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Undid revision 626950857 by Apokryltaros (talk) please leave it and the reply
Reverted good faith edits by Jehochman (talk): Not about improving this science article. (TW)
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:Wrong cartoon, the one on the page is from ''The Hornet''; on p. 377 Browne discusses how Darwin's beard was a bonus for cartoonists, "his general hairiness begged to be turned into animal fur. Add a tail, and there was an image that shrieked of ape or monkey ancestors". Re the ''Hornet'' image, "Such a picture of Darwin-as-ape or Darwin-as-monkey readily identified him as the author of the theory in the same way as a military longboot might have identified the Duke of Wellington". p. 378 "A hairy apish Darwin and a tree became readily recognisable images of evolution–perhaps as recognisable to Victorians as the double helix of DNA is to people today". The double helix is a symbol of genetics, and over the pages listed Browne covers how Darwin-as-ape was used in a symbolic way that didn't occur with Huxley or Wallace. The effect to a large effect promoted evolutionary ideas rather than attacking them: "Indeed this interweaving of evolutionary theory and portraits of Darwin probably contributed materially to the sense that evolutionism and Darwinism were one and the same thing." These were satirists or comedic cartoonists using a symbol, not necessarily "satirising evolution". The ''La Petite Lune'' image satirises "how Darwin's ideas were taken up by positivists" such as [[Auguste Comte]] and seems to be satirising materialist philosophy rather than evolution. A complex few pages, the point in my view is that Darwin-as-ape became as popular symbol, much appreciated by Darwin himself, rather than the attacks on evolution so familiar in the modern creation-evoution controversy. So, in my opinion "used to satirise evolution" is wrong, and misleading to a modern reader. Got any alternative suggestions for the wording? . . [[User:Dave souza|dave souza]], [[User talk:Dave souza|talk]] 22:24, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
:Wrong cartoon, the one on the page is from ''The Hornet''; on p. 377 Browne discusses how Darwin's beard was a bonus for cartoonists, "his general hairiness begged to be turned into animal fur. Add a tail, and there was an image that shrieked of ape or monkey ancestors". Re the ''Hornet'' image, "Such a picture of Darwin-as-ape or Darwin-as-monkey readily identified him as the author of the theory in the same way as a military longboot might have identified the Duke of Wellington". p. 378 "A hairy apish Darwin and a tree became readily recognisable images of evolution–perhaps as recognisable to Victorians as the double helix of DNA is to people today". The double helix is a symbol of genetics, and over the pages listed Browne covers how Darwin-as-ape was used in a symbolic way that didn't occur with Huxley or Wallace. The effect to a large effect promoted evolutionary ideas rather than attacking them: "Indeed this interweaving of evolutionary theory and portraits of Darwin probably contributed materially to the sense that evolutionism and Darwinism were one and the same thing." These were satirists or comedic cartoonists using a symbol, not necessarily "satirising evolution". The ''La Petite Lune'' image satirises "how Darwin's ideas were taken up by positivists" such as [[Auguste Comte]] and seems to be satirising materialist philosophy rather than evolution. A complex few pages, the point in my view is that Darwin-as-ape became as popular symbol, much appreciated by Darwin himself, rather than the attacks on evolution so familiar in the modern creation-evoution controversy. So, in my opinion "used to satirise evolution" is wrong, and misleading to a modern reader. Got any alternative suggestions for the wording? . . [[User:Dave souza|dave souza]], [[User talk:Dave souza|talk]] 22:24, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
::Thank you for the detailed explanation. It sounds like you're right to use "symbolise". —[[User:Mr. Granger|Mr. Granger]] ([[User talk:Mr. Granger|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Mr. Granger|contribs]]) 22:53, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
::Thank you for the detailed explanation. It sounds like you're right to use "symbolise". —[[User:Mr. Granger|Mr. Granger]] ([[User talk:Mr. Granger|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Mr. Granger|contribs]]) 22:53, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

"Neutrality is the tendency not to side in a conflict (physical or ideological)...." that is the definition given by Wikipedia on neutrality. But it seems Wikipedia shows it favors Evolution over Creation. Being a Agnostic myself i don't think that's a problem on a personal level but if Wikipedia wants to continue being a encyclopedia.... you cant show favoritism. I say this because reading the Creation article i noticed the wording: "Creationism is the belief that the Universe......" so just a belief, while the Evolution article states: " Evolution is the change in the inherited characteristics..."
And the explanation up top is very unsatisfactory. The reality is that evolutionists aren't the majority. In the US only 50% are evolutionists and 50% creationists.....split down the middle. But if i'm not mistaken Wikipedia is not national its global and world wide the number of evolutionists dwindles compared to creationists. So why not add criticism for evolution?????? Why not add articles that question the THEORY of evolution? For example the simple fact that Evolution is to this day a unproven theory. Or the fact that evolution has not successfully passed the scientific process. Why are you adding criticism of one topic and not the other? Are the opinions of Wikipedia pertinent to the biased any one man? If so then all articles can come to question. If you show your biased here what other articles are biased? Your an encyclopedia, you give information not opinions. <small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Frank M Martin|Frank M Martin]] ([[User talk:Frank M Martin|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Frank M Martin|contribs]]) 19:05, 24 September 2014 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:All of this is covered in the frequently asked questions section above. [[User:Theroadislong|Theroadislong]] ([[User talk:Theroadislong|talk]]) 19:08, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Revision as of 09:36, 25 September 2014

Template:Vital article

Featured articleEvolution is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on March 18, 2005.
Did You Know Article milestones
DateProcessResult
February 4, 2005Featured article candidatePromoted
August 17, 2005Featured article reviewKept
February 7, 2007Featured article reviewDemoted
May 31, 2007Peer reviewReviewed
June 10, 2007Featured article candidatePromoted
Did You Know A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on October 12, 2007.
Current status: Featured article
Warning
WARNING: This is not the place to discuss any alleged controversy or opinion about evolution and its related subjects. This page is for discussing improvements to the article, which is about evolution (not creation science, not creationism, and not intelligent design to name a few), and what has been presented in peer-reviewed scientific literature about it. See Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines. Some common points of argument are addressed in the FAQ above, which represents the consensus of editors here. If you are interested in discussing or debating over evolution itself, you may want to visit talk.origins or elsewhere.

2014 New Theory of Life

“You start with a random clump of atoms, and if you shine light on it for long enough, it should not be so surprising that you get a plant,” England said. http://www.simonsfoundation.org/quanta/20140122-a-new-physics-theory-of-life/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.34.196.239 (talk) 19:20, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Let's not add that. It appears to be the misuse of a quote; the same source says that "England's theory is meant to underlie, rather than replace, Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection", and you could've mentioned that the person's name was England. Quoting people out of context. Why am I not surprised to see this here? -Baconfry (talk) 19:26, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Baconfry, are these just random throw-away remarks? I don't understand what you are getting at. Some of English's work, eg [1], [2] and [3], seems exceptionally interesting and relevant. It is perhaps a bit early to include it in Wikipedia, but let's see whether it holds up. --Epipelagic (talk) 20:17, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Oops, never mind. Maybe I'm just overly sensitive, but I thought this was another example of a good scientist being quoted out of context. I don't know if it was 91.34.196.239's intention, but I'll let it go and see if we can find a place to reference England's work. -Baconfry (talk) 20:38, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 16 July 2014

For greater clarity add "gradual" to the opening sentence changing, "Evolution is the change in the inherited characteristics of biological populations over successive generations." to "Evolution is the gradual change in the inherited characteristics of biological populations over successive generations." Dtheis (talk) 21:29, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'd carry out the change myself if it wasn't the WP:LEDE. I'll second the change, and back anyone who does carries it out. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:04, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, instead, if no one provides a good objection to it by the time I remember to get to it tomorrow or the next day, I'll make the change. Ian.thomson (talk) 01:34, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with both statements. Plus, I believe "gradual" supported by the provided citations and used elsewhere in the article as well. Mophedd (talk) 01:47, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
See punctuated equilibrium, but it would be a good idea to add "gradual" anyways. Evolution is most certainly gradual relative to the human lifespan, and we don't want to confuse individuals who might have the misconception that individuals can evolve. Baconfry (talk) 01:52, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The punctuated equilibrium article has a section about the multiple meanings of "gradualism", however. Richard Dawkins (the source for much of that section) even argues that punctuated equilibrium is a form of gradualism. Mophedd (talk) 11:41, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Done by User:Ian.thomson. —Mr. Granger (talk · contribs) 02:52, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've reverted the edit. Changing the definition in such a contentious article needs more discussion. You should wait longer than just one day before changing it. That gives other editors a chance to chime in. Did anyone search the talk page archives to read about previous definition consensus? What source in the article supports the "gradual" statement? Saying evolution is most certainly gradual without source confirmation is walking the OR line. In regards to punctuated equilibrium and gradualism, those are theories "in" evolutionary biology. Does that mean it applies to evolution as a whole? Do we have a source for that? Does a majority of dictionaries and textbooks use the word gradual? Thanks.Dkspartan1 (talk) 16:23, 19 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, the talk page FAQ question 5 states "Evolution, as a fact, is the gradual change in forms of life over several billion years." To be honest, it should already say "gradual", "over time", "over successive generations", or something to that effect. The point is, it takes time. There is also this [4] which says "over time", as does this [5] just to name a couple. If you need more refs, I'm more than willing to provide them. Simply reverting an edit because it's to a contentious article makes no sense, though. Was it correct? Was it concise? Would the lede still summarize the article acceptably? Thoughts? Mophedd (talk) 03:56, 20 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Simply reverting an edit because it's to a contentious article makes no sense, though" That's pretty ignorant. It wasn't reverted because it's a contentious article. It was reverted because of the questions that needed to be addressed.

"it should already say "gradual", "over time", "over successive generations", or something to that effect" Are you saying you didn't see this part "change in the inherited characteristics of biological populations over successive generations"?

You didn't answer my question concerning the talk archives. If, as you claim, this should already be in the article (which it is), you don't think such an obvious omission may have been addressed before? I suggest you look at archive 64, a lot of work was done to arrive at the current definition. Dkspartan1 (talk) 09:02, 20 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Only reliable sources are relevant. No one cares how much work went into an article if it's unsourced or can be falsified by reliable sources. Accurate is better. I believe adding "gradual" would benefit the article (as was stated above). I tried to provide two easy sources to get the ball rolling on "gradual", or "over time". I provided a couple sources, but if you don't like them, I'm sure many more can be found (I grabbed the first 2 I saw on google as an example). The FAQ question 5 states that "Evolution, as a fact, is the gradual change in forms of life over several billion years." I believe that statement can be reliably sourced many times over. I you don't agree, either Q5 on this talk page should be under discussion, or this policy should. I read archive 64, BTW, but I didn't see suggestions for adding "gradual" directly to the lede, or really anywhere, for that matter. Since adding "gradual" is the current proposal, it can be sourced, I believe it adds greater clarity and is an improvement, I'm forced to agreed. Are you opposed to this proposal? Do you have compromise or alternative? A competing proposal? Would more sources help? There's a section and article about how evolutionary adaptations can be created within an organism's life and passed onto offspring (so called Neo-Lamarckism), flying in the face of almost all Darwinian theories. Would we be giving undue weight by mentioning this, also? Mophedd (talk) 01:50, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Reverting the "gradual" edit is essentially saying that there's a chance that a consensus could be reached that evolution is NOT gradual. Is it possible? Instead of just bringing up how we lack sources from people who care about whether evolution is explicitly stated to be "gradual" or not, it might be better to bring up the actual argument against evolution being gradual, if that argument exists and doesn't consist of random exceptions here and there. It's like deleting a statement that says that mammals are placental because of three exceptions. Let's give the anti-gradual party another day to make their presence known, but I'm sure calling it a "gradual change" is the right way to go. Baconfry (talk) 19:45, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Nope. If you want to add gradual, the burden is on you to support it. The sources provided don't say it's gradual. It only explains that they happen over time, which is how it's already described in the article. Dkspartan1 (talk) 21:03, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This is a ridiculous argument, and I suggest it ends now. Are you seriously suggesting that "evolution happens over time" is in some crucial way different from "evolution is gradual"? And that the wording requires a source? Preposterous. They amount to the same thing, and you are needlessly warring about pure semantics. Correct me if I am wrong, providing appropriate citations, but no credible authority in the history of research on the topic has ever suggested that evolution happens instantaneously. Clearly that is impossible, and rational people don't need to argue the toss about it. Plantsurfer (talk) 22:32, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose addition of gradual to definition. Evolution can occur quickly or slowly. Adding gradual to the definition would no longer be accurate because we would be excluding instances that would be considered not gradual (either on a human or evolutionary timescale). Many if not most examples are slow or gradual, but it's not particularly difficult to envision bottlenecks or a trait rapidly spreading through a population if there is strong selection pressure (e.g. Peppered moth evolution). Time doesn't really play a role in what evolution is, but rather changes over generations. How fast or slow those changes happen isn't what defines evolution. Kingofaces43 (talk) 17:49, 22 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, as what Kingofaces said, "gradual" is extremely subjective when talking about evolution, especially when you don't specify which biological structure or taxon you're talking about, such as appearance of antibiotic resistance in bacteria versus loss of toes in horses versus trends in brachiopod evolution. If one has to add a modifier, perhaps "incremental" would be much better?--Mr Fink (talk) 18:16, 22 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

See, that's the thing. Rate of evolution depends too much on generation time, making evolution of antibiotic resistance in bacteria considerably less gradual than in mammals. Nevertheless, evolution is still gradual enough so that you can't stare at something and watch it evolve, which is why I think it's still better to state that it's gradual. Or incremental, which I suppose also makes sense. Baconfry (talk) 16:21, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The issue is gradual on what time scale though? Depending on who the reader is, gradual can have different meanings. That's why it seems better to keep the definition concise rather than adding terms that can muddle things.Kingofaces43 (talk) 17:06, 30 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Inadequate definition in the first lines

Set aside the gradual issue for a second. I find the first sentence "Evolution is the change in the inherited characteristics of biological populations over successive generations." inadequate, a pretty feeble attempt to define a momentous concept that has irreversibly altered the way mankind thinks about itself and its place in the world. That first sentence utterly fails to indicate anything at all about the nature of the change, its direction, its rate or the mechanism which brought it about or the mechanism that perpetuated it, or of its consequences. Then while we are still floundering in a miasma of doubt, before we are even introduced to the possibility that evolution is actually a process rather than just an event, we are subjected to "Evolutionary processes give rise to diversity at every level of biological organization . . .". This introduction is vague, confusing, unencyclopedic, assumes too much of the reader's background knowledge. We must be able to do better than this. We need to come up with a new form of words that nails the essential features of the concept in as few words as possible.Plantsurfer (talk) 18:11, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, there we go. Finally I can feel like I'm doing something important on this page. Here goes. "First of all, evolution itself is not the change. Change arises in genetic mutations, meiotic recombinations in crossover, and loads of other factors like transposons, viral infections, blah blah. Evolution is actually "quality control". It decides which of those random changes will be passed on to the next generation, by virtue of a simple test: all contestants are challenged to a race to see who can reproduce most successfully. Resources are not infinite. Not all of them will achieve their goal. But because the random differences between members of a population are genetic, they can be passed on through reproduction. And chances are that those mutations that made a positive difference to survival and reproduction will be the ones that make it to the next round." Now, of course, that paragraph isn't going into the article as it is. But it's my best attempt at a concise summary of what evolution really is. Did I nail it? Baconfry (talk) 18:53, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
How about starting with "Evolution is the incremental accumulations of inherited characteristics of biological populations over successive generations"?--Mr Fink (talk) 19:35, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Accumulation?? do mammals still have the genes for fins? The possibility of loss must be accommodated also.Plantsurfer (talk) 20:02, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Technically speaking, (a population) can accumulate and or inherit a net loss of inherited characteristics: both the acquisition and loss of biological features are characteristic changes that can be inherited by successive generations. That, and the limbs of mammals and all other tetrapods are, technically speaking either fins or heavily modified fins.--Mr Fink (talk) 21:09, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Hairlessness is a change that can be inherited, yes?
Not in my experience, lol! Where is this going? Plantsurfer (talk) 22:26, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Notwithstanding my feeling that the opening statements are somehow inadequate, I have to concede that it is hard to improve on them. I also note that the wording of the first sentence is, whether by accident or design, almost verbatim that of the title of this article: Forbes, A. A. & Krimmel, B. A. (2010) Evolution Is Change in the Inherited Traits of a Population through Successive Generations. Nature Education Knowledge 3(10):6. I suggest that if we are going to go with that definition it would be appropriate to cite this as a source. It would also provide a reason to fix the wording. Plantsurfer (talk) 10:24, 27 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Taking a step back this discussion seems to be based on the idea that we need to make evolution sound more "momentous"? Is that how scientific concepts should be explained though? I would say that the current wording did indeed come about based upon different aims, i.e. to try to distill the real facts of the matter, keeping in mind that the word is used very flexibly, and not always for momentous things.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 16:40, 27 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"symbolised evolution"

A few minutes ago, I edited the caption of an image on this page from "As evolution became widely accepted in the 1870s, caricatures of Charles Darwin with an ape or monkey body symbolised evolution." to "As evolution became widely accepted in the 1870s, caricatures of Charles Darwin with an ape or monkey body were used to satirise evolution." I was reverted by User:Dave souza, with the edit summary "phrasing correct per source, see Browne". I've checked Browne's book, and I do not see how it supports the word "symbolise" as opposed to "satirise". Indeed, it specifically mentions that "the Parisian satirical journal La Petite Lune dangled him in the guise of a monkey". I would appreciate some clarification from Dave souza as to why he feels the "symbolise" wording better reflects the source. —Mr. Granger (talk · contribs) 20:04, 24 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong cartoon, the one on the page is from The Hornet; on p. 377 Browne discusses how Darwin's beard was a bonus for cartoonists, "his general hairiness begged to be turned into animal fur. Add a tail, and there was an image that shrieked of ape or monkey ancestors". Re the Hornet image, "Such a picture of Darwin-as-ape or Darwin-as-monkey readily identified him as the author of the theory in the same way as a military longboot might have identified the Duke of Wellington". p. 378 "A hairy apish Darwin and a tree became readily recognisable images of evolution–perhaps as recognisable to Victorians as the double helix of DNA is to people today". The double helix is a symbol of genetics, and over the pages listed Browne covers how Darwin-as-ape was used in a symbolic way that didn't occur with Huxley or Wallace. The effect to a large effect promoted evolutionary ideas rather than attacking them: "Indeed this interweaving of evolutionary theory and portraits of Darwin probably contributed materially to the sense that evolutionism and Darwinism were one and the same thing." These were satirists or comedic cartoonists using a symbol, not necessarily "satirising evolution". The La Petite Lune image satirises "how Darwin's ideas were taken up by positivists" such as Auguste Comte and seems to be satirising materialist philosophy rather than evolution. A complex few pages, the point in my view is that Darwin-as-ape became as popular symbol, much appreciated by Darwin himself, rather than the attacks on evolution so familiar in the modern creation-evoution controversy. So, in my opinion "used to satirise evolution" is wrong, and misleading to a modern reader. Got any alternative suggestions for the wording? . . dave souza, talk 22:24, 24 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the detailed explanation. It sounds like you're right to use "symbolise". —Mr. Granger (talk · contribs) 22:53, 24 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]