Talk:Pharmaceutical industry

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I deleted the last sentence in the introduction. "The most sucessful and influential industries..." I have done research on the topic and cannot find any conclusive evidence of such facts. The only research I found, which seemed biased, suggested the pharmaceutical industry had profit margins of approximately 26% which does not seem accurate for many smaller companies. The deleted sentence could be true but to make such assertions about an industry the contributor should cite the source. Johnbushiii (talk) 18:52, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Based on my brief exploration of Wikipedia, I don't think the degree of bias in this article is typical of Wikipedia in general. There are key facts missing (e.g. in the discussion of AIDS drugs, no mention is made of the millions of dollars worth of medicine donated to African countries by the drug companies). If facts such as these were included, a more balanced article would result, but perhaps the author's agenda would not be served. I will try to find time to edit the most blatant portions of this article. 68.72.111.4 (talk · contribs)

If you have something to add to this article, please do. I have previously written neutral content to debiasify the article. JFW | T@lk 08:13, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

I edited some items. Thanks... btw, I wrote the first item on this discussion page.

Medicare Part D

I added a short note on Medicare Part D because of the size of the revenues associated with this program. CommodiCast 21:51, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Numerous additions

In the last few days I rearranged and added a number of sections. CommodiCast 20:28, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Duplication in other articles

I wonder if anyone else feel that the (very nice) sections on Drug discovery and development would be better placed in the articles of those names? There is a lot of duplication between those articles, this one, and the article on regulatory requirements. --Dogbertd 09:42, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Drug Manufacturing

Drugs don't grow in trees (well, some do) and need to be manufactured. There is a section missing on this subject, I think. Maybe I'll write it some day, including fermentation, chemical synthesis, outsourcing, etc. The pharmaceutical industry is quite wastefull compared to other chemical industry branches, but it has the best public image. Maybe I'll comment on this too.

Bibliography

Needs to be setup with the ISBN rather than a link to Amazon.com. This should be done or the books deleted. Cordially SirIsaacBrock 01:08, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Sanofi-Aventis R&D spending

The article had stated that Sanofi-Aventis R&D spending was USD $9.3 billion. However the actual source (Source: Wendy Diller and Herman Saftlas, "Healthcare: Pharmaceuticals," Standard & Poor’s Industry Surveys, 22 December 2005, 13) for these figure list Sanofi-Aventis as spending USD $3.9 for R&D. Since this is most likely a typo, I have corrected the error.

Well done. Thanks. JFW | T@lk 22:11, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Citation needed in Controversy section

The bullet point that begins, "From 1980 to 1997..." should have a citation for the statistics given concerning favorable study results. In addition, the last two sentences could use either some documentation or an external link. I'm not trying to dispute the points one way or the other, but a reference would be especially informative, given its location in the controversy section.

Direct Quotations

In the Drug Discovery section, I am not sure, but are those just cut and paste quotations from another site? Sorry for not delving into it at the moment, but it seems like that should be addressed. Perhaps by rewording and creating new text or by at least a more clear recognition of the source. As it is, they are in quotes, but by the paragraph and barely noticeable. Sorry for just complaining and not doing anything about it. Let me know if I'm off on this, otherwise I'll eventually get around to putting myt money where my mouth is and addressing it myself. --Gbinal 10:08, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I noticed that. Needless to say, it is unacceptable. Those quotations are disembodied in their current form. Furthermore, they are not cited properly. At best, it is terribly poor writing; at worst, it is academically dishonest. I will correct the problem in the near future and clean the whole article up while I am at it. Firewall62 06:44, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the copyright violations. JonHarder 15:24, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

There is another copyvio in the discussion of industry sales; a sentence is lifted straight from Forbes magazine. I was just looking for figures when I noticed it. I will get to it soon.Academic38 (talk) 09:15, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Edits

I've given this article a bit of an overhaul. Expanded the history section. Tried to rationalise all the different levels of headings. Integrated the disparate points collected under 'controversy' in to the topics to which they refer. Added some new bits and pieces. EverSince 22:29, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

In the table of companies by 2008 sales there is a mistake. GSK and Novartis have been given the same sales figure by mistake. The sales (in M$) for Novartis should be 36,172. (Andyfinlay (talk) 19:06, 10 January 2010 (UTC))

Pharmaceutical Industry vs Company

This article blends the concept of the entire pharmaceutical industry into the idea of the single company. I don't think that is particularly useful. These two topics have distinct uses, especially when it comes time to pick an appropriate internal link for another Wiki article. For example, a company that manufactures plastic bottles of use to both the pharmaceutical industry and beverage industry is better linked to the pharm industry link, while a drug company in NJ or its CEO is better linked to the pharm company link. A city that has a great number of pharmaceutical companies within its borders should link to pharm companies, while an association that represents the pharm industry has a broader "industry" nature. Such a distinction between industry and firms would allow for development of more sophisticated discussions within Wiki, such as 1)how the industry as a whole deals with the AIDS crisis or lobbying in Washington, DC, versus 2) where individual companies are located, who works for them, and maybe some microeconomic issues like liability, advertising, local government regulation, and hiring. This seems to be an issue on many industries, such as ceramics industry, food and beverage industry, et al. I've been working on the plastics industry myself. Pat 22:18, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Restructuring

There are too many sub-sections with only a few sentences, these should be expanded or (preferably) consolidated. Also, many of the sections should link to main articles (if they exist) or split into new articles. For instance, "From drug discovery to market" should link to the separate articles on "Drug Discovery" and "Drug Development". The overall arc of the article should also be rethought. The introduction could use a little more substance. History is a good start to the main body of the article, but there is no logical order to the sections that follow. Criticisms should generally be worked into the article where appropriate, and not given their own section unless there is nowhere else to put them. More specific topics should be placed at the end of the article. I apologize for not implementing these suggestions myself; maybe when I have more time. AAMiller 22:01, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Still a mess, but it's a start...AAMiller 00:26, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Kevin trudeau

i think tat kevin trudeau, being an important part of the pharmceutical company criticism organizations, belongs as a see-also reference on the phrmarceutical company talkpage. the editors who have revered my edits have given no reason why apart from their possible prersonal dislike of Mr. Trudeau's work and i dontthitnk that sa valid reason to violate wikipedia: NPOV. and otehr guidelines protecting wikipedia from bias. Smith Jones (talk) 00:31, 10 January 2008 (UTC) Smith Jones (talk) 00:31, 10 January 2008 (UTC) Smith Jones (talk) 00:31, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Kevin Trudeau has nothing to do with the pharmaceutical industry. Whether a link belongs in the "See also" section should be approached with common sense, and common sense is that a random altmed proponent isn't an appropriate link for a few reasons:

1. There's nothing in the article about Trudeau.
2. The other links in the section are clearly logical extensions of the functions of the industry itself.
3. Trudeau is only one of many that have ever criticized the industry, and it's not the Wikipedia norm to list every detractor in the See also section.
4. A dedicated article to the criticisms of the industry may be appropriate, and a Trudeau link would possibly make sense there. — Scientizzle 00:48, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

kevin trudeau was indeed metnioned in the article earlier, in a referfnece regarding his detractions of the pharmceutical community.

i admit that there is not al ot of supporting evidence CURRENLY INto the article

trudeau is a leading well-known and notable critic snad his name belongs there just as james randi's name belong on a sylvia browne article.

i like your suggestion of a Criticiims of the Pharmaceutical INdustry idea and i will create it later tonight. Smith Jones (talk) 00:54, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Smith Jones you said "MR. Trudeau's presitigous name" in one of your edit summaries. How is his name prestigious? According to the article on him "On November 19, 2007, he was found in contempt of court again for "patently false" claims in his weight loss book" and "The FTC currently restricts his ability to promote and sell any product or service." "Trudeau has criminal convictions in the early 1990s for fraud and larceny." It seems that all he is really notable for is his products which he is not allowed to sell. Somehow I don't think the words of a convcited fellow who was convicted for crimes in this area (false claims about health products) are reliable. Also seeing as it is currently illegal for him to promote his products within the United States (where he is a citizen) it seems inappropriate to reference any source in which he does that in an article that is not about him or his products. I think the comment should be removed entirely. JamesStewart7 (talk) 05:53, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, Trudeau is one of the greater scam artists of the modern era. Somehow his repeated convictions for fraud, etc., don't dissuade his supporters from believing his quackery-of-the-month.

Additionally, the statements continually added by User:Smith Jones regarding Trudeau are of no benefit to the article's content as a whole. — Scientizzle 06:06, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

if being a convicted felon makes him unrleliable then i will have to agree with you and i wont add his name to this article agian. however, i dont think that this discredits him on an article relating to his CLAIMS, (which ae not by definiton true or false, merely statements of act that he made). do you agree with me on that count? Smith Jones (talk) 20:27, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

No real disagreement here. Trudeau is notable as an encyclopedic subject for many reasons, and his claims agains the pharma industry may merit treatment on Wikipedia, on his article in particular, but perhaps in a wider altmed vs evidence-based-medicine/big pharma article. Additionally, there are certainly many different people and organizations that have leveled various claims against this industry as a whole, and those deserve attention; howwever, criticism sections easily become magnets for editors to add any claim from their cause du jour irrespective of the strength and relevance of the claims and whether it truly contributes to a further understanding of the topic (or exists as just another jab at the subject with a wikilinked name-drop). Sections that suffer too greatly from this syndrome tend to lose focus, becoming a melange of complaints rather than an academic treatment of the variety, nature and strength of established criticisms. Trudeau's claims are easily dismissed (for better or worse) by their general pseudoscientific nature and conspiracy theory mongering; his reputation makes it difficult for many to take him seriously, particularly concerning claims of this nature. In total, Trudeau lacks the gravitas of the other orgaizations already cited in the criticism section and his inclusion just doesn't fit--it's a bit like trying to adding criticisms from Sean Penn into a critique of American foreign policy...the guy's clearly notable, but likely doesn't merit much attention on these views (outside of his own article, perhaps). — Scientizzle 21:49, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

I have proposed that this article be moved to Pharmaceutical industry. We can then write a short article instead of this for "Pharmaceutical company". See comments above at #Pharmaceutical_Industry_vs_Company. Eric Kvaalen (talk) 08:56, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like a plan. EverSince (talk) 04:47, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

The opponents of the industry

I just thought its wierd that theres not a presence of the opposition of the modern pharm industry,like treating only symptoms and not looking into permanent cures, and their being the one who got most drugs illegal and that kinda thing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.231.239.8 (talk) 08:20, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

== == Pharmaunternehmen

Wann gibt es schlechte Nachrichten für die Pharmaindustrie

Missing Teva in the first list

Where is Teva in the list of top companies by revenue, on the Teva wikipedia page it says the revenue was 11 billion, and I can't see the company in the list on this page. Is it a mistake? Can some one edit the list? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.68.249.235 (talk) 23:11, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Me-too drugs redirect here but no mention of it!

Make its own article or include something in here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.29.121.91 (talk) 00:40, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Me too! Er, I mean... I was also wondering about this. *Vendetta* _{(whois talk edits)} 09:03, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Have made an attempt to introduce the topic. Any help to improve/wikify would be appreciated TomorrowsDream (talk) 12:20, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Thank you very much! I really appreciate what you've added - it is very clear and informative, and answered my random curiosity about that redirect! *Vendetta* _{(whois talk edits)} 05:09, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

identification of pharmaceutical products

How do one identify the pharmaceutical products and taking into account the input-transformational-output 41.191.104.250 (talk) 20:04, 15 February 2011 (UTC)model.

Reads like Pharmaceutical industry marketing

The entire section on R&D is very biased, really needs to be redone. Neosiber (talk) 23:31, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

WP:SOFIXIT. — Scientizzle 14:48, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

jkjl lkjlk kj;lk j;lkj — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.95.14.101 (talk) 04:32, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Drug Manufacturing II

This has been mentioned before. It seems a major omission to have no information on drug manufacturing processes. There are a few related articles dotted around, so perhaps at least a links section could be created to, for example: Validation_(drug_manufacture); Good_Manufacturing_Practices; Tablet#Manufacturing; Spheronisation; Tablet_press; etc.

Jpedant (talk) 23:58, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Origens of the word Pharmacuetical

I added the origens of the word pharmaceutical. 2602:306:C518:62C0:1E75:8FF:FEBB:2125 (talk) 06:15, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

"Some researchers who have tried to reveal ethical issues with clinical trials or who tried to publish papers that show harmful effects of new drugs or cheaper alternatives have been threatened by drug companies with lawsuits."

This can be variously described as non-neutral POV or as unsupported by any citation from a reliable source. The first citation describes a case in which from the company's point of view, was not a lawsuit for "revealing ethical issues" but for breaking a confidentiality agreement. In fact, the court ruled in the company's favor. One could reasonably include this item in the article as an example of a lawsuit against a physician employee who claimed to have ethical concerns, but balance would also require stating that the lawsuit was filed for violation of a confidentiality contract, and that a neutral court ruled in the company's favor. You can't just present the defendant's version of the story, especially when a competent court has reviewed the case and ruled against him.

The second citation includes no examples of individuals being sued by a pharmaceutical company. So it is completely irrelevant to the statement that cites it as support.

As a minor aside, both articles are news stories written by journal editors, not scientific papers, so neither is peer reviewed. Alfred Bertheim (talk) 04:34, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi Alfred, first, please don't make null edits to leave messages in edit summaries. As for the text, the first ref does support the edit, and I'm sure many more could be found. If you want to present another view saying this doesn't happen, or saying what the company argued, by all means do that. The second source also supports the view that researchers who act as whistleblowers face penalties. And sources don't have to be peer-reviewed, particularly not for material like this. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 04:50, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

I will refrain from blank edits to leave messages if you will engage instead of acting unilaterally. Otherwise my concerns are left here where they are not seen, while you edit the article in way that reflects only your own point of view. I created null reversions as a courtesy rather than starting a reversion war, in spite of the fact that you were acting unilaterally.

The first article includes the statement that "However, in November 1998 Organon concluded from its expert advice that embarking on a study using a dose of 2.5 mg was responsible." In fact, Organon was correct and Dr. Stiekema was wrong. The results of the trial show no dose response effect. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15193678 So the doctor violated his confidentialty agreement, company and its other advisors were completely correct, and the court ruled against him. How can this be presented in such a one-sided way?

The second article contains only allegations and nothing that has been ruled on by a court or which was witnessed by neutral observers. One of the two accusers is anonymous, and the other has earned large book and movie royalties off her allegations. You can caveat the inclusion of these allegations by including the word "claim", but in the absence of evidence, you could equally well include the statement "Some people claim that pharmaceutical companies are engaging in a worldwide conspiracy to poison members of ethnic minorities". Where do you draw the line in posting unsupported allegations? They simply are not noteworthy without supporting evidence. Alfred Bertheim (talk) 05:08, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Please stop removing that sentence. I haven't removed your addition of the Dutch researcher, but this isn't about just one case, and it would look odd simply to add those details with no lead in, as though this has only ever happened once. Also, the award against him was overturned; I've added that and a source. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 16:45, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Slim, thank you for engaging and not simply deleting my post. I have no objection to the first sentence provided that you identify supporting references. As currently constituted, there is only a citation saying that a single researcher was sued for breaking confidentiality after having an ethical concern that other company advisors did not share. I do not think this is sufficient to support the broad conclusions in the opening sentence that the industry as a whole is routinely using litigation to silence critics. Perhaps its true, but citations of reliable sources are required by Wikipedia policy; otherwise this is original research.

I respectully object to your deletion of the material about the outcome of the trial. It shows that the company and its advisors were correct in their assessment, and I believe this is a relevant piece of information. Without this information the paragraph leaves the impression that the company knew its design would hurt patients and was trying to cover it up. If the trial had shown that Dr. Stiekema was right and patients were injured, wouldn't you strongly insist on including that information?

It is not my intention to have a confrontational relationship with you or anyone else on this site. Let's try to listen to each other with an open mind, and perhaps we will both learn something.

Respectfully Alfred Bertheim (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:16, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Source query

Hi Alfred, I see you restored some of this again. Is the source a secondary source? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 17:00, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Organon conducted the trial according to the originally planned protocol and found that the dose that Dr. Stiekema opposed provided the same reduction in mortality as the other three doses examined.

j

Hi Slim,

Primary sources are permitted when they serve to source factual material. Indeed, every statement in this article about the Organon episode references a primary source.

On several occasions you've criticized me for removing material instead of bringing it up on the talk page and seeking concensus. But then you unilaterally removed my additions without prior discussions. To me, it seems that the rule you are actually seeking to implement is that you have final say over what is included in the article. If you are unable to compromise here (The initial sentence you wanted has been left intact) I think it is time to seek mediation by a neutral 3rd party. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alfred Bertheim (talk • contribs) 17:28, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Primary sources shouldn't be used to support their own claims in cases where the claims might be disputed. It's better to find review articles or other secondary sources; see WP:MEDRS. I see that you're relying on primary sources elsewhere too. Secondary sources should be used for just about any material you want to add, making sure that they are directly related to the article; see WP:SYN.

Yes, I reverted your change. When changes are made to long-standing material (whether removals or additions), and an editor reverts with a reasonable objection, the usual thing is to discuss. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 17:37, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Request for Mediation

The request may be viewed here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Pharmaceutical_Industry Talk Page. Albert Bertheim Talk page — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alfred Bertheim (talk • contribs) 23:22, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

I am requesting mediation of my disagreement with SlimVirgin regarding paragraph 4 of the Controversies section of this article. I've added a summary of my position below, and expect that SlimVirgin will add a summary of her position as well.

1. The first sentence of the paragraph "Researchers who have tried to reveal ethical issues with clinical trials, or publish papers showing harmful effects of drugs – and who saw themselves as whistleblowers – have faced or been threatened with lawsuits from drug companies, or have lost their jobs." - The references cited establish only that a single pharmaceutical researcher at Organon disgreed with his colleagues about the safety of a clinical protocol, was unable to reach agreement with the company, and was sued for violating confidentiality when he took his case to outside ethics committees. The generalization of this statement to the plural "researchers" and "drug companies" is an original synthesis. According to the Original Research guidance page:

   "The verifiability policy says that an inline citation to a reliable source must be provided for all quotations, and for anything challenged or likely to be challenged"

   The phrase "researchers who tried to reveal ethical issues" violates Wikipedia's neutral POV policy because it implies that Organon's lawsuit was motivated by the desire to prevent revelation of an ethical issue. No evidence is presented to support this conclusion. In fact, the lawsuit occurred after the information was disclosed. Furthermore, the ethics committees that this information was revealed to apparently allowed the trial to go forward, as the dose that Steikema opposed was included in the trail protocol as actually performed (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Simoons+ML%2C+Bobbink+IW ), suggesting that they ultimately agreed with the company's position that no ethical problem existed.

2. According to the same reference, the dose that Steikema opposed was not only equally efficacious to the higher doses that he did not oppose, it was nominally (but non statistically significantly) more efficacious than the doses that he agreed with. I believe this information is relevant to judging the company's motives (it would certainly be considered relevant if Dr. Stiekema's position had been vindicated by the results of the trial) and should be included in the paragraph. It has been repeatedly deleted by SlimVirgin without good cause.
3. SlimVirgin errs in stating that the source used for the results of this trial violates MEDRS standards. These standards do not explicitly prohibit the use of primary references, but advise against their use as a source of opinions or conclusions regarding safety or efficacy of a treatment regimen, especially when there is a diversity of opinion in the literature that is not represented by the cited source. When the information being sourced is not a conclusion, but simple factual information such as the mortality rate associated with a specific treatment arm of a specific clinical trial, there are no "disputed claims" and no need to restrict sources to reviews and meta analyses to prevent "cherry picking". Here is the MEDRS standard:

   "Reliable primary sources may occasionally be used with care as an adjunct to the secondary literature, but there remains potential for misuse. For that reason, edits that rely on primary sources should only describe the conclusions of the source, and should describe these findings clearly so the edit can be checked by editors with no specialist knowledge. In particular, this description should follow closely to the interpretation of the data given by the authors or by other reliable secondary sources."

   I conclude that the data in this paper is relevant, that and that it is properly sourced. Following SlimVirgin's reasoning, one could not cite court papers as evidence that a lawsuit had been filed. I believe the citation was removed solely to protect the non-neutral point of view of the paragraph.
4. There is no citation supporting the phrase "or who tried to publish papers showing the harmful side effects of drugs". This is original research. It should be sourced or removed.

I conclude that this entire paragraph as it currently stands is a violation of NPOV built up from original syntheses and the systematic efforts of certain editors to exclude information that provides a more neutral POV treatment of the events. Thank you for taking the time to review this. I will respect whatever decision is made by the mediators.Alfred Bertheim (talk) 23:07, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

I've really lost track of what you want here. The section is poorly written and obviously incomplete, so this feels like dancing on the head of a pin. You made the section even worse by three times removing [1] [2] [3] that researchers who have tried to reveal ethical issues with clinical trials have been threatened with lawsuits or lost their jobs, along with the sources. But you must know that this is true, and the sources were good, so it seems an odd thing to remove. The third time [4] you replaced it with just one (not very notable) example from the Netherlands, with no preamble, as though this has happened only once, ever, then you added primary source material to it to show that the researcher was wrong and the company was right. You also left out that the award against the researcher was overturned on appeal. See the fourth paragraph of your version. It said:

Dr. Koos Stiekema was was sued by the pharmaceutical company Organon for violating his confidentiality agreement after discussing his concerns that the lowest dose of the drug pentasaccharide being tested patients with acute coronary syndrome would not be sufficient to prevent myocardial infarctions with three ethics committees. Organon's other experts agreed that the trial design was safe, and a court awarded Organon ₤550,000 for the trial delay costs that resulted from Dr. Stiekema's disclosures. Organon conducted the trial according to the originally planned protocol and found that the dose that Dr. Stiekema opposed provided the maximum reduction in mortality among the four doses examined. At the time of the original court decision, the British Medical Journal ran an article prominently referring to Dr. Stiekema as a "whistleblower", but the journal never commented on the trial results demonstrating superior efficacy for the dose that Dr. Stiekema had opposed.

So I restored the introductory sentence (researchers who have tried to reveal ethical issues, etc), which is fully sourced, but I left your Dutch example, though I think it should be removed. I removed [5] the sentence that says or implies that the researcher was wrong, because it relies on a primary source (see the section above); if you find a secondary source, I don't mind if you restore it, though I think it's too much detail. And I've added quotes from the sources to the footnote, which offers a number of examples, to show that it's not just one Dutch researcher that we're referring to. The paragraph now looks like this (see fourth paragraph): "Researchers who have tried to reveal ...".

Rather than trying to remove material from this section, or arguing about one sentence, if you're interested in this issue, it would make more sense to build it up. It badly needs someone to work on it. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 17:31, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Whence this bias?

I have a serious problem with this section of the text:

Drug companies are like other companies in that they manufacture products that must be sold for a profit in order for the company to survive and grow. They are different from some companies because the drug business is very risky. For instance, only one out of every ten thousand discovered compounds actually becomes an approved drug for sale. Much expense is incurred in the early phases of development of compounds that will not become approved drugs.[13] In addition, it takes about 7 to 10 years and only 3 out of every 20 approved drugs bring in sufficient revenue to cover their developmental costs, and only 1 out of every 3 approved drugs generates enough money to cover the development costs of previous failures. This means that for a drug company to survive, it needs to discover a blockbuster (billion-dollar drug) every few years.[13]

This is in no way neutral POV, when it manages to completely elide the fact that this is one of the largest and definitely one of the most profitable industries in the world, with revenues in the hundreds of billions and net incomes of twenty percent! There doesn't appear to be any discussion of these facts in a section that discusses the cost and difficulty of drug development. The cited source (a website) is argumentative and not of any particular academic or scholarly authority. This seems to me well below the standard of quality we should expect from Wikipedia. Graft | talk 22:35, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Information needed (cost of the industry today)

Can we get information like - what is the cost of pharma industry today in the article ? Thanks. --Abhijeet Safai (talk) 10:08, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

dubias best selling drug, under 'Industry Revenues' section

It's definitely wrong and has been for a few years now, since lipitor went generic. The source if from '06... Maybe I'm blind but it doesn't appear to have been discussed even though the "dubious discuss" tag was added a year ago. so I'm going to go ahead an update that information to at least something relatively accurate.

Numerous sources have "humira" as the best selling drug world wide for 2013, although in the United States it seems Abilify and Nexium sell more. one source has Enbrel and Advair as the second and third top selling world wide, respectively. (although one source has Remicide in the number two position world wide.) Let me know if you see any issues with the final outcome Pharmaceutical_industry#Industry_revenues

DustBowlTroubadour (talk) 09:10, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Potential source

Here's a report about profits in the pharmaceutical industry by the BBC. It discredits the claim that pharmaceutical companies spend most of their money developing drugs—the majority is actually spent in marketing. Maybe the article already covers all of this thoroughly, but in case it doesn't, I hope this link helps. – Maky ^« talk » 19:17, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Its a pretty complicated issue that has been worked over many times before. To an finance expert, R&D spending is "capital expenditure" in which you spend the money to develop products that will reach the market a decade later; marketing expenditure is spent to generate revenues over a much shorter time horizon. These are very different in that you have to apply a cost of capital to R&D expense. Its a lot like paying cash today for a house that you won't be able to move into for 10 years - you have to adjust the amount you paid years in advance of getting a payoff for the interest you could have been earning with that money in the bank.

Another issue is that the net profits of pharma are not all that high compared to other successful research-intensive industries. Pfizer, Merck, and GSK had net margins averaging 32%, 12%, and 18% over the last 3 years. Apple, Microsoft, and Qualcomm earned 23%, 26%, and 29%. In either case, the product either brings value or its isn't worth the money. You can decide for yourself if you want to pay for it. Formerly 98 (talk) 20:27, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. However, are both sides of this argument represented in the article and thoroughly discussed? That's why I posted the source. (Sorry, I'm working on another project so I don't have time to read it. I saw the news article and just thought I'd share it as a potential source.) – Maky ^« talk » 20:50, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Questionable deletions

I've been looking over some of the changes to this article over the past year and several deletions jumped out at me as questionable:

1. discussion of similars
2. examples of specific whistleblower experiences
3. top 20 companies by revenue / top 15 by sales
4. $19 billion per year spent on promotions
5. 28% of American Psychiatric Association budget
6. $855 million per year on lobbying
7. scientific publications are often authored by contractors
8. multiple reasons for regulatory capture deleted
9. developing world discussion initial paragraph
10. reasons Doctors Without Borders refuses drug donations
11. list of regulatory authorities
12. further reading bibliography

I intend to replace most of those deletions unless there are policy or guideline-based reasons they should not be included. EllenCT (talk) 22:09, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

the deletions were made bit by bit, and if they have been standing for a while you should discuss them here before adding anything back. This article was hijacked by anti-pharma people a while back and some useful NPOV corrections have been going on for a while now. So please take it slow, take into account the edit provided, and please discuss them one by one, in separate sections. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 22:20, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

You are welcome to make separate sections for any of the proposed replacemnets, and I will be happy to do so if there is some policy or guideline requiring it. EllenCT (talk) 00:08, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

I'd also ask you to step very carefully here. This industry has a long history, and it should be seen as a whole. Wikipedia is not a place for righting great wrongs, making social statements, or hanging a wreath of shame around the neck of those whose behavior you disagree with. Formerly 98 (talk) 22:44, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Neither is Wikipedia a place to try to hide verifiable reports of widespread patterns of abuse from reliable sources because the industry employees who have been removing them believe they are shameful. WP:NPOV and WP:COI and other policies and guidelines are quite clear on this matter. If there are legitimate reasons that any of the specific deletions should not be restored, please state them. EllenCT (talk) 00:08, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Actually Ellen, the article as it stands is status quo, so as I understand it the burden is on you to obtain a consensus to change it. It would be good to see your remarks on specific items you wish to add.

This was not a simple wholesale removal of negative material, as appears to be implied by your post, but a general cleanup of the article, which is still in progress. Nearly one-third of the material that I have added discusses "negative" issues including the marketing of unsafe drugs and its effects on patients, the marketing of ineffective drugs, and failure to maintain production standards leading to the deaths of children. The sections on the elixir of sulfonamide episode and the thalidomide episode have been greatly expanded, as has information about the other abuses that regulation was passed to address. A very explicit picture of a child malformed by pre-natal exposure to thalidomide was added as well.

Much of the material that was removed violated sourcing standards or was out of date. For example,

• The "discussion of similars" was based mainly on articles that were over 10 years old and which reflected reimbursement schemes that no longer exist. I plan to update this, including the example of how the existence of a "me too" hepatitis C regimen from Abbvie is putting pricing pressure on Gilead and its $86K price tag for sovaldi, and is thought by many analysts to be leading to a price war.
• There were multiple lengthy discussions of specific scandals involving specific companies included in the article. These are fine additions to the articles covering the specific companies involved if properly sourced. But presenting them here in a manner that implies that the given scandal is representative of behavior found throughout the industry is WP:SYNTHESIS.
• Many items, such as the company revenues from 2008, were removed because they were simply out of date. The fact that they were not updated for 6 years suggests to me that they should not be re-added, as no one seems interested in keeping them up to date.
• Some were removed because they represented clear violations of WP:NPOV. It's really not our place to say in Wikipedia's voice that pharma is obligated to give its products away in the third world or that it should spend less on marketing. As a percent of revenue, Pfizer's marketing spend is similar to Microsoft's. That's a value judgement, and we're supposed to stay away from that.
• In some cases, minority viewpoints were over-represented. If Docs without Borders doesn't want Pharma's drugs thats a good thing to add to the Doctors without borders article. But PATH, the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, the Medicines Patent Pool, and the Task Force for Global Health all find pharma a perfectly fine partner. There's no reason to highlight the single organization that doesn't want to accept free drugs.

With respect to the reference to "industry employees", I respectfully request that if you have a concern about potential conflicts of interest, that you take them up at WP:COIN and not engage on comments about other editors on the article Talk page. This sort of thing is strongly discouraged by the guidelines at WP:TALK.

Formerly 98 (talk) 02:24, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

I think I can reach a suitable compromise with you on most of these objections, but why do you say reporting the industry's marketing spending implies that they should "spend less on marketing"? Do you think reporting the lobbying budget implies that they are spending too much on lobbying? EllenCT (talk) 23:12, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

I support reinstating at least some of these deletions on a case by case basis. The pharmaceutical industry is an industry which makes issues like budgets for advertising and lobbying relevant along with other things not mentioned like cost of research and development and raw materials. Getting into issues as specific as reasons Doctors without Borders may refuse pharmaceutical donations or the exact budget of the APA may be a little bit too granular for a page as broad as "the pharmaceutical industry". If multiple NGOs refuse pharmaceutical donations this would strengthen your argument that it is worthy of inclusion. Industry's involvement with regulation is also very relevant and affects many facets of society from pharmaceutical companies to users and the way doctors prescribe medications.

WP:TALK does not really provide guidelines for or against discussing specific conflicts of interest on article Talk pages. In some cases it might be appropriate to address and in others it might be more appropriate to bring up with the user directly. Doors22 (talk) 21:54, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your input. Could you be more specific. Difficult to discuss specifics of individual edits in response to a broadly phrased comment.

Please remember to sign your posts with four tildes. EllenCT (talk) 23:14, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

EllenCT (talk) is allowed to make changes and have them be discussed and revised by other editors on an ongoing basis. By mentioning her requested changes on the talk page prior to actually making any changes she is being a very commendable contributor to Wikipedia and following practices that are not adhered to by most editors. My general feedback is to avoid being overly specific about certain companies, incidents, organizations etc. and keep the focus of the whole industry in mind.

I also noticed you added a comment that Pfizer's marketing expense as a percent of its revenue base is similar to Microsoft. I quickly reviewed their latest available annual statements and did not find this to be correct. Would you mind sharing your source or why you believe to to be true? Thanks. Doors22 (talk) 23:09, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

They're only different if you compare Microsoft's sales and marketing (only) to Pfizers Sales, marketing, general and administrative budget. Since Pfizer does not break out its advertising budget separately (most companies don't), to get a comparable number you have to add Microsofts 15,811 in sales and marketing to its 4821 in general and administrative. That gives a total of 20,632 in SG&A, which is 24% of revenue. Pfizer's SG&A is 14,355 out of 51,504 in revenue, which is 28%. Close enough considering we don't know the exact numbers. The year before Pfizer spent 28% and MSFT spent 26%. In any case its a minor point. Its not our opinion that counts, its what is in reliable sources. Preferably ones that are up to date. I'll add that currently about 10% of the article is dedicated to marketing issues of the late 1990's to mid 2000's. That's a lot given that the industry is 200 years old.

I'm unclear on whether you are advocating edit warring as a way of settling differences, but Ellen has already been put on notice that there are concerns about here proposed edits. It would be best to discuss them rather than getting into a flurry of reversions and counter-reversions.

I'll repeat my request that you offer specifics regarding what edits you would like to see made to the article. Formerly 98 (talk) 00:53, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Besides being WP:Synthesis, I don't think you can realistically take a single pharmaceutical company and a single technology company to compare SG&A expenses as a proxy to make a point about marketing & advertising. Apple spent 7% as a point of comparison.

I reviewed Ellen's history and did not see anything out of the ordinary regarding sanctions or warnings against her account. I am not advocating edit warring, but it is a little concerning that you are using this kind of language before there have been any changes. Just like any edit, Wikipedia guidelines support an editor making a change and if anybody disagrees they may discuss on the talk page before deletion.

Your statement about the pharmaceutical industry being 200 years old is a good one. This is an article on the pharmaceutical industry but not history of the pharmaceutical industry that I see does not yet exist. Being that issues post-2000 represent practices, rules, regulations, participants that are relevant in today's landscape I think it makes sense to spend more time on these more recent issues.

In terms of changes that Ellen has proposed, I am fine with reinstating from her list #s 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12. I did not understand what was meant by "discussion of similars" and as you have pointed out it is probably too specific to mention Doctors without Borders' response to the industry unless this is representative of a wider attitude. I would argue that the advertising budget for the APA belongs on the Psychiatry page as it is a subset of the pharmaceutical industry.

As suggested by Jytdog (talk), I agree that it is completely reasonable to make edits independent of one another so they can be discussed separately. Doors22 (talk) 01:53, 11 January 2015 (UTC)