Talk:Kefir

Marco Polo

How long should unsubstantiated statements be tolerated? The story that Marco Polo tasted kefir during his travels has been present on this page for a long time without substantiation. If this claim is true, it should be pretty easy to prove, since Marco Polo's works are in the public domain. If nobody can pin this down, it's probably false. Many other web pages are now repeating that Marco Polo tasted kefir (with no more detail). I therefore suggest explicitly noting that this story is probably false. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.8.11.15 (talk) 03:16, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

• "Travels of Marco Polo" as translated by W. Marsden (1818) -- He talks about a wine-like drink made of fermented mare's milk which he translates it as "Kemurs." I'm afraid I can't pin it down better than that currently, but hopefully it will give someone else a starting point for some proper research. 76.196.236.118 (talk) 22:41, 4 December 2013 (UTC)Shay

Marco Polo observed the drinking of *koumiss*, not kefir, which factis fairly widely recognized by historians. - David Russell Watson

"Inventor"

• Can someone check into this Matt Fastow person who is claimed to be the inventor of this drink? The book that is listed as a source for this information is inaccessible to me, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds this a suspicious claim. bwmcmaste (talk) 04:02, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Is that red Bull link just an Add?

Unless I'm missing something that Red Bull link can be removed because it seems like advertising to me.

12:43, 16 April 2006 (UTC)~

In certain sites, I noted that kefir is sometimes also known as (Tibetan) Snow Lotus (Tien Shan Hsueh Lien) and/or Tibetan mushroom. Does anyone know if this is correct or not?

Kefir grains list - not SPAM

The International Kefir community kefir grains list provides access to real kefir grains, mostly free or for cost of postage. I believe that this is useful information, not SPAM. If this is not acceptable, then a Google link that helps people find free kefir grains should be given. Webaware 16:03, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Coconut kefir

If someone is looking for coconut kefir information than wikipedia is not probably the best place for it. It's spam. -- tasc ^talk_deeds 10:03, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

SPAM is unsolicited commercial information. A detailed description of how coconut water kefir is made is not SPAM. Kefir is broadly recommended as a "superfood", so many people with nutrition-based health problems are seeking information about what kefir is and how to prepare it. Some of these people (not a small number) cannot tolerate dairy, and are interested in ways to get the probiotic benefits of kefir without inflicting lactose or casein on their gastro intestinal tracts. Rather than providing a full description of these preparation methods (thus turning Wikipedia into a recipe book), I think it is better to provide references to existing information. Webaware 10:24, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Kefir is not known to be or contain probiotics, but some health effects may be attributed to kefir. Knorrepoes 09:19, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

A google scholar search with search terms "kefir probiotic" would suggest otherwise.Trishm (talk) 13:20, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Of course, probiotics can be added commercially to kefir. But that is different as stating that all kefir contains probiotics. And the definition of a probiotic is that it is a bacterial strain, so never a product.Knorrepoes (talk) 17:59, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Health benefits

BBC page on that. 86.136.252.198 01:02, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

The information of histamine reactions should be included, the article is all about the pros of Kefir with no information discussing the negative effect of fermentation on people who are histamine sensitive. If someone who is histamine sensitive ingests Kefir or any other fermented/lacto-fermented product they will have itch and hives and other reactions. I am one of those people (but still love my coconut water kefir because it makes my stomach instantly when it is upset). As well, this is not a subjective page. Nothing gets rid of skin pigmentation, age spots or moles that is not physical or mechanical intervention of some kind. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.67.247.92 (talk) 05:17, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Links to do-it-yourself resources

I'm not generally opposed to a single external link that has other DIY resources about making your own Kefir, but a link to such a site should not be placed by an editor who is obviously affiliated to this site, per WP:EL. It is about this site: http://www.webaware.com.au/ferment/finding_kefir.php . I don't know enough of kefir to judge the page, so I leave that to other editors. Han-Kwang 19:37, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

G'day Han-Kwang, we have a problem here as you keep putting up road blocks. The article is about kefir, a fermented food / drink, and kefir requires a culture starter for the ferment to commence. We used to have some links that helped people find where to get that culture starter (for free - not commercial!) but you took them away, citing WP:EL. This is not the first time this article has had this problem.

I provided a page on my website to act as a directory for finding culture starters, and added a link in this article, in an attempt to comply with WP:EL; I initially looked at using DMOZ, but it was too limited, so I created a page and added a user submission form at the bottom. Now you claim that I can't even do that, again citing WP:EL, because I am affiliated with the link. This is just getting weird, because the page in question is a directory of links to other websites - thus my "affiliation" amounts to promotion of other people's websites, from whom I receive no benefit.

I put it to you, then: how can we provide some information on acquiring culture starters for kefir from non-commercial sources without breaking WP:EL? And please don't now cite WP:NOT, because I would first assert that knowing where to acquire culture starters for kefir is basic information. Webaware 21:57, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

See conflicts of interest: "If it is a relevant and informative link that should otherwise be included, please consider mentioning it on the talk page and let neutral and independent Wikipedia editors decide whether to add it. This is in line with the conflict of interests guidelines." If another (established) editor besides you agrees with you that it is an informative link that belongs in this article and replaces it, I will no longer object. Han-Kwang 22:21, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

OK, will do. Webaware 22:32, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Finding Kefir Grains

G'day all. I have created a page on my website, detailing where to obtain real kefir grains. This page includes links to:

• lists of users who share real kefir grains
• email lists and web forums where people share kefir grains
• some commercial suppliers of real kefir grains
• some commercial suppliers of powdered kefir starters (hey, some people apparently like them!)

I've done this because too many Wikipedians want to remove any such links from this article, citing WP:EL. I personally think that information on how to find real kefir grains is important to the article, but I can't add the link to my page (above) because I'm affiliated - I made the page, it's on my website, Catch-22.

If you think that information on finding kefir grains is useful to include in this article, please add a link to this page to the External links section of the article. Webaware 22:42, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Honestly, I'm not too concerned about it either way, but I just thought I'd throw in my two cents. First, let me be clear: I'm not bashing your page at ALL - speaking as someone who makes a lot of unusual and historical foods and drinks, I think it's great that you're interested in sharing "rare" culinary ingredients. That said, I don't see any call for linking that sort of site on Wikipedia. Wikipedia isn't a how-to compendium. Anyone who wants to try making kefir should really pop over to Google (or whatever seach service they prefer) for step-by-step instructions or shopping needs. Imagine what the Bread page would look like if everyone who wanted to trade local artisanal grains or share their favorite recipe put a link on there, or if the Automobile page turned into a Craigslist-esque vintage parts swap. I realize you aren't running a commercial site and you're not trying to prey on people or anything, but your site just doesn't seem relevant to an encyclopedic article.76.196.236.118 (talk) 05:58, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

plagiarism

The first paragraph in the health benefits section is cut and pasted from two places in an article written by Edward Farnworth in the "Food Science and Technology Bulletin" in 2005. It's plainly copyrighted and is available online. This link may work: plagerized

If not check out www.ifis.org and search for kefir. I can't seem to figure out what to do about it.James.folsom 19:08, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Which article are you concerned with? I'd remove the sections and give this URL in the edit summary and talk page as my rationale, if it's true. I might summarize the passages and give the URL as a reference. Xiner (talk, email) 21:10, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to delete the plagiarism now.James.folsom 23:08, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Koumiss confusion

I'm removing a passage from the article because it appears to be from an author who is confusing koumiss production with kefir production. I'm placing the passage here in case someone can prove otherwise.

(Throughout history, kefir was kept and fermented in a simple leather pouch, never to be washed. Portions were removed for consumption, the rest remaining in the pouch, and fresh milk added.)

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by James.folsom (talk • contribs) 2007-02-05T10:04:11.

G'day James, I like the edit job you've done on this article - it sorely needed it! Regarding your comment above, I've heard this particular concept put about a bit in the kefir forums, particularly by a bloke who has done a lot of (amateur) investigation into kefir, Dominic Anfiteatro. Additionally, Ed Farnworth says this in his book, Handbook of Fermented Functional Foods: "It would appear from the oral tradition of kefir that fermentation of milk in skin bags as a way of preserving milk led to the production of the first kefir grains and started the long tradition of producing kefir." Webaware ^talk 01:48, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Work it back in there somewhere then. I honestly had never heard that in relation to kefir, but I'm not omnipotent.James.folsom 01:56, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

See Also section

Hi, I was wondering if someone could explain the differences between Kefir and Kombucha (and the various other substances) mentioned in the See Also section? Are they based on the same micro-organisms? thanks --Tomhannen 11:55, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I've removed mention of kombucha from the article, because it is quite unrelated to kefir. [[Kumis] is culturally related to kefir, as it was prepared and consumed in the same areas of Eurasia; however, it differs quite a bit in composition, with kumis relying mainly on Lactobacillus bulgaricus bacteria and Torula spp. yeasts. Water kefir or tibicos are more similar to kefir in terms of microorganism varieties, with some variance giving them better suitability to fermenting sugary water and fruit juices. Ayran and lassi are beverages prepared from yoghurt or cultured buttermilk, and are thus essentially the same as yoghurt in terms of microorganism varieties. Webaware ^talk 14:43, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Kefir is one of the main ingriedents in Lithuanian cold soup šaltibarščiai

USSR

What's with all the references to "the former Soviet Union" and "USSR"? I guess I could understand "the former Soviet Union" being used, but USSR? Maybe Russia?

hobbyists?

In the first paragraph of Making Kefir, the phrase "Kefir grains can be purchased or acquired from other hobbyists, see below" seems out of place... What 'other' hobbyists? And what does 'see below' mean? I couldn't find anything else related to this in the article. This seems copied from a DIY article or something similar, but I couldn't find it anywhere else on the net (maybe it's from printed media?). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Danielgrad (talk • contribs) 12:12, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

What is the origin of kefir "grains"?

It seems that many kefir enthusiasts feel that true kefir cannot come from kefir starter powder, and that to create kefir, one must use existing kefir "grains" (which are not actually grains, but a microbial culture). Does anyone know the origin of the kefir "grains"? Is it possible to form the "grains" from scratch? This article ought to address the origin of this substance. Photouploaded (talk) 17:08, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Matzoon is not kefir

Matzoon redirects to the kefir article, but based on the article, I don't think they're the same thing. Matzoon is an Armenian fermented milk. According to the recipe in Henley's Twentieth Century Formulas, matzoon starts with a bakers' yeast culture, while Bacteria in Country Life states it has unique bacteria. In either case, the redirect should be removed. 75.57.125.155 (talk) 01:21, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, Matzoon is synonymous with yogurt (matzoon is the Armenian word, while yogurt is the Turkish word). But yeah, you're right, I don't think it's the same as kefir. 136.152.145.160 (talk) 11:29, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

life cycle info

I was wondering about upkeep of the grains- is it possible to kill them if u do not provide food (sugars) for a long time!?!?!. Whats a reasonable time to go with out food, and optimal storage temp. Do they go bad? Is raw milk ok to use (or pros and cons or raw milk). It peak conditions (and what are they) how long can you expext a doubling in size (amount) of the grains. thanks. Cilstr (talk) 03:59, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Mistake in Culinary uses - section?

In there, it says that kefir is the main ingredient of the "Okroshka" - soup, while on the Okroshka page, it says that some people just like to add a spoon of kefir on top, and the primary ingredient is kvass. 84.250.37.116 (talk) 18:01, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

'jogurt' and kefir mixup

In Southern Slavic countries kefir is known as Jogurt, (because of the name many people think it's yogurt, but it's not)...

I'd like to correct a statement made in the article. Namely yoghurt is either 'jogurt' or 'kiselo ml(ij)eko' (sour milk), kefir is kefir. Quoted text is simply not true...

Name origin - Arabic seems dubious

Does anyone know where the word "kefir" came from and what it originally meant?\ 75.85.81.0 (talk) 10:18, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Whatever it is, it is not of Turkish origin. Somehow the page repeats the mistake that "kefir" comes from the word "keyif" (loanword from arabic meaning "enjoyment") in Turkish, but this etymology is definitely wrong (no comparable -ir ending in Turkish words). I think that part shoould be corrected. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.175.193.61 (talk) 15:44, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

The supposed Arabic etymology has been added, sourced by a health care professional saying, "It is thought to originate from the Turkish word "Keif" meaning "good feeling", for the sense of well-being experienced after drinking it." Looks like he's just passing on something he overheard rather than researched it in any way, nor does his health care background make him an authority in any manner. --Ronz (talk) 15:52, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

The other source states it is of Russian origin, as does http://oxforddictionaries.com, http://dictionary.reference.com, http://www.merriam-webster.com. --Ronz (talk) 14:17, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/kefir states the Russian is likely from the Turkish.

Until someone can provide better sources, the Arabic theory seems to be mistaken. --Ronz (talk) 14:23, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Removed 'probiotics' sentence.

According to all definitions of probiotics these are well characterised strains of bacteria. Therefore a product as such can never be a probiotic, but a product may contain a probiotic. As kefir is a complex product with thousands of recepies, it can never be considered a probiotic product. Some kefir products on the market may have a probiotic strain added, so it is not impossible to have a kefir with probiotics. Any 'wild' type of kefir does contain many micro-organisms, but as is not known which are added, they can never be probiotics as the definition state that they are well defined strains with a proven health effect. Also, a probiotic product, basically is a health claim according to EFSA, so to call something probiotic, you have to have done all kinds of clinical tests. This can never be done wioth the thousands of kefir variations that exist worldwide...Knorrepoes (talk) 15:05, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Freezing or storing Kefir?

Sometimes I need / use a lot of kefir, more than can conveniently be made in a day. I'd like to make it ahead of time and store it up for the high-use times, but I need the active cultures in it to be alive when I serve it. Do you know if this is possible? I wondered if freezing it in sealed containers would work, or if it'd be better to dry it in an air dryer and then freeze the dried stuff until I need to re-constitute it for use?

98.64.76.196 (talk) 04:12, 27 January 2011 (UTC)Nancy

Nothing to do with wikipedia, but see the sections on resting and storing kefir grains here:

http://users.sa.chariot.net.au/~dna/Makekefir.html#resting-kefir-gains —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.254.31.36 (talk) 01:49, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

what kefir cultures eat

This article doesn't do a good job at explaining exactly what kefir cultures eat. I'm understanding from the article that they eat sugar, but there seems to be a myth that they only eat lactose and this is a misunderstanding that needs to be clearly tackled.

I hate to burst your bubble, but lactose IS sugar. It is a disaccharide, and as far as I know, the only type of sugar in milk.--75.80.43.80 (talk) 02:40, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

what is the size of a walnut in this sentence?

"Kefir grains contain a water-soluble polysaccharide known as kefiran, which imparts a rope-like texture and feeling in the mouth; it ranges in color from white to yellow, and may grow to the size of walnuts." Does the polysaccharide grow to the size of a walnut? or a kefir grain? I found the opening of the article confusing as I did not think kefir was made from grain. The word "grain" is sort of explained later. --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 21:41, 8 March 2013 (UTC)