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→Keeping the criticism and controversies page together: frontpage magazine article on San Francisco
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Since the CCP is a totalitarian regime that used to ignore its people and blocks information, reversal of the burden of proof becomes absolutely necessary in order to uphold justice.
Since the CCP is a totalitarian regime that used to ignore its people and blocks information, reversal of the burden of proof becomes absolutely necessary in order to uphold justice.

What a idiot. I don't see Chinese people worshipping giant portraits of Hu Jintao, or pray to him everyday. Your sayings are moot, especially from someone who never set foot in China.--[[User:PatCheng|PatCheng]] 02:27, 4 May 2006 (UTC)


* Outside a legal context, "burden of proof" means that someone suggesting a new theory or stating a claim must provide evidence to support it: it is not sufficient to say "you can't disprove this". Specifically, when anyone is making a bold claim, it is not someone else's responsibility to disprove the claim, but is rather the person's responsibility who is making the bold claim to prove it.
* Outside a legal context, "burden of proof" means that someone suggesting a new theory or stating a claim must provide evidence to support it: it is not sufficient to say "you can't disprove this". Specifically, when anyone is making a bold claim, it is not someone else's responsibility to disprove the claim, but is rather the person's responsibility who is making the bold claim to prove it.

Revision as of 02:27, 4 May 2006

WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A FALUN GONG DISCUSSION FORUM! Please, add new messages pertaining to editing the FLG article at the bottom of this page

It is suggested that new readers of this "talk page" read the archived discussions below. It is likely that an issue of concern has already been discussed. As a result, a would-be poster can save the Wikipedian community time and effort spent on otherwise rehashing an issue if this responsbility is undertaken. Please remember that this isn't the place to vent our spleens in condemnation or gush praise for Falun Gong itself as much as it is to comment on the actual article content. We don't want a puff piece for Falun Gong or Li Hongzhi, neither do we want to demonise them. If we have an objectively neutral, factual article one hopes the truth will speak for itself, however we may subjectively perceive it. Archived discussion:

Starting Over, take two

  • 1. I applaud whoever froze this page. It was the right thing to do.
  • 2. Over the weekend, there were a series of incremental edits done by FG practitioners and others which had the effect of massively re-writing and re-organizing the article. Dilip was part of that effort, but others were as well.
  • 3. In response to this major attack, I gathered together all the "critical sections" on the FG as quickly as I could because I could see that through clever systematic editing they would all be gone or obscured by new writing here and there. I also asked for mediation.
  • 4. I agree with Dilip that the "Awards and Recognitions" section was deleted, but it was not deleted by either me or Samuel. In order to have a basis for an organizational discussion, I ask everyone to check out the version of the article as of Fire Star's 6:12 25 April edit:
  • [1]
  • You'll see that at that point the Critics and controversial teachings section had 7 sub categories, the last one of which was Questionable significance of Falun Gong awards & recognitions. You will notice that Fire Star had put in a link in the Awards and recognitions section to the corresponding Critics and controversial teachings section.
  • 5. In my opinion, the only way we are going to resolve some of these contentious issues is to adopt an approach similar to the splitting of sections on the issue of FG awards and recognitions.
  • 6. As an over-all strategy, I propose that we first try to reach some agreement on structure, by which I mean what sections and sub-sections we will have. Once we've reached agreement, we should all be bound by that structure. In other words, no arbitrary deletion of any sections or major re-arrangements without extensive discussion on these pages.
  • 7. Once we've agreed to an over-all structure (and again I propose that we consider splitting the article) some high level administrator should be prepared to step in again and freeze the article, as was just done.
  • What say the rest of you?

--Tomananda 20:21, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment It all sounds so complicated, Tomananda! I feel I need to take a breather and do some meditative exercise; but the existing schools and systems are all so alien, so outré! :D Etaonsh 21:02, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I agree that the editing the last few days was crazy. There were more people chiming in than just the regulars, and they were making seemingly random reversions and edits that muddied the already turbulent waters, which is why I requested the protection. We can propose an outline here and discuss towards a consensus of what we want in the main article and the spinoffs. If we can find neutral enough language for the facts in unequivocal public prominence, then I think we can get a good, intellectually interesting article out of this, neither puff-piece advertising or condemnatory. We just want people to know more about FLG, whether that makes them sign up for it or avoid it is up to them. --Fire Star 21:07, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Support Pretty much exactly what I was thinking. CovenantD 21:08, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • I agree with Fire Star. What about we request a fair policeman here to watch every change. For me, I don't even know who is to ask to freeze the page. I applaud the page is protected now. So, next, should we discuss section by section? For example, I have a question. Why the image of the self-immolation is deleted? It was originally provided by Chinese news agency Xinhua, not FLG, ok? (but later on I heard the Xinhua edited that part). You know they are often careless or lazy to research the teachings when they slander FLG. :) Last time, one graduate student of Chongqing univresity was raped [2], the school denied she is a student and deleted her major from the online catalog on their website, but they forgot deleting the Word version. They don't know there is a webarchive.org. Sigh! I think we may need really smart people here to tell what is true and what is false. Thanks! Fnhddzs 21:44, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
We have to be the fair policemen here. People who can forgo our own biases to forge a consensus. If we do get an outside mediator (which is a possibility) we will add weeks to the process. I'd like to ask people to sign on who are willing to agree to disagree and just argue technical points of the prose in the article, put a pound sign # before your name and it will number you like this:
  1. --Fire Star 21:57, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Fnhddzs, we should agree on a structure for the article before we start talking about individual sections or photos. Before that, we have to get people to agree to how we're going to discuss it. CovenantD 22:08, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding NPOV

There is a bias towards Falun Gong which has developed naturally in the article as a result of the fact that most people interested in the subject are involved in it - but this is not NPOV. It isn't sufficient to know FLG philosophy, and the fact that the CCP thinks it's evil - the reader needs to know why it comes to that conclusion. Yes, I know, a child could work it out, once knowing of the basic egalitarian philosophy of Communism, and having gleaned the ways in which FLG seems to go against that from the Talk page. But it needs to be explained up front. Whole Western parliaments have been deceived by over-simplifications regarding this movement, which would not be any more legal in those countries, in view of its swaggering breach of apolitical limitations, than it is in China. The vast dimensions of the problem, the worldwide problem of the inability of law enforcement agencies to contain law-breakers, and China's residual Third World backwardness arguably need mention here. None of which is to condone illegal acts by government against individuals involved. Etaonsh 21:54, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

We can report the reasons for persecution that others have promulgated, but we can't come to any conclusions ourselves, because of no original research. The communists also suppress other religious organisations, too, so perhaps there is some documentation about that to compare with FLG? --Fire Star 22:00, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes indeed - but unlike generations of biased reporters, perhaps we need to draw attention also to the distinction between religious organisation which meets with government approval, and that which doesn't, while not forgetting that such a distinction is ubiquitous, even here in the West. Etaonsh 22:07, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • I agree most of your part. If you ask why CCP banned Falun Gong, an article on The Epoch Times seems to answer some (On the Collusion of Jiang Zemin and the Chinese Communist Party to Persecute Falun Gong). But, IMHO, can I ask you why Hitler killed Jewish people? Why Christians were killed by Romans in earlier times (sorry my memory could be wrong on this, correct me for the details)? We should not let such whys put more bias in our mind. Fnhddzs 22:08, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Bias is to allow the act of killing/persecution to obscure the rights and wrongs of the matter. Good ideologies/religions commit bad acts; bad people also get persecuted. Etaonsh 22:08, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I understand what you mean, Etaonsh. That is why I propose a section covering "benefits claimed from practitioners" to see why practitioners think it is good. We can not support anything just because it is persecuted, right? Only good things cannot be persecuted. (Hi, can I write in your board? If not, I can move to a new section.)Fnhddzs 22:42, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I rethink about this. Who you mean by "bad people"? Who you mean by "good people"? I think normal people should not be persecuted. Even criminals have human rights. Fnhddzs 02:46, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hitler killed Jews because he truly believed in a master race and used the American eugenics movement (the idea of preventing so-called degenerates from reproducing) as a basis. The teachings of Li Hongzhi are very much in the tradition of the eugenics movement. I'm not saying he is a Nazi because of that, but some of the thinking about race, homosexuality, etc. is practically identical. --Tomananda 22:17, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Indeed. In links from Fnhddzs and search engines it becomes apparent that British and American legislatures have seemingly voted in favour of Falun Gong and against the CCP in this conflict. Not only is this important and relevant information, but it also seems vital to research into their actual debates prior to voting to ascertain their level(s) of awareness of the facts you state above. Etaonsh 22:17, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi, Etaonsh. You deleted my replies on this question to muffle the discussion. Now you raised it again. You are rude. I will repost my replies back. Fnhddzs 22:46, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi, Fnhddzs. I didn't delete anything. False accusations are pernicious. Etaonsh 22:58, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • YOu are a liar. You deleted my stuff regarding the interracial children in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive7#Replies_from_Fnhddzs

and I had to repost to my section. Now I repost part of them here to refresh. Alright. repost my replies to Tomananda here since Etaonsh deleted my post in 'his' section. :) Fnhddzs Tomananda. You cannot say something like this. Did Master Li kill anybody as Hitler does? He does not have bias on anybody. He may just point out something that may really be true in a probably higher standard. In a higher standard, all humans have sins according to Jesus. But does that mean Jesus have hatred on humans? .... Fnhddzs 22:49, 25 April 2006 (UTC) We can check the history also. Fnhddzs 02:46, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A FALUN GONG DISCUSSION FORUM! Please, add new messages pertaining to editing the FLG article in the appropriate place.

So you want it on the bottom again? Sorry honey, I just can't do that, you mean more than that to me. Etaonsh 23:20, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed Outline of Sections

Let's start with this outline from 6:12 25 April as a base:[4]

  • 1. Origins
  • 2. Financial and business aspects of FG
  • 3. Theoretical background
  • 4. Teachings of Falun Dafa
  • Culivation of Truthfullness, Compassion & Endurance
  • Qi Gong and Gong
  • 5.Cultivation of mind and body
  • Thoery of disease
  • Attitude toward mainstream healthcare
  • Research into health claims
  • 6. Awards and recognitions
  • 7. Critics and controversial teachings
  • Difference between Falun Gong and Qi gong
  • Li as savior or supernatural entity
  • Demons
  • Enlightenment
  • Falun Gong and sexual orientation
  • Claims about averting catastrophes and preventing the explosion of the universe
  • Questionable significance of Falun Gong awards and recognitions
  • 8. Ethics
  • 9. Chinese government crackdown
  • The media war
  • The Tiananment Square self-immolation incident
  • Allegations of organ harvesting
  • 10. Foreign views on Falun Gong
  • Is Falun Gong a cult?
  • Falun Gong presence overseas
  • Protests against President Hu U.S. visit
  • 11. Reference
  • 12 External links
  • Falun Gong sites
  • Critical sites
  • Other sites

Here’s one suggestion on splitting the article with 2 new pages separate from the home page:

  • New Page #1: Category 7 above “Critics and controversial teachings”
  • New Page #2 Category 9 and 10 above, combined into one page.

The advantage of this approach is that moves to separate pages material which is most apt to grow over time. And as new information comes in, there will be the most controversy for editing within those topics. What remains in complete form on the home page would be the stuff which (although still controversial) might wind up being the most stable. Hence when/if there is another revert war, it would be contained in one section.

Also, I don’t mind moving some of the sub-sections into different chapter headings. For example I would be ok with moving “Demons” to Category 5 and “Awards and recognitions” to category 10. --71.198.77.89 21:38, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Can you reformat the outline? It's showing up as a block of text which makes it difficult (for me at least) to follow. CovenantD 21:42, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
So much better. Thank you. I suggest we start simpler than that.

What should come first?

  • I agree with CovenantD. If we want to let people know what it is, it is a good idea to let itself talk about itself, even briefly. People could look up another article [5] for details. Origins is ok to me too.
Comment If Demons moved to Category 5, it sounds a part of cultivation instead of in critics? I am confused on this.
I agree with 71.198.77.89 to split new pages for the time-growing things such as Category 9 and 10. But before actions, I think we may wait other editors about at least hours (due to time difference) to finalize. Thanks. Fnhddzs 22:32, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
My goal is to allow at least a day for voting and comments, maybe longer if it looks like one day isn't long enough. CovenantD 23:08, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
At least a day is needed, but we need to discuss more than just the first item. And we also need to be sure to hear from 3 editors who have been working on this article for a long time: Fire Star, Olaf and Miborovsky. Concerning my suggestion on moving Demons, I said that only because Dilip has added so much Falun Gong context to that section that it no longer seems to belong in the Critical section. Actually, Dilip did more than that...he deleted my modest two or three sentences (inluding a Li quote) all together. I reinstated my copy as the first paragraph, however. But it's clear we have been working at cross purposes. The practitioners want this article to read like a Falun Gong instruction manual rather than an encylopedia article--Tomananda 23:57, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It was I who rewrote the section. The section is called "demons", yet what was written didn't explain Falun Gong's concept of demons at all. Your quote was too heavily weighted and no context of how this fits into Falun Gong's concept of demons was given. No explanation why was given. It was clear that rather than trying to provide a summary of Falun Gong's concept of demons you were trying to present one phenomenon in a way that might make the reader think negatively of Falun Gong. I rewrote the section to accurately represent Falun Gong's teachings on demons. Your quote is not central to Falun Gong's belief of demons. We can't just put things into this article just because we think they are interesting or because they may influence others to share our opinion. Mcconn 05:00, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
However long it takes :) My apprehension in doing more than one or two things at a time is that it will get bogged down and so confusing that we can't be sure who agreed to what. 'But', in the spirit of working towards a goal, I'm fine with Demons being in both Teachings and Critics, allowing both sides to present SHORT synopes (sp?). If they get too large, they get spun off into their own articles. CovenantD 00:20, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Agree! We should wait long enough. I found your comments in the first paragraph, Tomananda, "Li Hongzhi, in his books and lectures, claims that his methods are superior to those of any other qigong school." Is it? I need citation. Here is a Falun Gong book website which writes "It differs fundamentally from all other practices and has eight major distinguishing characteristics." [6] But your comments seems a bit different from that to me. Maybe now it is not time to discuss details. But since you talked first. Fnhddzs 00:24, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, it was Fire Star, and he/she (I try not to assume) is looking up suitable references. One is needed for the Falun Gong teachings article, too. CovenantD 00:31, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]


A simpler outline here:

  • 1. Origins
  • 2. Falun Gong teachings
  • 2.1 Falun Dafa
  • 2.2 Falun Gong exercises
  • 2.3 Cultivation practice
  • 3. Controversial Teachings of Falun Gong
  • 3.1 Falun Gong and healing
  • 3.2 Li as a savior or supernatural entity
  • 3.3 Claims to historical influence
  • 3.4 Questionable significance of Falun Gong awards and recognitions
  • 3.5 Ethics
  • 3.6 Falun Gong and sexual orientation
  • 3.7 Difference between Falun Gong and Qi Gong
  • 4. Faun Gong Organization
  • 4.1 Financial and business aspects of the Falun Gong
  • 5. Government crackdown
  • 5.1 The Tiananmen Square self-immolation incident
  • 6. Falun Gong and US—China relations
  • 6.1 Allegations of organ harvesting
  • 6.2 April 2006 state visit protests
  • 7. Foreign views on Falun Gong
  • 7.1 Is Falun Gong a cult?
  • 7.2 Falun Gong presence overseas
  • 8. References
  • 9. External links
  • 9.1 Falun Gong sites
  • 9.2 Critical sites
  • 9.3 Other sites

More topics can be added to section 4 and 5. Also, instead of pictures, links should be used, people complainded about the excess use of Falun Gong pictures. What do you guys and ladies think? --Samuel Luo 00:42, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose Don't get me wrong - I love the basic numbering, but I can't support something that has the subcatagories yet. My reason is that we need to decide what's going to be large enough to have it's own article with just a link and a summary here. I think Teachings and Controversial will both fit into that classification and if we approve the subcatagories too soon we'll end up with the same huge unwieldy thing that existed before. So how about this one?

A simpler, 'simpler' outline here:

  • 1. Origins
  • 2. Falun Gong teachings
    Main article: Falun Gong teachings
    summary
  • 3. Controversial teachings of Falun Gong
    Main article: Controversial teachings of Falun Gong
    summary
  • 4. Faun Gong Organization
  • 5. Chinese Government crackdown
    Main article: Chinese Government crackdown of Falun Gong
    summary
  • 6. Falun Gong and US—China relations
  • 7. Foreign views on Falun Gong
  • 8. References
  • 9. External links
  • 9.1 Falun Gong sites
  • 9.2 Critical sites
  • 9.3 Other sites

We can decide subsections later, cause I think it's going to be it's own debate -um, discussion :) If others think that links and summaries are appropriate for other sections, I'll agree to that too. CovenantD 02:02, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Hmm, I think a title as Falun Gong presence overseas is better than category 6. This is English wikipedia, not a U.S. version. Who cares about US-sino relation here. Also category 7 could be combined with Falun Gong presence overseas somehow. I have no clear idea yet.
  • a few images could be inserted. for example the little girl and the self-immolation. The self-immolation is orgined by Xinhua agency. It is factual, neutral. Never the suicide image which contradicts to Falun Gong teachings. The mistakes made by somebody ignoring Falun Gong teachings while slandering it should NOT be made here.
  • The article is in a bad shape. We should not wait too long and let it be there too long. Fnhddzs 02:57, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the "Controversial teachings of Falun Gong" should be a separate page, so is the crackdown of the Falun Gong. Firestar, can you create the "Controversial teachings of Falun Gong" page now? --Samuel Luo 03:55, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the page in question should be titled "Critics and Controversial Teachings" or "Criticism and Controversial Teachings." But overall, I'm happy with the broad outline of major categories presented above. I also agree with Covenant's proposed break-out pages:

  • Falun Gong Teachings (and practices?)
  • Criticism and Controversial Teachings
  • Chinese government crackdown

With the title changes I am proposing for these three big topics, I think we would have a wealth of material for each, thereby justifying splitting these three topics to other pages.--Tomananda 04:25, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Forgot to mention that I agree something could be done with category #6 and #7. I really like "Falun Gong and US - China relations" as a separate topic, but I am not sure it needs to be a separate section. Here's a proposal for a combined section:

6. Falun Gong and international issues:

  • Foreign views on Falun Gong
  • Falun Gong and US-China relations
  • Falun Gong's political agenda

--Tomananda 04:36, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just some first impressions: 1. I oppose the title "Falun Gong organisation", because it's misleading. Falun Gong is more like a network of voluntary practitioners. Practitioners are not members of an organisation, nor do they take orders from superior officials. 2. Falun Gong's "political agenda" is also an exaggeration and definitely not a NPOV: the only thing we've wanted is basic human rights for the Chinese people and acknowledgement of CCP's crimes. Cultivators do not seek political power. 3. Another issue is that this rearrangement was supposed to clarify the most important teachings of Falun Gong; naming the third chapter "Controversial teachings of Falun Gong" sounds like a bad idea. 4. Where did the chapter "Theoretical background" go? It was really good. 5. Allegations of organ harvesting doesn't belong under China-U.S. relations 6. "Questionable significance of Falun Gong awards and recognitions" as a subtitle is not a neutral wording. ---Olaf Stephanos 10:40, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A simpler outline here:

  • 1. Origins
  • 2. Falun Gong teachings
  • 2.1 Falun Dafa
  • 2.2 Falun Gong exercises
  • 2.3 Cultivation practice
  • 3. Controversial Teachings of Falun Gong
  • 3.1 Falun Gong and healing
  • 3.2 Li as a savior or supernatural entity
  • 3.3 Claims to historical influence
  • 3.4 Questionable significance of Falun Gong awards and recognitions
  • 3.5 Ethics
  • 3.6 Falun Gong and sexual orientation
  • 3.7 Difference between Falun Gong and Qi Gong
  • 4. Faun Gong Organization
  • 4.1 Financial and business aspects of the Falun Gong
  • 5. Government crackdown
  • 5.1 The Tiananmen Square self-immolation incident
  • 6. Falun Gong and US—China relations
  • 6.1 Allegations of organ harvesting
  • 6.2 April 2006 state visit protests
  • 7. Foreign views on Falun Gong
  • 7.1 Is Falun Gong a cult?
  • 7.2 Falun Gong presence overseas
  • 8. References
  • 9. External links
  • 9.1 Falun Gong sites
  • 9.2 Critical sites
  • 9.3 Other sites

More topics can be added to section 4 and 5. Also, instead of pictures, links should be used, people complainded about the excess use of Falun Gong pictures. What do you guys and ladies think? --Samuel Luo 00:42, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose Don't get me wrong - I love the basic numbering, but I can't support something that has the subcatagories yet. My reason is that we need to decide what's going to be large enough to have it's own article with just a link and a summary here. I think Teachings and Controversial will both fit into that classification and if we approve the subcatagories too soon we'll end up with the same huge unwieldy thing that existed before. So how about this one?

A simpler, 'simpler' outline here:

  • 9.1 Falun Gong sites
  • 9.2 Critical sites
  • 9.3 Other sites

We can decide subsections later, cause I think it's going to be it's own debate -um, discussion :) If others think that links and summaries are appropriate for other sections, I'll agree to that too. CovenantD 02:02, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Hmm, I think a title as Falun Gong presence overseas is better than category 6. This is English wikipedia, not a U.S. version. Who cares about US-sino relation here. Also category 7 could be combined with Falun Gong presence overseas somehow. I have no clear idea yet.
  • a few images could be inserted. for example the little girl and the self-immolation. The self-immolation is orgined by Xinhua agency. It is factual, neutral. Never the suicide image which contradicts to Falun Gong teachings. The mistakes made by somebody ignoring Falun Gong teachings while slandering it should NOT be made here.
  • The article is in a bad shape. We should not wait too long and let it be there too long. Fnhddzs 02:57, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the "Controversial teachings of Falun Gong" should be a separate page, so is the crackdown of the Falun Gong. Firestar, can you create the "Controversial teachings of Falun Gong" page now? --Samuel Luo 03:55, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the page in question should be titled "Critics and Controversial Teachings" or "Criticism and Controversial Teachings." But overall, I'm happy with the broad outline of major categories presented above. I also agree with Covenant's proposed break-out pages:

  • Falun Gong Teachings (and practices?)
  • Criticism and Controversial Teachings
  • Chinese government crackdown

With the title changes I am proposing for these three big topics, I think we would have a wealth of material for each, thereby justifying splitting these three topics to other pages.--Tomananda 04:25, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Forgot to mention that I agree something could be done with category #6 and #7. I really like "Falun Gong and US - China relations" as a separate topic, but I am not sure it needs to be a separate section. Here's a proposal for a combined section:

6. Falun Gong and international issues:

  • Foreign views on Falun Gong
  • Falun Gong and US-China relations
  • Falun Gong's political agenda

--Tomananda 04:36, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Tomananda, I'm gonna go with Controversies about Teachings of Falun Gong, just to keep it focused. I've made the change to my proposed outline above. I think If we throw the word Critics or Criticism in then that might open it up to any form of criticism. The International title still needs some work, also to keep it focused, but I don't have any ideas yet. CovenantD 04:53, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How about a page call "controversy and criticism" many topics can fit into this heading. --Samuel Luo 05:13, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. We cannot limit the break-out page to just teachings. The topic "Controversy and criticism" is already used elsewhere in Wikipedia. See for example the Scientology site: [7] --71.198.77.89 05:17, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with CovenantD. I think it's a better title, it will contain the same information, yet will be less inviting to senseless criticism. Tomanda, I don't think your proposed #6 is necessary. Falun Gong doesn't have a political agenda, that's your own POV. Maybe your referring to Falun Gong's reaction to the persecution, but this is already contained within Chinese Government Crackdown I believe. I think the proposed outline, as of my post, is good. However, where do awards and recognition go in this? Isn't it sort of the converse of Controversies about Teaching of Falun Gong? If so, then it should be given equal weight on the page, i.e. its own section. If this is agreed then I suggest its place be after or before Falun Gong organization. Also, I suggest using the word persecution rather than crackdown in "Chinese government crackdown". The term "crackdown" refers to the beginning, which was the start of the "persecution". If we are going to talk about the whole thing, referring to things from 1999 to present, then we should use the word "persecution". Mcconn 05:24, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Persecution is a rather loaded word. May I suggest "suppression" instead? -- Миборовский U|T|C|M|E|Chugoku Banzai! 06:17, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have mentioned that I 'disagree' the section of US-China relationship. Falun Gong is present over sixty countries. A lot of countries: Canada, Norway, Ireland helped to rescue Falun Gong practitioners in China. In my personal view, they seem to do better than U.S. A U.S. citizen Falun Gong practitioner Charles Li was in prison in China for three years.
  • I 'agree' that we should have an equal-weight page for awards and recognition as for critics and controversaries. Thinking about those many Falun Gong practitioners in China who would rather risk their lives than give up Falun Gong. There is enough reason that Falun Gong is worth doing. There is plenty to write in that article. If agree, who could start that article?
  • It is not exaggerating to use the word persecution considering the seven years, unspeakable terror. Even Genocide is not exaggerating. In China, people got prize if you report somebody practicing Falun Gong to the police. Police got promoted if they convert a practitioner to give up, no matter what means they use. Not to mention the organs were cut and sold finally. Sigh. If somebody wish their bad deeds be beautified, just please do not do it. Now that it happened, please do not deny it. If we want to stand neutral, we have to face the reality.
  • I diagree the section of Falun Gong's political agenda. Falun Gong claimed it has no political agenda (I can find citation).
  • I propose to add back 'Falun Gong's presense overseas' instead of Category 6 and 7.

Fnhddzs 17:52, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Yes to the equal weight idea on the "Award and recognitions" and the critical section. And with that example, it's clear we have to have a broader page title than just "controversial teachings" as someone else pointed out above. It could be "Criticism and controversial teachings" or just "Contoversy and criticism" as is used in the Scientology article.--71.198.77.89 07:46, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    changed Fnhddzs 08:22, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
We don't need a seperate page for Awards and Recognition yet. At present this section isn't that long. If it becomes much longer than perhaps we can do a summary/seperate page. We also don't need to say "about Falun Gong". I don't think it's correct English and it's fine to just say "Awards and Recognition" Mcconn 08:39, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

--71.198.77.89 07:46, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Okay, everybody, I've read the comments left overnight and incorporated them into my Simpler, simpler outline at the top of this section. Check it out now.

I've given Awards and Recognitions it's own section with a Critics subheading. If it get too large, it can be spun off. I think that Awards and their associated Critics should be kept together, unlike Teachings and Controversies about teachings which are both large enough for their own articles. The goal is to keep the sections focused and balanced. I'm keeping the Falun Gong organisation for now. Not having leaders or membership is a form of organizing, just not a formal one. I've combined the two sections following Chinese Government crackdown into one called Falun Gong outside of China. For geographic reasons, I don't like the Overseas. You could get from China to France without going overseas so the word just isn't accurate. Given the scope, I think it too will need it's own breakaway article. Let me know what you think of it now. CovenantD 14:54, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Hi, guys. Thanks for your hard working. I agree most part of outline of CovenantD, except I propose Category 5 is changed to 'Falun Gong in China'. Considering China has both phases before the crackdown and after crackdown. Also this looks symmetric with Category 6. How do you think? Fnhddzs 17:52, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

71.106.174.113

Just so you people know, 71.106.174.113 (trace ip) got 24 hours from me for his grossly uncivil and thoroughly despicable behaviour. Not sure how much use it would be, but it's something. That was WAY over the line. I'm not about to dignify him with showdiff links, I think it'd be best if nobody sees it. Too bad I get get rid of edits completely, it's beyond my level. If you see anyone resembling him or having his edit patterns, notify me (or Fire Star, or any other admin) immediately. -- Миборовский U|T|C|M|E|Chugoku Banzai! 06:08, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oh to Samuel Luo, I reverted along with those edits one of yours which was in response to his/hers. Since nothing constructive was said in his/her original edits I think there is no loss. Apologies nevertheless. -- Миборовский U|T|C|M|E|Chugoku Banzai! 06:10, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Sockpuppet #1: 164.67.59.37 (trace ip). As I suspected, I'm now on the list albeit with a misspelt name. 24 hours. One was probably done at home (Verizon) and the other at work/school. -- Миборовский U|T|C|M|E|Chugoku Banzai! 23:50, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Some Suggestions

Hi Everybody, I agree with most of the changes. What about a seperate page on "The History and Origins of Falun Gong" ?

"Falun Gong Organization" is a title on something non-existant. I will talk about it as a practitioner. There is nothing more to Falun Gong that doing the exercises and cultivation of one's heart-nature ( xinxing) and doing the exercises. There isnt even any need to go to any practice site. I taught myself the exercises using videos on the wesbite and the books and I do the exercises early morning, and study the books. There is not even a practice- group where I live. I intent to point out that is all there is to Falun Gong practice.

The book Falun Gong States[8]:

"When propagating Dafa and teaching the exercises, no Falun Dafa disciple is allowed to collect a fee or accept any gifts. Anyone who violates this rule is no longer a Falun Dafa disciple."

"All local Falun Dafa Assistance Centers are civic organizations for genuine cultivation practice, are only for organizing and assisting cultivation activities, and are neither to be run as economic enterprises nor managed using the methods of administrative organizations. No money or possessions are to be kept. No activities are to be held for healing illnesses. Assistance Centers are to be managed in a loose manner"

"The assistants should cherish Falun Dafa, be enthusiastic to work for it, and be willing to serve others voluntarily. They should take initiative to organize exercise sessions for practitioners"

"The assistants should teach the exercises to others voluntarily. Collecting a fee or accepting gifts is forbidden. Practitioners should not seek fame or profit, but merit and virtue"

Dilip rajeev 14:50, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dilip, I appreciate your input and your enthusiasm for what you believe in. However, I disagree with you on this one. A decision to forego leaders and membership lists is a form or organization, albeit not a formal one. Even the quote you supplied uses the word organizing. That aspect needs to be covered to some extent. CovenantD 15:04, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly. I just had some concerns on the way the title is phrased in the present version. On second thought, taking into consideration what you've pointed out, I feel the section is necessary. Dilip rajeev 15:25, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Falun Gong teachings summary

Since I don't see any opposition to the 'link and summary' idea for this section, maybe somebody can start working on a summary and submit it here for discussion.

Some points to remember as you write this:

  • It need to be from a neutral point of view.
  • It should summarize the article on Falun Gong teachings, not reproduce it word for word. KEEP IT SHORT!!
  • Long blockquotes are inappropriate for a summary.
  • There wil be a separate article on Controversies about the teachings of Falun Gong so none of that need be in the summary on Teachings.

-- CovenantD 16:58, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good. I'll start working on a summary of the teachings right now. It's late where I am though, so if I don't finish it quickly, you may not see it for a few hours. Mcconn 17:08, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi, I have some suggestions. What is our goal of this article? I remember you said we want people to learn more Falun Gong. But I think we'd better put something like: "Welcome to our wikipedia Falun Gong article, written by volunters from the world. We hope that you will find this article helpful learning about Falun Gong. All of the content in this site – excepting the founder's writings – represents the ideas and opinions of editors and should not be taken as representative of Falun Dafa itself." I borrowed this sentence mostly from [9] I think it takes too much responsibility to give a definition or summary of Falun Gong to our limited knowledge. I feel better with this sentence as an umbrella. How you guys think? Fnhddzs 17:30, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
um, no. That disclaimer is part of Wikipedia already - it's not exclusive to this article at all. We start with that sort of thing here and it has to on all 1 million+ articles on Wikipedia. CovenantD 17:37, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Here is my summary of the teachings. I didn’t know how long or short to make it. I believe that this is quite concise and only touches upon the very fundamentals of the practice.

The foundation of Falun Dafa are teachings known in traditional Chinese culture as the "Fa" (Dharma), or "Dharma and principles" – that are set forth in the book Zhuan Falun. Falun Gong teaches that the "Buddha Law", in its highest manifestation, can be summarized in three words – Zhen 真, Shan 善 and Ren 忍, which translate approximately as 'Truthfulness (or Truth), Benevolence (or Compassion), and Forbearance (or Endurance)'. These are also believed to be the characteristics of the universe. Through adherence to these principles, Falun Dafa is practiced by improving one’s xinxing (heart nature) within daily life. Selfishness, fame, anger, jealousy, and all other mentalities at odds with the characteristics of the universe must be gradually relinquished while maintaining an ordinary life in society. In Falun Gong practice this is called cultivation. The process of cultivation is thought of to be one in which the practitioner assimilates himself or herself to Zhen 真, Shan 善 and Ren 忍. It is emphasized that only through repeated study and application of the teachings of Falun Gong can a person acquire a good understanding of their content.

Mcconn 18:12, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Have at it, guys and gals. Just so everybody knows, I'm going to stay out of the substance of the summary and only look at formatting, grammar, size (which looks really good), links and the like. CovenantD 18:17, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I slightly altered the statement on attachments. Mcconn 11:05, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Practitioners Cannot Dictate the Stucture

The above discussion about Awards and recognitions is between several practitioners and so its not surprising that you would conclude among yourselves that the "Questionable significance of Falun Gong awards and recognitions" section should be subsumed into the main page on Falun Gong rather than be part of a break-out page on Criticism and controversial teachings. This is not acceptable and will immediately provoke another revert war. If you look back at the revert war we just got through you'll see that Dilip or other practitioners continually deleted existing critical content from this very section and that's what will happen again.

If you expect the editors who are critical of Falun Gong to respect your editing whenever possibe you must respect ours. The Wikipedia policy is to assume good will. The organizational decisions we are now dealing with are meant to prevent future revert wars, not encourage them. Here's a revised, simplifed structure:

A simpler, 'simpler' outline here:

  • 1. Origins
  • 2. Falun Gong teachings

Main article: Falun Gong teachings

summary

  • 3. Critisism and controversial teachings of Falun Gong

Main article: Criticism and controversial teachings of Falun Gong summary

  • 4. Awards and Recognitions
  • link to Questionable significance of Falun Gong awards and recognitions
  • 5. Falun Gong Organization
  • 6. Chinese Government crackdown

Main article: Chinese Government crackdown of Falun Gong

summary

  • 7. Falun Gong outside of China

Main article: Falun Gong outside of China

summary

  • 8. References
  • 9. External links
  • 9.1 Falun Gong sites
  • 9.2 Critical sites
  • 9.3 Other sites

If the practitioners think the word "Criticism" is too harsh (I certainly don't) I will accept Controversial teachings and practices of Falun Gong as an alternative. Under no circumstances will I accept a watered-down "criticism" page which is restricted just to the teachings. That would totally undermine what we are trying to do here.

Also, I think we should (and can) all agree on one general principle which is this:

Whenever there is a Falun Gong topic on the main page with a corresponding topic in the critisism page (as with these two awards and recognition pages we are discussing) we will agree to cross-link those two sections within the body of each section. That way readers can easily go back and forth between two sections. In fact, Fire Star did exactly that before this article was frozen. Fire Star: what are your thoughts on this? --Tomananda 18:36, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, let's get one thing clear - I made my revisions based on what everybody wrote and a look at the amount of content.
Second, your assumption that everybody who commented is a practioner is false
Third, your assumption that anybody is dictating structure is false. These are discussions, with revisions continually being made based on input.
Now on to your points.
Awards does not have it's own article nor was it proposed to. From what I've seen, there's not enough content on awards and their questionability to merit two separate pages. Either they both get separate articles or neither should. If there's too much to fit into this article, then they can be spun off into a single article that covers both the awards themselves and the questionable nature of them. If that gets too big, then it can be split again. So, until such time as there's enough content to warrant it, I oppose Questionable nature of the Awards being split off unless it's with Awards or Awards gets its own article. I think creating Questionable as a subsection will avert most of the vandalism you fear, since it will provide a space for both side to present "their" facts.
I've already explained why I think Controversial Teachings needs to be limited to that. There's plenty of room for the critics, which you obviously are, to have their say in parallel sections or articles. CovenantD 18:57, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
On second thought, we might as well plan right now for Awards to get it's own breakaway page I've made the change to the simpler, 'simpler' outline here I'm tracking. Until I see enough content to justify two pages, I'm refer to it as one article named Falun Gong Awards and their questionable importance. Comments? Tomananda, I hope you are willing to see that I'm operating in good faith. CovenantD 19:19, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the title of Falun Gong Awards and their questionable importance. proposed by CovenantD. What about Falun Gong Awards, their questionable importance and benefits claimed from practitioners ? I feel there is a lot to write about benefits testified by practitioners. That's why they do not give up despite the high-strength oppression. I think this is also very interesting. We gave critics a room, why not give practitioners a room. I will welcome a better title. But I would like the new struture to have this. How do you think? Fnhddzs 21:27, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't really about the title so much as the concept that for some topics we will separate out the views of critics from the non-critical reporting of Falung Gong teachings and practices. Frankly, I think this approach benefits both the pro and con editors in a big way. Concerning your point about reporting postitive stuff, such as results of Falun Gong practice, I don't have a problem with that so long as the material is sourced. I am realy trying to reach some stability in the editing process here and from past experience I know that we must split out certain topics to avoid all out confrontation. This is a show-stopper for me.--Tomananda 22:27, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The new article for criticism

I hope that the revert war doesn't start again on the criticism page. Of course, it won't do if it falls into the hands of those who want to pour in whatever they want. For instance, the same policy for reputable sources will apply there - random text files from obscure sites will not be allowed, et cetera. It will not be turned into a Xinhua style exposé, either. Splitting the article will not work if people don't take earlier castigation seriously. Just a reminder. ---Olaf Stephanos 20:45, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Who could watch on the new page? We need to find a policeman before starting it. CovenantD or Tawker or Fire Star or some volunteer, would you join us on the new page? We need to find a person on duty. Just don't want to repeat the frustrating experience. I remember Fire Star said we have to be the policeman ourselves. Why not somebody volunteer or nominate, then we vote? Any ideas? Or anybody can notify an admin? We need to find one online (not offline) if the war starts. How to find? Thanks! Why wikipedia does not this function automatic? something like "automatic detection of vandalism" and then automatically roll back to the version before that. :) Fnhddzs 21:40, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Alternatively, we could ask for mediation. If we can't even agree on fairly straight-forward structural changes which are well established in other Wikipedia articles...such as splitting off an entire section on Controvery and criticism (or similar title) I don't feel very optimistic about the future prognosis for this article. We haven't heard from Fire Star or Mirobovsky on this issue yet.--Tomananda 22:30, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • The Faun Gong has many controversial teachings and practices and it has drawn criticisms from Chinese scholars as well as American cult experts. A page call “Criticism and controversial teachings and practices of Falun Gong” is warranted.

The Falun Gong is originated from China and no one knows more about the group and its founder than those who grew up and worked with Li before he became the world’s savior. Reports from China definitely should be included. There is no reason to assume that we and the visitors can be easily fooled by any lies from either the Chinese media or the Falun Gong. Olaf, if you delete them I will delete all contents from Falun Gong websites since these info are from neither reputable nor creditable sources.

Also since there are plenty of Falun Gong pictures on the Faun Gong teaching page, the “Criticism and controversial teachings and practices of Falun Gong” page should be reserve for pictures from critics.

I am looking forward to a new beginning and thankful for everyone involved. --Samuel Luo 22:40, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi,Tomananda I don't mean I am pessimistic on agreeing on structures. I am optimistic on that. I am just concerned about what happened before the page was frozen. Fnhddzs 22:49, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think #5 should be changed to sometthing more neutral, like Falun Gong and the Chinese government. Yeah, I'm editing myself. What think ye?
The Controversies about the teachings section can include critiques from anywhere - it's not location specific. Same with pretty much most of the Controversy or Questionable sections.
Pictures should be appropriate for the topic they accompany and should not be 'reserved'. As if that would work anyway :)
I want to point out something that may not have occurred to everybody yet. If we can come to agreement here in the talk, then unlock the page and put our text in place, then ANY change that happens after that violates consensus of the editors and is AUTOMATICALLY vandalism. I know I'm going to keep a copy of our final version ready to plop in whenever somebody makes changes. And I will be ruthless about it. No talk, no change. :) CovenantD 23:07, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Samuel. I appreciate that you communicate here and let us know your reason. I understand what you mean and your concerns. Yes, I agree reports from China are important, but we should include both sides (but obviously it is hard to voice from the oppressed part), ok? The truth does fear to be disputed. It will be clearer and clearer. We have to do the translation for them since this is an English website. However, we must be clear about the background of the allegations from the people you mentioned who grew up with Master Li or etc. First, they may testify falsely under the pressure of the government. Second, there are proofs of they are false. Please allow us to include all those articles that disapprove the allegations. For example, it was alleged that Master Li has a big house in China and was shown on TV (I don't mind he has one or not). However, it turns out somebody else (with the same name)'s house since there was a cigar despoit box (smoking has no benefit at all, clearly stated in Falun Gong.) on a table in the house. I think many practitioners are fully aware of all these allegations by the goverment. However, nothing was true according to my investigation :) (nobody want to be fooled:). That is another reason why many Falun Gong practitioners would not give up Falun Gong despite the persecution. Since they think it is something very nice and wonderful, at least to them. That is why I request a section covering "benefits claimed from practitioners". I understand we cannot support something just because it is persecuted.

Regarding to the suicide photo, I have repeated that it is to demonize Falun Gong. Since it is a sin to kill or suicide, stated clearly in Falun Gong teachings.

Samuel, why not we settle down the issues first before starting that article? Thanks! How other editors think? Fnhddzs 23:17, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, CovenantD. Thanks for your hard work. It seems you are always working here. I like your idea. how about a title like Falun Gong in China Fnhddzs

Besides relations with the government and Origins, which gets its own section, what else specifically about China do you think needs to be covered? CovenantD 23:28, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Additional commentary about the criticism page

If, for example, an editor would try to use the propagandistic suicide picture of a hanged man that somebody introduced earlier, we would not tolerate such material. Criticism from reputable sources is allowed, of course, but same standards should apply to each and every Wikipedia article. As I've said before, even if you found the most scandalous exposé you've ever encountered, it doesn't belong here if the source doesn't meet the Wikipedia standards. Anybody can publish his own rantings on a private website, but this is a high-quality encyclopedia. And even if the source is OK, we can only state that such-and-such source has claimed this-and-that, not present these allegations as facts unless they're confirmed. Something I've had to deal with repeatedly is that a lot of people confuse the alleged original sources with the actual source they're accessing themselves.

We must also remember that the Chinese government is involved in a genocide. Material for promoting and justifying these actions would not be allowed, especially if it's not confirmed by a third party or at least under investigation. I realize that this requirement is a rather obscure one, so we'll have the discuss it further. However, a lot of the Chinese material is no better than anti-semitic indoctrination in Nazi Germany: it is meant to incite hatred against a marginalized group of people whose voice has been suffocated by violent and lawless means. The U.S. concurrent resolution 188, unanimously passed by the Congress, states: "Propaganda from state-controlled media in the People's Republic of China has inundated the public in an attempt to breed hatred and discrimination", and that is something we'll certainly keep in mind. No doubt we'll add this statement onto the critics' page as a disclaimer. When these measures are observed, I have nothing against a page for Falun Gong criticism, and I hope we can co-operate in mutual respect and good faith. ---Olaf Stephanos 23:39, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No such disclaimer should be added. Sources published from the PRC is subject to the same standards as any. No more no less. That includes the US Congress, Falun Gong, and Epoch Times. What I'm seeing is a disturbing trend for pro-FLG editors to blanket criticism because "they are from communist sources". In the same vein, I can delete every single sentence that is taken from a Falun Gong source because it's Falun Gong propaganda. -- Миборовский U|T|C|M|E|Chugoku Banzai! 23:49, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Believe me when I say that if I could, I would. -- Миборовский U|T|C|M|E|Chugoku Banzai! 03:47, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The credibility of the source is what we are concerned about. Newspapers in China have claimed Falun Gong is run by the FBI ( Seriously ). Dilip rajeev 15:52, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The criticism article will be open for everybody's editions. I didn't mean that we would specifically underline the Congress resolution, but it definitely has its place on that page. One disturbing trend that I'm seeing is that of anti-FLG editors throwing in almost anything to further their cause. That's why we need to pay a lot of attention to this issue. As for myself, I have no specific agenda except to keep this article neutral while admitting my own subjective position openly. Of course, I'm bound to introduce new material from a practitioner's point of view, but I wouldn't approve of unsourced claims or questionable editions even if they showed Falun Gong in a positive light. For example, I added the criticism about the methodological bias of the 1998 health survey. But I've never seen a lot of people do anything but pour in whatever denouncements and critiques they could find, oftentimes garnishing them with a tint of sarcasm or questionable interpretations, and that's what I'm worried about: personal crusades don't fit into balanced and long-term teamwork. ---Olaf Stephanos 00:07, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
That doesn't really answer my concern. Anti-FLG editors are more than welcome to "throw in almost anything", as long as their additions are sourced, reliable and verifiable. So are pro-FLG editors. But right now from what I'm seeing some editors are treating this article as their own exclusive playground, arbitrarily dictating the value of certain sources and wishing to withhold editing rights from other. See this edit:

... Of course, not that many people make use of this talk page already so it's effectiveness is questionable. Could we limit edits to only those involved in the Project? It would be soooo useful to stop the hacks. :) CovenantD 23:42, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Disturbingly Unwikipedian, to say the least. -- Миборовский U|T|C|M|E|Chugoku Banzai! 00:21, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't get me wrong, Miborovsky. Your example is not to your point. I don't see CovenantD is either anti or pro. And the edit did not have serious problem. with :) mark why you take it so seriously. why you do not notice the much more serious edit problems. Fnhddzs 03:00, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This is not an edit problem. Edit conflicts are negotiable. Compromising the basic tenets of Wikipedia is not. -- Миборовский U|T|C|M|E|Chugoku Banzai! 03:47, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
New Wikipedians don't have to know everything about everything, but I hope you know that they're allowed to act in a slightly Unwikipedian manner.
The value of "certain sources" has not been arbitrarily dictated. It is clear that we do not accept stuff from private websites. If supporting information can be found from another (preferrably more reputable) source, or if we're reporting two sides of the story (an accusation and a rebuttal, for instance), we'll have to evaluate each case individually. ---Olaf Stephanos 00:54, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I do not, in fact. Give me an official policy where it says that new editors can choose not to adhere to basic Wikipedia policies. -- Миборовский U|T|C|M|E|Chugoku Banzai! 03:47, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You're so silly, Miborovsky. Making a slightly uninformed comment is not breaking Wikipedia policies. Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers. --Olaf Stephanos 04:15, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the defense, everyone. What I wrote was totally tongue-in-cheek frustration at the edit war; I know full well that's not the way Wikipedia works. Simply reading the rest of my posts should demonstrate that. I've been working damn hard to make sure everybody's input is heard. Moborovsky, chill. CovenantD 05:11, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No, now I'm more concerned with Olaf's belief that certain users are allowed to ignore certain official policies. In this case it's not even a policy, it's a fundamental aspect of Wikipedia. If CovenantD is merely joking, then please accept my apologies. Nevertheless, I think Olaf has to understand that no, new editors are not "allowed" to behave Unwikipedian-ly. They can make mistakes, and they should corrected, and they are expected not to make the same mistake again. -- Миборовский U|T|C|M|E|Chugoku Banzai! 05:22, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • hey, I am more concerned about you. Miborovsky. Olaf may not be perfect, neither anyone here. And we are willing to improve. But why you did not say anything to Samuel's obviously conclusive word and obviously Unwikipedian behaviour? Why you follow tightly with others and use some words like fundamental aspect of Wikipedia but leave someone at large? Do you use dual-standards to exercise your power? Please brighten up your eyes! Fnhddzs 06:02, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mibrovsky, Please appreciate the fact that CovenantD is the only editor who has managed to bring some order in this chaotic discussion. He has been more "wikipedianly" than any of us. Friend, I honestly cant see what you are blaming CovenantD for. Dilip rajeev 15:52, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mibrovsky, Friend, if you want to see examples for really "un-wikipedian" stuff please go through the edit history of the page.

Dilip rajeev 15:52, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]


  • The following statement is from America’s leading cult expert Dr. Margaret Singer. “I have no doubt that Falun Gong has many of the characteristics of a true cult, including utter obedience to a charismatic leader, coercive thought control, financial exploitation of its followers, a doomsday prediction that promises salvation only through total obedience and subservience to the cult leader, zero tolerance for dissent, and a very strict organization from which it is difficult to escape.” (source: Cults in Our Midst revised edition, page 352.) Olaf, feel free to post your disclaimer, the above statement will be posted as a disclaimer on the Falun Gong main page when yours is up. Also, there is no genocide of practitioner; claims (lies) of this sort have been used by the Falun Gong cult as a tool to gain sympathy and support but more importantly to silence critics.
  • I must point that, Falun Gong does not need to gain sympathy at such a cost! Genocide is genocide. Not a mean to gain sympathy. Falun Gong is a cultivation system for mind and body refinement, regardless whether there is genocide. But now that it happened, certainly we should stop persecution. Fnhddzs 06:40, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Cult expert or not, the above quote indicates that this person knows very little about Falun Gong. There is absolutely no financial exploitation or anything remotely like this in Falun Gong, not even donations are asked for. It's already been made clear that the organization is not strict at all, but instead, extremely loose, which is one of things that characterizes Falun Gong. And any one can come and go as they please. As for "obedience" to the Master, it's your choice if you want to follow his teachings or not, just as it is in other non-cult spiritual practices. Mr. Li does not predict any doomsday, or say that those who don't follow him will die or have bad futures. The whole quote is so wrong. Sometimes we as editors need to look not only at the source, but at it's information as well. If what the source implies is clearly false then we can't include it just because it's from a credible source. Also, there is a big difference between quoting a US congress statement concerning Chinese media and quoting one person's opinion about a spiritual movement. Mcconn 03:58, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The criticism article will be open for everybody's editions so is the Falun Gong teaching page and others. Olaf, you don’t call Falun Gong’s websites as private websites? What I see here is a plot that practitioners are inserting unsourced and unidentified information published on Falun Gong websites while attacking the creditability of other sources in order to take over the page. --Samuel Luo 01:01, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • One very important point: controlling information is a mind control (brainwashing) technique. In order for the mind to make decision information is needed; when one controls information that others receive one controls others' minds. (source: Steven Hassan, Releasing the Bonds, page 43.) Olaf, you are trying to control people’s mind.

--Samuel Luo 01:37, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously. I've heard that wearing a tinfoil hat could protect you from that, though. ---Olaf Stephanos 20:56, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Samuel, Try as you may, you cant cover truth with lies. All teachings of Falun Dafa are available for anyone to go through, on the Falun Dafa website. Dilip rajeev 15:52, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • I feel the same way of you, Samuel. I mean you are trying to control information. Everybody should bear in mind that in China, all TV and newspapers are controlled by the government. There is no freedom to say something true as long as it contradicts with the government's policy. Also please bear in mind, some media outside of China are afraid of China. For example, Ta Kung Pao (HK newspaper) was subsidized by CCP fifty years ago. Yahoo-Hong Kong helped to arrest the reporter Shi, Tao (not a practitioner) by disclosing his information to the police and he was sentenced to 10 years. [10] There is no freedom to express. In terms of treating Falun Gong, there is no exception. If we talk about reputable sources, we cannot naively find them from an environment without freedom of expression. But the contradition from the source itself (such as the self-immolation video) would be very convincing. Yes, lies cannot cover the truth, paper cannot wrap the fire! Fnhddzs 16:13, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Samuel, there IS genocide to practitioners [11]. Claims to its nonexistence will bear the same responsibility. If wikipedia is a serious place, you should take that responsibility. At least you cannot make conclusive remarks. Fnhddzs 03:06, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"There IS genocide" is a conclusive remark if I've ever seen one. Besides, verifiable, reliable sources, please? -- Миборовский U|T|C|M|E|Chugoku Banzai! 03:47, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, it is a case in court over several countries. Miborovsky, I agree I was just trying to voice mine. But why you do not point this to Samuel, only point at me? I am sorry I cannot compliment your fairness. Fnhddzs 04:04, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

trying to post citations. Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 2005 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 2004 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 2003 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 2002 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 2001 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 2000 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 1999

China-Amnesty International report 2005 China-Amnesty International report 2004 China-Amnesty International report 2003 China-Amnesty International report 2002 China-Amnesty International report 2001 China-Amnesty International report 2000 China-Amnesty International report 1999 We can compare before 99 and after. The 99 report have no Falun Gong since it reports year 1998. Here is the index for all AI reports [12] Fnhddzs 04:25, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nowhere in any of these articles is the word "genocide" mentioned. -- Миборовский U|T|C|M|E|Chugoku Banzai! 05:13, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I did not say they are citations for genocide. They are citations for persecution. Here is a newspaper mentioning that "As of December 2005, 61 lawsuits had been filed in about 30 countries charging Jiang and several other senior officials with genocide, torture, and crimes against humanity for their roles in the treatment of Falun Gong in mainland China."

The Reflector --- Organs for sale : China accused of killing Falun Gong members I know you may say it cannot prove the genocide, but you could not disapprove it, right? Or what is your base to disapprove it? I would be more than happy to believe you are neutral since we really wish people like you as an admin be neutral. Sometimes, I found, staying neutral to everything is impossible. Everyone believes something and have a rule in his/her heart whether s/he admits that. Let justice prevail. Fnhddzs 05:55, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I wish to say that the burden of proof lies on the accusor and not the accused. So the comment "I know you may say it cannot prove the genocide, but you could not disapprove it, right? Or what is your base to disapprove it?" does not hold any ground.

24.189.163.169 16:51, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Hey, you are right. but you forgot to say "there is no genocide" is an assumption in the western law system. That is my concern. assumption is not factual. What is wiki's policy in terms of assumption?Fnhddzs 17:54, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Whoa dude you are really trying to grasp on to something not there. "acussation of genocide has to be proven to say there is such a thing. You can't just say ok I say there is a purple elephant and you have to prove me wrong that there isn't one. Doesn't work like that. And assumptions are just that assumptions. no factual data to back it up so it's not fact. But you are saying There IS a genocide which means you are staying it's a fact. Fact has to be backed up by proof. and the burden of proof lies with the accusor. 24.189.163.169 18:04, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I did not say we have to say there is genocide. But I strongly oppose there is no genocide. I wish you can understand me. Please don't be so angry. Fnhddzs 18:23, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • calm down. What I am really concerned is you did not say anyting when somebody say "there is no genocide" but you keep biting when somebody say "yes". when I say "there IS" was to Samuel to express my personal view. Not to suggest we write it that way. Sorry for the confusion. Fnhddzs 18:26, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Samuel, there IS genocide to practitioners [13]. Claims to its nonexistence will bear the same responsibility. If wikipedia is a serious place, you should take that responsibility. At least you cannot make conclusive remarks. Fnhddzs 03:06, 27 April 2006 (UTC)" This is not a view point if you say there IS. You could have said I believe there is which points toward a more personalized view. And no I'm not angry. Just pointing out what's logical. 24.189.163.169 18:30, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks, sir. Fnhddzs 18:33, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I could also say there is not a view point if Samuel say there is no genocide, could I? Fnhddzs
  • Absolutely it's samual's view point that there isn't. But genocide of FLG practitioners is NOT a FACT. 24.189.163.169 18:44, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • NEITHER is no genocide of FLG practitioners a FACT. Fnhddzs 19:04, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • never did i say that there is no genocide a fact either but like I've said before. When you say a crime is committed, you have to provide the proof. Because you are stating that it's a FACT that it happened. If there is no proof, the general consensus is it did not happen. (That's what I meant by "The burden of proof lies with the accuser and not the accused.") 24.189.163.169 19:11, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I appreciate we have discussion on this logic issue. I think I agree part of what you mean. I did not mean to write the article that way (there IS). but I could not agree it did not happen. I just think we should put the same weight on the other side. It hurts to say either way based on our current knowledge. We just need to present both sides, or not to mention it. Anyway, there is an old Chinese saying. If you wish others not know what you do, just don't do it. Let justice prevail. As wikipedia editors, we may not care about this. If we care about facts, the wording should not lean. Fnhddzs 19:33, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thing is it can't be given equal weight. As I've said before I say there is purple elephants, can I give equal weight to there is purple elephant and no there isn't. I also can say I got raped by an alien, but I have no proof of it... can you say I really did get riped by aliens? no, you just put it in as an accusation and that's it. Now if you want to prove it... the people that said there is has to prove it. Or find something to say there is. Also ever heard of innocent until proven guity? All really simple laws. 24.189.163.169 19:38, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Anyway, there is an old Chinese saying. If you wish others not know what you do, just don't do it. Let justice prevail." That's an assumption that CCP did commit genocide which is not a FACT. So as stated before where's your proof. 24.189.163.169 19:54, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I did not make any conclusions in "Anyway, there is an old Chinese saying. If you wish others not know what you do, just don't do it. Let justice prevail." It is an ancient saying plus a sentence with no accusations. Are you sober?Fnhddzs 20:02, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • ok I sorry if I misread the intention of that proverb then. What was the proverb in reference to then? Just want to clarify. 24.189.163.169 23:05, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Um, have we agreed on a structure yet? CovenantD 05:11, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I was almost ok except Category 5 'Falun Gong in China' sounds a bit better to me, but I can compromise to a different version if reasonable. Did we hear from everyone? I guess we need to wait.Fnhddzs 06:36, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am re-posting the last outline. We've already discussed the criticism section and the split article on awards. It seems to have enough support at this point. As to "Falun Gong in China.." do you realy mean that for section 5? Overall, we should try to accept the idea that none of us are going to be totally happy with the content no matter what we do. My standard, which is borrowed from Fire Star, is that we should try not to edit at the expense of others. That means we add content rather than deleting it, providing the content meets Wikipedia standards. So if we can agree to this broad outline, then we can go on to assigning the sub-topics into the big categories.

A simpler, 'simpler' outline here:

  • 1. Origins
  • 2. Falun Gong teachings

Main article: Falun Gong teachings

summary

  • 3. Critisism and controversial teachings of Falun Gong

Main article: Criticism and controversial teachings of Falun Gong summary

  • 4. Awards and Recognitions
  • link to Questionable significance of Falun Gong awards and recognitions
  • 5. Falun Gong Organization
  • 6. Chinese Government crackdown

Main article: Chinese Government crackdown (or suppression?) of Falun Gong

summary

  • 7. Falun Gong outside of China

Main article: Falun Gong outside of China

  • 8. References
  • 9. External links
  • 9.1 Falun Gong sites
  • 9.2 Critical sites
  • 9.3 Other sites

--Tomananda 07:01, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Tomananda. I was looking at [14] and there was a typo in numbering. So what I mean is category 6 in your outline. But it is not an essential issue to me. Just think it seems symmetric with Category 7. I'd like to hear others. Fnhddzs 07:19, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mibharovsk, my motive for writing is clearly visible to you. I have a chip on my shoulder directed towards some of the editors of this page. You should already know why. There can be no logical Wikipedian policy that would disbar me from writing this. Are you going to block once again? All eyes on you! I am going to side with Fnhddzs. He/she knows what he/she is saying. Sounds like genocide it is! Give some compelling evidence otherwise?

As the only third party on the page, I think you should listen to Fhnddzs. He/she is obviously right.

Your argument makes no sense. Sounds like genocide so it is? In fact, as Miborovsky correctly points out, none of the many human rights, United Nations or United States reports you cited even mentioned the word genocide. Not one. The fact that someone may have died or even been tortured by a corrupt guard while under detention does not consititute genocide. The claims of genocide appear to be used by the Falun Gong to create a special protected status for itself.--Tomananda 08:37, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have a outline for the structure of the page, but before that I need to respond to Fnhddzs regarding the genocide accusation first. In the court of law anyone is presumed innocent until he/she is found guilty by the court. The reason being anyone can sue anyone else in the court; filing a lawsuit against someone really does not mean that the defendant is guilty. Whenever accusing someone of committing a crime as serious as genocide, you better have good evidences, that is why Миборовский demanded verifiable, reliable sources from you Fnhddzs. On the other hand I am not accusing anyone of committing any crime therefore I don’t bear the burden of approving anything and that was why Миборовский did not refute my statement. Миборовский is fair.
  • You can see here [15] that the UN describes genocide as ""any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such:"(a) Killing members of the group;(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;..." Think about this in light of what is happening or has happened in the persecution. Taipei's China Times reported on September 1, 2000 "The Chinese Communist Party has decided to escalate its oppression of Falun Gong and plans to eradicate Falun Gong within three months." Eradicate?... It's clear that according to the UN definition we are talking about a genocide. Take a look at this report for more insight [16]. Mcconn 10:21, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The “Criticism and controversial teachings of Falun Gong” page should have the following two sets of titles. In honoring the work of editors who created the existing titles this material should stay. The new titles introduce material needed for people to fully understand the Falun Gong.

  • Criticism and controversial teachings of Falun Gong

Existing titles:

Li as a savior or supernatural entity
Difference between Falun Gong and Qigong
Demon
Fa-rectification and enlightenment
Falun Gong and sexual orientation
Claims to historical significance
Questionable significance of Falun Gong awards and recognitions

New titles:

Falun Gong teachings on medical treatment
Falun Gong’s view on other religions
Falun Gong’s doomsday theory
Falun Gong’s view on critics
Falun Gong teachings on races
Falun Gong teachings on medical treatment
Falun Gong’s recruitment method

--Samuel Luo 08:42, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There's no "doomsday theory". You must understand that nobody would allow such POV subtitles into the article. And Falun Gong doesn't "recruit"; you've obviously chosen such a word to emphasize that Falun Gong would "convert" or even pressure people to join its "organisation" in a cult-like manner. The demand for neutral wordings has been pointed out a zillion times before. Also, "Falun Gong's view on other religions" assumes that Falun Gong is a religion. While I understand that a lot of people would feel like this, the subtitles ought to be entirely neutral. --Olaf Stephanos 08:58, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Olaf. The subtitles he mentioned are unacceptable. Mcconn 14:54, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The subsections suggested by CovenantD were quite comprehensive and Neutral and I think most editors had agreed on that - kindly refrain from trying to pour your POV in - that will only serve to interfere with the edit process. Dilip rajeev 15:30, 27 April 2006 (UTC) Dilip rajeev 15:30, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Greetings all. I'm sorry I haven't been able to contribute much lately, the real world won't go away just yet! I want to congratulate you all on the more collegial atmosphere that now prevails. One thought about the criticisms section: I think we should have it just for notable criticisms from the CCP, Rick Ross, other religions, etc. and have them sourced properly, of course. The "controversial teachings" bit has to be handled more delicately, and probably in the Falun Gong teachings article, not the dedicated criticisms article, using bland statements like "Li claims that his methods are superior to those of any other school of qigong" and then provide links to quotes where he says such things. We don't have to have block quotes of things we can link to, unless one or two are immediately germane. --Fire Star 16:31, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi,Miborovsky. I agree to No more no less, only in a truely fair sense. There is no freedom of expression, publication or speech, under the control of CCP. Falun Gong practitioners vs. the CCP government is peaceful people without weapons and with no pay from no organizer vs. a state with army/police/agents/money. Think about it, it is the faith or good heart that works. Not money or external forces. This background may help us to tell which part is true. Fnhddzs 16:33, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Firestar, who is this Rick Ross you mentioned? Does he teach at some respectable university? I sincerely doubt it. You know, I may say whatever I want about the nature of the Thirty Years War, but it doesn't mean anything to someone investigating it. You need to have sources who actually have some relevance. Is Ross a cult expert? Would he invariably call my religion, the Christian faith, a cult as well? I know the CCP would. I don't think these are viable sources. Introduce some methodology for Pete's sake! I think Mccon is totally right!

Mibhorovovsky, I know you are just itching to block me. But now, all eyes are on you. Go ahead. I dare you.

As a neutral third party to this discussion, I have to encourage some of you to make better arguments. In fact the very way that some things on this site have been said have inevitably led to my having a HUGE chip on my shoulder directed towards some of you. You should know that, though Mibhorovosky reverted what I said and blocked me, leading to censorship.

Mibhorovovosky, this sounds like a personal attack to me. Check it out: 

       *  very important point: controlling information is a mind control (brainwashing) technique. In order for the mind to make decision information is needed; when one controls information that others receive one controls others' minds. (source: Steven Hassan, Releasing the Bonds, page 43.) Olaf, you are trying to control people’s mind.

--Samuel Luo 01:37, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Why wasn't Samuel blocked for 24 hours for making this pejorative accusation towards Olaf? Samuel has no grounds to make this accusation. In academics, it is quite well known that ALL writing is biased, and reflects personal characteristics of the one doing the writing. For Samuel to make such an argument here is out of line. He has no justifiable grounds to do so. Therefore, you must conclude that this is a personal attack on Olaf's character and his actions!— Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.33.75.9 (talk • contribs)

You can't be neutral if you have "a HUGE chip" on your shoulder about some of the people involved. CovenantD 21:50, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well I can because these editors use the most inane methodologies. It's quite evident. They have earned my lasting enmity. As a good Christian, I take no issue with what is going on here. But I think Olaf and Dijip and some of those others are good people who seem honest.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.33.75.9 (talk • contribs)
Lasting enmity, Christian and neutral. If you say so. And please sign your edits by typing four tilde (~). It's that thing you get when you hold down the shift key and hit the key next to the 1. CovenantD 22:08, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Well, do you think Mibhorovovovsky missed the ball on blocking Samuel? It's quite obvious to any layman. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.33.75.9 (talk • contribs)

Accusing someone of trying to control information (/minds) is an accusation towards a person's conduct. Your behaviour was a slanderous accusation against several persons' being. -- Миборовский U|T|C|M|E|Chugoku Banzai! 22:32, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sometimes Reversal of Burden of Proof applies

The popular interpretation of "burden of proof" is that if one party accuses another party of something, the accuser should provide evidence to validate his/her accusation. In modern civilized societies, however, under certain circumstances, the responsibility to present evidence is reversed [17][18][19][20][21]. "Reversal of the burden of proof" is usually applied when the accused is in possession of, or monopolizes, the evidence. Reversal of the burden of proof does stand in these situations on the basis of justice and moral principles. A civilized society prevents those with power from harming and exploiting less powerful groups.

Since the CCP is a totalitarian regime that used to ignore its people and blocks information, reversal of the burden of proof becomes absolutely necessary in order to uphold justice.

What a idiot. I don't see Chinese people worshipping giant portraits of Hu Jintao, or pray to him everyday. Your sayings are moot, especially from someone who never set foot in China.--PatCheng 02:27, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Outside a legal context, "burden of proof" means that someone suggesting a new theory or stating a claim must provide evidence to support it: it is not sufficient to say "you can't disprove this". Specifically, when anyone is making a bold claim, it is not someone else's responsibility to disprove the claim, but is rather the person's responsibility who is making the bold claim to prove it.

Taken more generally, the standard of proof demanded to establish any particular conclusion varies with the subject under discussion. Just as there is a difference between the standard required for a criminal conviction and in a civil case, so there are different standards of proof applied in many other areas of life.

The less reasonable a statement seems, the more proof it requires. The scientific consensus on cold fusion is a good example. The majority believes this can not really work, because believing that it would do so would force the alteration of a great many other beliefs about thermodynamics.

A classic example comes from Criswell's final speech at the end of Ed Wood's Plan 9 from Outer Space: "My friends, you have seen this incident, based on sworn testimony. Can you prove that it didn't happen?". Considering that the incident in question involved grave robbers from space, the burden of proof is being incorrectly assigned.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof 24.189.163.169 20:19, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Hi, you are still talking about the "burden of proof" generally. I am talking about it regarding this article. I found the background seems to warrant a "reversal of burden of proof". I wish you could say the same thing in China when Falun Gong practitioners were accused. Unfortunately, China's law systems assume the accused are guilty. I understand we are talking about some international thing. Just keep the background in mind. We also have to consider the situation that the same standard cannot be applied. for example, the different law systems between China and Western countries. I am glad we are communicating on this though. Fnhddzs 20:50, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]


  • sorry was gone for so long. Was researching on who the actual burden of proof will rest on internationally on genocide. And according to this article I read. It's the prosceutor that has to provide proof. Ie: the accusor. (had to make sure so I don't give any false info.) not my intention/goal to deceive anyone. This is in relationship to Milosevic and his time at the UN tribunal. Enjoy.

http://www.bosnia.org.uk/news/news_body.cfm?newsid=1875

Also this quote from "wikipedia's burden of proof: An evidentiary burden or burden of leading evidence is an obligation that shifts between parties over the course of the hearing or trial. A party may submit evidence that the court will consider prima facie proof of some state of affairs. This creates an evidentiary burden upon the opposing party to present evidence to refute the presumption." Which I think China already did with the concentration camp episode. When no evidence was found by the US inquiry... the burden of proof lies on the accusor again.


Damn I'm becginning to feel like a lawyer.


24.189.163.169 22:07, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • In that case, the "reversal of burden of proof" seemed not applied. I guess that is because Milosevic was overturned then. He was not in possession of, or did not monopolize the evidence at that time. So your example is interesting but seems not applicable to the case we were discussing. Also the China laws presume the accused guilty, which is the opposite to the law in free world. How to account for that difference may not be answered by us. But it seems that history showed that
if Milosevic could be sued before he was overturned, more innocent people could be saved;
If nazi killing could be investigated before waiting for evidence too long, more innocent people could be saved.

When we discuss about this here in a peaceful fashion, could we remember the lessons given from history also? Fnhddzs 00:18, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Tibetans filed genocide law suit against Jiang Zemin this year [22] I think the aritcle may include the fact that Falun Gong practitioners filed genocide law suit.Fnhddzs 01:07, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

From our Genocide article:
"Much debate about genocides revolves around the proper definition of the word "genocide". The exclusion of social and political groups as targets of genocide in this legal definition has been criticized. Some historians and sociologists when discussing genocide include actions against such groups. Most generally, genocide is the deliberate destruction of a social identity.[citation needed]
A major criticism of the international community's response to the Rwandan Genocide was that it was reactive, not proactive. The international community has developed a mechanism for prosecuting the perpetrators of genocide but has not developed the will or the mechanisms for intervening in a genocide as it happens. Critics point to the Darfur conflict and suggest that if anyone is found guilty of genocide after the conflict either by prosecutions brought in the International Criminal Court or in an ad hoc International Criminal Tribunal, this will confirm this perception.[citation needed]
According to R. J. Rummel, genocide has 3 different meanings. The ordinary meaning is murder by government of people due to their national, ethnical, racial, or religious group membership. The legal meaning of genocide refers to the international treaty, the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. This also includes nonkillings that in the end eliminate the group, such as preventing births or forcibly transferring children out of the group to another group. A generalized meaning of genocide is similar to the ordinary meaning but also includes government killings of political opponents or otherwise intentional murder. It is to avoid confusion regarding what meaning is intended that Rummel created the term democide for the third meaning.[1]"
If we are going to use the word genocide in any of the articles, we have to say who uses it and who doesn't use it. We can't apply it ourselves. --Fire Star 01:25, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Vote on a basic structure for the article

  • 10.1 Falun Gong sites
  • 10.2 Critical sites
  • 10.3 Other sites
Okay, everybody, before we get too far ahead of ourselves, let's figure out if we've finalized the basic structure for this article. I've looked over everyone's comments again (including my own) and tried to incorporate them. I've fixed the numbering, and I think we can come to agreement on this one. Let's find out.To keep it simple, I'm setting up areas for Support, Oppose, Questions, and Comments. Shall we give it, say, three days? CovenantD 20:27, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Support the proposed structure
CovenantD 20:27, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose the proposed structure

Questions before I can decide
I'd still like to know what exactly is meant by "Falun Gong organisation" and whether people feel this is a misleading subtitle. Chapter 5 could be "Falun Gong awards and their disputed importance" (rather than questionable). And what about "Theoretical background", where did that one go? ---Olaf Stephanos 20:38, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Organization can cover the various interpretations, such as the lack of membership and formal leaders, that sort of thing, as well as other views on the matter. It's not meant to imply that there is a formal structure, just provide a place for that discussion. Olaf, since yours are the first questions, I can edit the above outline to include Theoretical background, which I've done. Sorry I missed that one. I like Disputed much more that Questionable, so that goes in too. :) I won't be able to make changes once the first vote comes in, so ask away. CovenantD 20:43, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"Disputed" implies something whose true meaning is being debated, while "questionable" means the thing in question is found to be objectionable by some. I think "controversial" is the best word here. -- Миборовский U|T|C|M|E|Chugoku Banzai! 22:44, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
So noted. Fnhddzs, as the only person to vote so far, how do you feel about this proposed change? CovenantD 22:51, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
no comments. not an essential issue to me. absent vote on this change. Thanks. Fnhddzs 23:19, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Change made. CovenantD 23:23, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comments about the proposed structure

Support 90% Comments: 'Falun Gong in China' instead of 'Falun Gong with the Chinese government'. Fnhddzs 22:10, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I guess in all the edits you missed my earlier question. What aspects of Falun Gong in China do you think need to be covered that aren't already in another section? I'm not debating you, I'm trying to understand your reasoning, and balance that against the potential for Falun Gong in China to be too broad of a topic. CovenantD 22:51, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, Falun Gong in China may be too broad. this would be covered in orgins/history, awards and with the government. Fnhddzs 23:12, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

SupportThis structure for the article has my full support. The Fading Light 9:10, 27 April 2006

Comments I assume the old "Cultivation of mind and body" part will be put in "Falun Gong teachings". But there is a subsection 6.4 Research into health claims [23]. I don't think it belongs to teachings. So where it can go? Combined into Awards and controversial importance part? Maybe the title could be changed? Fnhddzs 02:16, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To 70.33.75.9/71.106.174.113/164.67.59.37

If you make personal attacks you WILL be blocked. My blocks to your different IP addresses were for personal attacks you made. Samuel Luo has not made a personal attack. You have, first on all the anti-FLG editors and then me when I blocked you for the first time. Try it again, and it wouldn't just be 24 hours. -- Миборовский U|T|C|M|E|Chugoku Banzai! 22:26, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

All of these editors gained my enmity after I read their dialogues. At first it was only Etaonsh who infuriated me(see "Nazism and the Swastika"). But, as I read each of these people's writing, more joined the list (Samuel Luo, Firestar, and Tomanda). As you will notice, you didn't join the list until later, although reading your writing and how you dropped the ball with Samuel Luo makes it evident you also are an anti FLG editor. Therefore, to categorically claim that I made attacks on "all the anti FLG editors" is clearly false. Or maybe that is the real reason you blocked me, because I called out your friends, as you obviously didn't block Samuel Luo.

Are you currently living in Russia? Can we have a cup of coffee? I can give you good career advice. =)— Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.33.75.9 (talk • contribs)

Uh huh. So you think your personal attacks were justified?
Oh and no thanks. As a double agent working for the KGB and CIA, I can make a decent living. -- Миборовский U|T|C|M|E|Chugoku Banzai! 22:42, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Anyone familiar with the aforementioned people will know it is true. Plus, my last post was a mockery. It was a metaphor. So you are saying that there would be no grounds to block and revert my posting IF it merely mentions the facts of their life and accuses their conduct?

But you will thoroughly enjoy a face to face meeting. Have courage my fellow Russkie! Do I have to bribe you to get you to come? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.33.75.9 (talk • contribs)

Still unrepentant huh... that they are metaphors do not excuse you in any way. Mockery of other editors is personal attack. "IF it merely mentions the facts of their life and accuses their conduct"... you won't be blocked under WP:NPA at least, but then I wonder what your intent was for posting these "facts of their life" [sic]. And how true they are. You can be blocked for incivility, libel and harassment. -- Миборовский U|T|C|M|E|Chugoku Banzai! 23:00, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No to Covenant's outline!

Looks like we are not going to cooperate after all. Those who wish to post critical edits of the Falung Gong cannot accept Covenant's change of categories #3 and #6. This will not work and we will have a revert war from day one. I have posted above about why that is the case. This decision must be made with the agreement of critics of Falun Gong, it cannot be made by majority vote since there are more FG practitioners on this site than there are critics. The only acceptable scheme for # 3 and #6 in the outline is:

  • 3 Criticism and contrvoversial teachings
  • Or: Criticism and controversies about Falun Gong teachings and practices
  • Or: Criticism and controvery (as in the case of Scientology)

In other words, this section CANNOT be limited to the teachiings.

  • 6 Falun Gond awards and recognitions

link to Questionable significance of Falun Gong awards and recognitions (a section in the criticism page).

If the above two modest requests are not honored, I request that we seek a mediator immediately before continuing to waste our collective time in this discussion. It seems clear that the practioner editors on this site will not be happy unless they can dictate the content of this article in such a way that effectively kills critical voices. Fire Star: could you please facilitate getting us a mediator for this process as soon as possible? --Tomananda 01:23, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

We can go over this again, nothing is written in stone. We have to find language that satisfies a consensus of our editors, and I believe it is possible. I am critical of FLG, and I am also critical of the CCP, and I think it is possible to satisfy people who are one or the other or both (as in my case). But we should take it one step at a time. Propose your changes to those sections and we can try to work them in. If people want a mediator, we should set a deadline (24 hrs., 3 days, etc.) and if we don't have a consensus by then, we can request one. That is my suggestion. --Fire Star 01:37, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fire Star: I am not proposing something new here. If you go back and read through the discussion you'll see that Covenant has actually changed the wording I had proposed and we had discussed. My objection is not over this word over that, but rather that the "criticism" page title really can't be limited to criticism just about the teachings. There are Falun Gong practices that critics write about as well. In Covenant's proposed wording, most people would conclude the entire page is only about Criticism and Controversies about the teachings. I am happy to suggest a number of different variations in language which avoid this problem, such as:

  • Criticism and controversies about Falun Gong teachings and practices
  • Criticism and controversies about the Falun Gong
  • Falung Gong critics and controversies

There was already some favorable responses to these types of formulations in the discussion, so frankly I am at a loss as to why we are still debating it. I know we're supposed to assume "good faith" but somehow I can't escape thinking that the intent here is to only sanction a criticism page that can address the teachings, but not the controversial practices of the Falun Gong.--Tomananda 03:26, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • You should have asked. My concern is the size of the article. If it's thrown wide open to generalized Criticisms, it's going to become a huge unwieldy thing not unlike this article is now. I'm certainly open to having as many criticism sections as needed but not one huge monstrosity. From what I've seen, others agree. Point and counterpoint, point and counterpoint. CovenantD 03:46, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Personally, I don't see the difference between Criticism and Controversies about Falun Gong teachings and Criticism and controversial teachings other than one is more specific than that other, a good thing when referencing a separate article. As far as #6, no. I've explained that I want to keep the bit about awards and the controversy about them together. You have yet to present a reason why they should be split. CovenantD 02:04, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
PS - Please don't make the assumption that those who support this are Falun Gong practitioners. You know what they say about assuming...
When I said things aren't written in stone, I meant that the proposed outline is a starting point. The article content then has to be decided. While I agree following a template similar to established articles isn't a bad idea, we usually don't have a completely different set of pro and con articles on every subject. I don't yet see a reason to separate Questionable significance of Falun Gong awards and Falun Gong awards and recognitions. We can balance both presentations in one article, I believe. --Fire Star 02:19, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Criticism could be to teachings or other than teachings. The title does not limit it to teachings although it may read that way (by the effect of "and"). Well, but we may need a section to talk about Falun Gong other than teachings: such as research into health claims. It does not have to be a separate article. Maybe melt into the criticism if everyone feel fair. Fnhddzs 02:34, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well, maybe we want to think about another set of categories: Falun Gong claims and the Controversies about Falun Gong claims. CovenantD 03:03, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fire Star: The existing section Questionable significance for Falun Gong awards [24] was written in its present form to fit into a Criticism page section precisely because the earlier version which had been part of the main FG awards section suffered endless deletions by Dilip, Mcconn or others. It becomes exhausting to defend the same content over and over again, even after it has been discussed to death, especially when you are outnumbered by the so many Pro-Falun Gong editors. I am not proposing this approach for just any topic and agree with you that wouldn’t make sense. But there are some topics which split very nicely into two sections, and this “Questionable significance of FG award” section is a good example. In an earlier version of the article you did cross-linking between these two sections and I found that most effective. All a reader had to do was click to see the other point of view. Plus, there is virtually no redundancy between the two articles. I did a separate post to you above, please check it out. Thanks. --Tomananda 04:10, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

PS: You suggested that we set a deadline for coming to agreement on all the structural issues, including the content of the new sections and that if we don't reach a consensus by that point you would seek an editor. I think this is a good idea and propose that we allow ourselves 4 days to complete this task. By my caluculation, that will take us to May 1st. In Wikipedia time I think that's 04:00 1 May 2006. What say the other editors?--Tomananda 04:18, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

4 days is very generous I'll say, fine with me. I'll be looking over your diffs above tonight. --Fire Star 04:28, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. I'd say you're assuming bad faith on the part of certain editors. I'd also say that you must have missed it where I suggested three days when I set out the proposed outline. It seems that everybody checks in at least that often. But whatever. I just want to see it done. CovenantD 04:32, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
That is assuming that after 4 days there is no agreement, I'd think. If it isn't done and ready to roll in 4 days, it will be because of some intractable problem. 3 days would be better, 2 days better still and 5 minutes ago perfect. The proposition was for the seeking of mediation from an outside editor after no agreement. It was a suggestion. I've already done a request for comment on this article a month ago and got no reply. The next step is mediation, then arbitration. That is usually only done with intractable conflicts between mutually antagonistic editors, which has really settled down here, so I'm 99% sure it will be unnecessary. --Fire Star 05:33, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Covenant, I suggested 4 days instead of 3 because we are going into a weekend and some people are not always on line throughout a weekend. No slight intended.--Tomananda 05:15, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
4 days is ample time. Let's not limit ourselves to this, however. If we can get it done in two or three days that would be better. I'd like to see the article unlocked as soon as possible. As for whether the awards section should be split into two seperate article, I would say that it really depends on the amount of content. If there is enough content to sustain one section which is objective, simply listing the awards and recognition Falun Gong has recieved, and the another that discusses the relevence of these from different perspectives, then why not? I agree with Tomanda that it would be easy enough for people to click on the links to their coresponding pages. As for the title, I feel that the word "disputed" is more neutral than "questionable", so I opt for its usage in the title of the section. I think the title "Criticisms and Controversies of (or "about") Falun Gong" is the best for that page. Mcconn 05:24, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Mcconn: The article on the criticism side cannot be, as you suggest, a "discussion of the relevance of these awards from different perspectives." By definition, it is a report on the disputed significance of these awards. There can be a response to those allegations, but by definition the section will lead with the diputes.
I agree disputed is better than questionable, which implies too much on our part. Disputed conveys the same concept with less emotional charge, IMO. --Fire Star 05:38, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Just recall Miborovsky seemed like the word "controversial" better.

"Disputed" implies something whose true meaning is being debated, while "questionable" means the thing in question is found to be objectionable by some. I think "controversial" is the best word here. -- Миборовский U|T|C|M|E|Chugoku Banzai! 22:44, 27 April 2006 (UTC) Fnhddzs 05:56, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm ok with Disputed significance of Falun Gong awards and recognitions as the topic heading. I am also ok with some version of your other suggested page title as well. Here are some variants:
Falung Gong: controversies and criticism (I think criticism is best in singular form)
Criticism and controversies concerning Falun Gong
--Tomananda 06:19, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fire Star, thank you for changing the heading so that I'm no longer being yelled at. It was really disturbing.
Tomananda, I'm not sure that you are seeing that other people want a separate Controversy page or section for each point, not just a separate article that covers all of them. As far as I can see, you seem to be the only holdout on this. You also don't seem to be addressing the concern that a single Controversy page will become too large. Would you speak to this please?
I'd also like to point people to TOC item #8, the proposed summary of the 'Teachings' section. Anybody have comments on it? CovenantD 15:02, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I thought we were all in agreement that there would be one "Criticism" page with sub-topics, such as those which have already been discussed above. The starting point should be to deal with the content and topics we have now and agree to what section they go to. I've written several proposals on this above. So I am not sure there's disagreemnt here, unless you object to the Cricitism page being broken up into separate topics, but I don't think that's what you are saying.--Tomananda 16:39, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Speaking of changing titles, I notice someone has gone ahead and created a separate page for the criticism section which only addresses the teachings. As I've said repeatedly this is not acceptable and I question why this page was created in the first place. Please my most recent posts on this subject. In the last post I proposed two titles, and there are more that we could discuss.
Falung Gong: controversies and criticism (I think criticism is best in singular form)
Criticism and controversies concerning Falun Gong

Fire Star: can you please go ahead and change the title of that existing page to one of these titles? Or suggest an alternative wording that is broader than just the teachings? Somehow I feel like we keep spinning our wheels but some of what appears to be agreed to gets ignored. In fact, why was that page created in the first place? We are supposed to be reaching agreement here on the structure of the article and the titles of the separate pages, so why has a separate page already gone up with an unacceptable title? We talk about assuming good faith, and I do try to assume good faith, but then I discover that something like this has happened. Please, as we go forward, let's work in the order of the suggested topics and reach agreement one at time. After that, we need to go back and deal with assigning the sub-topics into their appropriate sections. --Tomananda 16:56, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I think we're dealing with a difference in interpretation. I'm talking about having many different articles that cover the different points of Controversy, all linked back to this article and cross-referenced to the similar pro- topic. I'm interpreting support for the outline that shows that format as support for that concept. You seem to want a single Controvery article broken into sections. The way I see it, they are basically the same thing except that in my plan there will be more overall room for Controversies and each one will be more specific. I don't think we're that far apart in concept. CovenantD 17:01, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, and that's not a separate article that the link you refer to points at - it's the relevant section of the main Falun Gong article, just until the separate article gets written. It's an example of how the pro and con pages will cross link. CovenantD 17:11, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Still not clear and what you have in mind. Do you envision a separate page for different broad topics that relate to controversies and criticism? My understanding from looking at other Wikipedia articles as a model (eg: Scientology) is that the links that are embedded in the main page typically link to sub-sections within the Criticism page. Is that how you see it working?
--Tomananda 17:16, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm proposing many different articles, each covering a separate part of the controversy that is Falun Gong. I'm not wanting to limit the length of text about controversies (or positives, for that matter), just limit the size of each article. Wikipedia suggests about a 32k article. A single article covering all controversies will far exceed that. The Scientology article is far above that. If each controversy is treated separately, each can recieve the attention people want to give it. Does that clear up my ideas and my reasoning? CovenantD 17:27, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Covenant: now I understand what you are proposing. I don't have an objection to that scheme, but I wonder if we should go that far at this point given the fact that our existing content is minimal. So far the discussion above really hasn't addressed multiple criticism pages as you are proposing. Under your proposed scheme, I would have to think a bit about how best to break up controveries and criticism into separate pages, and I imagine so would everyone else. Clearly it depends on the topic. For example, I can envision something like this:

  • Controvesial teachings on sexual orientation or: Is Falun Gong homophobic?
  • Controversial teachings on racial differences or: Is Falun Gong racist?
  • Self-promotion of the Falun Gong (including a section on allegations of manipulation of politicians to get support)
  • Is Falun Gong a cult?
  • Do Falun Gong's teachings on sickness jeopardize the public heath?

If we go this direction, the result will be that we will have many pages which have just "stubs" as the starting text. Certainly the article as it exists now does not warrent this many separate pages, but down trhe road it could. What are other editors' thoughts on this?--Tomananda 18:18, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Of the five examples you list, I see #1, 2, 4 & 5 fitting under Controversies about Teachings. Number 3 falls under both Controversies about awards and Falun Gong outside China, depending on the context. Of course if any particular Controversies article isn't large enough to support itself we look for something to group it with. I can see Awards and Controversies about awards all fitting nicely into one article, for example, thus presenting both sides in one space but still keeping the size right and not bloating the main article. CovenantD 18:31, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, Is Falun Gong a cult? is more about practices (the disciple-master relationship and what FG practitioners are expected to do) than teachings per se. And the controversies of awards section does fit nicely into a separate criticism page on Controversial practices of Falun Gong if we're going to separate teachings from practices. Obviously, more needs to be written in this "practices" category, because everyone has been spending the most time on the teachings. But I could envision part of practices covering the Falun Gong as an organization issue. Yes, I know that the FG always claims not to be an organization, but that claim is easily challenged by critics. In fact, a bit of those challenges already exist in the current version.--Tomananda 18:45, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. So if I understand you, you're proposing that two new sections be added, Practices and Controversies about practices, probably right after the two on Teachings. Correct? (I'd really like to keep Awards and their controversial importance as a stand-alone because between the two of them I see enough material to justify it.) CovenantD 19:15, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, we would have to have a separate "Practices" section with title "Criticism and controversies about practices." One of it's subsections would be Is Falun Gong a cult? But there would be others. Concerning your statement about the Awards section, the reason I object to combining everything into that section is that past practice has shown that the practitioners do a lot of blanking of the material in that section, even though it was thoroughly sourced and debated in earlier discussions. For your reference, this is the section we are talking about:

[25] So in order to agreee to combining this with the main awards section, I would have to have a committment from the practitioiners that they would: 1) not delete this as a separate section under the Awards topic by trying to cherry pick the sentences and merge them into the main section. 2) the title for that sub-category, based on our prior discussion, would have to be: Debatable significane of Falun Gong awards and recognitions. What this means is that if editors who are pro-Falun Gong want to present other points of view about awards and recongitions, they would be expected to create another section under the main topic, rather than trying to rewrite the critical section to obscure what it reports. --Tomananda 19:55, 28 April 2006 (UTC) Still the critized content cannot be groundless. Everybody has right to write any part. Fnhddzs 22:46, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To me "debatable" implies views from both sides. That means doubt towards their significance, as well as support, either of which can be debated. Also, I can assure you that I won't rewrite anything in attempt to obscure its meaning, I don't believe in that. However, I may rewrite things in order to clarify their meaning. Mcconn 17:24, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
We should present a balanced perspective. It shouldn't obscure the intent of any party or side if we present them all, within reason. "Questionable" and ("debatable slightly less so) seems slightly pejorative to me, "controversial" and "disputed" seem more neutral. That is just my opinion, though. --Fire Star 17:47, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I prefer "disputed", but "controversial" is also ok with me. I also want to mention that I disagree with the suggestion of the title "Is Falun Gong homophobic?". The term "homophobic" means different things to different people and in recent years has incorrectly been used by many as a label for those who simply don't believe in homosexuality. When weel split up the article before he linked the section to a page like this Christianity and homosexuality. All of the pages like this use the heading "xxx and homosexuality", which I think is the most neutral way to present the section. So I instead suggest this style of heading, i.e. "Falun Gong and Homosexuality". Mcconn 18:05, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Agree, that is a better title to me. Fnhddzs 18:20, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Some Suggestions

I think just "Organization" would be better than "Falun Gong Organization" - That makes it clear we are discussing the Organization of Falun Gong rather than an organization (noun). I suggest that we keep "Research into Health Benefits" as a seperate section. Research along these lines are still in its infancy but there is some material available - including the survey on 12000 chinese practitioners and research from Dr Feng. Enough material for a sepearate section I'd say. And it doesnt fit into the other sections - we need a seperate section for that. Apart from that, I agree with mosty other titles.

"Falun Gong and Chinese Government" really wouldnt fit the material likely to be discussed under that title - I'd say the title should be something Like "Chinese Government's Crackdown on Falun Gong" or "The Persecution of Falun Gong in China"

Dilip rajeev 15:33, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dilip - For the Chinese gov't section, I was aiming for something with a NPOV. I don't think either of your suggestions fit that criteria. You may notice that it used to be Crackdown, but was changed for just that reason.
Capitalization should be enough to take care of the Falun Gong organization section. CovenantD 16:38, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I think "Organization" is NPOV. The "Falun Gong Organization" implies there is a "Falun Gong Organization".

Also, we could refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity , there is a separate part of "persecution". If we don't want to single out Chinese government, we could just use a title "persecution". Personally, I know not every official in Chinese government wish to start the persecution.[26] The defectors Chen Yonglin and Hao, Fengjun [27][28] could be examples. Yet, I am still thinking we cannot deny the fact that it is the CCP-led Chinese government or CCP who did the persecution, regardless it was not their consensus decision. Fnhddzs 23:16, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agree to keep "Research into Health Benefits". It does not belong to teachings. If combined into critism, I feel unfair. Fnhddzs 22:36, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Here are some link about what is persecution. [29][30] Obviously there is persecution to Falun Gong according to these links and other reports I posted before. Fnhddzs 23:29, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Covenant, you are wrong. It sounds like a "crackdown" or "persecution" to me. How that could even be disputed is beyond conventional wisdom. It was many years ago that I read of Falun Gong and the crackdown. There must be hundreds of witnesses in regards to this. Newspaper reporters, diplomats, tourists, Chinese nationals, and so on. Dijip, I am starting to suspect Covenant is really an anti- FLG editor posing as a pro- FLG editor. I thought you might like to know. That is the impression I get.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.106.174.113 (talk • contribs)

Don't forget to sign your edits. CovenantD 02:59, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
User:71.106.174.113 has been blocked for repeatedly using multiple accounts to disrupt the main FLG page, make threats and vandalise pages. IMO, his comments above were another attempt to initiate a needless dispute between editors working together in good faith. --Fire Star 03:10, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Fire Star, although I have to admit I found it amusing. With Tomananda convinced I was pro-Fulan Gong, and this one convinced I was anti-, I figured I couldn't get better credentials for my neutrality. :) CovenantD 15:44, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I've been accused of being on both sides by unhappy editors, too, and not just here. As the old Wiki-saying goes "an article is truly neutral when you can't tell the POV of the author by the article they've written" or something like that. Any lawyer could convincingly assassinate Li's (or anyone's) arguments and character in an article, but that isn't what we are here to do, it isn't encyclopaedic. A neutral, dry article will give readers enough info to make up their own minds. If what Li says sounds credible to them, FLG has another aherent; if it doesn't, they don't. That shouldn't be up to us. --Fire Star 17:42, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. Yeah, if some facts themselves are negative (such as persecution), we cannot hide them by using a neutral word. NPOV does not mean our wording is always neutral. We are not helping Falun Gong to get disciples (or to the opposite) by using the word "persecution". Fnhddzs 18:10, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Is anyone interested in the following article nominated for deletion?

Looking for participants in the the discussion of List of religions once classed as cults 24.87.87.211 14:30, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dilip's Reply

I disagee, "71.106.174.113". Covenant is not putting forward his POV or anything. There was some controversy on this before in the talk section and Covenant adopted a title thats least likely to attract dispute - thats all.

I do think what happens in China meets, beyond any ambiguity, the criteria for a "persecution" or "crackdown". Could we really lie to ourselves on that? No. In my opinion, the truth matters far more than using objective language to please everybody. I want to remind the editors that the section is on the CCP's crackdown on Falun Gong not "Chinese Government and Falun Gong" but we cant keep arguing endlessy over trivia right now. If the title "CCP's crackdown on Falun Gong" is a POV the whole section is a POV. Eitors are requested to go trhough the pages of Amnesty International on the matter. Even if you just consider US Congress resolution No. 188 or U.N reports on the Persecution of Falun Gong - it is easy to appreaciate that "crackdown" or "Persecution" is obviously not someone's POV( Point of View). It is not my "Point of View" that peoplea re being incarcerated and tortured to death for practicing Falun Gong and striving to be better people. It is certainly not my POV that Chinese goverment has destroyed huge amounts of Falun Gong books, blocked access to webpages on Falun Gong and Officially banned Falun Gong.

I request Fire Star to lift the ban on the IP considering that it is only human to react emotionally when people come to understand the exent of cruelty involved in the Chinese Government's crackdown. At the same time, I request that 71.106.174.113 be understanding of Fire Star's temporary block on your IP. We are all working towards a factual article here, your inputs to the effect are most welcome, "71.106.174.113".

Dilip rajeev 15:58, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I very much agree. "Persecution" is a very negative term, however, we shouldn't avoid it simply for that reason. What the Chinese government has done fully meets the term's definition, which has been acknowledged by many third party sources, as Dilip mentioned. I opt for "persecution" rather than "crackdown" or "suppression" becuase it more clearly describes the reality of what is being discussed. I also want to say that we are all editors putting time and effort into this article. It doesn't matter what our stance on Falun Gong is, we need to do our best to cooperate and respect each other. Mcconn 17:43, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]


The title of the criticism page

Hi CovenantD, could you give us an update on the title of the criticism page? I understand that we have till May 1st to finalize the structure of the article, how much have we accomplished? Sorry, my job kept me very busy last two days and all these postings are pretty hard to follow. Thanks. --Samuel Luo 18:19, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Samuel: Seems not ready 100%, but it won't hurt you get the summary ready. Fnhddzs 19:19, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm gonna give it a few more hours to let others give more feedback on the recent comments and suggestions, then I'll try to pull it all together. CovenantD 19:36, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Criteria for unlocking the page

Is it correct to understand that once the structure is agreed upon and applied the page will be unlocked? If that's the case, then fine, I'll be glad to be able to edit it again. However, in addition to stucture, much of the edit war was also over content. Will the resolution of these disputes be left for after the page is unlocked? Mcconn 18:28, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Once the structure is agreed upon we can start really working on the summaries that are going to replace a lot of the content that's there right now. I know that you've worked up one for the Teachings section that hasn't been reviewed yet. If anybody else wants to start writing up summaries, this would be a good time. I'd hate to see all this agreement break down the moment we start editing content. I'd suggest we agree on a few summaries before unlocking the page. CovenantD 19:36, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I share the viewpoint - we need to work on the summaries first. Dilip rajeev 06:20, 30 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why Credibility of Chinese media is suspectable

  • Just raise one observation: Chinese newsreports after the crackdown are totally different with before the crackdown [citation available later]. I have said, in China, after you are claimed as the target (enemy), you are labeled as anything they want and lose human rights. Overnight, a previous vice State Chairman (e.g. Liu Shaoqi) was called anti-revoluntionary and many 'evidence' for his crimed were forged suddenly and published on the newspapers. Therefore, the credibility of all news after the crackdown is weak or zero. Also think about why similar allegations (such as 1400 cases) do not occur in other countries or areas? We know Falun Gong is quite popular in areas out of mainland China -- for example, Taiwan. So I think we should seriously keep this background in mind when citing media reports. Fnhddzs 07:16, 30 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It hardly helps your case that you only name one country where complaints are not made re the widespread practise of Falun Gong, and that country happens to be that part of China in which many of the most intractable enemies of the Communist régime have taken refuge - in fact it draws attention to Falun Gong as a likely cover for political activity. Also, why must I accept your implication that enemies of Western régimes don't get 'labelled as anything they want and lose human rights'? Etaonsh 07:31, 30 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The allegations did not occur on ALL countries/areas (including Hong Kong and Macow) except mainland China, as far as I know. Neither before the crackdown. Isn't it an interesting phenomena? I only mentioned one area where there are many practitioners. I think they are quite close geographically. I also know Falun Gong is popular in other areas such as South Korea. Because I personally like to watch movies from these two places. I like some culture of those areas. That's why I take them for examples. I did not say western media are always true. Fnhddzs 08:40, 30 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

But participants here objecting to Falun Gong and citing examples are not (all, if any) from mainstream China - are you implying our contributions don't exist (because it certainly looks like it)? South Korea is also clearly an example of an hotbed of political anti-communism. You merely draw attention to the fact that fascistic Falun Gong has failed to take root in Western liberal democracies. You seem to be trying to change the goalposts of the discussion re suppression of dissent/labelling of dissidents to one about media, instead of addressing the issue raised. Etaonsh 09:08, 30 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Etanosh, The Concern the editors have is that media in main land China is state controlled. We know what the CCP has been doing to Falun Gong practitioners. United States Resolution No. 188 states:

"Propaganda from state-controlled media in the People's Republic of China has inundated the public in an attempt to breed hatred and discrimination."

Dilip rajeev 11:04, 30 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The real issue to me is whether the media is genuinely free, varied, affordable and thereby subject to real, democratic forces of demand. Whether it is dominated by the state, individuals, cartels or a social class is surely very much secondary going on red herring? Etaonsh 18:30, 30 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, I am concerned about media. Since we have to refer to the sources from media. I am surprised why you are not concerned. I am not clear about all western countries. But I know areas such as Canada, Norway, U.S. etc. are supporting Falun Gong. As I know, no country except China has those allegations. South Korea and Taiwan exercise democracy, don't you know? If they are anti-communism, you imply Western democracy are pro-communism?:) Fnhddzs 15:42, 30 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Western democracies vary greatly in this respect from McCarthyist heritage America to Western continental Europe with its tradition of proactive, influential CPs. But I think it's reasonably NPOV to state that South Korea and Taiwan, with their territorial-related anti-communist issues, look right-wing and anti-Communist at times from a broad Western perspective, with our (outward) traditions of tolerance and Christian/liberal values. Western gullibility to alien Eastern traditions is arguably at root another side of the racist coin - the aliennesss of the alien can be exaggerated, resulting in sluggish assimilation and understanding; part and parcel of which is that it can become romanticised, exaggerated, stereotyped and misunderstood - 'Karma Cola.' Even with 'First World' standards of living, ignorance remains a big issue even at the highest levels, as shown in the recent WMD debacle. If millions depend on sources like Wikipedia for briefings on topics like Falun Gong, with our current, one-sided impasse, it is no wonder that national parliaments show evidence of having failed to identify two valid sides in the conflict, thereby, arguably, contributing little or nothing to its resolution. As stated above, I too am concerned about the media, but see it as only one part of the labelling and demonisation of dissidents issue, which is a worldwide phenomenon. Etaonsh 18:56, 30 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, I don't have personal knowledge of other countries. So some of what I said may be partial. Falun Gong itself has nothing to do with the concept of country[31]. I just tried to address about the reputation of media concerned in our edits and why Credibility of Chinese media is suspectable.Fnhddzs 15:53, 30 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a picture [32] where 36 Falun Gong practitioners from Western countries went to Beijing Tianmen square to express "Falun Dafa is good" and appeal for stopping the persecution, on Nov 20, 2001. Fnhddzs 15:59, 30 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

One of the 36 practitioners named Zenon Dolnyckyj wrote a book "Coming for you". It is downloadable from [33].Fnhddzs 16:09, 30 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Although info from China news sources is questionable. I have to point out that FLG sources are not immune from problems. We're talking about sources which reports highly detailed torture scenes (who was the witness?), neglects contradicting facts with no reason (CNN Tiananmen report), and twists facts to fit their master's sayings (Feng LiLi on the pineal gland). If one wants to waive info from China by merely attacking the source, FLG reports should probably not be used either.

--Yenchin 20:38, 30 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Of course it isn't just info from China news sources which is questionable. If I read Fnhddzs rightly, it isn't just the source which is questioned, but its unity. I can't allow this common view to pass as NPOV without countering that non-communist, Western-type media, which supports Falun Gong, is largely owned and therefore dominated by rich men, major news corporations and, inevitably, their (similarly uniform, inevitably anti-communist, pro-subversion) POV. Etaonsh 21:26, 30 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Don't get me wrong. What I said "support" just means they are reasonable. Please refrain labeling anybody who is reasonable as pro-Falun Gong. Fnhddzs 01:11, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Good point. I was focusing on the correctiveness of the info and didn't notice much about this. FLG members often waive away reports from China as propaganda, smear tactics and so on. Like any evidence China brings up is for the sake of giving FLG a bad name. By this logic, any evidence brought up by FLG could also be for the sake of FLG propaganda. As well as the anti-communism you mentioned. --Yenchin 00:24, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Laugh loud. It is amusing to read about your funny logic. Did ever Falun Gong news run monopoly in any area? If anything is questionable, feel free to raise. But it is not comparable to CCP propaganda based on the obvious reason. Since CCP has the possession of the evidence, it is hard to get the evidence of tortured people, and the exposed are just tips of ice berg. Look at this beautiful woman. Her face was disfigured by shock torture. After the torture was disclosed, she was killed. [34] Feel free to raise other questions. Fnhddzs 01:00, 1 May 2006 (UTC) Falun Gong has no money, no power to manipulate anything unreasonably.[reply]

So? Pot calling the kettle black. As for "hard to get the evidence of tortured people", since you admit it, then how could FLG media obtain reports from multiple prisons from multiple prisoners? Anyone with common sense would point out the stories are over the top and are mere propaganda. Yet I don't see anyone waiving the reports. So why whine over China's propaganda?

--Yenchin 05:54, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Another example of CCP's lie. Anybody here still remembers the June 4th, 1989 Tiananmen massacre? Where were you then? What did you hear about it? Tell you my personal experience: I was in mainland China but not in Beijing then. The CCTV broadcasted the video and told us No students died, ruffians first attacked the army and burnt the army truck. I watched the CCTV and everything seemed true. I did not understand why students were so violent. I did not know the truth until later I left China. I met my previous college teacher (was in same lab in China ) in the new country. He told me before June 4th night, he biked to the square to check around. Fortunately he returned early. After June 4th, he heard that the school across the street of my college (in Beijing) rescued five bodies back. You may wonder why they rescued dead bodies. Since they were evidence. Evidence will be erased if not rescued. He went in person to see the bodies. Very very terrible. Somebody was punched through by their bike and the body still connected to the bike due to the tank grinding. .... If this teacher did not tell me, I could hardly believe what was reported by western media. I think this background is important for our judgement of media creditability. Fnhddzs 03:58, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Red Herring, this has nothing to do with what's happening to FLG.--Yenchin 05:54, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A FALUN GONG DISCUSSION FORUM! Please, add new messages pertaining to editing the FLG article at the bottom of this page

Okay, folks, let's try to keep our edits a little closer to the topic of editing the article. Some of this is getting pretty far off track. CovenantD 04:23, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, we should stick to the article. For the article, our judgement of Xinhua and the CCP's, or Li Hongzhi's, Time magazine's or even the BBC's credibility isn't the issue. The issue is how to report the subject of this article. We can't exclude a source because we ourselves think it is in error or mendacious, or simply because we do not like it. If the source has credibility issues, those should be discussed at the source's pertinent Wikipedia article, which can be footnoted and the article linked to. It would be OK, I'd think, if there is a notable rebuttal to report it, as long as the rebuttal also is from a public source. --Fire Star 04:42, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, All (especially Fire star). that sounds reasonable to me. Fnhddzs 05:03, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Good. I hope this is upheld clearly in the future. --Yenchin 05:54, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Syntax error...

Normally I wouldn't complain about locked pages havin such problems, but the OPENING SENTENCE says "Falun Gong ... is also known as Falun Dafa ... is..." The blockage prevents me from fixing that. elvenscout742 08:33, 30 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well spotted. Says it all. Etaonsh 08:36, 30 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

'Crackdown,' 'Clampdown' and NPOV

Much as this NPOV editor allows himself considerable leeway for human empathy for the oppressed, 'crackdown' clearly suggests an unreasoningly peremptory oppression (you can almost hear the bones breaking!). Presumably a point came when the Chinese Communist Government felt that Falun Gong's ostensibly merely conceptual mass crypto-fascism risked actual consequences - this, their reality, is not touched upon in the article, and therefore, presumably, dismissed as collective paranoia - and clamped down on the movement, with the crude physical human consequences that aborting such a Leviathan, as it had become, would almost inevitably involve. Please bear in mind that many such 'dissidents' received warnings of the newly illegal status of their de facto cult, and are promoting the falsehood, which has infiltrated Western media (including Wikipedia), that Falun Gong is an entirely apolitical, innocent exercise craze whose following has merely attracted the envy of an irrational, totalitarian government. I prefer 'clampdown' (which is not, as one revert warrior sought to suggest, a 'misspelling' of 'crackdown'!). Etaonsh 22:09, 30 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Summary of where we are on the structure

A few days ago, I proposed the above structure for the main Falun Gong article. The following people voted to support that structure.

CovenantD 20:27, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
The Fading Light 9:10, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
90% . Fnhddzs 22:10, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Fire Star 01:20, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Tomananda would like to have two new sections added, Practices and Controversies about practices, falling right after the two pro and con Teachings sections.

Dilip rajeev would like to rename #5 simply Organization.
Dilip rajeev and Fnhddzs would like to keep Research into Health Benefits as a separate section.
Dilip rajeev, Fnhddzs and Mcconn would like #6 to be Chinese Government Crackdown.
Etaonsh prefers Clampdown.

I think that covers it in a nutshell. If I've overlooked anything, please forgive me. I assure you it wasn't intentional, just damn difficult to cull out of everything that people have written. -- CovenantD 23:42, 30 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I remember we like the word persecution, if I am correct. Thanks.Fnhddzs 01:15, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Infact, myself and Mcconn preferred the word persecution. Dilip rajeev 11:46, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I like "clampdown" myself but our North American friends may not understand it entirely. Another term that may be useful for our purposes is "suppression". --Fire Star 12:58, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Re 'crackdown v. clampdown:' am I correct in the belief that this 3-1 majority is composed entirely of those involved in the cult, and therefore clearly non-NPOV? Etaonsh 10:31, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To make things going, I am considering to compromise to use the word "suppression". Fnhddzs 17:58, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

'Suppression' isn't much of a compromise - it still seems to have unpleasant connotations, whereas 'clampdown' seems NPOV. If 'our North American friends' haven't heard of that, Fire Star, I suggest they need to learn the language of firm benevolence. Etaonsh 18:08, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So it's Persecution-3 and Clampdown-2, with Olaf and Miborovsky not expressing a preference that I recall. CovenantD 18:12, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm fine with the structure, while, as mentioned, preferring the term "persecution". I agree that research into health benefits should be a seperate section as it doesn't quite fit into any of the other sections. Mcconn 18:44, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Suppression is a legal term, as in "the evidence (or in this case the movement) was suppressed" so I thought it might be useful considering the CCP has outlawed FLG. Repression and persecution seem to have political overtones, but of the two I would prefer persecution. Prosecution is in many cases accurate, but not all, of course. Perhaps "described by FLG adherents as persecution"? --Fire Star 20:18, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Falun Gong teachings summary (Take 2)

A few days ago Mcconn was kind enough to write up a draft for the Teachings section. The link to the main article and the summary we agree on is all that will be left - the rest of it, which is pretty much a dup of the Teachings article anyway, would go away under the structure under which we're close to agreeing. I'm copying the draft here so people can start commenting on it. CovenantD 04:33, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Here is my summary of the teachings. I didn’t know how long or short to make it. I believe that this is quite concise and only touches upon the very fundamentals of the practice.

The foundation of Falun Dafa are teachings known in traditional Chinese culture as the "Fa" (Dharma), or "Dharma and principles" – that are set forth in the book Zhuan Falun. Falun Gong teaches that the "Buddha Law", in its highest manifestation, can be summarized in three words – Zhen 真, Shan 善 and Ren 忍, which translate approximately as 'Truthfulness (or Truth), Benevolence (or Compassion), and Forbearance (or Endurance)'. These are also believed to be the characteristics of the universe. Through adherence to these principles, Falun Dafa is practiced by improving one’s xinxing (heart nature) within daily life. Selfishness, fame, anger, jealousy, and all other mentalities at odds with the characteristics of the universe must be gradually relinquished while maintaining an ordinary life in society. In Falun Gong practice this is called cultivation. The process of cultivation is thought of to be one in which the practitioner assimilates himself or herself to Zhen 真, Shan 善 and Ren 忍. It is emphasized that only through repeated study and application of the teachings of Falun Gong can a person acquire a good understanding of their content.

Mcconn 18:12, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Falun Gong, with its crypto-fascist sentiments and denial, is blatantly an appalling latter-day travesty of the principles of 'Zhen 真, Shan 善 and Ren 忍, which translate approximately as 'Truthfulness (or Truth), Benevolence (or Compassion), and Forbearance (or Endurance).' Etaonsh 09:06, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please give me your definition for "fascism", as it seems you don't necessarily know what it is about. ---130.232.37.53 09:53, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I don't feel obliged to respond to opaque criticisms without explanations. Etaonsh 10:17, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Etaonsh, this doesn't seem like a good faith effort to improve the draft. Care to try without the sarcasm and blatant POV? CovenantD 16:28, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Etaonsh, you clearly don't understand what Falun Dafa is about. I suggest you take the time to read Zhuan Falun from cover to cover. I don't expect you will agree with all of what it says, but it will at least give you much deeper insight into what the practice really is. Actually, I suggest that all critics, or anyone who is serious about understanding Falun Dafa, read the book. It is the core of what Falun Dafa is about and is what practitioners study regularly. You really don't know Falun Dafa unless you've read it. Mcconn 18:20, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A FALUN GONG DISCUSSION FORUM! Please, add new messages pertaining to editing the FLG article in the appropriate section
Please remember that this isn't the place to vent our spleens in condemnation or gush praise for Falun Gong itself as much as it is to comment on the actual article content.

a bit of explanation why this article is problematic

hello, I'm kobi, I'm new to wikipedia so excuse me if i make errors here. I see we start to get the article into shape, but fairness, as usually understood, like putting in the two sides can't be applied here. because ever since the persecution started the communist regime started making so many lies. on the first month the newspapers and media were saturated with 347 articles on falun gong, while in the seven years prior to that, no one heard of any trouble and ofcourse people only benefitted from it.
also, you can't compare it to scientology or others, since falun dafa is not an evil religion or some cult.
so in context to this article: I think that criticism should belong in the persecution section, the chinese communist government's brainwash of the country or together with censorship of the internet and sources of information.
I really prefer no criticism at all. this is wikipedia. it's supposed to be factual. have you seen an article about a music band where part of the page is why some people don't like it?!
okay, thanks for hearing me out. I hope i can help you get into order with this :) Kobi_Lurie

This comes over to me as plausible hogwash. Of course Wikipedia articles include negative aspects of pop idols, where appropriate!: see Gary Glitter. 'I really prefer no criticism at all.' However poignant, this sounds evocative of the worst excesses of a totalitarian politburo! Etaonsh 09:18, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Totally agree with Etaonosh here. To say that criticism of the Falun Gong cannot be "factual" is hogwosh. It is also symtomatic of the totalitarian nature of the Falun Gong. Total control of message and image, with all kinds of sanctions for people who stray from the Master's approved message. Unlike Sakyamuni, who allowed his teachings to be modified and adapted to different cultures, Li Hongzhi demands absolute control over his teachings. Those who disobey him are threatened with punishment. The biggest punsishment is that a practitioner will lose the Master's protection and then be subject to all kinds of bad things happening. It's not unlike a Mafia protection racket. --Tomananda 23:16, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I think criticism is welcomed but cannot be groundless. You have to read the Falun Gong books first to have an idea. Otherwise you are critisizing something that does not exist. Don't be lazy. That's my personal point. Fnhddzs 23:57, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A Fresh Start?

I hope this article can be a fresh start. I like what was written in "Falun Gong teachings summary (Take 2)"
and think it was written well.
English is not my first language, so please fix phrasing or grammar errors.
I translated and used the hebrew falun gong article in wikipedia as basis for this, since I'm from israel.
I am also a practitioner, I read the books and I know full well what the system teaches.
so you can trust that this information is reliable and I hope I can help with that.
okay, here is what I propose: (let's keep it small and simple)

Your command of English is excellent, Kobi - it's not what needs fixing. What does need fixing is the need for a history lesson from the nations who liberated Israel from the Nazi concentration camps on the dangers of appeasement of and collaboration with subliminal crypto-nazi content, notably Li's teachings on homosexuality and racial mixing. Your 'attempt to wipe the slate clean' based on the Hebrew Wiki is a major regression and undermines and attempts to overrule many difficult pages of discussion and work here, which presumably you haven't bothered to read? And as a general rule of thumb, is it a good idea to seek correction from a smaller Wikipedia linguistic community, with its smaller intelligence volume, in a matter of universal interest? Etaonsh 10:02, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Falun Gong (based on the Hebrew Wikipedia article)


Falun Dafa, also known as Falun Gong, is an ancient spiritual system that originated in China, and opened to the public in 1992 by Mr. Li Hongzhi, founder of the practice.
The system emphasizes Truth Compassion Forbearance as its guiding principles.
Falun Dafa can be translated from chinese as "the great law of the law wheel".
[image: australian practitioners: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/he/4/41/Australia_practice.jpg]
contents:
1. description of the system
2. the Falun symbol
3. the persecution of the practice in China.
4. the response from international community
5. Falun Dafa in the world.
6. external links.

description of the system:
Falun Dafa is in fact a practice method of qigong. Qi-Gong practices are traditional chinese methods concentrated on the mind, body, and spirit using slow, gentle and meditative movements.
qi gong practices were and are very common in china and asia throughout all history.
these practices were originally called "cultivation-practice" (in chinese: Xiu-Lian) and they originally included not only a set of exercises but also a teaching of clear moral principles and virtues.

Falun Gong is a cultivation practice system. in addition to the exercises, it includes a moral teaching and calls on the practitioner to improve himself or herself, and to assimilate to the qualities of Truth, Compassion and Forbearance.
Falun Dafa contains a set of 5 exercises. four of which are in standing, and one of sitting meditation.
the movements of the exercises look somewhat similar to the slow and gentle movements of Tai-chi or Yoga or other forms of qigong.
the practice is defined as an hollistic overall improvement of body mind and spirit.
the exercises are integrated with the inner cultivation, and complement each other.
it is claimed that remarkable changes, mentally phsically and spiritually, can be obtained when a person cultivates himself according to the teachings together with the daily study and practice. (practice can also be translated as refinement)

Falun Dafa was first introduced to the public in 1992, by Mr. Li Hongzhi, often referred to as Master Li.
Mr. Li held a series of seminars all across China, in which he lectured and taught the moral principles of the system and the exercises.

in these lectures, Mr Li taught that practitioners should always aspire to act according to the principles of truth, compassion and forbearance to think of others before they think of themselves and to treat their personal interests and profit more and more lightly. Mr. Li also taught that the practitioners should not become monks or nuns like cultivators of the past but instead live among and be part of society, like every other man, to work, to be responsible for family and friends and be responsible to society. the goal of cultivation is to get rid of all attachments, and by doing so to reach a clear heart.

The practice in Falun Dafa is a popular qigong activity of the masses, with no formal organization, no name lists and no membership fees. the practice doesn't include religious formalities or formal rules.

that is also why it is difficult to tell just how much followers the movement has, the supporters of the movement say there are more than 100 million followers worldwide, of which 100 million in china alone. the chinese government estimates the number to be 10 million, whereas before the persecution started, a survey conducted by the chinese government talked about more than 70 million. during the years before the persecution, Falun Gong was spread from mouth to mouth in a very rapid rate across china. the chinese government at first welcomed the practice, and even gave a few proclamations and awards.
throughout the years falun dafa has receieved more than a thousand proclamations and awards for benefitting society and improving the moral quality of its people.

the system is always taught free of charge since it isn't commercial (doesn't have a goal of money), it is also not a philosophy, not a religion and doesn't have political objectives.
it is simple pure and clear and attracted many millions of people.

The cultivation in the system is guided by a number of books and lectures that the practice's founder Mr. Li Hongzhi wrote and edited. The main book for cultivation is called "Zhuan Falun" - turning the law wheel.

The Falun Symbol:
[image:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/he/8/82/Falun_emblem.png] the falun symbol (in the picture) is composed of the swastika sign in the middle, and around it four swastika signs and four taiji signs (yin-yang). the swastika sign is a symbol of the Buddha school and is known to human kind for more than 2500 years, and its meaning in the east is completely different from its meaning in the west.
in the east the swastika sign has symbolized for thousands of years good fortune, protection, infinity and more, while in the west since world war II it has a connotation to racism and genocide because the nazi party took it as its symbol.
the taiji sign is the symbol of the Tao school and it symbolizes the two opposites that complement each other, called yin and yang.

Falun Gong is Being Persecuted in China:
[image: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/he/0/0c/Persecution.jpg] in 1999, the Chinese communist government, together with Jiang Zemin, the then ruler in china, initiated a ban on falun gong and a widespread persecution began.

persecutions happened in china many times since the communist party took power,
in the cultural revolution it tried to eradicate people's faith in god and to eradicate religions and everything traditional. many millions of people died.
in 1989, in the tiananmen square massacre, students asked for democracy and the chinese communist party sent tanks and machine guns to squelch them. thousands died but the media inside china reported nobody died, and those were only warning shots.
CCP used persecutions and terror to stay in power, and wanted to do the same now.

Jiang Zemin was overcome with jealousy for the attraction falun dafa got from the public.
he got infuriated and mad and developed an obsession with falun gong. It sounds absurd and childish that a ruler of a nation would start a persecution out of jealousy but as a matter of fact it's true.
he said: "we'll eradicate falun gong in 3 months"
and gave the order: "destroy their reputation, ruin them financially and eliminate them physically".
He ordered the media to spread lies and defamation. in the first month 347 anti-falungong articles appeared in newspapers and in the TV channels, creating widespread propaganda and brainwash.

when practitioners went to appeal, all roads have been blocked, and police put them in stadiums. atleast hundreds of thousands were stopped from appealing, the exact number is not known.
policemen were forced to participate in this human rights violation or lose their jobs.
they started burning the falun dafa books, and arresting falun gong practitioners.
they torture and murder practitioners and try to make them denounce their faith.
in june 10 Jiang Zemin created the 610 office (called after the date 6/10). this agency's sole purpose is to eliminate falun gong. the 610 agency gets orders directly from the ruler of china and enjoys great authority that even surpasses decisions made in court.

forced labor camps and detention centers were built, and astronomical amounts of money were dedicated just to support the persecution of falun gong.
a tight censorship is achieved by the internet blockade and chinese people themselves were not sure of the truth as all they could hear was the chinese communist party's brainwash propaganda.


today, every citizen in china must sign a denouncement of falun gong (the so-called "repentance statements"). if you don't sign, you will be fired from your job and lose your income, or be expelled from your university or school. practitioners are fined heavy fines arbitrarily, and many of them are forced to leave home.

According to UN statistics [external link 1: http://pkg.dajiyuan.com/pkg/2005-05-03/ReligiousIntolerance-2005.pdf] the US government [external link 2: http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2002/13608.htm] and various organizations [external link 3: http://www.upholdjustice.org/English.2/AtrocitiesInChina2.pdf] such as amnesty and human rights watch [external link 4: http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/china02/china0802-11.htm], hundreds of thousands of people were arrested since the beginning of the persecution, and sent to "reeducation" in forced labor camps. the "re-education" is meant to make practitioners denounce their faith in falun gong.
those who refuse are subject to tortures including electric shocks, tying in painful positions for weeks, sleep deprivation, forced feeding of acid and other substances by inserting a tube through the nose, rape and sexual abuse in women, phychiatric abuse and injection of harmful drugs, and more horrifying acts.



one case of persecution:
Tan Yongjie, 27, severely burned with hot irons by police

On June 2, 2001, while Tan Yongjie was being illegally held at the Luobo Labour Camp in Guangdong Province, three police officers tortured him. First they beat him and tried to force him to write "repentance statements" denouncing Falun Gong. However, Mr. Tan did not say a word. Later, the guards tied him to a pillar. One guard heated up a rusted iron rod on an electric burner until the rod turned red, then pressed the rod against Mr. Tan's legs in over a dozen places while asking: "Do you still want to practice Falun Gong?" Mr. Tan was seriously burned. His legs shook and he cried out loudly. He was in so much pain that he lost control of his bowel functions.

They burnt him. They just pressed the iron rod into his leg twice, and afterwards they said, "If you want us to stop, you better sign these documents." And he never said a word during the whole time. And they just kept burning him, burned him a total of thirteen times.

The guards then dragged him back to his small cell and locked him in. He could neither walk nor sleep because of the pain.
Later, the guards ordered him to care for an orchard. They thought that with such wounds he would not be able to go very far, but he escaped. He jumped on a truck and arrived in Hong Kong on June 10, Later he fled to the United States as a stowaway on a cargo ship to California, eventually he made it to Houston and brought to a hospital.

this miraculous escape was what made this story known. many other cases cannot currently be heard.


the response from internation community:
[a demonstration in washington to end the persecution: image :http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/he/8/8a/Dcparade20jul01_1_big.jpg ]
in recent years the western world became more and more aware to the persecution of Falun Gong in China.
many reports were published by the UN and human rights organizations. in 2001 the american congress passed unanimously a resolution to condemn the persecution of falun gong, and calls the president of the united states to do his best to bring an end to the persecution. [external link 5: http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3a6609be0496.htm ]
beginning in 2002, a series of global lawsuits around the world started appearing. [external link 6: http://www.flgjustice.org/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=49]
as of this date, in 62 countries all around the world charging Jiang zemin and its accomplices - the main perpetrators and instigators of the persecution with crimes against humanity, genocide and tortures.

Falun Dafa in the world:

(add to here: mainly a skeleton)
After Mr. Li lectured in seminars across china, he went abroad to different places in the world thus spreading Falun Dafa to the rest of the world, making It available to all people, regardless of race, religion, or gender. the main book Zhuan Falun was translated to more than 30 languages, and you can find a local practice site almost everywhere in the world.
[pictures from canada, australia, germany, israel, greece etc.] [for example: falun dafa in israel: image: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/he/thumb/e/e7/Bereshit.JPG/800px-Bereshit.JPG]

external links:
"www.falundafa.org" the main world falun dafa site
"www.faluninfo.net" falun dafa information center
"www.falunart.org" falun dafa and art
"www.zhuichaguoji.org/en" world organization to investigate the persecution of falun gong
"www.flgjustice.org" lawsuits against the persons responsible for the persecution
"www.flghrwg.net" Falun Gong human rights working group

categories: alternative medicine | meditation | China:history

Response as per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falun_Gong#A_Fresh_Start.3F above. Etaonsh 10:43, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I REALLY wish you had read the process that we have agreed upon before submitting this huge thing. I find it distracting and very much in the way. I'm really put off from even reading it because it so totally ignores everything we've been doing for the last few days. CovenantD 16:23, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There is a huge problem with the first sentence "Falun Dafa, also known as Falun Gong, is an ancient spiritual system that originated in China, and opened to the public in 1992 by Mr. Li Hongzhi, founder of the practice." Is it ancient or founded by Li? It cannot be both. There is no independent evidence that FLG predates 1992, just Li's undocumented claims. --Fire Star 20:22, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Totally agree with Fire Star. Although Falun Gong draws on concepts and terms from ancient traditions, it also changes the traditional meanings that dervive from those ancient traditions. This has been well documented. Therefore the first sentence above is strictly POV.

Accoring to Falun Gong practioners, the practice and teachings are acient, but according to critics of the Falun Gong, they are new and unique mixture of Buddhist, Tao and even Christian techings, with some extraterristial conspiracy theory thrown in.--Tomananda 23:28, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A good question. The Falun Gong, according to Master Li, was not open to the public before. He also made the Falun Gong suitable for public spread: "however much you give is how much you gain" [sorry I can't find citation now.] So I think it is correct to say it is ancient. also it is correct to call Master Li the founder. Fnhddzs 00:38, 2 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

'Persecution'?

If any state sought to enforce any law or prohibition whose breach was widespread, the results would almost necessarily be messy. But to define this as 'persecution' surely strongly implies strong POV leanings towards the offenders? Compare: 'persecution of cannabis users.' Etaonsh 11:04, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Friend, I request you to go through the teachings of Falun Dafa. Then you certainly wouldnt compare Falun Gong with Cannabis Users. Both the talk page and the article carries stuff that is not even remotely factual. All teachings of Falun Dafa being available for free download, you could go through them and decide for yourself. Dilip rajeev 11:40, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If you think my aim was to compare Falun Gong with cannabis users you misunderstand me. But since you raise the comparison, Falun Gong is like cannabis users insisting on retaining shady, illicit baggage even where legal. Which some of them do. Etaonsh 12:00, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My sole intent was to request you to go through the teachings of Falun Dafa, first hand. Do you really think toturing women and children to death is enforcement of a "law or prohibition" ? Is torturing thousands to death what the civilized world calls a "crackdown"? Dilip rajeev 12:34, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Etaonsh: I think even cannabis users have human rights. Were they tortured or beaten to death or raped or harvested living organs? Persecution is persecution. Please do not hide it if it is committed. Fnhddzs 15:02, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. If Falun Gong practitioners were only fined or maybe jailed because of their beliefs, "clampdown" would be a more suitable expression. But the human rights violations against Falun Gong practitioners are among the most aggravated in the world. Besides, Falun Gong practitioners are not doing anything wrong, and their practice hasn't risked their own or other people's well-being - quite the contrary. "Persecution", with all its fascistic overtones, is by no means an exaggeration or POV. ---130.232.37.53 15:23, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A FALUN GONG DISCUSSION FORUM! Please, add new messages pertaining to editing the FLG article at the bottom of this page
This is not a place to debate Falun Gong and the 'right or wrong' aspects of it. This is a place to talk about the article. I don't see any kind of agreement on titles for the sections in question, just lot's of back and forth between skeptics and practitioners. I think Persecution is inherently POV. I think the only way to retain neutrality in the title is to go with something very bland and let the text speak for itself. CovenantD 16:37, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Here are a couple definitions from dictionary.com:
per·se·cute - To oppress or harass with ill-treatment, especially because of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, or beliefs.
per·se·cu·tion - The act or practice of persecuting on the basis of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, or beliefs that differ from those of the persecutor.
I don't see how using this term is POV. Maybe you can explain. This term is acknowledged by people from both sides of the fence as well as by those in the middle. It is what it is. I wish it weren't a persecution and that Falun Gong practitioners had the right to live in China, but they don't and we need to acknowledge that. Mcconn 18:01, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dear all, report to you one finding: I looked up the internet. I found there is a term on wiki Persecution of Falun Gong while it is redirected to this article (Falun Gong). Also the following articles mentioned PersecutionChina's Human Rights Record and Falun Gong [http://publici.ucimc.org/oct2002/8.htm The Practice and Persecution of Falun Gong: In Illinois and Around the World] [35] [36] Fnhddzs 20:41, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The State Dept. reference is to testimony before a House subcommittee, and even it declined to use Persecution in the title, opting for the vastly more neutral China's Human Rights Record and Falun Gong. The "Independent Media" article is actually written by 2 Falun Gong practitioners, and some of the lines in it greatly resemble the text that kobi provided for us. Near the end of that piece they abandon any pretense of neutrality when they implore readers to take a stand in favor of Falun Gong. Sorry, they both fail to convince me that Persecution is NPOV.. CovenantD 21:19, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I try to keep all the facts in mind when looking at an issue. I was impressed by the fact that FLG was larger than the CCP at its legal peak and was able to muster numbers capable of bringing down government. Its claims to be apolitical and non-violent are respectively questionable and asking too much from any government in that situation. The Chinese government's view that FLG represents some sort of political threat is hardly based on paranoia. Therefore it clamped down, at a point in FLG's development where the resulting conflict resembles some species of civil war, and as we all know, war results in casualties. I do resent the suggestion that I am trying to 'cover something up' here, from opponents who have repeatedly and deviously reverted and censored to cover up any suggestion that Li Hongzhi might be guilty of foolishly leading millions into a pointless, painful and bloody war with the Chinese government which will achieve nothing, or a return to the laws of the jungle and the unbridled marketplace. Etaonsh 21:43, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A FALUN GONG DISCUSSION FORUM! Please, add new messages pertaining to editing the FLG article at the bottom of the appropriate section!
There does seem to be a contradiction between FLG's apolitical public stance and organising huge public demonstrations. Most of us would define such protest demonstrations as inherently political, especially since they were directed at the party in power, hence the contradiction. At some point in the past this observation was in the main FLG article, but I don't think it survived the months of reversions. It should be mentioned somewhere in our sources. --Fire Star 22:07, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
A definite distinction must be made between the practitioners' efforts to secure their fundamental human rights (including freedom of belief) in contrast to a group seeking authoritative power and political dominance. It's mostly a question of semantics: Falun Gong could be termed "political" in the first sense but not in the second one. It is the communist party who is using violence against these people; all countermeasures can be seen as political actions, particularly because the oppressor is a political actor in and of itself. In addition, the Zhongnanhai appeal took place because the government had already beaten and abused nonviolent practitioners. It wouldn't have been such a big deal in a free country. I know that the concept of "human rights" in many Western countries is different from China, where a lot of people would argue that the state can withhold rights from its citizens without restraint, as if an individual didn't possess any "natural" freedom. I disagree with this idea, of course.
By the way, would you guys please stop branding useful discussions with that "Hazard X" tag. If we are to reach a consensus of definitions and terms, contextualization of disputed questions is not only beneficial, it is absolutely necessary. ---Olaf Stephanos 23:05, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. "This page is protected from editing until disputes have been resolved". If we don't discuss, is there an alternative to resolve dispution? I think 99.9% discussion so far is article related. I appreciate everybody's patience. Fnhddzs 23:13, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

--- The persecution has been exported out of China. Passports of Falun Gong practitioners outside China with Chinese nationality are refused to extend by Chinese Embassy. Falun Gong practitioners with foreign nationality ae refused visas to China and even other countries (such as Iceland) since they are blacklisted. Taiwan Falun Gong practitioners were refused to enter Hong Kong and put in bags in Hong Kong airport and sent on airplanes back to Taiwan. Australian Falun Gong practitioner, David Liang, was shot in South Africa [37]. U.S. Falun Gong practitioner, The Epoch Times technology chief Dr. Yuan Li got beaten in his Atlanta home When All Else Fails: Threats China's Fight With Falun Gong. Just present some articles. I understand we are to report instead of judge. By the way, it is worth mentioning David Liang's feet have recovered well through Falun Gong cultivation practice without hospitalization (hospitals had no way but cut his feet)[38][39]. Fnhddzs 23:08, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It makes no difference whether or not the Chinese Government began the persecution because of paranoia. It's still a persecution regardless of why the persecuter started it. Also, this is completely different from a civil war. A civil war involves war between two armys of the same nation. The persecution of Falun Gong involves an authoritarian dictatorship in an attempt to "eradicate" by any means necessary an unarmed spiritual practice, with no ambitions of political power. And as fnddzs, this persecution has extended beyond China.Mcconn 17:50, 2 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There is a difference between debated the merits of Falun Gong and debating the topic headings for the article. There is a difference between discussing the article and trying to win others over to your way of belief. I see lots of one and not enough of the other, which is why I've been putting the Hazard X up when I see a thread turn into something not directly addressing the article. CovenantD 19:10, 2 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A Suggestion

The Hebrew article has a section on The Falun Symbol. What about a seperate section on the Falun Symbol? Dilip rajeev 12:56, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is ok to me. Fnhddzs 14:58, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Getting Back to Structure

Just a couple of comments:

  • 1. Contrary to what's posted above, I do not prefer two separate criticism pages, one on teachings and one on practices. I much prefer one combined criticism page for both. Previously

I suggested some titles:

Criticism and controversies about Falun Gong teachings and practices
Criticism and controversies about the Falun Gong
  • 2. Has anyone mentioned that because there is so much potential text about Falun Gong exercises and other practices, there is a good argument for having a separate web page to allow full detail about that. I don't mean a separate criticism page (because at this point we really don't have that much text), but rather just a break-out page which would allow a fuller reporting on "practices" as opposed to teachings.
  • 3 Concernng the debate about titles for what used to be called the "crackdown" section, I feel strongly that the word "persecution" is extremely POV. To remind everyone, the idea of having a secton called "Homophobic teachings of the Falun Gong" was strongly challenged earlier for reasons of too strong POV. Surely the work "persecution" fits into that POV category and I think we must reject it. However, I am ok with either "suppression" (which rings true to a Western ear because of its political connotations)or "crackdown."--Tomananda 23:09, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"Homophobic" literally means "scared/afraid of homosexuals", right? Falun Gong says homosexuality is not in tune with the harmony of the universe. "What human society glorifies is not necessarily all good, and what human beings glorify is not necessarily acceptable to gods": that is maybe one of the oldest ideas of humankind. Therefore, it is primarily a question of natural ethics, not any kind of "phobia". Whether an individual believes that such claims are plausible (as such, or in relation to the practice system as a whole) is entirely up to himself or herself. Nobody's pushing you to agree with Falun Gong's teachings, and you will not meet with discrimination or violence on the practitioners' part because of that. We just hope that you would condemn the atrocities regardless of whether you disagree with some of the victims' personal values and beliefs.
On the other hand, the crackdown surely matches with the dictionary definition of the word "persecution", and it is therefore not a POV in the same sense. ---Olaf Stephanos 23:45, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Actually homophobia has a broader meaning. My dictionary gives: "aversion to gay or lesbian people or their lifestyle or culture." The way Li Hongzhi talks about gays amounts to hate speech. It is outrageous that he denies our humanity, talks about Gods eliminating us, calls us degenerates, etc. Although Li does not advocate violence against gays, his teachings can easily be used by others to justify violence against us. Furthermore, Li is ill-informed about homosexuality. He has several absurd theories about why we are gay (eg: postnatally formed bad things or mental illness) and does not seem to understand that a gay person does not choose to be gay any more than a straight person chooses to be straight. He also doesn't seem to know that homosexual behavior is commonplace in many different species. Yes, Li Hongzhi is a first class homophobe by any standard. He needs to outgrow his small minded view of humanity if he is ever going to be worthy of being called a spiritual leader. But then again he has a small army of volunteer disciples who pursue his political agenda of destroying the CCP and that's what he really cares about, so why should he be concerned about understanding human sexuality as it is? As to your hope that I will "condemn the atrocities"...the only problem is that much of what Falun Gong claims to be happening I don't believe to be factual. --Tomananda 05:09, 2 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I don't feel convinved that Li Hongzhi has a hatred of homosexuals as people, and also find the fashionable term 'homophobic' malapropos. But you are right to raise the issue of hatred and its consequences, and the problem here, as in Li's statements about race, is a failure to grasp the dangerous likely consequences of his high-profile pronouncements. If Li has at any point issued disclaimers, e.g., condemning racism and violence against homosexuals, they need to be highlighted in the article (in flashing lights!;D). But frankly, I find it hard to envisage any credible retraction once someone has cast aspersions on the ethnic marriage choices of others. Etaonsh 09:15, 2 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Criticism and controversies about the Falun Gong sounds like a good title to me. Concerning the crackdown section, how about this title: the ban of Falun Gong in China? As many have already pointed out, titles should be as neutral as possible. --Samuel Luo 04:01, 2 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

'Ban' doesn't sound so neutral - it sounds like an officialese understatement by the Politburo. 'Clampdown' evokes the tightening up on something that's been allowed to expand considerably, without saying whether or not it's a good thing. European terminology allows for this type of uncertainty. Etaonsh 08:30, 2 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As I mentioned in the past, we should use the term "the Falun Gong". Depending on the context, either "Falun Gong" or "Falun Gong practitioners" should be used instead. Practitioners don't recognize the term "the Falun Gong" and over the years media have seen that and have also stopped using it. As I've also said repetedly in the past, Mr. Li's lectures are given to practitioners, people who can understand his words in context with the whole system. The fundamental teachings of Falun Dafa are Truth, Compassion, and Tolerance, and everything we believe fits into that. Therefore I understand homosexuality in context with that. As I practitice compassion, I absolutely don't condone any voilence taken against homosexuals because of who they are. And I have tolerence for those who believe differently than myself. Mr. Li has also taught that we should treat homosexuals the same as everyone else. There is no "hate" in this. Mcconn 17:36, 2 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So the 'homophobia' which has been reported is a) Li being quoted out of context and/or b) by practitioners who have leaked lecture content to an uncomprehending world? Surely the organisation bears some responsibility for misunderstandings of this nature, and should issue disclaimers where appropriate? Otherwise it would appear that Li Hongzhi has inflicted a potentially dangerous dragon on his apparent enemy the CCP, and amongst the Chinese people? Etaonsh 17:52, 2 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"persecution"

Friends, I dont consider the word "persecution" to be inherenlty POV, that is the only term that could even vaguely describe what is happenning in China right now. The Word "persecution appears atleast 4 times in Resolution 188.

H. Con. Res. 188, Unanimously passed (420-0) by the United Stated Congress States:

"Jiang Zemin's regime has created notorious government `610' offices throughout the People's Republic of China with the special task of overseeing the persecution of Falun Gong members through organized brainwashing, torture, and murder"

Whereas propaganda from state-controlled media in the People's Republic of China has inundated the public in an attempt to breed hatred and discrimination;

Whereas the number of known deaths from torture has reached 422 so far, tens of thousands have been tortured while confined in labor camps, prisons, and mental hospitals, and hundreds of thousands have been forced to attend brainwashing classes;

Whereas official measures have been taken to conceal all atrocities, such as the immediate cremation of victims, the blocking of autopsies, and the false labeling of deaths as from suicide or natural causes;

Whereas women in particular have been the target of numerous forms of sexual violence, including rape, sexual assault, and forced abortion;

Whereas the campaign of persecution has been generated by the Government of the People's Republic of China, is carried out by government officials and police at all levels, and has permeated every segment of society and every level of government in the People's Republic of China; and

Whereas several United States citizens and permanent resident aliens have been subjected to arbitrary detention, imprisoned, and tortured in the People's Republic of China: Now, therefore, be it

Resolved by the House of Representatives (the Senate concurring), That it is the sense of Congress that--

(1) the Government of the People's Republic of China should cease its persecution of Falun Gong practitioners, and its representatives in the United States should cease their harassment of citizens and residents of the United States who practice Falun Gong and cease their attempts to put pressure on officials of State and local governments in the United States to refuse or withdraw support for the Falun Gong and its practitioners;

(2) the United States Government should use every appropriate public and private forum to urge the Government of the People's Republic of China--

(A) to release from detention all Falun Gong practitioners and put an end to the practices of torture and other cruel, inhumane, and degrading treatment against them and other prisoners of conscience; and

(B) to abide by the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights by allowing Falun Gong practitioners to pursue their personal beliefs; and

(3) the United States Government should investigate allegations of illegal activities in the United States of the Government of the People's Republic of China and its representatives and agents, including allegations of unlawful harassment of United States citizens and residents who practice Falun Gong and of officials of State and local governments in the United States who support Falun Gong, and should take appropriate action, including but not limited to enforcement of the immigration laws, against any such representatives or agents who engage in such illegal activities. Passed the House of Representatives July 24, 2002.


107th CONGRESS

2d Session

H. CON. RES. 188

CONCURRENT RESOLUTION Expressing the sense of Congress that the Government of the People's Republic of China should cease its persecution of Falun Gong practitioners.

According to Amnesty International:

"...Some practitioners have been detained in psychiatric hospitals. Those who have spoken out publicly about the persecution of practitioners since the ban have suffered harsh reprisals."

3Amnesty International Magazine - Jan/Feb 2003 Bernard O'Hear, AI China Coordinator, reports on Escalating state persecution of the Falun Gong

The term has been used widely in Academic Journals too. See, for instance, The article that appeared in The Rutgers Journal of Law and Religion :

http://www-camlaw.rutgers.edu/publications/law-religion/new_devs/RJLR_ND_66.pdf

The term persecution appears in several places in the article. THe title says " persecution of Falun Gong " Dilip rajeev 14:07, 2 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I object to the alien (to me) US Congress, even when unanimous, as is claimed, being used to decide an issue like this. I also object to academic journals being used in this way, having recently tried to follow a Wiki link [40] to one on a different topic, and found myself excluded by a subscription fee and examples of a level of content which doesn't seem to merit paying it. I have a long-term bone to pick with Amnesty International over its partiality towards exposing dissent outside its country of birth and allied nations - I emailed them recently on this very topic [41] and got no answer. And why have you started the same topic in a different place? - to hide/run away from things again? Etaonsh 14:43, 2 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ok. Let's try to give some examples in Europe. In my impression, I think European people are very supportive. Years ago several Ireland students (Falun Gong practitioners Zhao, Ming [42]; Liu, Feng etc.) were rescued from China's prison, by the efforts of the Irish government and private citizens including Ireland Head of State (or premier?). A book called "The Persecution of Falun Gong" was published in German by Dexheimer, ISBN 3-932273-85-0 in March 2006 [43]. United Kingdom: Lord Avebury, Lord Avebury, Vice Chairman and founder of the UK Parliamentary Human Rights Group was outspoken in a Statement on the Secret Concentration Camp in China [44] Fnhddzs 18:14, 2 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have met Lord Avebury, and once bought him a drink. But I since found out that his idea of liberalism seems to involve close relations with terrorist organisations - but, as with AI, in other people's countries. No matter how many Euro-sympathisers you cite, it doesn't alter the fact which seems to have emerged from this discussion that FLG has distinct right-wing political leanings which are not understood in an uncomprehending, racist (to the point of not really being interested in such issues) West - even at the highest levels. Etaonsh 18:24, 2 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Etaonsh: Thanks for discussion. First, Friends. I am trying not to dispute with you. I think that does not help me to try to persuade anybody. If you do feel so from now on, please kindly point out and I should adjust myself. I actually hate pushing others. I think I don't care who "win" the final title of the article. It is our group effort. I appreciate we can communicate here. The reason I am keeping talking here is just to fulfill my responsibility as a proud voter assigned by wikipedia. I think I am responsible to present some information I have learned. And I also have enjoyed the information you have presented. I appreciate it and learned a lot.

Second, go back to "racism". I think Master. Li discussed not only one race. In his fundamental book Zhuan Falun lecture 7 [45], he mentioned about "Asian Jealousy" and Jealousy is a very very serious attachment that each practitioner has to get rid of finally.

Later on I think one main word on race is [46] "From another perspective, the Bible said that Yahweh created man out of clay. In fact, what Yahweh created was one species of white people, not all white people. White people don’t all belong to one species of man—they were created by several divine beings. Yellow people were also created by several divine beings. And other peoples, for example the people of India, the ancient Egyptians, and so on, were all created by different divine beings. People believe that God created man in his own image, when in fact that’s simply how a divine being’s ability works—the man he creates is bound to be of the lowest part of him and the lowest level of particles of him, that’s all. Plainly put, it’s a particle at the bottom of the divine being’s foot; you could also call it a cell. I’ve told you in my Fa lectures before that, every cell of a being—humans, animals, plants, and so on—is in the image of the main body."

I did not see any racism. Master Li also mentioned something that one person in this life could be one race, in his/her previous lifes or next lives could be another race [sorry I don't have time to find citations now, so this may not be accurate]. All in all, I think he did NOT say any race is superior to others. In my understanding, every race has their unique characteristics. I remember you were not happy about some comments on white people. Sorry I forgot the details. I will try to look at your old edits. But anyway, I did not see any race is perfect in Master Li's teachings. Thanks and have a nice day! Fnhddzs 22:02, 2 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am quite prepared to believe in the possibilty that Li Hongzhi is not a racist supremacist, but the fact remains, as a visitor to this website, I found allegations that he cast aspersions on racial interbreeding which were nowhere clearly denied by anyone. Unlike him, I live in a multiracial community where such relationships are common, and accepted as normal. But we are far from perfect, and often lack, as a society, the Confucian virtues of civility and politeness, which often seem to shine out from our oriental visitors and immigrants. In fact, in the midst of this racial harmony, there is also racism, a racism which, I am told, can be particularly vicious towards those of mixed race and in similar relationships, an intolerance which can become violent and which is also directed towards homosexuals. In this context, we positively need disclaimers, and from the founder, Li Hongzhi himself! The sophisticated reader can happily conclude that no real enmity is intended towards interbreeders - it was myself, the non-FLGer, who kindly 'bent over backwards,' as it were, and surmised that Li might be referring to the astrological difficulties in classifying and advising their offspring. The sophisticated reader can, similarly, countenance the existence of an opposition to homosexuality which is based on something other than blinkered, narrow-minded hatred. But what you've got to realise, when addressing the public, e.g., on a website like this, is that the readership is wider than that, and the consequences potentially considerable. Etaonsh 23:07, 2 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Very well stated Etaonsh. I couldn't agree with you more. I've started a topic below on this very topic. --Tomananda 23:20, 2 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Racism, Homophobia and the Genesis of Hatred

The idea that a spiritual leader in the 21st Century would base his theology on racial differences is, itself, racist. Here's my idea of spirituality: all humans are of a divine nature worthy of respect. Even the Catholic Church teaches the intrinsic dignity and worth of all people. Individual differences such as race are superficial differences of form. Beyond diferences of form and name, there is a universal commonality of spirit shared by all humanity. Li's world view makes judgments about classes of human beings and those judgments are themselves based on superficial differences of name and form. When it comes to homosexuals, he doesn't even grant that we are human, but rather states we only appear to be human.

History has shown that the first step for spreading a philosophy of hatred towards an entire class of people is to deny their humanity. Li's teachings could easily form the basis for an extermination program directed against homosexuals, all in the name of "eliminating degenerates." As I have said repeatedly, Li's aversion to homosexuals reflects the same language of the American eugenics movement. In the name of building a better society, those academics argued that classes of people whom they considered "degenerate" or "unfit" needed to be delt with by the rest of society. Hitler used the American and British eugenics movement as his justification to eliminate gays, Jews and gypsies. Hatred is a learned emotion and it starts with ideas. Once you lose the ability to look at another human being...any human being...as your brother or sister, you have taken the first step towards systemized hatred. --Tomananda 22:55, 2 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Falun Gong practitioners have never resorted to violence even when they are beaten and tortured in China's labor camps. How would they endorse any kind of violence in society? In addition, Li has never stated that all humans are not of a divine nature worthy of respect. Nor has he ever claimed that any race is superior to others. According to Falun Dafa, any behaviour that is not in tune with Truthfulness, Compassion and Endurance goes against the characteristic of the universe.
I'll now speak on my behalf. I agree that it is dangerous to marginalize a group of people, and I know perfectly well the history of Nazism and the eugenics movement. I have always been an anti-racist myself, and I've never known any Falun Gong practitioners who would support racist ideas. In fact, I have repeatedly stated that the amount of interracial marriages, particularly between Chinese and Caucasian spouses, is probably more common among the practitioners than the general populace, according to my personal observations. Unfortunately, there's no statistical information available - nobody has made any studies on this issue. But it ought to be taken into account if we are to evaluate how Falun Gong practitioners have interpreted Li's stance on miscegenation. It is a part of today's society. It's normal. It breaks the link to the "main body" on a higher level, but this can be resolved. I see no racial discrimination or supremacism here.
As far as I understand, Falun Dafa's starting point is that what is truly good or bad can be evaluated only from a detached and non-sentimental point of view. Human sexuality is a difficult area, because it involves deep emotions and identity questions. Personally, I have chosen to live a totally celibate life for the sake of cultivation, at least for now, because I'm not married. But I used to have quite a lot of sex, and it is only gradually that I came to understand how important it is to rid oneself of lust in order to attain a more luminous state of mind. Cultivation is about returning to one's original, true self. It's inherently difficult. It's always like swimming upstream. Returning to what is truly good and virtuous will never conform to what one desires.
I can also say that I have absolutely no need to support any ideas just for the sake of creating myself a stereotypical and prejudicial template for viewing the world. I believe that Falun Gong impugns the ontological status of homosexuality and premarital sexual activity (among other things) for a good reason. I used to believe otherwise, so I know rather well where you stand. If I'm proven wrong, I stand corrected - that's no problem. Even now, I wouldn't demand other people to believe in Falun Dafa if they don't feel like it. Only time will tell us all whether or not there's really a Fa-rectification going on, etc. If Falun Gong is really true, there's no use to struggle against reality, regardless of how we evaluate the cosmos from a human perspective. If it's not, then the practitioners simply have to admit that we were wrong. For me, it's not a question of supporting a religion; I sincerely believe that Falun Gong's epistemological approach to reality is veritable. It's about natural laws, not moralistic opinions; this is the conclusion I have reached after observing the unparalleled changes that have resulted from cultivating by Falun Dafa's principles. It's not that I'd otherwise dote upon conservative ideas. And I know that many people don't agree with me about Falun Gong, and that's alright. Besides, we can never exhaustively resolve such questions in our discussions. I know that we all have valid arguments. But neither party can conclusively refute the other, and I hope we could all admit that. This the fundamental point I have wanted to make. ---Olaf Stephanos 01:08, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

--- --- As I said before, I have seen several pairs of couples (Falun Gong practitioners) from different races (yes, exactly Chinese/Singapore and white people also in my observation). In Master Li's teachings in 1998 [47]. There was a question from an audience: I have a Chinese girlfriend. Through reading the books, I know it’s not right to have an interracial marriage. I decided to break up with her. Teacher: "I’ve never said no to your wish to marry someone of a different race. That’s because this is a problem left to us by history, and it has nothing to do with you."

Also I think the teachings on interracial offsprings are oriented to practitioners or concerned with people who may wish to become a divine being through cultivation practice. But it does not matter to people who don't care about cultivation. Master Li does mention about something like the future human. I don't know when is that. But by no means, Falun Gong could ever have violence or have a discrimination on interracial offsprings. I remember he said something (sorry no citation now): the humans are all on the same level. I think it is good to have this interracial topic in the article as long as we provide a full report from both sides.

Just think what Li is saying here. Does it make sense that the existence of millions of inter-racial people is "a problem"? Is Li saying it's ok for you to be a an inter-racial child, but don't expect to become a divine being? Isn't that a double standard? Doesn't this thinking strike you as absurd? Do gods really have skin? And if they do, can't they change their pigments at will? What absolute nonsense it is to base theology on skin pigments. You might as well say only brown-, black- and blond-haired people will go to heaven, but red-heads will go to hell (or be weeded out in the fa-rectification.) By the way, I understand Li gets his hair dyed. Is that ok? --Tomananda 07:10, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
In Sydney lecture (as far as I can recall), Li's saying that interracial people can practice cultivation just the same. ---Olaf Stephanos 09:53, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Tomananda, yes, an interracial person can cultivate and return to its devine origin if s/he wishes. Sorry my last words may cause confusion. Thanks for understanding. Thanks Olaf for clarifying. Fnhddzs 17:44, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I had comments on homosexuality before since you know I have a friend who claims she is a gay. She is warm-hearted and willing to help anybody. One time she saw somebody dropped one thing and she fled to catch them and returned the dropped to them. I don't know any teachings on discriminating people with homosexuality, although I know practitioners should get rid of this. There are a lot of things to get rid of gradually or finally, as a practitioner, anyway. It is not easy, yes, like swim upstream. But there is nothing to do with non-practitioners. 146.151.118.209 06:13, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If you respect that lesbian friend of yours, you should share with her all of Li's teachings on homosexuality. If you have not done so, you are lying to her. --Tomananda 06:46, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Olaf: Interesting that you made this statement in the negative: "Li has never stated that all humans are not of a divine nature worthy of respect." What's important is that he has never said that they are, nor even come close. He seems to hate the human condition so much that he could never affirm it in such sweeping terms. For Li, it's all about making judgements and creating a feeling of "righteousness"...dare I say "self-righteousness"...for the practitioners.
You strike me as more reflective than many Falun Gong practitioners on matters of dogma, which I respect. And you certainly point out the bottom line in all of Falun Gong teachings: Li's Fa-rectification either is a reality or it isn't. You of course know where I stand on that question.
How many years or decades must go by before you begin to doubt Li's predictions? If I am correct that Li is a con man, I am sure that proof positive will come to light in time. He hides from responsibility well, but you can't hide for ever from the truth. Yes, it will be interesting to see how this plays out. I am afraid a great many disciples will be devastated when the real truth emerges. Instead of experiencing a great day of consumation when all the degenerated people of the world are weeded out and practitioners ascend into Falun Gong paradise, individual Falun Gong practitioners will eventually realize that Li's predictions are not true. I don't expect this realization of Li's fraudulent nature to happen all at once, but rather slowly over time. And eventually there will come a time when disillusioned practitioners will ask: how could we have ever believed in that man? I am a 61 year old man who has experienced many cultures and studied many religions. I expect to keep my physical body for some time yet...so please check in with me a few years from now and let me know how you are doing. --Tomananda 06:42, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Tomanda, your predictions on the future outcome of Falun Gong are off topic, and somewhat insulting. It seems that you're trying to insite conflict. Please try to have more respect for your fellow editors. Actually, I believe that the paragraph quoted above containing the following words indicates the Mr. Li does indicate that all humans are of a divine nature worthy of respect; "[...]And other peoples, for example the people of India, the ancient Egyptians, and so on, were all created by different divine beings. People believe that God created man in his own image, when in fact that’s simply how a divine being’s ability works—the man he creates is bound to be of the lowest part of him and the lowest level of particles of him, that’s all. Plainly put, it’s a particle at the bottom of the divine being’s foot; you could also call it a cell. [...]" In addition to this, the content of the following quote, also indicating human beings' devine nature or origin, is mentioned multiple times in Zhuan Falun:

We see that in this universe a human life is not created in ordinary human society; the creation of one’s actual life is in the space of the universe. Because there is a lot of matter of various kinds in this universe, such matter can, through its interactions, produce life. In other words, a person’s earliest life comes from the universe. The space of the universe is benevolent to begin with and embodies the characteristic of Zhen-Shan-Ren. At birth, one is assimilated to the characteristic of the universe. Yet as the number of lives increases, a collective form of social relations develops in which some people may develop selfishness and gradually their level will be lowered. If they cannot stay at this level, they must drop down further. At that level, however, they may again become not so good and not be able to stay there, either. They will continue to descend further until, in the end, they reach this level of human beings. [48]

Also doesn't the daoist concept of "returning to one's nature or orginal true self" through cultivation, which is also central to Falun Dafa, suggest that a human being's origin is devine? I think this is quite clear in Falun Dafa. Mcconn 15:34, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

'Master Li'

' I remember he said something (sorry no citation now): the humans are all on the same level.'[49](Olaf Stephanos? 06:13, 3 May 2006 (UTC)). In which case, wouldn't 'Comrade Li' be more apposite? :) Etaonsh 08:18, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, I didn't write that. But that's the idea. All the human society is on the same level: this plane is the greatest delusion. That is also the reason why people can enlighten. Of course, the amount of karma and virtue on a person differs, and each individual has a different inborn quality and comprehension. ---Olaf Stephanos 10:31, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Summaries?

The above discussions are benefical, but let's not get distracted. Who is working on what summaries? There should be one for the citicism/controversy section, one for the homsexuality section, and one for the persecution section. Are there any others that I'm missing? Has anyone taken on the responsibility to write any of these? If yes, please indicate so and perhaps mention your progress. If no, any volunteers? Mcconn 15:41, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mcconn, I'm beginning to think that you and I are the only ones concerned with progress on the article itself. CovenantD 17:07, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Before we set about producing summary content, we need to come to final agreement on the topics on the main page and which will have auxiliary pages. I think the focus on this point should be on writing just the summary content for those topics which will have break-out pages..otherwise the whole exercise will become too messy. Covenent, do you want to post something as a proposal summarizing where we are at? It should include the main topics, the sub-topics and the topic headings of break-out pages. We haven't agreed to have a separate criticism page just on the topic of sexual orientation and I don't think that is necessary. However, some editors may wish to write a sub-secton on sexual orientation from a Falun Gong POV to appear on the main page, which will be linked to the corresponding section on the criticism page. That's definitely the way to go for all concerned. I again ask (as does Samuel) that at this point we only have one criticism page with a title such as:
Criticism and controversies about Falun Gong teachings and practices
Criticism and controversies about the Falun Gong
Also, I never got a response from any editor on my proposal that there be an entire break-out page devoted to Falun Gong practice (meaning the exercises not the criticism). Do people agree with that? The reason I propose it is the main page should be kept as a reasonably short summary of major topics, and certainly the exercise component of Falun Gong is a big topic unto itself.
We have think in terms of overall proportion of the topics and which will be "big" and which will be "small".
If Covenant can produce a revised outline with just one criticism page for both teachings and practices, together with other break-out pages, their headings and the sub-sections for both, that would be great. I further propose that we give our selves a deadline for this starting task. How about 24 hours from now? --Tomananda 17:22, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
First thoughts;
I've tried several times now to summarize where we are in our agreement on the structure, only to have it bog down in "What is persecution?" and "Is Falun Gong homophobic?" discussions, so I'm a bit frustrated with the idea right now.
That said, it will take several hours to go through all of the discussion and try to figure out exactly who's agreed to what and how it all fits together.
Mcconn has already written a summary for the Teachings section, which still needs review and comment. It's been ready for over a week now.
There have been multiple votes already for a structure that has multiple pro-and con- articles, not just the single article that Tomananda suggest. Until we hear from those people (Fire Star, The Fading Light, & possibly Fnhddzs) I don't know that it should be unilaterally changed. And I still think that a single Critisisms and controversies article will be too large. So I don't see any consensus yet on structure. CovenantD 17:38, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I remember Samuel said "Criticism and controversies about the Falun Gong sounds like a good title to me. --Samuel Luo 04:01, 2 May 2006 (UTC)"

I think a separate practice (exercises) could be ok so we put on more details, as long as we report Falun Gong is a mind and body double cultivation system (both upgrade heart nature and change body). Currently the exercises are included in the Falun Gong teachings article.

I have a question on criticism on practices. Obviously, I think it is for critism/controversaries on things such as the awards (not teachings but not the five exercises), right? So the "practice" has a different meaning from exercises here. Could anyone figure out a new word for "criticism on practices"? Or you think ok? Or we have multiple criticism pages. Tomananda. I remember now awards and its critism are together. I forgot what other critism on things other than teachings you are considering? Maybe they could have separate names instead of using the word "practice". Thank you all for time and patience. Fnhddzs 18:12, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I thought I am ok for the teachings summary [[50]], except that now I just have one point: currently the exercises are within the Teachings article. So this summary would cover some exercises also? Maybe just one sentence such as cultivation of both mind and body[51]. How do you folks think? comments? Fnhddzs 18:47, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, I'm sorry everyone, I've had at best 10 or so minutes at a time to look in for the last few days. I hope to get at least one rough outline of a criticisms article done for you all to consider, perhaps tonight, or at least tomorrow. --Fire Star 18:50, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
We are not communicating well here! I've said repeatedly that at this point in time we do not need separate criticism pages for teachings and practices, but now Fnddzs is asking what the separate criticism on practices page should be called. We can make this task much simpler by considering the size of articles. Using that as a practical approach, I again ask that we have one page for criticism of BOTH teachings and practices and here are two suggested titles:
Criticism and controversies about Falun Gong teachings and practices
Criticism and controversies about the Falun Gong

In addition to that, I have recommended that a separate break-out page be created for Falun Gong exercices (or some other title) because of the length needed to cover that topic. I don't understand why we are having these debates in the abstract. --Tomananda 19:03, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Keeping the criticism and controversies page together

I've just gone back and re-read some of the discussion on whether there should be one or multiple criticism pages at this point. Covenant, it's clear that you prefer multiple pages but there is hardly a consensus around that approach. You refer to a "vote" on this issue, but in fact a decision like this requires consensus. Neither Samuel nor I adovcate for multiple criticism pages at this point. Maybe down the road, but for now the amount of content does not warrent two separate pages. I've said this repeatedly.

There was a separate discussion about what to do with the existing section called "Debatable significance of Falun Gong awards and recognitions" One of the editors..maybe you... felt strongly that this section should not be on the separate criticism page, but rather be part of the main article section on Awards and recognitions. I then said that would only be ok with me if there is agreement on the part of pro-Falun Gong editors to honor that as a separate sub-section, rather than delete it, which was what was happening during our revert war. If the pro-Falun Gong editors can't agree to that now, I argue that the "Depatable significance of Falun Gong awards and recognitions" section be part of a separate criticism page. Can we hear from other editors on this now?--Tomananda 19:26, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Thanks to all, we are almost there. Just let you know I can go either way: separately or together. Either a single article or a section. Fnhddzs 19:45, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fnhddzs: But what about the question of respecting a sub-section on "Debatable significance of Falun Gong awards and recognition" if it is going to be included in the main Awards section? It must not be deleted or subsumed into the larger section if, in fact, it is part of the larger section. That's one of the two issues I raise above.--Tomananda 21:44, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I think it should read "Disputed significance of Falun Gong awards and recognitions", which is the most neutral wording. In my opinion, this subsection should be a part of the main article. ---Olaf Stephanos 22:17, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Disputed significance of Falun Gong awards and recognitions is OK with me. But do you commit to defending the section against vandalism? You'll recall that during our last revert war it was vandalized frequently. --Tomananda 23:02, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I see your meaning. Tomananda. It's ok to me to have a subsection. But I have a concern that it may be much longer than the summary of teachings. Should we try to balance all sections on the main page to have the roughly same size? The current version also seems highly correlated with the confusion on Falun Gong’s teachings on homosexuality. I would report more on Falun Gong’s teachings on homosexuality as per our previous discussion, stating our argument that Falun Gong is always peaceful[I can find citation on this position], no discrimination intention and so on. Or give a link on the corresponding part of the teachings to clarify this. I think the wording may need to change. I looked at the San Francisco Resolution 66-06 [52], a lot of its text is crossed out. Kind of not official? I think it is totally fine to condemn the persecution but not to agree with the views of Falun Gong, though. I may need to check other citations. But the structure of having a subsection is ok to me. But I would wait for other editors on this. Thanks for bringing up so we could avoid war.
Who is it that just did the above posting? You need to sign your name. In any case, your posting did not really respond to my question. If we include the subsection on Disputed significance of FG awards and recognitions as a subsection of the main page article on FG awards and recognitions, I want a promise from the practitioners not to vandalize it. This is the second or third time I have posted this request, but without adequate response. At this point it looks like we may have a revert war after all. Either that, or we'll need to get a mediator.
--Tomananda 00:12, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I don't mind whether 'disputed' or 'debatable'. Fnhddzs 23:42, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Still no response to the big question! Regardless of what this sub-section is called, will you honor it or will you vanadalize it? It's interesting how silent the pro-Falun Gong editors are when I ask such a direct question. If we go into another revert war, it certainly won't be my fault. --Tomananda 00:31, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I posted the above. Although I agree the structure, I think the current content cannot be kept without change. I did some research on the San Francisco case Red Star Over San Francisco. I think the "homophobic" or "hate" is POV. Fnhddzs 02:05, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ Domocide versus genocide; which is what?
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