommend that Liefting drop this DNR and continue to work it out in the existing Talk page discussion. --Noleander (talk) 00:29, 5 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This isn't the first time Liefting has inappropriately removed articles from categories, he did the same thing here, fighting it here and leaving an unacted upon cleanup tag here. Yeah, I reacted badly and deflected the entire issue from Liefing's inappropriate removals and the ANI focused upon me instead of this issue, but you can see - his inappropriate removals are ongoing. Dreadstar ☥ 18:38, 5 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
And yet another category dispute with Liefting, this editor needs to be banned from removing articles from categories. I'm sure there are more inappropriate actions by this editor, including crap like this. Dreadstar ☥ 19:13, 5 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Liefting tends to find something that he feels is some kind of endemic issue with Wikipedia, and rapidly increases his edit count by making hundreds of edits in a few days, despite being asked to desist by multiple editors on multiple occasions, and without making any attempt to discuss it first. The claim he attempts to resolve disputes on talk pages is dubious. He objects and ignores others' objections. His propensity to link to highly general guidelines as a solution to a very specific problem (in his perception) is entirely unhelpful, particularly to new users. If I had a pound for every time, when questioned about his actions, he simply stated "See WP:CAT." I'd be at least two or three hundred pounds richer. I also note that recent disruption by him has led to a 31-hour block. It appears to be the petulant actions of someone who doesn't immediately get his own way. If he would act more collaboratively, listen to the community when they talk to him en masse and act accordingly, and stop over-reacting with ridiculous diatribe then I'd be happy to give him more opportunity to continue, but right now there needs to be some serious cooling off and a stop must be made to these horrendous mass-edit sprees Liefting is inclined towards. The Rambling Man (talk)
I am unfortunately forced to endorse much of what has been said above. To be generous, Alan appears to feel that his interpretation of policy is the "right" one and everyone else is "wrong". (To be less generous, one might argue that Alan is merely vaguely waving towards policy to support his unilateral actions, but I'm not quite to the point of believing that as yet.) He has a seeming confusion/convolution of WP:CON and WP:BOLD (For example, it seems to me that he feels that: "If I self-assert something is "true", then it must be so, regardless of previous common practice or any contradictory policy/guidelines".) Beyond that, what concerns me is that he's started stating (pushing) these interpretations (POV) to others who may be newer or less informed about common practice on Wikipedia. Besides all this, in general, Alan has been in the past, a seemingly helpful and decent editor. I just find it a shame that he's not understanding the concerns others are trying to convey to him. - jc37 12:05, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is looking less and less like a article content issue and more and more like a user conduct issue. I am inclined to suggest that the discussion be moved to WP:WQA, and if that does not resolve the problem, to WP:RFCU. --Guy Macon (talk) 03:21, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nah, Liefting instigated this himself and wants a resolution to his own dispute. You can't just toss it over the fence to WQA because several folks have differing opinions to him. You should be contacting him to continue this discussion to its conclusion, i.e. to attempt "to clarify file categorisation guideline implementation". Let's do that. But the first step in that process would naturally be to ask all involved to arrest their edit warring over file categorisation. I'm beginning to wonder if this noticeboard is entirely pointless. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:27, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The issues are behavioural, not content-based, so unfortunately this board really isn't going to solve the problem. The question asked is already answered, but I'll offer this précis if it might help: Any edit which takes a previously categorised page and leaves it lacking any category is making the encyclopedia worse, not better. --RexxS (talk) 21:19, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is never a good sign when title has names of editors instead of a description of a dispute, and the filer could not think of a specific page to list. --Guy Macon (talk) 01:29, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

List of tallest buildings in Australia

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

List of tallest buildings in Australia (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

There has been as dispute coming down to what is defined as a bulding. However I have found based upon this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Building that the definition of a building is: Any human-made structure used or intended for supporting or sheltering any use or continuous occupancy, or an act of construction (i. e. the activity of building, see also builder). However this user (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:MelbourneStar) (Melbourne Star), seems to be under the impression that certain "Towers" are in-fact, not a building. An outside neutral opinion in this issue would be much appreciated.

Users involved

Who is involved in the dispute?

CharlieTN (talk · contribs)
MelbourneStar (talk · contribs)

The users comments towards myself seem to be quite bias.

Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Not yet.

N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=List of tallest buildings in Australia}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

I have informed the user on numerous occasions that I believe his information to be inaccurate but they do not seem to want to negotiate ad just revert the page without consulting myself about the issue.

How do you think we can help?

If a number of users could come to a decision on what should or should not be included as a "building". It would be most appreciated.

CharlieTN (talk) 08:29, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

List of tallest buildings in Australia discussion

Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.

What's wrong with using the criteria the Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat uses? --Guy Macon (talk) 08:54, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: This is the first I have ever crossed paths with User:CharlieTN - unless s/he goes by IP:121.216.86.150 - whom I simply have reverted and explained that the Sydney Tower is an observation tower/structure - not a habitable building, which according to the article Building, needs to be habitable - to be considered one. As well as pointing out on the IPs talk page, that freestanding structures have their own article (Sydney Tower included) - I also provided them previous discussion regarding the tower and this article. -- MST☆R ^{(Chat Me!)} 09:02, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment:I believe you will indeed find that Sydney Tower is inhabitable. Unless you are that ignorant you have not studied the building you are speaking of. - CharlieTN — Preceding unsigned comment added by CharlieTN (talk • contribs) 09:13, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Reply: How many floors of this tower, have people living in it - actually, does this tower even have floors? and labelling a good-faith edit as vandalism is against policy, please don't do it again. -- MST☆R ^{(Chat Me!)} 09:19, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment:The tower has a total of 19 floors that are habitable. Whilst none of the floors are used for residential or office space, the building contains a number of facilities including a shopping centre, observation platform, restaurant and communications centre. I believe by "needs to be habitable" you are referring to the building exclusively as a radio mast? Quite the contrary it far from that. - CharlieTN — Preceding unsigned comment added by CharlieTN (talk • contribs) 09:26, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Futhermore - The Sydney Tower is not being cherry-picked out of the article. That's the same case with the CN Tower (List of tallest buildings in Canada); The Eifel Tower (List of tallest buildings in France); The Sky Tower (List of tallest buildings in Auckland); and who can forget the world's tallest tower, Canton Tower (List of tallest buildings in the People's Republic of China) -- all of which, are tower's (free-standing structures - not buildings). They are all located in article's that list tall Structures. -- MST☆R ^{(Chat Me!)} 09:30, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I completely understand where you are coming from. I understand the building is not being cherry-picked. However I do find that these free-standing structures still fit the definition of a building. I think if you where to consult the NSW department of planning they would assure anyone that it is a building. There obviously needs to be a complete universal set of guidelines covering all aspects of structures to determine exactly what is and isn't a building. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CharlieTN (talk • contribs) 09:37, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Reply - I agree that there should be, inconveniently, there is not. I found this on the Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat website - they rank the Sydney Tower - as a "free standing structure" - not a "building". -- MST☆R ^{(Chat Me!)} 09:44, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You both ignored my question. If it is your intent to simply shout at each other and ignore the input of DRN volunteer mediators, I will be happy to close this discussion and send you back to the article talk page to yell at each other.

So again I ask, what's wrong with using the criteria the Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat uses? if you look here you will see a section labeled "What is the difference between a tall building and a telecommunications /observation tower?" which should settle this dispute. --Guy Macon (talk) 09:49, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And if you look at my above comment, you will notice that I have already pointed out the Sydney Tower - is a free standing structure, per CTBUH. Sorry if I sound a little sharp, but some people do not appreciate being dragged into a "dispute" (not really one) when they have enough on their plate as it is. Although the other user was bordering AGF, the both of us were definately not shouting each other. Apologies if you got that impression. -- MST☆R ^{(Chat Me!)} 09:55, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What I am getting at is the difference between "The CTBUH says it is an observation tower" and "these are the criteria the CTBUH uses." Does anyone here disagree with those criteria? If so, why? --Guy Macon (talk) 10:58, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If I have used CTBUH to back my statements above, I do not disagree with it. If Charlie does disagree, I'll be more than happy to continue discussion. -- MST☆R ^{(Chat Me!)} 11:04, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

From the CTBUH (Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat) Criteria for Defining and Measuring Tall Buildings:

"What is the difference between a tall building and a telecommunications /observation tower?"

"A tall “building” can be classed as such (as opposed to a telecommunications/observation tower) and is eligible for the "Tallest" lists if at least 50% of its height is occupied by usable floor area."

This appears to be the definition that consensus has agreed on for multiple "tallest building" pages on Wikipedia. I believe that it should be for this article as well. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:56, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Are we agreed that this is the criteria for inclusion we should follow? --Guy Macon (talk) 09:04, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Granai airstrike

Granai airstrike (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

Two editors disagree about whether the article should be placed in the category "massacres in Afghanistan." Others have been involved in this dispute previously.

Users involved

Who is involved in the dispute?

Only Randy2063 and I are currently discussing this; others have in the past.

Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Yes (except Iqinn, who was apparently banned).

N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=Granai airstrike}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

We have tried to discuss why we believe this event was or was not a massacre. Randy2063 has stated the event was not a massacre because it was an accident (intent is required). I have not commented on the intent of the military forces, but have stated that some Asian news sources have described it as a massacre. We have tried to discuss the definition of "massacre" and have reached an impasse.

How do you think we can help?

Perhaps you could help us develop clear criteria for accepting a definition of the word massacre. A mediator would also be helpful to keep the discussion on track, and help with communication problems between us both.

Darouet (talk) 23:51, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Granai airstrike discussion

Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.

I am a clerk/mediator here at the Wikipedia dispute resolution noticeboard. As a starting point, could I get all parties to read Talk:List of events named massacres (Section: Criteria for including events in this list)? Thanks! --Guy Macon (talk) 00:13, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is a silly dispute. The article presents the facts: the United States killed approximately 86 to 145 Afghan civilians, mostly women and children. I don't think many readers will have trouble figuring out whether a 'massacre' took place. Whether or not the article is placed in the category "massacres in Afghanistan" ... who cares? It won't change the facts, nor the conclusion people draw from those facts. Dlabtot (talk) 01:16, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing in wikipedia should be able to change the facts, but if Randy2063 would like to remove the article from the category, I'd like him to discuss it with third parties. -Darouet (talk) 03:09, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

By the way Guy Macon, thanks for providing the criteria for listing events as massacres. For my part I find them reasonable. -Darouet (talk) 03:12, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it's a silly dispute. Real "massacres" are supposed to be deliberate. We already have a category called "Civilian casualties in the War in Afghanistan (2001–present)" for incidents like this one. But some people love the emotional power they think they get from the word "massacre".

If there wasn't any emotional power, everyone would be happy with the other category. But the word "massacre" says a lot more. It clearly implies that the pilot wanted to kill civilians. Darouet (who initiated this dispute resolution) even said that he believes it was deliberate, although there's nothing to suggest such a thing.

As we all should know, this simply isn't true. We have an article falsely claiming that a living person (albeit unknown at the present time) had committed a war crime.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 04:14, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have any arguments that might convince us to adopt your "deliberate" criteria rather than the criteria listed on Talk:List of events named massacres#Criteria for including events in this list? --Guy Macon (talk) 05:09, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Deliberate intent is a requirement in common English usage. We don't call the Titanic's sinking a massacre. We don't even use the word for the more obvious cases of negligence.

As for the criteria listed in that talk page, this event fails those tests. That page even includes it in WikiProject Crime. This hasn't been ruled to be a crime.

My reasoning is the same as that of the press. The mainstream press usually puts "massacre" in quotes on the occasions that they used it for this event.

It is generally called a "massacre" by people who support the other side of the war, but they're not reliable sources.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 13:10, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Are you saying, Randy, that you accept the criteria found by Guy Macon, with the stipulation that we also prove that the pilots or other military personnel intended to kill the women and children they killed?

If you want to argue outside those criteria and include definitions as well, how will you convince me or others that "deliberate intent is a requirement in common English usage?" From my reading of the definition of massacre, indiscriminate killing is what is required. It is clear that the pilots intended to kill somebody, and the military has stated that they accidentally killed the wrong people. One major difference between the sinking of the Titanic and the airstrike at Granai is that the captain of the Titanic didn't aim at the iceberg with the intention of fighting an insurgency, and in the process accidentally wipe out a village (he never had intent to kill anyone). The U.S. military did intend to kill people, but as they state themselves that they failed to discriminate between civilians and combatants.

Ultimately a clear set of criteria independent of our own personal definitions will be more helpful in resolving this. -Darouet (talk) 14:08, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Template:CueI'm also a clerk/mediator here on DRN, and I'd like to suggest something here: it seems to me that we're talking about proving this pilot's intent (or premeditation). At Wikipedia, that is not what we do. I realize this is a categorization dispute, but it seems to me that this would be the time to turn to outside sources. Sleddog116 (talk) 14:19, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm saying that I've looked at the examples and dispute that any of them apply here.

The crew of that aircraft didn't aim at women and children. Just as the captain of the Titanic didn't intend to sink his ship, the pilots didn't intend to kill children.

Before it can become a matter of proving they wanted to kill innocents, we have to see if anyone seriously believes they wanted to kill innocents. We have no RS that say it happened that way. Reporters use "massacre" in quotes because they can't say it themselves.

We should go by proper journalistic standards. I know that's tough to do in this environment but Wikipedia likes to bill itself as striving for these standards.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 15:50, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In Anglo-American law, I believe, one who intends an act is presumed to intend the likely results of that act. I'm just sayin'. —Tamfang (talk) 17:36, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Two cents from Greg

I haven't been involved in this debate and haven't read all of the above but I'll give my two cent for anyone interested. The pragmatic side is that anyone interested in researching "massacres in Afghanistan" might be interested in this so it could be useful to them to include this in that category (I'm assuming that's what categories are useful for? I've never used them much myself). But other items in that category should be checked to see what the rule has been so far for inclusion to be consistent. I'm not sure what level of intent is required for a "massacre" and whether that level of intent was met in this incident, not could the reliable sources even be sure of that one. Policy is probably fairly clear that it needs to be described as a massacre by at least one reliable sources. The Times is cited in the article but there is a paywall so I can't verify. If it does describe the event as a "massacre" then that should make the decision easy. If we need to go to your "Asian" sources, then you can check those sources at the reliable sources noticeboard for the description of "massacre". Gregcaletta (talk) 16:21, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The Times story ("Whistleblowers on US ‘massacre’ fear CIA stalkers") uses the word "massacre" in two places. One is in their story title, which I've always been wary of because titles are often not written by the reporter. Regardless, as you can see here, the title puts the word in quotes, which means the newspaper isn't calling it an actual massacre.

The other place they use the word is in this sentence: "It is said to concern the so-called “Granai massacre”, when American aircraft dropped 500lb and 1,000lb bombs on a suspected militant compound in Farah province on May 4 last year." Note, again, that they put the word in quotes.

It is called a "massacre" by people who support the enemy (yes, Assange admits that he does). If Wikipedia wants to support that standard, it should say so.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 16:52, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm glad that we're consulting the sources rather than debating intent, and I think we have a consensus to do that.

From the Asian Tribune, "In Afghanistan, meanwhile, U.S. soldiers and unpiloted drones have killed thousands of civilians over the last few years, including nearly a hundred people at Granai alone and another forty seven civilians at a wedding party in Deh Bala. As of yet, no one has been punished for any of these massacres."[25]

From CBS News: "Manning also found a video and an official report on American air strikes on the village of Granai in Afghanistan's Farah Province (also known as "the Granai massacre"). According to the Afghan government, 140 civilians, including women and a large number of children, died in those strikes."[26]

From the Hindustan Times: "Meanwhile, the whistleblower magnet WikiLeaks.org is releasing its second blockbuster video (NYSE:BBI) of the season - footage of the May 4, 2009, massacre in the Afghan village of Granai, where heavy bombing killed at least 100 civilians, most of them children." [27]

From the Washington Times: "On May 4, American bombers killed as many as 147 Afghan civilians, 93 of them children, in an air strike in western Afghanistan that locals call the Farah Massacre."[28]

Reprint by the BBC Monitoring Europe: " 'Parliament should meet as soon as possible on the Afghanistan issue, because an exit strategy is necessary for the withdrawal of Italy's troops from a conflict which leaves no glimpse of an end.' In the view of Claudio Fava, the coordinator of the national secretariat of Left, Ecology, Freedom (Italian: Sinistra Ecologia Liberta), 'the Farah massacre is a massacre foretold.' " (Sorry, I don't have a weblink. "Text of report by Italian leading privately-owned centre-right daily Corriere della Sera website, on 9 October")

Reprint by The Australian: "Mr Assange claims surveillance has intensified as he and his colleagues prepare to put out their Afghan film. It is said to concern the so-called Granai massacre, when US aircraft dropped bombs on a suspected militant compound in Farah province on May 4 last year. Several children were among the dead." [29] (Originally from the Times)

I think these reliable sources clearly demonstrate that many people, including but not always the writers for these papers themselves, call the event a massacre. And I strongly object to the idea that anyone who calls this a massacre "supports the enemy," whatever that means, exactly. -Darouet (talk) 17:29, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

May I suggest deferring the question of proving they wanted to kill innocents until someone provides a logical argument for using intent as a criteria instead of the Criteria Wikipedia uses now? --Guy Macon (talk) 17:39, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Darouet: All of those are either opinion pieces (including from extremists) or they're quoting an extremist.

Guy: What's Wikipedia using now other than RS? Right now, it appears that your only rule is that some RS is quoting someone (even a propagandist), and then that's enough.

How far does that rule go? If someone who supports the Taliban calls President Obama a murderer, does that mean we can put him in a category for murderers? I don't see how. Or do your standards only slip if the military is being libeled?

Perhaps you should change the name of the category to "Things that anyone calls a massacre." You can't even call this one an alleged massacre.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 18:16, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Randy, the criteria upon which we agreed state that inclusion "is based solely on evidence in multiple reliable sources that a name including the word 'massacre' is one of the accepted names for that event." As examples, the criteria use these:

"The killing of the students was described by local media as the 'High School massacre.'"
"When the army's operation was debated in the National Assembly, the Prime Minister angrily attacked the widespread anti-government protests for calling Operation Clearout 'the Newtown massacre.'"

As you can see from the second example, the Prime Minister does not believe the event is a massacre, but it is called so by "widespread anti-government protests" and reported by a reliable source. Clearly, the term extremist is a relative one (though I would never be so presumptuous, I could imagine that some might even mistakenly think you were an "extremist"), and isn't a fair way of evaluating sources. All of the sources above are established, even venerable ones, and in only one case are they even quoting somebody. In that case, the BBC (or Corriere della Sera) is quoting someone from the "Left, Ecology, Freedom" party. They're on the left; they're not "extremists." -Darouet (talk) 19:00, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - The criteria for categorization is simply whether WP:Reliable sources describe the airstrike as a massacre. We do not look at intent. When the sources are mixed (some call it a massacre, many do not) we have to use some judgement. Categories have a stronger requirement for sourcing than lists or than text within an article. The reason categories have strong requirements is because there is no way for an entry in a category to be accompanied by an explanation or footnote to give the reader context or nuance. Contrast with Lists, where an entry in a List can be accompanied by supplemental information to give context and nuance. Since only a few sources describe Granai as a masscre, and many do not describe it as a massacre, it probably should not be in the Category. However, there is a compromise solution: include the Granai airstrike article in the List of massacres in Afghanistan and include the list in Category:Massacres in Afghanistan. That way, readers browsing the categories will see the List article, and see Granai within that List. Indeed, this compromise is already in place: Granai is in the List, and the List is in the Category. So, the only action that should be taken now is to remove Granai airstrike from the Cateogry. --Noleander (talk) 19:05, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, some Google stats on how commonly the airstrike is called a massacre: "granai airstrike -massacre" is 43K ghits; "granai massacre" is 77K ghits. That means 43/77 or over half of all references in Google do not include the word massacre. --Noleander (talk) 19:12, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And, just to clarify: I agree 100% that the "massacre" sources & material should be included in the article itself. My comments above are limited to the issue of whether it belongs in the Category, where no context or nuance can be provided to the reader. --Noleander (talk) 19:14, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure if using different criteria than those discussed above is better (it may well be appropriate). I think it is clear that the descriptions by sources listed above meet the criteria for inclusion into a list for massacres (actually those criteria are not especially stringent). The criteria proposed by Noleander are also those used for naming articles, and are perhaps too stringent as criteria for inclusion in categories (though I'm willing to admit I might be wrong, as I actually don't know). For instance, placing an article like the Granai Airstrike in a massacre category is not equivalent to placing it in a war crimes categories, which strongly implies that the perpetrators were war criminals (and that is a major BLP problem).

From the perspective of news sources, a search using the news database "LexisNexis" for "Granai massacre" yields 6 non-duplicate articles (The Australian, The Sunday Times London, CBS News, Antiwar.com, 2 from Pacific Free Press),
Whereas "Granai airstrike" yields 5 (Tulsa World, Hindustan Times, Weekend Australian, New York Times, and International Herald Tribune); none of those include the term massacre.
A similar search for "Farah massacre" yields two articles (BBC Monitoring Europe and Washington Times),
Whereas "Farah airstrike" yields 6 (Sunday Times, Pajhwok Afghan News, New York Times, the Frontrunner, Washington Post, International Herald Tribune); none of those include the term massacre.

For any horrific event (we all can agree this was one), there will be plenty of news sources describing it. In this case all would be obliged to write about the airstrike. But even if many came to consider the event a massacre (and many do in this case), not all sources, in describing the event, would also call the event a massacre. That 34/77k google hits do describe the airstrike as a massacre might or might not qualify it to be the title of the page on Wikipedia (that was discussed on the talk pages). However I would think that it especially would qualify it to belong in the massacre category. -Darouet (talk) 21:01, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, those are some good points. This Categorization is not a black & white issue: it is a borderline case. I posted a query on the WP:Categorization talk page, asking for others to provide more input. This reminds me of a situation I saw a couple of years ago, where the consensus was to remove (!) several notable persons from List of atheists when the persons said "I don't believe in God"; because the requirement for those lists is that the person must say "I am an atheist". And those were Lists, where a footnote explaining context/nuance was available. --Noleander (talk) 22:21, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You can call me an extremist all day. ("Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.") I might even say that half the Guantanamo lawyers support war crimes, but I don't go around tagging their articles with the war criminal category. (That was an exaggeration; it's probably only about one out of ten.) Perhaps real massacres aren't taken as seriously as they should be.

I see what you're thinking about massacre and war crime being different, but I think they're too close. You must have some of the same feelings or you would have been satisfied with the "civilian casualties" category.

That may be the main problem. Maybe you think this is some kind of a moral stamp of disapproval that doesn't require legal review. But I think it requires something more. The press must think the same thing when they use quotes around the word.

I'll see what Guy says about whether it would be appropriate to call President Obama a murderer based solely on what an enemy of the U.S. says.

I don't think counting google hits works that way. The way Google works, not every hit is going to actually use the word. See Google bomb.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 22:22, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrary section break

You want to know what Guy says? Guy says that Wikipedia's criteria for whether to call Granai a massacre is at Talk:List of events named massacres#Criteria for including events in this list. Each of you has three choices. You can attempt to get Wikipedia's criteria changed (Go to Talk:List of events named massacres if you wish to try) You can accept Wikipedia's criteria and edit the page accordingly, or you can refuse to accept Wikipedia's criteria and end up warned and, if you persist, blocked. This issue is settled. --Guy Macon (talk) 09:40, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I'm sorry if I hit some kind of a sore spot.

I'll keep what you said in mind for whenever I return to more frequent editing.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 12:45, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I think for my part that I'll edit the page according to those criteria. Thanks for helping us locate them and for your patience with us. -Darouet (talk) 15:06, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The statement "I'll see what Guy says about whether it would be appropriate to call President Obama a murderer based solely on what an enemy of the U.S. says." did annoy me, and I apologize if I reacted too strongly. I think it does bring up an important issue though. When that was written, nobody expected anyone to pop up and say that it was an accurate paraphrase of their position. I know the feeling well - sometimes I think that if I write a really clever zinger like that everyone will see it and immediately see that I am right on the issue. In reality, it causes the opposition to dig in their heels and impedes any attempt to come to an agreement.

One thing that may help is for all parties to agree to go through a process where each of you states a paraphrase / depiction of each others position and then discuss and rewrite until both sides agree that the other side has accurately portrayed their position. To do this, you need to decide to not play any games like telling them that they must believe X because they believe Y or in any other way refusing to accept what they say about their own position. This process takes an annoyingly long time, but how can you ever reach agreement if you are fighting a strawman?

Having said that, I am inclined to close this as being resolved. Does anyone disagree, and if so, what can DRN do to help resolve the remaining issues? --Guy Macon (talk) 18:00, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think there are two big differences between including a massacre in the List of events named massacres and including in a category such as Category:Massacres in Afghanistan. First, the list is restricted to events that have "massacre" in the name (vs simply are massacres); and second, Lists always can be more liberal about what they include, because they can contain footnotes etc. So the criteria for List of events named massacres may provide some good guidance, but they do not precisely apply to a categorization issue. For instance, an event may be considered a massacre by all sources; yet still not belong in the List of events named massacres because its common name does not include that word. Conversely, an event may be in a List of massacres because it is borderline/marginal (according to the sources) massacre, yet it may be omitted from the corresponding category because that borderline information cannot be expressed in a Category (but can be in a list). But, if the parties are willing to accept the more restrictive (avoiding the categorization) for this particular dispute, that is fine with me. --Noleander (talk) 18:14, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For example, a few events that are in a massacre category, but would not belong in that List are: Cananea strike, Yekatit 12, and Negro Rebellion. --Noleander (talk) 18:18, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Many of the items in the massacre category suffer from the same problem.

I have gripes but I didn't want to stick around this long.

The main sticking point for me is that this is a significantly lower standard than that used by the Times in the reference. They only put the word "massacre" in quotes. I don't think the BBC or the NYT used the word at all.

BTW, Guy: That wasn't simply a stinger. I really wanted an answer to that question. But in retrospect, I suppose the standard of "murderer" was set by a different group of editors.

This will be a much bigger problem if the pilots' names are ever leaked, and it becomes a definite BLP issue.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 19:07, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I find Noleander's argument to be compelling, and I retract my formerly stated opinion; I am now convinced that we cannot blindly apply the criteria from a list to a category. So, where can we find an objective set of criteria for inclusion/exclusion in the category? --Guy Macon (talk) 19:23, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not aware of any specific WP policy on massacre categories. The generic guidance from WP:Categorization says "Categorization must also maintain a neutral point of view. Categorizations appear on article pages without annotations or referencing to justify or explain their addition; editors should be conscious of the need to maintain a neutral point of view when creating categories or adding them to articles. Categorizations should generally be uncontroversial; if the category's topic is likely to spark controversy, then a list article (which can be annotated and referenced) is probably more appropriate." I think for this particular dispute, that generic guidance suggests that the category should be avoided. --Noleander (talk) 19:37, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Technically, both the Cananea strike and the Yekatit 12, which are categorized as massacres, would fit the criteria put forward by the list. The "Cananea strike" is also known as the "Cananea massacre," and the "Yekatit 12" event includes the "Graziani Massacre." I don't know if other sources besides that given also refer to Cananea as a massacre, though for the Yekatit article, the source provided is scholarly.

The advantage of the list criteria provided previously is that they don't rely on our arguing about whether something really is a massacre or not, and instead compel us to demonstrate that, according to reliable sources, an event is considered a massacre by many people in some way.

I understand that we can't place footnotes on a categorization, but please forgive me for pointing out that there will almost always be "two sides to every massacre:" massacres are by nature controversial. We have well demonstrated that the event we are discussing here, the Granai airstrike, is also known as the "Granai massacre." If categorization is to be uncontroversial, is some greater level of controversy than that inherent in any massacre decided by the presence of a dispute on the talk pages? Or the identification of a controversy in reliable sources (scholars from Armenia and Turkey debate the Armenian genocide endlessly, whatever you'll make of that. I doubt there's substantial debate outside Turkey).

I'm sorry to give you all a hard time, but for reasons that have already been reviewed above, if the indiscriminate destruction of a village full of women and children is called a massacre both by locals and by many reliable sources, but cannot be categorized as a massacre, then the category of massacre may simply be an inoperable one. And that can be OK, actually, because there are lists, this is an encyclopedia, and in the end we have to work out a reasonable framework for classification. But I would suggest that the presence of many "massacre" categories means that Wikipedia has not yet determined the massacre category to be intractable. That could change.

Lastly, relating to the issue of footnotes, I really don't think that most readers who read this page, and see the massacre category, will be confused as to why it is so classified. -Darouet (talk) 20:30, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Reliable sources say that critics of the U.S. side of the war are calling it a "massacre." Democracy Now isn't exactly NPOV.

I don't doubt that ignorant local villagers would be calling it a "massacre." They were probably told that the pilots had been targeting the women and children. That's an even lower standard than I'd been crediting this argument with.

It might be easier to just change the name of the category, and get rid of the "civilian casualties" cat altogether. But then it would be hard to find an NPOV name that's still judgmental enough for you.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 21:17, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Although I am no longer convinced that the list criteria apply to categories, if we do apply it, Talk:List of events named massacres#Criteria for including events in this list specifically allows non-NPOV but reliable sources. Look at the fourth item in the table of examples. --Guy Macon (talk) 05:32, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You're saying that NPOV doesn't apply to categories. I think that page is wrong.

If they're right, then you need to change this at WP:NPOV so that everyone knows about it.

You can't have one set of rules for things called "massacres" and another set of rules for everything else.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 13:47, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You are doing it again. You wrote "You're saying that..." followed by something I did not say. This behavior is inappropriate. Don't do it again.

I don't think that WP:NPOV says what you think it does. If you look at the history of Talk:List of events named massacres you will see that a lot of thought by a number of editors went into the wording chosen. In particular, read Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Naming.

As for your theory that we cannot call something what its opposition calls it, It is found nowhere in WP:NPOV or any other Wikipedia policy. As far as I can tell, the only people who call a certain series of events in WWII a "holocaust" are strongly opposed to killing millions of Jews. Yet we still use that label. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:20, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral third opinion: "The Granai airstrike, sometimes called the Granai massacre,[reliable source] refers to the killing of approximately 86 to 145 Afghan civilians" - This is a clear cut case. It belongs in the category. It's in Afghanistan, we have reliable sources calling it a massacre. It's a done deal. --OpenFuture (talk) 14:36, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Guy, you most certainly did say it "specifically allows non-NPOV but reliable sources." I was just rephrasing it. If my rephrase was wrong then you should have explained what was different.

The reliable sources, in this case, aren't calling it a massacre. They're saying that it's been called a massacre by critics of the U.S. side of the war.

But I'm not going to waste a weekend arguing over this. Clearly, the "civilian casualties" category isn't inflammatory enough, and this kind of stuff will pop up again and again regardless.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 16:21, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The difference between

"NPOV doesn't apply to categories"

and

"Talk:List of events named massacres specifically allows non-NPOV but reliable sources."

Is that the first assumes without evidence that WP:NPOV forbids the use of non-NPOV but reliable sources for this purpose (or perhaps you are claiming that WP:NPOV forbids the use of non-NPOV but reliable sources for any purpose.) This assertion is not backed up by anything in WP:NPOV

BTW, it is not my responsibility to monitor your posts and correct the places where you put words in my mouth. It is your responsibility to refrain from doing so. If you are incapable of paraphrasing without setting up a strawman, don't paraphrase at all. And you certainly should not defend your misstating of other editor's positions. And, given your misunderstanding of WP:NPOV, I suggest that in the future you quote (not paraphrase) the exact wording of the portion of WP:NPOV that you believe supports your position. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:07, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As I understood it, non-NPOV sources can be used if attributed. This is, after all, what the Times did when they put "massacre" in quotes. I just didn't think that counted for a category.

I'm sorry if you didn't like my rephrasing. If you'll recall, you had suggested, "One thing that may help is for all parties to agree to go through a process where each of you states a paraphrase / depiction of each others position and then discuss and rewrite until both sides agree that the other side has accurately portrayed their position."

Obviously, you didn't think I did this very well. And for that, I'm sorry.

IAC, as I indicated earlier, I'm done with this one. You can have it.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 20:13, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please excuse my absence. Is this issue settled? One point I'd make about the discussion above is that the sources previously cited are not a priori in violation of NPOV. I would not expect the Hindustan Times to agree with spokespersons for the American military every time a village was bombed; there is no reason to automatically believe that would be the "neutral" attitude, even if one were an American editor (and I am).

Categories for massacres are by nature controversial, and perhaps we should not have them. But if we do choose to have them, based upon the number of newspapers and columnists who have addressed the airstrike at Granai, it seems as though that event belongs in the massacre category. I am not even convinced, at present, that its name should have been changed. -Darouet (talk) 23:57, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Assam#Etymology

Assam#Etymology (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

The current dispute is about the section Assam#Etymology. Specifically, it is about whether the name "Assam" can be traced to 13th century Shan invaders. A general consensus does exist that the name can be traced to them, but which User:Bhaskarbhagawati is resisting. A third opinion was requested, (for the discussion, look here: Talk:Assam#Etymology_of_Assam). At the end of the section two alternative texts are given: Talk:Assam#Alternate_Text_1 (User:Bhaskarbhagawati) and Talk:Assam#Alternate_text_2 (User:Chaipau). User:H_tan_H_epi_tas responded to the Third Opinion request. User:Chaipau has accepted the verdict, but User:Bhaskarbhagawati has responded by questioning the status of User:H_tan_H_epi_tas.

Users involved

Who is involved in the dispute?

Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Yes.

N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=Assam#Etymology}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

At first, attempts at discussion with User:Bhaskarbhagawati were unsuccessful. Messages left at his talk pages were blanked (see here). Comments on the talk pages were also deleted (see here). Then a Third Opinion request was made, which has led to an ad hominem attack on the Third Opinion responder.

How do you think we can help?
1. General guidelines what the next step should be.
2. Examine Talk:Assam#Alternate_Text_1 and Talk:Assam#Alternate_text_2 and judge which text is acceptable for Wikipedia.

Chaipau (talk) 15:00, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Assam#Etymology discussion

Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.

Maybe the original page section should be protected in some way to avoid further complications until an agreement is reached. As the Third Opinion provider, I make clear that I have never talked to either editor before and never had read the article in question before. I am not a resident or a national of the area either. I provided my unbiased opinion based on the alternate texts provided by the editors and the discussion in "talk". I read the arguments again tonight, and I still adhere by my original position that The Alternate text 2 suggested by User:Chaipau is better written, more clear, more rounded and with better and more critical use of references. In addition, User:Chaipau made a compromise already and accepted my suggestion that it should be pointed out to the readers that some uncertainty still remains regarding the etymology. So the Alternate Text 2 clearly states that "Though association of the name with the Shan invaders is widely accepted[12] the precise origin of the name is not clear.". I think this is a fair approach to the etymology issue. In addition, I noticed that User:bbhagawati is indeed of the habit to blanking his "talk" page, where I had left a warning for him, because he accused me of being a fraudster.

--H tan H epi tas (talk) 19:10, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

User:BhaskarBhagawati asked for a reference, and I have provided a scan of three pages of the book "Aspects of Early Assamese Literature". They are here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File%3AKakati1953_early_aspects_assamese_pp1%2C2.pdf

--Chaipau (talk) 19:28, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Though I am a regular mediator/clerk here at DRN, I do not care to intervene at this time into the substance of this dispute, but would like to make a couple of procedural comments: First, it should be borne in mind that opinions issued through the Third Opinion Project are in no way binding and are entirely advisory, for reasons I describe in detail here. Second, except in a very few instances it is perfectly acceptable for a user to blank his or her own talk page, including most kinds of warnings. Doing so is considered to be an acknowledgment, however, that the user has read and understood everything that they remove. See WP:REMOVED for a list of what cannot be removed and a complete discussion of the matter. Third, on the other hand, it is considered a violation of the rules to remove or modify other users' comments on any talk page other than your own, with a considerable list of exceptions which can be found at WP:TPO; having said that, it should be noted that this noticeboard is not a place to discuss or complain about conduct violations such as that. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 19:59, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to clarify that the examples of personal talk page blanking (and the absence of any reply) was given as an example of what transpired during the effort to discuss the issue and come to a compromise. Though I have given an example of User:Bhaskarbhagawati deleting my replies to his comment, I am not asking for an arbitration on this, even though I know this is a serious violation of Wikipedia rules. I shall be satisfied with some binding decision on the text, since right now Assam#Etymology looks like a bloody battlefield, as does the rest of the article. The sooner we can move on, the better. --Chaipau (talk) 20:31, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, another procedural note: There is no mechanism or procedure in Wikipedia by which to make binding decisions on content. All content in Wikipedia is included or excluded via consensus and even once a consensus matter is decided, pro or con, consensus can change. The closest Wikipedia comes to a mechanism to make a binding content decision is to invite the wider Wikipedia community to a discussion via a request for comments, but the purpose of even that is to try to come to consensus about an content matter. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 20:38, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The contentious statement is The academic consensus is that current name "Assam" is based on the English word Assam[15]. I would like to think that Wikipedia procedural rules can pass a binding decision on a nonsensical statement like "Assam is based on Assam". The quote User:Bhagawati has provided in the reference claims "Assamese is based on the English word Assam", which is true, but which does not claim what User:Bhaskarbhagawati is claiming that "Assam is based on the English word Assam". Elsewhere I have given quotes from a number of standard references (I can explain further, if needed) where it is accepted that the name is associated with the Shan (Ahom) invaders. Please note that the phrase "academic consensus" was originally used in this context: "The academic consensus is that the current name is associated with the Ahom rulers who reigned for nearly six hundred years, as evidenced from Satyendra Nath Sarma's quote from Banikanta Kakati", which User:Bhaskarbhagawati co-opts for the opposing view with a dubious reference, here. Originally, the academic consensus was shown to have been demonstrated when Satyendranath Sharma accepted Banikanta Kakati's position. This User:Bhagawati has edited away. --Chaipau (talk) 12:33, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I know that Third Opinion is not binding. Just wrote a summary here about where I stand, since my username is involved, to help other contributors forming an opinion. Also, I wanted to point out that disputing editors should try to show at least some good faith towards a third opinion, or else this procedural mechanism gets completely redundant and futile.

--H tan H epi tas (talk) 00:09, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I, like TransporterMan, am a volunteer clerk/mediator here at WP:DRN. I would like to expand on one point; earlier, the word "arbitration" came up. Here on DRN, we offer mediation, not arbitration. The key difference is that DRN was purposely designed to have no power to make anyone do anything. All we can do is to help you to resolve your dispute, or, failing that, guide you as to where to go next. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:36, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you TransporterMan and Guy Macon. We tried to negotiate one-on-one, then invited a third opinion and now we are widening the discussion so that a resolution can become possible. We shall await a decision here, and if needed shall go to the next level, according to the advice we receive here. Chaipau (talk) 22:18, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks User:Guy Macon for communication, though i am already following the discussion here and not wanted to interfere while procedures are being explained. Now, i like to put my view which is already discussed in Talk:Assam but i like to mention the same here too that i said "Assam is an English word used by British to refer a piece of land in North East India and same word is never used locally before and never referred to any tribe but land". For which i have provided the views of Scholars which mentioned both in main article and talk page. But further i like to add following links of national newspapers and websites which directed towards news item regarding proposal of name change of state of Assam due to its foreign linkage. Here are links, this Link is already there in main article for some time referring to said developments and this i like add few more: Link, Link, Link, Link

Thanks !

bbhagawati (talk) 06:09, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

User:Bhaskarbhagawati's claim, that "Assam is an English word used by British to refer a piece of land in North East India and same word is never used locally before and never referred to any tribe but land" is false. Assam and its equivalents were used to refer to both the Ahom community as well as the kingdom. Banikanta Kakati has said here: "Though the Shan invaders called themselves "Tai", they came to be referred to as Āsam, Āsām and Ācam by the indigenous people of the province. Early Assamese chronicles used all these variant forms to mean the new Shan invaders." This is accepted by Satyendranath Sharma, Amalendu Guha and others. Chaipau (talk) 15:35, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am a bit lost as far as the actual dispute here is concerned. I just don't feel confident that my opinion would be correct - it is too far out of my area of expertise. Looks like your RfC had the same problem. Is there any chance that the two of you could work out a compromise? I am thinking something along the line of "source A says X, source B says Y" with each of you providing your best sources. I can see that you both really care about making the article better, and clearly this dispute is working against that. Look in your heart and ask yourself how far you are willing to bend toward the other position. Maybe we can get you to meet in the middle. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:46, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe we can begin by examining the unambiguous statements made by Banikanta Kakati. User:Bhaskarbhagawati's position number (1) that "Assam is based on Assam" is refuted by Kakati's "The word 'Assamese' is an English one based on the the anglicised form 'Assam' from the native word "Asam", which in its turn is connected with the Shans who invaded the Brahmaputra Valley in the 13th century." User:Bhaskarbhagawati's position (2) that the name is not related to the Ahom's is refuted by Kakati's statement "Though the Shan invaders called themselves "Tai", they came to be referred to as Āsam, Āsām and Ācam by the indigenous people of the province. Early Assamese chronicles used all these variant forms to mean the new Shan invaders." Please read section 2, "Origin of 'Assam'" in the scan I have provided below (it is a multi-page PDF file).

File:Kakati1953 early aspects assamese pp1,2.pdf

The links that User:BhaskarBhagawati has provided in his note in fact refutes his own position number (1). From his first link, this is a quote: "The word Assam was coined during the colonial period. Historically, it was Asom, but during British rule Assam Tea became so famous as a brand that colonial rulers did not attempt to correct the state's name," said Priyam Goswami, head of Gauhati University's History department. All the links User:Bhaskarbhagawati has provided are newspaper links and they are silent on his assertion number (2).

Chaipau (talk) 12:35, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Actually it is a matter of controversy in State itself, so its obviously difficult for others to form a opinion. As matter is controversial in nature, i have already suggested earlier and doing again that it should mentioned POV's of different Scholars and Specialists (not own) with proper sourcing. Hope it concludes the discussion.

Thanks for opinion !

bbhagawati (talk) 12:19, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It seems Compromise and Scholarly POV's (as advised by mediator) won't work here.

Anyway regarding my position according to the disputing user that number (1) that "Assam is based on Assam" (actually its current name Assam is based on English word Assam) refuted by Kakati's "The word 'Assamese' is an English one based on the the anglicised form 'Assam' from the native word "Asam", which in its turn is connected with the Shans who invaded the Brahmaputra Valley in the 13th century."' We can easily see in the quote of said author that current name is English word which is inspired by native name Asam. Though native name was connected to medieval tribe but current name was used by British referring to piece of land (not tribe). Please note we are here discussing about only current name i.e Assam. And when i said based on English word without referring to its origin, i tried to say that particular word is English one.

And regarding my position (according to same user) (2) that the name is not related to the Ahom's is refuted by Kakati's statement "Though the Shan invaders called themselves "Tai", they came to be referred to as Āsam, Āsām and Ācam by the indigenous people of the province. Early Assamese chronicles used all these variant forms to mean the new Shan invaders." And asking for reading section 2 provided by him, "Origin of 'Assam'" scan copy. We are here discussing about current name only not about other names. So while preceding mentioned names maybe connected to a tribe but current name which possibly inspired from native name (its a another issue yet to discussed in details) is used only to refer to a large piece of land not some tribe by British. So meaning of current name Assam will be "an state in North east India" but preceding mentioned names (which we are not concerned here) are related to a medieval tribe possibly. so its meaning and references has huge differences. Current word is related to land only for which said word was coined. The upload page which disputing user refers to is itself mentioned "Assam" as an Anglicize word. I like to give an example, the name "America" is taken from "Amerigo Vespucci", but word America does not refer to said person but only the source word "Amerigo". This example is directly not applicable here because unlike America the inspiring word of English word "Assam" is not yet ascertained. On support of my claim i like to forward some views of greatest Scholars State has ever produced:

Banikanta Kakati says -

The word Assamese is an English one,built on the same principle as Cingalese, Canarese etc. It is based on the English word Assam.

Satyendranath Sarma says:-

Assamese is the easternmost Indo-Aryan language of India, spoken by nearly eight millions of people inhabiting mostly the Brahmaputra valley of Assam. The word Assamese is an English formation built on the same principle as Simhalese or Canarese etc. It is based on the English word Assam by which the British rulers referred to the tract covered by the Brahmaputra valley and its adjoining areas. But the people call their country Asama and their language Asamiya.

Due to fact that State government propose to parliament of the country for name change of State for its foreign links. Experts from State government also includes the Ex president of highest literacy body of State. Links are provided above in my previous posts. So i like to remind again that my claim is that current name "Assam" is an "English" word used by British to refer to a piece of land in "North East India" not a tribe. And this dispute is about current name not about any other names. Thats all i like to say.

There is an old saying that its easy to wake up a sleeping person but no so easy when pretending.

Thanks !

bbhagawati (talk) 15:59, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Every place-name used in English is trivially an English word – Russia(n) and Brazil(ian) and Egypt(ian) are English words – so why go out of our way to say that Assam, which appears in the English Wikipedia, is an English word? The phrase "based on the English word Assam" implies that the invaders imported the name from England and said, "This place needs a name; what words aren't we using already? Ah, Assam, a fine English word that doesn't mean anything yet, we can call it that." Why not be you satisfied with a compromise such as "Asam (or Ahom or Ačam) was (or is) the name of a tribe, adopted in English in the form Assam and applied to the territory"? —Tamfang (talk) 17:26, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Every place-name used in English is trivially an English word – Russia(n) and Brazil(ian) and Egypt(ian) are English words – so why go out of our way to say that Assam, which appears in the English Wikipedia, is an English word? It is not always true Because Bangladesh, Afghanistan, Sri Lanka and Pakistan are not English words though appearing in English Wikipedia. The phrase "based on the English word Assam" implies that the invaders imported the name from England i have given quotes from Scholars above which says Assamese is based on English word Assam, is that means either of two are imports from invading country ? This place needs a name; what words aren't we using already? Ah, Assam, a fine English word that doesn't mean anything yet, we can call it that. I have already discussed that every language is dynamic and keep on adding new words to its stock with interaction of new things like word "Affluenza" is an new word which means A blend of 'affluence' and 'influenza'. A social disease resulting from extreme materialism and excessive consumerism: earning more money and consuming more, which can lead to overwork, debt, waste, stress, anxiety, etc. and do the word "Burquini" which means Blend of 'burqa' and 'bikini'. A swimsuit worn by Muslim women which covers the whole body i.e. the arms to the wrist, the legs to the ankle, with a hood to cover the hair and neck. Both this words are English now. This two doesn't meant anything before but now it does. Even this words have some influence of existing words but meaning had a big difference.

Thanks !

bbhagawati (talk) 10:02, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Even if we accept the nonsensical "Assam is based on Assam" and take it to mean that Assam was what the English named the region, it would still be untrue. The British themselves spelled the name "Asam" (with a single s) initially, before they settled on the modern form "Assam" ("Muhammadan historians wrote Āshām, and in the early dates of British rule it was spelt with a single s", Edward Gait, (1906) "History of Assam", Calcutta, p240) The correct position should be "Assam is based on Asam". And rightfully, in a section "Etymology of Assam" we have to consider all forms of the name that preceded it. User:Bhaskarbhagawati's position that "We are here discussing about current name only not about other names" makes no sense.

Edward Gait was a British colonial officer and his 1906 work is the first modern compilation of Assam's history, which is now considered a standard. He has himself suggested that other forms of the name existed before the British ("Muhammadan historians wrote Āshām"). We seem to be spending too much energy on sorting out the Englishness of "Assam".

Chaipau (talk) 11:11, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Even if we accept the nonsensical "Assam is based on Assam" and take it to mean that Assam was what the English named the region, it would still be untrue. The British themselves spelled the name "Asam" (with a single s) initially, before they settled on the modern form "Assam" Disputing user himself stated here that British has picked it as Asam and coined the modern word Assam. Which is exactly my point that British coined the current new name Assam referring to land not tribe though maybe inspired by some earlier name. The correct position should be "Assam is based on Asam". I have already said that word that inspired Assam is another matter of discussion. We are here concerned about word Assam i.e coined by whom and referring to what ? And rightfully, in a section "Etymology of Assam" we have to consider all forms of the name that preceded it. Its not because i have not questioned about any other previous words except the current one.

Peace !

bbhagawati (talk) 12:45, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The current evidence suggests that the Dutch were the first to use the form Assam, much before the British. (Wahid Saleh, "What's in a name?", The Assam Tribune) Nevertheless, we can accommodate your insistence that we name it English in the following text I provide below (to follow the references, please look at here: Talk:Assam#Alternate_text_3).

Currently there exists no academic consensus on the precise etymology of "Assam". In the classical period and up to the 12th century the region east of the Karatoya river, largely congruent to present-day Assam, was called Kamarupa, and alternatively, Pragjyotisha.[19] In the medieval times the Mughals used Asham, and during British colonialism, the English used Asam and then Assam.[20] Though association of the name with the 13th century Shan invaders is widely accepted[21] the precise origin of the name is not clear. It was suggested by some that the Sanskrit word Asama ("unequalled", "peerless", etc) was the root, which has been rejected by Gait[22] as well as Kakati.[23] and it is now accepted that it is a later Sanskritization of a native name.[24] Among possible origins are Tai (A-Cham)[25] and Bodo (Ha-Sam).[26]

The text above associates the form Assam strongly with the English as User:Bhaskarbhagawati has suggested, but it is silent on who used the name first (was it the English or the Dutch?). I hope this is a compromise. The first sentence was the recommendation from the third opinion phase of this resolution process. Chaipau (talk) 15:39, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Coca tea

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Coca tea (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

I would like to simply attach the article somehow so the 3rd party could simply read it,and get that feedback instead of listing all the edited's,and who keeps editing it to the non factual/false knowledge.The reason is that this person has friends as editored and I fear thery would therefore be bias as I strongly feel this person is abusing her power as a editor.

Users involved

Who is involved in the dispute?

Paitalona (talk · contribs)

Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Not yet.

N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=Assam#Etymology}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

yes,,thru the talk page ,nothing,this person just threatns you,but list nothing to do w/factual proof about the article

How do you think we can help?

Simply read the article,use what is pointed out as referrrnce points in the article and put it back out to the public as the factual knowledge it is because it is verifiably 100 percent true. I really do not think it proper editing power to threaten folks w/nasty words if they don't know the laws on wikipedia Paitalona (talk) 23:32, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Coca tea discussion

Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

BP

BP (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

I am noticing bias on the BP article. There is only one other editor active on the page and we do not see things the same way. He sees my edits as POV pushing and continues to undo them. I see his editing as POV pushing and obviously pro-BP. He is having a hard time refraining from sharing his displeasure with me, which makes discussion a dead-end venture.

Here is the discussion: [[30]] Here is the edit in question: [[31]]

I took the problem to [POV noticeboard] and received only one reply, which was in complete agreement with my stance. But this did nothing to help the situation.

There is an edit war going on as he has reverted my edit 3 times, and I have done the same (not in a 24 hour period though).

Users involved

Who is involved in the dispute?

Rangoon11 (talk · contribs)
Petrarchan47 (talk · contribs)

Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Yes.

To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=BP}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

Discussion and POV noticeboard

How do you think we can help?

Please give suggestions for where to go from here. We may need some administrators to take a look and see which editor is POV pushing, and perhaps to ban them from editing the page, to me it looks like the other editor is working on behalf of BP to make their Wikipedia article favorable. Also, help with the edit in question would be great.

petrarchan47^T c 01:58, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

BP discussion

Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.

Here are 2 discussions regarding other edits which look like POV pushing to me [removal of BP oil spill financial aftermath] and [removal of the fact that BP's oil spill was the largest accidental oil spill in marine history]. petrarchan47^T c 02:32, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think an administrator's input could help. It looks to me that the points sought to be included are relevant and appropriate to this article. There seem to be only two editors involved and the opposition to the edit seems emotional and out of perspective.Coaster92 (talk) 05:18, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We aren't administrators here, but we are volunteer mediators. The goal here is to reach agreement. Right now I am waiting until both parties have posted their arguments. --Guy Macon (talk) 09:44, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Following Petrarchan47's comment above in which they state that 'to me it looks like the other editor is working on behalf of BP to make their Wikipedia article favorable. Also, help with the edit in question would be great.', and in view of their repeated attempts to impose changes to the lead of this article, despite having been reverted for very good reasons and a discussion being ongoing on the article talk page, I am unwilling to enter into any further discussion with them.

I have made over 130 edits to the BP article. Anyone is free to compare the state of the article when I started working on it and the position today. My edits speak for themselves. Rangoon11 (talk) 10:49, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For those who don't have the time to follow links to various discussions, I thought I would give a summary. Reading the intro to the BP article, the third paragraph stopped me in my tracks. It was one sentence mentioning that BP has had some environmental and political problems. That is well known, and flushed out in the body of the article. But in the same paragraph was a diatribe about BP's green energy investments. To me the structure of this paragraph seems to be a statement that is not favorable to BP followed by a rebuttal. I cannot see any other reason for these two ideas to be bunched together. To remedy what I saw as POV, I separated the 2 ideas, and added the most recent petrol investments I could find at the end to give a more rounded picture. From the body of the article: "BP's investment in green technologies peaked at 4% of its exploratory budget, but they have since closed their alternative energy headquarters in London. As such they invest more than other oil companies..." to give some idea of just how out of balance is the 3rd paragraph of the intro.

This edit has been undone 4 times now, and I have been told to "go get a blog" based on this edit. As you can see from the discussion, I was labeled a POV pusher based on my editing after this and my earlier edits, which consisted of updating the "Solar" section. BP ended its Solar programme at the beginning of the year and posted their reasoning on their website, saying it was no longer profitable. I updated the article with this information, making statements past-tense. The article still had a section about Solar in the present tense, with a picture of Solar panels. Rangoon11 immediately deleted BP's stated reason for ending it's Solar programme but did not explain why he did so. I added it back. I also removed the image of solar panels as it gave a false impression. This edit was not disputed.

Based on these edits, Rangoon had this to say: " Your edits to this article to date are very concerning as they all appear to be motivated by a desire to push a certain POV rather than to actually develop the article. Breaking out the sentence 'BP has been involved in a number of major environmental and safety incidents and received criticism for its political influence' into a one line paragraph is about as classic an example of POV pushing as I can imagine, designed purely to emphasise a negative aspect of the company.

...I also find it interesting that you think that that sentence and the remainder of the paragraph are so unrelated that they should not even be in the same paragraph, but then wish yourself to make a highly POV linkage between the amount that BP invests in renewables and in oil and gas through the use of the words 'By comparison'. I fully expect that you will fail to see the hypocrisy of this but I personally find it offensive.''"

In my opinion, to not break out the sentence (and yes, it should be flushed out a bit, i imagine it used to be a fuller argument but has been whittled down over time) is to hide the sentence, and to mute the facts. To follow it with BP's 4% investments in Green Energy is pure POV and more specifically "greenwashing".

Rangoon11 rebuttal above is alarming as well. The number of edits one has made to an article does not in any way give that editor ownership or privilege. But this editor does appear to have an attitude of ownership over this article. He is also working somewhat closely with a BP employee who is giving editing advice - I add this for your information but I am not claiming that this is a problem. I don't see it as such yet, but it is interesting how friendly Rangoon11 is with the BP employee compared with his attitude towards me.

"My edits speak for themselves" "I have made over 130 edits to the page" This gives me pause based on certain edits. One of the most noteworthy facts about the BP oil spill is that is was the largest in US history, and the largest accidental marine oil spill ever. This is a well known and easily verified fact. Yet Rangoon11 saw fit to erase this statement from the BP oil spill section of the article. I brought this up on the talk page asking why. His response was to insinuate he was unaware of any sources verifying this, and asked me for proof. My understanding of Wikipedia is that the editor, before removal of statements, should do their own research to find verification. I cannot believe Rangoon11 is being honest about his motives being NPOV, and that he saw fit to remove this bit from the oil spill section because, if I am reading his statement correctly, he hadn't been able to find supporting refs. I gave him 3 refs and he did not respond.

Another edit in question was the removal of a large section detailing the aftermath of the oil spill as it relates to BP's stock, etc. This was a big part of the history of the spill. I have been told that before removing sections from a Wikipedia article, editors are to bring the section to the talk page to discuss. His reasoning for the removal included it being "out of date" - but he told me "this article is about BP throughout its history and not merely the present day" when we were discussing me edits to the now defunct solar programme.

I hope someone can tell me how Wikipedia deals with companies that might be trying to edit Wikipedia articles to better their image. I have a hard time believing it's left up to individual editors who notice POV to deal with it on their own - as you can see it is not easy or effective. The snarky attacks are not fun either.petrarchan47 ^T c 21:26, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, the above violates the request to 'keep it brief'. Let me know if it's better to move this to my talk page, with a link. Thanks. petrarchan47^T c 21:34, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Petrarchan47, can I ask why you have actually come to this noticeboard at all when you are in parallel simply attempting to force your proposed change to the lead of this article (which is long standing and has been stable for a long period of time, and was the result of discussion)?

Rangoon, I have already stated my reasons for bringing this dispute to this noticeboard. The length of time that the paragraph has been in place is irrelevant. The paragraph either is or is not POV. Outside help is needed as you and I see things quite differently. petrarchan47^T c 22:40, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is highly relevant. The existing lead is long standing and therefore has the weight of accumulated consensus. It was also the work of multiple editors in discussion. You are attempting to make a non standard and bizarre change, which would create a one line, in fact considerably less than a line on my screen, paragraph, right in the middle of the lead, which is designed purely to give heightened emphasis to negative aspects of the company's history. You have admitted as much yourself, when you say that you feel that the text is currently hidden.

Whilst discussion is underway on this proposed change which has been reverted by an established editor for very good reasons please refrain from your efforts to impose the change through edit warring. Rangoon11 (talk) 22:52, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have never come across this type of grief or 'longstanding' (ie, "carved in stone") argument when making changes to the lead of any other article on Wikipedia. Wikipedia articles are always a work in progress. I am not alone in seeing the paragraph and your attitude as problematic. You think your reasons for reverting my edits are good ones. I do not. Changes to articles are not based on whether the editors are ["elite editors"] or editors like me. That's what I love about Wikipedia. It is (supposed to be) "for the people, by the people" and edits are to be based on their NPOV - not on who did the edits or on how long the edits have gone unchallenged. I can see why no one would want to challenge edits on this article based on my experience thus far.petrarchan47 ^T c 23:17, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes you have to date have around 140 article edits on WP, I have substantially over 100 times more. I have worked on the leads of I would guess hundreds of company articles and you appear to date to have worked on only that of BP. I do not expect a medal for this or even any thanks. However I do ask that you stand back and ask yourself, "why is Rangoon so anti this particular edit, and yet has not reverted 90% of my edits to the BP article?". My genuine, sincere goal is to make the BP article as good as possible and to make WP as good as possible. A half a line paragraph right in the middle of the lead would draw huge attention to that text, in much the same way as if the text were in bold or italics. Why make that sentence into a single paragraph rather than any of the other sentences? Why not adhere to the usual WP approach of having no more than four paragraphs in the lead? I can't see a good reason for it.

And I don't in any way believe that the current lead is perfect. For example it should in my view have more detail about BP's history. It currently has essentially none. However this particular change would not in my firm view be a step in the right direction.

I would like to add that I do recognise that you have an expertise on Deepwater which I personally lack, and is no doubt rare, and in that regard your recent edits to that section of the article are most welcome. The section was much in need of work. aRangoon11 (talk) 23:40, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I would imagine the lead is important to you as it is the most-read part of any article by far. As for the single sentence, I stated above that I believe it was probably a larger section that was scrubbed down. And I believe it should be flushed out a bit as it's quite awkward right now, even as it stands with your reversion of my edit. Perhaps you would agree that it needs to be expanded before the change is made. I have no problem with that. I have seen many a lede on Wikipedia where a single sentence stood alone in the intro. Over time these things get worked out. The 4 paragraph intro is not a rule, but a recommendation. From [Wikipedia:LEAD] In general, the emphasis given to material in the lead should reflect its relative importance to the subject, according to reliable sources. Do not hint at startling facts without describing them. The stand-alone sentence does violate this suggestion but that's easily remedied. The sentence should be expanded to reflect it's importance within the body of the article. The Green Energy part should be whittled down for the same reason. Take a look at the sections within the article to see what I mean.

I am glad you are willing to join the discussion. But, I cannot believe that your sincere goal is to improve the BP article if you would remove important information about the oil spill without doing an ounce of research. You can highlight the sentence and do a Google search in 1 second. Though I have 1/100th of your experience, I would never think to remove a statement from a Wikipedia article unless I had a good reason and had done some research first to back up my moves. You never answered me as to why you removed the oil spill information. I assume based on your statements it was to improve the article and Wikipedia? Obvious POV is obvious - one needs zero editing experience to recognize it.petrarchan47 ^T c 00:35, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding that specific edit, I can see how it might have put that thought into your head. Please note however that the text 'and caused the biggest accidental marine oil spill in the history of the petroleum industry' was removed from the "Safety record", where I felt it had no relevance, and was purely duplicative of the very long section on Deepwater in the Environmental record section earlier in the article, which deals with the size of the spill. My edit summary of 'dealt with at length higher up' was perhaps unclear on the point, and I should have explained it on the Talk page when you queried it. However I was annoyed by what I felt to be your confrontational attitude in terms of repeatedly making your desired change to the lead despite having been reverted for good reason, and so instead was terse.

I do stand by that specific edit though, that wording is not needed in the safety record section.Rangoon11 (talk) 14:38, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The way it reads now, the Deepwater Explosion caused (only) the deaths of 11 people. That's it, no other consequences you can think of? It also caused the oil spill, which is hinted at with the redirect to the oil spill article. But that is whitewashing if you ask me, and not fair to those who come to seek information. The Deepwater explosion caused a pretty big oil spill and that fact should be added. As it stands now, this is a single sentence section. How can you defend that after all the grief over a single sentence in the lead? Further, I have seen a few examples in your edits of late that scrub data about the financial after effects of the oil spill. This is history and very relevant to this article. It was daily news for about 6 solid months. There is no reason to delete the info altogether. Unless we aren't here to build encyclopedic knowledge but rather to - for whatever reason - mold this Wikipedia article into something favorable for BP's image.

The spill is dealt with at length in the (excessively long) Deepwater section in the Environmental record section just a little higher up in the article. Repeating that information again in the Safety record section would be pure duplication. Some of the financial impact of the spill on BP should probably go in the History section. We need to be careful to avoid duplication and overlap however, and be aware that the amount of content on Deepwater in the article is already excessive and undue.Rangoon11 (talk) 01:09, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Getting back on track: Bias and Undue Weight in the BP Lead Section:

The [Renewable energy] section is 1 of 26 sections in the BP article
The section consists of 3 small paragraphs, the 3rd and largest one discusses BP's Solar programme which is no longer in operation
Renewable energy is [no more than 4% of BP's budget]
5 sentences in the body of the article are dedicated to current renewable energy projects

Yet, in the 4 paragraph Lead, 1st paragraph last sentence: "[BP] also has major renewable energy activities, including in biofuels and wind power."

3rd paragraph of Lead: "BP has been involved in a number of major environmental and safety incidents and received criticism for its political influence. < How is this related to --> ? > In 1997 it became the first major oil company to publicly acknowledge the need to take steps against climate change, and in that year established a company-wide target to reduce its emissions of greenhouse gases. BP currently invests over US$1 billion per year in the development of renewable energy sources, and has committed to spend US$8 billion on renewables in the 2005 to 2015 period." < ie, 4% >

The 3rd para has a single sentence : These are very rough estimates, mind you. But take a look at the page, it's blatantly obvious we have a problem here.

The intro is in clear violation of Wikipedia guidelines for [Wikipedia:LEAD]. This is what we're here to remedy. Discuss.petrarchan47 ^T c 22:29, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The lead is there to provide an overview of the topic. That does not mean that the length of sentences in the lead or number of sentences should try to exactly mirror that of the article.

For me the lead most requires improvement through the addition of a brief summary of the company's history. We need to avoid the lead becoming too long however, it is already about right in terms of length.

The first and second paragraphs of the lead provide a good overview of the company's operations and the company's place within its industry. The third paragraph is where I would propose adding in some more historical info. As part of this I would be prepared to lose all of 'In 1997 it became the first major oil company to publicly acknowledge the need to take steps against climate change, and in that year established a company-wide target to reduce its emissions of greenhouse gases. BP currently invests over US$1 billion per year in the development of renewable energy sources, and has committed to spend US$8 billion on renewables in the 2005 to 2015 period'. Key points which in my view should really be in the lead are: the Anglo-Persian Oil Company and Iran connection, nationalisation and privatisation, and the acquisition of Amoco and ARCO.

This needs a bit of thought and work however.

The BP lead is by the standards of company articles in WP already pretty good though, and certainly better than peers such as Total S.A., or Chevron Corporation.Rangoon11 (talk) 01:32, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

To begin addressing some of the above issues, I made the following edits:

Added citation needed tag on the "major" renewables claim in the first paragraph of the intro. I don't expect a 4% investment can be described as major, but I could be missing something. When using a descriptive term like "most people", Wikipedia guidelines say that a supporting ref must accompany the statement.
Flushed out the "Deepwater Explosion" section, which recently was scrubbed by Rangoon11 of all but one sentence: "Killed 11 people". I took a few sentences directly from the intro to the main Deepwater Horizon explosion article so that it now reads: The explosion killed 11 workers and injured 16 others; another 99 people survived without serious physical injury. It caused the Deepwater Horizon to burn and sink, and started a massive offshore oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico; this environmental disaster is now considered the second largest in U.S. history, behind the Dust Bowl. I assume this information has passed the test of POV and reliability since it comes from an established article.

Luckily there are [guidelines] to help us get the intro balanced out.petrarchan47 ^T c 01:52, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Rangoon11 removed the word "major" from the renewables claim, along with the citation tag. Seems like a good move to me.

Rangoon11 also removed the last sentence from my addition to "Deepwater Horizon explosion" section, giving the reason that it was duplicated elsewhere in the article.

This is the sentence that was removed: "this environmental disaster is now considered the second largest in U.S. history, behind the Dust Bowl". This claim is NOT made anywhere else in this article. That is a lame excuse and was not even applied uniformly - that the explosion caused the oil spill is also a duplicate. To me this edit is POV pushing/cleansing/whitewashing with no valid argument to support it.petrarchan47 ^T c 02:06, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the Intro, from Wikipedia: Manual of Style/Lead: "The lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it can stand on its own as a concise version of the article....In general, the emphasis given to material in the lead should reflect its relative importance to the subject, according to reliable sources. Do not hint at startling facts without describing them. Significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article, although not everything in the lead must be repeated in the body of the text. This includes specific facts such as quotations, examples, birth dates, and titles. This should not be taken to exclude information from the lead, but to include it in both the lead and body."petrarchan47^T c 02:16, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly, it is getting exceptionally tedious that, whilst this discussion is ongoing, you are going to the article and making edits which you know are disputed. What is even worse is that, once reverted, you are simply making the edits again. And again.

Secondly, the Safety record section is about SAFETY. We have an Environmental record section in the article, which has a *very* long (excessively, unduly, long) section on Deepwater. That is the place for discussion about the spill and its environmental impact. It is questionable whether Deepwater should be repeated in the Safety section at all, but if it is, this should be very brief and concern only the explosion and the related fatalities.

You have unhelpfully completely ignored most of the points which I just made above about the lead. Perhaps you could now reply to them.Rangoon11 (talk) 12:26, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It appears I ignored your suggestions, when actually you and I were writing at the same time, and when I hit "enter", I received and "edit conflict" notice as you had just entered your bit. I was not responding to you because I had not seen your contribution - look at the time stamps. You and I are both editing during this dispute, shall we both put all edits on hold and discuss them here first? That sounds good to me.

Secondly, I have not seen any mention of the single sentence and it's need to be expanded with references. What do you suggest for fixing the problem of undue weight?:

"BP has been involved in a number of major environmental and safety incidents and received criticism for its political influence" without any refs (violating Wiki rules). This sentence is roughly 1/13th of the intro yet the subject matter is roughly 1/3rd of the article.petrarchan47 ^T c 15:44, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In regards to your suggestion for the lead, it is not becoming too large given the size of the article. As for the body, I can cut some of the 'fluff' from the oil spill section. As for addition of history and acquisitions to the intro, as long as it follows the guidelines for "undue weight", I am fine with whatever you choose to do. As you know, my issue with the intro is bias. I agree the statements about green energy could be removed from the intro, but not deleted. They should be moved into the body of the article. In general, for an encyclopedia, the more information offered, the better. I have concerns with the deletion of material for no good reason. petrarchan47^T c 23:34, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am happy to not make any edits to the article whilst this discussion is ongoing. I may do so if edits are made by others which I feel need to be either reverted or corrected, but otherwise will not go to the article to make any changes myself.

Although the lead is at the moment not too long, and could get a bit longer, if the history content which I have suggested above were added to the current lead then I feel that it would become too long. However if those two sentences which I have identified above were simultaneously removed (and yes am happy for them to be moved elsewhere in the article), I think the length would probably be OK. I think that the removal of those sentences and addition of the history content would go a long way towards addressing any possible concerns about the lead having an excessive amount of content on renewable activities, and would provide a much better summary of the article and overview of the topic.

On the point of a citation for the sentence "BP has been involved in a number of major environmental and safety incidents and received criticism for its political influence", in my view this is more than adequately supported by the citations within the body of the article.

On the point of weight, a lead does not need to contain a direct proportion of content relative to the size of sections. This is generally impossible and impractical given the small size of the article lead and to attempt to do so would merely create a low quality overview. The lead is there to both provide an overview of the topic (since many people will only read the lead) and a summary of the article. We also have a problem that the 'Environmental record' section in particular is very bloated and of an undue length. In terms of significance to the topic, which is a company, that company's own operations and the most significant details of its corporate history are of much greater relevance than important but secondary issues such as environmental record, safety record, sponsorships and the like.Rangoon11 (talk) 23:53, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Libelous and repeated mischaracterization of reason for leaving the State Department and incident with video store owner

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Gregory Stanton (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

Repeatedly since a malicious neighbor posted it, and now again, an incident involving Gregory Stanton in 1998 has been mischaracterized as leading to his dismissal from the State Department. Contrary to what is alleged, Stanton did not drive his car into a video store owner and push him through a plate glass window. The car hit the plate glass, the video store owner did not even touch it. It is also false that the State Department dismissed Stanton because of the incident. In fact the head of psychiatry at the State Department testified at Stanton's sentencing that a State Department psychiatrist in Bangkok had misdiagnosed Stanton and placed him on an inappropriate medication at triple the usual strength. The psychiatrist testified that Stanton's mania in the incident (the only incident of mania in Stanton's entire life) was a normal reaction to such misdiagnosis and wrong prescription. Because of these extenuating circumstances, the judge gave Stanton no jail time for the incident. When the Personnel bureau at the State Department tried to dismiss Stanton for the incident, Stanton appealed to the Foreign Service Review Board and won the case, and the Board ordered him reinstated. He left the State Department in 1999. The portrayal of Stanton's conduct in the incident, the legal outcome, and the effect on his State Department career is libelous. It has been removed from Wikipedia before, and should be permanently barred.

Users involved

Who is involved in the dispute?

I think the dispute involving the looks of his yard with Buddy Silverman has long since been resolved. I have no idea what animus the new poster may have against me.

I will try to notify Buddy Silverman, but do not know his user name. I do not know the name of the user who has re-posted this libel.

Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Not yet.

To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=Gregory Stanton}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

It was resolved with Buddy Silverman years ago, I think.

How do you think we can help?

You can notify me of Buddy Silverman's username, so I can officially notify him, though I can do so personally nearly any day. And you can notify me of the user who has reposted this libel. You must permanently eliminate this libel from the Wikipedia article about me. If it is not deleted, I will insist that the entire entry about me on Wikipedia be taken down.

129.174.233.95 (talk) 15:19, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Gregory Stanton discussion

Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.

I note that the info under complaint was introduced in this diff by Australian Scholar (talk · contribs). I'm not sure this is a dispute so such as a WP:BLP issue. Info in the paragraph is not entirely backed up by the reference. I tend to think the paragraph should be rewritten so as to be limited to that which the reference provides. --Tagishsimon (talk) 15:40, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I've removed the material from the article until more information is gathered. Also, I posed a notice at WP:BLPN inviting BLP experts to weigh-in. --Noleander (talk) 15:45, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I think it is unfair to ascribe any bad faith to User:Solarra returning the material, all he/she did was revert an IP's unexplained deletion of apparently properly referenced content. Reversions such as that are routinely done all over WP. The IP failed to leave an edit summary explaining the deletion. Unexplained deletions by IPs are almost always simple vandalism. Roger (talk) 16:07, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see any mention of user Solarra above. But your comment sounds right. --Noleander (talk) 16:16, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like the IP editor is now attacking other editors not involved in this issue - See this diff. BTW None of the Users involved listed above are correctly identified. Roger (talk) 16:26, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The problematic material was added by User:Australian Scholar in this edit. We can assume that the editors who are concerned about the material are unfamiliar with WP policies & practices; and particularly that they do not know how to parse the article edit history to find out exactly who originated the problematic material. So, accusing other editors like the one named in your diff above is an understandable mistake. Also, the user that originated this DRN may be unfamiliar with how to identify & list editors, so not much weight should be placed on the fact that the list of editors is wrong. If the material in question does turn out to be unfounded, then it must be excluded, of course, and editors that attempt to insert it should be cautioned. --Noleander (talk) 16:40, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like User:Australian Scholar only edited for a couple of weeks in Feb 2012 ([32]) and is no longer editing. So, now that the material has been removed from the article, the problem may be resolved. --Noleander (talk) 16:43, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I had a little look - and commented at the BLPN - I agree with some of the general complains from the subject, the assertion that he was removed from his position due to the incident and general weight issues, and wouldn't replace anything about the incident myself unless additional sources were presented than the Proquest sales archive of a single article. - Youreallycan 18:28, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The Zeitgeist Movement

The Zeitgeist Movement (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

~~Requesting discussion of two specific disputes:~~

1. The Lead section should contain the phrase "A global system in which all resources become the equal and common heritage of all the inhabitants of the planet."^[1]^[8]^[3], because this is the most important core idea and key fundamental principle of TZM, and the basis from which all other TZM ideas/ positions are developed. This central idea is verified by the following quotes from reliable sources:

The Huffington Post: "... the world's resources would be considered as the equal inheritance of all the world's peoples ..."
The Venus Project: "... a holistic socio-economic system in which ... all resources become the common heritage of all of the inhabitants, not just a select few ..."
The Palm Beach Post: "... In this world, we all are equal because the planet's resources belong to everyone, not a select few ..."

Requesting discussion of only one specific dispute:

2. The 'Criticism' section contains factual statements that should be removed entirely, or, at best, moved to the 'Criticism' sections of the three Zeitgeist movies, including statements and views that come from reliable sources but that represent (or that point to) extremely small minority viewpoints. Substantial minority views should be represented in the article; but these are not substantial nor prominent minority views. (Antisemitism is not mentioned at all in any of our other reliable sources [NYT, Huff Po, Palm Beach Po, Orlando Sentinel, 5 RT TV interviews, two reliable Israeli financial papers and a reliable Israeli financial TV channel], and conspiracy theories are discussed briefly, and dismissed, in these reliable sources.) Thus they should be removed entirely, or moved to, and debated in, the articles on the three movies.

Users involved

Who is involved in the dispute?

Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Yes.

To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=The Zeitgeist Movement}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

We have discussed on the talk page, without progress.

How do you think we can help?

Please discuss the ~~two~~ one dispute.

IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 17:07, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

the Zeitgeist Movement discussion

Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.

I have no history with the article. My involvement came about because of this discussion at ANI. Post-ANI, I attempted to set the editors on a course I felt would be most amenable to improving the article in a neutral, consensus-driven fashion. That discussion is on the article Talk page in this section I created. Apparently, Ijon is unhappy with at least some of my suggestions and felt it would be better to come here. At this point, I have nothing else to add.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:29, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm very happy with all your suggestions and grateful that you got involved as your contributions were helpful, neutral in tone, and fair. I'm requesting discussion of one specific dispute relating to the Lead section, and one specific dispute relating to the Criticism section.

And there has not been, nor is there now, consensus on the article talk page. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 17:43, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Template:CueIf filer does indeed request general improvement, he should use an rfc, as a DRN is a forum for specifics.Curb Chain (talk) 22:05, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Bbb23 did a good job of sorting through the talk page, seeing where the consensus was and restoring a neutral tone to the article. Earl King Jr. (talk) 22:20, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I revised the DRN; I'm now requesting discussion of only one specific dispute relating to Lead section, and one specific dispute relating to Criticism section.

And again, I'd like to reiterate that several editors have expressly requested that their names not be used to imply that there is any sort of consensus on the article. The only consensus existing right now is that there is no consensus. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 01:33, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think the proposed summary of the hypothetical and impossible resource-based economy is as good as any, and it is supported by several sources. IjonTichyIjonTichy also wants to remove criticism because he doesn't like it. That's of course not a good reason, the criticism should stay, it is also from a reliable source. --OpenFuture (talk) 04:09, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The proposed addition to the lead is the key core principle of TZM; without it, the Lead (and the article as a whole) do not do a good job. And suggesting that I'm not acting in good faith does not contribute to this discussion.

"Impossible" (your word) is close to the criticisms of utopianism and practical difficulties in a transition to the TZM-proposed global system. These accusations were discussed in the NYT, Huff Po, Palm Beach Po, Globes, TheMarker, TheMarker TV, and 5 RT TV interviews. The dispute regarding the criticism does not involve the reliability of the source. It involves the weight that should be given to allegations that only represent extremely small and insignificant minority views -- not substantial or prominent minority views. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 04:32, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure you are acting in good faith. You just tend to conflate "I don't like it" with "Not according to Wikipedia policies", even though these are separate things. It is not an "insignificant or minority view", it's not even a view. The source reports that the organisation has been banned from studiVZ for what studiVZ percieves as antisemitism. --OpenFuture (talk) 06:01, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"The original documentary that launched the Zeitgeist movement has been criticized by journalist Michelle Goldberg as being anti-Jewish. Zeitgeist concepts in that 2007 documentary have been criticized as steeped in far-right, isolationist, and covertly anti-Semitic conspiracy theories."^[10]

Goldberg and Tablet are reliable. But their reliability is only a necessary, not a sufficient, condition for inclusion. The issue is weight. WP policies clearly state that views (or statements of fact that point to the views, etc.) that are (or represent) a significant, substantial and a prominent minority should be considered for inclusion in the article. But extremely small, marginally small, negligible, insignificant minority views (or statements of fact, etc.) should not be included. Accusations of anti-semitism do not have sufficient weight for inclusion: they were not mentioned or discussed in our reliable sources. The NYT, Huff Po, Palm Beach Po, Globes, and TheMarker regularly and extensively report on overt and covert anti-semitism around the globe, helping expose the ugly disease of anti-semitism, rooting it out and attacking it. If anti-semitism was of substantial minority significance to TZM, these reliable sources would have discussed it in detail. But they did not even mention it. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 07:45, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You are contradicting yourself. First you admit that the sources that does either accuse or report accusations of anti-semitism are reliable, then you claim that these accusations are not mentioned in the reliable sources.

The fact is of course that they *are* mentioned in reliable sources. Your statement that the reliable sources who are uncritical to TZM must have mentioned this for it to not be a fringe view are baseless. Such a standpoint would make it practically impossible to add any form of criticism of anything to Wikipedia, as you can always find a reliable source that doesn't mention a particular form or criticism.

I think your efforts of washing away this criticism is a dead horse. We need to discuss how that section should be formulated instead of trying to remove it, because this criticism has reliable sources and is clearly not a fringe view, but one that is shared by several critics of TZM. --OpenFuture (talk) 08:09, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Your statement that the reliable sources who are uncritical to TZM must have mentioned this for it to not be a fringe view are baseless. Such a standpoint would make it practically impossible to add any form of criticism of anything to Wikipedia, as you can always find a reliable source that doesn't mention a particular form or criticism. end quote OpenFuture. This seems very basic and apparent, and the other editors that have returned that information to the article are in consensus on that. How is it that citations are supposed to agree with one another? Critical thinking comes from disparate views. Earl King Jr. (talk) 10:09, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about causing confusion, my mistake. I will try to be more clear next time. But there is no contradiction. I admitted the accusations are based on reliable sources. When I said these accusations are not mentioned in the reliable sources, I meant they are not mentioned in NYT, Huff Po, Palm Beach Po, Globes, TheMarker, TheMarker TV, and 5 RT TV interviews. These sources are critical to TZM; they discuss allegations of utopianism and difficulties in transition to the proposed system (very close to what you characterized as an impossible system), reduced work incentives, and even the 9/11 conspiracy theories. But they do not even mention anti-semitism. Thus, (a) The 9/11 allegations by Jesse Walker are redundant, and (b) the anti-semitism piece in Tablet, although reliable, is not prominent or significant minority, but a negligibly small, fringe, insignificant minority, and thus should be removed.

The accusation I'm washing away substantial criticism, or substantial minority-view criticism, is baseless. All the material in the 'Criticism' section, except the Tablet and StudioViz accusations of anti-semitism, and the Jesse Walker 9/11 conspiracy, were contributed by me.

And again I reiterate: there is no consensus. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 14:31, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

When everyone except one editor agrees, that's a consensus. At this point you are the only one who wants to remove the criticism about anti-semitism. Please understand that the addition of this does not make Wikipedia claim that TZM is anti-semitic. It's only reporting on the accusation; from several reliable sources; that TZM is anti-semite. Trying to remove criticism that is voiced by several reliable sources is against Wikipedia policies (except possibly on BLP's). --OpenFuture (talk) 21:00, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Tablet is a reliable source. If the accusation of anti-semitism is only against the movie, it needs to be removed and placed in the article on that movie. However, Tablet not only accuses the movie; Tablet directly, repeatedly accuses TZM of being an anti-semitic cult. Michelle Goldberg's opinion isn't weighty in relation to internet phenomena, social protest movements, or economics — she's a journalist at best; she lacks any of the field significance that would lend her opinion weight. Thus, the Tablet hate- and fear-mongering piece is not weight-worthy in relation to TZM. That is a weighting issue, not a reliability issue.

14:53, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't necessarily have a problem with Ijon's suggestions for the lead, but the problem with the article is more fundamental than whether the lead needs to be modified. The article does a piss-poor job of explaining what the movement is. For example, Ijon cites to a quote from The Huffington Post. That same HP article is currently cited in the lead for the material that is currently there. The HP has much better material that explains the history (at least up to 2010) of the movement, who started it, etc. Yet, none of that is in the body of the article. I learned more about the movement from the HP article than I did reading the WP article. In addition, the WP article states there was a split in 2011. We haven't discussed pre-split material and suddenly at the beginning of the body we are in a split? Rather than fighting about whether the lead needs to be tweaked or the criticism is undue, let's focus on getting the basics in the body of the article about the movement itself. After that, we can address the lead, which is supposed to be a summary of the body anyway, and ensure that criticism of the movement is balanced and properly weighted.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:04, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

my previous 'Mission' section (which was completely deleted) was based mostly on extensive verifiable citations from the HP piece, as well as citations from our other sources. I invite editors to (very substantially and deeply) revise this section (for neutrality, substance, whatever you feel needs revision) for inclusion in the article. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 16:17, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't involved in the article when it was deleted, but in glancing at it, I can see why it was. It's incredibly long and reads like a promotional piece for the movement. It's full of "in the movement's view" and similar phrases, although sometimes it lapses into the colloquial "we" as if it were written by someone affiliated with the movement. The article needs a section that sets forth the history and views of the movement in a concise, well-sourced fashion (shouldn't be called "mission"), not a polemic that attempts to disguise its promotionalism with disingenuous "in the view of the movement" qualifiers. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but, frankly, I cringed as I read it.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:42, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

All the references to "we" are meant to imply we, the global society, or us, humanity. Not "we" as in we, TZM members.

In numerous comments on the talk page I indicated it was something like a rough draft. The only good thing about it was that it was based on verifiable citations from the reliable sources. That's why I invited editors to edit it and I suggested that editors be brutal with it and edit it mercilessly. I fully anticipated that the final version would be very different than this rough draft. It was a (clumsy, perhaps) attempt by a newbie editor (me) to move the editing process forward, after the process has not progressed for years (I'm not exaggerating, take a look at the history page of the article). At least this (ugly) edit helped attract a bunch of new and talented editors to the article, who are now, under your guidance and suggestions, helping bring our article closer to an encyclopedic entry. Regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 17:05, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

How about this 'Mission' section? (Of course, the new section title would not be 'Mission'.) Automation seems to be highly important to the movement. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 18:18, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ijon, who is nothing if not responsive and energetic (

), has made this same suggestion on the article Talk page, and I responded there.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:02, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"The article does a piss-poor job of explaining what the movement is." - So does the movement itself, which is a big problem for Wikipedia with these kinds of fringe "movements". --OpenFuture (talk) 21:00, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is what it is, and we have to deal with it.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:18, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The Zeitgeist Movement (Zeitgeist is 'the spirit of the times' in German) is a global, end sand box Ijon version beginning. The opening line is wrong. The view of promotion is apparent. The movements view fails as a way to explain the information, but is made to sound like Wikipedia represents the official view without critical thought. Stop returning the same information over and over against consensus. Open Future accused you of vandalizing the article a while ago probably because of returning anti consensus material. I agree with him now. Earl King Jr. (talk) 23:12, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Earl, this is NOT the venue to resurrect accusations of editor misconduct and particularly accusations of vandalism. Your comment is not helpful.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:18, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Earl is referring to an old version in my sandbox. (a) My sandbox has nothing to do with the article; (b) The 'Lead' section in my sandbox is irrelevant, because I clearly referred only to my 'Mission' section.

The accusations of vandalism are baseless and without merit, and not constructive to this discussion.

In response to Bbb's suggestion, I posted a proposed rough draft on the article's talk page. I recommend editors not waste their time (or mine) on attacking me for the draft - instead redirect your energies to vastly improving the draft.

Tablet is a reliable source. If the accusation of anti-semitism is only against the movie, it needs to be removed and placed in the article on that movie. However, Tablet not only accuses the movie; Tablet directly, repeatedly and obsessively accuses TZM of being an anti-semitic cult. One issue is that Michelle Goldberg's opinion isn't weighty in relation to antisemitism — she's a journalist at best; she lacks any of the field significance that would lend her opinion weight. Another key issue is that accusing TZM of anti-semitism is not a significant, prominent minority view; it is only an insignificant, negligibly-small minority view. WP policies allow for inclusion of prominent minority views, without giving them undue weight; but the policies are against negligibly small views, because they are not worthy of an encyclopedic article.

Thus, the Tablet hate- and fear-mongering piece is not weight-worthy in relation to TZM. That is a weighting issue, not a reliability issue.

The dispute on anti-semitism is only beginning, and is nowhere near ending. Thus I restored the "undue weight - discuss" tags, because they must remain until the dispute is fully resolved (by this DRN, or by further dispute resolution processes, up to arbitration if necessary).

IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 14:11, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ijon, unfortunately, your proposed draft is a non-starter, as I commented on the Talk page. You have to stick to secondary sources. The weight tags are not supported by anyone but you, so I've removed them. There is no "arbitration" for content issues.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:49, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not the only editor who opposes the anti-semitism accusations. Two other editors (Reinventor098 and 82.153.143.237) have been trying to delete the entire anti-semitism paragraph over the last few says, as you can see from the article's history. I do not agree with their tactics - I would rather they join the conversation on this talk page instead of deleting. But the fact they are deleting implies I am not the only editor. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 15:05, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

If I may chip in, I do think weight is an issue here. The Tablet article is an opinion piece, not a reporting of facts. The issue of the reliability of the journal as a provider of information is separate from that of the value of this journalist's expressed opinions. Paul B (talk) 15:21, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nice to hear another voice. Actually, one of the things Ijon objects to is Goldberg's criticism is not directly of the movement but of the movie (although many believe the movies and the movement - there's a mouthful - are intertwined). He believes the criticism therefore belongs in the movie article, not the movement article. At the same time, assuming for the moment that the criticism does belong in the movement article, it's no different from any other criticism of a movie, which is, as always, subjective. It's also part of a pargraph on antisemitism because of the other material in the paragraph. Now, normally, I would argue that including criticism of the movie in the movement article has a WP:COATRACK aspect to it, but then we get back to the supposed intertwining of the movies and of the movement (the movies are supposed documentaries made by the movement's founder). I hope that completely muddies the waters. :-) --Bbb23 (talk) 15:37, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Criticism of a movie as a work of art is quite separate from criticim of arguments that happen to be presented in movie form. The first is "subjective", yes, but the second requires expertise if we are to use it. It's not a "review" of the movie ("I give it three stars"), it's a review of claims made in it, or rather of claims alleged to be implicit in it. I have to confess a dislike of this kind of claim about "implicit" antisemitism, which based on a fundamentally false logic (Jews have been said to be behind X by antisemites, therefore any criticism of X is really "hidden antisemitism"). Yes, antisemites claim that Jews are behing global banking, does that mean anyone who criticises global banking is really secretly criticising Jews even if they never mention them? The issue is whether this comment is significant enough to include. I don't think one article cuts it, but obviously a case can be made if there is more material on these lines. Paul B (talk) 17:14, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Paul, I understand your point and would normally agree with it. However, I think your argument is blurred somewhat when the review is of a documentary. I didn't see the movie and can't comment on whether Goldberg's criticism was as simplistic as you appear to make it out to be.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:36, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, it is refreshing to hear a new voice.

"The original documentary that launched the Zeitgeist movement has been criticized by journalist Michelle Goldberg as being anti-Jewish. Zeitgeist concepts in that 2007 documentary have been criticized as steeped in far-right, isolationist, and covertly anti-Semitic conspiracy theories."^[11]

Both of these sentences are directly sourced to Goldberg's piece in Tablet. The second sentence is a direct quote from the Tablet piece.

Bbb23 modified the second sentence, so now the paragraph reads: Zeitgeist: The Movie, has also been criticized by journalist Michelle Goldberg as being anti-Jewish. Goldberg describes the movie as "steeped in far-right, isolationist, and covertly anti-Semitic conspiracy theories."^[12]

Does anyone seriously believe the original second sentence (accusing TZM concepts, not the movie) is not going to rear its ugly head again (and sooner rather than later) in the TZM article?

Tablet is reliable. But Goldberg uses economic arguments (TZM's criticism of the giant, multinational, trans-national banks) to conclude TZM is an anti-semitic cult. But she is not an authority on the banking industry, economics, cults, internet phenomena, or antisemitism. And her accusations of cult or antisemitism were not corroborated by any of our other reliable sources: NYT, Huff Po, Palm Beach Po, TheMarker, Globes. The NYT, HP, PBP, TM and GS have and extensive track record reporting on (a) antisemitism and (b) criticism against global banks for malfeasance, causing the financial crisis, etc. Yet the NYT, HP, PBP, TM and GS, while reporting on the Zeitgeist movement, and while criticizing TZM (for utopianism, 9/11 conspiracy theories, etc.) have not even mentioned antisemitism.

The issue is weight-worthiness, not reliability-worthiness. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 16:01, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As I pointed out at the RSN (days ago) and the talkpage of the article (today), there is a peer-reviewed scholarly article "Grauzonen der Antisemitismusforschung, oder: Versuch, den ‚Zeitgeist' zu verstehen" [Grey areas of anti-Semitism research, or: an attempt to understand "Zeitgeist"] that explicitly discusses anti-semitism and the movie.[33]. With that information to hand, trying to exclude a discussion of the topic in the article based on WP:WEIGHT is a total non-starter. --Slp1 (talk) 21:14, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sondra Locke

Sondra Locke (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

I added a sentence to the article in an attempt to end an endless discussion on the talk page. It was reverted within minutes and I did not replace it. The edit summary by the reverter didn't make sense to me so I thought I would try this venue next to avoid any edit wars.

Users involved

Who is involved in the dispute?

Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Yes.

To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=Sondra Locke}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

How do you think we can help?

I would just like opinions on whether my edit should stay according to policies.

Canoe1967 (talk) 15:26, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sondra Locke discussion

Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.

I am a clerk/mediator here at the Wikipedia Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. I see that this issue has been discussed at length at Talk:Sondra Locke. Alas, you did not include several participants in that conversation (Qwyrxian, Ent, Flyer22 -- there may be more). Please add their names under "Who is involved in the dispute?" and notify them using the DRN-notice template. Once everyone involved is notified, we can start attempting to resolve the dispute. Thanks! --Guy Macon (talk) 18:24, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I added them to the list and notified them.--Canoe1967 (talk) 18:45, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This will be my only comment on the matter as the issue has been beaten to death repeatedly and has involved no less than 10 sock puppets all "supporting" the same position as Canoe's. First, some back story; the article has conflicting reliable sources that give two different birth years. Either one or both of these years is wrong. It's not our job to decide which date is better when the two sources are reliable (especially when it's a BLP). We do not do original research as Canoe has tried to do. Finally, as editors we do not editorialize BLPs. Canoe did just that here [34] after having tried the first two "don'ts" beforehand. The bottom line is that I reverted his addition, because an editor's personal commentary is inappropriate -- especially in a BLP. Furthermore, bringing that revert up as dispute resolution, prior to any discussion of the added editorial/ content/ commentary is, IMHO, inappropriate as well. Thanks. Erikeltic ^(Talk) 19:02, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There has been no discussion regarding this edit on article talk page. Nobody Ent 19:47, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The edit in question states, "Various reliable sources state two different years for her birth and no claim has been made that Locke herself caused the discrepancy." In addition to the article's talk page, the central issue has been discussed at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard and Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard. Ignoring the numerous socks of a banned editor, we have (to the best of my knowledge) Canoe1967 and two other editors supporting the use of primary sources to pick one of the sourced dates. The solid consensus, AFAICT, is to include both dates. Having established this, Canoe1967 now want to add a "warning" about the dates. Canoe1967 added it and it was removed. Here's discussion on the matter: "Various reliable sources" is original research; we have decided they are "reliable" sources based upon our usage of the word "reliable". That "no claim has been made by Locke herself caused the discrepancy" is also original research; for all we know there is an article on the front page, above the fold, in a major newspaper with full color photos and a banner headline that we missed. No one on Wikipedia (to my knowledge) claims she caused the discrepancy. Further, the statement creates a dispute to counter. Where did the idea that Locke caused the discrepancy come from? Canoe1967's mind, it would seem. - SummerPhD (talk) 20:43, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Look this isn't brain surgery chaps. There are a bunch of secondary sources giving a 1944 dob and another bunch giving a 1947 dob. There is also a marriage licence recording her name, her 1944 dob and the name of her husband. The objection to the marriage licence as a source is that secondary sources are preferred over primary sources. However, all the information can be attributed to secondary sources, none of it needs to be attributed to the primary source! The primary source merely establishes which set of secondary sources are correct in this instance (since the secondary sources that give the correct date and the name of her husband can be matched up to the marriage licence—after all, how likely is it that there is more than one Sondra Locke were born on the same date married to a guy with the same name?). The allegations of synthesis are not relevant because synthesis is when you take two sources, and take content from them to create a claim that is not backed up entirely by one of the sources; this isn't the case here because all the claims are backed up entirely by the secondary sources. The marriage licence isn't being used as a source for the claims, it serves in a corroborative capacity for the secondary sources that have been chosen. It seems to me a sub-set of editors are gaming the policies and guidelines to include inaccurate information, which are really designed to prevent editors interjecting their own theories into articles—they are not there to compel us to include clearly inaccurate information. There is an equivalent case being cited (Audrey Tautou), but in that case there is no compelling reason to opt for either date. In this instance, it is pretty obvious the 1944 date is the correct one. Betty Logan (talk) 22:04, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

How do you think we can help?

I would just like opinions on whether my edit should stay according to policies.--Canoe1967 (talk) 20:17, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Except, Canoe, the whole reason we reject primary sources is that they have no editorial oversight, and are harder to verify the accuracy of. In the case of the marriage license, I don't trust that 1) the license is a real, accurate copy of her accurate license and 2) if it is, that the information is accurate. When you get a license, they don't, in many states, require you to prove your DoB. This is the whole point behind how Wikipedia works--we rely on other experts (those who do research and who have editors that oversee to make sure they've done their research). We don't rely on our own ability to analyze primary documents. The article must retain both dates of birth, per WP:V and WP:OR. This is not gaming policies--this is the fundamental basis upon which WP works. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:04, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Looking closer at the sources you will find that the MSN one states 1944 and sources the Hal Erickson Rovi source that states 1947. The ABC source is broken now, but it was just a feed from The Associated Press. I may see if my library has a copy of the book and see how it is sourced. I emailed Rovi and the book publisher to have them check their sources. My email was kicked back from Associated Press because I wasn't on their inbound mail list. I may look for another email for them or have my local paper inquire.--Canoe1967 (talk) 14:59, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Canoe1967, please see WP:IDHT. I have told you several times: you can email whoever you like, but there response cannot influence our discussion in any way. Information must be verifiable to readers--some email you get from some publisher does not do that. We are not researchers. We are not biographers. We are encyclopedia writers, and that means we summarize what RS say. If you want to figure out the truth about her age, write a book, or a blog post, or whatever, but back away from the crusade here. Qwyrxian (talk) 21:37, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You are missing my point. If the sources change their dates then we can change ours. They may all end up with the same date, except the book. If they all use that, then we can go with that date. Or have 3 sources for one date and only the book for the other. Then it can go back into consensus discussion again which was ignored the last few times and just caused edit wars. If even one reliable source changes their date that would be a good argument for another consensus discussion. Hal Erickson (author) is used as a source for both years in two different sources. I just created a new article for him and am still trying to find his email. I may email his publisher and see if they can help. I did find an email for the The Associated Press and sent one that may change the ABC source.Canoe1967 (talk) 23:27, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

FYI

There is currently an open SPI that Canoe1967 is yet another in the dozens of sock puppets that the indefinitely blocked Excuseme99 has created to defend the same position. [35] Erikeltic ^(Talk) 19:18, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like he is also well on his way toward being blocked for personal attacks against other editors. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:44, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like your assessment was well received, albeit after the fact. [36] Erikeltic ^(Talk) 19:48, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Look at bit lower on the page.[37]

For the record, I do not believe that it is appropriate to even hint that someone is a sock until WP:SPI confirms it, nor do I think that just because Canoe1967 engages in personal attacks that this this has anything to do with his edits to the Sondra Locke page. on that issue "various reliable sources state two different years for her birth" should instead be the two dates with citations to the reliable sources, and "and no claim has been made that Locke herself caused the discrepancy" fails WP:V (did he check every possible source?) --Guy Macon (talk) 21:38, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Unbelievable. That SPI will fail and be closed within hours. I do consider this as an attack edit as well. That attack SPI has nothing to do with this page, but it seems some editors want to go out of their way to make sure opinions may actually be changed here by posting drama.--Canoe1967 (talk) 20:33, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is just this one article.

Joe Paterno (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

The first paragraph regarding the Sandusky scandal ends with this sentence, "Despite the gravity of allegations against Sandusky, none of the men involved, including McQueary, Paterno, Curley or Schultz, notified state police.[39][40]" I have two disputes with the statement. First, neither reference substaniates this statement as it is written. Second this statement includes a number of individuals who could feel injured by the statement and is potenially libelous. My reasons for these concerns are on the talk page under the section "Misrepresentation of References".

Users involved

Who is involved in the dispute?

Joelwhy (talk · contribs)
DWright (talk · contribs)

Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Yes.

To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=It is just this one article.}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

I discussed my concern in an existing section and the author ignored me. I set up a section to discuss his references not substantiating his statements. The author then responded to me but did not consider my concerns. I politely and in a detailed manner explained why I think this statement violates Wikkileak's policy against original research and that the statement is potentially libelous. The author insists he referenced this statement where it is clear the author has not. The author ignored my concern that it is potentially libelous.

How do you think we can help?

Review the article and discussion. If you find the author has not referenced this statement properly and share my concern it is potentially libelous, then ask the author to remove the offensive statement and provide instruct on possible alternative ways to rewrite the sentence to complete the paragraph. If you have found the sentence improperly referenced but do not share my concern it is potentially libelous, then instruct the author to properly reference the statement.

71.48.141.230 (talk) 19:35, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is just this one article. discussion

Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.

I am a volunteer clerk/mediator here at the dispute resolution noticeboard. I have no prior opinion about this and did not know who Sandusky or Paterno was until today (my favorite spectator sport is chess...).

In my opinion, "Despite the gravity of allegations against Sandusky, none of the men involved, including McQueary, Paterno, Curley or Schultz, notified state police" is far too editorial and not nearly encyclopaedic enough. There might be a place (Check WP:WEIGHTto be sure) for a mention along the line of "person X criticized them for not..." but it should not be in Wikipedia's voice. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:05, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The phrase "despite the gravity of the allegations" is probably unecessary editorialising, but there is no misrepresentation of sources regarding his failure to contact plice. That's in the source. The IP says that the source does not specifically say "state police", just "police". Well that would ceratinly include the state police, so I see no problem, but just remove "state" if it's so important. Paul B (talk) 13:04, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(See updated version below) ~~::Looking at those sources I see:~~

~~CBS Sports:~~
~~McQueary: Not mentioned in this source, listed first in the paragraph we are looking at.~~
Paterno: Fulfilled his legal requirement to report suspected abuse. wasn't charged, grand jury didn't implicate him in wrongdoing. State police Commissioner editorialized that he had a moral requirement to do more.
~~Curley: Charged with failing to alert police, lying to a grand jury.~~
~~Schultz: Charged with failing to alert police, lying to a grand jury.~~
~~Spanier: Possible target of investigation, not mentioned in the paragraph we are looking at.~~

~~NBC Sports:~~
~~McQueary: Not mentioned in this source, listed first in the paragraph we are looking at.~~
~~Paterno: Lauded in the grand jury’s indictment, praised for learning of the 2002 incident and immediately reporting it to Curley. No other mention in this source.~~
~~Curley: Charged with failure to report suspected sexual abuse of a minor, perjury.~~
~~Schultz: Charged with failure to report suspected sexual abuse of a minor, perjury.~~

~~Spanier: Grand jury determined that the he signed off on the course of action taken by Curley and Schultz. Not mentioned in the paragraph we are looking at.~~ (See updated version below)

These are some rather serious failures to follow the sources, and it is troubling to see a statement here at DRN that "there is no misrepresentation of sources regarding his failure to contact police. That's in the source" when one of those four names is not mentioned in either source and a name that is mentioned prominently in the source as "signing off" on not telling the police is not mentioned. Also troubling is the use of the word "he" instead of "they". I gather from what I have read in the one day since I heard of any of these people that Paterno is somewhat famous. That doesn't mean that we can ignore the other names in the paragraph we are looking at as if unsourced allegations are OK if the target isn't famous. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:32, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm somewhat confused by this dispute given that the failure of these gentleman to report to the police is well established in multiple sources already cited in the article (and via Grand Jury testimony and multiple indictments entered both in the media and legal record), but to put this matter to rest I've added additional sources from Sara Ganim in the Patriot News that link to both Paterno's grand jury testimony and the indictments of Curley and Schultz, both of which corroborate the statement (Ganim, as you may not know, recent won the Pulitzer prize for her coverage of the Paterno/Penn State child abuse scandal).

I also question your statement that the text "Despite the gravity of allegations against Sandusky" qualifies as editorializing - as a reminder, Sandusky is charged with child rape and multiple counts of child sexual abuse. That the charges against Sandusky carry significant gravitas is self-evident, unless you have some other characterization of "child rape" or "child sexual abuse."AVR2012 (talk) 20:14, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The reason that "Despite the gravity of allegations against Sandusky" qualifies as editorializing is not because the charges are not serious - if you wrote those words in a statement about Sandusky, nobody would questioning it. It is editorializing because you have decided (you, not a reliable source) that this is relevant to the question of whether Paterno immediately reporting it to Curley was sufficient. The sources give two different opinions, both of which are editorial. The grand jury lauded him. The police commissioner criticized him. No reliable source establishes that the seriousness of the charge is relevant to the question of whether he should have done more. (I personally think he should have, but I still insist that you cannot insert it into the article with no citation backing it up.)

A much larger problem is the gross violation of Wikipedia standards that you are defending. We don't allow statements like "none of the men involved, including McQueary, Paterno, Curley or Schultz, notified state police" followed by two citations that do not mention McQueary. Especially when another citation[38] has him claiming that he did notify the police. And in the same statement that has a totally ununcited accusation against McQueary, you let Curley and Schultz off easy. They didn't just fail to notify the police. They were arrested and charged with a crime for doing so.

The fact that you and others who are familiar with the topic allowed such a basic violation of WP:V as naming McQueary with no citation to back it up -- and that you are now defending that editorial decision -- calls your neutrality into question. You should step back and ask yourself why you are defending an accusation against someone who is not mentioned in the citations attached to it. I know nothing about sports. Do you have something personal against McQueary? --Guy Macon (talk) 22:14, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Whoa! Yikes!! You seem to have very strong feelings about a subject you've "never heard about." If your objection (from as much as I can tell) is that there's no mention of McQueary's failure to go to police, this can certainly be remedied given that it is so much part of the story is is practically legend by now, but I'll provide yet ANOTHER source (although many of them are already cited in the article). No, I have nothing personal against McQueary - read the grand jury testimony if you have questions about what he did. By the way, while I appreciate your feedback but quite frankly you should familiarize yourself with the subject matter before launching such a missive as a defense. To the extent that most of the nation is already aware of the issues at hand and this is new to you, I question your ability to accurately assess sources or statements in this article.AVR2012 (talk) 23:02, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Btw, the grand jury did not "laud" Paterno's actions. Please familiarize yourself with the record before commenting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AVR2012 (talk • contribs) 23:08, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've added an additional cite referencing McQueary's testimony addressing the fact that he did not contact the police. That being said, there are numerous references prior to this that you should already have been familiar with that discussed Mike McQueary's involvement. In regard to your complaint about whether the parties "did enough," see the added paragraph in the orginal article about changes in state law in the aftermath of the scandal. I also get a sense that you did not read the original article in its entirety - please do so. AVR2012 (talk) 23:31, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure what source you added, but the last cite in the string after the sentence at issue doesn't mention McQueary, either. And your arguments directed at Guy are misguided at best. One doesn't have to be familiar with a particular subject to enforce Wikipedia policies and guidelines. Indeed, sometimes it's better if one is not familiar with the subject. You have a sentence followed by cites. One or more has to support the sentence. We shouldn't have to look elsewhere.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:46, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The only thing I feel strongly about is that when Wikipedia says that someone didn't call the police, the citation that follows should actually say that he didn't call the police. I really don't think that is too much to ask, and I don't see why some people have a problem with me asking for that.

In the above list I made an error. looking at this version I listed CBS Sports and NBC Sports, references 38 and 39. I should have looked at 39 and 40. Of course reference 40 doesn't say that McQueary failed to call the police either.

Again referring to the version I looked at when I wrote that the exact words of reference 38 are "As for how all of this will affect Joe Paterno? The coaching legend was lauded in the grand jury’s indictment, praised for learning of the 2002 incident and immediately reporting it to Curley." Now, what was that about familiarizing yourself with the record before commenting again?

This refusal to follow Wikipedia's standards for verifiability is very troubling. I am seriously considering suggesting a topic ban for every editor who has indicated that he supports Wikipedia saying that McQueary failed to call the police and that he doesn't care whether the citations support that. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:21, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just checked the two new citations added. One doesn't say that McQueary failed to call the police and the other doesn't mention McQueary at all. What a shock. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:39, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Analysis of Citations

I just went through the 4 citations that are currently after the passage plus the one directly before it. Here us what I found:

Wikipedia: ['38'] "Despite the gravity of allegations against Sandusky, none of the men involved, including McQueary, Paterno, Curley or Schultz, notified state police." ['39'] ['40'] ['41'] (Link to version examined)

NBC Sports: ['38']

McQueary: Not mentioned in this source.

Paterno: Lauded in the grand jury’s indictment, praised for learning of the 2002 incident and immediately reporting it to Curley. No other mention in this source.

Curley: Charged with failure to report suspected sexual abuse of a minor, perjury.

Schultz: Charged with failure to report suspected sexual abuse of a minor, perjury.

Spanier: Grand jury determined that the he signed off on the course of action taken by Curley and Schultz.

CBS Sports: ['39']

McQueary: Not mentioned in this source.

Paterno: Fulfilled his legal requirement to report suspected abuse. wasn't charged, grand jury didn't implicate him in wrongdoing. State police Commissioner editorialized that he had a moral requirement to do more.

Curley: Charged with failing to alert police, lying to a grand jury.

Schultz: Charged with failing to alert police, lying to a grand jury.

Spanier: Possible target of investigation. police withholding details.

New York Daily News: ['40']

McQueary: No mentioned of not calling police.

Paterno: Followed the law by alerting his superiors at Penn State (one of whom was the head of the university police).

Curley: "Charges related to the Jerry Sandusky child sex abuse case" - No specifics.

Schultz: "Charges related to the Jerry Sandusky child sex abuse case" - No specifics.

Spanier: Not mentioned in this source.

Patriot-News (via pennlive.com) ['41']

McQueary: Not mentioned in this source.

Paterno: "reported" the abuse (does not say to who)

Curley: Not mentioned in this source.

Schultz: Not mentioned in this source.

Spanier: Not mentioned in this source.

Wikipedia:

McQueary: Did not notify state police. (Claim not found in citations, omits cited fact that McQueary says that he did notify police.)

Paterno: Did not notify state police. (omits cited fact that Paterno notified the head of University Police - Schultz.)

Curley: Did not notify state police. (Proper citation, but omits him being arrested and charged for same.)

Schultz: Did not notify state police. (Proper citation, but omits him being being arrested and charged for same.)

Spanier: Not mentioned in this part of Wikipedia article.

These are obvious sourcing problems that should have been addressed by the editors working on the page long before this reached DRN. Instead, I see Paul B (talk) [39] and AVR2012 (talk) [40] [41] defending the practice of Wikipedia making accusations against living persons (see WP:BLP) that are not in the citations (see WP:V) and adding adding other citations that do not support the accusation while falsely claiming that they do. This is a serious violation of Wikipedia's policies. --Guy Macon (talk) 09:28, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I make no false claims - each article has links to testimony supporting the sentence. After reading all of the above, I'm gleaning that "sources" by definition do not include the links they provide (despite the fact the links are embedded in them). You should be more helpful as a "dispute resolution volunteer" with newer editors such as myself in clarifying these issues- that would have saved us a lot of time. In any event, I've now amended the sourcing so that the source itself (irrespective of embedded links) is corroborative.AVR2012 (talk) 23:32, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Mercury Tower topping Shard

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_buildings_in_Europe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_City_Tower

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SkVrIaQy6Y

its about this article Mercury tower in Moscow is topping the shard tower in London for sure, the thing is the shard is a bit earlier finished (mercury tower is still be finished soon 2012 though). But the mercury tower already unfinished is higher than the shard also note that the list says This list includes under construction buildings that have already been topped out. And the shad was even included in the list when it wasnt even finished yet so i put in their the mercury tower and people like Paravane are deleting it constantly cuz they are british and dont want to be number 2. Obviously i am right, what can i do??--Shokioto22 (talk) 00:14, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

X-ray computed tomography

X-ray computed tomography (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

The issue is about adverse effects of CT scans, and typical radiation doses of CT scans. I have contributed to that section, and an other user:Jmh649 deleted my contributions, without discussion, without asking for refs, and without giving time to provide refs, and without stating phrases that are not according to rules, and without allowing time to correct them.

Users involved

Who is involved in the dispute?

The user Jmh649 do not understand radiation dose units, and yet he deleted a lot of subject matter related to it, and instead has wrote an error, namely mGy=mSv for xrays, which he quoted from a web page, which is not even a primary research. This after deleting my contributions, that were accurate, because he claimed they were from primary sources. In addition, after I was referred to the rules, I did not find anything in the rules preventing the use of primary sources, and found that the rules were just about the way that primary sources should be used. Instead of helping me achieve the semantic requirements, the user opted to delete everything I have contributed.

Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Yes.

To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=X-ray computed tomography}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

I have asked the user Jmh649 to resolve the issue at the talk page, and after that he has wrote his issues with my contributions. I have replied with an answer, and he went on and deleted my contributions again, without answering to my reply.

How do you think we can help?

I don't know, I am new to wikipedia.

My last version is at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=X-ray_computed_tomography&oldid=496795977#Adverse_effects . You will be able to see that the adverse effects section, and typical dose section in the the current version is under-representing compared to my last version, and is also structured wrong stating "contrast" as an adverse effect title, instead of stating the adverse effects related to contrast - immediate death, pseudo allergic response, kidney damage, etc. You will also see in the 'Typical scan dose' section, that Jmh649 deleted the most relevant doses, which were quoted from a research, and instead wrote an error in the title of the table column mGy=mSv. This error reflect over the lack of understanding of the subject matter of Jmh649. I don't understand how someone that doesn't understand the subject matter, allow himself to delete other people contributions, and without even reading the referenced articles. I think that the referenced articles were not read by Jmh649, since their content directly contradict the 'mSv=mGy' error that Jmh649 wrote. Jmh649 also does not understand that CT cause patients' bodies to absorb ionizing radiation, and for that reason deleted adverse effects of ionizing radiation from the section, since the references did not include the word CT, btw at least one of them did mention CT:

"Irradiation of the brain with dose levels overlapping those imparted by computed tomography can, in at least some instances, adversely affect intellectual development. Although formal diagnostic protocols do not advocate computed tomography in cases of minor head injuries, clinical practice dictated by legal and financial considerations does not always adhere to these protocols. The risk and benefits of computed tomography scans in minor head trauma need re-evaluating."

I think that the article should be reverted to my version, since in one day 200,000 people undergo CT examinations in the US alone, and denying them from knowledge of adverse effects such as quoted above is evil. After that, I think that if the text don't conform to wikipedia's standard, then a point to point discussion over its content should be conducted at the talk page until all the research referenced in my version regarding adverse effects would be appropriately expressed in the wikipedia article.

79.179.224.214 (talk) 04:07, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

X-ray computed tomography discussion

Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.

I am a volunteer clerk/mediator here at the Wikipedia Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. I have no particular connection with this subject, but I am an engineer with experience with other kinds of medical diagnostic equipment and I have been CT scanned. I have some preliminary thoughts before I jump into the meat of the dispute

79.179.224.214, it looks to me like this is the situation we are in. You clearly want to do the right thing and improve the article (I see no signs of self-promotion or vandalism). It also looks like you are new to Wikipedia and somewhat unfamiliar with our standards, and have made a few mistakes. (No problem, we all have done the same.)

I think we can work together and craft something that meets your concerns and which conforms to Wikipedia's standards. This, of course, depends on whether you are willing to work with us and learn not only our policies, but the reasoning behind them. If you are willing to do that, your reward will be gaining the ability to help an audience that is literally millions of times larger than the audience you could reach with a website, blog, or even a peer-reviewed paper in a scientific journal. Wikipedia would benefit as well; we need more editors with experience in these areas.

Regarding the difficulties you are experiencing, one problem is that you are reading various policy pages that others are referring you to with an eye towards justifying the changes you want to make. This, naturally, biases your interpretation.

Another problem is that all of those policies were written and edited using the same techniques that were used to create the rest of Wikipedia, which means that the quality varies from "crystal clear" to "as clear as mud".

Finally, Wikipedia's policy pages are descriptive, not prescriptive. They are a convenient way to inform new editors what the longstanding consensus is on various issues, but they are a (possibly flawed) description of the consensus, not the consensus itself. Someone who has been around longer and has seen the policies applied in various situations naturally has a better feel for what the consensus is than a newbie who is just looking at the policies for the first time.

A procedural note: I see that under "Who is involved in the dispute?" you list only yourself and Jmh649, and you have correctly noted that Jmh649 has not discussed this on the talk page. However, several other editors have been discussing this with you, and you did not list them. You need to add all of those names above under "Who is involved in the dispute?" and notify them.

Later, we will look at the edit in question in detail. Please look at this link: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=X-ray_computed_tomography&diff=496795977&oldid=496791930 That is the edit we will be discussing. It may be helpful to click on the Delta button at the bottom to see another way of seeing the edit, and of course there are "Revision as of" links at the top that will show you the article before and after the edit. Thanks! --Guy Macon (talk) 18:52, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have added all the people I that commented over the disputed matter to the list here, and I have informed them about the dispute on their respective talk page. 79.179.224.214 (talk) 15:06, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

user 79.179.224.214, thanks for exploring Wikipedia and seeking out this process. This dispute began on 9 June and now after 2 days you are taking the issue here. I would not have called this a dispute; it seemed like a discussion to me and there is still active talk and open questions on the talk page. I propose that dispute resolution be postponed until the discussion on the article talk page is finished. It is more useful to have discussion on the article's subject on its own talk page than it would be to have it here. Also, I see no reason stated as to why the discussion should be here rather than there. Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:18, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Blue Rasberry, I apologize, that I have invited you to the dispute late. Please understand, that I thought that only I and Jmg649 are the parties to this dispute. This dispute entry was started on 04:07, 10 June 2012, due to an advice, that I have received. The talk page version at the time was 02:56, 10 June 2012, and my perception of the dispute was as stated in this dispute entry. 79.179.224.214 (talk) 16:12, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The additional names were added at my request. There is no requirement that anyone respond, but I wanted everyone involved to be notified. In my opinion, in this particular case it is useful to have a discussion here in addition to any discussion on the article's talk page. As a clerk/mediator at the dispute resolution noticeboard, I have given 79.179.224.214 some advice that he is not getting on the article talk page (see the top of this section) and which, I believe, will resolve this issue. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:11, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I read your advice. I am not sure if I understand from it what you want me to understand. For example, did you imply, that the policy pages (like WP:MEDRS) are irrelevant, and what is relevant is what long time editors think?

More to the point, is the claim that primary research can never be used true or not? 79.179.224.214 (talk) 17:31, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not at all irrelevant, nor do the opinions of individual long time editors trump written policy. What I was trying to say was that when several long time editors disagree with you about the interpretation of a policy, there is a possibility that you have gotten it wrong. Or not. I apologize for being unclear. The other question you ask is more interesting. I am going to outdent to give it more room.

Ah. Much better. The question at hand is:

"Is the claim that primary research can never be used true or not?"

First, let's look at the edit in question:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=X-ray_computed_tomography&diff=prev&oldid=496795977

In this case, because it was all in a new section, we can take a shortcut. First we can click on the "Revision as of 20:21, 9 June 2012" on the upper right:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=X-ray_computed_tomography&oldid=496795977

then append the section to that:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=X-ray_computed_tomography&oldid=496795977#Extensive_DNA_damage

Which makes it easy to scroll down and look at references 10 through 15, which the section cites.

Before even getting in to the "primary research can never be used" claim, I see a problem, and you should see it too if you look. Compare the references cited by your newly-added "Extensive DNA damage" section ([10] through [15]) with those from the existing "Cancer" section ([26] through [34]) -- or with the citations used in hundreds of other Wikipedia articles. Do you see the difference?

The cancer section has cites like "Estimated Risks of Radiation-Induced Fatal Cancer from Pediatric CT" and "CT scans on children 'could triple brain cancer risk'" -- clearly cites to reliable sources talking specifically about the effect of CT scans on humans. Forget about primary or secondary for a moment. They are reliable sources talking specifically about the effect of CT scans on humans.

Your new section has cites like "The line is a linear fit to the data points with a slope of 35 DSBs per cell per Gy." and "DNA double strand break repair in brain: Reduced NHEJ activity in aging rat neurons" The first is about an experiment done with cells grown in a medium and the second is an experiment done with aging rats. So, how do I know how the experiments done with cells or rats apply to humans who get CT scans? Simple! All I have to do is to take the word of some unknown person who edits Wikipedia from IP address 79.179.224.214! Do you see the problem? If, as you claim, those experiments with cells and rats apply to CT scans of humans, why is it that you cannot find a reliable source that says that? Why, it almost sounds like you have done some original research!

By an amazing stroke of coincidence, Wikipedia has a policy that covers this exact situation. It is called WP:PRIMARY and it says:

"Material based purely on primary sources should be avoided. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than to the original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors."

Original analysis of the primary-source material... sounds a lot like what I described you doing above concerning cells and rats, doesn't it?

OK, let's look at a modified version to your question: Is it true that someone told you that primary sources can never be used? I looked at every single comment on Talk:X-ray computed tomography, then I went back and searched for all uses of the word "primary". The only person who has said anything about primary sources never being used is you. Nobody told you that. You made it up. Wikipedia has a page about that as well: Straw man.

As I said before, if you are willing to work with us and learn not only our policies, but the reasoning behind them, you will be able to become a productive part of Wikipedia. Alas, it is generally true that the amount of time spent explaining Wikipedia's policies to someone is inversely proportional to the odds of them ever becoming a productive member of the Wikipedia community. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:13, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

With regard to "The line is a linear fit to the data points with a slope of 35 DSBs per cell per Gy." - The interactions between DNA molecules and X-rays is a matter of physics, thus it does not matter where the DNA molecules are located. It only depends on the structure of the DNA molecule, and the nature of the X-Ray, regardless of the location of the cell containing the DNA molecule be it in the body, or out of it. Since the DNA is the same and the X-Ray is the same, the number of DSBs per Gy would be the same. I have begun to search secondary sources for the same data (btw google show that that article is cited by more than 800 other articles), and I have found similar numbers stated for in vivo, by what I think are secondary sources, and I have asked for confirmation, that they are indeed secondary sources, on the article talk page. Here are the articles: "Radiation induces thousands of single-strand breaks per Gray, but only about 50 double-strand breaks.", "20–40 DSB foci per nucleus per Gray of radiation for a mammalian cell", and "For X-rays, on average 20–30 DSBs are induced per Gray". It is true that in this experiment the DNA molecules were in cells grown in medium, but in other experiments the DNA molecules were in peripheral lymphocytes that were extracted from human blood, after the human has undergone a CT. See here. About the rats's neuron repair mechanism, maybe that is not as obvious as the X-Ray interaction with DNA, but that source was just to support that the repair mechanism is faulty. There are many other sources, that support that the DNA repair mechanism is faulty in humans, but I was not asked specifically about that source until now, and I understood that I was told off, that I can't use any primary source, because my contribution was deleted and in reply to my question I was told: "All of the refs supporting this text are primary research papers", "The issue with your additions had to do with the references. The references where simply not appropriate", "The same thing as with all the content in question. It was not supported by proper references.", "If you insist on using primary sources there is really nothing more to discuss.", and "For important medical information we use ideal sources." the last in reply to me saying "It does not state that non ideal sources can't be used". For this reason I asked "More to the point, is the claim that primary research can never be used true or not?", I am not sure if I got an answer to that. Note, that the last question semantics doesn't state that any one made that claim, yet I want to know if that claim is true or false, in order to know if the deletions have merit or not. Having said that, and looking into the definition of straw man, I think that what I was told "If you insist on using primary sources there is really nothing more to discuss." is pretty much saying you can't use primary sources period. Thus, no straw man. After I have defended the honor of the mighty 79.179.224.214, I humbly request, please answer. 79.179.224.214 (talk) 01:07, 12 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You see, no body has questioned the content of the articles, until now, they just deleted it, and said it is not proper, not appropriate, primary.

Is this article a secondary review? (see e.g. page 25 that include a table, that concentrate many other researches that were reviewed.) 79.179.224.214 (talk)

Primary sources can be used, but not the way you are trying to use them. They are to be used for things that are uncontroversial, uncontested, directly stated in the source (no interpretation or other use of your own knowledge or expertise allowed) and they have to be reliable sources. For example, you can use http://www.robinwilliams.com/ as a source for a claim that actor Robin Williams was born in Chicago (http://www.robinwilliams.com/content/biography says that explicitly, and the Robin Williams website is a reliable source on the topic of Robin Williams).

It may very well be true that the other editors on the page did a poor job of explaining Wikipedia's policies to you, but they did give you links to the actual policies, and everything you need to know is contained in those policies. It is your responsibility to find out what Wikipedia's policies are and to follow them. The only responsibility someone who reverts your changes has is to provide a link to the relevant policy (and, of course, the policy has to actually apply). They don't have to explain the policy to you.

Your explanation above about DNA molecules and X-rays is a prime example of the wrong thinking you have fallen into. It violates WP:OR (specifically WP:SYNTH) and WP:V, (also see Wikipedia:Attribution#No original research)) and so cannot be used. Again, look at what you want to insert into Wikipedia and at the references you are citing, then look at what is already on Wikipedia and the references supporting that. Surely you are capable of seeing and understanding the difference between the two. What conclusion do you draw from them being so radically different? --Guy Macon (talk) 01:50, 12 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

But I stated: "Experiments showed that ionizing radiation cause DNA double strand breaks at a rate of 35 double strand breaks per cell per Gray", clearly the primary source state exactly that. Is that primary source unreliable? Is it controversial? Is there an other problem? Can it be fixed?

War of the Pacific

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

War of the Pacific (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

the article has multiple issues that have been explained in the talk page. Iraised 37 issues and only few of them has been resolved. The users Cloudaoc and MarshalN20 have deleted the tag.

Users involved

Who is involved in the dispute?

User Cloudaoc has never contributed with own ideas to the discussion. He simply follows MarshalN20.

Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Yes.

To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=War of the Pacific}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

The talk page of the article has a long record of unfinished discussions

How do you think we can help?

reinsert the {{multiple issues}}

Best regards, Keysanger (what?) 19:40, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

War of the Pacific discussion

Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.

The list of raised issues can be read in User:Keysanger/liste.--Best regards, Keysanger (what?) 19:42, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Witness (1985 film), Eric Carmen

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Witness (1985 film) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Eric Carmen (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

User 213.79.52.203 added their own, unsourced analysis (not denied) to the article Witness (1985 film). I and another user have reverted several times, but IP has reverted back each time. After observing this behavior, I had a look at the IP's history, and reverted their one other contribution (as being unencyclopedic), which IP has also reverted back.

Users involved

Who is involved in the dispute?

Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Yes.

To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=Witness (1985 film), Eric Carmen}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

Initiated Talk:Witness_(1985_film)#Analysis_of_lemonade_drinking talk page discussion. Warned user for edit warning, including link to discussion. IP defended OR by repeating OR. I asked for a single reliable source. No reply.

How do you think we can help?

Please help to stop this new IP editor from persisting with edits that are clearly in violation of WP policy and for which they make no effort to defend in terms of policy.

Hobbes Goodyear (talk) 00:23, 12 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Witness (1985 film), Eric Carmen discussion

Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.

Closing note: I am a regular mediator/clerk here at DRN. I'm sorry, but what you are actually reporting is a conduct dispute, not a content dispute, and this noticeboard is just for content disputes. Moreover, there's been no discussion at the Eric Carmen article and this noticeboard also requires substantial discussion before help is requested here. Finally, the IP editor did make a good faith (if mistaken) response at the Witness article and it's only been a day since then. While regular editors generally respond quickly, occasional editors may go a few days before replying. There is no hurry. If you want to make a conduct dispute, try WP:ANI and if they won't respond at Eric Carmen, try a RFC after satisfying the requirements in the footnote of the RFC page. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 01:13, 12 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f ^g ^h ⁱ ^j ^k ^l ^m ⁿ ^o ^p ^q ^r ^s ^t ^u ^v ^w ^x ^y ^z ^aa ^ab ^ac ^ad ^ae ^af ^ag ^ah ^ai ^aj ^ak ^al ^am ^an ^ao "The Zeitgeist Movement: Envisioning A Sustainable Future". Huffington Post. Mar 16, 2010. {{cite web}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f ^g ^h ⁱ ^j ^k ^l ^m ⁿ ^o ^p ^q ^r ^s ^t ^u ^v ^w ^x ^y ^z ^aa ^ab ^ac ^ad ^ae ^af ^ag ^ah "Resource Based Economy". The Venus Project.
^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f ^g ^h ⁱ ^j ^k ^l ^m ⁿ ^o ^p ^q ^r ^s ^t ^u ^v ^w ^x A dream worth having, Rhonda Swan, The Palm Beach Post, April 30, 2009
^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f ^g ^h ⁱ ^j ^k ^l ^m ⁿ ^o ^p ^q "They've Seen the Future and Dislike the Present". New York Times. 2009-03-16.
^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f ^g ^h ⁱ ^j ^k Quotations and citations in this Wikipedia article are based on the translation from Hebrew to English of The Filmmaker Who Helped Recruit Millions for the Global Protests of the Bottom 99%, original Hebrew article by Asher Schechter, TheMarker (Israel), January 19, 2012.
^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f ^g ^h ⁱ ^j ^k ^l ^m ⁿ ^o ^p Quotations and citations in this Wikipedia article are based on the translation from Hebrew to English of Imagine, original Hebrew article by Tzaela Kotler, Globes (Israel), March 18, 2010.
^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f ^g ^h ⁱ ^j "He's A Dreamer From Venus", Mike Thomas, Orlando Sentinel, Feb. 12, 1995. Cite error: The named reference "OrlandoSentinel1995" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).
^ ^a ^b ^c Cite error: The named reference TVP-R was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ Ratzinger, Joseph. "Letter on Vassula Ryden to the Episcopal Conferences of France, Switzerland, Uruguay, Philippines and Canada (10 July 2004)".
^ http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/57732/brave-new-world Retrieval June-9-2012
^ http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/57732/brave-new-world Retrieval June-9-2012
^ http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/57732/brave-new-world Retrieved June 9, 2012

[huffpost-1] ^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f ^g ^h ⁱ ^j ^k ^l ^m ⁿ ^o ^p ^q ^r ^s ^t ^u ^v ^w ^x ^y ^z ^aa ^ab ^ac ^ad ^ae ^af ^ag ^ah ^ai ^aj ^ak ^al ^am ^an ^ao "The Zeitgeist Movement: Envisioning A Sustainable Future". Huffington Post. Mar 16, 2010. {{cite web}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)

[TVP-RBE-2] ^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f ^g ^h ⁱ ^j ^k ^l ^m ⁿ ^o ^p ^q ^r ^s ^t ^u ^v ^w ^x ^y ^z ^aa ^ab ^ac ^ad ^ae ^af ^ag ^ah "Resource Based Economy". The Venus Project.

[PalmBeachPost-3] ^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f ^g ^h ⁱ ^j ^k ^l ^m ⁿ ^o ^p ^q ^r ^s ^t ^u ^v ^w ^x A dream worth having, Rhonda Swan, The Palm Beach Post, April 30, 2009

[nytimes-4] ^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f ^g ^h ⁱ ^j ^k ^l ^m ⁿ ^o ^p ^q "They've Seen the Future and Dislike the Present". New York Times. 2009-03-16.

[TheMarker20120119-5] ^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f ^g ^h ⁱ ^j ^k Quotations and citations in this Wikipedia article are based on the translation from Hebrew to English of The Filmmaker Who Helped Recruit Millions for the Global Protests of the Bottom 99%, original Hebrew article by Asher Schechter, TheMarker (Israel), January 19, 2012.

[Globes20100318-6] ^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f ^g ^h ⁱ ^j ^k ^l ^m ⁿ ^o ^p Quotations and citations in this Wikipedia article are based on the translation from Hebrew to English of Imagine, original Hebrew article by Tzaela Kotler, Globes (Israel), March 18, 2010.

[OrlandoSentinel1995-7] ^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f ^g ^h ⁱ ^j "He's A Dreamer From Venus", Mike Thomas, Orlando Sentinel, Feb. 12, 1995. Cite error: The named reference "OrlandoSentinel1995" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).

[TVP-R-8] Cite error: The named reference TVP-R was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[Clarification-9] Ratzinger, Joseph. "Letter on Vassula Ryden to the Episcopal Conferences of France, Switzerland, Uruguay, Philippines and Canada (10 July 2004)".

[10] ttp://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/57732/brave-new-world Retrieval June-9-2012

[11] ttp://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/57732/brave-new-world Retrieval June-9-2012

[12] ttp://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/57732/brave-new-world Retrieved June 9, 2012

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@@ Line 1,988: / Line 1,988: @@
 ::Your explanation above about DNA molecules and X-rays is a prime example of the wrong thinking you have fallen into. It violates [[WP:OR]] (specifically [[WP:SYNTH]]) and [[WP:V]], (also see [[Wikipedia:Attribution#No original research]])) and so cannot be used. Again, look at what you want to insert into Wikipedia and at the references you are citing, then look at what is already on Wikipedia and the references supporting that. Surely you are capable of seeing and understanding the difference between the two. What conclusion do you draw from them being so radically different? --[[User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon|talk]]) 01:50, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
+:::But I stated: "Experiments showed that ionizing radiation cause DNA double strand breaks at a rate of 35 double strand breaks per cell per Gray", clearly the primary source state exactly that. Is that primary source unreliable? Is it controversial? Is there an other problem? Can it be fixed?
 ==War of the Pacific==

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