Talk:Genetically modified food

Template:WAP assignment

Misleading presentation

The statement that GM foods on the market pose no risk is subtly different from the statement that GMOs carry no potential risk. In the lede, the cited sources do support the statement about foods "on the market" but they don't support the idea that there is no potential risk from GM foods. Yet the potential risks aren't even mentioned in the lede. Howunusual (talk) 03:52, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't understand your point. This article is about actual, not theoretical, GM food. The article on GM controversies goes into the potential risks. Jytdog (talk) 10:47, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

The article is about the broad topic of genetic modification of food, not just the GM food that is currently on the market. At least, that is a natural assumption for readers to make. So, there is a bit of sleight of hand, in making a statement--in the lede--about a broad scientific consensus that is, actually, only true of food currently on the market. Howunusual (talk) 16:23, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

the article is currently about actual, not theoretical, GM food. we can of course discuss broadening the scope... Jytdog (talk) 01:59, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Howunusual (talk): Thank you for your suggestion. You are correct. Jytdog says that "the article is currently about actual, not theoretical, GM food." Who decided that? I don't agree with that assumption, and it is not stated in the article. I agree with Howunusual (talk) that it is a "sleight of hand", and deliberately misleading. Can we agree to add the content Howunusual (talk) suggested? David Tornheim (talk) 22:25, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

There is no sleight of hand.. the article is as clear as it could be.

The focus on actual food as opposed to theoretical food (?) or products in development, was decided back when the the articles were reorganized so they would each cover a distinct aspect - we have one on the basic science (Genetic engineering); one broadly covering the various kinds of organisms that have been modified, and why (Genetically modified organism) (which has many, many subarticles); one on the actual crops that have been modified, really focused on the crops themselves and how they are used in agriculture - which was completely lacking when we started - (Genetically modified crops) and one on the resulting food (this one). There are two articles on regulation (Regulation of genetically modified organisms focused on the basic science, and Regulation of the release of genetically modified organisms which is focused more on commercialization - the actual release of them into the world). Finally, because the controversies cut across all of them, and had come to dominate all of them in a thicket-y, repetitious, and even self-contradictory way, we created a Genetically modified food controversies article that covered all of it in one place, and per WP:SUMMARY, included a summary of that article in each of the others. We did the same thing with the regulation-of-release article. You will find those two summary sections near the end of each of the articles above, and a set of links at the top orienting the reader where other related topics are. It has worked well to keep the content well-organized and non-overlapping for a few years now. We can discuss a re-organization, anytime you like. It should take the other, related articles into account.

I think it is really important that people have a place to go, to learn about what actual food out there is GM. That content didn't exist in WP before we built it. Jytdog (talk) 22:59, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

It is completely possible that some future GM food might be hazardous to humans. Genetics, while rapidly advancing, is still in its infancy. To assert that some speculated food will be harmful is not helpful. Better to talk about whatever flaws may exist in today's risk assessments and testing protocols. You can't prove that every GM food will be safe (or prove any other prediction.) You can assess the safety of today's products and discuss the risks of today's procedures producing some future harm. That's it. Lfstevens (talk) 08:49, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Lfstevens (talk). This is one of the major criticisms by GMO critics--insufficient testing. The articles does not reflect that and is therefore lacks NPOV. Let's include information from critics in both the lede and the article about concerns of insufficient testing and showing the major differences between the U.S. and Europe and nations that have GMO bans. None of this is articulated in the article, but instead there is vague language with "big" words like "regulation" and "differences" but no details with useful information. Consumers need to know the difference in regulation between different countries, so they know what is possible, not just which things products are GMO--which incidentally they would know if the industry, AMA, etc. did not so vigorously oppose labelling.David Tornheim (talk) 10:37, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

If we have WP:RS support for the "inadequate testing" claim, I'd say that goes in. I have seen a host of non-RS sources making the claim. As has been repeatedly covered, the issue is not the existence of a claim. It's about sources. Lfstevens (talk) 16:48, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

____________________
This article is about GMO food. The introduction needs to say there is no scientific consensus on the safety of GMO food. While I can not speak to the accuracy of the carefully constructed claim that "that food on the market derived from GM crops poses no greater risk to human health than conventional food," it is clear that the phrasing of this statement gives the false impression that there is scientific consensus on the safety of GMO food, which is not true.

This is the conclusion of an open letter published this year in the peer-reviewed journal Environmental Sciences Europe and signed by more than 300 independent researchers. Furthermore, I would like to point out that their introduction begins by noting that there is "a concerted effort by genetically modified (GM) seed developers and some scientists, commentators, and journalists to construct claims that there is a ‘scientific consensus’ on GMO safety and that the debate on this topic is ‘over.’"

Considering this, I think it is crucial that Wikipedia-- often the first search result for many subjects-- refrain from furthering the false claims of "scientific consensus." As it is, the exclusion in this article of a statement on the lack of overall consensus on the safety of GMO food is irresponsible and misleading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.169.76.198 (talk) 22:20, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

I see there is a discussion on the "consensus" claim further below as well. This comment is more appropriate here, however, because it is about the introduction giving a misleading impression. The misleading statement that I commented on above should stay, if it's true. With the addition of noting that there is no scientific consensus on GMO food overall, that statement will no longer be misleading (pending the results of the ongoing discussion).

66.169.76.198 (talk) 21:38, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
_______________________

Edit request

In the introduction, it would be appropriate to note that genetic modification simply refers to the editing of DNA sequence, and cannot be classified as entirely dangerous or not. It depends on the genes being altered. Much like changes in the human genome can be favorable (e.g. HIV resistance through Ccr5 polymorphism), unfavorable (e.g. CFTR mutation causing cystic fibrosis), or context-dependent (e.g. polymorphism for sickle cell anemia).

Also, what is required to be able to edit this page? I have a PhD from Harvard. Thanks. CellbioPhD (talk) 05:22, 23 November 2014 (UTC)cellbiophd

anyone can edit the page. if your edit is not good, it will be reverted. this is natural especially when you are learning, so don't take it personally. please read the introduction again. it does not say that any genetic modification is safe. what it says is very carefully worded. please the comment above, as well. Jytdog (talk) 06:21, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

CellbioPhD (talk): Thank you for your suggestion. Can we all agree this should be added to the article? David Tornheim (talk) 22:18, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Politifact: Sen. Donna Nesselbush: three quarters of processed foods have genetically modified organisms

Maybe this article or the sources it links to can be used for something, here or in one of the subarticles. [1] Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:33, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Hm. that is a pretty decent source... might be good for a general section - with the correct information from the body of that article :) Jytdog (talk) 13:36, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Discussions on scientific consensus on GMO safety elsewhere

See particularly.

FYI. The claim of "scientific consensus" on GMO safety is being discussed here and was briefly discussed here. David Tornheim (talk) 05:11, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Copyedit

Took a run through this. Feedback encouraged. Comments:

• Reduced wc by about 15%
• Still a lot of extra stuff in there that describes various foods, regardless of whether they are GM. The piece would be better without it, but since I didn't know why it was there, I let it ride.
• Added 1 cn for the Greenpeace sentence.
• Grouped the various kinds of mods.

Cheers! Lfstevens (talk) 01:36, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

thanks, i appreciate your run-through. Jytdog (talk) 03:27, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

me too. I have not had a chance to review your changes yet. David Tornheim (talk) 05:42, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Most of what I looked at where you cut out unnecessary words is good editting. This change does more than cut down words and eliminates some meaning:

• Original: "economic concerns raised by the fact that GM seeds (and potentially animals) that are food sources are subject to intellectual property rights owned by corporations."
• Revision: " the fact that some GM seeds that are food sources are subject to intellectual property rights and owned by corporations"

I request you restore it back to the original, because economic concerns are in addition to property rights, and the idea of patenting animals is an additional concern. To shorten it, this might work:

• Proposed Alternative: "economic concerns, especially intellectual property rights over food sources (currently GM seeds), and possibly animals, that become monopolistic." David Tornheim (talk) 05:59, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

I took out "economic concerns" because it was vague. If you have a citeable list of specific concerns, happy to add those. Lfstevens (talk) 16:23, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Please restore these two sentence unless all of the material is found elsewhere in the article

• "Food biotechnology has grown to include cloning of plants and animals, as well as further development in genetically modified foods in recent years."

Cloning is not GM. This article is not about biotek. The last half is too vague. If you have specifics in mind, list and source them. Lfstevens (talk) 16:23, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

• "Plants are now engineered for insect resistance, fungal resistance, viral resistance, herbicide resistance, changed nutritional content, improved taste, and improved storage."

Need cite. Lfstevens (talk) 16:23, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

In the Process section: Re Regulation: My understanding is that applications are voluntary, but I did not see that in the original or the revision of this section.

Is there such a thing as an involuntary application for anything? Lfstevens (talk) 16:23, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm stopping here for tonight...David Tornheim (talk) 06:15, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the scrutiny. Keep it up! Lfstevens (talk) 16:23, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Detection

I suggest that the emphasis on a single 5-year old primary article for this section is inappropriate. especially since Google Scholar shows it cited by only 25 articles, evidence that it has an insignificant effect on the scientific literature. Inspection of those articles citing it are almost exclusively limited to those discussing soybeans only. It's a suitable reference, but not for the long quote. DGG ( talk ) 15:32, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

WHO source

GrayDuck156, please explain your objection to the WHO source per your deletions here and here and here. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 00:21, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

First of all, I am a new editor, so I apologize in advance for any more awkwardness. As to the reason I removed that citation, the source does not support the claim. The link simply contains no support for the claim that "[t]here is broad scientific consensus that food on the market derived from GM crops poses no greater risk to human health than conventional food."

In fact, the source contradicts the claim by saying "...it is not possible to make general statements on the safety of all GM foods." Your response, that the sentence does not say "all GMO foods," is not convincing because a reader must assume that subject was implied or the sentence makes little sense. If only an unspecified subset of such foods is included then, logically, 99.9 percent of all GMO food could cause everyone to drop dead if they come within a mile of the stuff and the sentence would still make sense. How about a compromise--change "...food..." to "...an unspecified subset of food..."

I certainly hope that Wikipedia does not change from being a neutral source of information to being a propaganda vehicle. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GrayDuck156 (talk • contribs) 00:37, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for talking! That is what we do here when we disagree. it is completely true that it would be idiocy to say that "all GM food is safe". No one here will argue with that. The statement in the article does not say anything about "all GM foods". It says "currently marketed". That is a very, very small subset of "all GM foods" that could ever exist. It is also a very clear subset. The mistake you have made here, is a common one. That is why I wrote in my edit note, "please also read the actual content - it doesn't say "all GM food""

Going further, The WHO source makes it clear that there are three main theoretical concerns. The WHO source also says (emphasis added) "GM foods currently available on the international market have passed safety assessments and are not likely to present risks for human health. In addition, no effects on human health have been shown as a result of the consumption of such foods by the general population in the countries where they have been approved. Continuous application of safety assessments based on the Codex Alimentarius principles and, where appropriate, adequate post market monitoring, should form the basis for ensuring the safety of GM foods." Do you see how this source exactly supports the content now? Jytdog (talk) 00:45, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

That string of citations in the lead makes it look like we are synthesizing, or at least heavily emphasizing, the point, "'broad scientific consensus,' here, look at it all." Probably just the AAAS citation would do (the rest could go where this reappears in the body text), as the AAAS source says: 'Moreover, the AAAS Board said, the World Health Organization, the American Medical Association, the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, the British Royal Society, and “every other respected organization that has examined the evidence has come to the same conclusion: consuming foods containing ingredients derived from GM crops is no riskier than consuming the same foods containing ingredients from crop plants modified by conventional plant improvement techniques.”' In this case, that should support "broad scientific consensus," additionally supported by the further citations later on. --Tsavage (talk) 14:07, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

there are so many citations because so many people hate GMOs and come here attacking the statement. It and its sourcing were upheld in an RfC - a link to that is in the FAQ at the top of the Genetically modified food controversies article. Jytdog (talk) 14:21, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

I would agree with Tsavage that his wording sticks closer to sources without using SYNTH. Justification of the use of SYNTH has no basis in WP policy. I disagree that all discussion should come to halt once a past RfC is referenced; this seems a tactic also not based in PAGs.

I first raised the issue of this "scientific consensus" string of refs at the March Against Monsanto article, where it was inserted early in the creation of the article, but without any reference to the March. It remains one of the most egregious violations of WP:SYNTH on WP that I have seen.

I notice that the "scientific consensus" is elaborated upon in the controversy section. This makes no sense unless it is being used as a rebuttal. Much like in the MAM article, this is a violation of WP:OR. Why should this be under "controversy" rather than in its own section:

There is broad scientific consensus that food on the market derived from GM crops poses no greater risk than conventional food. No reports of ill effects have been documented in the human population from GM food. The starting point for assessing GM food safety is to evaluate its similarity to the non-modified version. Further testing is then done on a case-by-case basis to ensure that concerns over potential toxicity and allergenicity are satisfied.

The second portion of this paragraph mentions the labeling aspect, but reads more like a PR statement for the FDA (which is currently run by a former VP and lobbyist for Monsanto):

Although labeling of GMO products in the marketplace is required in 64 countries, the US does not require this. The FDA's policy is to require a label given significant differences in composition or health impacts. They have not identified such differences in any food currently approved for sale.

I'm seeing violations of WP:SYNTH, WP:OR as well as what seems like Advocacy. (Mentioning this should not be construed as "GMO hating".) petrarchan47คุก 23:20, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

The WP community saw none of those things in the RfC. Jytdog (talk) 04:31, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

You're saying that 1/3 of the controversy section being used to reiterate consensus of safety (rather than to discuss controversy) was addressed in an RfC? Can you link to this discussion please? petrarchan47คุก 08:59, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

After 3 attempts to procure said discussion, I have gone ahead and removed the safety section from "Controversy", and to this section added the percentage of Americans who favor labeling (which is what makes it controversial) as well as the new USDA labeling program. petrarchan47คุก 04:57, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

@Jytdog:"Do you see how this source exactly supports the content now?" I disagree with your logic. The WHO claiming that some GMO foods "have passed safety assessments" is not equivalent to the WHO pronouncing that broad scientific consensus exists that food on the market derived from GM crops poses no greater risk to human health than conventional food--especially considering that the WHO neglected to cite any independently-administered clinical trials. Moreover, The WHO claiming that some GMO foods are not likely to present risks for human health is not equivalent to the WHO pronouncing that those foods pose "no greater risk to human health than conventional food." Skydiving is not likely to present risks for human health (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parachuting#Safety), but that hardly means that skydiving poses no greater risk to human health than other forms of recreation like reading or walking.GrayDuck156 (talk) 00:45, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

I hear you; that is your interpretation. If you read all the sources there, they add up to the same thing. There is no basis - no mechanism for toxicity - for questioning the safety of currently marketed GM food relative to conventional food. Which is not perfectly safe. The comparison with skydiving is not apt, at all. Jytdog (talk) 05:13, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

@Jytdog: "If you read all the sources there, they add up to the same thing." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research#Synthesis_of_published_material: "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources." I think this sentence is clear in saying that your defense is not valid. "There is no basis...for questioning the safety of currently marketed GM food relative to conventional food." This is your opinion, not a statement in the WHO web page. "Which is not perfectly safe." I do not see how this sentence relates to whether the WHO citation supports the claim in the article. "The comparison with skydiving is not apt, at all." Please explain.GrayDuck156 (talk) 05:36, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

What we do here is read reliable sources and summarize them. Summarizing is not synthesis. really, you are beating a dead horse here. Jytdog (talk) 05:38, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

@Jytdog: The point is that the WHO article lends no support to the sentence the citation claims to support. None whatsoever. And, as I pointed out below, none of the commenters in that somewhat-related RfC argued in favor of keeping the WHO citation.GrayDuck156 (talk) 06:04, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

I suggest taking a look at this conversation where the consensus statement was recently discussed. There's more going on than just the WHO statement, but we've got adequate sourcing for the statement in general. Also, you might want to read WP:THREAD since you're new to the talk pages. If you indent your comments, we can know who you're replying to. Your last comment technically started a new thread in this section, but that's fine to break things up too for now. Kingofaces43 (talk) 00:59, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

@Kingofaces43: Thanks for the tips. With regard to your substantive comment, my concern with the WHO citation is not that it is overkill, but that it simply does not lend support to the claim in the article. You and Jytdog have been specific about which sentence you believe lends credence to the sentence, but I have explained why I disagree. Thus, I think you and Jytdog need to explain your analysis in more detail to justify your position that the citation should remain in the article. Please note that I think some of the comments in this thread have become a little off topic. My concern, at least in this context, is only with the WHO citation and its failure to support the preceding sentence in the article.

And I don't agree. And neither does the community. Again, please read the RfC, and please read about RfCs (here WP:RFC) before you continue arguing. You cannot change things by pounding away on dead horses, that the community has already affirmed. Nothing has changed science-wise since the RfC. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 05:24, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

@Jytdog:The RfC addressed whether the sentence should remain, not whether the WHO citation should remain. Only one commenter addressed that citation; his assessment of it was entirely negative.GrayDuck156 (talk) 05:52, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

not explicitly mentioning it, is just that. the statement and its sourcing were upheld. And the source does support the statement. I have no idea what is at stake for you here. You clearly misread the content when you started and you are just shifting ground here. I suggest you drop the stick. Jytdog (talk) 05:57, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog Re: "I have no idea what is at stake for you here." What is at stake for you in preserving a citation that does not support the claim presented within the text?? Please read: WP:WHYCITE. GregKaye 15:08, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Comment placed out of chronological sequence

@Jytdog: With regard to the citation overkill, there is no need for it because "broad scientific consensus" (or some equivalent wording) appears to be supported in this case by the AAAS statement, for one. If each of those reports actually say there is general consensus (which they all do not), then they are redundant, especially in a lead where no citations are required if the material is a summary of body content. If those sources are simply individual examples of "no harm" findings, then this is some form of synthesis, where a conclusion is being drawn from a number of items - it is not a simple summary to add up a series of documents pronouncing on complex scientific issues to arrive at a brief original summary phrase (no matter how routinely that may be done by topic experts in their professional circles). My point, though, is that a line of citations does not give confidence to the reader.

The RfC on "broad scientific consensus" is not "the WP community" it is a dozen or so editors (WP:CONLIMITED), taking the "informal process for requesting outside input" of an WP:RFC on a daughter article Talk page, attempting to approve original research against core guidance, WP:RS/AC "The statement that all or most scientists or scholars hold a certain view requires reliable sourcing that directly says that all or most scientists or scholars hold that view. Otherwise, individual opinions should be identified as those of particular, named sources. Editors should avoid original research especially with regard to making blanket statements based on novel syntheses of disparate material. Stated simply, any statement in Wikipedia that academic consensus exists on a topic must be sourced rather than being based on the opinion or assessment of editors."

This, like other similar arguments I have seen recently on various science and medicine pages, seem to be all about the editors and their opinions, often to the detriment of content accessibility, when our only good reason to be editing is to write a usable encyclopedia for general readers. My original comment here is about editorial presentation within all other content guidance, and the argument in reply is about other considerations that apparently override basic readability, meanwhile, hitting a wall of citations in a lead makes me wonder as reader what is going on, and begin to mistrust what I am reading. The reason for the multiple citations, as I interpret from the reply, is "citation overkill as a preemptive measure to satisfy the inevitable unreasonable anti-GMO editors who will routinely show up, this tactic in part based on an article-level RfC that attempts to override core guidance by legitimizing a piece of original research." That's a lot for an editor to contend with, and yet it is tossed off as routine. It's not a good state of things. --Tsavage (talk) 08:13, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean by "article level RfC". The RfC was on a specific statement, with its sourcing. Jytdog (talk) 12:11, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

• I agree with nearly everything said by GrayDuck156, Tsavage and Petrarchan47 about the problems with the claimed "scientific consensus" statement and the use of the WHO statement and other sources in its defense and agree that the sentence is little more than WP:OR and WP:SYN. The sources for that WP:OR originate from pro-GMO industry biased writers like Pamela Ronald and Jon Entine (and his Genetic Literacy Project). These problems exist regardless of conflicted commentary in the old RfC, which had numerous valid objections, was not even close to unanimous, which even the closer noted was less than conclusive about the use of the sources. The closer also noted concerns with bias and balance that were oft repeated in that RfC, before and after that RfC. Above GrayDuck156 said "Please note that I think some of the comments in this thread have become a little off topic." I do want to respect that concern; however, in talking about whether the WHO statement can be used to support the sentence comes in the context of the RfC, the other sources, the WP:OR issues and the problem with undue weight, etc., so it is hard for me to discuss without considering the entire context that sentence is found which makes it so problematic and biased. Please also note previous concerns I raised here and LesVegas raised here, and sources I provided here that challenge the bogus "scientific consensus" statement. I will likely create a new topic just about the "scientific consensus" as I did previously, or we can continue here. David Tornheim (talk) 23:51, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
• As is discussed here, the evidence for the "broad scientific consensus" claim is very bad. The dateless authorless WHO FAQ especially so. GrayDuck is correct that this source makes direct statements against the claim at hand! As can be seen from the linked page, the WHO FAQ has been used to support the questionable "scientific consensus" claim for more than two years. These sources flagrantly violate the purported standards for reliable sources on medical issues (WP:MEDRS), while peer-reviewed literature reviews — e.g. (Redacted) — are disregarded. Yet Wikiproject Medicine, despite numerous red flags (ping User:Doc James ping User:SandyGeorgia) seems unwilling to act. The reluctance to change the "scientific consensus" statement undermines the credibility of WikiProject Medicine and of Wikipedia as a whole, and represents a serious ethical issue. groupuscule (talk) 00:15, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, Groupuscule. Science-based editors follow the science. It is apparently time to affirm the RfC we already had. Anew for each generation (and remnants of the old who cannot drop the stick....) Jytdog (talk) 00:59, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Your RfC is unnecessarily confusing, and distracts from my main point here, and what seems to be one of the overall general points in this thread, which is the wall of citations. --Tsavage (talk) 03:51, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

So what are we expected to do here, just tell Jytdog how brilliant he is and how foolish we were to question the inclusion of the WHO citation? He has not made a serious attempt at discussing the issue with an open mind. He has not provided any quotation on that web page that is equivalent to the sentence it purports to substantiate, nor has he explained why he thinks the WHO FAQ lends support to the sentence (to say nothing about whether it does so without violating the synthesis rule). The onus is clearly on Jytdog to continue this discussion without insulting attempts at premature conclusion ("I suggest you drop the stick"). GrayDuck156 (talk) 15:59, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Please discuss content, not contributors. You started a thread on a specific source; others took it to the broader discussion of the consensus statement as a whole. That happens here. Let's see where things stand on the bigger question and if you still believe you are right we can address that next. Jytdog (talk) 19:53, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

No; we have obligation or reason to suspend this discussion until you have found somebody who will take your side. If you have no basis for your position--and it is becoming rather obvious that you do not--, we should proceed on that basis. GrayDuck156 (talk) 18:09, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

The FAQ WHO page never claims that there is a scientific consensus on whether GM foods are as safe as conventional foods and, considering their partnership with the United Nations Environment Programme on the contradictory International Assessment of Agricultural Knowledge, Science and Technology for Development, published in 2009, I doubt that is how the WHO meant for their page to be interpreted. The assessment reports that there are a limited number of properly designed and independently peer-reviewed studies on human health related to GM food. It also notes that, of the limited numbers of studies published, some have found adverse effects. This partnership suggests that the WHO would not agree with your evaluation of their FAQ page and, even if that is what they meant to say, the UN assessment points out that such a conclusion of consensus is wrong. If you all have been so confused about how the WHO feels on this issue, why don't you just send them an email instead of applying your personal interpretations to their page? Their contact form is here: http://www.who.int/about/contact_form/en/ 66.169.76.198 (talk) 07:48, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

I have no problem with anyone requesting that the WHO take an official position on the sentence. While we wait for them to do so, however, the current citation needs to substantiate the statement. GrayDuck156 (talk) 18:12, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

anything communicated privately from the WHO would not mean anything in WP. Perhaps they might update their website....Jytdog (talk) 19:20, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

I think we have achieved consensus that the WHO citation should be deleted. We all agree that the web page does not directly state that there is broad scientific consensus that food on the market derived from GM crops poses no greater risk to human health than conventional food. We also know that Wikipedia policy forbids claims of academic consensus when no direct assertion exists in the purported sources and that "participants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy or guideline does not apply to articles within its scope." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Consensus) Even pretending that the direct statement problem could be overcome, we all seem to agree that the WHO cite does not even contain the lesser claim that any subset of GMO foods pose "no greater risk to human health than conventional food." Thus, it adds no support for the sentence whatsoever. It might support other relevant assertions, like "GM foods currently available on the international market...are not likely to present risks for human health," but not the sentence it currently purports to support.

Jytdog has suggested that we should count the votes of the people who have tangentially supported the citation in the RfCs. Wikipedia policy is clear that they are not relevant to the discussion: "Consensus on Wikipedia does not mean...the result of a vote. ... In determining consensus, consider the quality of the arguments, the history of how they came about, the objections of those who disagree, and existing policies and guidelines. The quality of an argument is more important than whether it represents a minority or a majority view. The arguments 'I just don't like it' and 'I just like it' usually carry no weight whatsoever." At no point has anyone in either this thread or either of the related RfCs presented any argument for how any statement in the WHO page supports the specific sentence at issue. The commenters in the new RfC are mainly engaging in a political debate about GMO foods, which is not relevant to this discussion.

If someone is worried that the article will not put GMO foods in an adequately positive light without the citation, surely you can find better ways of improving the article than insisting on keeping a bogus citation.

All that said, I think the time is coming soon to go ahead and remove the citation. If Jytdog insists on trying to block that move, I think we need to pursue higher-level dispute resolution. GrayDuck156 (talk) 19:52, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

As I wrote above, the conversation that followed on your original post soon overtook your point and went to broader issues. That happens here. It would be a bad move to mess with the the sourcing of the statement under discussion in the RfC, while the RfC is underway - that would be disruptive. There is WP:NODEADLINE here. Let the RfC run its course. Oh - and please read WP:RFC - it is not a headcount. (this is what I mean - you hardly understand how things work here) Jytdog (talk) 21:54, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

• Please correct me if I am wrong in counting but so far editors within this discussion who are favour of the removal of the WHO citation are: GrayDuck156 Tsavage petrarchan47 Kingofaces43 David Tornheim GregKaye with the one editor so far against being: Jytdog,

Re Grayduck156's comment, "Jytdog has suggested that we should count the votes of the people who have tangentially supported the citation in the RfCs." I agree with the view that "Wikipedia policy is clear that they are not relevant to the discussion" However if any editor regards that a wider consensus is required then one way forward would be to ping all contributors of, for instance, the mentioned discussion.

Meanwhile I do not think that consensus here could be any more clear with WP:consensus being defined as, the best method to achieve Wikipedia's goals. Correct me if there is any p&g that indicates otherwise but I think that the most appropriate way forward would be to make the change and give notification in the RfC of both the change and the presence of this discussion so as to open up to other views. We also, I think, would require a p&g based reason for the retention of the WHO citation should there be support for it to be kept. GregKaye 15:51, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Greg, look again at who is actually talking about the WHO source (you can use control F and look). You will see that only GrayDuck, me, and kingofaces directly discuss it; david tornheim and groupuscule mention it in the course of discussing their unhappiness with the consensus statement generally, and tsavage and petrarcan don't even mention it. the conversation broadened with tsavage's remark which came right after mine. everybody else talks about broader issues and that includes tornheim and groupuscule. and kingofaces does not say that he opposes use of the source. Per the WP:TPG please do not misrespresent what other people write. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 16:13, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

JytdogYou write things like, "do not misrespresent what other people write".

I said "Please correct me if I am wrong in counting" and openly pinged all editors for comment:

Tsavage said, "That string of citations in the lead makes it look like we are synthesizing, or at least heavily emphasizing, the point," and s/he seems to me to regard the whole thing as unjustified by its citations.

david tornheim said, "I agree with nearly everything said by GrayDuck156, Tsavage and Petrarchan47 about the problems with the claimed "scientific consensus" statement and the use of the WHO statement and other sources in its defense and agree that the sentence is little more than WP:OR and WP:SYN." and the same applies.

groupuscule said, the evidence for the "broad scientific consensus" claim is very bad. The dateless authorless WHO FAQ especially so. GrayDuck is correct that this source makes direct statements against the claim at hand!"

petrarchan47 said, "I'm seeing violations of WP:SYNTH, WP:OR as well as what seems like Advocacy." basically seeing the content as unsupported by citations inclusive of the one from WHO

Fair enough about kingofaces who has not stated a view one way or another and who was infact the initial editor to revert the initial citation removal which was then with comment "Restore unexplained removal of source". GregKaye 19:12, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

At an entomology meeting, so I won't be able to jump into this conversation for another day or two. I will toss my hat in for now to say the source should not be removed. Glancing over the conversation though, I have not seen any arguments that would result in consensus that the source should be removed. Kingofaces43 (talk) 19:38, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Also Greg, please strike your characterization of me agreeing with removing the source. Nothing I've said or done here in terms of edits should have ever led someone to believe that. Kingofaces43 (talk) 19:49, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

RfC - "The scientific consensus holds that currently marketed GM food poses no greater risk than conventional food."

In 2013 we had an RfC, here, that upheld challenges to the scientific consensus statement below (presented with its full paragraph):

A broad scientific consensus holds that eating currently marketed GM food poses no greater health risk than does eating conventional food. No reports of ill effects have been documented in the human population. In 2012, the American Association for the Advancement of Science stated that "consuming foods containing ingredients derived from GM crops is no riskier than consuming the same foods containing ingredients from crop plants modified by conventional plant improvement techniques." The American Medical Association, the National Academies of Sciences and the Royal Society of Medicine have stated that no adverse human health effects related to GM food have been reported and/or substantiated in peer-reviewed literature to date.

References

That statement undergoes constant challenge, so it is perhaps time to review it again. The question: Do the sources support the content? Jytdog (talk) 01:01, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

• note amended statement to more clearly focus on "eating" to clarify that it is a statement about food safety. Jytdog (talk) 20:15, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

and notified each per who already !voted. Jytdog (talk) 21:11, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

@Jytdog: I disagree with your making changes to the original RfC statement, which has been under discussion to this point. Please restore to the original version. --Tsavage (talk) 21:20, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Furthermore, I see you made the change to secure a "vote" from BlueRaspberry, as he clearly states in his comment below, where he strikes his Oppose and says: "Support. The statement and this RfC have been modified to clarify that this is about the safety of eating the food." What is this RfC actually about, anyhow? --Tsavage (talk) 21:27, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

the scope came up in several comments, and food safety was always the intended scope. the RfC question is very clearly stated and neutral: Do the sources support the content? which arose in the thread above. Jytdog (talk) 21:43, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

You've materially altered what we have been discussing, to the degree that an editor has switched his position based on your changes. You can't tailor things as you go to get the outcomes you're after, which seems to be the case. Please revert, and first get consensus from the participants here who have already considered the originally wording. --Tsavage (talk) 21:53, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

non-neutral addition to RfC statement. Jytdog (talk) 21:15, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Additional comment: A current issue is with the use of a large number of citations to support the summary/conclusion of "broad scientific consensus." If this is clearly stated in solid secondary sources, it should take one or two citations to establish, not a dozen or more. Citation overkill, conveying an impression of biased content, and synthesis of at least some of these sources (WP:RS/AC), are specific issues central to this RfC. --Tsavage (talk) 04:02, 30 May 2015 (UTC) Agree. TFD (talk) 22:24, 31 May 2015 (UTC) just noticed this earlier today. this is not an appropriate way to amend the RfC statement as it makes actual claims instead of asking a neutral question. I hatted it earlier, then removed that. am restoring the hat. Jytdog (talk) 21:15, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Survey

• Support This is a politically hot topic; and people are emotional about food. But the science is clear, and the sources support the content. No science has emerged since 2013 that changes the scientific consensus. Jytdog (talk) 01:08, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support The broad scientific consensus about the safety of GM foods is clear. The consensus for the inclusion on the material of this stands. I was unable to find any major scientific evidence suggesting that this has changed since 2013. Instead I have found a 2015 Pew Research Center study that found that the percentage of AAAS scientists which agree that GM Foods are safe (88%) is even higher than the percentage that agree that humans are causing global warming (87%).[2] 88% of scientists is enough to establish a broad scientific consensus on top of the sources already provided. Winner 42 Talk to me! 01:54, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
  • If you believed that the sources supported the content, why did you feel the need to search for additional support? GrayDuck156 (talk) 16:25, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

@GrayDuck156: Because I exercise due diligence and research the subject before commenting at RfCs rather than merely spouting my personal beliefs? Winner 42 Talk to me! 16:27, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

The purpose of this RfC is not to debate GMO foods, it is to discuss whether the citations support the sentence in the article. The WHO citation, specifically, does not support it. Nowhere on that web page does the WHO assert that "[t]here is broad scientific consensus that food on the market derived from GM crops poses no greater risk to human health than conventional food." Jytdog is arguing that that the WHO article, taken together with the other citations, leads to that conclusion. Even if that argument was true (which it is not, at least with respect to the WHO citation), the rules of Wikipedia explicitly disallow such synthesis: "The statement that all or most scientists or scholars hold a certain view requires reliable sourcing that directly says that all or most scientists or scholars hold that view. ...[A]ny statement in Wikipedia that academic consensus exists on a topic must be sourced rather than being based on the opinion or assessment of editors."WP:RS/AC GrayDuck156 (talk) 17:35, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

So instead of commenting on the additional source I just provided, you are cherry picking one source that only moderately supports the statement. 88% can be considered "most scientists" by any reasonable definition of the word. Trying to imply that these statements provided by Jytdog, are synth is inaccurate and a very broad interpretation of the policy. WP:SYNTHNOT definitely applies here, specifically this section. Winner 42 Talk to me! 18:29, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Sorry if you feel I'm butting in on your argument, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the Pew survey doesn't directly support "broad scientific consensus," does it? That survey queries around 4,000 US-based scientists (defined by AAAS membership) of all sorts, not specialists in any GM-related area. So as "scientists," I guess we can assume that they are expert in evaluating evidence-based findings, but beyond that, it's not clear how many have actually reviewed GM food research in any systematic way, professionally or personally. Pew seems to be comparing views of the US general population, with the views of a subset, "scientists," on a range of topics, including GM food. It's not about scientific evidence. (And WP:RS/AC seems startlingly explicit and on-point for this situation, compare to many WP rules.) --Tsavage (talk) 19:08, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Because it's more recent and those editors who disagree continue to raise the subject? Lfstevens (talk) 22:35, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

• The 2015 Pew science and society study (of US AAAS scientists and US public) has some startling/troubling stuff. Compared to 88% of surveyed scientists believing GM food is safe to eat, 57% of the public believes it's unsafe, and 67% of the public believe scientists don't understand the health risks. Meanwhile, 52% of the scientists believe the best scientific info guides government regulation sometimes/never (as opposed to always/mostly). It seems like a nightmare of mistrust all around (at least, in the US), and it's near impossible to find the line between scientific evidence, and interpretation through regulation and through political considerations in general. A lot of this seems US-based, where a big chunk of the money, technology, and reporting comes from. A member of the "bordering on scientifically illiterate American public" (per one commentary on the Pew study) coming to this article and finding 18-19 citations to support a simply stated conclusion is not likely to be any better off for it, and probably more confused and annoyed than ever. Working out the language, to readable, easily verifiable standards, seems quite important here, since we're talki9ng about our planetary food supply. :) --Tsavage (talk) 13:38, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support the discussion of GMOs covers a broad range of issues, but safety to human health isn't one of them, and the scientific consensus continues to hold that current marketed GMOs have no novel risks to human health.TypingAway (talk) 02:06, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
• Comment If it takes (by my count) 18 19 sources to support "broad scientific consensus," something is wrong. If we could reduce that to the best two or three, it should be relatively simple to determine if support is there. --Tsavage (talk) 04:19, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, something is wrong. We have good sources for broad scientific consensus, and some people wish there wasn't, so they basically keep waving them away one by one and demanding more. You can see this in the reaction to eh AAAS paper. This is a high level summary by a scientific body of national standing, yet people are treating it as if it were a primary source, because they don't like what it says. Guy (Help!) 21:03, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Guess there is no accounting for taste! As far as I can tell (from a quick look, Jytdog would know the details, he was involved all through), this heavily cited "broad scientific consensus" wording started in the lead of the GM food controversies article, Nov-2012 (related Talk discussion), with six citations, including AAAS discussed here and five others, which I skimmed for conclusions. At a glance, none of them seem to clearly support the wording of "broad consensus," so it's likely the later accumulation of citations was meant to further compensate for a lack of a definitive source or two. Here is a summary from one of the original five other citations:

"All evidence evaluated to date indicates that unexpected and unintended compositional changes arise with all forms of genetic modification, including genetic engineering. Whether such compositional changes result in unintended health effects is dependent upon the nature of the substances altered and the biological consequences of the compounds. To date, no adverse health effects attributed to genetic engineering have been documented in the human population."[3]

From that to "broad scientific consensus for no greater risk to human health than conventional food" as a simple paraphrase or summary may be fine for some but understandably not for others (to me, the former is quite far from the fairly resounding endorsement that is the latter, more of a "so good, so far"; am I missing the expert interpretation of the careful report language, or is keeping an eye out and hoping for the best, scientifically, all that's reasonably expected?). It seems to come down to what constitutes reliable sourcing for this particular (fully optional) statement. --Tsavage (talk) 23:36, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

• Question and comment Do any of these sources specifically say what WP is saying? If the phrase "broad scientific consensus" does not exist in any of the refs, we cannot use it per SYNTH and OR. If there is a strong source for this phrase, we can use just the one or two sources using it. No RfC can override these basic rules of WP. We don't get to summarize and come up with novel conclusions. Further, I wonder if anyone has done the work of investigating whether the sources used are what we would consider independent. petrarchan47คุก 04:33, 30 Mahttp://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10977&page=8y 2015 (UTC)
• No Support via No scientific consensus on GMO safety: A broad community of independent scientific researchers and scholars challenges recent claims of a consensus over the safety of genetically modified organisms (GMOs). In the following joint statement, the claimed consensus is shown to be an artificial construct that has been falsely perpetuated through diverse fora. Irrespective of contradictory evidence in the refereed literature, as documented below, the claim that there is now a consensus on the safety of GMOs continues to be widely and often uncritically aired. There is no consensus, and WP cannot continue to air this claim. petrarchan47คุก 05:33, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

That source carries no weight against sources supplied in support of the overwhelming consensus that GM foods are just as safe as the genetically modified foods humans have been consuming for thousands of years. — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 07:08, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Now we have two sources. One a survey of AAAS and another an organized statement of a group of critics. I'd say the survey has to be counted more trustworthy. And that's in addition to the other, earlier sources. Is there a countering survey that supports the critique? Lfstevens (talk) 22:35, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm thinking you didn't read the source. And you are showing a lack of understanding about what genetically modified foods are. Hybridized foods have been around thousands of years, but GMOs were born in a lab in the 90's. The source above should be read with great care, as these 300 scientists and doctors have called out Wikipedia specifically in the document. See reference 16, and note their mentions of an "Internet website". This is a serious black eye for WP. petrarchan47คุก 08:44, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Think what you will, the source remains worthless nonetheless. And no, it's not my lack of understanding that is showing. — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 12:18, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Remember this discussion isn't about whether GMOs are or are not safe or whatever. It's about what the scientific community has concluded, if anything. Lfstevens (talk) 22:35, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

As of this January, the referenced letter "No Scientific Consensus on GMO Safety" has been published in the peer-reviewed journal Environmental Sciences Europe so, I do not think that your opinion of this letter as "worthless" is warranted. The letter also points out that the review "A Decade of EU-funded GMO Research" fails to provide "evidence for sweeping claims about the safety of any single GM food or of GM crops in general" because none of the studies cited in the review tested commercialized GM food or studied effects for a period longer than 90 days. This EU review is used to support the claim that "food on the market derived from GM crops poses no greater risk to human health than conventional food" in the introduction to this article, and so the EU review should be removed from the list of citations supporting that claim.

It's not worthless, but it doesn't per se refute the "consensus" claim. It shows the existence of a competing point of view. Now the question is, which view reflects the consensus, if there is one. Consensus isn't unanimity... Lfstevens (talk) 02:54, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

If your point of disagreement with the "No Scientific Consensus" letter is because it is a letter (now published in a peer-reviewed journal) rather than a study, please note that I discuss the reasons why scientists have frequently been unable to legally study and publish health studies related to GM food further down in the discussion. The issue of scarce independent health studies on GM food is also noted by the United Nations Environment Programme in their International Assessment of Agricultural Knowledge, Science and Technology for Development, published in 2009. 66.169.76.198 (talk) 00:12, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

That is not the point of disagreement. The point of disagreement is that the AAAS statement is a review statement by a scientific body of national standing, whereas your preferred source is a letter to a journal by a group of individuals. The problems is one of WP:PARITY. It does not help your case that their first cited source has already been retracted once, and there have been serious questions about its re-publication and the way the authors chose to go about it. Guy (Help!) 21:08, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

As noted elsewhere, the UN and AND both state that there is no scientific consensus. The reports from these two groups were extensive, collaborative efforts. The AAAS letter from the Board of Directors is a short statement of opinion from a small group of people, one of whom is a former lobbyist with the biotech company Sigma-Aldrich Chemical. The AAAS BoD statement was issued shortly before a vote on GM food labeling in California, a bill which Sigma-Aldrich Chemical opposed. If we are to interpret this letter as uninfluenced by her questionable connection to the issue, then please explain why you think it's reasonable to then be so critical of the connections that you question regarding the "No Scientific Consensus" letter, which was signed by more people, and published in a peer-reviewed journal. 66.169.76.198 (talk) 22:45, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Sources please. They may allow us to move forward. Lfstevens (talk) 02:54, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

• How's this, Lfstevens? (TL;DR: 2011 peer reviewed study of recent peer-reviewed literature finds that half showed no differences between GM foods and conventional, and the other half found cause for concern.) petrarchan47คุก 05:51, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

• support sources support the content--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 10:02, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support: Sources seem to support the statement. Petrarchan's source merits consideration; however I'd like to see some more studies supporting it to dispel concerns about due weight. Plus, it seems to talk more about reliability concerns of the current research (which don't necessarily invalidate it) and less about the contested statement. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:27, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose / not sure I have not followed this issue so do not know all of the context, nor do I know the sources so well, but I expect that "A broad scientific consensus holds that currently marketed GM food poses no greater risk than conventional food" is not an accurate reflection of the sources. What I would expect to see is a claim that ""A broad scientific consensus holds that currently marketed GM food poses no greater risk for an individual to eat than conventional food". I think the intention here is to focus on the safety of including GM food in an individual person's diet, and I think the scientific consensus is that there is no distinction between GM food and conventional food at the level of the individual. I do not recognize that level of scientific agreement concerning all other aspects of genetically modified food, including those listed at Genetically_modified_food_controversies#Environment which have nothing to do with its safety to eat. Blue Rasberry (talk) 10:48, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Bluerasberry the statement is only meant to be about eating (e.g. the version of this in the lead of the GM food controversy article, says "While there is concern among the public that eating genetically modified food may be harmful, there is broad scientific consensus that food on the market derived from these crops poses no greater risk to human health than conventional food." I agree that this is a more clear statement. I do think the paragraph is very clear that it is about eating food, and not the many other issues that are controversial (e.g environment, market dynamics, etc). But is that why you are opposing, b/c the sentence is not explicit enough, that it is about eating GM food? thx Jytdog (talk) 11:25, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog Yes, my opposition is only for the lack of clarity that the consensus is about safety as nutrition for individuals. I think there is not scientific consensus of the safety of GM food as a societal food source considering environmental impact and social issues. Blue Rasberry (talk) 11:45, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

OK,Bluerasberry (sorry to keep pinging you - if you are watching this page let me know and i will stop) - would you be OK with the statement above from the GM food controversy article? If so I will amend; that is reaasonable. I believe the "support" votes have been directed to the 'safe-to-eat' idea, as many of them said. Jytdog (talk) 13:10, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog I still direct my support to the "safe to eat" concept and withhold it for other contexts. With the claim "there is broad scientific consensus that food on the market derived from these crops poses no greater risk to human health than conventional food" I still think too much is expressed regarding consensus beyond "safe to eat", so I do not support that statement. I would like to pause discussing this because so many others have ideas here. "Safe to eat" is a concise statement that probably works, or maybe not. I am not sure. Blue Rasberry (talk) 19:56, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Quoting directly from one of the sources presented on this page, "There is broad scientific consensus that genetically engineered crops currently on the market are safe to eat." I support any statement which expresses that and does not imply more. I struck my oppose to indicate that I support the intent of what is being discussed here, even if I disagree with the proposed wording. I hope that the wording can be changed to bring focus to "safe to eat" and not express consensus for "safe in all contexts". Blue Rasberry (talk) 20:12, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Support The statement and this RfC have been modified to clarify that this is about the safety of eating the food. Yes, I agree that the sources support the claim made here. Blue Rasberry (talk) 21:11, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose The WHO web page does not contain a statement that is equivalent to the sentence it purports to substantiate. Nor does it claim that any subset of GMO foods pose "no greater risk to human health than conventional food." — Preceding unsigned comment added by GrayDuck156 (talk • contribs) 16:18, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Do you have any thoughts on the other 7 sources used to substantiate that statement? TypingAway (talk) 17:29, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

• That is the same question we are asking of readers, to verify a sweeping statement like "broad scientific consensus" with a total of 19 cited sources. That's unreasonable. Big statement, solid source, else we have to find a more accessible way to summarize the research, satisfying both readability and reader verifiability. --Tsavage (talk) 01:11, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
• Jytdog is arguing in the WHO citation thread, above, that anyone who expresses support for the citations collectively is in complete agreement with each and every one of those citations. I want to be clear that I do not believe that the WHO citation supports the claim. GrayDuck156 (talk) 04:09, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

• Support While I would prefer to use a quote from one of the sources rather than hammering out language intra-WP, I don't find a substantial reason to reject the current lanaguage. I would certainly entertain alternative proposaled language that the community could consider. Lfstevens (talk) 22:35, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
• Some revisions are desirable. The overall thrust of the statement, and the provision of many source citations, are accurate. However, sources like the AAAS statement attests to the safety of currently marketed GM food based on regulation of GM food, in particular, the requirement that added proteins be shown to be non-toxic and non-allergenic. This is a crucial dependency. There is no law of nature that would stop me from taking any toxin from any species (subject to compatibility of glycosylation and other processing) and putting it into a GM plant. It would be difficult, yes, and obviously it wouldn't pay outside of some very specialized and hopefully hypothetical marketplace, but in scientific terms, it is not impossible. For a realistic example, see [4]. More generally see pharming (genetics); the accidental diversion or contamination of crops isn't that far-fetched a scenario. To address this, 1) In front of "In 2012, the American Association for the Advancement of Science stated..." I would append "Noting United States regulations that require any added proteins be proven neither toxic nor allergenic, ..." 2) I'd prefer to add "the" in front of "currently marketed" to emphasize that a specific range of foods is addressed 3) considerable work could be done to make the focus of this article less U.S.-centric regarding toxicity - we should have sources in other paragraphs to address the question of whether anyone, anywhere on Earth is growing untested, potentially toxic GM foods and bringing them to markets. Wnt (talk) 01:35, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

all that stuff, is not about the subject sentence. (this is one of reasons why we get objections - people treat it, as though it says something it doesn't.) . pharming crops are not GM food. and the statement is not about any theoretical food, it is about currently marketed food. the limitation about US violates GLOBAL and is not accurate, as regulators around the world look at the same basic things. Jytdog (talk) 03:10, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

I'd like to reiterate that the statement you are referring to is not a sweeping claim of consensus from the AAAS. It was written by the AAAS Board of Directors and, considering that a group of scientists formally issued a letter of disagreement on a separate issue with the Board's statement, I see no reason to interpret the rest of the Board's letter as scientific evidence. The letter is neither a scientific literature review, nor a statement of official policy from the AAAS. 66.169.76.198 (talk) 08:58, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

The AAAS Board are speaking for the AAAS. We correctly represent this as a corporate statement. Guy (Help!) 09:49, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

My point in noting the letter of disagreement to that AAAS statement is to point out that a letter from a Board of Directors does not equate to agreement from the members of that society, This letter serves to prove what the board thinks, and nothing more. There was also a clear conflict of interest from the board, which published the letter shortly before a vote on a GM labeling bill in California. The chair of the board is Nina Federoff, previously a board member with the Sigma-Aldrich Chemical Company.66.169.76.198 (talk) 10:30, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support: References 2, 4 and 7 are the strongest; the others could be folded into 8 as "other sources". Addition of watering-down text such as "currently marketed" is not NPOV. It suggests that the intuition of those who oppose GM foods is correct, and that evidence to support them must be out there somewhere. Roches (talk) 03:02, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose I have laid out my argument against this claim, and the problems with those sources which I felt like reviewing, in the discussion. You can find my most extensive comment by searching for "In regards to your comment that this article is about actual GM food, Jytdog," 66.169.76.198 (talk) 08:16, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support. Wikipedia reflects the world as it is, not as some people wish or fear it to be. I cannot find a single documented incident of provable harm in over three decades of routine use of GMOs, or any reputable scientific body that identifies any proven harm. I also find no evidence of any objectively quantifiable shift in scientific opinion away from safety since the last RfC. Opposition to golden rice has also exposed major flaws in the arguments of anti-GMO activists, showing that many of the sources which claimed to be based on science are, in fact, founded on irrational reaction to the idea of GMOs - which is one of the major factors that persuaded me to re-evaluate my own views. If anything the matter is clearer now than it was then and the nature of dissenting opinion more clearly identified as philosophical rather than scientific. Guy (Help!) 09:27, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

As I point out further down in the discussion, the ongoing issue regarding patent-blocking of health studies on GM foods-- an issue that the United Nations Environment Programme also comments on in their International Assessment of Agricultural Knowledge, Science and Technology for Development Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics-- explains the disconcerting lack of overall health studies on this issue, as well as, more specifically, the lack of rigorous studies showing the potential for adverse effects. This lack of study has been repeatedly quantified by Domingo and has been noted by the United Nations Environment Programme and the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, among others. These two agencies also state that there is no scientific consensus on whether GM foods are as safe as conventional foods. I have already linked these sources several times in this discussion, and as of yet have received no response from folks in support of the RfC claim.

I'd also like to point out that, despite this lack of study on health issues related to GM food, your failure to find "a single documented incident of provable harm in over three decades of routine use of GMOs" is questionable. These studies are not hard to find. Studies by Séralini and Carmen are easy reference points. These studies have been subjected to fierce rebuke but, as Séralini points out in a published letter in the Food and Chemical Toxicology journal, unscientific double standards have been applied to research that finds adverse health effects of GM food. If you question this letter, I invite you to review the Zhang and Hammond studies called into question by the letter, and compare their review process to that applied to the Séralini study. Further evidence suggesting that currently marketed GM food may cause adverse health impacts can be viewed here, and a study on the impact of financial conflicts of interest on GM food health studies can be found here. 66.169.76.198 (talk) 10:02, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

I think Wikipedia should acknowledge plausible fears. If we write an article about some kind of space vehicle, it is not sufficient to say "it was built by the best engineers, and it has never crashed." No, we should explore what would happen if it did crash, what Mission Control does to keep its path mostly over uninhabited area, abort procedures for the astronauts, etc. This is actually true even if the vehicle was retired 20 years ago and we know it never crashed.

We do. It's in the controversies article. Lfstevens (talk) 02:54, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

@JzG: I don't think it is in any way "irrational" to not trust the judgment of the people who make the GMOs, or the regulators. It is possible that someone will get the bright idea to make sunflower oil more like fish oil and manipulate the crop to produce unnatural lipids that could turn out, after years of study, to be as bad as trans fats. It is possible that someone will manipulate a potato with the best of intentions and inadvertently increase the production of cardiac glycosides in the tubers. So far, as you say, nothing like this has happened, but the fear is not irrational. It would be a terrible disgrace if the sons of Athena were as careless with her power as Phaeton - the rational people of the world need to reason about things that have not yet happened yet. Wnt (talk) 11:45, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

OK, but it doesn't make sense to distrust the makers of GMOs more than we distrust those who make other things that we urgently depend on. Lfstevens (talk) 02:54, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

In this case the space vehicle was built by the best engineers and has been in daily use for over three decades with billions of "journeys" every year and it's never crashed. At some point the residual doubt is too small to worry about. I am struggling to think of a single recent new technology which comes out anywhere near as safe. There are philosophical arguments against GMOs, but the safety arguments are unsupported by any hard evidence, as far as I can see, and many of the arguments against us saying GMOs are safe to eat, require rather blatant WP:SYN. Seralini, in particular, is not a credible source. The way he went about publishing his paper, and republishing after retraction, raises serious doubts about his objectivity - in fact this looks like yet another example of trying to provide sciencey-looking support for a philosophical objection, by any means possible. Guy (Help!) 17:15, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

While I agree with your conclusion, we don't really care what individuals think. We're trying to tease out whether a consensus exists and what it says. (The article already takes a position on this.) Lfstevens (talk)

• Support: The reliable sources are quite unanimous on this issue, and we are editors of a free, online encyclopedia that is meant to reflect what the reliable sources say. I agree with the suggestion in previous survey replies that finding some of the latest secondary sources to back up this statement would be especially helpful to editors who are new to Wikipedia and new to identifying reliable sources. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 16:14, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose My problem is primarily with sourcing: 18 or so sources are presented to support a conclusion - "broad scientific consensus" - that is synthesis not summary unless taken from a solid source. That source may be present amongst the 18, but at least narrow it down to two or three according to Wikipedia conventions and common sense (one editor has voted for 2, 4 and 7). Jytdog's instruction that the sources are arranged in descending order of importance, and readers should start at the beginning and read until satisfied is bizarre, and sounds basically like Google. --Tsavage (talk) 17:18, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

the question is - is the content supported by the sources. that does not appear to answer the question, but to be dealing with something else. Jytdog (talk) 17:32, 31 May 2015 (UTC))

@Jytdog: That is what I answered, and to restate: No, in current form with 18 or so cited sources, the overall citation does not support the statement "broad scientific consensus," by failing to provide the reasonably accessible verifiability expected of a Wikipedia article. This idea of open-ended verification, with a potentially infinite number of sources to choose from (18 is well on the way to infinity IMO) is not functional. Read statement > read sourcing. If the sources require hours of reading, that does not work, I want to read exactly what the encyclopedia based the statement on, not just on some of it. If the sources all say the same thing, most are redundant and can be removed; if they do not, the conclusion is synthesis. If the mountain of available evidence adds up to what can be characterized as "broad consensus," it should be no trouble at all to find a couple of sources to say that, so just include those. Why should I support a malformed piece of content, where verifiability is totally compromised by 18 citations? I don't. --Tsavage (talk) 18:03, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

PS: I am not suggesting (or hoping) that we suppress or water down or otherwise reduce or conceal the reality of what review studies and medical and scientific organizations have said, individually and collectively, just that a handy sweeping statement like "broad scientific consensus" is powerful in its ability to obscure and inhibit critical thinking as catchphrases tend to be, and it should not be deployed without concrete sourcing. There are many other strong ways to represent the same information, such as with quotes, which are easily verifiable - we should source "broad consensus" properly, or seek alternative wording. --Tsavage (talk) 18:27, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog, you are asking people to iVote on what is a clear violation of our PAGs. In case you don't understand what this means, please read:

• Via WP:SYNTH Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source. If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources. This would be a synthesis of published material to imply a new conclusion, which is original research.[9] "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument in relation to the topic of the article.

Not only have you failed to provide a source supporting your statement, but the conclusion you've reached from your sources is in direct contradiction to other RS is being ignored. Those sources state that the science on GMO safety is inconclusive.

• Via Hilbeck et al. Environmental Sciences Europe (2015) The Cartagena Protocol and Codex share a precautionary approach to GM crops and foods, in that they agree that genetic engineering differs from conventional breeding and that safety assessments should be required before GM organisms are used in food or released into the environment. These agreements would never have been negotiated, and the implementation processes elaborating how such safety assessments should be conducted would not currently be happening, without widespread international recognition of the risks posed by GM crops and foods and the unresolved state of existing scientific understanding. petrarchan47คุก 18:50, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

we clearly disagree on how to interpret policy. and the source you choose is by an advocacy group printed in a predatory journal, per predatory publishers; not something to give much WEIGHT to. Jytdog (talk) 19:30, 31 May 2015 (UTC) (strike incorrect statement Jytdog (talk) 13:33, 1 June 2015 (UTC))

Environmental Sciences Europe is not listed on the source you cite. I think you must be confusing it with European Environmental Sciences and Ecology Journal, which is on that list, but is not the journal we are discussing. 66.169.76.198 (talk) 22:28, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

*Oppose The use of "broad scientific consensus" is not expressly stated in the sources. Since it cant be found it is not verifiable and likely OR by synthesis. Per WP:OR "The phrase "original research" (OR) is used on Wikipedia to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist.[1] This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not stated by the sources." Since it is not stated in the sources, it is OR. AlbinoFerret 18:02, 31 May 2015 (UTC) Source and location for the claim were provided, strike oppose. AlbinoFerret 01:48, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose We do not determine whether scientific consensus exists by examining all the papers written, but should rely on review articles. Domingo & Bordonaba 2011 says no consensus exists.[5] Domingo had written other review studies in 2000 and 2006 which made similar conclusions and one is cited in the UN's International Assessment of Agricultural Knowledge, Science and Technology for Development 2009, Global Report, p. 394, which concludes no consensus exists.[6] The UN report in turn is relied on in "Understanding GMO" on the David Suzuki Foundation website.[7] While these sources could all be wrong, we would need a source that says so. Domingo's study has 116 cites on Google scholar,[8] so it is not as if it is obscure. TFD (talk) 18:53, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

as mentioned below, Domingo is a "significant minority" in my view. scientific consensus doesn't mean unanimity. similar to global warming. Jytdog (talk) 19:28, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

While one expects to find differences of opinion in primary studies, review studies are supposed to be an objective reporting of the existing literature, and are the sources considered most reliable in MEDRS. If it indeed represents a minority view, it should not have been published or should be retracted. At least, it should have attracted condemnation in the literature. And we should have another review study that comes to another conclusion. TFD (talk) 19:51, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

The issue here TfD is that the issue is controversial. As I said, Domingo is a credible minority. You can't just pick a review and say "that one" - you have to read a lot of reliable secondary sources and understand the story. This is the essence of WP:NPOV and WP:WEIGHT. Domingo's views are not shared by the consensus - this is clear as day when you read the literature. Jytdog (talk) 21:27, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

The main source that backs up the current claim is the AAAS statement. The WHO citation remains very unpopular. I have reviewed the "Report 2" citation below and found that it does not claim there is a scientific consensus on the issue. The "10 Decades of EU Research" paper focuses on many GMO issues, and the citations for the health section were not a strong point. I have already stated my opposition to the AAAS statement. But, if we're to take the AAAS statement as unbiased, I think the "No Consensus" letter should also be taken as unbiased.

You don't have to claim bias to attempt to put a set of claims in perspective. Even in Domingo, a clear majority of studies find "no effect". Lfstevens (talk) 02:54, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Finally, there are credible sources that explicitly state that there is no scientific consensus, including the UN assessment cited in this discussion and the AND report. 66.169.76.198 (talk) 22:59, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

This point is so contentious that I'm beginning to think that it warrants an article of its own. "Controversies" covers many topics beyond the state of the scientific consensus. Lfstevens (talk) 02:54, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

• Support. Genetic modification is a particularly well-studied topic and the conclusions that it is both safe and not unhealthy are fairly uncontroverseial within the communities who study these topics. The sources cited demonstrate this. Alternative sources that are being offered to counter this point are either to less highly-regarded journals, discredited scientists, or in the context of politics rather than science. As WP:CBALL seems to be a reasonable thing upon which to hang our hat, it seems reasonable that we tell the reader simply that GM food is regarded scientifically as safe and not unhealthy. Calls for more transparent and independent testing of GM foods by, for example, UCS, can find their way into the article, but do not seem relevant for the question being posed in this RfC. jps (talk) 13:40, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose but mainly on an (I think important) issue of pedantry. In addition to souring problems I think that the wording sequence is leading and misrepresentatively positive. A better wording sequence, I think, would be, "A broad scientific consensus holds that GM food, as currently marketed, poses no greater risk than conventional food." I think that an important distinction needs to clearly presented between the present and any potential future. I think that there are two main issues here. 1. while science is, by "nature", arguably the purest of all things, scientists can be extraordinarily corrupt. Simple reference to the history of smoking confirms this. 2. The world population is increasing at a far greater rate than improvements in food production can possibly match. Highly populated countries like the UK and Japan import food from countries that people are leaving. These people typically then want to move to already overcrowded countries and the food markets are placed under ever greater pressures. Who is to say, in such a context, which compromises scientists may opt for in potentially well intentioned pursuit of increased yields? We must also use citations that back the contents being presented. GregKaye 14:04, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose per TFD. It is not Wikipedia's job to determine if a scientific consensus exists by examining the research and coming to a sage conclusion. Coretheapple (talk) 14:48, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

the content is directly supported by the sources. please see below. strange. Jytdog (talk) 14:58, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Not strange at all, nor especially complicated. We have to rely upon review articles that assess the literature. Coretheapple (talk) 16:05, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

• Support Traveling right now, so I'll have a more detailed response in a day or two when I have more than 5 minutes to spare. Kingofaces43 (talk) 19:41, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
• Comment. I was asked to comment, but I have no involvement in this issue and can't really give an opinion. What seems clear is that the sources could be presented better. No quote is given from the WHO, either in the paragraph or footnote, and its position doesn't really support the paragraph. Also, the quote from the FAO has left out the part where they express doubt. So those quotes should be added to the footnote (if the others are going to remain) and the paragraph tweaked accordingly. Part of the WHO's statement could be included in the paragraph as it's more nuanced and represents something other than the US/UK view. The WHO says:

  Different GM organisms include different genes inserted in different ways. This means that individual GM foods and their safety should be assessed on a case-by-case basis and that it is not possible to make general statements on the safety of all GM foods.

  "GM foods currently available on the international market have passed safety assessments and are not likely to present risks for human health. In addition, no effects on human health have been shown as a result of the consumption of such foods by the general population in the countries where they have been approved. Continuous application of safety assessments based on the Codex Alimentarius principles and, where appropriate, adequate post market monitoring, should form the basis for ensuring the safety of GM foods." [9]

  The FAO says (after the paragraph already quoted):

  "The lack of evidence of negative effects, however, does not mean that new transgenic foods are without risk (ICSU, GM Science Review Panel). Scientists acknowledge that not enough is known about the long-term effects of transgenic (and most traditional) foods. It will be difficult to detect long-term effects because of many confounding factors such as the underlying genetic variability in foods and problems in assessing the impacts of whole foods. ..." [10]

  Sarah (SV) ^(talk) 21:28, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

currently marketed food has been assessed on a case by case basis. that is the point of specifying "currently marketed" instead of mentioning some vague notion of all possible GM food, of which many very harmful kinds can be imagined. Jytdog (talk) 21:47, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

The point is that the current paragraph focuses on parts of sources that offer certainty and not on parts that offer nuance. And the footnote quotes other sources but not the WHO, and not the FAO paragraph that introduces doubt. Both issues should be fixed. Sarah (SV) ^(talk) 21:55, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Discussion

This article is not called 'Currently marketed GMO food', and the use of that or a similar qualifier in the lede reads as intentional obfuscation / misleading framing. Using similar construction makes possible absurd statements of fact such as 'All Agent Orange currently on the market poses no greater risk to human health than conventional food.'Dialectric (talk) 01:23, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

The UN's International Assessment of Agricultural Knowledge, Science and Technology for Development 2009 Global Report, which is used as a source in this article, says, "There are a limited number of properly designed and independently peer-reviewed studies on human health (Domingo, 2000; Pryme and Lembcke, 2003). Among the studies that have been published, some have provided evidence for potential undesirable effects (Pryme and Lembcke, 2003; Pusztai et al., 2003). Taken together, these observations create concern about the adequacy of testing methodologies for commercial GM plants fueling public skepticism and the possibility of lawsuits." (p. 394)[11] Can anyone explain why its conclusions differ from those presented above? TFD (talk) 02:25, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

You realize these are really too old under WP:MEDRS? If this is used as a reference it should perhaps be replaced. Principal sources from 2000 and 2003 are surely too old, and there must have been a wealth of studies since. Johnbod (talk) 03:44, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

If you are claiming that a report from 2009 is "too" old, then do you agree that all of the sources with dates of 2009 listed above to support the "scientific consensus" should be stricken? If you are using WP:MEDRS to measure the quality of the statement, do you agree that the AAAS and AMA statements should be removed as potential sources, because these are not studies but political positions taken by their respective Board of Directors? If not, do you agree that other reliable sources that are not peer reviewed studies (or reviews) that are from entities such as Food & Water Watch, Greenpeace, [http://www.ensser.org/increasing-public-information/no-scientific-consensus-on-gmo-safety/ ENSSR} and similar organizations who are not GMO cheerleaders should have some say on this or any other statement about GMO's? Or are only those who support and defend GMO's allowed a voice in the reporting of GMO's? David Tornheim (talk) 05:06, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

If 2009 is the cut-off, then there should not be sources presented before then. And you still need to explain why what the UN said six years ago is no longer valid. For example, a source should say, "until six years ago, the science on GMO was unsettled, but scientific consensus was reached in 2010." The UN source is so authoritative, that you need a source that specifically addresses why it is wrong. TFD (talk) 07:20, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Can't you see the problem with "There are a limited number of properly designed and independently peer-reviewed studies on human health (Domingo, 2000; Pryme and Lembcke, 2003)"? Concentrate on the meaning of the word "are"! Johnbod (talk) 21:24, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

TFD, responding to you above and to your follow up on my Talk page. Here is the picture as far as I understand it from the literature.

• there is the scientific consensus which is that currently marketed GM food is as safe as conventional food and sees no credible mechanism how currently marketed GM food even could be harmful. Standing on that spot, are most scientists, pretty much every regulatory agency, most farmers (who have adopted the technology), and the companies that make and sell the products. In this perspective, there is a keen awareness that it would be very possible to make GM food that could be harmful, but we are reasonably aware of the risks and the tests we have are good enough to weed out products that would be harmful (although better analytical tools are always wanted and welcome)
• Way over yonder you have some scientists, a huge and vocal online community, some advocacy organizations, and some members of the organics industry, that make wildly exaggerated claims about dangers of GM food, promote crazy mechanisms for toxicity (like "electron microscope organisms" somehow created by genetic modification process) and who almost never make a distinction between currently marketed GM food and any possible GM food product (e.g. who point up the dangers of allergens being introduced into the food supply - but that is a risk that is known and managed in the RW product development process and currently marketed GM foods do not appear to have any special allergenicity)
• You have a very few credible scientists - like Domingo - who take the view that while currently marketed GM food is ~probably~ OK, there are questions that need answering and we probably went too fast in disseminating the technology. There is a paragraph on his work in the GM controversies article (just search for "Domingo")
• In WP terminology, in my view, the first position is the mainstream that we present in WP's voice, the 2nd is FRINGE pseudoscience (sometimes just bad science), and the 3rd is, I think, a "significant minority voice". That is my own analysis. I made a proposal a while back on the Talk page of the GM Food controversies to discuss working this into the article but it didn't get much traction.
• With regard to the age of sources... GM food has been on the market now almost twenty years. There is no real debate in the mainstream scientific community about the technology or the relative safety of food, and there has been no good science done to raise any questions, since forever. The analogy aspartame, not, say questions about the PPAR inhibition (e.g thiazolidinediones) - see this pubmed search - plenty of recent reviews). So the relative safety of GM food is not a question that gets raised a lot in the scientific literature and the sources about the consensus are indeed older. Probably the most interesting scientific question out there, is "what would be the results of a credible, very long term feeding study?" There is a group called The Grace Project funded by the EU that has been running a project to plan and execute such a study. I hope they do run that. Jytdog (talk) 11:20, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

I think this RfC is, to a large extent, inappropriate because a good-faith attempt at resolving the dispute about the WHO citation has not yet occurred. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution, "Requests for Comment generally require that at least an effort be made to discuss the matter in question before making the request." Comments like "I suggest you drop the stick" do not pass for attempts at productive discussion.GrayDuck156 (talk) 15:08, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

These points might be slightly off-topic but I think might be useful for seeking a compromise. I have several concerns with the wording of the statement. First, the term "broad scientific consensus" seems unnecessarily ambiguous and subjective. The word "consensus" can mean anything from majority agreement to unanimity of opinion. Why not use a word that is not subject to multiple interpretations? The word "scientific" raises the question of whose opinion counts, which is a subjective determination. The word "broad" also has no precise, or even clear, meaning. Second, starting the sentence with the words "There is..." seems clumsy and obscures the subject of the sentence. GrayDuck156 (talk) 16:47, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

as i mentioned above: 1) please comment on content, not contributor. 2) the discussion above got much broader than your issue with the WHO source. hence the RfC. I think you will find that the community upholds the consensus statement about the relative safety of eating GM food, but we'll see. Jytdog (talk) 22:11, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog, thanks for replying. The most recent review cited in the UN report was Pryme and Lembcke, 2003. I suppose what they said was accurate - few studies had been made, but since then the there have been lots of studies. The EU report for example reviews studies from to the period 2001-2010.

One of the studies mentioned in the UN report was Domingo 2000. Domingo published a review study in 2011 in Environment International, which says there is a balance between reports claiming currently consumed GMO foods are safe and those saying they are not.[12] His report shows 119 cites in Google scholar.[13]

Also, per MEDRS guidelines, some of the sources for the wording should be removed. For example, the Washington Post article does not meet MEDRS.

TFD (talk) 16:57, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

there are a few non-MEDRS sources in there, I agree. They are high-quality secondary sources that report on the fact of the scientific consensus, not on the content of that consensus. Jytdog (talk) 19:51, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Here is a link to Domingo's 2011 review study. Why does it have less weight than a Washington Post article? TFD (talk) 22:47, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

see above. if you read the reliable sources, domingo has a minority position. the washington post source simply reports on the consensus, as i mentioned above. Jytdog (talk) 23:25, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

If (high quality) news media can evaluate and summarize scientific findings in this case, then presumably that should be so in most cases. Here, the single author of the Washington Post piece appears from her credits to be a food, science and health journalist with no scientific credentials, and the "consensus" she reports on is her own finding, using an "impartiality test" she has devised to determine which organizations seem to have taken sides and which seem neutral, by examining the ratio of risks to benefits each mentions - since explaining her method is central to her article and conclusion, I then have to determine if I agree with that method, and with the exclusions of presumably partisan organizations that she makes in determining consensus. It's all pretty confusing to me, and also illustrates the problem with too many cited sources: how is an editor, let alone a reader, expected to wade through all this - it would take hours? --Tsavage (talk) 01:55, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

• so the edits today by the 66... IP are typical of the POV-pushers who come by the GMO articles and bomb it. That is why we have the huge pile of sources. People feel so strongly about this. Jytdog (talk) 22:11, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

No, there is zero justification for SYNTH - you still have not shown one strong source which makes the claim you are trying to make in WPs voice. You have added a string of sources in violation of OR/SYNTH, and conveniently an IP shows up that you can use as an example of the great stress "anti-GMO" advocates out you through. There is no one on WP who feels as strongly as you about GMOs, given your contribs, so save it. This RfC came only days into a fruitful conversation and was uncalled for - what it did was obfuscate the conversation about the OR/SYNTH problem completely. petrarchan47คุก 09:09, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog, you are correct, I do have a point of view on this subject. But I have no doubt that you do too, and it is unfair to dismiss my criticism on the basis of my point of view. This article is about GM food, not "currently marketed GM food," and acknowledging that there is no scientific consensus on the safety of GM food is a highly relevant piece of information that needs to be in the introduction. Furthermore, the above referenced letter notes that studies concluding that GM foods are as safe as conventional foods are often performed by researchers connected to GM companies with an interest in marketing their product. Additionally, in reading their discussion under "There is no consensus on GM food safety," it is clear that their statement is regarding currently marketed GM food.

So although my initial complaint was about the failure of this Wikipedia article to note a lack of scientific consensus on the safety of all GM food (versus currently marketed GM food), I'd also now like to point out that I think the statement about consensus on currently marketed GM food is not only misleading, but incorrect.

66.169.76.198 (talk) 22:39, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

My perspective on this is not relevant. WP is all about what the reliable sources say. WP has reported for several years now that there is a scientific consensus on the relative safety of eating GM food. You also raise a question about scope. The scope of this article is actual GM food, not theoretical GM food - its purpose is to inform readers about what they might actually encounter. This issue has been discussed on this talk page as well. it is a conversation we can have again, but please do read the discussions in the archives. (There is however general discussion of the risks in the GM food controversies article) Jytdog (talk) 23:30, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

I do not think anyone would claim that all GMO food is safe, just the GMO food currently sold. Obviously there are toxic plants (mushrooms, poison berries, etc.) so possibly conventional food could be engineered to produce toxins. TFD (talk) 23:37, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

_______________

In regards to your comment that this article is about actual GM food, Jytdog, that is precisely why I pointed out that the criticisms leveled in the published discussion "No scientific consensus on GM food safety" are referring to currently marketed GM food. There is no scientific consensus on the safety of currently marketed GM food.

The letter attests to this, and lays out a clear argument against such claims. The main point of criticism that I anticipate is "Why did these scientists choose to sign a letter rather than simply conduct further food safety research to prove their point?" I agree that research would certainly be the preferable option to a letter. The problem, however, largely has to do with patent law on GM seeds. In order to conduct a study on potential health impacts of GM food, researchers need to control all conditions related to how the selected crop to be studied was grown. This means they need to get the original seed. However, patent law largely restricts researchers from accessing this seed without first receiving permission from the company that produces it. Problems arising from this include allegations that the company selectively denies permission based on anticipated results, as well as researchers being required to sign contracts stating that they will submit their results to the biotech company for approval before publishing the results.

The problem this creates for independent research, a problem that has also been noted by the United Nations Environmental Programme, was brought to the attention of the EPA in 2009, when a group of 29 scientists stated that "as a result of restricted access, no truly independent research can be legally conducted on many critical questions regarding the tech­nol­ogy." In response, the American Seed Trade Association agreed to offer blanket research agreements to all public universities. This agreement allows public university researchers to access GM seeds for studies on subjects such as agronomics, yield and pest management. It does not, however, open up research access for health-related studies. Instead, the biotech industry, which has a clear vested interest in the results of studies examining whether there are health risks associated with GMOs, retains the ability to limit who can study this issue, and how those studies are carried out. Regardless of whether our ongoing discussion concludes that there is scientific consensus or not, this narrative of restricted research is important and, in order for this article to avoid presenting a biased claim, this information should be added to the article.

Restricted research has had a clear impact on the total number of health-related studies on GM food. Jose L Domingo published several papers regarding this issue, all of which concluded that there is scant scientific literature on the human health risks of GM foods, let alone whether they are equivalent in risk to non-GM foods. His most recent study, published in 2011 in Environmental International, "A literature review on the safety assessment of genetically modified plants," found that although there continue to be scant studies on the human health risks of GM foods, there is a balance between those that do and do not find risk. You say that Domingo has a minority position. I can think of a certain letter signed by at least 300 scientists who would disagree... What's more, his position does not discount the quantitative content of his claim. The very bulk of scientific literature on the subject-- the scientific literature that this article is presumably referring to when it cites a "scientific consensus"-- does not in fact demonstrate a scientific consensus. This problem is, of course, in addition to the fact that the citations on WP consensus claim either do not actually support this claim (AMA, WHO) or are poor objective sources (the AAAS Board of Directors letter, which was refuted by a group of scientists for unrelated reasons). A cursory glance at the National Academies study also did not support this claim. Feel free to let me know which page to check.

The United Nations Environment Programme also disagrees that Domingo's review should be discredited as a "minority position." In their International Assessment of Agricultural Knowledge, Science and Technology for Development, published in 2009, they cite his review when noting that there are a limited number of properly designed and independently peer-reviewed studies on human health related to GM food. They also note that, of the limited numbers of studies published, some have found adverse effects. If you consider yourself to have more authority on the relevancy of Domingo's work than the UN, I invite you to make this claim directly. And interestingly enough, the WHO was a co-partner on this publication..... That citation referencing the WHO FAQ needs to go.

I also checked out your citation of the American Medical Association's "Report 2 of the Council on Science and Public Health" (the link you provide does not work, by the way) and this source also does not support the claim that there is a scientific consensus on that GM food on the market is just as conventional food. Instead, they merely note how the claim of substantial equivalence is made. The FDA reviews a safety assessment created by the producer of that GM crop, in which the producer assesses whether the GM crop "possesses similar levels and variations of critical nutrients and toxicants as its conventional counterpart." The AMA then goes on to say that there is an ongoing effort to improve abilities to detect toxicants and other unintended effects. There are important questions to ask here, including which toxicants are studied, and whether the adverse health effects reported in scientific literature, if true, are related to toxicants or some other factor. And as the ongoing issue with chemical safety in the U.S. demonstrates, there is a significant potential for bias when the producer of a product is the same group doing the safety review. It is irresponsible and, as with the WHO FAQ citation, blatantly false to hold up this source as evidence of scientific consensus.

The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics also states that there is no consensus on whether GM food has negative health effects, and cites the need for further study of this issue.

All of this further presses the point that it is inaccurate for this Wikipedia article to say that there is a consensus on the issue. As far as I can tell, I am citing peer-reviewed studies and major sources of public policy which explicitly say there is no consensus. This article, on the other hand, misinterprets sources that more often than not do not claim consensus, or in some cases are questionably subjective (such as the AAAS Board of Directors letter). 66.169.76.198 (talk) 04:23, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Your assessment of Report 2 of the Council on Science and Public Health is at odds with the contents of that document. I suggest you strike it and any other source misreprestations you've made here. — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 18:51, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

I'll address your point in a moment, but I'd like to first note that the bulk of my argument remains unaddressed. 1) There is limited research on the health effects of GM food due to patent law; this lack of study is directly noted by credible sources such as the UN Environment Programme and the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, so it doesn't make sense to consider these sources less credible than the current synthesis of citations used to claim that there is a consensus on the issue of currently marketed GM food, especially considering that many of these current sources do not make this direct claim 2) Given this lack of studies, it would be irresponsible to claim there is a consensus on the issue; since when does ignorance equate to scientific consensus?

Regarding the "Report 2 of the Council on Science and Public Health," you need to be more specific about what point you think I've misrepresented. At no point in the document does it say that there is a consensus on whether GM foods are as safe for consumption as convention foods. What they say is "FDA’s science-based labeling policies do not support special labeling without evidence of material differences between bioengineered foods and their traditional counterparts. The Council supports this science-based approach, and believes that thorough pre-market safety assessment and the FDA’s requirement that any material difference between bioengineered foods and their traditional counterparts be disclosed in labeling, are effective in ensuring the safety of bioengineered food. To better characterize the potential harms of bioengineered foods, the Council believes that permarket safety assessment should shift from a voluntary notification process to a mandatory requirement."

This is a paper arguing that in order for the FDA to require labeling of GM food, they need to establish that a difference exists between GM and non-GM foods. Evidence examining whether such a difference exists relies on premarket safety assessments, which the FDA does not currently require. So as I said, this paper is an examination of how the FDA evaluates GM food, and is not an assessment of whether there is scientific consensus on the safety of GM food compared to convention food. If anything, this paper serves to refute the existence of consensus, because it notes limits to current GM food assessments, such as the use of voluntary premarket self-testing. Considering that a biotech company can release their product on the market without any review for potential health impacts and, as per the patent issue I mentioned earlier, block potentially negative research on their product, the landscape of research on GM food has been very limited-- hence organizations such as the UN and AND noting the need for more research on the issue. 66.169.76.198 (talk) 22:19, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

______________

Jytdog, I do not see why I have to read through 20 sources - can you please id the most reliable source, saying where it says what, and we can compare it with the review study. Also, review studies are the most reliable sources per medrs. Ideally you should present a review study. TFD (talk) 01:12, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

you don't need to. no one "needs" to. They are roughly in order of importance. Sources 3 and 5 should probably be switched. but you one can stop reading sources as soon as you they are satisifed, and if you they reach the end and are still not satisfied, you they are likely a True Believer and there is nothing to be done for such a person anyway. At what point do you think the sourcing is sufficient? Jytdog (talk) 03:21, 31 May 2015 (UTC) (note, fixed formatting of all italics.. was a typo Jytdog (talk) 15:34, 31 May 2015 (UTC)) (replace "you" to make it clear that this wasn't meant to be personal. Left "you" in last question, b/c that was a real question to TfD. my apologies for the sloppy writing and for the offense given.Jytdog (talk) 15:38, 31 May 2015 (UTC))

The RfC is not about whether GMOs are safe, but whether sources support the statement that broad scientific consensus exists in RS. There is no reason to argue about whether WP:SYNTH is suddenly acceptable: it isn't.

A review from January 2015 concludes that there is no consensus on whether GMOs are safe OR dangerous - the consensus is that there is much to know, and that proper studies have not been conducted.

Hilbeck et al. Environmental Sciences Europe (2015) No scientific consensus on GMO safety

For decades, the safety of GMOs has been a hotly controversial topic that has been much debated around the world. Published results are contradictory, in part due to the range of different research methods employed, an inadequacy of available procedures, and differences in the analysis and interpretation of data. Such a lack of consensus on safety is also evidenced by the agreement of policymakers from over 160 countries - in the UN's Cartagena Biosafety Protocol and the Guidelines of the Codex Alimentarius - to authorize careful case-by-case assessment of each GMO by national authorities to determine whether the particular construct satisfies the national criteria for ‘safe’. Rigorous assessment of GMO safety has been hampered by the lack of funding independent of proprietary interests. Research for the public good has been further constrained by property rights issues, and by denial of access to research material for researchers unwilling to sign contractual agreements with the developers, which confer unacceptable control over publication to the proprietary interests. The joint statement developed and signed by over 300 independent researchers, and reproduced and published below, does not assert that GMOs are unsafe or safe. Rather, the statement concludes that the scarcity and contradictory nature of the scientific evidence published to date prevents conclusive claims of safety, or of lack of safety, of GMOs. Claims of consensus on the safety of GMOs are not supported by an objective analysis of the refereed literature

...the claimed consensus on GMO safety does not exist outside of the above depicted internal circle of stakeholders. The health, environment, and agriculture authorities of most nations recognize publicly that no blanket statement about the safety of all GMOs is possible and that they must be assessed on a case-by-case basis. Moreover, the claim that it does exist - which continues to be pushed in the above listed circles - is misleading and misrepresents or outright ignores the currently available scientific evidence and the broad diversity of scientific opinions among scientists on this issue. petrarchan47คุก 03:33, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog, to better participate in this discussion, you too should comment on the content, rather than the contributor. I would also like to point out that, in addition to the cited WHO page explicitly not supporting the claim that there is consensus, the statement from the AAAS Board of Directors is also problematic. This was not a review of the scientific literature or an official policy; this was a statement made by a small group of people. And, though not addressing whether or not there is consensus on the issue, a group of scientists issued a letter in disagreement with the AAAS Board, which further calls in to question the validity of using the AAAS Board of Directors statement as a source for the claim that there is consensus. 66.169.76.198 (talk) 05:13, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog, that is really offensive. I am not a "true believer." I think however we should follow reliable sources policy and MEDRS guidelines, which means we should report what review studies say rather than newspaper articles. Can you please identify the source that I am supposed to accept instead of the review study and mention a page no. so I do not have to read through dozens of pages.

In the aspartame articles, you and I always agree on the types of sources that should be used - why is this article different?

BTW I have no opinion on whether GMO foods are safe or what the scientific consensus is. But I would like to discuss the sources.

TFD (talk) 06:30, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

sorry about that TfD, the "you" was meant to be "a reader", not personal to you. fixed that. Jytdog (talk) 15:38, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

TFD, I provided a more extensive breakdown of the problems with the current citations used by Jytdog above, as well as references to sources and reviews which conclude that there is no scientific consensus on this issue. 66.169.76.198 (talk) 07:24, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Please stop personalizing this. The content under discussion was authored by many people, not just me. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 14:00, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

My apologies. It was, at times, uncalled for. Please address my criticisms. Thanks. 66.169.76.198 (talk) 14:53, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the demo, Jytdog, that seems like a fair revision. That was not the criticism I was referring to, however. Perhaps I placed it in a confusing way for this discussion. It ends directly above the comment from TFD, where you just edited your response. 66.169.76.198 (talk) 15:51, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Some notes about the "No scientific consensus on GMO safety" paper: Just the fact that there scientists claiming there is no consensus, doesn't mean there isn't a consensus. There are a number of scientists that oppose the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming, but this doesn't mean that there isn't a broad consensus that humans are contributing to climate change. The paper seems to be more an opinion piece by a group of scientists (including notable anti-gm activists like Vandana Shiva and Michael Hansen) than anything resembling a review. (See a discussion about the paper here for more info). The paper is also published in the same journal that republished the famous and widely criticised Séralini study (which the paper also cites in it's defence), that was retracted for not living up to scientific standards (see Séralini affair). This would at the very least suggest that there is some bias involved here. The organisation also seems to be running a campaign where anyone with a relevant academic degree can sign up to their "no scientific consensus" list. Øln (talk) 20:29, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

It is not an accurate characterization to compare the lack of consensus on climate change to the lack of consensus on GM food. Scientists refuting consensus on climate change were extremely well-funded. Scientists desiring to study potential health impacts of GM food, however, are not even able to access the basic materials needed to conduct their study. I mentioned this in a comment above, as a way to explain why these scientists published a letter rather than a series of studies. This restriction on research is important and needs to be taken into account when considering whether there is a consensus. 66.169.76.198 (talk) 23:40, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Even if you take that paper out of the equation. The broad scientific consensus claim appears to be based on the The statement of the AAAS Board. But its problematic in a way that is fundamentally opposed to one of the 5 pillars. The AAAS Board statement only commented on a review that covered a large number of studies. But never said that there was broad consensus, or anything like that. The review may imply that, and so the AAAS Board statement may imply it. But it is not specifically stated. Since it is not stated it appears to be an analysis of what the statement says or a synthesis of it and the remaining sources. Thats OR, and as one of the 5 pillars OR is non negotiable. The best this RFC can do is come up with a local consensus that cant stand opposing one of the pillars. AlbinoFerret 20:36, 31 May 2015 (UTC) Source and location was provided, strike comment. AlbinoFerret 01:50, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Øln, certainly showing that a number of scientists say there is no consensus does not mean there is no consensus. And note that in climate change the scientists who say there is no consensus are writing outside academic publications and no academically published articles question global warming. But how do we know there is a consensus? Because review studies tell us that. The authors of these studies have examined all the literature and come to that conclusion. But in this case, that has not been presented, rather a review study says that no consensus exists. That does not mean necessarily that the review study is accurate, but we need equal or better sources to challenge it. TFD (talk) 21:15, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

The authors of what studies? I have seen no claim beyond the AAAS letter that there is a consensus. The only review to have been conducted on all the literature was done by Domingo. The claim that he's a minor source is perplexing. Wouldn't the purpose of rejecting a minor source be because their results are not possible to corroborate? Yet you can go to the same two portals that Domingo used, and check on his results for yourself. We might not feel like doing that, but it does make his results more easily verifiable. Furthermore, the UN cites him in their report, among others, in claiming that there is limited research. And the UN, as well as the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, note that there is no consensus on the issue.

There are major sources claiming that there is no consensus. Meanwhile, the citations for the claim that there is a consensus often do not actually say this. If there is a reputable literature review claiming that there is a consensus, I'm eager to see it, particularly if it's anywhere near as robust as the literature review carried out by Domingo. 66.169.76.198 (talk) 23:13, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

You misread me, I was saying there are studies showing that there is consensus on climate change. Another editor had tried to draw a connection between climate change science and GMO safety. TFD (talk) 14:41, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

quotes from all sources

just want to note here for ease of reference: Jytdog (talk) 00:14, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

1. AAS source says "Moreover, the AAAS Board said, the World Health Organization, the American Medical Association, the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, the British Royal Society, and “every other respected organization that has examined the evidence has come to the same conclusion: consuming foods containing ingredients derived from GM crops is no riskier than consuming the same foods containing ingredients from crop plants modified by conventional plant improvement techniques.”" that is just about every major scientific or medical organization on the planet. That is pretty much the definition of "broad scientific consensus>"
2. 2 decade of research, is already quoted in the ref, but again "=The main conclusion to be drawn from the efforts of more than 130 research projects, covering a period of more than 25 years of research, and involving more than 500 independent research groups, is that biotechnology, and in particular GMOs, are not per se more risky than e.g. conventional plant breeding technologies." (p. 16)"
3. 3 pamela ronald review article: "There is broad scientific consensus that genetically engineered crops currently on the market are safe to eat." (bolded for those calling WP:SYN above)
4. 4 AMA source, already quoted in the ref. This is provided to give a specific example of the organizations named by the AAAS. "Bioengineered foods have been consumed for close to 20 years, and during that time, no overt consequences on human health have been reported and/or substantiated in the peer-reviewed literature."" Further says "Despite strong consumer interest in mandatory labeling of bioengineered foods, the FDA’s science-based labeling policies do not support special labeling without evidence of material differences between bioengineered foods and their traditional counterparts. The Council supports this science-based approach, and believes that thorough pre-market safety assessment and the FDA’s requirement that any material difference between bioengineered foods and their traditional counterparts be disclosed in labeling, are effective in ensuring the safety of bioengineered food. "
5. Sci Am: longer quote: "Williams (David Williams, a cellular biologist who specializes in vision) concedes that he is among a tiny minority of biologists raising sharp questions about the safety of GM crops'....Whether Williams is right or wrong, one thing is undeniable: despite overwhelming evidence that GM crops are safe to eat, the debate over their use continues to rage..."
6. WHO: This source is one of those mentioned in AAAS source, provided to give another specific example. "While theoretical discussions have covered a broad range of aspects, the three main issues debated are the potentials to provoke allergic reaction (allergenicity), gene transfer and outcrossing.....GM foods currently available on the international market have passed safety assessments and are not likely to present risks for human health. In addition, no effects on human health have been shown as a result of the consumption of such foods by the general population in the countries where they have been approved. ... WHO will keep paying due attention to the safety of GM foods from the view of public health protection, in close collaboration with FAO and other international bodies." I note, that the WHO has raised no alarms over currently marketed food. This is a
7. FAO already quoted above. "Currently available transgenic crops and foods derived from them have been judged safe to eat and the methods used to test their safety have been deemed appropriate. These conclusions represent the consensus of the scientific evidence surveyed by the ICSU (2003) and they are consistent with the views of the World Health Organization (WHO, 2002). These foods have been assessed for increased risks to human health by several national regulatory authorities (inter alia, Argentina, Brazil, Canada, China, the United Kingdom and the United States) using their national food safety procedures (ICSU). To date no verifiable untoward toxic or nutritionally deleterious effects resulting from the consumption of foods derived from genetically modified crops have been discovered anywhere in the world (GM Science Review Panel). Many millions of people have consumed foods derived from GM plants - mainly maize, soybean and oilseed rape - without any observed adverse effects (ICSU)."

This citation is already being extensively discussed elsewhere on the Talk page, so I'm assuming you have this here for reference rather than as a point of discussion. 66.169.76.198 (talk) 00:44, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

• 8a - Nature editorial. "GM food has an uncanny ability to spook consumers. It does not matter that many of us have been consuming GM cornflakes, sweet corn, starches and sugars in processed food for over a decade. It does not matter that no adverse health effects have been recorded from eating them. Nor does it matter that august agencies, such as the World Health Organization, the US National Academy of Sciences, the European Commission or the American Medical Association, have come out with ringing endorsements of their safety."

Where are these ringing endorsements? Can you provide the first-hand sources?66.169.76.198 (talk) 00:44, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

• 8b German academies "In principle, no absolute guarantee can ever be offered for the safety of any food, whether produced conventionally or from GM plants. It is common knowledge that conventionally produced food can be the cause of allergies for predisposed persons; nuts (and particularly peanuts), strawberries, shellfish and wheat are all familiar examples. Foods of plant origin often contain toxic or carcinogenic substances; nature has provided plants with a large arsenal of defensive substances as protection against damage from feeding insects or from bacterial and fungal infections. Moreover, plant products may be contaminated by fungal toxins, a number of which are strongly carcinogenic; Fusaria toxins, which often pollute wheat and maize (even when grown “organically”), are examples. It has been estimated that in the industrial countries most of carcinogenic substances ingested derive from “natural” plant food. Since absolute safety is never possible, the basis for approving GM food products is the failure – after extensive prescribed testing – to find any adverse indicators. Such tests show that these foods are at least as safe and nutritious as the corresponding products from conventionally produced crops. (bolding from original)
• 8c english Summary of French academies report: "The risks associated with transgenic plants (herbicide tolerance, resistance to predators and diseases, sterility, antibiotic resistance, allergenic properties) are currently under analysis. This analysis shows that all criticisms against GMOs can be set aside based for the most part on strictly scientific criteria."
• 8d Italian academies - note that they call this a "consensus" document and that they note that they consulted with:
  • Food and Agriculture Organization - FAO
  • World Health Organization - WHO
  • The Royal Society of London
  • U.S. National Academy of Sciences
  • The Royal Society of Canada
  • Accademia Nazionale delle Scienze e Accademia Nazionale dei Lincei
  • Brazilian Academy of Sciences
  • Chinese Academy of Sciences
  • Indian National Science Academy
  • Mexican Academy of Sciences
  • Third World Academy of Sciences
  • Australian Academy of Science
  • Council for Agricultural Science and Technology
  • Consiglio Scientifico per le Biotecnologie in Agricoltura – Regione Lombardia

and they say: (care of google translate" " GMOs on the market today, having successfully passed all the tests and procedures necessary authorization, must, on the basis of current knowledge, it is safe to use human and animal food. • It should therefore abandoned the Manichaean attitude "pro" or "anti" GMO intended in together in favor of a rational consensus because informed about the process and products arising. These conclusions are in line with what has already been expressed by the most prestigious organizations national and international scientific. The European Commissioner for Research, Philippe Busquin, EU at the end of the study lasted 15 years (1985-2000), and the involved 400 public research centers for a total of 70 million euro, has come to same conclusions stating that "research shows that plants genetically modified and the products developed and marketed up to now, according to the usual procedures risk assessment showed no risk to human health or the environment. Indeed, the use of a more precise technology and the most accurate assessments during the Regulatory probably make these plants and products even safer for the conventional " note that this even a stronger statement than the one we use

• 8e washington post: "The organizations I found that pass, though, form a compelling coalition. The National Academies, the American Medical Association, the World Health Organization, the Royal Society and the European Commission are all on the same side. Although it’s impossible to prove anything absolutely safe, and all of those groups warn that vigilance on GMOs and health is vital, they all agree that there’s no evidence that it’s dangerous to eat genetically modified foods. Even the Center for Science in the Public Interest is on board, and it has never been accused of being sanguine about food risks. I’m not the first journalist to notice the consensus. Science-oriented publications including Nature and Scientific American have taken a hard look at safety and also concluded there’s no evidence that GMOs are bad for us. Nathanael Johnson, who’s doing yeoman’s fact-finding work at Grist.org, concurs."
• 8f: UC Davis ag extension: "While genetic engineering of foods continues to generate concern and controversy for some consumers, evidence to date has not indicated that any foods developed for human consumption using genetic engineering techniques pose risks greater than foods produced using traditional methods. "
• 8g Trends in Biotechnology (this is about golden rice) "As the journal Nature editorialized in 1992, a broad scientific consensus holds that ‘the same physical and biological laws govern the response of organisms modified by modern molecular and cellular methods and those produced by classical methods. ... [Therefore] no conceptual distinction exists between genetic modification of plants and microorganisms by classical methods or by molecular techniques that modify DNA and transfer genes.... In contrast to plants modified with recombinant DNA technology, those constructed with less precise techniques, such as hybridization or mutagenesis, generally are subject to no government scrutiny or requirements (or opposition from activists) at all.... However, these constructions are less precisely crafted, less well characterized and less predictable than recombinant DNA constructions. Thus, we have a situation in which for more than two decades the degree of regulatory scrutiny (and therefore, the time and expense required for the development of new varieties) has been inversely proportional to the perceived degree of risk. This is absurd. Regulators and activists are not the only villains of the piece. The media – and even scientific journals (see Ref. [4]) – have been undiscriminating and overly tolerant of the misrepresentations and distortions of anti-biotechnology activists..."
• 8h Li, Quan; McCluskey, Jill; Wahl, Thomas (2004). "Effects of information on consumers' willingness to pay for GM-corn-fed beef". Journal of Agricultural and Food Industrial Organization 2 (2): 1–16. doi:10.2202/1542-0485.1058
• 8i International Council for Science "Currently available genetically modified foods are safe to eat. Food safety assessments by national regulatory agencies in several countries have deemed currently available GM foods to be as safe to eat as their conventional counterparts and suitable for human consumption. This view is shared by several intergovernmental agencies, including the FAO/WHO Codex Alimentarius Commission on food safety, which has 162 member countries, the European Commission (EC), and the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD). Further, there is no evidence of any ill effects from the consumption of foods containing genetically modified ingredients. Since GM crops were first cultivated commercially in 1995, many millions of meals have been made with GM ingredients and consumed by people in several countries, with no demonstrated adverse effects."
• 9 national academies - also emphasizing all the testing that is done: "In contrast to adverse health effects that have been associated with some traditional food production methods, similar serious health effects have not been identified as a result of genetic engineering techniques used in food production. This may be because developers of bioengineered organisms perform extensive compositional analyses to determine that each phenotype is desirable and to ensure that unintended changes have not occurred in key components of food."
• 10 Key, in Journal of Royal Society of Med: "GM crops are tightly regulated by several government bodies. The European Food Safety Authority and each individual member state have detailed the requirements for a full risk assessment of GM plants and derived food and feed.34 In the USA, the Food and Drug Agency, the Environmental Protection Agency and the US Department of Agriculture, Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service are all involved in the regulatory process for GM crop approval.35 Consequently, GM plants undergo extensive safety testing prior to commercialization (for an example see http://www.efsa.europa.eu/EFSA/KeyTopics/efsa_locale-1178620753812_GMO.htm). Foods derived from GM crops have been consumed by hundreds of millions of people across the world for more than 15 years, with no reported ill effects (or legal cases related to human health), despite many of the consumers coming from that most litigious of countries, the USA. There is little documented evidence that GM crops are potentially toxic."

• there you go. Jytdog (talk) 00:44, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Here are the dates of the above references.

• 1. AAAS Source Oct 2012.
• 2. decade of research 2010
• 3. pamela ronald review article May 2011
• 4. AMA 2012
• 5. Sci Am Aug 2013
• 6 WHO May 2014
• 7. FAO 2004
• 8a Nature editorial September 2013
• 8b German academies 2006 [14]
• 8c english Summary of French academies report Dead link
• 8d Italian academies 2004
• 8e washington post OCT 2013
• 8f UC Davis ag extension 2006
• 8g Trends in Biotechnology 2009
• 8h Li, Quan; McCluskey, Jill; Wahl, Thomas 2004
• 8i International Council for Science 2003
• 9 national academies 2004 [15]
• 10 Key, in Journal of Royal Society of Med 2008 AlbinoFerret 17:21, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

thanks for that AlbinoFerret but a couple fixes. #4 is AMA and 8g is Trends in Biotechnology. thanks. Jytdog (talk) 21:22, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Fixed, copy paste got me again. AlbinoFerret 21:45, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

comments

• on source 4. The Council is saying that a thorough premarket safety assessments ensure safety, they are not saying that such assessments exist-- they don't. The premarket safety assessments are voluntary.

"FDA’s science-based labeling policies do not support special labeling without evidence of material differences between bioengineered foods and their traditional counterparts. The Council supports this science-based approach, and believes that thorough pre-market safety assessment and the FDA’s requirement that any material difference between bioengineered foods and their traditional counterparts be disclosed in labeling, are effective in ensuring the safety of bioengineered food. To better characterize the potential harms of bioengineered foods, the Council believes that permarket safety assessment should shift from a voluntary notification process to a mandatory requirement."66.169.76.198 (talk) 00:27, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

• on source 5. First point, biologists are not the only ones who study GM food. Second point, this is his subjective opinion-- and he can't be sure, as he goes on to note, because "scientists who see problems with GM food... keep quiet." Last, he is pointing to the same issue I've called out: it is difficult for scientists to study potential health impacts of GM food.66.169.76.198 (talk) 00:37, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

about your comment on source 4. Please name on GM food that has reached the market in the US without those assessments being done. Yes, it is under the law "voluntary" but no one has ever brought a GM food to market without getting clearance. This is widely known and commented on. Really - name one. Jytdog (talk) 00:46, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm apt enough at finding things on online, but I have no idea how one would begin to locate a list of approved GM foods and their premarket safety assessments without directly calling the FDA. I don't imagine that information is publicly available online; if you know it is, it'd be good to share. Yet even if the biotech industry did in fact submit voluntary assessments in every case, common sense can tell you how little this means for the safety of the food in question. If that common sense doesn't speak to you, however, but you're still curious, I'd recommend looking at Clean Water Act compliance, which is also largely conducted through self-assessment, and is fraught with instances of industry abuse, such as omitting, manipulating or, in some cases, blatantly falsifying their submitted data. If this seems unrelated to the discussion to you, let me explain: once it is known that self-assessment by an industry is the primary source of market safety evaluation, you should immediately be suspicious, and I do not you are applying appropriate skepticism in this case. There is a history of violation when self-assessment is used. I consider the CWA a good example for a quick search, only because the longer history of the CWA will make information easier for you locate than trying to find it for GM foods. Just if you're curious about that issue; I don't feel like doing more research on this matter.

A quick glace at the Pamela Ronald review reveals it is from a journal with an equivalent impact rating to that of the Domingo study, which makes it seem like there is a double standard applied regarding which sources are deemed acceptable in this discussion. A cursory glance at her study shows that one of her first citations for the safety of GM food didn't even have to do with food-- she cited an environmental journal looking at environmental issues. This is a strategy noted in the "No Consensus" letter-- many studies claiming that there is a consensus on the health issue are citing sources that do not even evaluate the health issue. All too often, the strategy of these "consensus" claimants is to create a wall of citations that does not actually support their claim.. As for the rest, I'm too tired to bother evaluating these sources. The idea that the burden of proof should fall so heavily on the opposers in this discussion to review all the pro-consensus sources, while the pro-consensus folks review few if any of the sources I have submitted, is distasteful. 66.169.76.198 (talk) 06:30, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

How does a Washington Post article meet MEDRS? TFD (talk) 05:40, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

• Sources 3 (Pamela Ronald) and 8g (Henry I Miller) and 8e (Washington Post): I noticed that only two sources (Ronald and Miller) use the exact term, "broad scientific consensus," so I checked them out and they are both highly visible, public proponents of biotechnology in agriculture, including genetic engineering. This would seem to make them less than independent sources. For that same reason, neither would pass the "impartiality test" that is the basis for the Washington Post findings: "Does the person or organization you trust admit to both risks and benefits? If not, chances are good that your source has a dog — financial or ideological — in the fight." --Tsavage (talk) 12:07, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
• Since the dates of origin of these sources / studies / opinions / whatever / are being called into question in some of the concerns, it would be helpful to have that listed amongst your sources list. Thanks. Fylbecatulous talk 12:45, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

I just looked up all the dates and added them under the quotes. Since there are a good amount of sources in the last five years I think it would be a good idea to prune off the older stuff per WP:MEDDATE. AlbinoFerret 17:28, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

• I think most of the sources above take care to observe the distinction between the known and possible risks, and we should be sure to do the same. One of the little paradoxes of life is that processes that are essentially safe can be made unsafe when you start believing they can't be unsafe. GM crops that are designed sanely, undergo regulatory scrutiny, and are approved for the market in industrialized countries are quite safe, to the point where no accident has yet been reported. This does not mean that a GM free-for-all won't lead to some incident. There are things that worry me like canola designed to produce 'fish oil' components. Lipid biochemistry is very complex, touching on major issues like NSAIDs and cannabinoids and heart disease, and regulates many important processes such as inflammation. We already have the terrible example of trans fats to know that unnatural lipids can cause Holocaust-like levels of mortality and still be very hard to document or regulate. When GM manufacturers tamper with plant lipid mixtures with the intent of feeding them to fish (i.e. lowered regulatory scrutiny) to change their human nutritional values, there are real risks. The responsible approach, whether for a regulator or an encyclopedia, is to recognize these risks and then, so long as we can, say that thankfully so far with good management they have been averted. Wnt (talk) 15:42, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
• on source 3 Pamela Ronald's article is not a review article on GMO safety but on "Plant Genetics, Sustainable Agriculture and Global Food Security." She provides two sources for her statement on safety: the U.S. (2002) and EU (2004/2008/2010) governments. She is a geneticist. Domingo otoh is a toxicologist who reviewed studies on GMO safety. MEDRS says, "Ideal sources for biomedical content includes literature reviews or systematic reviews...written by experts in the relevant field." TFD (talk) 18:47, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

2011 peer-reviewed study: No Consensus

No consensus on the safety of GM food: 2011 peer-reviewed study of research from peer-reviewed journals finds that roughly half of the animal feeding studies conducted in recent years showed there is cause for concern. Researchers noted,

"Diverse groups including consumers and environmental Non Governmental Organizations (NGO) have suggested that all GM foods/plants should be subjected to long-term animal feeding studies before approval for human consumption. In 2000 and 2006, we reviewed the information published in international scientific journals, noting that the number of references concerning human and animal toxicological/health risks studies on GM foods/plants was very limited. The main goal of the present review was to assess the current state-of-the-art regarding the potential adverse effects/safety assessment of GM plants for human consumption. The number of citations found in databases (PubMed and Scopus) has dramatically increased since 2006. However, new information on products such as potatoes, cucumber, peas or tomatoes, among others was not available. Corn/maize, rice, and soybeans were included in the present review. An equilibrium in the number research groups suggesting, on the basis of their studies, that a number of varieties of GM products (mainly maize and soybeans) are as safe and nutritious as the respective conventional non-GM plant, and those raising still serious concerns, was currently observed. Nevertheless, it should be noted that most of these studies have been conducted by biotechnology companies responsible of commercializing these GM plants." petrarchan47คุก 05:38, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

I see this is mentioned above. (Redacted). petrarchan47คุก 05:57, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

As soon as the scientific bodies of national and international standing that note the consensus, adopt a changed view based on this one paper, then we will change our article. Not until then, of course. Guy (Help!)

I wouldn't expect any changes based on this one review, not in our article nor by major scientific bodies - just as Jytdog uses 18 references to make a point, so too can we show the lack of consensus by acknowledging conclusions from multiple reviews. petrarchan47คุก 21:39, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Removal of sources older than 5 years

I went through the sources and found quite a few that were older than 5 years. Per WP:MEDDATE we should be using sources that are done within the last 5 years. There appears to be plenty of newer sources in the list I added to the bottom of the the quotes section that the older ones should be removed. AlbinoFerret 21:20, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Notices

Notices posted in the following places:

• Talk:Genetically_modified_food_controversies#RfC_on_consensus_statement_of_relative_safety_of_currently_marketed_GM_food
• Talk:Genetically_modified_crops#RfC_on_consensus_statement_of_relative_safety_of_currently_marketed_GM_food
• Talk:Genetic_engineering#RfC_on_consensus_statement_of_relative_safety_of_currently_marketed_GM_food
• Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Medicine#RfC_on_consensus_statement_of_relative_safety_of_currently_marketed_GM_food
• Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Food_and_drink#RfC_on_consensus_statement_of_relative_safety_of_currently_marketed_GM_food
• User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#RfC_on_consensus_statement_of_relative_safety_of_currently_marketed_GM_food
• WP:No_original_research/Noticeboard#RfC_on_consensus_statement_of_relative_safety_of_currently_marketed_GM_food since issues of WP:SYN were raised
• WP:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#RfC_on_consensus_statement_of_relative_safety_of_currently_marketed_GM_food