Talk:Evolution: Difference between revisions
Undid revision 626950857 by Apokryltaros (talk) please leave it and the reply |
Reverted good faith edits by Jehochman (talk): Not about improving this science article. (TW) |
||
Line 158: | Line 158: | ||
:Wrong cartoon, the one on the page is from ''The Hornet''; on p. 377 Browne discusses how Darwin's beard was a bonus for cartoonists, "his general hairiness begged to be turned into animal fur. Add a tail, and there was an image that shrieked of ape or monkey ancestors". Re the ''Hornet'' image, "Such a picture of Darwin-as-ape or Darwin-as-monkey readily identified him as the author of the theory in the same way as a military longboot might have identified the Duke of Wellington". p. 378 "A hairy apish Darwin and a tree became readily recognisable images of evolution–perhaps as recognisable to Victorians as the double helix of DNA is to people today". The double helix is a symbol of genetics, and over the pages listed Browne covers how Darwin-as-ape was used in a symbolic way that didn't occur with Huxley or Wallace. The effect to a large effect promoted evolutionary ideas rather than attacking them: "Indeed this interweaving of evolutionary theory and portraits of Darwin probably contributed materially to the sense that evolutionism and Darwinism were one and the same thing." These were satirists or comedic cartoonists using a symbol, not necessarily "satirising evolution". The ''La Petite Lune'' image satirises "how Darwin's ideas were taken up by positivists" such as [[Auguste Comte]] and seems to be satirising materialist philosophy rather than evolution. A complex few pages, the point in my view is that Darwin-as-ape became as popular symbol, much appreciated by Darwin himself, rather than the attacks on evolution so familiar in the modern creation-evoution controversy. So, in my opinion "used to satirise evolution" is wrong, and misleading to a modern reader. Got any alternative suggestions for the wording? . . [[User:Dave souza|dave souza]], [[User talk:Dave souza|talk]] 22:24, 24 July 2014 (UTC) |
:Wrong cartoon, the one on the page is from ''The Hornet''; on p. 377 Browne discusses how Darwin's beard was a bonus for cartoonists, "his general hairiness begged to be turned into animal fur. Add a tail, and there was an image that shrieked of ape or monkey ancestors". Re the ''Hornet'' image, "Such a picture of Darwin-as-ape or Darwin-as-monkey readily identified him as the author of the theory in the same way as a military longboot might have identified the Duke of Wellington". p. 378 "A hairy apish Darwin and a tree became readily recognisable images of evolution–perhaps as recognisable to Victorians as the double helix of DNA is to people today". The double helix is a symbol of genetics, and over the pages listed Browne covers how Darwin-as-ape was used in a symbolic way that didn't occur with Huxley or Wallace. The effect to a large effect promoted evolutionary ideas rather than attacking them: "Indeed this interweaving of evolutionary theory and portraits of Darwin probably contributed materially to the sense that evolutionism and Darwinism were one and the same thing." These were satirists or comedic cartoonists using a symbol, not necessarily "satirising evolution". The ''La Petite Lune'' image satirises "how Darwin's ideas were taken up by positivists" such as [[Auguste Comte]] and seems to be satirising materialist philosophy rather than evolution. A complex few pages, the point in my view is that Darwin-as-ape became as popular symbol, much appreciated by Darwin himself, rather than the attacks on evolution so familiar in the modern creation-evoution controversy. So, in my opinion "used to satirise evolution" is wrong, and misleading to a modern reader. Got any alternative suggestions for the wording? . . [[User:Dave souza|dave souza]], [[User talk:Dave souza|talk]] 22:24, 24 July 2014 (UTC) |
||
::Thank you for the detailed explanation. It sounds like you're right to use "symbolise". —[[User:Mr. Granger|Mr. Granger]] ([[User talk:Mr. Granger|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Mr. Granger|contribs]]) 22:53, 24 July 2014 (UTC) |
::Thank you for the detailed explanation. It sounds like you're right to use "symbolise". —[[User:Mr. Granger|Mr. Granger]] ([[User talk:Mr. Granger|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Mr. Granger|contribs]]) 22:53, 24 July 2014 (UTC) |
||
"Neutrality is the tendency not to side in a conflict (physical or ideological)...." that is the definition given by Wikipedia on neutrality. But it seems Wikipedia shows it favors Evolution over Creation. Being a Agnostic myself i don't think that's a problem on a personal level but if Wikipedia wants to continue being a encyclopedia.... you cant show favoritism. I say this because reading the Creation article i noticed the wording: "Creationism is the belief that the Universe......" so just a belief, while the Evolution article states: " Evolution is the change in the inherited characteristics..." |
|||
And the explanation up top is very unsatisfactory. The reality is that evolutionists aren't the majority. In the US only 50% are evolutionists and 50% creationists.....split down the middle. But if i'm not mistaken Wikipedia is not national its global and world wide the number of evolutionists dwindles compared to creationists. So why not add criticism for evolution?????? Why not add articles that question the THEORY of evolution? For example the simple fact that Evolution is to this day a unproven theory. Or the fact that evolution has not successfully passed the scientific process. Why are you adding criticism of one topic and not the other? Are the opinions of Wikipedia pertinent to the biased any one man? If so then all articles can come to question. If you show your biased here what other articles are biased? Your an encyclopedia, you give information not opinions. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Frank M Martin|Frank M Martin]] ([[User talk:Frank M Martin|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Frank M Martin|contribs]]) 19:05, 24 September 2014 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
|||
:All of this is covered in the frequently asked questions section above. [[User:Theroadislong|Theroadislong]] ([[User talk:Theroadislong|talk]]) 19:08, 24 September 2014 (UTC) |
Revision as of 09:36, 25 September 2014
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Evolution article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
The categories listed below refer to WikiProjects which have expressed an interest in this article. |
Many of these questions are rephrased objections to evolution that users have argued should be included in the text of Evolution. The reason for their exclusion is discussed below. The main points of this FAQ can be summarized as:
More detail is given on each of these points, and other common questions and objections, below. To view the response to a question, click the [show] link to the right of the question. Q1: Why won't you add criticisms or objections to evolution in the Evolution article?
A1: This is essentially mandated by Wikipedia's official neutral point of view policy. This policy requires that articles treat views on various subjects proportionally to those views' mainstream acceptance in the appropriate academic field. For example, if two contradictory views in physics are held by roughly an equal number of physicists, then Wikipedia should give those views "equal time". On the other hand, if one view is held by 99% of physicists and the other by 1%, then Wikipedia should favor the former view throughout its physics articles; the latter view should receive little, if any, coverage. To do otherwise would require, for example, that we treat belief in a Flat Earth as being equal to other viewpoints on the figure of the Earth.
Due to the enormous mainstream scientific consensus in support of modern evolutionary theory, and pursuant to Wikipedia's aforementioned policies, the Evolution article references evolution as an observable natural process and as the valid explanation for the diversity of life on Earth. Although there are indeed opposing views to evolution, such as Creationism, none of these views have any support in the relevant field (biology), and therefore Wikipedia cannot, and should not, treat these opposing views as being significant to the science of evolution. On the other hand, they may be very significant to sociological articles on the effects of evolutionary theory on religious and cultural beliefs; this is why sociological and historical articles such as Rejection of evolution by religious groups give major coverage to these opposing views, while biological articles such as Evolution do not. Q2: Evolution is controversial, so why won't you teach the controversy?
A2: As noted above, evolution is at best only controversial in social areas like politics and religion. The fact that evolution occurs and the ability of modern evolutionary theory to explain why it occurs are not controversial amongst biologists. Indeed, numerous respectable scientific societies, such as the American Association for the Advancement of Science and the National Academy of Sciences, have issued statements supporting evolution and denouncing creationism and/or ID.[1] In 1987 only about 0.15% of American Earth and life scientists supported creationism.[2]
Thus, as a consequence of Wikipedia's policies, it is necessary to treat evolution as mainstream scientific consensus treats it: an uncontroversial fact that has an uncontested and accurate explanation in evolutionary theory. There are no scientifically supported "alternatives" for this view. However, while the overall theory of evolution is not controversial in that it is the only widely-accepted scientific theory for the diversity of life on Earth, certain aspects of the theory are controversial or disputed in that there actually are significant disagreements regarding them among biologists. These lesser controversies, such as over the rate of evolution, the importance of various mechanisms such as the neutral theory of molecular evolution, or the relevance of the gene-centered view of evolution, are, in fact, covered extensively in Wikipedia's science articles. However, most are too technical to warrant a great deal of discussion on the top-level article Evolution. They are very different from the creation–evolution controversy, however, in that they amount to scientific disputes, not religious ones. Q3: Why is evolution described as though it's a fact? Isn't evolution just a theory?
A3: That depends on if you use the words evolution, theory, and fact in their scientific or their colloquial sense. Unfortunately, all of these words have at least two meanings. For example, evolution can either refer to an observed process (covered at evolution), or, as a shorthand for evolutionary theory, to the explanation for that process (covered at modern evolutionary synthesis). To avoid confusion between these two meanings, when the theory of evolution, rather than the process/fact of evolution, is being discussed, this will usually be noted by explicitly using the word theory.
Evolution is not a theory in the sense used on Evolution; rather, it is a fact. This is because the word evolution is used here to refer to the observed process of the genetic composition of populations changing over successive generations. Because this is simply an observation, it is considered a fact. Fact has two different meanings: in colloquial usage, it refers to any well-supported proposition; in scientific usage, it refers to a confirmed observation. For example, in the scientific sense, "apples fall if you drop them" is a fact, but "apples fall if you drop them because of a curvature in spacetime" is a theory. Gravity can thus either refer to a fact (the observation that objects are attracted to each other) or a theory (general relativity, which is the explanation for this fact). Evolution is the same way. As a fact, evolution is an observed biological process; as a theory, it is the explanation for this process. What adds to this confusion is that the theory of evolution is also sometimes called a "fact", in the colloquial sense—that is, to emphasize how well supported it is. When evolution is shorthand for "evolutionary theory", evolution is indeed a theory. However, phrasing this as "just a theory" is misleading. Theory has two different meanings: in colloquial usage, it refers to a conjecture or guess; in scientific usage, it refers to a well-supported explanation or model for observed phenomena. Evolution is a theory in the latter sense, not in the former. Thus, it is a theory in the same sense that gravity and plate tectonics are theories. The currently accepted theory of evolution is known as the modern evolutionary synthesis. Q4: But isn't evolution unproven?
A4: Once again, this depends on how one is defining the terms proof and proven. Proof has two meanings: in logic and mathematics, it refers to an argument or demonstration showing that a proposition is completely certain and logically necessary; in other uses, proof refers to the establishment and accumulation of experimental evidence to a degree at which it lends overwhelming support to a proposition. Therefore, a proven proposition in the mathematical sense is one which is formally known to be true, while a proven proposition in the more general sense is one which is widely held to be true because the evidence strongly indicates that this is so ("beyond all reasonable doubt", in legal language).
In the first sense, the whole of evolutionary theory is not proven with absolute certainty, but there are mathematical proofs in evolutionary theory. However, nothing in the natural sciences can be proven in the first sense: empirical claims such as those in science cannot ever be absolutely certain, because they always depend on a finite set of facts that have been studied relative to the unproven assumptions of things stirring in the infinite complexity of the world around us. Evolutionary science pushes the threshold of discovery into the unknown. To call evolution "unproven" in this sense is technically correct, but meaningless, because propositions like "the Earth revolves around the Sun" and even "the Earth exists" are equally unproven. Absolute proof is only possible for a priori propositions like "1 + 1 = 2" or "all bachelors are unmarried men", which do not depend on any experience or evidence, but rather on definition. In the second sense, on the other hand, evolutionary theory is indeed "proven". This is because evolution is extremely well supported by the evidence, has made testable confirmed predictions, etc. For more information, see Evidence of evolution. Q5: Has evolution ever been observed?
A5: Evolution, as a fact, is the gradual change in forms of life over several billion years. In contrast, the field of evolutionary biology is less than 200 years old. So it is not surprising that scientists did not directly observe, for example, the gradual change over tens of millions of years of land mammals to whales.[3] However, there are other ways to "observe" evolution in action.
Scientists have directly observed and tested small changes in forms of life in laboratories, particularly in organisms that breed rapidly, such as bacteria and fruit flies.[4] A famous experiment was developed in 1992 that traced bacterial evolution with precision in a lab. This experiment has subsequently been used to test the accuracy and robustness of methods used in reconstructing the evolutionary history of other organisms with great success.[5][6] Evolution has also been observed in the field, such as in the plant Oenothera lamarckiana which gave rise to the new species Oenothera gigas,[7] in the Italian Wall Lizard,[8] and in Darwin's finches.[9] Scientists have observed significant changes in forms of life in the fossil record. From these direct observations scientists have been able to make inferences regarding the evolutionary history of life. Such inferences are also common to all fields of science. For example, the neutron has never been observed, but all the available data supports the neutron model. The inferences upon which evolution is based have been tested by the study of more recently discovered fossils, the science of genetics, and other methods. For example, critics once challenged the inference that land mammals evolved into whales. However, later fossil discoveries illustrated the pathway of whale evolution.[3] So, although the entire evolutionary history of life has not been directly observed, all available data supports the fact of evolution. Q6: Why is microevolution equated with macroevolution?
A6: The article doesn't equate the two, but merely recognizes that they are largely or entirely the same process, just on different timescales. The great majority of modern evolutionary biologists consider macroevolution to simply be microevolution on a larger timescale; all fields of science accept that small ("micro") changes can accumulate to produce large ("macro") differences, given enough time. Most of the topics covered in the evolution article are basic enough to not require an appeal to the micro/macro distinction. Consequently, the two terms are not equated, but simply not dealt with much.
A more nuanced version of the claim that evolution has never been observed is to claim that microevolution has been directly observed, while macroevolution has not. However, that is not the case, as speciations, which are generally seen as the benchmark for macroevolution, have been observed in a number of instances. Q7: What about the scientific evidence against evolution?
A7: To be frank, there isn't any. Most claimed "evidence against evolution" is either a distortion of the actual facts of the matter, or an example of something that hasn't been explained yet. The former is erroneous, as it is based on incorrect claims. The latter, on the other hand, even when accurate, is irrelevant. The fact that not everything is fully understood doesn't make a certain proposition false; that is an example of the argument from ignorance logical fallacy. Examples of claimed evidence against evolution:
Q8: How could life arise by chance?
A8: If by "arise", one means "develop from non-organic matter through abiogenesis", then this is a question that is not answered by evolutionary theory. Evolution only deals with the development of pre-existing life, not with how that life first came to be. The fact that life evolves is not dependent upon the origin of life any more than the fact that objects gravitate towards other objects is dependent upon the Big Bang.
On the other hand, if by "arise" one means "evolve into the organisms alive today", then the simple answer is: it didn't. Evolution does not occur "by chance". Rather, evolution occurs through natural selection, which is a non-random process. Although mutation is random, natural selection favors mutations that have specific properties—the selection is therefore not random. Natural selection occurs because organisms with favored characteristics survive and reproduce more than ones without favored characteristics, and if these characteristics are heritable they will mechanically increase in frequency over generations. Although some evolutionary phenomena, such as genetic drift, are indeed random, these processes do not produce adaptations in organisms. If the substance of this objection is that evolution seems implausible, that it's hard to imagine how life could develop by natural processes, then this is an invalid argument from ignorance. Something does not need to be intuitive or easy to grasp in order to be true.Past discussions For further information, see the numerous past discussions on these topics in the archives of Talk:Evolution: The article is not neutral. It doesn't mention that evolution is controversial.
The article should mention alternative views prominently, such as in a criticism section.
Evolution is just a theory, not a fact.
There is scientific evidence against evolution. References
|
Evolution is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on March 18, 2005. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article has not yet been rated on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Template:WikiProject Genetics
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
|
This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations:
|
This article was reviewed by The Denver Post on April 30, 2007. Comments: "good," even if "stylistic infelicities abound."; "a fine introduction"; "source list appropriate, and well-rounded." Please examine the findings.(Note - this review prompted the drive to bring the article back to FA.) For more information about external reviews of Wikipedia articles and about this review in particular, see this page. |
This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
Index 2003–2005 2006
2007
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present. |
2014 New Theory of Life
“You start with a random clump of atoms, and if you shine light on it for long enough, it should not be so surprising that you get a plant,” England said. http://www.simonsfoundation.org/quanta/20140122-a-new-physics-theory-of-life/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.34.196.239 (talk) 19:20, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- Let's not add that. It appears to be the misuse of a quote; the same source says that "England's theory is meant to underlie, rather than replace, Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection", and you could've mentioned that the person's name was England. Quoting people out of context. Why am I not surprised to see this here? -Baconfry (talk) 19:26, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- Baconfry, are these just random throw-away remarks? I don't understand what you are getting at. Some of English's work, eg [1], [2] and [3], seems exceptionally interesting and relevant. It is perhaps a bit early to include it in Wikipedia, but let's see whether it holds up. --Epipelagic (talk) 20:17, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- Oops, never mind. Maybe I'm just overly sensitive, but I thought this was another example of a good scientist being quoted out of context. I don't know if it was 91.34.196.239's intention, but I'll let it go and see if we can find a place to reference England's work. -Baconfry (talk) 20:38, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- Baconfry, are these just random throw-away remarks? I don't understand what you are getting at. Some of English's work, eg [1], [2] and [3], seems exceptionally interesting and relevant. It is perhaps a bit early to include it in Wikipedia, but let's see whether it holds up. --Epipelagic (talk) 20:17, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 16 July 2014
This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
For greater clarity add "gradual" to the opening sentence changing, "Evolution is the change in the inherited characteristics of biological populations over successive generations." to "Evolution is the gradual change in the inherited characteristics of biological populations over successive generations." Dtheis (talk) 21:29, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- I'd carry out the change myself if it wasn't the WP:LEDE. I'll second the change, and back anyone who does carries it out. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:04, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- Ok, instead, if no one provides a good objection to it by the time I remember to get to it tomorrow or the next day, I'll make the change. Ian.thomson (talk) 01:34, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
- I agree with both statements. Plus, I believe "gradual" supported by the provided citations and used elsewhere in the article as well. Mophedd (talk) 01:47, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
- See punctuated equilibrium, but it would be a good idea to add "gradual" anyways. Evolution is most certainly gradual relative to the human lifespan, and we don't want to confuse individuals who might have the misconception that individuals can evolve. Baconfry (talk) 01:52, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
- The punctuated equilibrium article has a section about the multiple meanings of "gradualism", however. Richard Dawkins (the source for much of that section) even argues that punctuated equilibrium is a form of gradualism. Mophedd (talk) 11:41, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Done by User:Ian.thomson. —Mr. Granger (talk · contribs) 02:52, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
I've reverted the edit. Changing the definition in such a contentious article needs more discussion. You should wait longer than just one day before changing it. That gives other editors a chance to chime in. Did anyone search the talk page archives to read about previous definition consensus? What source in the article supports the "gradual" statement? Saying evolution is most certainly gradual without source confirmation is walking the OR line. In regards to punctuated equilibrium and gradualism, those are theories "in" evolutionary biology. Does that mean it applies to evolution as a whole? Do we have a source for that? Does a majority of dictionaries and textbooks use the word gradual? Thanks.Dkspartan1 (talk) 16:23, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, the talk page FAQ question 5 states "Evolution, as a fact, is the gradual change in forms of life over several billion years." To be honest, it should already say "gradual", "over time", "over successive generations", or something to that effect. The point is, it takes time. There is also this [4] which says "over time", as does this [5] just to name a couple. If you need more refs, I'm more than willing to provide them. Simply reverting an edit because it's to a contentious article makes no sense, though. Was it correct? Was it concise? Would the lede still summarize the article acceptably? Thoughts? Mophedd (talk) 03:56, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
"Simply reverting an edit because it's to a contentious article makes no sense, though" That's pretty ignorant. It wasn't reverted because it's a contentious article. It was reverted because of the questions that needed to be addressed.
"it should already say "gradual", "over time", "over successive generations", or something to that effect" Are you saying you didn't see this part "change in the inherited characteristics of biological populations over successive generations"?
You didn't answer my question concerning the talk archives. If, as you claim, this should already be in the article (which it is), you don't think such an obvious omission may have been addressed before? I suggest you look at archive 64, a lot of work was done to arrive at the current definition. Dkspartan1 (talk) 09:02, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
- Only reliable sources are relevant. No one cares how much work went into an article if it's unsourced or can be falsified by reliable sources. Accurate is better. I believe adding "gradual" would benefit the article (as was stated above). I tried to provide two easy sources to get the ball rolling on "gradual", or "over time". I provided a couple sources, but if you don't like them, I'm sure many more can be found (I grabbed the first 2 I saw on google as an example). The FAQ question 5 states that "Evolution, as a fact, is the gradual change in forms of life over several billion years." I believe that statement can be reliably sourced many times over. I you don't agree, either Q5 on this talk page should be under discussion, or this policy should. I read archive 64, BTW, but I didn't see suggestions for adding "gradual" directly to the lede, or really anywhere, for that matter. Since adding "gradual" is the current proposal, it can be sourced, I believe it adds greater clarity and is an improvement, I'm forced to agreed. Are you opposed to this proposal? Do you have compromise or alternative? A competing proposal? Would more sources help? There's a section and article about how evolutionary adaptations can be created within an organism's life and passed onto offspring (so called Neo-Lamarckism), flying in the face of almost all Darwinian theories. Would we be giving undue weight by mentioning this, also? Mophedd (talk) 01:50, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
- Reverting the "gradual" edit is essentially saying that there's a chance that a consensus could be reached that evolution is NOT gradual. Is it possible? Instead of just bringing up how we lack sources from people who care about whether evolution is explicitly stated to be "gradual" or not, it might be better to bring up the actual argument against evolution being gradual, if that argument exists and doesn't consist of random exceptions here and there. It's like deleting a statement that says that mammals are placental because of three exceptions. Let's give the anti-gradual party another day to make their presence known, but I'm sure calling it a "gradual change" is the right way to go. Baconfry (talk) 19:45, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
- Nope. If you want to add gradual, the burden is on you to support it. The sources provided don't say it's gradual. It only explains that they happen over time, which is how it's already described in the article. Dkspartan1 (talk) 21:03, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
- This is a ridiculous argument, and I suggest it ends now. Are you seriously suggesting that "evolution happens over time" is in some crucial way different from "evolution is gradual"? And that the wording requires a source? Preposterous. They amount to the same thing, and you are needlessly warring about pure semantics. Correct me if I am wrong, providing appropriate citations, but no credible authority in the history of research on the topic has ever suggested that evolution happens instantaneously. Clearly that is impossible, and rational people don't need to argue the toss about it. Plantsurfer (talk) 22:32, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
- Nope. If you want to add gradual, the burden is on you to support it. The sources provided don't say it's gradual. It only explains that they happen over time, which is how it's already described in the article. Dkspartan1 (talk) 21:03, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
- Reverting the "gradual" edit is essentially saying that there's a chance that a consensus could be reached that evolution is NOT gradual. Is it possible? Instead of just bringing up how we lack sources from people who care about whether evolution is explicitly stated to be "gradual" or not, it might be better to bring up the actual argument against evolution being gradual, if that argument exists and doesn't consist of random exceptions here and there. It's like deleting a statement that says that mammals are placental because of three exceptions. Let's give the anti-gradual party another day to make their presence known, but I'm sure calling it a "gradual change" is the right way to go. Baconfry (talk) 19:45, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
- Only reliable sources are relevant. No one cares how much work went into an article if it's unsourced or can be falsified by reliable sources. Accurate is better. I believe adding "gradual" would benefit the article (as was stated above). I tried to provide two easy sources to get the ball rolling on "gradual", or "over time". I provided a couple sources, but if you don't like them, I'm sure many more can be found (I grabbed the first 2 I saw on google as an example). The FAQ question 5 states that "Evolution, as a fact, is the gradual change in forms of life over several billion years." I believe that statement can be reliably sourced many times over. I you don't agree, either Q5 on this talk page should be under discussion, or this policy should. I read archive 64, BTW, but I didn't see suggestions for adding "gradual" directly to the lede, or really anywhere, for that matter. Since adding "gradual" is the current proposal, it can be sourced, I believe it adds greater clarity and is an improvement, I'm forced to agreed. Are you opposed to this proposal? Do you have compromise or alternative? A competing proposal? Would more sources help? There's a section and article about how evolutionary adaptations can be created within an organism's life and passed onto offspring (so called Neo-Lamarckism), flying in the face of almost all Darwinian theories. Would we be giving undue weight by mentioning this, also? Mophedd (talk) 01:50, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
Oppose addition of gradual to definition. Evolution can occur quickly or slowly. Adding gradual to the definition would no longer be accurate because we would be excluding instances that would be considered not gradual (either on a human or evolutionary timescale). Many if not most examples are slow or gradual, but it's not particularly difficult to envision bottlenecks or a trait rapidly spreading through a population if there is strong selection pressure (e.g. Peppered moth evolution). Time doesn't really play a role in what evolution is, but rather changes over generations. How fast or slow those changes happen isn't what defines evolution. Kingofaces43 (talk) 17:49, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
Oppose, as what Kingofaces said, "gradual" is extremely subjective when talking about evolution, especially when you don't specify which biological structure or taxon you're talking about, such as appearance of antibiotic resistance in bacteria versus loss of toes in horses versus trends in brachiopod evolution. If one has to add a modifier, perhaps "incremental" would be much better?--Mr Fink (talk) 18:16, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
- See, that's the thing. Rate of evolution depends too much on generation time, making evolution of antibiotic resistance in bacteria considerably less gradual than in mammals. Nevertheless, evolution is still gradual enough so that you can't stare at something and watch it evolve, which is why I think it's still better to state that it's gradual. Or incremental, which I suppose also makes sense. Baconfry (talk) 16:21, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
- The issue is gradual on what time scale though? Depending on who the reader is, gradual can have different meanings. That's why it seems better to keep the definition concise rather than adding terms that can muddle things.Kingofaces43 (talk) 17:06, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Inadequate definition in the first lines
Set aside the gradual issue for a second. I find the first sentence "Evolution is the change in the inherited characteristics of biological populations over successive generations." inadequate, a pretty feeble attempt to define a momentous concept that has irreversibly altered the way mankind thinks about itself and its place in the world. That first sentence utterly fails to indicate anything at all about the nature of the change, its direction, its rate or the mechanism which brought it about or the mechanism that perpetuated it, or of its consequences. Then while we are still floundering in a miasma of doubt, before we are even introduced to the possibility that evolution is actually a process rather than just an event, we are subjected to "Evolutionary processes give rise to diversity at every level of biological organization . . .". This introduction is vague, confusing, unencyclopedic, assumes too much of the reader's background knowledge. We must be able to do better than this. We need to come up with a new form of words that nails the essential features of the concept in as few words as possible.Plantsurfer (talk) 18:11, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
- Ah, there we go. Finally I can feel like I'm doing something important on this page. Here goes. "First of all, evolution itself is not the change. Change arises in genetic mutations, meiotic recombinations in crossover, and loads of other factors like transposons, viral infections, blah blah. Evolution is actually "quality control". It decides which of those random changes will be passed on to the next generation, by virtue of a simple test: all contestants are challenged to a race to see who can reproduce most successfully. Resources are not infinite. Not all of them will achieve their goal. But because the random differences between members of a population are genetic, they can be passed on through reproduction. And chances are that those mutations that made a positive difference to survival and reproduction will be the ones that make it to the next round." Now, of course, that paragraph isn't going into the article as it is. But it's my best attempt at a concise summary of what evolution really is. Did I nail it? Baconfry (talk) 18:53, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
- How about starting with "Evolution is the incremental accumulations of inherited characteristics of biological populations over successive generations"?--Mr Fink (talk) 19:35, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
- Accumulation?? do mammals still have the genes for fins? The possibility of loss must be accommodated also.Plantsurfer (talk) 20:02, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
- Technically speaking, (a population) can accumulate and or inherit a net loss of inherited characteristics: both the acquisition and loss of biological features are characteristic changes that can be inherited by successive generations. That, and the limbs of mammals and all other tetrapods are, technically speaking either fins or heavily modified fins.--Mr Fink (talk) 21:09, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
- Hairlessness is a change that can be inherited, yes?
- Not in my experience, lol! Where is this going? Plantsurfer (talk) 22:26, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
- Notwithstanding my feeling that the opening statements are somehow inadequate, I have to concede that it is hard to improve on them. I also note that the wording of the first sentence is, whether by accident or design, almost verbatim that of the title of this article: Forbes, A. A. & Krimmel, B. A. (2010) Evolution Is Change in the Inherited Traits of a Population through Successive Generations. Nature Education Knowledge 3(10):6. I suggest that if we are going to go with that definition it would be appropriate to cite this as a source. It would also provide a reason to fix the wording. Plantsurfer (talk) 10:24, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
- Not in my experience, lol! Where is this going? Plantsurfer (talk) 22:26, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
- Accumulation?? do mammals still have the genes for fins? The possibility of loss must be accommodated also.Plantsurfer (talk) 20:02, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
- How about starting with "Evolution is the incremental accumulations of inherited characteristics of biological populations over successive generations"?--Mr Fink (talk) 19:35, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
Taking a step back this discussion seems to be based on the idea that we need to make evolution sound more "momentous"? Is that how scientific concepts should be explained though? I would say that the current wording did indeed come about based upon different aims, i.e. to try to distill the real facts of the matter, keeping in mind that the word is used very flexibly, and not always for momentous things.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 16:40, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
"symbolised evolution"
A few minutes ago, I edited the caption of an image on this page from "As evolution became widely accepted in the 1870s, caricatures of Charles Darwin with an ape or monkey body symbolised evolution." to "As evolution became widely accepted in the 1870s, caricatures of Charles Darwin with an ape or monkey body were used to satirise evolution." I was reverted by User:Dave souza, with the edit summary "phrasing correct per source, see Browne". I've checked Browne's book, and I do not see how it supports the word "symbolise" as opposed to "satirise". Indeed, it specifically mentions that "the Parisian satirical journal La Petite Lune dangled him in the guise of a monkey". I would appreciate some clarification from Dave souza as to why he feels the "symbolise" wording better reflects the source. —Mr. Granger (talk · contribs) 20:04, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- Wrong cartoon, the one on the page is from The Hornet; on p. 377 Browne discusses how Darwin's beard was a bonus for cartoonists, "his general hairiness begged to be turned into animal fur. Add a tail, and there was an image that shrieked of ape or monkey ancestors". Re the Hornet image, "Such a picture of Darwin-as-ape or Darwin-as-monkey readily identified him as the author of the theory in the same way as a military longboot might have identified the Duke of Wellington". p. 378 "A hairy apish Darwin and a tree became readily recognisable images of evolution–perhaps as recognisable to Victorians as the double helix of DNA is to people today". The double helix is a symbol of genetics, and over the pages listed Browne covers how Darwin-as-ape was used in a symbolic way that didn't occur with Huxley or Wallace. The effect to a large effect promoted evolutionary ideas rather than attacking them: "Indeed this interweaving of evolutionary theory and portraits of Darwin probably contributed materially to the sense that evolutionism and Darwinism were one and the same thing." These were satirists or comedic cartoonists using a symbol, not necessarily "satirising evolution". The La Petite Lune image satirises "how Darwin's ideas were taken up by positivists" such as Auguste Comte and seems to be satirising materialist philosophy rather than evolution. A complex few pages, the point in my view is that Darwin-as-ape became as popular symbol, much appreciated by Darwin himself, rather than the attacks on evolution so familiar in the modern creation-evoution controversy. So, in my opinion "used to satirise evolution" is wrong, and misleading to a modern reader. Got any alternative suggestions for the wording? . . dave souza, talk 22:24, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you for the detailed explanation. It sounds like you're right to use "symbolise". —Mr. Granger (talk · contribs) 22:53, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- Wikipedia featured articles
- Featured articles that have appeared on the main page
- Featured articles that have appeared on the main page once
- Wikipedia former featured articles
- Old requests for peer review
- Wikipedia Did you know articles that are featured articles
- FA-Class Evolutionary biology articles
- Top-importance Evolutionary biology articles
- WikiProject Evolutionary biology articles
- FA-Class history of science articles
- Top-importance history of science articles
- WikiProject History of Science articles
- FA-Class Biology articles
- Top-importance Biology articles
- WikiProject Biology articles
- FA-Class Creationism articles
- Top-importance Creationism articles
- WikiProject Creationism articles
- FA-Class Religion articles
- Mid-importance Religion articles
- WikiProject Religion articles
- Wikipedia pages referenced by the press
- Externally peer reviewed articles
- Externally peer reviewed articles by The Denver Post
- Wikipedia articles that use British English