Wikipedia talk:Article titles

Does DIFFCAPS enjoy community support?

Does Wikipedia:Article_titles#Using_minor_details_to_naturally_disambiguate_articles, aka DIFFCAPS, enjoy community support? As discussed at Wikipedia:Move_review/Log/2014_October#Sex_Tape_.28film.29, the RM at Talk:Sex Tape (film) contains evidence of discord. Are capitals enough to disambiguate in most cases? Do readers typing or following explicitly capitalised terms like "Sex Tape" obviously want that an article covering that composition title, not the general uncapitalised topic? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:54, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're asking. That section says "Titles of distinct articles may differ only in their detail. ... Certain applications of this policy are often heavily debated." I agree that it's heavily debated. It's not clear what the text means when it says "this policy" as there's no policy statement there, as far as I can see. I do agree that it is sometimes done, and often objected to. Dicklyon (talk) 04:07, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

"Certain applications of this policy are often heavily debated" I think confuses. I read it as saying certain applications, such as discussed in this second paragraph, are often heavily debated, and are therefore not to be considered dogmatic policy. Or does that sentence retrospectively weaken what you have already read in the first paragraph? "Sex Tape" seems extremely straightforward an example. Is this clearly disambiguated from "Sex tape", or is it "heavily debated"? Personally, I am uncommitted, but dislike this policy's unhelpfulness to even a straightforward example. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:19, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I think the main point is that disambiguating by case alone is usually heavily debated, though sometimes done. I don't see any suggestion of a policy in that. Dicklyon (talk) 05:56, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

So why is in the policy? Wouldn't it fit better at Wikipedia:Disambiguation. And reading on... Why is there a subsection on Conciseness under Precision and disambiguation? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:15, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

• I don't claim to speak for the community, but DIFFCAPS enjoys my support. I think that small differences such as a difference in spacing or capitalization are sufficient to distinguish two otherwise identical titles if there is no reason to expect readers to search for the uncapitalized version using capital letters, and vice versa. bd2412 T 17:11, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
  • I agree with BD2412. The "heavily debated" paragraph was added this year [1], and has no place in policy. Shall we add a similar clause to WP:USPLACE because that guideline is often "heavily debated"? Of course not, and this one should be removed. --В²C ☎ 19:57, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Without that, it merely says it's sometimes done, without fully reflecting the reality. In any case, pretty much none of WP:AT is what one would normally call "policy", since it's pretty unspecific about what we must do. It would make more sense to call it a guideline. Those who interpret "Titles of distinct articles may differ only in their detail" as license to cut titles to the shortest possible do not receive wide support at WP. Dicklyon (talk) 15:40, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

I closed a move review that is of relevence to this discussion. In my opinion, the addition of the second paragraph to WP:DIFFCAPS means the status of WP:DIFFCAPS needs to be resolved before it can be applied as policy. --Tóraí (talk) 23:39, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

• It's not the status so much as the application. It has been noted in several move discussions that there are several categories of things, like job titles, recipe names, and common names of animals and plants, which readers may expect to be capitalized even where common name usage is intended. bd2412 T 01:48, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Diffcaps rewritten

Okay, fair point--the first part of that sentence had to go. Here's the revised version of the first sentence of that second paragraph:

This form of disambiguation may not be sufficient if one article is far more significant on an encyclopedic level or far more likely to be searched for than the other.

So, BD2412, Tóraí, Born2cycle, -SmokeyJoe, Dicklyon and any others--what do you think? The reason that paragraph even exists is I wanted to clarify (based on actual results of actual RM's) that consensus has determined that differentiating by caps is okay some of the time and not enough some of the time (for an example of the former, see the canonical Red Meat; for an example of the latter, see Friendly Fire). The difference is based in the notability of the two topics as well as how often we would expect the "wrong" capitalization to be used, and consensus determines that. Red Slash 22:45, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

• I agree with that. Good work. bd2412 T 01:31, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
• The JESUS (album) example is a red link. Would be better if the Red Meat and Friendly Fire examples were given since they are actual examples in practice. --Tóraí (talk) 22:40, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

How to treat "like" as a preposition

"like" is a verb, an adverb, a noun, a conjunction, and a preposition. For prepositions no more than four letters, WP:NCCAPS discourages uppercasing them. I don't get the difference between Talk:Love You like a Love Song and Talk:I Like It Like That. Recently, there are many opposes in Talk:On a Night Like This, which is not yet closed. Can "like" be a special exception as a preposition, thanks to common usage of capitalization? (Off-topic: As also being a conjunction, "like" is a subordinating type, not coordinating, so I guess [as long as it's not a preposition] uppercasing "Like" is okay.) --George Ho (talk) 18:49, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Note... this is all about whether the word "like" in the title should be capitalized or not. I am sure that the MOS fanatics will disagree, but my feeling is that we should base the stylization of our title on how the majority of the sources (that are independent of the song) do when they discuss the song. If they normally capitalize the word "like" when talking about the song, so should we. If not, then we should not either. Blueboar (talk) 20:33, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

"Like" can be anything but a preposition; "like" is a preposition. The sources are not grammar experts. Capitalizing many words is okay IF they are part of proper noun, but capitalizing some others may not be due to formatting in guides outside Wikipedia. Also, there is no guideline or policy on how "like"/"Like" must be treated. Write an essay perhaps? --George Ho (talk) 20:47, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Actually... according to Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Titles, the title should be On a Night Like This - with the title of the song italicized. Unless there is some other name that the song goes by that is more frequently used. Blueboar (talk) 20:56, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Read MOS:CT, which doesn't mention page move proposals and article titles. --George Ho (talk) 21:16, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

In other words, we seem to have multiple guidelines that relate to the issue, and they give conflicting guidance. I which case, I would say that there is no firm wiki-wide consensus (and the default would be to leave the title as it currently is). Blueboar (talk) 00:31, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

How do we stabilize these related guidelines and policies regarding titling pages? We have cases, like dot the i and Star Trek Into Darkness, putting them in tough spots without local consensuses affecting them. I did the RMs to test stability and effectiveness of rules. As it turns out, the whole community is inconsistent on spelling and capitalizing. --George Ho (talk) 01:09, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

English is a crazy language. Hypercorrection and revisionism doesn't solve that. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:37, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

I would not say that the community is "inconsistent" on these issues; rather, I would say that the community consistently applies the styling used by the author of a creative work where that styling says something particularly important about the work itself. In the above cases, the first author intentionally used "dot the i" to invoke the expression that means to pay attention to small details like the dot over a lowercase "i"; and the second author intentionally used "Star Trek Into Darkness" to play with the dual meanings of "trek" as both a noun (which is expected in the phrase "star trek" and as a verb. There are many titles where the capitalization of prepositions or like nuances are of no consequence. Where they are of consequence, they should be used. bd2412 T 02:15, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Within the range of standard title cases, where the capitalization styling has no nuance or consequence, follow the MOS. Where they are of consequence, defer to predominant styling seen in sources. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:44, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

I have a very different view... I think we should always defer to the predominant styling seen in sources that are independent of the subject

Note that the phrase independent of the subject is important... use in independent sources tells you that any non-standard styling is accepted as being part of the name of the subject (and thus more than mere "advertizing" or "vanity".) For those who are hardliners about the rules of grammar... don't panic... The reality is that the vast majority of independent sources tend to follow standard grammar rules and avoid non-standard stylizations... unless there is a good reason not to. Blueboar (talk) 11:17, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

I am uncomfortable being seen on the opposing side of that view. Wikipedia should be guided by its sources. I guess that I have been influenced by MOS aficionados sometimes encountered in RM discussion, but not well represented here. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:36, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Are you assuming that the predominant styling is more-or-less a standard title case? Or are you assuming that few independent reputable sources will copy silly pointless styling? These questions of following source-used styling or the MOS are not really questions of grammar are they? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:24, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

They can be grammar questions... Independent sources generally do follow standard grammar/capitalization rules. So... when (in the context of discussing a specific subject/topic) a significant majority suddenly don't follow the standard rules, I think we need to pay attention to that fact. Blueboar (talk) 11:55, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

What to do with works, like Smells Like Teen Spirit and other titles with "Like"/"like"? Should I also mention titles with "But"/"but" --George Ho (talk) 18:15, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

• "Smells like Teen Spirit" would just look wrong. I think we're entitled, as a rule, to capitalize words where not capitalizing them just looks wrong. bd2412 T 18:27, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

"Like" in the title of the Nirvana song is a preposition with just four (not five) letters. Why should common usage (especially of unreliable sources) or common misconception make "Like" an exception to the existing MOS? --George Ho (talk) 18:40, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Primarily because we are an encyclopedia, not the grammar police. The purpose of this project is to record and document what is encyclopedic in the world, not to establish and impose our own POV about what things should be called or how they should be presented. See WP:PROMOTION, WP:NOTHOWTO. bd2412 T 02:01, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

If we can't change the NCCAPS and the MOS:CAPS, then how much patience must I build before the future RMs that disregard these guidelines come up? As for WP:NOT, it (in principle) neither encourages nor discourages titling, spelling, and capitalizing. WP:NOT is body-related, not title-related. I would have used "content-", but content includes body article and page title, making "content" vague at best. --George Ho (talk) 02:20, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

WP:NOT is encyclopedia-related. There is no part of this encyclopedia to which it doesn't apply. bd2412 T 04:18, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

WP:NOT doesn't discuss specifically titling (unless I overlooked). --George Ho (talk) 05:44, 26 October 2014 (UTC) Edit:I missed always number 8 of "Wikipedia is not a manual, guidebook, textbook, or scientific journal": "Academic language. Texts should be written for everyday readers, not just for academics. Article titles should reflect common usage, not academic terminology, whenever possible." --George Ho (talk) 05:48, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

• New discussion on this topic at WT:MOSCAPS#Composition titles. This relates directly to WP:AT, since it involves clarification of the relationship and often outright conflict between WP:COMMONNAME and WP:MOSCAPS (or WP:NCCAPS). It has been a recurring problem lately in requested moves and requires that we get beyond local consensus and look at the root of the problem. One solution would seem to be adding an explicit statement in WP:MOSCAPS that common name does not imply common style, and that the MOS should be used to determine style (including capitalization) in article titles. The other solution would seem to be adding an explicit direction that the style guide is only to be used for titles in cases in which the most common stylization of the title is unclear, which would be closer to the way we negotiate WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Please help establish consensus at WT:MOSCAPS. Dekimasuよ! 00:35, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Date ranges as titles

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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There has been a rash of requested moves lately over several albums whose titles as given in reliable sources are date ranges, with the aim of adding disambiguation (usually (album) and/or the band name) to the title:

• Talk:1978–1990#Requested move
• Talk:1979–1983#Requested moves
• Talk:1982–2000#Requested_moves
• Talk:1983–1991#Requested move
• Talk:1992–2002#Requested move

Since it involves broader naming issues, I thought I'd ask folks here for their input on the general issue of using date ranges as article titles. Currently, as far as I can tell, the only date ranges that are used as titles (and redirects at that) are for articles on the decades of the 17th through 21st centuries, starting with 1600-1609. Otherwise, I am unaware of any date ranges that serve as article titles.

In the RM discussions, the arguments to add disambiguation are that the date ranges correspond to various events in history that are more notable than the album with that date (e.g., 1979-1983 was the First Thatcher ministry). Disambiguation is thus necessary to avoid confusing readers who might be looking for those specific events. A similar argument is that readers will see 1979-1983 in the search box and think it will be a timeline article about all the notable events that occurred in that time frame. Finally, there is the argument that the titles are not precise enough, because they do not look like album titles, and so adding (album) is necessary to identify them.

The oppose arguments are that a) these are the actual names of these albums, so using them without disambiguation would be fine, as long as they are not ambiguous; b) there are no other articles or topics on WP that use these dates ranges as titles (or even redirects); c) readers are highly unlikely to use these date ranges to search for events that happened then (i.e., the first Thatcher ministry is never known as, or searched for, as "1979-1983"), just in general, and because WP does not have any such timeline articles.

So with that as background, what do folks here think about the appropriateness of using date ranges as titles? Dohn joe (talk) 14:03, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

• I think these titles are imprecise, and that the articles downloaded are then astonishing. Date ranges (four digit ranges) are reasonably expected to be historical periods defined by the endpoints. A commercial product is unanticipated and astonishing. A little more description is needed. Evidence in support of this can found in the opening words of the articles, for example: "1978–1990 (sometimes The Go-Betweens 1978–1990)". --SmokeyJoe (talk) 14:55, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
  • I agree. Do a Google Books search for any of these "titles" and you will get many more returns where the date range in question is used to identify something else. bd2412 T 15:15, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
    • Of course, lots of important things happened across any given date range. But those events are not actually identified by the date range. Again, no one calls the first Thatcher ministry "1979-1983". The point is 1) people won't search for an event using the date range very often; and 2) even if they do, we don't have any articles using those date ranges, nor are we likely to (unless someone plans to create the ~5,000 articles per century that would cover each conceivable range). Does that make sense? Dohn joe (talk) 15:38, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
• Using the name of a topic as its title is never imprecise, unless we have another article on WP with a topic that is referred to in reliable sources with that name. The argument that an article can't have a name (alone) as its title because that name might be confused with some abstract concept that not only has no article on WP, but no coverage in reliable sources whatsoever, is absurd. It would mean the renaming of countless existing titles. --В²C ☎ 17:34, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
  • WP:AT instructs that "the choice of article title should put the interests of a general audience before those of specialists". Any suggestion that the relatively minute set of readers who would recognize "1983-1991" as the title of an album by the British goth band This Mortal Coil (and not simply a year range) are not a very specialized subset of readers seems quite odd. The general audience, even if we consider them in this case to be those specifically reading about music, are understandably likely to misunderstand the title as a date range... and per policy it's the general audience, not specialists, for whom we must consider titles.

    As for other titles that might also be afoul of this principal, perhaps some of them do indeed merit discussion; if so, they can be sensibly considered on a case-by-case basis as the community deems appropriate. ╠╣uw [talk] 19:36, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

    • You're misinterpreting clear intent. You don't have to be an expert to recognize 1983-1991 as an album title; you merely have to be familiar with that album. That's all that we require of our titles. You don't like that, but that's an indisputable fact about WP titles. Any selection of a few dozen clicks on SPECIAL:RANDOM will confirm. --В²C ☎ 19:54, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
      • You're misinterpreting the policy. It says "subject area". A specific album's title scarcely qualifies as a "subject area". Omnedon (talk) 19:58, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
        • I'm not referring to policy. The RANDOM test verifies actual convention, which policy is supposed to reflect, used to reflect, but because of a relatively recent change, currently does not reflect. --В²C ☎ 21:11, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
      • B2C: Yes, to have any reasonable chance of recognizing "1983-1991" as an album title you must know the name of the compilation album of the music of British goth band This Mortal Coil, and that bit of trivia is clearly very specialized knowledge. Wikipedia titling policy is quite clear on this: "The choice of article titles should put the interests of... a general audience before those of specialists." Is there any reason whatsoever to believe that even a music-centric general audience is likely to correctly interpret this title, by itself, as referring to an album name rather than misinterpreting it as referring more generally to a chronological period? Obviously there are a various considerations to be weighed here, but these particular titles run sufficiently afoul of WP:AT's clear policy directive, and are likely enough to be misinterpreted by a large majority of readers, that clarification seems quite justified. ╠╣uw [talk] 00:03, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
        • Huw, to have any reasonable chance of recognizing (clicks on SPECIAL:RANDOM) El Chavo del Ocho as a sitcom, you must know the name of the this 1970s Mexican sitcom, and that bit of trivia is clearly very specialized knowledge. This reasoning applies to probably more than half of our titles. It's not a good reason to change any of them, including this one.

          Is there any reason whatsoever to believe that even a Spanish speaking general audience is likely to correctly interpret this title, by itself, as referring to a 1970s sitcom rather than misinterpreting it as referring more generally to an 8 year old boy?

          If this "likely misinterpretation" reasoning justifies adding clarification to these date titles, then it justifies adding clarification to countless titles, including El Chavo del Ocho. It's all unnecessary disambiguation. Let us not hoist the responsibility of article leads onto article titles. --В²C ☎ 19:19, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

          • No, you're missing the problem of misinterpretation. That the current titles are likely to be actually misinterpreted (and not merely unrecognizable) is a key concern here, which is why your "El Chavo del Ocho" example is not equivalent. Most readers, even if unfamiliar with "El Chavo del Ocho", will not immediately misinterpret the name as referring to something entirely different than what it is. However, it's entirely reasonable to assume that practically all Wikipedia readers will misinterpret "1978-1990" as something other than what that article is actually about.

            Put simply: if it's likely that a great majority of our readers will not only fail to recognize a title but actually misinterpret a title then it probably is not sufficiently meeting WP:AT's clear policy requirement that we put the needs of the general audience ahead of specialists. ╠╣uw [talk] 20:18, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

            • At worst they will misinterpret it to mean an arbitrary date range that is essentially meaningless to them anyway. So what? How is that substantively different from an unrecognizable title like El Chavo del Ocho? And exactly in what context might this misinterpretation occur anyway? --В²C ☎ 21:26, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

I've tried this SPECIAL:RANDOM test three times now, and each time I do it 70-80% of the results are recognisable. To continue: 40. Latirus fallax some kind of Latin genus, 41. Tala (music) some kind of Asian music, 42. Dunlap Exclusive a tyre? [totally wrong, a rapper], 43. I'm a Man Not a Boy probably a song, totally user-unfriendly [correct], 44. National Child Traumatic Stress Network what it says, 45. Pascal Pinon (band) band, 46. Utricularia sect. Setiscapella genus, probably plant [correct], 47. Øystein Drillestad a Norwegian bio, 48. 1993 Gamba Osaka season obvious, 49. Earl Cain an American bio [wrong a manga character], 50. DoubleTree by Hilton Hotel Los Angeles Downtown obvious, 51. Dow Gardens gardens, 52. Henry Whilden Lockwood American bio, 53. Ferdows (disambiguation) a dab page, 54. Treehouse of Horror XX comedy film [near enough], 55. Mehmet Mehmet Turkish bio, 56. David Petrarca American bio, 57. The Texas (locomotive), 58. Alex Gregory English-speaking bio, 59. Too many men sports rule, 60. Lytico-bodig disease disease, 61. Warner River a river, 62. Irma Airport an airport, 63. Carpobrotus muirii a Latin genus named after a Scotsman called Muir, 64. Table Mountain Glacier, 65. Szilárd Németh (politician), 66. LithTech some tech company, 67. Cyclical tactical asset allocation what it says, 68. Scarlet Feather probably a book [yes, not super helpful], 69. Mingiyan Semenov Russian, 70. Maslinovo place in Eastern Europe, 71. Mikael Harutyunyan Armenian, 72. Daniel Ross (philosopher), 73. Stigmella gimmonella genus, plant? [moth], 74. Raymond Redheffer, 75. Gold Beach Municipal Airport, 76. Sandhar place in India [no, caste in India], 77. Baghdad Central Station.......... only a couple of my results are as mysterious as El Chavo del Ocho, and even that isn't that mysterious, I would have said Spanish language film book or TV series and it was. Unlike "I'm a Man Not a Boy" a TV series doesn't have a singer so can't be made easier with an artist name.

I'm wondering why my SPECIAL:RANDOM results don't prove Born2cycle's claim, but instead show the opposite - that most titles are recognizable to readers in that project area.

None of these except "Scarlet Feather" and "I'm a Man Not a Boy" compares with "Live in Dublin 2", "My Baby I'm Waiting", "Rap Out the Bag", or "Her Very Best II" which are the sort of pop product titles shorn of the most relevant bit of information which no pop fan can identify. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:11, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

I started doing the same, my first random article was N (New York City Subway service) and the article says it is called N Broadway Local. After than I broke down in tears of laughter and couldn't continue. --Richhoncho (talk) 19:00, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Interesting. My first random article was Eklahare. Any thoughts on what that is? No peeking.... Dohn joe (talk) 19:05, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

I cheated, but Taradi will most certainly interest you. --Richhoncho (talk) 19:11, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

That is interesting. Looks like an IP vandal snuck into a little-watched article and got away with it. Until now.... Dohn joe (talk) 20:19, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Well spotted, but it should now be moved to Dioscorea something or other. As per the project naming. --Richhoncho (talk) 20:56, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes, except according to the sources, it doesn't have an accepted binomial name, just D. spp. I don't know how WP:FAUNA handles that. Plus, this seems to be an article on the food usage as opposed to the scientific description, which is an exception to FAUNA. I don't know.... Dohn joe (talk) 21:04, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

WOW. Two years ago[2]. --В²C ☎ 20:33, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

You're counting titles of topics with names that are inherently recognizable (recognizable to those unfamiliar with the topic), titles of topics that don't have names and so must have descriptive (and therefore recognizable) titles, and titles that are necessarily disambiguated. Such examples do not demonstrate that we favor unnecessary disambiguation or descriptive titles over the name when the name is not inherently recognizable. My point is only about topics with unique names that are not inherently recognizable - that we don't normally disambiguate them. The challenge is to use SPECIAL:RANDOM to find topics with names that don't require disambiguation, and see how many of those titles or are never-the-less disambiguated or are descriptive, as demonstrated with the plain name either being a red link or a redirect to the disambiguated/descriptive title. Good luck with that. --В²C ☎ 17:30, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Richhoncho (talk · contribs), N (New York City Subway service) is an example of necessary disambiguation. Of course titles are likely to become inherently recognizable when they are disambiguated. There is no surprise or dispute about this. The issue is about titles with names that don't require disambiguation because there are no other uses of that name with articles on Wikipedia. Keep going with RANDOM until you find such a title that is never-the-less disambiguated. Let us know what you find. I bet you'll have to go through hundreds if not thousands of clicks to find one, but along the way you'll find many like Taradi and Eklahare that are not disambiguated. That's my point - we normally don't disambiguate a title just because the name is not inherently recognizable. And if we did, we'd have to change thousands of titles. --В²C ☎ 19:42, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

В²C. I found your very recent post at Talk:1978–1990, where you said, That expression should be the TITLE of the article about that album BECAUSE IT IS THE NAME OF THE ALBUM and because that expression has no other use on Wikipedia. (my bold) EXACTLY the same applies to N Broadway Local yet you have a contra argument. I refer to my comments below, I am serious. Are you? --Richhoncho (talk) 20:25, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

You say I have a contra argument to using N Broadway Local as the title? I don't.

My comments were exclusively about what I referenced: N (New York City Subway service). That title disambiguates N and is necessary disambiguation because N is ambiguous. Whether the correct title is actually N Broadway Local is entirely beside the point. Either way, we don't have an example of community supported unnecessary disambiguation. --В²C ☎ 22:09, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes I'm counting titles of topics with names that are inherently recognizable, and I'm saying that when I try SPECIAL:RANDOM the results I get are all meaningful except artist works with the artist removed. In any case it totally disproves your use of SPECIAL:RANDOM to prove that en.wikipedia is a minefield of titles unrecognisable to ultra-specialists. 78. N (New York City Subway service), 79. Eklahare place in Asia [correct], 80. Clan MacLeod of Lewis, 81. Association of Panamerican Athletics, 82. Siodło, Masovian Voivodeship place in Poland, 83. Merrick Systems, Inc. some US tech co, 84. Nora Fontaine Davidson American, 85. The Middle Men something meaningless, book or film or TV? [TV] 86. The Vagabond King operetta [okay I knew that one], 87. Rough Trade Live! Direct to Disc cd, 88. Urjanet, Inc. tech-co, 89. Basaragi Inam probably a place in Asia [correct], 90. Paolo Abbate Italian bio, 91. [Trachyderes maxillosus]] Latin genus, with a jaw by the look of it [correct], 91. Mesomedes ancient Greek, 92. South Australian Register newspaper? [correct], 90. The Greyest of Blue Skies (album) album by an anonymous artist who kept his name a secret out of extreme shyness...

So again, my results aren't the magical mystery tour you claimen.wp is. None of these was massively misleading or meaningless... except for The Middle Men and The Vagabond King perhaps, which if hadn't known would have been also. But neither have clear author/artists to make titling easy. I think you should at this point not use this SPECIAL:RANDOM argument again. You may also wish to listen to what HUW and Omedon have said about you mis-reading/intepreting WP:AT policy. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:24, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

You're still missing the point. Again, my point is only about topics that have unique names which are not inherently recognizable. Get it? It's only about those topics. Whether they comprise 99%, 90%, 50%, 10% or 1% of our titles is immaterial. However many it is, they are very rarely disambiguated for the purpose of increasing recognizability. I'm not going to stop making a point about how we title articles on WP, and always have, which is clearly true. --В²C ☎ 19:59, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

• A date range does not meet "Precision – The title is sufficiently precise to unambiguously identify the article's subject and distinguish it from other subjects." Some editors may argue that anybody looking for an article should find it but they fail to appreciate the other side of the coin, nobody should land on an article they are not interested in. They may also argue that there is no policy or guideline that says we have to consider mislead readers, but that’s not the point, it’s why we have WP:COMMONSENSE and WP:IAR - because no guideline or policy is applicable in every instance. A continual shrillness of opposition to adding disambiguation (remember 20% of ALL articles are ambiguated anyway) to an article title to help readers just because we have "policy" or a "guideline" is more telling of the editor than Wikipedia.--Richhoncho (talk) 19:16, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Do you seriously believe someone looking for something other than the album is likely to enter 1978–1990 in the search box? And how is having that title be a redirect to the disambiguated title going to address this anyway? No one is suggesting creating a dab page at 1978-1990. What would we put there besides a link to the album? A list of 13 numbers? Objections to these titles are based upon absurdity piled on top of more absurdity. --В²C ☎ 19:32, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
    • The absurdity is that we have one or two editors turning up to every music related RM (and probably every other RM too) who do not contribute to WP in any other way other than repeating "the same old" in opposition to editors who are contributing by adding or adding to articles on a daily basis. Furthermore, every time somebody raises a different view to these self-serving few there are questions and queries raised which border on harassment. A RM is a discussion to reach a consensus, not a game of pass the parcel or musical chairs. I shall, in future, listen to these sirens of doom, who think adding a small descriptive word to an article title will destroy WP with the same consideration they listen to me - I shall not be listening. --Richhoncho (talk) 03:30, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
      • Perfect. When answering the questions you've been asked would reveal the paucity of reasonableness in your position, divert with an Ad hominem attack. --В²C ☎ 03:49, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

The irony is that "Do you seriously believe.." "paucity of reasonableness" and so on is itself an attack, you constantly attack the intelligence, logic, knowledge, of other editors - which was one of the issues leading to your topic ban and your pledge IncidentArchive839#Born2cycle. And yet anyone clicking on your contribs since the topic ban will see what they see. Whether it is Talk:Hillary Rodham Clinton or the recent interest in a Paul McCartney compilation, or whatever the specific incident is, the same pattern comes out.

Aside from this you seem to lack understanding of the difficulties facing mobile phone readers of wikipedia, which on a technical level should disqualify any editor without that understanding from titling discussions, or indeed trying to direct titling policy for an encyclopedia while not making significant article space contribs. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:53, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

@In ictu oculi. Not forgetting the accusation, "the Objections to these titles are based upon absurdity piled on top of more absurdity." is a attack on any editor who fails to agree with a certain POV. --Richhoncho (talk) 19:37, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Attacking what people are saying is not attacking the people saying it. If I say, "You polluted lemons with Parisian nucleotides", telling me that doesn't make sense is not attacking me (even if it does make sense). If you refer to me as a fool for saying it, that is attacking me. The essence of WP:NPA is Comment on content, not on the contributor. Statements about how weak certain objections are is commenting on content, not on the contributors. --В²C ☎ 21:58, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

The irony of Rich's comment is the person pushing these moves seriously only pushes these pedantic title changes. Yet Rich feels people like me who oppose them are the problem. Calidum ^{Talk To Me} 22:10, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Hi Calidum. That's a double irony. I wasn't thinking of you, but if you think the hat fits... In fairness I am happy to ask you the question (with an additional one for you) which you may not have been asked before. I am sure you will be happy to answer (and depending on your answers I might be able to re-evaluate my position which is why the question is continually asked). Please note my questions refer only to music titles.

1. Without reference to any guideline or policy (which can change, as we know), why is it always a bad idea to add the name of an artist to a song/album article title?
2. Why should a general guideline take precedence over a specific guideline?

Cheers. --Richhoncho (talk) 08:09, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Because I don't feel it's realistic to say someone looking for information on Margaret Thatcher's term in office will do so by entering a date range. I wouldn't type in 1939-1945 if I wanted to find info on WWII. I'd look up the name. As to recognizability, one could argue about half the pages on Wikipedia would be unrecognizable. For example, I doubt a lot of non-Americans (and many Americans) know who Spiro Agnew is, but would you seriously suggest moving that article to include US Vice President in the title? Calidum ^{Talk To Me} 13:19, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Response Calidum. Please read and answer my questions. There is no disagreement between us in your comments above, but I am enquiring in regard to song and album titles only. This discussion is not about MT or SA. --Richhoncho (talk) 13:37, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

I think I've answered question one. But basically, on Wikipedia article titles are only disambiguated if necessary and I see no reason to treat albums and songs differently, as several editors at WT:SONG have pointed out. As for question two, I'm not sure what specific guideline you're referencing, as WP:SONGDAB seems to me to fall in line with the overall guideline that disambiguation be done when necessary. Calidum ^{Talk To Me} 14:51, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

No you still don't see it. What some of you are saying is it's not the Done thing to disambiguate unnecessarily, whereas my question is what (in relation to songs and albums only) is bad about it? And no, nobody, not at WT:SONG or here or anywhere else has managed to answer. It's always dodge the question. All we get back is references to Paris, Margaret Thatcher, Spiro Agnew and the like. If your opinion is right, then it should be easy to prove without reference to non-song items, policy or guideline because it is logical, commonsense and clear. If you don't mind I'll return to my second question and songdab on your talkpage to keep the primary discussion on track. Cheers. --Richhoncho (talk) 15:22, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Asking if someone is being serious is not an attack. Pointing out that another's position is lacking reasonableness is not an attack. If you have anything substantive, not just more ad hominem attacks, to contribute here, I'll be happy to respond further. --В²C ☎ 19:19, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

• I would definitely expect an unadorned date range to point to an article summarizing the historical events that took place withing that date range... and would be surprised to end up at an article about a music album. When a date range is used as the "official" title of something else (a book, movie, music album, etc) I think it needs to be disambiguated, so that readers better know what the article is about. If there were to be a notable compilation of Mozart sonatas, published under the album title "1782-1791", I think it quite reasonable to disambiguate our article title as 1782-1791 (Mozart compilation) or something similar. Blueboar (talk) 14:51, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

  Thanks, Blueboar, but let me ask: what would we be disambiguating from? There are no other topics on WP with these date ranges. Again - events that occur in these date ranges are rarely, if ever, identified or sought by those dates ranges; people, including our readers and editors, use the name of the event in question to search for that event. So what are we disambiguating from? This is not about what we would expect when someone thrusts a bare date range in our face (when does this happen?), but what actually happens when our readers and editors use the encyclopedia. Does that make sense? Dohn joe (talk) 14:59, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

I disagree... this is all about expectations. That's what the "principle of least surprise" is all about. We have to remember that not all readers come to Wikipeida with a specific topic search in mind... there are those who simply surf Wikipedia for interesting articles to read. The typical surfer will expect that an article with a non-disambiguated date range as its title will be a summary of the historical events that occurred during that date range (I certainly would expect that). They will be surprised to end up at an article about something else (a book, movie, music album, etc). On the other hand, that same surfer will not be surprised to end up at an article about something else if our article title is disambiguated (because the disambiguation tells them what the article is about). Meanwhile, a reader who is not surfing... but looking for an article about a specific book, movie, music album etc (one that uses a date range as its title) will still be able to find the article they are looking for, again because the disambiguation makes it clear what the article is about.

In these cases, I think the non-disambiguated title should be reserved for a potential article on historical events... while other articles can take a parenthetical disambiguation format Date-Date (disambiguation). Then everyone knows what to expect. Blueboar (talk) 15:49, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Two questions: 1) Why reserve a title for an article that will likely never be written? There are nearly 5,000 potential date-range titles per century, and to date, the only ones that have been created are the "decade ranges" from 1600-1609 to the present; and 2) why punish the reader who actually knows the name of these albums (having seen them in other reliable sources), types "1978-1983" into the search box, and hits "enter", only to be sent to a search results page - not even a regular dab page? I understand that there are logical misgivings about the current setup, but do you see the potential for real-world harm to actual users of the encyclopedia? Dohn joe (talk) 16:31, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

It does not "punish" the reader who is looking for info on (for example) the Go-Betweens' album 1978-1990 to have that article at the disambiguated title 1978-1983 (Go-Betweens album)... the disambiguated title will still show up as one of the first few entries in the search box.

No one is ever hurt by disambiguation... but if even one reader can potentially be aided by disambiguation, then isn't it worth while?. Blueboar (talk) 17:19, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

But I'm saying people will be hurt in this case. Someone who types the album title "1978-1983" and directly hits "enter", without looking at the search box - which is a very common practice - will be misdirected away from the article they're looking for, and not even to a dab page, but to an unorganized search results page. Sending those people to a search results page (again, not a dab page) instead of directly to the article they want is an actual harm, wouldn't you agree? Dohn joe (talk) 17:36, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

With due respect, Dohn joe, WP can't legislate against stupidity. Best we can do is assist the people to find the article they are looking for and if they are interested in the Go-Betweens they will now find this article, too. --Richhoncho (talk) 21:25, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

One reason for disambiguation is to help readers find the article they are looking for... but another reason is to help readers distinguish topics, and weed out the articles on topics they are not interested in. By disambiguating the article on the Go-Betweens album, we let those readers who are not interested in the Go-Betweens (and are perhaps interested in history) know that the article in question isn't what they are looking for. Blueboar (talk) 11:59, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

I understand the purpose of disambiguation, and it can be helpful. But my question was whether you recognize the reverse. By removing the album title from article space, we would be making it impossible for the people who type the actual common name of the album to go directly to the article we know they want. And again, not even to a dab page, but to an unorganized search results page. As far as I know, this is unprecedented on WP. To borrow your phrasing, if even one reader is harmed by removing these titles from article space, isn't it worthwhile to keep the status quo? But let's start with the underlying question again - do you recognize the harm that this change would cause? Dohn joe (talk) 14:25, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry D j but asking this question is fantasy, no one in a million years is going to "type" the string "1.9..7..9..–..1..9..8..3.." and press enter because no one will ever remember such a non-notable string of years. What they'll do is enter the band name and make a guess at one of the years, which may not work because we're busy hiding band names with religious fervour. What was you answer to Blueboar's nail on the head "we let those readers who are not interested in the Go-Betweens (and are perhaps interested in history) know that the article in question isn't what they are looking for." - I can't see your response to that point. What is it? In ictu oculi (talk) 16:14, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

As I said above, I understand the purpose of disambiguation, and it can be very helpful. My question was to Blueboar, who presumably agrees that people who read about an album titled "1979-1983" in, say, The Rolling Stone Album Guide, may very well see that title and type it into the search box and hit enter. No guesswork or memory involved. My reality-based question, again, is whether Blueboar recognizes the harm to those readers if we remove these titles from article space. Dohn joe (talk) 17:51, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

And why, should Bauhaus fans be treated any better or different than others who may be interested in other subjects, including, but not exclusively:-

• The Struggle Inside the Socialist Workers Party, 1979-1983
• The Third Unheard: Connecticut Hip Hop 1979-1983
• Grandmaster ( flashback 1 1979 -1983 )
• Classic Material Edition#1 Part 1 (1979-1983)
• Patrol Boat (1979–1983)
• The Wadi El Ḥasā Archaeological Survey, 1979-1983
• Budgetary strategies for fiscal years 1979-1983
• Nigeria: Shehu Shagari's Presidency 1979-1983 - An Appraisal
• Not forgetting First Thatcher ministry 1979-1983.

And in answer to your question, anybody who has read about the album in RS will find it just as easy or easier at 1979-1983 (Bauhaus album) or similar. --Richhoncho (talk) 19:02, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Nope, you've missed the question as well. The question, once again, is based on the following very likely circumstance:

1) someone picks up or reads online Spin magazine;

2) this person sees the Bauhaus album called "1979-1983";

3) this person goes to WP, types "1979-1983" in the search box, and hits enter;

4a) this person currently gets taken straight to the album article, and is happy; or

4b) this person gets taken to a search results page, is forced is to hunt out the album article, and is sad.

The question is whether we recognize that we are hurting the WP experience for some number of reasonable readers if we allow 4b) to come to fruition. Dohn joe (talk) 19:42, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

I understood the question quite clearly, in fact I am going to reword it slightly. A man wants to cross the road (1) to buy a newspaper (2), walks out into the middle of the road without looking (3) and is run over and killed by a truck (4a/b). Should we ban trucks? Now you know why it is not worth answering. --Richhoncho (talk) 19:51, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Blueboar? Dohn joe (talk) 19:53, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Personally, I would ban Newspapers.... then the fellow would not have been crossing the road in the first place. Blueboar (talk) 23:14, 4 July 2014 (UTC) Oh... wait... you are asking if I have something else to say? Nah... stated my opinion... Not going to change it. Disambiguation does not harm anyone and helps many. Blueboar (talk) 23:20, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

So, just to be clear.... Your position is that someone who follows the path I laid out above and winds up at a search results page will not be harmed, wiki-speaking? Dohn joe (talk) 23:38, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Just to be clear... my position is that no one is harmed by disambiguating these titles, and many people will actually be actually helped by doing so. Thus, I support disambiguating them. 'Nuff said. Blueboar (talk) 22:38, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

I disagree on both counts. But hey - that's WP for ya.... Dohn joe (talk) 22:43, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

What a complete time sink and distraction from article space... In ictu oculi (talk) 03:32, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

• Disambiguate date ranges – to titles that are "sufficiently precise to unambiguously identify the article's subject", as the precision criterion suggests for a good title. Dicklyon (talk) 05:42, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
• Disambiguate per the precision criterion per Dicklyon, and per the least astonishment criterion. Adding "(album)" or "(The Foobars album)" is a good way of disambiguating. -sche (talk) 14:41, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
• Disambiguate date ranges – to titles that are "sufficiently precise to unambiguously identify the article's subject", as the precision criterion suggests for a good title. verbatim as User:Dicklyon In ictu oculi (talk) 14:45, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
• Disambiguate date ranges when disambiguation is required - when there is more than one article to which the given date range may refer. If there is only one article to which the date range may refer, it's just silly unnecessary disambiguation contrary to normal titling on Wikipedia to disambiguate the title of that article, and then redirect the date range in question to that article anyway. When there is only one article on WP to which that date range refers, then the date range itself is "sufficiently precise to unambiguously identify the article's subject", by definition. --В²C ☎ 15:45, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Note that this is an "Oppose" in context of the 3 above effectively "Support". It would have been helpful if it had been couched in that way. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:08, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes, support disambiguation when disambiguation is required: "when a single term is ambiguous—when it refers to more than one topic covered by Wikipedia". That's the Wikipedia way. --В²C ☎ 00:51, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

As regards "the Wikipedia way" that again is a recurrence of one of the issues in IncidentArchive839#Born2cycle your pledge, to try and consider that your way is not necessarily "the Wikipedia way". The above comment also shows that you are still reading "topic covered by Wikipedia" as "standalone title existing in Wikipedia" despite several editors on this page again indicating that is not. Further you have been given copious examples of dozens of "topic(s) covered" for 1978–1990 1979–1983 (First Thatcher ministry, 1979–83 Eastern Australian drought), 1982–2000 (South Lebanon conflict), 1983–1991 (82nd Aviation Brigade), 1992–2002 (Clipsal Powerhouse), these periods are all "topics covered" in article body, but not titles. This has been rehearsed many times. WP:DAB states clearly that "topic covered by Wikipedia" is a topic covered by Wikipedia in article body not in title-space only. A title is not a topic. A topic is not a title. If you intend to continue to almost exclusively operate in Talk pages of guidelines and editing guidelines rather than contribute significantly to article space it is necessary to take onboard the distinction between "topic" and "title". They are not the same thing. Do you understand this? In ictu oculi (talk) 02:24, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

That's not a totally unreasonable way to interpret those words, but luckily we have WP history to find out what it has always meant. Here is the WP:D lead from 2003:

Disambiguation in Wikipedia is the process of resolving the conflict that occurs when articles about two or more different topics have the same natural title. [3]

That's the Wikipedia way (not B2C's way). --В²C ☎ 05:05, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

No that's the way Wikipedia was in 2003, that's 11 years ago. If your point is that you are making a stand or some kind of rearguard action for a wholly title based approach to disambiguation, and that you disagree with WP:DAB as it is now, then fine but I suggest you make this clear. This link back to 2003 confirms concerns about your frequent citation of the WP:UNDAB essay instead of citing WP:DAB guidelines in RFCs and RMs, and supports previous suggestions that that essay should be userified as your WP:YOGHURT essay was. In ictu oculi (talk) 06:07, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

That's the narrow interpretation of WP's disambiguation mechanism. But there's still the precision criterion to consider, which is broader. Even if there is no other article that might go by the same title, a good title will be "sufficiently precise to unambiguously identify the article's subject"; a date range is not that, even if someone titles a work with it. The bare date range strongly suggests a topic this is NOT the article's subject, and is therefore not precise enough. Fixing this kind of ambiguity can also be called disambiguation. Dicklyon (talk) 05:33, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

If that was once the way, it was a mistake. Readers need titles to disambiguate from, to precisely identify, the topic covered from any other topic that the reader might reasonably expect to be covered by Wikipedia. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:52, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

I already said this below, but to try and clarify: a title must distinguish its subject from other subjects. Note that the "precision" criterion which states this does not talk about other Wikipedia articles. It talks about other subjects. Not all subjects have Wikipedia articles. A range of dates as an article title for an album does not distinguish its subject (an album) from other subjects. Omnedon (talk) 14:39, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

User:SmokeyJoe, indeed it was that way, and not just in 2003. That was just a random version I selected from before I started editing, to correct User:In ictu oculi's claim that it was "my way". The more ambiguous wording is relatively new. And the original wording was no mistake. Despite the disruptive efforts of a few, it still accurately reflects how most of our articles are titled and disambiguated. And it keeps titles simple, predictable and not subject to constant questioning, like this current debacle about a handful of date ranges each of which is the natural title for only one article on WP. What a colossally idiotic waste of time. There is no record of any users who are allegedly helped by such improvements actually complaining about insufficiently descriptive or insufficiently precise titles. The result of loosening up the wording at WP:D and WP:AT, primarily to rationalize the peculiar penchant of some to hoist upon article titles the lead's responsibility to describe the topic, has been a growing RM backlog, largely filled with nonsense like this, seemingly endless and definitely pointless arguing that has driven away probably scores of good editors - and no improvement to WP. It's really quite insane, and it's only getting worse. --В²C ☎ 21:28, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Irony of ironies -- B2C, of all people, complaining about endless and pointless arguing, and driving away editors, and wastes of time. B2C, I am asking you once again to be more tolerant of the views of others and not describe them with words like "idiotic", "nonsense", "insane", and so on. Omnedon (talk) 23:16, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Okay, help me understand then. Check out the history of 1978–1990. Created in 2007... 7 years ago. Check out its talk page; empty except for this RM proposal. Number of complaints about the title in seven years: zero. Amount of evidence that a single soul was ever misguided by this title: zero. Now look at how much yammering there is about it here, on its talk page, and the other three. How is that not idiotic, nonsense and insane? To what end? At the end of the day, what gets accomplished by such a move? Who benefits and how? What is the point here? How is this not the epitome of pointless?

Now, if this was an anomaly, that would be one thing. But WP:RM is replete with similarly pointless (unnecessary disambiguation) proposals. If we allow this to continue, the supply of titles that "could be improved" (supposedly) by being more descriptive is practically endless. That's what makes the problem of such proposals significant. That's what makes them frivolous. They're just time wasters.

You may disagree, but I spend a lot of time trying to pull in the opposite direction - so we have more stability in titles and therefore less time spent on pointless RM discussions. Doing that is not pointless, because the goal is a benefit to Wikipedia - a much smaller RM backlog and thus more time for editors to edit.

If productive time spent on Wikipedia is a forest then RMs proposing unnecessary disambiguation are fires, and I'm a fireman. Like a real world fireman, I don't actually produce much very often, and sometimes I even have to back burn, but the long term result is less damage to the forest. --В²C ☎ 01:24, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Understand this: some editors have a different view of titling, and the benefits to readers, than you have. Some feel that the title "1978-1990" is a bad article title and needs to be improved. It's illogical to argue that because this was not disputed years ago that it is therefore pointless to dispute it now. Please stop insulting those that disagree with you. Especially when you are known to argue and argue and argue about titles that have been discussed over and over and over. Omnedon (talk) 01:35, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

1. How is "idiotic" "nonsense" "insane" consistent with your recently expired topic ban and User:Born2cycle/pledge?

2. In answer to the question. (A). No readers used mobile phones to read/navigate en.wp in 2007, wheras in 2014 mobile phone users are the majority of popular culture article readers (so I saw at Village Pump or somewhere 6 months ago, and I believe it). (B) some of these date range albums have had "(album)" removed. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:38, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Omnedon, I understand a few editors have a different view of titling. That understanding doesn't answer any of the questions nor does it address any of the points I made.

IIO, 1 - That's avoiding through deflection. Lame.

2 - I've used WP via iPhone since 2008 and have never had any issues with insufficiently descriptive title. I don't know if anyone has ever had such an issue. I think you're making it up. Prove me wrong, please. --В²C ☎ 02:02, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

B2C: You suggest that a certain "number of complaints" from readers must accrue before we should be allowed to consider improving a title? I think you know that that's not how things work here. In cases where a title may be problematic, we act by considering ways to improve it... and contrary to your loud (and insulting) statements that this is all simply pointless idiotic yammering, clearly many editors recognize that these titles are indeed potentially problematic for readers, so improving them is a sensible thing to consider. Please respect that. ╠╣uw [talk] 10:08, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

No, Huw, that's not what I'm suggesting. However, since so many moves are proposed on the grounds that the respective titles are supposedly insufficiently descriptive or too ambiguous, and that causes user problems, there should be some evidence of that problem actually existing. Remember, the only reason we disambiguate at all is because we can't give two articles the same title. It's a technical limitation. If not for that technical limitation, we would not even need to have WP:D. But moves like these regarding the date ranges are predicated on the belief that there is some inherent problem with titles that might be used to refer to some other topic. What exactly is that problem? Where is the evidence that there is ever a reader-user problem with any ambiguous title? --В²C ☎ 15:52, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

• Support disambiguating date ranges that don't refer to a date range. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:27, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
• Disambiguate per Dicklyon's comment. I think there is a fundamental issue here, in that this sentence is being used in two different ways: "The title is sufficiently precise to unambiguously identify the article's subject and distinguish it from other subjects." This does not say, distinguish it from "other article titles", but "other subjects". That's not necessarily within the context of Wikipedia itself. No, there may not be another article on Wikipedia using the title "1978-1990", but that's not the point. That article title does not distinguish its subject (the album) from a range of dates. Thus it is not sufficiently precise. Omnedon (talk) 01:46, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
• Disambiguate Most readers, from almost any standpoint except the very specialist, will expect the link underlying "1979–1983" to be a year range. Any subject whose name may lead to ambiguity (because it's not what it appears on the surface) needs to be disambiguated, whether it be "1979–1983", "N" or "Razorfish". To filibuster on the basis that a work title that looks like a date range is unambiguous because there are no other entries of the same title is taking the mickey. -- Ohc ^¡digame! 03:07, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
• Disambiguate per Dicklyon who said, "date ranges – to titles that are "sufficiently precise to unambiguously identify the article's subject", as the precision criterion suggests for a good title." Irrespective of any guideline, there is no compunction to avoid precision. --Richhoncho (talk) 10:48, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
• Do not disambiguate, per WP:AT and WP:DAB. WP:DAB says to consider disambiguation when a term refers to more than one topic covered by Wikipedia, which means "either the main subject of an article, or a minor subject covered by an article in addition to the article's main subject." WP:AT says that for precision, we use a title which is "sufficiently precise to unambiguously identify the article's subject and distinguish it from other subjects." The key word here, of course, is subject. Except for these album articles, these date ranges are not a subject of any article. They're facts, descriptions possibly, something you'd find in an infobox. But they're not a topic or a subject of an article. This happens elsewhere in WP with regularity. "One might expect", without context, that Sixteen Tons would be about a measure of weight, that Wednesday Morning, 3 AM or 4:20 would be about a particular time of day, or that 98 Degrees or Fahrenheit 451 are about temperature - or that 1983-1991 is about a date range. But in actuality - none of these random measures would be subjects of an article if they weren't subjects of the articles where they are. In other words, the plainest way to state the case is: there's nothing here to disambiguate from. Dohn joe (talk) 15:42, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Please strike Sixteen Tons, 98 Degrees, Wednesday Morning, 3 AM as examples per WP:DIFFCAPS, and strike 4:20 because it like 1978–1990 fails recognisability and therefore we don't use it.

So your one example is claiming 1978–1990 is equivalent to Ray Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451? It's not, please look in Google Books and then strike that as a relevant comparison too. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:23, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

If you prefer, try 16 tons, 98°, Wednesday morning 3am, and, yes, 4:20 (all valid, undisambiguated redirects to undisambiguated titles (except for 4:20 - an undisambiguated redirect to a disambiguated title)) and then address the substantive points. Dohn joe (talk) 02:08, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Dohn joe, what is the obvious problem with what you've just asked? (aside from 420 (cannabis culture) being disambiguated I mean) In ictu oculi (talk) 02:38, 9 July 2014 (UTC) My bad on 4:20, although it itself is undisambiguated, which was the main point. Clarified above.) Dohn joe (talk) 14:28, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Lack of directness, perhaps? Ignore the rest, and please explain how "1983-1991" is the subject of any article besides the album article, as called for by WP:AT and WP:DAB. (This is not necessarily just for In ictu to answer - I would like to hear thoughts on this from anyone.) By the way, it's not like date ranges can't be be subjects of articles. As I noted above, there are ~45 date ranges which serve as redirects, to the decade articles from 1600-present. In that case, the ranges themselves are the subject of the article. The same cannot be said of the ranges at issue in these RMs, or date ranges in general. Dohn joe (talk) 14:28, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

No lack of directness isn't the problem, the problem is that the discussion here at Wikipedia talk:Article titles is about article titles not WP:Recognizability of redirects. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:59, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Again: Ignore the rest, and please explain how "1983-1991" is the subject of any article besides the album article, as called for by WP:AT and WP:DAB. Not an infobox fact, not a WP:PARTIALTITLEMATCH, but an actual subject of an article. (This is not necessarily just for In ictu to answer - I would like to hear thoughts on this from anyone.) Dohn joe (talk) 15:03, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

I already was ignoring them, as I said, they are redirects. It would help if you struck them.

Re (A "topic covered by Wikipedia" is either the main subject of an article, or a minor subject covered by an article in addition to the article's main subject.) these date ranges are minor subjects of the articles that treat them, yes, the time period is as much a subject for the other articles as for e.g. the Bauhaus album:

This article is about the Bauhaus compilation album. For the time period 1979-1983 in Britain, see Conservative Government 1979-1983. For the time period 1979-1983 in Australia, see 1979-1983 Eastern Australian drought. For the Orchestral Manoeuvres in the Dark album, see Peel Sessions 1979–1983. For Stones Throw Records album, see The Third Unheard: Connecticut Hip Hop 1979–1983.

• Disambiguate As others have rightly noted above, Wikipedia's precision criterion calls for a title to be "sufficiently precise to unambiguously identify the article's subject"... and the titles of the albums in question don't meet this criterion, regardless of whether or not their titles unambiguously identify the article within the English Wikipedia. In this case, where the titles are almost certain to be not only unrecognizable to most readers but actually misinterpreted by most readers, clarifying the titles is a sensible improvement (and inline with WP:AT's guidance to favor a general audience in matters of titling). ╠╣uw [talk] 18:35, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
• Do not disambiguate when there's nothing to disambiguate from, which all these proposed moves fail at. People do not randomly come across articles. Nobody would type in 1979-1983 to get anything but the album. So they should find the album there. Red Slash 21:19, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

User:Red Slash you say "People do not randomly come across articles" - you've said it before, and you say this with conviction, fine, but what's the factual basis of your conviction? Because the majority of editors here evidently believe the opposite, that people do. Let's say you're searching for "Bela Lugosi spy" , then 1978-1990 comes up as the 4th hit between The Phantom Creeps and Ghosts on the Loose. So is it possible for a person looking for "Bela Lugosi spy" movie to "randomly come across" the Bauhaus compilation? Obviously yes. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:09, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Similar examples for all the other albums; "Jack Kerouac bachelor London" brings up 1978–1990 before 1922 in literature. "Marcel Jacob France" brings up 1933 Grand Prix season first but also 1982–1992 5th. "holocaust jeweller missing" brings up 1983–1991 before Israelitisches Familienblatt. "batman cowgirl" brings up Pistolera but also 1992–2002, and so on... This is separate from the more important issue of autofill, try part-entering these years in autofill top right search box, and see what else comes up. Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:32, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

In my search, I get:

• The Phantom Creeps The serial stars Béla Lugosi as the villainous Doctor Zorka with ... Foreign spies, operating under the guise of a foreign language school, ...
• 1979–1983 Side one ": "Double Dare" " ... "Bela Lugosi's Dead " (live version ) ... Side two ": "Telegram Sam ... "Spy in the Cab" " "Terror Couple Kill Colonel " " ...
• Ghosts on the Loose The house next door is actually used by a German spy ring led by Emil (Bela Lugosi ). Emil is furious that his minion has sold the ...

Plenty of context to see what each article is about, so no confusion there.

Which is separate from the autofill red herring. People know how to use an encyclopedia. They do not enter "1983-1991" into the autofill box in the first place unless they are looking for something called "1983-1991". No one would enter "1983-1991" into the box looking for Intelsat VI, even though those were the years of its design, any more than anyone would enter "98°" if they are looking for Sodium, even though it is sodium's melting point. But the album? the boy band? Yes. Dohn joe (talk) 14:28, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Dohn joe, so you're saying that User:Red Slash is wrong; People do randomly come across articles, but then you're saying that in Google Search the soundbite from the article body often does the job of making it clear what the article is about. I would agree, in search results which also sample the article body the sample from article body will often help make clear what an unrecognizable title does not. This may be the first thing we have agreed on in this thread. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:59, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes - I'm saying that it's almost impossible to come across 1983-1991 and not know what it's about rather instantly. I'm glad we can agree. Dohn joe (talk) 15:03, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Well I obviously don't agree with your view that it's almost impossible as I don't believe that typing "Bela Lugosi spy" into search is almost impossible, if someone is looking for a Bela Lugosi spy film what else would they type? I was just agreeing that Red Slash was incorrect and people do randomly come across articles, I was also agreeing with you that in Google Search the soundbite from the article body often does the job of making it clear what the article is about. In this case the reader luckily picks up "Side One" in the snippet, giving a clue that "Bela Lugosi spy" result is an article about an album and not what the reader is looking for. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:11, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

OTHER APPROACH

See below #Wikipedia:Naming conventions (numbers and dates) approach --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:11, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Lots of titles that use "and"

I have noticed that we have a whole series of articles about the views various religious faiths in relation to LGBT issues (for example Homosexuality and Roman Catholicism). Unfortunately, almost all of them fall foul of WP:AT#Titles containing "and".

To comply with the policy, the entire series of articles may need to be re-titled. And (as you might imagine) this is a somewhat contentious topic area, so both sensitivity and neutrality is needed. It has been suggested that we hold a centralized discussion to discuss the issue... So, I have started one. See: Talk:LGBT and religion topics#Article titles - centralized discussion. Blueboar (talk) 15:04, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

For the specific article you mentioned at least I think the "Avoid the use of "and" to combine concepts that are not commonly combined in reliable sources." part is well covered, certainly many sources do discuss the issues regarding homosexuality and the Catholicism. However, a possible rename to Roman Catholic views on homosexuality or Issues involving homosexuality in Roman Catholicism could be acceptable too, but are certainly not as concise. Gaijin42 (talk) 17:45, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Guidelines on potentially offensive article titles?

Is there any, please? Thanks. Fgnievinski (talk) 21:51, 24 November 2014 (UTC)