User talk:Rarelibra: Difference between revisions

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Edits on Gnaviyani Atoll

Hello, Regarding your redirection of Gnaviyani Atoll to Nyaviyani Atoll. The correct title is Gnaviyani Atoll and hence this should be the real page and Nyaviyani Atoll, the alternate title, should be the redirection page. Gnaviyani is used in Ministry of Atolls webiste [1]. Thanks --Oblivious 10:59, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Re: your response on my talk page

Ministry of Atolls website is actually using the new ones as far as i know and besides when it comes to they way maldivians' named it its atoll it can be a very cryptic thing and often doesnt make any sense. and for "Naviyani"-"Gnaviyani" conflict, i think we should stick with the way its followed by the ministry. dont you think? --Oblivious 06:40, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks

... for fixing the typo in my user page --Oblivious 19:12, 3 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bahamas map

Nice to have another mapmaker on board :) I've been trying to find a good map of the Bahamas to work from, looks like you beat me to it. :) --Golbez 15:51, 5 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Vojvodina

Well, we did started bad, but it will be better I hoppe. We do have same interest for cartography, so we maybe can cooperate about some maps on Wikipedia. You can also add your name here if you want:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedians/Cartographers

As for sending email via Wikipedia, I do not know how to do this, can you explain to me how to send it? One more thing, seems that the problem with Vojvodina article is that the history section lack the explanation for this changes of the autonomy level from 1945 to the present day. I will improve this history section when I find time to do it. Since you are interested in this issue, then here is the main difference in the autonomy levels during the time: In 1945 Vojvodina and Kosovo were formed as a territorial autonomies within Serbia. In 1974, the autonomy level of both provinces was increased in the manner that they still were autonomous provinces of Serbia, but they also were represented in the federal institutions independently from Serbia (In another words, the provinces had almost same level of power as the Serbia itself). In 1989, this level of autonomy was abolished, so the provinces were no longer represented in the federal institutions, but were only autonomous provinces within Serbia (as they were before 1974 too), with a small level of autonomy. The Kosovo Albanians did not agreed to have only this small autonomy, so they boycotted the institutions and started a rebellion in 1998, which led to NATO bombing in 1999. The UN administration increased the level of the autonomy of Kosovo in 1999, while the level of autonomy of Vojvodina was also increased by the omnibus law in 2002. Currently, both provinces have larger autonomy than in 1989, but smaller than in 1974. In this year the final status of Kosovo will be determined, and it will be either independence either Kosovo will become a third republic within Serbia-Montenegro. As for Vojvodina, it also will gain more autonomy by the new constitution of Serbia. Serbia possibly will also have 4 new provinces. See this: Regions of Serbia. The ethnic Hungarian politicians from the northern part of Vojvodina also want a separate autonomous region for themselves (Hungarian Regional Autonomy), as well as the ethic Bosniak politicians from Sandžak, but it is not likely that these two regions will be formed, since the new provinces of Serbia will be formed on economic, not on the ethnic principle. PANONIAN (talk) 22:10, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for map of Jersey parishes

I am hastily leaving you a message simply to thank you for contributing a map of Jersey parishes — it is good work, I have to say. Lacking the appropriate software, I gave up attempting one long ago.

Thank you once again,

Grumpy Troll ^(talk) 13:09, 21 January 2006 (UTC).[reply]

slovenia regions map

Hello, fellow Libra! I believe it would be better to number the regions instead of writing their names, so that it would be legible from the main article, instead of enlarging the picture to be able to see the names. I'd do it myself, but I don't have the necessary knowledge of graphic design (in short, I suck at it), so i'm kindly asking you to do it!

Thanks! edolen1 15:26, 22 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, yes, I would prefer you to put in the reference numbers, but purely because of aesthetics. The huge map really looks out of place. Thanks for your contributions, though! edolen1 16:09, 23 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, I never meant to hurt your feelings. It's just that I wanted to edit your map and number the regions instead of naming them, as the names are quite long and I thought it was more practical to use numbers. But unfortunately like I mentioned before, my skills are all but limited when it comes to image editing. That's why, when I found the map from the Statistical Office, I added it because it fit my criteria, so to speak. I did check the copyright, and I did add the note on the source as the copyright notice demanded. I did however mislabel it as having an unknown license but I've fixed it since then. I do hope you understand that this wasn't an act against you but something which I thought might better represent the regions and aid the reader better. Again, my sincerest apologies as I did not mean to hurt your feelings. edolen1 16:48, 9 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks a lot! :) edolen1 17:15, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Jersey etc

Hello. I have no intention of engaging in an edit war, but why do you insist on inflating maps to such a size that they squeeze the lists and tables? It's really not necessary - your maps are nice enough map that everyone can admire them even at a reasonable size. Man vyi 13:48, 23 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Maps of Sogn og Fjordane et al

Hello there. I noticed that you have uploaded a county of showing municipalities of Sogn og Fjordane county. Would you be interested in designing similar maps for the traditional districts (landsdeler) as well? They are more or less clusters of modern municipalities that group themselves together both for reasons practical administration and a historical sense of common regional identity based on dialect and folklore. =J //Big Adamsky 15:12, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

PS: Also, I would like to suggest that you follow cartographic conventions by not placing names over borders or coastlines. If the area is too small for the word to fit, then the best option (in my opinion) is to use numbers and a footnote/legend or else to just abbreviate the toponym in question. Thanks again. //Big Adamsky 15:18, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Rogaland

Ølen merged with Vindafjord on January 1, 2006, decided by a referendum of February 17, 2003. -- Egil 18:01, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the update! Rarelibra

Also, Ølen opted to become part of Rogaland county in stead of Hordaland a few years prior to the merger. Municipal mergers have also ocurred in Nordland county. //Big Adamsky 09:50, 29 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent addition to Vest-Agder

Thanks for adding the map to Vest-Agder. Really helps understand the geography! Williamborg 01:38, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And I see Big Adamsky asked if you'd consider designing maps for the traditional districts (landsdeler). He's not alone in thinking this would be a good contribution, if you have the time. Williamborg 01:41, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

But I just tried to use your map in Aust-Agder and found several errors. Compare your version with that in Veiatlas Norge or at German map of Aust-Agder & you will see the differences. Hope you can update. Thanks Williamborg 04:14, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Map of Montenegro

Here is the map you asked for (I just draw it):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Montenegro_municipalities.png

PANONIAN (talk) 22:39, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

About map

Hi, i'm id-wiki user. I know very little about ArcView. How to make a good and artistic map, is there any template for making map in wiki? Which software should I use? (I'm Windows XP user). FYI, these map I've made are very bad, huh? Look at this: locator and county-division. Please reply to my id-wiki discussion page. Wic2020 04:52, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't say your maps are bad at all. ArcView is a software that is very easy to learn and very creative to use in editing/creating maps (using the old "shape file" format from ESRI). I like the 2nd map a lot, actually - although I cannot read the language (is it Malaysian?). I will compile a list for you of sources that are good references for how to create/edit maps. Rarelibra 8MAR06

Thanks a lot ;) The language is Indonesian (it's mutually intelligible with Malaysian). The second map shows one of local administrative region of regency in Indonesia. I want to make other regency map, either locator map or admin-division map in Indonesia, especially in Java (island). Feel free sending me map templates & resources for wiki (by email). Wic2020 06:08, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

U.S Virgin Islands map -- thank you

Image:US_Virgin_Islands_admin_divisions.png is very nice. Thanks! --Gruepig 05:24, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Slovenian občine

Unfortunately, 12 new municipalities have been established recently and 5 still need to be approved in the National Assembly, so currently there are no accurate maps I can give you. We're going to have to wait for the local elections this fall for some detailed maps of the municipalities to be released.

There's already a map for the (until recently) 193 municipalities though. edolen1 18:50, 17 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Divisions/Departments

Hmm. We seem to be on different pages about whether the English name for Cameroon's départements is divisions or departments. I've changed things back to what I'm fairly certain is the proper nomenclature, but if you decide to revert again, I won't edit war with you. Once I get home, I'll consult my Cameroon library to see how my atlases, histories, etc. handle the issue. I know that, as Fotang stated at Talk:Cameroon, most Anglophone Cameroonians (in my personal experience) refer to these units as divisions rather than departments. — BrianSmithson 17:49, 6 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hey - in the midst of my changes and your reverts, I consulted the official Cameroon government page (http://www.spm.gov.cm/showdoc.php?id_docs=21&lang=en&tpl=1) and found the 'official' breakdown (my source must be from the 'old' makeup). While the UN views them as "departments" (hence the French nomenclature), I appreciate the input... and will follow suit with a breakdown series of maps of the 'divisions'. :) Rarelibra 17:53, 6 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

(Moving discussion back here to avoid fragmentation) I'm beginning to think that I acted too hastily and that "department" is the proper nomenclature. Like I said, Anglophone Cameroonians tend to say division and refer to prefets and sous-prefets as senior divisional officers and junior divisional officers. It gets kind of confusing. :) But the UN page and official page you cite are both very convincing arguments for departments, as is this link. If we decide to change back to departments, Category:Divisions of Cameroon will need a renaming, as well. — BrianSmithson 18:21, 6 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wait; just checked the official Cameroonian government page you linked to and realized that you meant that it uses divisions rather than departments. Damn colonialism by three different European powers! — BrianSmithson 18:27, 6 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

GhanaMaps

The Ghana District Maps are great. I am not a geographer but I'm using some maps in my doctoral dissertation. I brought them back as paper copies a cartographer at the Ghana Electoral Commission created for me. Then I scanned them at Kinkos into .JPGs. I've managed to turn them into pretty good looking maps which I can somewhat laborously manipulate using Adobe Illustrator but from the sounds of it your maps are far easier to change. Do you have any free advice?

Sure... if you would like me to manipulate/create particular maps for you, I offer up my services to you - free of charge. I need a way to contact you outside of Wiki. I have an email address with Wiki - if you are unable to send me a message, then I will gladly provide mine to you. Rarelibra 18:49, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Map of Piedmont

Hi there :) compliments for your many contributions about maps and geography in general! Unfortunately I've found the map of Piedmont you uploaded on Commons is flawed, and doesn't show the correct borders of some provinces - it:Provincia di Vercelli also commprises what you call Province of Biella, Biella itself lies where you put Verbano-Cusio-Ossola, which is more to the right, sharing some border with Lombardy. Since there are so many maps with the same style I thought it would be better just to tell you, and not to upload some corrected version which might look different. ;-) Bye,

137.204.150.44 19:06, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

SVG maps? On Commons?

Hi Rare! I'm a map fan collaborating on a project on Africa in the Portuguese-language Wikipedia, and I have to say you make great maps! My I ask (if it's not asking too much?) that you'd make your maps available in SVG format, and upload these to Wikimedia Commons? That way those maps can be put to more flexible use, in more than just the English wiki. I've never used the software you mention, but if it's cartographic software then it should export in several vector formats. If you need any assistance with Commons, or want to talk about it, please use my talk page. Thanks! – Tintazul ^msg 23:19, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for wanting to create the SVG maps! If the shapes end up labelled, say if the shape for a province has id=the province's name, then so much the better! That really helps. If the SVG's turn out very big, I for one would say it's all right - all the info there is useful. About categorizing, there's usually a Maps of XXX category for each country. If you need me, you know where to find me. – Tintazul ^msg 16:30, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Where are you adding the maps, here at the English wiki or at the Commons? I can't see anything either.

You should create an account on Wikimedia Commons, to add the images there. As to software to produce SVG from jpeg, well, it is best to use the original sources that you have, or you will introduce a lot of errors in the resulting SVG file. If you have ESRI files or other vector format, your software should be able to easily convert to SVG. -- – Tintazul ^msg 13:02, 26 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Maps of Norway

I see you have created some maps of the counties of Norway, and sice you (hopefully) got an easy editable version at your computer, I would be very greatfull if you could have made municipality maps in the same style as there is. see commons:Category:Maps of Nordland for example.

We are lacking maps of these counties,

I (and the rest of no:) would be very greatful if you had the chance to help us. the name of the maps have to be nn kart.png due to templates. Røed 14:41, 7 August 2006 (UTC) just contact me if you got any questions. (I will put your page on survilance as well). Røed 14:41, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Roed - Help me out here. I want to clarify - do you need me to redo the maps I created for Norway, or do you need me to do more maps for the counties you mentioned, at the municipality level? If so, I need assistance in finding a 'base map' or image of such that I can use to trace/digitize the outlines. The sources I have only go down two administrative levels (or up to 5 levels, in cases like France - which has a complex system). ? thanks! 19:29, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I basicly want you to use the maps you have of the listed counties, and make one map for each municipality (with that municipality in red, the others in gray). Røed 21:10, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Administrative Divisions

I just wanted to say hello. I've noticed that you do maps and have done a little editing here and there to Administrative Divisions. I'm currently trying to universalize all the administrative divisions, in respect to their images and list of counties, provinces, etc. I don't need any specific help from you right now, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to say hello and establish a contact for my current undertaking. b_cubed 22:26, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, now I need your map making expertise. I just streamlined the Administrative divisions a little bit for Peru. The only problem is, is that it is an out of date map. The map that I took out of Subdivisions of Peru does not have listed the region Callao, which has since become a province. I checked out the Callao article and it has an image that you could possibly use to update the one on the peru article. Also, when the Callao region is added to the main map, it will of course need renumbering. thanks b_cubed 16:02, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hey b_cubed - consider it done. Based on the available maps on Wiki and the Internet, I have already created (in my database) the area, although I would first like to verify its accuracy. Would you or someone you know be able to verify the accuracy of my boundary definitions? Rarelibra 16:07, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Honestly, I don't know as if i could verify it's accuracy. Nor do I know anyone that really could. I just happened to notice that the map that was being used was a little outdated. sorry b_cubed 17:01, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding Image:Uganda Districts.png

Nice map, well done. --Ezeu 16:30, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

El mapa de los municipios de Espana

Hola Rarelibra. Por lo que yo entiendo necesitas la cartografía municipal de España ¿verdad? OK. Te contesto como hice a otro compañero de la Wikipedia:

Obtener la cartografía municipal de España con la que están hechos los mapas de Wikipedia es sencillo. Para ello tú debes descargarse el siguiente programa que se encuentra en la web del Instituto Nacional de Estadística (INE) de España de esta página.

Después de instalar el programa vete al directorio de instalación C:\Archivos de programa\PX-Map\Maps (en tu ordenador puede que cambie C:\Program Files\PX-Map\Maps). Allí tú encontrarás todos los shapefiles con los municipios de España que usa el programa, con su código INE, superficie, provincia, nombre, etc. listo para cargar en tu GIS.

Espero haberte servido de ayuda.

Reciba un cordial saludo. --Politono 08:26, 18 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No estoy seguro pero el sistema de proyección creo que es UTM ED50. --Politono 21:01, 18 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Municipalities of Brazil

I just wanna thank you for breaking and organizing its content! Gcoliveira 19:44, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Opposing force

I think you have misunderstood my edit. While 'OPFOR' is an abbreviation for 'opposing force', and the terms are very often used with the same meaning, they are not always interchangeable. AFAICT, we are agreed that the term 'OPFOR' is used only for a simulated enemy, not a real one, but this is not the case for 'opposing force'.

Some examples where 'opposing force' is used to refer to a genuine enemy:

PoW Medal criteria (term is also used in the same way in criteria for various other awards) AUSA piece on Aerial Common Sensor 'Combat Models' coursework 'Parameters' magazine article on the Battle of Grozny

This usage is not particularly common (which is why the focus of the article is on simulated enemies, as it should be). However, it does exist - in reputable military publications, at that - and as long as the article's titled 'Opposing force' it should acknowledge that usage.

As for the question of US-centrism: given that simulated enemies are an important part of training to many military powers, it seems to me that it would make sense to have an article that covers the general concept - having a separate article for each nation that does this would lead to a lot of duplication of effort (and I doubt we'd have much luck producing more than a stub for nations other than the US). If 'Opposing force' seems too US-centric a term to fit a general article, it would be better to rename it to something more generic rather than change the scope. --Calair 15:12, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Divisions of Cameroon maps

Good job on your maps of the divisions of Cameroon! You might consider uploading them to Wikimedia Commons as well so that the users of Wikipedias in other languages also have access to them. And they'd also be good additions to the individual province articles (East Province (Cameroon), South Province (Cameroon), etc.). Again, nice work! — BrianSmithson 22:32, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hey BrianSmithson! THANK YOU for the comments on my maps. I finally compiled a list on my map page and found out I have over 100+ maps I've created (Yikes!). I went ahead and got a Commons account and started with loading up the Cameroon maps. Thanks again, and thank you for pointing out the commons to me. Rarelibra 20:00, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

(Just moving the conversation here to avoid fragmentation.) I'm glad to hear that you found my suggestion worthwhile! Commons is a great service, but a lot of people don't know about it. At any rate, keep up the good work! — BrianSmithson 05:29, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology

Since you are interested in flags and emblems I would like to inform you that the WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology has just been created. Why not take a look? I hope you can join. Inge 21:06, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

SUMMARY OF EVENTS

Taalo - sorry, man, but I'm done with all of this. This past day has exposed the truth about Wiki and the global concept of "fair and just". Even in the face of proof - hard proof, references/sources which clearly show unchallengable, inarguable facts - you are not able to make edits because of either (1) a skewed POV that is biased, yet people continue to wish to follow (apathy) or (2) what I will call "selectable" admins that aren't policed by their own. Once you're an admin, suddenly you are king to do your own bidding and not follow what is correct. Maybe we went about it the wrong way, HOWEVER, it is the admin's job to correct the situation while still providing us with the feedback of our own errors. As we have plainly seen, this is not the case... with people out there like Gryffndor and Ryulong - there is no trust in the admins. The sorry part is the POV - input from people who live in the area, and then skewed input by people who say "well, that is in Italian and isn't translated" - got news for you, bub, some things stay as is and don't translate. Just like the whole mess. Well, in wiki you guys win, but in life you lose. Rarelibra 15:06, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 202: / Line 202: @@
 Since you are interested in [[Vexillology|flags]] and [[Heraldry|emblems]] I would like to inform you that the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology|WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology]] has just been created. Why not take a look? I hope you can join. [[User:Inge|Inge]] 21:06, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
+==SUMMARY OF EVENTS==
-== Provinces of Italy ==
+Taalo - sorry, man, but I'm done with all of this. This past day has exposed the truth about Wiki and the global concept of "fair and just". Even in the face of proof - hard proof, references/sources which clearly show unchallengable, inarguable facts - you are not able to make edits because of either (1) a skewed POV that is biased, yet people continue to wish to follow (apathy) or (2) what I will call "selectable" admins that aren't policed by their own. Once you're an admin, suddenly you are king to do your own bidding and not follow what is correct. Maybe we went about it the wrong way, HOWEVER, it is the admin's job to correct the situation while still providing us with the feedback of our own errors. As we have plainly seen, this is not the case... with people out there like Gryffndor and Ryulong - there is no trust in the admins. The sorry part is the POV - input from people who live in the area, and then skewed input by people who say "well, that is in Italian and isn't translated" - got news for you, bub, some things stay as is and don't translate. Just like the whole mess. Well, in wiki you guys win, but in life you lose. [[User:Rarelibra|Rarelibra]] 15:06, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
-Hello Rarelibra, why did you revert the edits on Provinces of Italy?  In the Italian constitution even this region is referred to as Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol.  The latter sharing the Italian and German names.  There has been a campaign by Austrians to list the English as Trentino-South Tyrol, but it is something that really does not exist.  Doing a Google Test shows most English pages actually refer to the region as Trentino-Alto Adige.  Anyway, how it is now is really the correct listing. [[User:Taalo|Taalo]] 20:03, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
-: Rarelibra, my family is from this region and also from Italy, but I am a native English speaker based in the USA. Just check out the links I'll provide. The Provinces are Trento (TN) and Bolzano/Bozen (BZ).  The cities are in Italy and are called first Bolzano, then Bozen.  Every sign has Bolzano/Bozen, Merano/Meran, etc.  The so-called English name of South Tyrol has been invented by individuals with a German POV.  [[User:Taalo|Taalo]] 02:50, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-http://www.provinz.bz.it/lpa/autonomy/autonomy_statute_eng.pdf
-https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/it.html#Govt
-http://www.oefre.unibe.ch/law/icl/it00000_.html
-(refer to Article 116 about Province names)
-http://www.countriesandcities.com/countries/it/provinces.htm
-== Renaming a page ==
-To rename a page, use the "move" function. If you use cut and paste like you did at [[South Tyrol]]/[[Alto Adige]], this destroys the page history, and so I have reverted your edits. Also, as [[South Tyrol]] is an English name, the [[WP:NC|naming conventions]] strongly favor this name. If you want to try to have the page moved, please file a request at [[WP:RM]]. Thank you, [[User:Kusma|Kusma]] [[User_talk:Kusma|(討論)]] 15:11, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-:Hi Kusma, there is more involved here really.  South Tyrol is an English name, just as Upper Adige is an English name.  The point is, is that the Province is actually called Bolzano (or Bozen in German).  There is no province named South Tyrol, unless you go back to the Austrian-Hungarian Empire.. which I guess is what some individuals are trying to do (i.e. "Greater Austria"). [[User:Taalo|Taalo]] 17:02, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-::Taalo - I renamed with BOTH translations to make a multilingual diversity happy. Hopefully this will work. Next we'll work on renaming the cities back to proper Italian-German name. [[User:Rarelibra|Rarelibra]] 17:03, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-:::Rarelibra, amazing.  Yes, putting it with multilingual is really the best way, in my opinion.  I also don't see how the German or Italian partisans can come up with an argument against "sharing".  If you need any references or more info on this region I can help.  It means so much to me to have this done in a correct and neutral fashion.  I can ask some relatives to take photos of the city signs that show Bolzano-Bozen, Brennero-Brenner, etc.  This is definitely how all cities in this region are named. I really don't know how to thank you enough for at least trying to put things right. [[User:Taalo|Taalo]] 17:07, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-I agree with Kusma, please do not just start moving these pages. Whether or not I agree with the moves, they concern currently controversial topics and should be discussed at talk to gain consensus. [[User:Olessi|Olessi]] 17:06, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-:Hi Olessi, one problem with this though.  What I've seen on these pages is a lot were changed to this POV, and then the argument keeps coming up that we have to find "consensus" to put them back.  Shouldn't it be the other way around?  Also, since this is a highly controversial subject, how do we get rid of the POV?  If we have 10 Austrian partisans parcipate and two Italian neutrals.  How will we get a fair result?  I'm just playing Devil's advocate.  Anyway, in my opinion if these pages stay the same, they will idle like this for another year.  take care. [[User:Taalo|Taalo]] 17:10, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-Olessi - if you cannot see the point in what Taalo is saying, the photos will ultimately prove it. So the multilingual diversity translations should stay as fair and just per Wiki rules. [[User:Rarelibra|Rarelibra]] 17:09, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-What is amazing is if this ends up staying with a German/Austrian POV. The actual city names in the region are Italian-German, NOT German-Italian, yet everything seems to suddenly be switched to a German-Italian heading - a very clear German POV. Look, my history comes from Bavaria, but I recognize what is right. Don't be too proud to make this correct and remove the biased POV. As for the naming, the double-translated English seems to be the best possible option, and the most correct for translating BOTH names - not just because one book in English lists it as "South Tyrol". I'm sure I can find some that reference "Upper Adige" as well. Just as in the [[Cyprus]] page, they have a shared Greek AND Turkish translation. So make it that way here and keep things fair and just. [[User:Rarelibra|Rarelibra]] 17:17, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-:Same here, my roots are from Italian/Austrian, and I thereby respect both.  Seeing people change all the names around, just for the sake of having German first.  It is just -not- right.  They actually tried to use the excuse that German is before Italian in English.  I mean, come on.  I don't know, but I like people to at least come out and say why there are doing something, not try and be sneaky about it. [[User:Taalo|Taalo]] 18:17, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-==Province of Bolzano/Bozen==
-Hi Rarelibra, one correction I have for you.  I know it is kind of confusing, but the region as a whole is Trentino-Upper Adige/South Tyrol (the South and North).  Then the provinces are actually called Province of Trento and Province of Bolzano/Bozen.  The region the Province of Trento is in is the whole Trentino-Upper Adige/South Tyrol (though logically it is actually in the region Trentino).  The same for the Province of Bolzano/Bozen.  It is in the whole Trentino-Upper Adige/South Tyrol (though actually in the Upper Adige/South Tyrol part).  Is this making any sense? :)  So actually the page that is [[South Tyrol]] and was now moved to [[Upper Adige/South Tyrol]], should actually just be the [[Province of Bolzano/Bozen]]. [[User:Taalo|Taalo]] 17:23, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-:That's why it is best to discuss things at talk. Now the Upper Adige / South Tyrol articles are all over the place. Please ask an administrator to reverse the moves so they can be properly discussed at talk. Moves done hastily can lead to errors or revert wars. Cheers, [[User:Olessi|Olessi]] 17:29, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-::Well it is the only error I've found.  I've pointed it out to Rarelibra, and it can easily be fixed. [[Upper Adige/South Tyrol]] should just be the [[Province of Bolzano/Bozen]].  The region page takes care of the Trentino-Upper Adige/South Tyrol bit.  Simple. [[User:Taalo|Taalo]] 17:39, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-Proper discussion has proven pointless, Olessi - especially with some of the admins involved being GERMAN. It is in these 'outer edges' of discussion that Wiki displays its most discussed weaknesses. And these weaknesses are what continue to make Wikipedia a battleground (of sorts) for POV as one admin and another get involved. In this case, is it not plain to see the need for clarity? [[User:Rarelibra|Rarelibra]] 17:34, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-::All I can say is, AMEN! [[User:Taalo|Taalo]] 17:39, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-I saw that the page was moved to [[Province of Bolzano/Bozen]].  I made a few corrections also, updating the regional name to the province.  I have to say, this is the first time in a year I've seen these pages listed correctly, and most of all, fairly!  I can only hope that it stays this way.  I'll do my best to help in updating these pages and really making the worth of the two provinces and this region as a whole. [[User:Taalo|Taalo]] 17:50, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-::Crickey! What a mess. Why can't you discuss things before moving controversial articles? This is what [[WP:RQM]] is for after all. [[User:Asterion|<font color="Blue">'''Asterion'''</font>]]<sup><small>[[User talk:Asterion|<font color="Green">'''talk'''</font>]]</small></sup> 20:30, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-:::OK, I'm glad you realised about it. Can we take the discussion back to [[Talk:Communes of South Tyrol]] and take it from there? Thanks, [[User:Asterion|<font color="Blue">'''Asterion'''</font>]]<sup><small>[[User talk:Asterion|<font color="Green">'''talk'''</font>]]</small></sup>
-== Page moves ==
-Hi, I would like to direct you to this guideline on Wikipedia: [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English)]]. Please don't move pages about, again. [[User:Ryulong|Ryūlóng]] 17:58, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-:Excuse me Ryulong, but the moves were to make corrections.  How the pages were named so far were in a manner that was absolutely false. take care. [[User:Taalo|Taalo]] 18:06, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-:ah jeez dude, you are reverting everything.  I just made corrections on the Bolzano-Bozen page also.  I got to get to work now, and don't have time to fix things again. :< [[User:Taalo|Taalo]] 18:08, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-::It's just that I have seen no references to any sort of discussion as to these moves. If you would bring it up at the talk pages of each article, and then have the whole of the editors of the article decide on the correct name, then by all means then the pages should be moved. It is just that using both translations in the name (Trentino-[insert name]/Upper Adige) is of bad form. Wikipedia has guidelines on naming pages such as these, and I do not know of the correct names myself. I would, however, you prefer that you discuss these moves between more than two editors in the future. [[User:Ryulong|Ryūlóng]] 18:09, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-::And I would be fine if I had to fix any sorts of messes that I may have made, through requested moves, and perhaps asking for administrative assistance, but now is a bad time to try and work all of this out. [[User:Ryulong|Ryūlóng]] 18:11, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-:::Hi Ryolong, the thing is though that some of these pages were even moved originally without consensus. Those with a strong German POV had kept them like this for a year, essentially hijacking these pages.  Some of the things are just incredibly wrong, like having the Province of Bolzano/Bozen called South Tyrol (!?!). I put down a lot of references for Rarelibra and Olessi, etc. I guess it was too good to be true that these names were finally corrected.  It was nearly perfect there for a bit. Man, I give up.. : \ [[User:Taalo|Taalo]] 18:14, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-:Ryolong, be very careful when mentioning the Wikipedia rules on English usage, especially when those very rules state "Whichever is chosen, one should place a redirect at the other title and mention both forms in the lead". The solution we have come to uses both forms in the lead. By changing such, YOU are violating wikipedia rules. [[User:Rarelibra|Rarelibra]] 18:33, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-::It would sure be nice if we just had one place to discuss this all.  I now have Markussep accusing me of vandalism on my talk page. *rolls eyes* [[User:Taalo|Taalo]] 18:48, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-I have no opinion on the fight, but I'd like to point out to both of you (crossposted to Ryulong) that these moves are creating several double redirects, and it would be nice if y'all could clean up the mess when you're done moving things. --[[User:Golbez|Golbez]] 20:33, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-:I've cleaned it all up and posted the sources/references reflecting the correct naming. Sorry about that, all! [[User:Rarelibra|Rarelibra]] 20:47, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-==Provinces of Italy==
-Rarelibra, can we actually list as a reference that countries and cities website?  I was thinking that citations like this included on the page, can at least start getting people to realize what the truth of the matter is. [[User:Taalo|Taalo]] 19:44, 2 October 2006 (UTC)j
-:Taalo - yes, we can. Also list http://www.statoids.com/uit.html, which shows Bolzano (NOT Bozen) as the proper name for the province (we are definitely being fair by listing it as Bolzano-Bozen). Also list http://www.world-gazetteer.com/wg.php?x=&men=gmap&lng=en&dat=32&geo=-108&srt=npan&col=aohdq, which shows a map with the name as "Trentino-Alto Adige". Also list http://www.world-gazetteer.com/wg.php?x=&men=gcis&lng=en&dat=32&geo=-108&srt=npan&col=aohdq&pt=c&va=x&geo=-1956, showing the cities in the properly named region. And this http://www.world-gazetteer.com/wg.php?x=&men=gpro&lng=en&dat=32&geo=-1956&srt=npan&col=aohdq&pt=c&va=x&geo=491419135, showing "Bozen" listed as an ALTERNATE name for Bolzano (which, I remember reading, a user who LIVES THERE says the name is). Also list this one http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Italy_Autonomous_regions.htm, showing the actual name as "Trentino-Alto Adige" as well.
-::Yes, exactly, it is definitely being fair listing both names (Bolzano-Bozen), yet you have people who want to call it South Tyrol only, or Bozen only, or change it Bozen-Bolzano.  It is like these people have zero shame, or are just very thick skinned. [[User:Taalo|Taalo]] 20:33, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-At this point, I am pissed off enough to say "screw it" and have the name be JUST "Trentino-Alto Adige", reflecting what the sources say. The "South Tyrol" is in need of a 'tourism' page, really (or a sub-page topic from the actual region). I'm tired of those that don't recognize the POV. They went throught this a while on the Cyprus page until they learned to accept BOTH Greek and Turkish names for districts (listed AFTER the English equivalent). I'll list the official references and they cannot argue against them. [[User:Rarelibra|Rarelibra]] 19:56, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-: Having friends from Cyprus, I can just imagine!  You would think, at the very least, people interested in WP could accept these sort of comprimises where we SHARE. I don't know, it makes me sad to see people in the Old Country act like this.  This is just another thing that makes me proud to be born and raised in the US.  Despite our faults, we seem to be able to get away from this petty b.s.  Also, growing up here has given me a World view of things, including my famlies region.  Instead, sometimes those who have never left the area, see things in an extremely narrow view (and I'm not looking down on them for this, but it -can- be the case). Anyway, we'll see if everyone can chill the heck out, or if it turns into a revert war..  Still though, it is beyond me why people can't accept pages that have Bolzano-Bozen, for example.  This is what is done in the region, for this exact reason, to take care of everyone! [[User:Taalo|Taalo]] 20:36, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-== first warning ==
-{{mp0-n|South Tyrol}} [[User:Gryffindor|<font color="red">Gryffindor</font>]] 21:05, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-:Do not copy and paste contents of articles around. Take a look here [[Wikipedia:How to fix cut and paste moves]] and please clean up the mess you have created, otherwise a [[sysop]] has to do it. [[User:Gryffindor|<font color="red">Gryffindor</font>]] 21:09, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-::You Gryffindor, have NO SHAME. I'm not surprised by your actions one bit. But I'm am glad that you are showing off your true colours. How you can try to use the WP framework and rules to further your POV is just discusting. In fact, you should relinguish your admin rights if you have a descent bone in your body. You know exactly what you did on 25 Oct 2005 with the moving of the Trentino-Alto Adige regional page. You moved without discussion, and then cemented this change. You also know what you have done on all pages with regard to this region. This is unethical, and you should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself. You can blow this off as accusations, POV, a personal attack, whatever you want. BUT, there comes a time though when someone has to remove the mask of what you are doing. Going as far as switching the city names around, and now we have the Province of Bolzano/Bozen called "South Tyrol". This is offensive to anyone who wants to build this project, or is a human being, for that matter! [[User:Taalo|Taalo]] 21:12, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-:::I repeat, do not copy and paste contents of articles around, because this destroys the history of the articles and is a difficult process to repair. Please revert the changes done on the articles or someone else will have to clean up. Disregarding this rule can amount to a charge of [[vandalism]]. [[User:Gryffindor|<font color="red">Gryffindor</font>]] 21:38, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-::::Sorry my dear Gryffindor, but what you have done to these pages over the past year is an extreme case of [[vandalism]]. The truth of this will come out. [[User:Taalo|Taalo]] 21:42, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-== assume good faith ==
-{{agf1}} [[User:Gryffindor|<font color="red">Gryffindor</font>]] 21:13, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-: You are posting these rules like a robot.  Listen, I think everyone will assume good faith.  But do you realize the meaning of these words?  Assuming good faith, is different than taking everything a user does and accepting it.  Your actions have lost you your assumption of good faith.  I do not hold your methods in good faith.  That is your issue, not mine, or everyone elses. [[User:Taalo|Taalo]] 21:16, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-Check out what Gryffindor posted on my talk page.  Gryffindor, you are showing your true colours all by yourself. [[User:Taalo|Taalo]] 21:18, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-==Cut-and-paste==
-As you can see, I disagree with Gryffindor on most of the substantive points at issue. But he is quite right in saying that pages like [[South Tyrol]] should not be moved without discussion. We have a process for [[WP:RM|requesting moves]]; please click and use it.
-Most importantly, it disrupts Wikipedia to move pages by cutting and pasting, like you did with [[South Tyrol]]. This is disruptive to WP; it loses article history, which we have to retain for [[GFDL]]. Please stop now. Your way to overcome Gryffindor is to persuade other editors he is wrong. You have not begun well; but it should still be possible. ;-> [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 22:31, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-: Let me butt in please.  If you note, Gryffindor HIMSELF moved Trentino-Alto Adige to Trentino-South Tyrol on 25, Oct 2005.  He did this without discussion, consensus, or a move request.  Also, pages like [[South Tyrol]].  Please look at any list of provinces of Italy.  The province is the Province of Bolzano/Bozen.  These users, in particular Gryffindor, are for some reason or another trying to push an extreme German POV.  They are essentially trying to re-invent what is the English reference to this region and even province.  Besides having to persuade editors what is right and wrong information, is there no recourse to address users (and even an admin!) such as Gryffindor, for what he is doing on Wikipedia?  I'm sorry to make this discussion about a user, but besides the discusting work that was done to rename all these places, the people who are pushing this should answer for it. Or so it would seem. [[User:Taalo|Taalo]] 23:59, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-== Cut and paste ==
-Please do '''NOT''' perform cut and paste moves such as those at [[South Tyrol]] and others. It is disruptive and ruins the page history. In the future, please [[WP:RM|request that these moves be made for you]]. [[User:Ryulong|Ryūlóng]] 23:47, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
-: Fine, if things were done in a disruptive manner, thanks for bringing it up.  But, Ryolong, can you at least help us go about the correct way of fixing these?  For one, I don't want to see Gryffindor get the chance to let this situation idle for another year in various talk rooms, where him and his buddys can force their own naming convention for good.  That is how he originally got WP where it is now. For all intents and purposes, they have hijacked the pages for this region, and are moving everything to names that are clearly German POV.  I mean, it isn't even something you have to look hard to find, it is right in everyone's face! [[User:Taalo|Taalo]] 00:04, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
-::Cut and paste moves are not allowed as they cause copyright problems, etc.  Doing them repetitively will be considered blockable disruption.  Please take these articles to [[WP:RM]] instead.  Let me know if you have any questions.  —[[User:wknight94|Wknight94]] ([[User talk:wknight94|talk]]) 00:38, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
-:::Ok, I think it is fair enough to take them to [[WP:RM]].  Even though, that is actually what I think I tried to do.  The use Gryffindor and his supporters will make the argument we have to debate things in talk though, and things will stay as they have put them, forever.  This is what I'm afraid of.  I guess it means if there are 100 Mexicans on here, to 10 Americans, WP will actually say California is in Mexico? *sigh*.  anyhow, thanks for getting involved. [[User:Taalo|Taalo]] 00:45, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
-==Motivation==
-So my friend, see just how well this POV has been embedded?  I've wasted a good day now on this.  Is it worth it?  I would like to have the motivation to continue, but when you have to go on WP and literally fight to say blue is blue, green is green, it really becomes frusterating.  I can understand how this is just one debate among many, and the majority of WP users will just ask everyone to follow the rules, etc., etc.  But, I'm really shocked that so few actually open their eyes to what has been done.  I mean, the Province of Bolzano (Bozen) listed as South Tyrol?!?  I think I'm going to go come up with a new name for a couple States in our Union! :)  Just kidding.  Anyway, I can see that certain users have taken it upon themselves to somehow re-write the names in WP, maybe in some hope of changing them everywhere.  I don't know.  But this attitude is really discusting, and is actually an insult to everything the region of Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol is about.  That is the real shame in it all.  my best regards. [[User:Taalo|Taalo]] 00:43, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
-Hah, someone will definitely scold me for this.  But, you know what at least got me laughing, was imagining this Gryffindor person (what ever he/she looks like) saying over and over assume good faith, assume good faith, all while having a darned knife aimed square at your back. :)  Sorry, but with how many times I've read that today, and from the actions I know certain users have taken, it really fits! LOL.  good night. [[User:Taalo|Taalo]] 00:53, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
-====Regarding edits made during [[October 3]] [[2006]] ([[UTC]]) to [[Trentino-Alto Adige]]====
-[[Image:Stop hand.svg|left|30px]] Welcome to Wikipedia. We invite everyone to contribute constructively to our encyclopedia. Take a look at the [[Wikipedia:Welcome, newcomers|welcome page]] if you would like to learn more about contributing. However, unconstructive edits are considered [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]], and if you continue in this manner you may be '''[[Wikipedia:blocking policy|blocked]] from editing without further warning'''. Please stop, and consider improving rather than damaging the work of others. Thank you. <!-- Template:Blatantvandal (serious warning) -->  [[User:Ryulong|Ryūlóng]] 01:56, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
-I've tried to show you the right way of going about this. Please '''[[WP:RM|request that these pages be moved]]''' which only takes five days. I will even support the move to help you, but doing them yourself in the way that you have been '''[[WP:CUTPASTE|is wrong]]'''. [[User:Ryulong|Ryūlóng]] 02:07, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
-: Well I have to disagree anything was done that was "unconstructive".  You don't know the history of this situation, so you are just applying the rules, and that is understandable.  Can you please give me a little guidance on how to do this?  The thing is I'm not experienced with WP.  The users who moved things in the first place and guard this German POV are experienced users with essentially a group of their own. take care. [[User:Taalo|Taalo]] 02:56, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
-::My guidance is that you go to [[Wikipedia:Requested moves]] and do everything there. Read those instructions, and wait for the poll to go through. Right now, this cut-paste moving is getting ridiculous. [[User:Ryulong|Ryūlóng]] 03:09, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
-:::Thanks Ryulong, I've tried to go as properly through this as possible for all these pages.  The thing that just bothers the heck out of me is how Gryffindor aggressively treats this situation.  He is now an admin, and I feel he abuses these rights.  Maybe I'm not familiar with the horror stories, but I've never seen such behavior.  Is there no recourse for us regular folk?? I mean, the guy went and posted requests to have the pages locked down now, saying we were making changes to "non-sense names".  This is now flat-out lying.  Also, with regard to a debate that he is a part of, and actually initiated in 25 Oct. 2005 when he moved pages without any discussion what-so-ever. [[User:Taalo|Taalo]] 10:49, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
-== Cut-and-paste pagemoves ==
-Please see [[Help:Moving a page]] -- we don't move pages via cut-and-paste, anymore. If you need assistance for any reason, you're more than welcome to post at [[WP:RM|requested moves]] or the [[WP:HD|help desk]]. I can see that this has gotten out of hand, and that's unfortunate; people are getting defensive, and that only makes things worse. I'm not going to say you can't move pages -- on the contrary, Wikipedians should always '''[[WP:BB|be bold]]''' and fix problems -- but I do ask that you move pages in a particular way, as specified at [[WP:MOVE]]. Thanks for your consideration. [[User:Luna Santin|Luna Santin]] 02:10, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
-== My take ==
-The key here is to not keep moving things, but rather, take a few minutes/days out to discuss it. Bring it up on the pump, on the appropriate standards pages, what not. But I won't help you engage in a revert war, even if it is valid (and I haven't examined it enough to determine that). --[[User:Golbez|Golbez]] 02:13, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
-:Reverting by doing a cut-and-paste move is not valid.  Bring it to [[WP:RM]] or have another sympathetic admin do a proper move - but don't do a cut-and-paste move.  —[[User:wknight94|Wknight94]] ([[User talk:wknight94|talk]]) 02:17, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
-== FInal warning ==
-One more edit like [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=South_Tyrol&diff=prev&oldid=79165212 this] and you will be blocked - not for 3RR but for general disruption via cut-and-paste moves.  Same goes for anyone else reading this.  We don't do cut-and-paste moves - that's it.  —[[User:wknight94|Wknight94]] ([[User talk:wknight94|talk]]) 02:15, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
-So instead of stepping in and correcting things, making things right - instead you people choose to keep incorrect, inaccurate, and biased POV information out there. Wonderful. Pathetic. Good luck. [[User:Rarelibra|Rarelibra]] 02:39, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
-: The sad thing is that they are all playing right into the hands of Gryffindor, et al. I can definitely understand the point of rules being rules.  However, no one seems to bring up what is obviously the first rule above all else -- accurate, and non-POV information!  Isn't it just bloody ironic?  We are being slammed for going about fixing things the "wrong" way, but no one has gone banging on the door of those who did this disgraceful work in the first place.  Anyway, do you want to show me how to do things by "the book", in one last attempt to fix things?  I can completely understand if you want to bail on this.  I've already seen from last October how this dirty game is played. my best regards, [[User:Taalo|Taalo]] 02:54, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
-==Talk page==
-Don't ever threaten me again. I don't take kindly to that at all. Your tone is disrespectful, insulting, rude, and inconsiderate. [[User:Rarelibra|Rarelibra]] 02:38, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
-:Thanks for the drama.  My offer still stands.  —[[User:wknight94|Wknight94]] ([[User talk:wknight94|talk]]) 02:57, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
-::Hey Wknight94, please just understand where Rarelibra is coming from (I'm guessing you do).  He was just trying to help with this situation.  I already feel bad enough that I even brought this to his attention, and got him involved in this farce.  From what I've seen these users do to manipulate these pages over the last year, it can definitely make the blood boil.  I'll try to have this fixed by the book.  I'm not so familiar with these processes, so any help would be appreciated.  The one thing I'm familiar with is this region -- and right now what Gryffindor, et al. have setup is just so discusting -- well it just is not something that can be brushed aside.  Thanks again. [[User:Taalo|Taalo]] 03:02, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
-:::I'll be happy to assist with any ''proper'' action anyone would like to take to remedy a problem situation but improper actions will bring warnings and ignored warnings will bring stronger warnings.  Let me know what proper action you need assistance with and I'll do what I can.  —[[User:wknight94|Wknight94]] ([[User talk:wknight94|talk]]) 03:12, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
-::::I have no problem with going by the book on things.  The only thing I insist on is a non-biased, and most of all, correct naming system to be used.  I mean, calling the Province of Bolzano [[South Tyrol]], that is just a discusting display of POV. thanks to you all. [[User:Taalo|Taalo]] 03:44, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
-Oh wow, thank you SOOOOO much for "keeping an eye out" on things - like noticing the blatant renaming of the improper naming convention in Italy. Wow, what a hero. Next time thank me for keeping the country safe, bud. [[User:Rarelibra|Rarelibra]] 04:11, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
-:You won't be happy until you're blocked, will you.  —[[User:wknight94|Wknight94]] ([[User talk:wknight94|talk]]) 04:15, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
-==Move Requests==
-I've resubmitted all the move requests.  I'm willing to be patient and wait for the process to go through.  I will collect references and try to put together a good arguement for everyone to why blue is blue.. I mean why the province is named Bolzano/Bozen. :)  I hope all of you that have hopefully gotten some inclination to what this group (Gryffindor, et al.) have done in the past year, do really show up and help make things right.  The process they have done over the last year, switching around names, deleting the Italian names, etc., etc. is discusting and an insult to this project. Cheers. [[User:Taalo|Taalo]] 03:10, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
-:I'll keep an eye on this to ensure things don't go bad (as you feel they have in the past).  —[[User:wknight94|Wknight94]] ([[User talk:wknight94|talk]]) 03:12, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
-::I really appreciate it.  Though I think it is a bit funny I have to argue what the name of an Italian province is, and how Italian cities in a particular region are called, I'll certainly try my best. :) [[User:Taalo|Taalo]] 03:45, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
-==Alrighty==
-I've placed all the move requestions, and I've done with Wknight94 suggested of actually setting up the move template.  I did this for [[Trentino-South Tyrol]], [[South Tyrol]], [[Bozen-Bolzano]], [[Meran-Merano]], [[Brenner, Italy]], [[Brixen, Italy]].  Of course there are tons of towns now that only list the German name, Italy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communes_of_South_Tyrol. [[User:Taalo|Taalo]] 05:12, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
-Ok, so I've done as the admins have asked and followed this move pages procedure.  I've tried to post as many citations as possible.  I'm already seeing this, but more or less you just get individuals who show up with their own opinion and vote yes or no.  I would think that we should foremost let the citations guide us and not our own personal opinions.  This is what I've seen done on the majority of other pages.   Just the situation where you can have 20 people with one POV show up and outvote those with what may actually be the correct view, just seems bizarre to me.  It really seems then that people can attempt to do some sort of virtual takeover of regions.  I just need to organize 1000 Mexican Wikipedians, and I guess I can take over North and South America. HAH.  Really bizarre.  Anyway, I can just hope that reality prevails and some of these individuals drop this nationistic game.  regards. [[User:Taalo|Taalo]] 10:24, 3 October 2006 (UTC)