Shervinsky re-inserted the paragraph into the article. Anyone else have an opinion on it? It still seems to be a bit of synthesis.--'''[[User:Lvivske|Львівське]]''' <small>([[User talk:Lvivske|говорити]])</small> 21:26, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
Shervinsky re-inserted the paragraph into the article. Anyone else have an opinion on it? It still seems to be a bit of synthesis.--'''[[User:Lvivske|Львівське]]''' <small>([[User talk:Lvivske|говорити]])</small> 21:26, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
:Lvivske, let alone the paragraph and stop to demonstrate your lack of knowledge. Have you read the "[Constitution]" anyway? Here is an excerpt: Дивный и нεпостижимый в сүдбахъ своих Б[о]гъ, милосεрдный в долготεрпѣнії, пр[а]вεдный в казни, яко всεгда от початку видимого сεго свѣта на пр[а]вдномъ правосүдія свого мирилѣ, εдны Панства и Nароды возвышаεтъ, другіε за грѣхи и бεззаконія смираεтъ, εдны порабощаεт, другіε свобождаεтъ, εдны возноситъ, другіε низвεргаεтъ, такъ и nародъ валεчный '''стародавный козацкий, прεждε сεго имεнованый козарскій''', пεршъ прεвознεслъ былъ славою нεсмεртεлною, обширнымъ владѣніεмъ и ωтвагами рицεрскими, которими нε тылко окрεстным nародомъ, лεчь и самому восточному панству на морѣ и на зεмли страшεнъ былъ такъ далεцε, жε цεсар восточный, хотячи оный сεбѣ вѣчнε примирити, сопряглъ малжεнскимъ '''союзомъ с[ы]нови своεму дочку кагана, то εст князя козарского'''. I hope, this issue is now over. --[[User:Shervinsky|Shervinsky]] ([[User talk:Shervinsky|talk]]) 22:41, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
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Kiev Pechersk Lavra did not officially support little identity
It is mistake to say about Kiev Pechersk Lavra as a supporter of "identity". There is only one (but not 3) source by Miller, saying about one local orthodox hierarch (who was not Kiev Lavra Representative), probably archimandrite Innokentiy who wrote a "Synopsis". However, Miller concluded that "Synopsis" author was aiming to show motivation to Moskovy King to continue his war with Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth as well as to make easier the process of Cossack Hetmanate elite incorporation to Russian society. Shervinsky, there is no sources allowing to say the Kiev Lavra Orhtodox to support the Little Russia identity. --Andrux (talk) 12:12, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
All this doesn't change things. Историк Михаил Дмитриев отмечает, что «Синопсис» не может быть признан конструкцией ad hoc и сознательным сотворением некой востребованной временем политической идеологемы. Указывая на долгую традицию выступлений за единство Руси среди православных книжников, он считает Синопсис не стартовой, а промежуточной и сравнительно поздней вехой в формировании концепции единого русского народа (Дмитриев М. В. Этнонациональные отношения русских и украинцев в свете новейших исследований // Вопросы истории, № 8. 2002. — С. 154—159). Besides Gizel many other archimandrites and monks wrote about the Little Russian people, for example Yelisey Pletenetsky. The image and the text above is legitimate. --Shervinsky (talk) 12:21, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Currently, I'm talking to you personally on behalf of your personal objections. This is an excerpt. Your pretension not to know Russian raises doubts about your overall sincerety. --Shervinsky (talk) 12:46, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Provide a reference to publication of Yelisey Pletenetskiy. What do you mean by saying something on "on behalf of your personal objections"? What do you mean by applying words "excerpt" and "sincerety"? --Andrux (talk) 13:02, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
On behalf of Pletenetsky the Print Yard of Kievan Pechersk Lavra was founded (as well as Radomysl paper mill) where many Orthodox works were published of Job Boretsky, Pamvo Berinda, Lavrentiy Zizaniy, Petro Mohyla, Ivan Vishensky, Isaya Kopinsky, Tarasiy Zemka, Zakharia Kopystensky (who was also Lavra archimandrite) etc. All of them polemicized with Uniates and Catholics and many wrote about the Little Russian people. You can get a good overview here, a lots of is said about the term Little Russia. Note that many of the mentioned authors were directly connected to the Lavra, not just via publication in its Print Yard. --Shervinsky (talk) 13:47, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Why does every Russian wiki-paster make this presumption that everyone knows who to speak Russian on English wikipedia? "Your pretension not to know Russian raises doubts about your overall sincerity." SERIOUSLY? --Львівське (говорити) 15:20, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Living in Ukraine is different than living in Canada, dude. If somebody can't speak Russian in Ukraine, he hardly becomes Doctor of Medicine since most of the professional literature is in Russian. --Shervinsky (talk) 15:32, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Who told you I am living in Ukraine and got my PhD there, dude? Moreover, ALL professional literature is published in English, not in Russian, at least in medical science. This is not polite at En-Wiki to use other then English in the discussions. Concerning this publication you provided previously, I was not able to find there anything regarding the Little Russians identity.--Andrux (talk) 17:11, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've heard the "you obviously know Russian" argument twice this week, it's annoying me and a cop out from having to verify sources. Was I a bit general? Sure, sue me.--Львівське (говорити) 17:45, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, if you live in Sweden, I believe you, that the professional literature THERE ist in English. In Ukraine however, the majority doesn't have that level of English and reads mostly Russian literature. If you read the text carefully, you probably noticed that the historian tells not only about the reintroduction of the term Little Russia but also about the gradual development of the understanding by Little Russians of their close cultural ties with Grand Russians. This is nothing else than development steps of the Little Russian identity. And numerous people connected to Kiev Pechersk Lavra had a big role in it. --Shervinsky (talk) 17:36, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This is just a nit-pick FYI thing, but 'grand russians' aren't a thing; the 'greater' part emphasizes their territory being a grater distance from Constantinople, not their stature. --Львівське (говорити) 17:48, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I was about to start tagging several references in need of English translations of the relevant passages. I'll download the PDF and try to wade through it some time today (if I can get to it). I'll let you know as soon as I find the info AND can verify that it is an accurate interpretation. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:34, 4 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
As a PS, thanks for finding the English language version. Shervinsky should be using the English language references, not their translations into Russian, in the first instance. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:40, 4 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I removed this passage, aside from the rampant WP:OR and POV pushing going on, but Plokhy] page 38 makes no mention of what's going on in this text. It mentions the Khazar myth in passing, nothing more. I suggest info on the Khazar myth be put back in the article as an 'alternative theory' of origin, but as it stood this text was too rotten to keep without re-writing entirely to keep within what plokhy actually says--Львівське (говорити) 08:40, 20 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well Serhii Plokhii is a reputable source, says that Divovych argued with themes taking from 'Mazepa's days', including "the Khazar myth, which established the separate ethnic origins of the Cossacks," and that Hlukhiv "made no mention of the Khazar origins of the Cossacks, which established Ukraine's distinct, non-Rus' origins."--Львівське (говорити) 23:03, 23 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Lvivske, let alone the paragraph and stop to demonstrate your lack of knowledge. Have you read the "[Constitution]" anyway? Here is an excerpt: Дивный и нεпостижимый в сүдбахъ своих Б[о]гъ, милосεрдный в долготεрпѣнії, пр[а]вεдный в казни, яко всεгда от початку видимого сεго свѣта на пр[а]вдномъ правосүдія свого мирилѣ, εдны Панства и Nароды возвышаεтъ, другіε за грѣхи и бεззаконія смираεтъ, εдны порабощаεт, другіε свобождаεтъ, εдны возноситъ, другіε низвεргаεтъ, такъ и nародъ валεчный стародавный козацкий, прεждε сεго имεнованый козарскій, пεршъ прεвознεслъ былъ славою нεсмεртεлною, обширнымъ владѣніεмъ и ωтвагами рицεрскими, которими нε тылко окрεстным nародомъ, лεчь и самому восточному панству на морѣ и на зεмли страшεнъ былъ такъ далεцε, жε цεсар восточный, хотячи оный сεбѣ вѣчнε примирити, сопряглъ малжεнскимъ союзомъ с[ы]нови своεму дочку кагана, то εст князя козарского. I hope, this issue is now over. --Shervinsky (talk) 22:41, 4 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
^Cite error: The named reference Plokhy2008 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
