Talk:List of soap opera villains

Deleted Sources

I thought I'd better point out that some of the characters and sources from the Coronation Street, EastEnders and Emmerdale sections appear to have been removed or deleted. I don't know whether this was intentional, deliberate vandalism or if it was an accident but I thought I should flag it up.82.47.191.23 (talk) 13:19, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

I've reverted this. I would have noticed at some point. –anemoneprojectors– 21:31, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Sorry. I asked because I wasn't sure whether the removals were intentional or not.82.47.191.23 (talk) 00:26, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Also some other characters had been added but without sources to confirm them. I've removed the unsourced characters.82.47.191.23 (talk) 21:24, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

I have also been looking at this page and noticed the deletion. The ones that were deleted I believe do belong on the list especially Ian Beale from Enders. Also I think some more should be added such as more historic soap bad boys like Ray Langton from Coronation Street or Tom Merrick from Emmerdale but how would I go about sourcing them? Do you have to find a ref that says "Villain"? And in the first few months of Home and Away Donald Fisher was a villain, trying to get Bobby sent down by wanting white lies told, threatening Tom Fletcher with hell due to his position and being insulting to pupils at the high school. He did mellow later on but was originally a villain. Benny1982 (talk) 21:32, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

If you have any source, online or from publications, i.e. books or magazines, referring to them as a "villain" and they can be added. So yes, if you have a source calling them that then you can add Ray, Tom, Fisher etc. because they were villains once even if they weren't during their later years on their respective shows. 82.47.191.23 (talk) 00:26, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

I am not very good at adding sources to Wikipedia articles with the number next to the info and such but here is a link to the site which lists Don as an original villain. Back to the bay forum http://backtothebay.net/features/mpc08-2135.shtml He is No 32 in the list and described as a real villain in the early years. Benny1982 (talk) 17:27, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't think that website can be used as it is a fansite. See the Australian soaps section at the top of this page and it will tell you why it can't be used.82.47.191.23 (talk) 20:45, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

When searching for sources for the list - avoid websites such as backtothebay, corrieblog, corrieupdates, emmerdaleorg, perfectblend, walfordweb or any external wikis and blogs etc. Instead search Google's news archives, thefreelibrary, Highbeam, Questia, newspaper websites. Anything with acceptable editorial. You cannot go wrong really, the IP contributor has done a grand job at finding more additions.Rain the 1 20:53, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks fr clarifying. If a fansite lists them as a big villain but it is not in the news archives then they still cannot be added then? I do have some more Enders characters who like Fisher from H&A belong on the list (Frank Butcher, Jake Moon) but it is finding a ref in the free library. It seems a good site to look for soap villains so I will use thefreelibrary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Benny1982 (talk • contribs) 19:23, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Edit notice

I've just created Template:Editnotices/Page/List of soap opera villains in the hope that it will stop some of the unconstructive edits to this page. –anemoneprojectors– 11:05, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

You could always protect the list. Warn & Block the disruptive lot. That will help a lot.Rain the 1 17:45, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes that too, if this doesn't help :-) –anemoneprojectors– 17:16, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

I really think a weeks semi-pp on this list would be really beneficial as there is too much going on and no edit summaries. Anyone who needs to edit should probably consider creating an account.Rain the 1 20:46, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

The majority of IP edits are good ones, and the main unconstructive editor is already autoconfirmed, so it wouldn't make much difference at the moment, really, I think. –anemoneprojectors– 21:10, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

EastEnders

This list is very wrong. There are quite a few characters on that list that just don't belong.

Ronnie and Roxy, for a start.

Den Watts, Phil and Grant Mitchell and even Sean Slater aren't even proper "villains" either, more like anti-heroes.

Dennis Rickman, too, was an anti-hero type character but by the end of his stint he was portrayed as a hero more than anything.

Mandy and her mother don't belong on the list.

Tariq, a villain?!

Max and Jack aren't villains in any sense. Neither is Jake Stone. Cheating or being promiscuous doesn't make a character a villain.

Janine's grandmother, Lydia Simmons, wasn't a villain.

Billy was a bit of a bully at that start but those days have long since passed.

The list should be ammended because it doesn't offer a true representation of the aforementioned characters. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.11.180.235 (talk) 22:12, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

See the above section, #Roxy Mitchell and tabloid sensationalism. If someone has been described as a villain, or as evil or bad, then we include them on this list. This is so that personal opinions of editors aren't taken into consideration - only reliable sources are. –anemoneprojectors– 16:41, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

This is absolute madness. Roxy Mitchell is NOT a villain, for starters. Let's get this straight, the definition of a villain is a '. A wicked or evil person; a scoundrel' or 'a dramatic or fictional character who is typically at odds with the hero'. Just listing people because they are described as 'bad boys' or because a tabloid might overhype something is ridiculous and makes Wikipedia look bad. Complete and utter folly from some editors.--AngieWattsFan (talk) 03:13, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Being bad

Should characters described as "bad" be included here? As an IP pointed out, there is a difference between a "bad boy" and a villain. Actually I was recently thinking that we should only include characters that have been called a villain, or villainous. –anemoneprojectors– 23:53, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

I agree with you. You get characters labeled bad and are far from the villain type.Rain the 1 00:11, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

And the bad boy character is different to the villain. Will take some time to remove "bad" characters from here, but I don't mind doing the work. –anemoneprojectors– 00:48, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Exactly. Many soap characters are serial cheats and get tagged as a soap "bad boy". But that does not entitle them to title of villain. If you do not mind removing them. Will anyone else be interested in commenting here though?Rain the 1 14:07, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

How about being called "a wicked woman" like Janet Green from All My Children? –anemoneprojectors– 11:12, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

I am not sure. Wicked and evil but bad though. How about Saul Bennett, he was named one of Home and Away's "worst ever baddies". Should he be added?Rain the 1 18:17, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

I think there's a difference between "baddie" and "bad boy", and between "bad guy" and "bad boy". Maybe "bad" and "bad boy" shouldn't be allowed but "baddie" and "bad guy" should. Look at the first paragraph of villain... bad boys are rogues, but not villains, but the rest are villains. –anemoneprojectors– 18:52, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

See you have got a good handle on this list. I'll have a look around for more like it.Rain the 1 19:01, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

EastEnders villains.

I have made changes to the EastEnders villains sections based on the reliable source which is here:http://www.bbc.co.uk/eastenders/imagegalleries/characters/villains-gallery.shtml. This will take into account changes since the website in 2011 (but there are only a handful of new villains since then). I hope everyone agrees but this is on the only reliable source in regards to villains on the show. Remember a villain is (according to http://www.thefreedictionary.com/villain) 1. A wicked or evil person; a scoundrel. 2. A dramatic or fictional character who is typically at odds with the hero. Having people like Roxy Mitchell is risible. If a source says that someone like Roxy is a villain, then the source is wrong. If the source doesn't even refer to someone as a villain but uses words like 'bad boy' then they are not a villain and should be on the page. If you think someone is a villain, who is not described as a villain, you should give an example of the things that they have done to constitute themselves as one and it should be debated on the 'talk' page. Comprehendo? --AngieWattsFan (talk) 03:24, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

No you have not.Rain the 1 03:28, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Oh now you have. I fail to see why you waltzed in and took what would have appeared to be the final say. Wikipedia, team effort, collaboration.. you get the picture. At least people should do. If a source accepted as reliable is tagging these characters as villains then it is fair game IMO. Who are you to say what is okay. I like how you came here with your pet dictionary. No. And as for using bbc.co.uk in your argument. It is the last resort source I would use. As with any official / strongly affiliated website. It is a primary source.. but and we continually look for them other third party sources.Rain the 1 04:08, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

I have waltzed in because of your profound lack of competence. I have looked at the sources and some of them do not define these characters as villains at all. If a website said that David Cameron was a fascist and you used it on Wikipedia would that be fair game in your opinion? I am allowed to define what is okay because I am a lifelong viewer of the show and I am using the dictionary definition of the word not using the judgement of someone who does not know what they are talking about. Understood?--AngieWattsFan (talk) 04:16, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

I have. Ian, Lucy and Roxy? Villains? Must be mad!--AngieWattsFan (talk) 03:49, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Well without thinking too much I recall Ian pulling a very questionable stunt to ensure Mel married him. Lucy was trouble the when MS took the role and... well need I say anymore.Rain the 1 04:08, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

No justification for Roxy. Ian was clearly desperate and lied in the rush of the moment. Kirsty Branning lied that she was pregnant in order to convince Max to stay with her? Lucy was a badly behaved teenager, that's NOT a villain. That is not like bloody Nick Cotton or Stella Crawford or Archie Mitchell! It is an absurd comparison. Lauren Branning run over her father? You are being deliberately obtuse.--AngieWattsFan (talk) 04:13, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Villains come in all shapes and sizes. Some are naughtier than others. Simple concept.Rain the 1 04:48, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

This could be very easily resolved by either continuing the discussion, and gaining consensus (which, if you are correct, will be quite easy), or providing your own verifiable, reliable source to support your opinion. Please see WP:NOR for the details. Your wish to be factual is commendable, but you should participate in gaining WP:CONSENSUS to remove cited information.