*I propose [[WP:BOOMERANG]] block of the OP. (I've been quite critical of calls for BOOMERANG and those who love to apply it, as it has migrated from it's original -- that a complainer is guilty of the same complaint they are registering, in the same instance. In this case I think the application is perfect, since admin Toddst1's complaint of [[WP:BATTLE]] clearly applies to Toddst1, an admin known for holding grudges and going after others based on incivility concerns, which is a lark, since there are more pernicious ways of metering out incivility, than saying a bad word in a blunt reply on user Talk, such as what Toddst1 has mastered: following around his pet targets, inciting them to respond, then trying to reap maximum damage, all the while never saying a bad word himself in nearly his entire editing history, just to be sure no one can put an objective finger on his own incivility. There is probably a Mother Goose fable about this, basically, wolf in sheep's clothing story. Toddst1 is a rogue admin, this proves to me no change after his dodge from being de-sysopped.) ¶ Admin TNT did a block from the hip, a surfacy "incivility block" to the max, which is supposed to be reserved for users doing egregious damage. After Toddst1 gave one of those to me, he further attempted to bury me alive, by removing my Talk page access. (TNT, how much background on these two respective users did you do? None? Thought so.) And about telling someone to "fuck off" their own Talk page, if you think that is uncivil, they please go tell admin Drmies, who is now also arbcom, as he several times told me that on his Talk page. (Hypocrisy much?) ¶ User Ad Orientem, go soak your head, trying to use an editor's block history against them. (Classic technique to bias others according to your wishes. Let's see, Toddst1 indef-blocked me, is that a strike against me, or against Toddst1?) --[[User:Ihardlythinkso|IHTS]] ([[User talk:Ihardlythinkso#top|talk]]) 03:26, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
*I propose [[WP:BOOMERANG]] block of the OP. (I've been quite critical of calls for BOOMERANG and those who love to apply it, as it has migrated from it's original -- that a complainer is guilty of the same complaint they are registering, in the same instance. In this case I think the application is perfect, since admin Toddst1's complaint of [[WP:BATTLE]] clearly applies to Toddst1, an admin known for holding grudges and going after others based on incivility concerns, which is a lark, since there are more pernicious ways of metering out incivility, than saying a bad word in a blunt reply on user Talk, such as what Toddst1 has mastered: following around his pet targets, inciting them to respond, then trying to reap maximum damage, all the while never saying a bad word himself in nearly his entire editing history, just to be sure no one can put an objective finger on his own incivility. There is probably a Mother Goose fable about this, basically, wolf in sheep's clothing story. Toddst1 is a rogue admin, this proves to me no change after his dodge from being de-sysopped.) ¶ Admin TNT did a block from the hip, a surfacy "incivility block" to the max, which is supposed to be reserved for users doing egregious damage. After Toddst1 gave one of those to me, he further attempted to bury me alive, by removing my Talk page access. (TNT, how much background on these two respective users did you do? None? Thought so.) And about telling someone to "fuck off" their own Talk page, if you think that is uncivil, they please go tell admin Drmies, who is now also arbcom, as he several times told me that on his Talk page. (Hypocrisy much?) ¶ User Ad Orientem, go soak your head, trying to use an editor's block history against them. (Classic technique to bias others according to your wishes. Let's see, Toddst1 indef-blocked me, is that a strike against me, or against Toddst1?) --[[User:Ihardlythinkso|IHTS]] ([[User talk:Ihardlythinkso#top|talk]]) 03:26, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
**Ha, "hypocrisy much" says the editor who only shows up when there's an opportunity for digging up old grudges. For the record, Toddst1 is, on the whole, always, a fine, fine admin, and never finer than when he blocked you. Did I tell you to fuck off? Maybe so--on my own talk page, where you used to come trolling, back in the good old days.<p>We can have a discussion here about the value of the block, the value of the warning that led to the block, the speed with which the block was issues, the length of the block, the value of the editor relative to the disruption they cause (if any--some minor edit warring and a "fuck off" or two on their own talk), but for none of those things we need ''you''. Stick to chess--you were doing fine there! [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 03:33, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
**Ha, "hypocrisy much" says the editor who only shows up when there's an opportunity for digging up old grudges. For the record, Toddst1 is, on the whole, always, a fine, fine admin, and never finer than when he blocked you. Did I tell you to fuck off? Maybe so--on my own talk page, where you used to come trolling, back in the good old days.<p>We can have a discussion here about the value of the block, the value of the warning that led to the block, the speed with which the block was issues, the length of the block, the value of the editor relative to the disruption they cause (if any--some minor edit warring and a "fuck off" or two on their own talk), but for none of those things we need ''you''. Stick to chess--you were doing fine there! [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 03:33, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
**I thought I recalled a prior history between IHTS and Toddst1, one that didn't necessarily reflect well on the latter. In the admin's defense, both Joe and IHTS are known for uncollegial behavior, but that doesn't mean that Toddst1's behavior was optimal in any way. It is unfortunate, IHTS, that you chose to jump in here with a petulant rant, and telling another editor to "go soak your head" is not appropriate behavior. IHTS, this is not an elementary school playground. [[User:Lepricavark|Lepricavark]] ([[User talk:Lepricavark|talk]]) 03:43, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
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Repetitive accusations of antisemitism and homophobia, and threats and personal attacks by XIIIfromTokyo
Summary of the request
Because of an original content dispute, XIIIfromTokyo has artificially created a discussion on antisemitism, and another one on homophobia, and has blatantly deformed my answers to say I am antisemitic and homophobic, and is repetiting these claims since December 2016 and on different pages in spite of my defense and other contributors' intervention. On top of that, he is doing intimidation, by telling me the press could talk about this and with legal threats to we do not know who. When I try to alert about this, he is changing the subject into a content dispute (talking about the content dispute, the French wikipedia article he wrote, his disputes there, comparison between articles, etc.), even though the content disputes are irrelevant here. When I try to tell him to stop calling me these things and threatening me, he is talking about the articles, and when I try to talk about the articles, he answers with these attacks. And he persists in this attitude in spite of all the warnings.
The content of the articles are off-topic here, but I worked on multiple articles and XIII – who has a tendency to paranoia (sorry for the use of the term) – is focusing on two of them to try to show a imaginary bias (even though I have been discussing with other editors on articles, and we managed to have consensus; these two articles were different and needed different answers, as talk pages and administrators decisions show), is doing every personal attacks to fulfill his imaginary purpose. He has been obviously wrongfully accusing me of antisemitism and homophobia, and attacking and threatening me for 10 months in talk pages. I do not feel safe contributing because these long-going attacks are very hurtful, they have been going on for a long time in spite of every call to stop and they will continue unless the user is banned.
XIIIfromTOKYO has been accusing me of antisemitism, homophobia a bit everywhere since last year, and I cannot use a talk page without him going back to these outragious accusations. On top of that, he has been threatening me and constantly using an aggressive language.
ACCUSATIONS OF ANTISEMITISM
Original context
The first student association of Panthéon-Assas University is – at least on Facebook – a Jewish association, UEJF (Union des Étudiants Juifs de France) Assas. Because of that, someone tagged the door of this association office inside the university with a swastika, and the university and the student association asked the public prosecutor to bring charges.
XIII seems to have something against this university, so he is behaving aggressively to change the article, and another institution (this time in favor of it) because he considers they are rivals.
Among many misuse of sources, he gave many articles which related the swastika incident, and others (policemen had been put in the 1990s to protect the university from violent groups, like other Parisian universities). He was saying that it shows that the university has a tradition of antisemitism and racism and of beating (ratonnade) Jews and foreigners! I kindly explained, and wrote in particular: "What you are quoting (some fights sometimes near the university) is not at all what you are saying, ie foreigners and Jews being commonly beaten up in PA (ratonnades) or PA as an institution having or having the reputation to have an enduring tradition of racism and antisemitism!"[1] He was talking of beating people out of racism and antisemitism, so I said that it is absolutely false that foreigners and Jews are beaten up in one of the top institutions of France.
Accusation 1
He deformed what I said and answered:
Copy/pasted quoting
Why are you refering to jew students as "foreigners" ? World War II is over, and you can still be French and jew. You should start to really carefully care about the words you use. […] XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 09:54, 3 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I did not write that at all, what you are writing is absolutely outrageous! […]
I explained that I obviously did not write that, but he is continuing since then to write on different pages I intervene that I wrote anti-Semitic things, or to imply I am a neo-nazi, so that I continuously have to defend myself, and so that the wrong is already done with other users.
You have used to word "foreigners" to described thoses students, victims of racism and antisemitism. This kind of speech in France is deeply connected to far-right movements, and is considered as hate-speech. You say that you know a lot of things about France, so that's definitely something that you can't ignore. You are responsible for what you say. […] XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 12:23, 3 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
So now there is a strong Jewish community in this college. Do you have a reference to back that claim, or is that from your personnal experience or préjugés ? XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 10:23, 10 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I have read with some supprise that, according to Launebee, this university
has a strong jewish community
. Is that again your point of view about jew students, or do you have serious references about that ?
Needless to say that after your previous statement, and your rewritting of the article of a well-know "néo-nazi" association[6], you might need to start to carefully chose the words you use. XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 16:49, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I already gave you the reference. It is simply the first student association on Facebook. Please stop these continuing outrageous accusations. --Launebee (talk) 19:14, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It is not something written in the article. I was just answering you, since you implied outrageous things. Stop this disruptive activity. --Launebee (talk) 21:43, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
ACCUSATIONS OF HOMOPHOBIA
The same system: he transformed something, put it everywhere so I constantly have to defend myself of this accusation.
Original context
Richard Descoings died in mysterious circumstances. He was homosexual and married, and it was controversial. Many newspapers, including gay community newspapers, talked about it.[8][9][10][11][12]) I used in the Sciences Po article the wording used in his article at that time [13], ie that he had a "controversial gay lifestyle", and for example anti-homophobic articles say it was, but it should not be. It was the beginning of constant accusations of homophobia by XIIIfromTokyo.
You insisted I said antisemitic things, now you are saying I am writing homophobic things! There is nothink homophobic about saying his gay lifestyle is controvesial, on the contrary. See for example this newspaper article saying that his gay lifestyle was taboo and is denouncing the fact it had to be.
Homophobic slurs in the Sciences Po article? XIIIfromTOKYO, Launebee hasn't touched the Sciences Po article since September of this year. You're either referring to the talk page (in which case point me to the discussion/comment) or a very old edit to the article (in which case I'll need a diff please). The only other alternative is that you mean Pantheon-Assas' article or talk (in which case diff again please). Otherwise, the claim of homophobia is a brightline violation of NPA policy and I'm going to ask that you strike it. Mr rnddude (talk) 20:28, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
One resistant during WW2 accused Sciences Po to have been a place of Collaboration during WW2.
With no link, an article from the Independant says that the system in which is Sciences Po is a machine to produce a "blinkered, often arrogant and frequently incompetent ruling freemasonry".
XIII mixed these things, as such:
Copy/pasted quoting
So now we have to explain that this school is "nazi" and linked to "freemasonry", but was also ruled by a "gay" "junky" who used to hire toyboys.
And could you remove the smileys? The nazi regime and the collaboration is something serious, not a joke! He obviously changes the meaning of the texts: freemasonery obviously means here a "cast", not actual freemasonery. --Launebee (talk) 10:45, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Copy/pasted quoting
As I have already mentioned, when I saw that this school was targeted because it was the lair "nazi" and linked to "freemasonry", but was also ruled by a "gay" "junky" who used to hire toyboys... well. Time for the arbcom to work ? XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 14:27, 30 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The kind of criticism you are talking about is your invention. And If there are so many references, it is because you are denying the serious criticism. --Launebee (talk) 15:20, 30 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Let me remind you that you wrote your opinion about Richard Descoing alleged homosexuality and drug usein the Sciences Po article : "an overdose linked to his controversial gay livestyle" [19]. None of what you wrote a few month ago was backed by the reference your provided back then [20]. I'm just trying to prevent and other accident.XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 19:04, 15 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
THREATS
XIII wants me to stop editing, otherwise he is implying he could create a media turmoil with what he accused me in talk pages. Sometimes in French so that other users cannot understand.
Tu es bien conscient que tout es public, et que n'importe qui peut poster ça sur Twitter […] (avec tout le basard médiatique à prévoir vu certaines expressions utilisées en PDD ) ?
Translation: You are well aware that everything is public, and that anyone can post in on Twitter […] (with all the media fuss to come due to some expression used in talk page (PDD = page de discussion).
These threats are not necessarily directed to me, but I signal that, as EdJohnston pointed out[25], XIII is doing legal threats now, by calling someone - so potentially anyone who disagrees with him - a "criminal".
EdJohnston one contributor clearly wants to harrass other contributors, and went so far as using a lot of SPA in the past ; this week's use of no less than 4 IPs to revert templates saying that this article was written like an advert clearly shows that any method, including criminal ones can be used by this individual, on group of indivudials. […] XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 18:26, 15 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Your reference to 'criminal' behavior above sounds to me like making legal threats. You were previously blocked for edit warring in April 2017 which should have made you aware of the sort of behavior we consider problematic. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 01:23, 16 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
CONSTANT ABUSIVE AND AGRESSIVE LANGUAGE
XIII has very often an abusive language toward me. I have been answering his repetitive personal attacks and repetitive arguments for more than a year, but even if I keep civil, he always turns it into personal attacks. I give just two examples among many.
[…] It is off-topic. We are talking about reputation here, and since the source was in French, I just explained. --Launebee (talk) 14:24, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
[…] You are lying to an other contributor just to try to gain some time. It's relevant because it shows that you know that you are lying when you write this article. XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 14:34, 30 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Example 2: repetitive claim I did a legal threat[27][28]
Because I was discussing the fact saying PA has an racist tradition is libelous, which is not a legal threat according to Wikipedia policy ("A discussion as to whether material is libelous is not a legal threat."[29] He has been reminded it is not a legal threat by other contributors but he continues to claim everywhere I did legal threat.
No it's not […]. Discussing or declaring something to be libelous is not in itself a legal threat. Not a legal threat; "This is libelous". […] Mr rnddude (talk) 11:55, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Copy/pasted quoting
I already had to face legal threat from this contributor, so any administrator has to be aware that it could accur to him or her as well. […] XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 16:02, 30 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
There are many examples.
GENERAL
This attitude does not seem to be new. XIIIfromTokyo has already been blocked in French Wikipedia three days for "personal attacks and insults" and two weeks for "intimidation attempt or harassment". [30]
There already has been requests here, but discussions were blurred in content discussion over Panthéon-Assas University and Sciences Po. Now, PA article has many sources, and Mr rnddude helped resolve the issues, and there has been a consensus on the lead of Sciences Po, with Robminchin helping. But XIII accusations are continuing, and it is becoming worse and worse.
Whatever the content dispute is, XIII is constant me insulting me by asserting or strongly implying that I am linked to antisemitism or neo-nazism.
I request a one-year ban will be decided (and a total ban if he does not apologise).
Purely for the administrative purpose of being able to parse out and read this thread (and hopefully to avoid some serious TLDR) I have removed all of the quotes, replacing them either the relevant diffs or links. I have also removed the silly number of subheaders. I took every effort to not actually remove any content added by Launebee. If someone feels this decision was improper they are welcome to replace it with the original content, which can be found here. Primefac (talk) 18:17, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I kept the subheaders removed, but put back the quotes, because the sentences are to be found inside long texts, so specific quotes are needed. Your version without the quotes is to found here. Thanks for your help. --Launebee (talk) 22:05, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If you want to point out the text, you could use the tq template. The tq template highlights quoted text in green, and looks like this: (text being quoted). This might be a better alternative to hatted boxes. Blackmane (talk) 01:41, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Primefac and Blackmane. Perhaps now is a good compromise, and I hope I will never have again to do this, but if I have to use quotes in the future I will think at the tq templates. I am sorry there are so many examples, but it is because I have been so many times attacked. I added a summary in the beginning, it seems it was needed. --Launebee (talk) 21:35, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
When a user has been advised repeatedly that he is making false accusations, and yet persists in repeating the accusations, we have a problem. The subject of this complaint hasn't made many contributions, but he has exacted long-term abuse against a good faith editor. Frankly, I don't see a convincing reason why we need to retain this editor as a member of our community. Lepricavark (talk) 01:17, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know. I suspect people have been put off by the sheer size of your original post, which far exceeds the usual length. I do hope, however, that a couple of admins would be willing to take a look at this and determine what action should be taken. Lepricavark (talk) 11:15, 23 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@power~enwiki: Thanks for your help. Actually, the summary of my message is more that because of a content dispute, XIII created a discussion on antisemitism and then used my answer to claim antisemitism, and has repeated these claims since last December, that he did the same thing with homophobia, that he has been threatening me several times and is constantly aggressive. The content dispute is not relevant here, whatever it is, it has been ten months that I am repetitively wrongfully accused of these things by this user, even though it is obviously absolutely false. (Note also that this user is the principal writer of the French page of that university, so this is not a reference. XIII is precisely blurring the discussion by talking of what happens in the French page that he wrote, or of the content dispute, but all of that is irrelevant. This is a different subject with a talk page, but that talk page is now filled with personal attacks.) I added a summary in the beginning of the request, thanks for the idea. --Launebee (talk) 21:35, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not an admin, and I don't think any administrative action (other than an formal warning as part of a close here) is necessary at this time. The solution to the personal dispute is to have additional editors on that page; @ARBN19: has previously edited this page a significant amount and possibly could comment. power~enwiki (π, ν) 16:11, 1 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Amire80: Sorry for the delay, but I have a lot of work these days. I can only notice that @Launebee: has failed to provide a single edit where I actually accuse him/her of antisemitism. S/he has clearly been playing with fire on that touchy issue ; What it on purpose ? As anyone can see in this very recent edit, s/he is making a reference to a "strong jewish community" and "racism", but the edit has nothing to do with that : s/he is only removing (again) warning templates. So I think it's only a new strategy to block any serious work on the article.
I have started to collect edits, but the issue is more important than what I have previously thought. Launebee as been asked repeatedly to clarify his/her position toward COI, but has always refused to do so. It's clearly time for him/her to clearly state his/her link with that school. I must insist on that point, because it will be crucial for the remaining of the discussion. XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 19:09, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
As you can see, XIII, not only is not seeing anything wrong in all what he wrote to me during the last 11 months, but is saying that I talk about Jews out of nowhere, once again clearly twisting the facts. As he knows very well, the edit he is referring to was removing a banner that he had included in the penultimate edit, with an ever-lasting accusation of antisemitism (to a university where the Jewish student association is the first association of this university on Facebook!). I obviously used the word "strong" in the sense of important, like in the talk page. Afterwards, he right away created a section [31] in the talk page implying I am a neo-nazi, when I quoted myself to answer again to his accusation, he jumped on the accusation of homophobia (last quotes of the relevant sections of my request). --Launebee (talk) 22:54, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Power~enwiki: Thank you, but I do not understand very well your question. XIII was here saying that I talked about Jews out of nowhere, and I objected that it was an answer to the edit summaries he did right before.
I have better things to do on vacation than to straighten all of this out. The dispute has been going on at the talk page for 18 months and on pages relating to several French universities. The worst diffs (in Talk:Panthéon-Assas_University#Controversies_.3F) are almost a year old and I don't believe they justify a block now. power~enwiki (π, ν) 19:24, 1 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Power~enwiki: Thanks for you time then. You are totally right, the old diffs alone don't justify a block, but it has been continuing meanwhile until now, and the last attacks – when it is implied I am a neo-nazi – are in September, I made the request right afterwards. --Launebee (talk) 22:02, 1 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Launebee, I know you've provided a lot of links and quotes above, but could you provide simple diffs to these last attacks? That would help me to get a handle on this in a reasonable time. Give only the examples that you think imply that you are a neo-nazi. It's not necessary to quote the text, just the diff is fine. TIA Andrewa (talk) 06:24, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Andrewa: OK, sorry! The last attacks are from mid-September, right before I made this request. There were, only in September:
statements strongly implying I am a neonazi [32][33] (message put twice in talk page, and let as such before I removed the second one) He talked a lot about an association I know little of, so, long time ago, I looked at the page, and there were very serious allegations made with no source, I removed them because there was a huge risk of libelous statement, XIII ended up implying everywhere I have a link with or I a from that association.
statement strongly implying I have a bad opinion about the Jewish community [34], even though I just said they are important in that university and provided – once again (because he has been accusing me of those things for very long) – links to show that (and that it explained the anti-Semitic attacks against that university).
statement that I wrote something wrong regarding the homosexuality of somebody [35], even though I provided links to anti-homophobic articles and homosexual community newspapers supporting the very old statement he was twisting.
legal threats (EdJohnson qualified them as such [36]) against someone, but in a context of a dispute I was involved in. [37][38]
It answers it, but not at all well. Others have commented above that your posts are too long to be helpful. We are volunteers here with finite time to waste on your essays. This post does provide the diffs I asked for, but also meanders off into other issues, which I explicitly asked you not to do (and should not have to IMO, if you really want our help please give us a break). See #A valid concern below. Andrewa (talk) 16:00, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It seems that XTokyo consistently writes "Jew/Jews/Jewish" with a lowercase "j". Is that supposed to be some kind of a thinly disguised statement? The correct capitalization of other proper nouns comes across as a loud contrast. Joefromrandb (talk) 01:58, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Joefromrandb: Thanks, I never noticed. Panthéon-Assas has a very important Jewish community - its first student association is the Union des étudiants juifs de France according to Facebook likes and members – (it led to be attacked by far-right groups, and police had to protect the university at some point.) It might then explain why XIIIfromTokyo has a very very long history of removing any content he finds positive regarding Panthéon-Assas University, of removing sources and of severe disruption of the page. [39] Panthéon-Assas is the main page he contributed [40], but mainly to remove sources, using false or off-topic edit summaries etc. Three examples from this month only: [41][42][43] --Launebee (talk) 10:33, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
A valid concern
I looked at the first two diffs provided above (which seemed to be a complete answer to my question, see my response above), and invite others to look at this following diff which the first led me to.
It seems to me that Sad to see that a criminal is using such a method to harrass an other contributors (sic) is completely unacceptable on an article talk page, for several reasons... personal attack and discussing behaviour in the wrong place mainly.
In view of the fact that there are possibly faults on both sides, I suggest that at the very least a stern warning to XIIIfromTOKYO is appropriate, saying that an immediate block will follow any further violations of NPA and/or discussion of behaviour that violates WP:CONDUCTDISPUTE.
This must of course be no idle threat and followed through in need. Their English appears poor but that is no excuse (if we accept that excuse we open a floodgate to ESL pretenders). But keep the warning simple in the light of that possible problem.
Hopefully they will modify their behaviour as a result of this warning, and the other party might review their own contributions too and save us the time of doing so. And if not, we deal with it. Andrewa (talk) 16:00, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Further discussion
Andrewa, you told me above you just wanted the diffs and only them. Sorry again. I give them to you then:[44][45][46][47] (and not directed to me: [48][49])
You can see there is no fault on my side. It is purely free personal attacks.
Launebee, from that reply I am now quite convinced that there is fault on your side too, but do you really want me to look for it?
Then start with the above post. I did not ask for more diffs, I said that you had answered that question, and yet you have further cluttered this discussion with this pointless post. I suggest you carefully read the guideline at wp:IDHT (and the rest of that page) and the essay at wp:boomerang. Note particularly that disruption can be unintentional, but it is still disruptive. You seem to have consistently ignored, or perhaps misunderstood, what I said, and I'll be surprised if I'm the only one you've done this to.
It doesn't say on your user page, but I suspect English is not your first language either, is that correct? Is that part of the problem? Francais, c'est peut-etre mieux pour vous? Andrewa (talk) 18:13, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You told me it was not a good answer, I just tried to give a good one. User:Jingiby thanked me for that post, I thought it was good. I am trying here. I seems I am not used to ANI rules, but you can ask User:Robminchin or User:Mr rnddude, I respect rules in talk pages, and I made no personal attacks like XIII. Regarding here, you did not tell me not to answer, so I did not know, now if you tell me that is the rule, I will do it.
I copy here the text you are refering to (how did you end up on that?):
Copy/pasted quoting
Science Po and Assas are two rival schools in France, and a fierce competition has started a few year ago. It's decribed in this L'Étudiant article (well know French Newspaper dedicated to education) in the following ways[1] :
La compétition ne fait que commencer (the competition has just started)
Droit : Assas et Sciences po en concurrence frontale (law : Assas and Sciences po on a Head-on competition)
chacun des deux établissements va chasser sur les terres de l'autre (each of these schools has started poaching on the other's speciality).
« notre "collège de droit" est au cœur de notre politique d'identification forte » - Louis Vogel, president of assas University (the Law school is the main herald of our PR policy)[50]
extrême rivalité qui règne entre l'IEP parisien et la célèbre fac de droit (extreme rivalty between Science Po and Assas)
I can go on and on, but these schools are big rival in France, and it's not never a surprise when dirty politics start between them.
On FR.Wikipedia, someone speaking on the behalf of the university has already tried in the past to edit the article, so Wikipédia is seen as a media that needsto be edited for the university [51].
We have had to face a SPA on the French Wikipédia for months, whose only goal was to aggressively (words and beheaviour) promote Assas. As you can see, the very same contributor has been doing the same thing here. The individual, or the company, in charge of this very aggressive PR compaign has a very distinctive beheaviour with a few key patterns :
Obsession with the notion of "heir"/"héritière". Even if references explain that the division of the University of Paris was a complexe task, s/he will only use references using this expression.
Obsession with the word Sorbonne, even if this building has never been used by the faculty of law.
Massive use of Eduniversal rankings. That company had to face legal threat from various universities, including the Ministry of education because of it's commercial practices (because selling free products is basically a scam, among other things) [52].
The methods used are also the same : pretending that there is somewhere a consensus in order to revert, trying to have the article protected on his/her version, creating a lot of counterfire (ANI...). It would be very long to summarize everything, so consider reading the talk page or fr:Discussion:Université Panthéon-Assas, there are a lot of links and in depth explanation.
Revert because there is a so called "consensus" somewhere, feigning of "taking into account" an other contributor's remarks, revering to his/her version because of a lack of concensus
Long story short. The same contributor has tried the same strategy on FR and EN, with the same goal. It was carefully thought before starting the campaign, as the 2 accounts have been created on the very same day, just a few minutes appart, and have refrained from editing on an other Wikipédia. Still, that falls under the definition of Sock puppetry, especially if you include the SPAs and IPs used to back these actions.
17 September 2016. It was not put back after that, because obviously having 46 out of 60 references devoting to the criticism section if perfectly fine and neutral, especially when these references allow to deal with nazis, freemassonery, homosexuality, drugs, and prostitures[79].
And for Assas ? Well, not always removing POV dispute templates. Multiple use of sock puppet, and IPs
Please not that the last 20 (!) templates removal by Launebee were done as more that 20 solid references were waiting on the talk page, as the university had to deal by some controversies during the last decades (only to be faced by legal threat if any of these reached the main page)[80].
Other contributors have also tried to put it back, but without any success.
It seems that XIII is talking about the past, nothing here seems recent. XIII seems to be saying that all the edits done in opposition to his edits are one big plot from a French university president, and – since he wrote this after my request – it would explain why he constantly threatens me and accuses me of anti-Semitism and homophobia, use abusive language, etc. XIII only give parts of talks, not up-to-date comments, and from that explains that there is one big plot against his point of view.
He mostly gives links in French, not related to me, so that the administrators cannot understand. But most of it is false translation. I would take only the two first links to prove it:
"« « notre "collège de droit" est au cœur de notre politique d'identification forte » - Louis Vogel, president of assas University (the Law school is the main herald of our PR policy)" XIII is creating a confusion between the law school as a faculty or the law school as a special degree within a law faculty (see Law schools in France, here Vogel is talking about the latter ("collège de droit"), not at all his university
XIII’s claim that someone claimed to be paid by PA in this edit [83] is simply false. The edit summary means nothing in French, and the IP history shows he has edited another article (within the only three edits) [84].
As for the idea that every editor on the French wikipedia, would be one editor, it is just ridiculous. For example, the edit history of the second editor he is refering to had been edit-warring with Droas82 [85], they are clearly not the same editor. This plot theory makes no sense, and even if it were true, I do not see the point.
It is not worth inspecting everything but all of that seems very untrue.
Regarding what’s left in English – very little –,
On the SP lead, there was a consensus: I voted "strongly oppose" to that consensus (with a lengthy explanation, and other users pushing in the beginning for cherry-picking etc.) but I protected that consensus anyway, and asked to protect the page to protect that consensus anyway. You can see there are now civil talks, and issues are resolved thanks to Robminchin.
On PA page, long has been going on since one year and half. There was indeed huge problems with the page, but everyone can verify there has thorough discussion with Mr Nurdule, an third independant user who said in the beginning that there was huge issues, but then we resolved those issues together, in spite of the personal attacks of XIII.
On the other French universities webpages, stating similar things because the sources are clear, XIII says nothing.
It is just ridiculous to say because templates were needed on one page, and not on the other one, that it would mean something beyond than that.
I edit a lot on Parisian universities, which are all linked to the Sorbonne, but he summarizes it by "Obsession with the word Sorbonne". You find the word "heir" or "inheritor" on all the pages of the inheritors of the Sorbonne, but it would be a plot focused on Panthéon-Assas. Etc. Etc. I think he has on obsession on the Sorbonne. And XIII does not seem to understand that if many users say the same thing, perhaps it is because that thing is right.
Who would trust someone who has blatantly made false accusations of antisemitism, homophobia, made legal threats, others threats and personal attacks? Everybody can see that I talk, I do a lot of RfC, I use sources, in short I am a good faith editor. The only thing true is that I have been driven once into an edit-warring and I already have been sanctioned for this. But with all these despicable personal attacks on anti-Semitism and homophobia, the threats, the aggressive language toward me, I think I have been more than patient with XIIIfromTokyo, by never answering in an uncivil manner to his attacks.
Finally, I would use wp:boomerang on the COI. XIII has clearly got one regarding SP, and it seems it is why he focuses that much on these two institutions he considers "rivals". The three universities he has links with have huge links with SP: Rennes 2 is deeply linked to Sciences Po Rennes (same group as Sciences Po)[86][87] (project of merger), Waseda too[88][89] (only link in France), Tokyo too[90][91]. So he considers SP an ally of his universities , and tries to do whatever he can to put false statement on what he considers a big rival of the ally of his university, referring to obscure and old article of 2009, not referring to the law school as law faculty but law school as a special degree ((see Law schools in France). And since it is a "rival" according to him, he considers there is a big plot in favor of PA, even though the accounts he is referring to seems to have edit-warring between them too, and are not saying what he wants them to say according to his false translations.
You can see, in English, this month only, I gave three edits on PA (its "rival" he thinks), with clearly false or off-topic edit summaries: [92][93][94].
Launebee, I think that at least part of the problem is that your English is no better than my French, and I would not presume to edit articles in French Wikipedia at all, let alone controversial ones. You do not seem to understand my posts at all.
So I strongly suggest that you refrain from editing controversial articles in English Wikipedia. Attempt discussion on the article talk pages by all means. But let someone else fix the articles themselves. And be very wary of accusing others of mistranslation. You simply do not have the skills to assess this. Question the translation on the talk page if it needs questioning, and again let others fix it. If it needs fixing, in time they will.
Nobody else has commented on my assessment of XIIIfromTOKYO's behaviour (which was supposed to be the topic of #A valid concern above) and I am reluctant to act unilaterally, but it still seems an open-and-close case of an unacceptable edit to me.
Unless there is support for the proposed stern warning (or worse) to XIIIfromTOKYO, I think this is best closed as no trouble found. The content disputes belong elsewhere, as do the disputes on French Wikipedia. I referred to French Wikipedia only because I thought it important to recognise that neither of you is operating from a zero base, in that there's significant discussion on the French Wikipedia. Andrewa (talk) 11:55, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
My request was not about the content dispute, and not about the French Wikipedia. I was just answering. It was about the legal threats you noticed in #A valid concern, and the repetitive accusation of antisemitism and homophobia.
There are no legal threats you noticed in #A valid concern. None whatsoever. Perhaps unintentionally this is another irrelevant sidetrack. Someone else may wish to unravel this, but I think we all have better things to do. Andrewa (talk) 19:52, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Launebee's COI
Sorry for the delay, but I'm still a bit busy IRL. As far as I can see, @Launebee: has again refused to disclose any COI with PA university (you have read what's on the French Wikipédia, so you might realize that I have found a few interesting things ).
So let me ask it again, because that's clearly a point that you have purposely concealed until now. And a point that is crucial for the understandings of you 2 years campaign of edits. What link do you have (or did you have) with PA University.
Thank you XIIIfromTOKYO, and yes, that does explain a lot.
But that does not excuse your own behaviour. I am not going to unilaterally block you for this edit, and it's a bit stale now anyway. But I will certainly support a block if there are any further occurrences of personal attacks, or failure to follow proper procedures in dealing with attacks on yourself.
I know that it's hard at times, especially as ANI has sometimes been ineffective in the past. That is why I am giving it some time myself now. If you need help with any behavioural issues, please feel free to ask for help on my talk page, or to email me. Andrewa (talk) 20:09, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Also, XIIIfromTOKYO, it is not sufficient to disclose your COI on your French Wikipedia user page. If you are involved in edits or discussions that involve your COI, you must disclose it here, because not all of us read French! I'm sorry if the policy does not make that clear and will follow that up. Andrewa (talk) 20:24, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
My affiliations have all been added[95], as they have been for years on the French Wikipédia.
About the the edit you are pointing out, as you can read on the previous edit, a swarm of IPs have targeted my edits, in order to systematically revert my edits. It qualifies as Harassment, which is considered as a crime in France. So a breach of the point 4 of the terms of use. I'm not saying that Launebee personally did it, because I can't rull out that s/he is has been working with a larger group and/or company (because creating 2 accounts to target 2 version of Wikipedia clearly indicates that some level of organisation and/or experience is involved : these actions were carefly planed).
Thank you, XIIIfromTOKYO. I feel I must ask directly, do you have any other COI with respect to any French university or law school? And, as the term affiliation is yours (you created the User University of Rennes 2 template for example, and are currently the only one using it) what exactly is your affiliation with those that you list? Student, staff member, past student... what? Andrewa (talk) 19:31, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If an admin asks for a disclosure, I will answer, no problem. And the idea of a big plot linked with big money interests is not serious and is based on nothing serious, as I proved it above.
XIII has clearly got a COI regarding SP, and it seems it is why he focuses that much on these two institutions he considers "rivals". The three universities he has links with have huge links with SP: Rennes 2 is deeply linked to Sciences Po Rennes (same group as Sciences Po)[96][97] (project of merger), Waseda too[98][99] (only link in France), Tokyo too[100][101]. So he considers SP an ally of his universities , and tries to do whatever he can to put false statement on what he considers a big rival of the ally of his university, referring to obscure and old article of 2009, not referring to the law school as law faculty but law school as a special degree ((see Law schools in France). And since it is a "rival" according to him, he considers there is a big plot in favor of PA, even though the accounts he is referring to seems to have edit-warring between them too, and are not saying what he wants them to say according to his false translations.
You can see, in English, this month only, I gave three edits on PA (its "rival" he thinks), with clearly false or off-topic edit summaries: [102][103][104].
If an admin asks for a disclosure, I will answer, no problem.Done. It should not be necessary to ask, let alone necessary for it to be an admin that asks, but that was easily solved. Andrewa (talk) 20:36, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
EdJohnston pointed out on 16 September[105] that XIII is doing legal threats, by calling someone a "criminal" on his talk page [106]. After a warning on edit-warring, since XIII continued, EdJohnston blocked XIII for three days.
XIII used the same language in an article talk page [107]. Andrewa wrote [108] that it "is completely unacceptable on an article talk page" (2 October)
Yet, here, on the 4 October, XIII is once again refering to a "crime" according to French law [109].
I'm not convinced this is a legal threat as we use the term here. It may be seen as such on French Wikipedia, but our policy reads in part Rather than immediately blocking users who post apparent threats, administrators should first seek to clarify the user's intention.
But I think there's a case for blocking you both. Neither of you should be editing the articles concerned. You are both francophones, and your English is just not good enough to do so. You do not understand English Wikipedia policies and guidelines, which are of course written in English. Ideally, you would both agree to a topic ban on these and related articles. We do not have the authority here to impose a topic ban, but we should consider a block for persistent disruption (perhaps unintentional, but we do not need to decide that, it's still disruption). Andrewa (talk) 02:41, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I quote you what Jytdog wrote about my work on SP article [110]: "I looked at this article as it stands now and as it stood before Launebee started working on it back in July (see this version. Like too many of our articles about universities, the former article was a cesspool of promotion - not a WP article at all, but a brochure for Sciences Po".
Well, since I've been pinged here twice now, I'll stop by to write a small comment. On the topic of Jytdog's comment, I'll finish the whole quote; as it stands now the article is still full of unsourced promotional content that belongs on the Sciences Po website (i.e. the unsourced content about the campuses and the entirely unsourced section about notable people). In other words, limited improvement on the whole. I personally don't think that either editor is here to intentionally cause problems, rather, that some disputes have lead to the formation of problems. There are a number of ways to rectify this, each with their pros and cons. 1. An IBAN - pros; will prevent the issues of civility and harrassment (IP's targeting XIII can be dealt with individually) / cons; won't prevent disruption, could have detrimental effects on articles. 2. A TBAN - pros; will prevent disruption to the articles / cons; won't impact on personal issues between the two editors, won't prevent disruption within the project and will leave both editors feeling punished. or 3. A dual PBAN from Pantheon-Assas and Sciences Po - pros; is limited in scope, targeted to the locus of the dispute, and can be revisited after some set period / cons; as with a TBAN disruption may spread and still feels like punishment (just less severe). In any case, it is up to the community to decide what to do. Any of these restrictions can be placed and enforced here on one or both editors - e.g. a two-way no fault IBAN. It's a matter of somebody proposing a course of action. On this task though, I must say, not me. Having interacted with both editors, I get both editors frustrations and the resultant problems they cause. Launebee is actively trying to expand and improve the Pantheon-Assas article. XIII notices problems cropping up in these edits and wholly undoes them. This then leads to back and forth arguments on the article talk and edit-warring in the article. Like I've said before, this is a zero sum game. Mr rnddude (talk) 10:43, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, Jytdog's sentence you quote was in favour of my point, which was that the Sciences Po article needed more improvement. It was one year ago, and SP alumni wanted to do what User:Robminchin called cherry-picking and put the sentence Sciences Po is widely considered to be one of Europe's most prestigious academic institutions and was ranked 4th globally in politics and international studies by the QS World University Subjects Rankings 2017. So, Jytdog was totally in favour of my point. I did a RfC, and as you can see, there was a consensus against such a sentence, which was totally my point and Jytdog's. DGG, Maproom, North8000 and later User:Robminchin clearly stated how my point was reasonable. Meanwhile, there has been a lot of improvement. I clearly helped the page to be improved a lot.
Blocks and bans are not about punishment. They are about protecting the encyclopedia, and I see no other way forward. We have wasted more than enough time on these two editors. Their disruption of the encyclopedia must stop. If they will not agree to stop, and neither shows any inclination to do so, then unfortunately they must be stopped by the tools available.
I expect that they will both claim not to understand why this is being considered. Their understanding is not an issue. Perhaps their (it seems very) limited English is the problem, or perhaps they are just playing wp:IDHT. I can't tell, but it doesn't matter, either way. We are here to build an encyclopedia, and they are both hindering that task.
I'm going to pour another glass of good Australian Pinot Grigio and see if I can come up with a specific proposal, maybe in the morning, or maybe tomorrow night (Hobbys Yards time). But very interested in any other proposals. Andrewa (talk) 11:39, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I understand your point about not being punishment, and that you did not like the fact I wrote much here in ANI. In another hand, except one edit-warring once, there is no example of disruption from my part of articles, or personal attacks in talk pages etc. On SP page, today again, an edit was made against the consensus. In talk pages and articles, I clearly improve articles, like Jytdog said, and in talk pages, I clearly follow the rules, like the consensus on SP, I help protecting, in spite of the fact I was "strongly opposed" to the current version. Whereas I gave, for September only, three examples of diffs where XIII has been disruptive using false or off-topic edit summaries and deleting source. --Launebee (talk) 14:56, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Again, this simply fails to address the issues, and shows that you have no intention of doing so.
The problem is not that you wrote much here in ANI. It's that what you wrote did not address the question, or even appear to understand it.
Nor is it alleged by anyone that all of your work is unproductive. That's not the point at all. You've said this before, and nobody is arguing with it. But that is not the problem. Andrewa (talk) 15:37, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
What I said is that there has not been any disruption from my part on articles, except the edit-warring with the block afterwards. If you can show one disruption of PA page, please tell me.
The problem with XIIIfromTOKYO is I think generally accepted, and you do not need to further clutter this page with repeating your evidence. The claim that there has not been any disruption from my part on articles, except the edit-warring with the block afterwards. If you can show one disruption of PA page, please tell me (emphasis removed) is itself disruptive, perhaps unintentionally, as is explained in #To summarise again below. Andrewa (talk) 07:00, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
To summarise again
I remain of the opinion that there is fault on both sides. That does not necessarily mean that I blame either or suggest any lack of good faith on either part. It simply means that, for whatever reason, both editors are damaging Wikipedia, and showing no sign of changing their behaviour so that this would cease. Neither appears to have sufficient competence in English to productively work on the controversial articles involved, or even to understand why they should take a step back from them.
See #A valid concern and #Suggested close above. Neither of them seem to get it. Whether this is because of language difficulties we do not need to decide. It is still disruptive, and we have better things to do.
Possible remedies were well analysed IMO at #New legal threat by XIIIfromTokyo above, with the one proviso that I made in the discussion there... I'm afraid it's not important that one may feel unjustly punished, although obviously it would be good to avoid that.
This is not about justice or punishment. It's about what is best for Wikipedia. The disruption must stop.
(Please see above my answer on the fact there has been no disruption from my part in articles, and many from XIII.) power~enwiki wrote above, "The solution to the personal dispute is to have additional editors on that page, @ARBN19: has previously edited this page a significant amount and possibly could comment". Perhaps he could hear us to comment if he sees any disruption from me on PA page? --Launebee (talk) 23:55, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think we just have to accept that you and I disagree on whether or not your behaviour is disruptive. You say there has been no disruption from my part in articles (my emphasis) when the issue is disruption generally, not just in articles, so again it seems that for whatever reason you simply fail to understand. wp:IDHT is a section of wp:disruptive editing, of course.
Strongly agree that the solution to the personal dispute is to have additional editors on that page, and as I pointed out there are already several others active, including but not only power~enwiki. I looked at the Panthéon-Assas University article some time ago to see whether perhaps it was so poorly written and referenced that it should be stubified, but nothing could be further from the truth. So there is no need for either you or XIIIfromTokyo to edit there.
And your involvement there is damaging to Wikipedia, because it carries a significant risk of discouraging these other editors. Andrewa (talk) 03:11, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Please stop pinging me on this thread. WP:IDHT to read all this drama. If there's no chance of a peaceful resolution, I recommend both Launebee and XIIIFromTokyo be TBAN-ed from pages on French universities to prevent disruption to the encyclopedia. power~enwiki (π, ν) 14:38, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Andrewa, so we agree the article is in good shape. You can see its state before I worked on it: [115]. Like other articles I worked on, there are now much more references and material. Perhaps you would agree there are two different topics in this dispute.
On content, it needs to move forward indeed. So I would agree, if XIII is banned to edit PA page, to stop editing the PA article when there is a disagreement in talk page, and to ask systematically for a third opinion before editing if it is the case. There is no need to ban me, because I may add updates or non controversial content, but I won't be adding something new (from now on) if there is a two-way disagreement in talk page and there has been no third opinion. Note that the warring is only on PA.
The second topic is the personal attacks, and I would request a separate answer. I understand on content a third opinion is needed, as you both say, but on personal attacks and repetitive false accusations (antisemitism, homophobia, plot, etc.), XIII needs to know that it is not acceptable. And I never committed such attacks. This should be answered separately with a block. If XIII strikes all his attacks and threats, or states that that I have never said anything wrong about Jews or homosexuals, that I am not part of a plot, and that I never did anything "criminal", however, it means he would have understood, and a warning may be sufficient.
No, you need to agree not to edit that article at all, whether or not there is a similar agreement from the other party or other action regarding them. There is no reason to give you the decision as to what is controversial. To do so makes your undertaking meaningless, and so is no resolution.
The proposal was only if the issue is not resolved. Note also that we are only talking about the PA page, not all French universities, there has been no dispute on most of those university pages, and you are not saying that all my work has been disruptive.
Regarding the PA, you can see I clearly improved the article. "Controversial" means here that somebody disagrees. If somebody disagrees, I do not edit. But it is the benefit of Wikipedia if I can update or add sources (there are still sections that need sources), like in other articles improved by me, and where nobody complained.
Whether it was a proposal or a proposed proposal or a proposal contingent on some other event, I think the intent is clear and I support it.
Your uncontroversial edits are appreciated. But you should not now be editing these articles at all. If you can provide these missing sources, just describe them (linking if they are online of course) on the article talk page, for example at the section Talk:Panthéon-Assas University#Sources to be added which I just created. They can be discussed there in need, but if they're online and good they'll just be checked and added. Sources supporting content can be in any language; If they are in French then there are several editors here who are quite capable of reading them. Andrewa (talk) 05:07, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I have been asked [116] to give my opinion regarding Launebee's work on Pantheon-Assas page. It seems very helpful to me. However, XTokyo's recent edits on Pantheon-Assas page appears to have been quite troublesome. Besides, the long-term personal attacks quoted in the request here are indeed concerning. Therefore I:
My input at the last ANI recommended TBANS for both editors, from editing about French academic institutions. That is still what I think. Jytdog (talk) 20:56, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I just add this for completeness, as I said above that I'd look at clarifying the COI guideline to make it clear that disclosure of COI on another language Wikipedia is not acceptable, but rather that disclosure must be done on English Wikipedia if it affects articles on English Wikipedia.
It seems to me that it's already clear enough, see Wikipedia:Conflict of interest#How to disclose a COI. The problem seems to be that the user concerned had either not read or had not understood the guideline (and in any case they seem to be denying COI), and if it's lack of understanding this is because their English is poor. And we can't do anything about either of those problems by improving the guideline.
This is a request for opinions about a case of potential long-term abuse of Wikipedia:Reference desk. The reference desks are relatively relaxed about enforcing Wikipedia policies, which is understandable. However, the user in question here has been posting repetitively for the past one year borderline highly contentious open-ended questions with mostly just one line (there are so many of them, you can literally just pick any posts from the log). While this kind of conduct is against some of the principles of the reference desk (such as we are not a substitute for actually doing any original research required, or as a free source of ideas.), there doesn't seem to be a policy that regulates these kinds of usage.
First NOTHERE is not policy. Secondly, the first line of the reference desk remit is: "The Wikipedia reference desk works like a library reference desk. Ask a question here and Wikipedia volunteers will try to answer it." - the reference desk is not here *solely* to enable 'building an encyclopedia' it is a reference desk in order to direct people to references either on-site or off-site. Its a given that the reference desk will be answering questions from non-wikipedians. If the goal is to ban people who ask contentious questions - then you should also be banning all the editors who either given non-answers or treat it as a talking shop. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:00, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Causes of sexual violence If we have an article on it, its a valid question. The correct response is 'Here are some references from our closest article on the subject' and close the request as answered. I should also point out the last line of WP:FORUM #4 actually refers you to the reference desk to ask questions. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:45, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
A couple of months ago, questions were being raised about Uncle Dan as to whether he might be a sock of a banned user. Now that he's blocked, maybe it doesn't matter. But he did seem to raise a lot of debate-worthy questions. ←Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→ 14:41, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
And herein lies the problem. Regular ref desk editors treat the reference desk as a forum for debate and discussion, which is not what it is meant to be used for. Blocking someone who is merely conforming to the standard practice at the ref desk just because you don't like the questions they are asking is ridiculous. Provide refs for the question asked, close question. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:03, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Possibly a block was needed, but NOTHERE is certainly the wrong reason. We can't set a precedent that it is somehow against policy to only particpate at the ref desks, and never edit the mainspace. That is simply not true. I don't know what Ritchie's intentions were - maybe this was really because of disruption of the ref desks - but it sure sounds (here and in the block log and in the comments on the user's talk page) like the rationale boils down to "doesn't edit the mainspace". Frankly, I don't think I want him near the mainspace. The actual problem appears to be the claim that he's disrupting the ref desks with lots and lots of dumb and or obnoxious and/or trolling questions, and has ignored previous requests to rein it in. If that's what's happening then I have no problem with a block. But as the blocking admin, Ritchie needs to at least confirm that he's reviewed the questions, believes they're disruptive, and then clarify the block so the blocked editor and the admins reviewing the unblock request are all on the same page. Right now, it appears a reviewing admin is asking whether or not he plans to start editing articles. The actual thing that needs to be addressed is, is he disrupting the ref desks? And if so, is he going to stop? --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:02, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
In my opinion, he was disrupting the reference desks with questions that appeared to be intended to cause controversy. It is true that some regular editors treat the reference desks as a forum for debate and discussion, but most of the questions that are asked and answered at least can be seen as requests for answers, rather than just efforts to cause controversy. He was a problematic editor. It is true that the reference desks have a problematicity problem. I think that he needed blocking, but since he was blocked for a reason that isn't applicable to what he was doing, I would suggest that he be unblocked for now and given another chance, and, if he continues to ask disruptive questions, he can be either blocked again or topic-banned from the reference desks. That is my suggestion. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:10, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Have to agree with User:Floquenbeam here-the criteria for the block should be that the posts they are making are disruptive or trolling the reference desk,not just that they're only posting to the reference desk. Lemon martini (talk) 23:53, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I would support the request. I found recently impossible to discuss these issues with Fram, since I did not get an impression they listen to what I say, but if there is a user who could communicate with them it would be very useful to provide input and move the discussion forward.--Ymblanter (talk) 11:37, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I listen. I don't blindly accept. Don't confuse the two. Anyway, I started an RfC, so obviously more input is welcome. It would be rather stupid to start an RfC if I didn't want more input. Another discussion where Mike Peel and Ymblanter (and a few others) happen to disagree with me was posted by me to WP:AN, WP:VPPR, WP:CENT and WP:BON. Many editors in that discussion have no problem communicating with me and vice versa, and that discussion is nicely moving forward, though perhaps not in the direction Ymblanter prefers. The RfC here is whether it is best to continue with the newish Wikidata-driven version of the template for Unesco World Heritage sites, or revert to the earlier local version (which I have now revived and improved in a new template to help the discussion forward). I.e. whether using Wikidata outweighs the problems noted on the template talk page (in the RfC, and in the discussions before). A comparison between the old and new template can be made at e.g. the old and new version of Park Güell. The new template is still being developed (and the /doc is not up to date yet), but as far as I know everything the Wikidata version did, plus some new things, are easily possible already. Fram (talk) 11:48, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I was trying to keep this as a neutral request. I won't post my point of view here, it's on the template talk page. *Please* can someone other than me and Fram provide input there? Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 23:09, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Premature closure
The discussion has been prematurely closed by @Francis Schonken: as WP:SNOW. The discussion was still ongoing, and was only recently started, and it is not clear that there is SNOW consensus here. Francis is also not an uninvolved/neutral editor in this case (see his recent contributions to Wikidata discussions). Please can someone review this closure, and ideally reverse it? Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 11:48, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Follow-up: the RfC has been reopened. For clarity: I have no problem with that. I tried to close before an obvious elephant would enter the room. Fram was careful to keep that elephant out of the room two days before I implemented my SNOW close. After reopening the RfC, the elephant immediately entered the room (yeah, I had seen that coming). The so-called elephant is a behavioural issue, which imho should better be treated outside a content-related RfC. The behavioural issue is Mike Peel mass-deleting Wikipedia-defined parameter content from Wikipedia's mainspace with the obvious aim of creating a fait accompli, thus having made a successful outcome of the RfC considerably more complicated to implement (hundreds of pages would need a revert to make the former version of the template display useful content). There was no consensus whatsoever for these content deletion proceedings. Now that this behavioural "elephant" is part of the RfC, I think the RfC should be suspended or closed (its outcome is obvious), so that the behavioural component can be given a proper treatment (for instance here: I have no prejudice on how the community wants that to turn out). --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:57, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The aim here was not to have a fait accompli. I was not deleting content, I was changing it so that the Wikidata values were being used instead, and cleaning up the information at the same time. But we should talk about this on the talk page of the template, not here, and I am working on a draft RfC to see what the consensus is here for the future. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 14:51, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
User:Cathry and casting aspersions
I recently blocked User:Cathry for one week for edit-warring and spreading fringe theories without reliable sources. She had two unblock requests declined. She is obviously unhappy, and casts aspersions that I was off-wiki approached by someone from the Russian Wikipedia (where, as far as I can see, she is indefblocked) and asked to block her account (see e.g. [118]). In fact, I was not approached by anybody, I blocked her on the basis of my own judgement, and for ten years which I am around I always consistently defended transparency in the decision making. Therefore I consider this a personal attack, though I understand that some users may view it differently (and even call it childish, as it recently happened on a different occasion). Would an administrator be willing to have a look please? Thanks.--Ymblanter (talk) 11:36, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not so sure about the edit warring block but not so much that I would suggest overturning it. She certainly earned the extended block with her talk page activity. I've just closed two SPIs that were opened related to this, and I think it's pretty clear that the user spewing Russian all over their talk page is not the same well-Englished user as the Australian IP(s). However, IP's already received an NPA block and is dancing very close to earning a longer one. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 13:38, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like original block was fine. But if the extension was for block evasion as the 120.17.83.90 IP why is the extension still in place when the SPI showed they are not the same person? PackMecEng (talk) 14:20, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It was imposed by @WJBscribe: per WP:DUCK. Indeed, shit happens, and it looks now, when they both had a chance for a long rant, that the IP is different from the user. Still, I maintain that I had no communication with anybody on the Russian Wikipedia (or, in fact, with anybody at all) contrary to what the user says.--Ymblanter (talk) 14:24, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It does seem that the IP has a much better command of English than Cathry has. I've no doubt that the IP is a sockpuppet of some editor, but I rather doubt that it's Cathry. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:25, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Drmies: Happy to defer to you on this one - no objection from me to undoing the extension if review and consideration of fuller evidence suggests my instincts were mistaken. WJBscribe(talk)22:56, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Actually since we are discussing this block, in my view this user is entirely disruptive and time-sucking when they edit about health, and I would like to propose that they be TBANed from health content.
I was unaware of their activity at ru-WP until they brought it up just now. Looking there, here is their block log. It is no wonder they are now indeffed there. This person does not play well with others.
Looking at their block log here in en-WP, they were blocked in february for edit warring. I brought that case here for edit warring bad content into the Herbalism article against four other editors
Looking at User_talk:Cathry/Archive_1, you see warning after warning for bad editing on content about health. The articles where they were disruptive include Herbalism, Phytochemical, Squalene (the main phyto-chemical in shark liver oil and also present in olive oil), Banana, Green tea.
What led to their current block is their editing at Rheumatoid arthritis in support of the rather rabid IP who says they are from Australia who piped up on Cathry's talk page. What is going on with the IP, is that they are committed to the The Truth that Epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG, the phyto-chemical people focus on when they talk about health benefits of green tea) is a Wonder Drug Suppressed By The Pharmaceutical Industry. (If you have a look at the talk page of Talk:Epigallocatechin gallate you will see why I was about to bring an AE case against the IP for battering the hell out of that talk page) What Cathry did, was jump in to "help" the IP:
diff and edit-warring restored here adding this half-garble and scare quotes.
jumping to the arthritis article and adding this content promoting EGCG/green tea
further back here was their edit to Squalene, adding a bunch of hype about this phytochemical with an edit note it is satisfies MEDRS and NPOV while they are actually adding primary sources along with some good ones.
This is what they do when they edit about health - I just groan when I see their name pop up on my watch list, as it is inevitably more hyping of the appeal to nature for health claims with marketing content like what comes from dietary supplement marketers, citing primary sources and pushing reviews farther than they go. This person is not here to build an encyclopedia, with respect to health. And their combative unblock requests and agreement with the IP on the pharma shill conspiracy theory just shows that more. Jytdog (talk) 21:36, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Drmies: Yes, I know, I said as much up thread, so my inclination to support an indef block has nothing to do with their supposed socking. I simply don't think that the editor has anything positive to offer Wikipedia, and is a net negative. I see no reason to allow them to continue to edit. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:38, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That is true, Drmies, but stuff from Cathry like this and this (you will have to use your friend google translate) and this and this in response to Ymblanter are just personalizing and icky. And here they said "thank you" in response to our IP's screeds (an exact continuation of what we've been putting up with at the EGCG article). And Cathry thanked the IP and spun more conspiracy theorizing here. And here Cathry writes: In fact, I'm already tired of fighting your bureaucracy. ...Anyway, paid participants can jump - I have no desire to edit here anymore. No one interferes in their whitewashing and destroying of content. which is just repeating the pharma shill gambit in the face of their poor quality phytochemical-hyping edits getting rejected consistently.
I just came upon this. Although I agree that the IP is clearly a different user, I'm also inclined to agree with the comments about Cathry being a net negative here. I've been having some pretty unpleasant interactions with Cathry at GMO pages – where there are DS in place from the ArbCom GMO case. When they recently showed up at Talk:Genetically modified organism, I tried very hard to be friendly to them: [119], [120]. But shortly later, at Talk:Glyphosate, they became very IDHT and battlegroundy: [121], [122], [123], [124], [125], [126], [127]. Please note in particular the personalization of the discussion and the resistance to engaging with what I actually said, leading in the last diff to the mocking repetition of what I had said earlier. Take that with their own user talkpage comments noted above, and I'm seeing a lot of NOTHERE. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:08, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I have to agree some admins commenting that an indef is likely for NOTHERE, it's just a question of when. Some of the edits drift into GMOs, others are more on health topics. A health topic ban could be an immediate next step, but this looks like a SageRad-like case where it might save the community and Cathry grief by indeffing sooner than later due to advocacy and battleground mentality. It does look like the IP block was a mix-up though. Kingofaces43 (talk) 00:43, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
A distinction that I would make is that SageRad was an intelligent and self-aware editor who just did not accept how Wikipedia does things, whereas Cathry (even when one allows for language issues) appears to be much less competent. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:26, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
A large part of Cathry's most-edited pages are Ukraine-related articles. Is there any evidence that they have been disruptive in this area? If not, with only 2 blocks in their history, a subject-area restriction seems more appropriate than an indef block.Dialectric (talk) 19:49, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I would be OK with a restriction like that, but it would have to be awfully broad. I'm not sure than an Ukraine is allowed but everything else is off-limits ban would be workable. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:26, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Last week I received a talk page message asking for my attention to Steve Down (based, apparently, on my having made a gnoming edit there). What I see there is disconcerting. I can't tell if this is an effort by one side to whitewash negative material out of the article, or by the other side to overload the article with negative information. My concern is that it is both, leaving no neutral party working on the page. Since I was called into it by one of the participants (and did some cleanup of clearly excessive copying and pasting of court documents), I think some completely uninvolved eyes are needed on this. Cheers! bd2412T17:45, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I have no idea who User:Vote (X) for Change might be, never having heard of that editor before, and my edit to Jimbo's talk page was the first time that I have ever posted there. Once again, if you really looked at my contributions, rather than jumping to conclusions and lying about having done so, you would see that this is true. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 21:18, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I have removed TQP's bogus closure per the thread below. If an admin thinks this is out-of-process, I'll accept that decision, but I think it would be appropriate for the IP's complaint to be addressed by someone with a little more credibility than this thread's original closer. Lepricavark (talk) 23:58, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi: Second this request. I've compared this IP user to your "relevant" page and I don't even see a connection. Vote (X) appears to be a serial IP-hopper easily recognizable by their distinct behavior. I can't even see where you're drawing any sort of similarities. To me, this is a static IP who doesn't go near (X)'s stomping grounds, with a clean block log and no apparent indicators of bad faith. Either you're seeing something the rest of us aren't seeing, in which case you need to tell us now, or you owe the IP an apology. Swarm♠01:15, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think the suspicion is from the combination of circumstantial evidence, ranges from advocacy-like comment on Jimbo's talk page (the focal point of this report), high recent activity in WP:AN/I, previously expressing displeasure over an administrator, and finally overlapping with IP range of Vote (X) as an IP from London with Virgin Media. I wouldn't blame anyone for the initial false alarm, but a deeper look into the contribution history would seem to suggest it's a different person. Alex ShihTalk05:00, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I waited until User:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi had had a chance to post here before replying, but it is now beyond the "later this afternoon" when I expected a reply according the post below. None of the things that you identify in any way suggest that I might be a sockpuppet of that other user. Making one post at Jimbo's talk page that makes a perfectly valid point does not, I certainly don't have high activity at WP:AN/I, having contributed significantly to just one other thread recently where everyone except one agreed with me, my expression of displeasure about an admin nine months ago was also universally agreed with (and what regular Wikipedia editor hasn't felt displeasure about an admin at some point), and there are many hundreds of thousands of Virgin Media customers in London, let alone outside London where I am. None of this in any way approaches the sort of evidence that should lead to my edits being reverted as vandalism. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 20:36, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Will the prisoner at the bar please stand Well. This seems, as EEng says, to have gone somewaht spectacularly Pete Tong over night. I have no idea what TQP was thinking of by getting so personally attached to the scenario, but the consequence was certainly inevitable. As for me- I must say in advance that I won't be able to get that involved until later this afternoon (UTC), but just a quickie for now. Firstly and fulsomely an apology is definitely owed to the IP if they are not and have no connection with Vote X. This is not a non-apology I hasten to add- more of a placeholder. On that, I would just like to take us back to where this began (Jimbo's talk, as someone pointed out). You see, if this IP isn't VXfC (and Alex Shih pretty cogently sums up my thought proceses on how it could be- especially combined with the fact that it is- sorry Swarm you're wrong on this- a dynamic IP rather than static, which effectively ticks all the Vote X boxes), then they rather unluckilly chose to defend them. See; my attention was originally drawn to Special:Contributions/88.104.33.149 ([129]) on JW's talk, as VXfC, and it was {incidentally on a side note you might want to compare User:Abnormallylong, who has interactions with a very similar IP with some crossover). As 88. says themselves, they were responding to that IPs treatment in their original complaint to JW. Special:Contributions/88.104.33.149 IP is also VXfC and is clearly related to Abnormallylong; I concluded that the Herts IP (who has started this thread) was not distinct. Incidentally, Paul August could you please not try and rush prople along just because you think they've had enough time? I've only just bloody woken up! And now I'm Right Away- back in a few hours. — fortunavelut luna09:57, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding the static vs. dynamic thing, I know that my address is defined as dynamic, because there is no guarantee that it will remain the same, but in practice it has remained the same since Virgin last upgraded my connection a couple of years ago. Every edit from that address except the one in 2007 was made by me. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 10:25, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The non-admin close of my discussion above was clearly inappropriate. I have no idea who User:Vote (X) for Change might be, but would welcome an WP:SPI case to clear that up, and, as I have already said, my record speaks for itself in that I am not a vandal or a troll. The irony here is that the original thread on Jimbo's talk page that sparked this off was about how badly editors who choose to reveal their IP addresses are treated, and that two editors here have demonstrated exactly that. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 21:27, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
See my contributions. I've been on this IP address for nearly two years, and I've given on my talk page the two addresses that I used prior to that. I'm sorry, but I don't have a record of my addresses beyond the nearly four years covered there. Is that compulsory to avoid the gross violation of WP:AGF that you are committing here? And, if your 127.0.0.1 was meant as a joke, it isn't funny. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 22:29, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This is really not a productive line of enquiry. I know it can be difficult to tell sometimes, but can we not remove comments unless the user is banned? If in doubt, see if there's any admin who is prepared to make the block. -- zzuuzz(talk)21:58, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The user is banned. You can propose that socks should not be reverted unless they're blocked/banned as well, but I am not sure if that is a good idea. Maybe you can start a discussion at the policy section of the village pump? (((The Quixotic Potato))) (talk) 22:01, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
(after edit conflicts) See my contributions. I've been on this IP address for nearly two years, and I've given on my talk page the two addresses that I used prior to that. I'm sorry, but I don't have a record of my addresses beyond the nearly four years covered there. Is that compulsory to avoid the gross violation of WP:AGF that you are committing here? And, if your 127.0.0.1 was meant as a joke, it isn't funny. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 22:07, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe I am too pessimistic. Maybe I should've doubted FIM more. I noticed that after vandalfighting for a while people become really pessimistic about IP editors. I'll do some research when I am back at a desktop computer. If you are genuinely curious about why people mistrust some IP editors then I would recommend spending some time fighting vandalism (but using some of the tools does require having an account). (((The Quixotic Potato))) (talk) 22:19, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but there's no "maybe" about it. By your actions you have prevented me from improving Wikipedia this evening, but rather involved me in a completely unnecessary argument here. And those actions include your bare-faced lie that you had looked at my contributions before starting this ridiculous witch hunt. You really need to change your thinking completely if you are to be an asset to Wikipedia. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 22:29, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Lol. Seems I was too kind. I'll go back to being my normal jaded self again. Good luck collaborating with others. If you act like this then it is irrelevant if you are Vote X or not. (((The Quixotic Potato))) (talk) 22:32, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the IP. There is nothing funny or "maybe" about making potentially false accusations, especially sockpuppetry. Either you provide diffs for your accusations or it can be considered a personal attack. There nothing to lol about. Callmemirela🍁talk22:39, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that (((The Quixotic Potato))) is a little out of line here. They're throwing around accusations and presenting no evidence. I've looked at the IP's contributions and they're good for the most part, some misguided but not vandalism. On the otherhand (((The Quixotic Potato))) editing history is much more colourful than the IPs. I also think (((The Quixotic Potato)))'s closure of the IP's previous section was completely improper and they severely overstepped their editing bounds by non-admin closing such a section they were heavily involved in. Canterbury Tailtalk23:24, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The IP editor's comments to Jimbo's talk page that started this whole thing also seem perfectly reasonable and it appears the IP is being hounded by Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi and Quixotic at this point. I call for both users to cease what their are doing around this IP and apologise. This is not acceptible Wikipedian behaviour from two long term editors who should know better. And BTW Quixotic, people questioning your behaviour on here is not a waste of your time, in fact your actions so far are a waste of everyone else's time. Canterbury Tailtalk23:31, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I asked you to stop wasting my time. You should apologize to me for your false accusation, and mirela and the IP should apologize to me for their personal attacks. (((The Quixotic Potato))) (talk) 23:33, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If it is a waste of your time, you do not have to keep responding. Nobody is likely to give you the last word, which seems to be what you are after, while you persist with this arrogant attitude. Lepricavark (talk) 23:43, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This should probably be wrapped up with a 24–72 hour block of TQP while the IP's complaint above is investigated and/or addressed. I have no doubt that FIM is acting in good faith. I can't say the same for TQP. Lepricavark (talk) 23:48, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Either provide evidence for your accusations, or apologize (everyone makes mistakes). Those really are the only two honorable courses of action available to you. It's as simple as that. Paul August☎23:39, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
There was real artistry in the way that thread combined the grace of a ballet with the fascination of an inexorable train wreck. EEng05:09, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
On August 18, this person was searching Wikipedia for the misspellings "whote" and "wite" for the purpose of correcting them. Thesetwo corrections are quite wrong, and they are within the first dozen edits.
The same day, TheOldJacobite started defending against a swarm of this person's poor quality edits at the Zero Dark Thirty article, eventually using 11 different IP6 addresses, all starting with 2605:E000:9161:A500 in the recent months (back in April it was 2605:E000:9152:8F00.) After ten days of the nonsense, Scribolt worked to repair the damage. Unfortunately, this IP6 editor has worn out the patience of the page watchers, and the plot section now suffers for it.
It's only today that I became aware of this editor when they attempted to fix the grammar at some music articles. When I reverted the poor quality changes, I noticed that they were immediately restored with hostile comments in edit summaries and on talk pages. I looked further and saw that this person has been spoiling for a fight at the Ishqbaaaz talk page at which Cyphoidbomb said, "In the future if you could avoid adding multiple edit requests as you did, that would be appreciated." The angry reaction by this person was to add 12 new edit requests.
If there is a protect on an article it is not my fault what means I have to suggested edits. I am not aware that every suggestion has to be acted upon. And the suggestion that has been repeatedly made by so many other WP editors was that a registered user name be established. Again, is it oir is nit not the policy of WP to not look upon non-registered user name participants as just as legitimate as registered who tend to be more long term users and editors of WP. This just goes to my original contention that there exists in WP a two-phere mentality particularly when it comes to contentious actions such as the matter of this board. That in the long run people who use registered user names are perceived differently than non-registered user named.2605:E000:9161:A500:3832:5234:5BA4:7DB6 (talk) 07:23, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
At my user page, this person admitted to disrupting Wikipedia to prove a point when they wrote, "I always put something in to see just how unwelding can someone be about their position. Sometimes it is presenting a format out of kilter and sometimes it is a misspelled word."[130]
Please be advised that your characterization is incorrect. It was a test to better understand your personality and how it manifests. That is not the same as being disruptive but you are the status quo so I imagine that will have more influence that whatever position I could take.2605:E000:9161:A500:3832:5234:5BA4:7DB6 (talk) 07:36, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think communication with this person could be focused more clearly if a rangeblock were set in place on 2605:E000:9161:A500/64, while allowing talk page access. Binksternet (talk) 03:04, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Thanks, Binksternet. Interestingly (to me), this appears to be the same person who has been busting Drmargi's chops over at Talk:Victoria (TV series), dropping voluminous diatribes that don't genuinely seem focused on arriving at an understanding, rather, it seems like they're stonewalling improvements by draining editors of their time with a lot of confusing, linguistic dick-waving. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 03:20, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Let me know when you have calmed down from your venting of anger because that language really is not even in an anonymous environment suitable. I would think that you as what I perceive your image to be portrayed as a seasoned WP contributor would know that. I hope you do not take this wrongly. Maybe, you had a bad week or day.2605:E000:9161:A500:3832:5234:5BA4:7DB6 (talk) 07:16, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
For an example of which, see this thread on my talk page. After this gobbledegoop I took a look at some of the IPs edits, and reverted some of them, and the IP retaliated by making bullshit edits to an article I've done a lot of work on. This was 2605:E000:9161:A500:3832:5234:5BA4:7DB6, the first on Binksternet's list.Thanks to Binksternet for chasing down the other IP numbers this person is using. They're obviously NOTHERE and should be blocked. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:50, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Beyond My Ken: I originally thought the editor was using a complaint letter generator to respond to Drmargi. I had second thoughts about that, but the language is so bizarre. It's like someone was trying to write lawyer-speak in their native tongue, then mechanically translating it to English. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 04:49, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Let me understand if this is correct. I am being held responsible for the manner in which the technology works with WP in regard to how an IP address is recognized by WP? Because it is no great conspiracy on my part about how that functions. I enter the sight and whatever it recognizes it does on its own. I believe it is recognized by WP that users do not have to register to be a contributor? Or by the surprise about the number of "IP's" that this is not true? I have held on to this ability and now it seems I am being accused of being to proud and combative not to register a username? A review of actions by this board show that this trait seems to be prevalent with those that find fault with others. I recognize that within those that have a very high interest in WP find that a blasphemous statement but I cannot help what is prevalent and had no improved over the years despite WP stating that a contributor or even a user must register a username to be part of this community. There seems to be a cookie cutter app used by many at WP that seems to believe that registering a user name is the answer to the situation? How can on the one hand say it is official WP policy and guideline not to require a registered username yet on the other hand such as in this situation because of the technology of WP issue multiple IP's then turn around and say that there seems to be some thing wrongs with that many IP's? And it is merely the technology in motion? I guess there may be a finer point to this that you may be angry that this has happened? Again, that is not my responsibility and something I have absolutely no control. If there is anger about that it should be directed at WP's technology. But that may be immaterial as you all seem to be upset. And nothing will change that.Or is that going to be interpreted as a statement of being challenging to the status quo?2605:E000:9161:A500:3832:5234:5BA4:7DB6 (talk) 05:22, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The complaints have been about your edits and your comments, not about the number of IP addresses used - those are presented simply so that a range block can be made to stop you from editing further, if that is the WP:CONSENSUS of this discussion. And thanks very much for presenting precisely the problem with your language, which is nearly incomprehensible. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:47, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
sp suppose = supposed?(For the onlooker: the IP came to my talk page, quoted a 2 year and 4 month old comment I had made in which I had misspelled "security", and asked "sp securty=security?" Soon after the IP was making retaliatory edits to an article I've edited heavily.) Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:47, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That is an interesting addition to this proceeding. Is that often done? Although he came from over the hill can never said that I found the man all that appealing. paranoid, yes. And to think that his "official presidential papers" will probably never be housed at his presidential library because of his legal problems. Now will someone else be adding a pic of Raygun?2605:E000:9161:A500:3832:5234:5BA4:7DB6 (talk) 07:41, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I would find that someone saying the issue is totally over edits rather than IP's failing to recognize that within WP is an element that prides itself not on letting people function without registered usernames name but someone perceiving that the use of a registered username solves the problem at hand. Now this may have something to do with the availability of more experienced WP users using the app that uses canned language. When you combine someone's experienced as expressed on the pages that this person creates (not the articles) listing their accomplishment with this "command" as set forth by this canned language there does tend to be presented an air of authority. And as such wrapped around the content of that canned language that a registered user name somehow obliterates any perceived misunderstand is really someone not understanding the full impact of just what it is that they have done. Either you know that it is going on or oblivious to that fact which then calls question to your ability to evaluate and respond. Now, again, to the status quo that is blasphemous. There is a potential conflict there that you may not be aware that is going on and as a more advanced WP user you should just as you expect less expereicned WP users not to step on your toes. 2605:E000:9161:A500:3832:5234:5BA4:7DB6 (talk) 06:14, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No, it's about your problematic edits and your combative behavior. The only thing a registered username would do in this instance is to make it slightly easier to block you. Binksternet (talk) 06:20, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Remember that you are speaking for the status quo. You see nothing wrong with your approach or behavior. Do you truly understand the impact of canned apps? The reaction makes it appear you see nothing wrong with the status quo? And again, bringing up that statement is to the status quo blasphemous. How dare you say that there is something wrong with us when we are the authority>2605:E000:9161:A500:3832:5234:5BA4:7DB6 (talk) 06:41, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Irrelevant
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Let me understand this, Zero Dark Forty is faulty despite when the original issue was raised another editor complimented the tight expression? Could you recognize the inherently wrong direction the plot was going before its current status? Can it be recognized that when someone does not understand the context of a subject many times puffery makes it presence. The excess of detail shows that many who worked on this plot before could not wrap their understanding around how understanding the non-westerners was the means to understanding the plot of this film and getting rid of puffery. But instead all this other stuff that is detail, something experienced by the westerners and thus understandable was getting in the way to a -700 word plot. When the issue was raised about plot content another WP editor praised the tightness of the expression. All the detail was there to be used but not the detail that would give a -700 word plot. What was being missed was the experience through the non-western eye. At one time in the plot there was expressed in the same statement that someone was being followed yet were not identified as a suspect although it was clear that they traced the person all the way from being in a position to receive and send messages and being at the compound. Yet all this stuff about spy-craft puffery emerged without getting to the point that cultural and personal habits were key to getting a -700 word plot. If you are unwilling to accept that the approach taken is not the best yet when someone else insists it is there fault for you being upset? It seems that all the responsibility is being placed on the newbie instead of the more seasoned WP user relying on the canned apps. It sounds like there is a serious culture problem within WP as how to approach people. But then again, in the land of status quo, that is blasphemous. You get reprimanded for that. 2605:E000:9161:A500:3832:5234:5BA4:7DB6 (talk) 06:37, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
A review of dealings with even suspected sock puppies etc seems to bring people out of the woodwork as if there is some conspiracy to undermine WP. Just because the internet is the love of those that love anonymity does not mean that they are set out to act against anyone's interests and to have postulated that thought is just part and parcel to the other forms of character assassination used at WP.2605:E000:9161:A500:3832:5234:5BA4:7DB6 (talk) 06:47, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It is not my responsibility how WP technology works. You do not seem to accept that? And how do you base you assessment? Perception because you certainly have yet to provide except through that one action naturally would have followed thr other. I know that will make you upset but that is not my responsibility. Do us a favor in d=these discussions. Show up to give examples rather than mere mud throwing. Your other compatriate have done that well enough. We do not need people to come out of the wood work and using these avenues to vent anger only shows how bsse one can be in an anonymous environment. It is not as if you as my neighbor show up at a community meeting to say to my face what is it that you feel is the problem. Venting anger is really counter productive to these presumably civil and courteous proceedings. You have failed the mark. Would you like to return to your venting to clarify what you can cite as examples of support?2605:E000:9161:A500:3832:5234:5BA4:7DB6 (talk) 07:12, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Without commenting on the validity or need for a block, it seems like a rangeblock for 2605:e000:9161:a500:0:0:0:0/64 would take care of this. Based on edits since Sept. 1, 2017, this was the only (or at least primary) range used. Edit: Looks like Ansh666 beat me to the punch. See their comment above. EvergreenFir(talk)07:43, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Our brief user talk interaction[132][133] seems relevant to this thread, as it goes to the IP's mind-set vis-a-vis collaboration. I don't feel my request was unreasonable - your mileage may vary. ―Mandruss☎08:50, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I guess now I am going to ever be the more contentious because WP's forms are not user friendly? On the one hand I am deemed incompetent and yet on the other competent enough to do what is wanted by the status quo. WP really needs to determine just what it want to achieve. Slapping the person on one side of the face is not productive for having done something and then slapped on the other for not having done something?2605:E000:9161:A500:3832:5234:5BA4:7DB6 (talk) 09:34, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Since they are still doing their so-called grammar edits, all of which have to be checked to see that they haven't added errors where none existed (or substituted new errors for old ones), a block sooner rather than later would be good. They are a time sink, and it doesn't really matter whether they are incapable of understanding people's advice and pointers to policy, or if they merely choose to ignore what other editors say. The non sequitur answers here don't help. --bonadeacontributionstalk09:47, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The underlying situation here is that when it comes to blaming someone that usually goes toward the lesser experienced WP participants because the status quo is unwilling to let WP's reputation faulter. Just now, I have found that a seasoned WP editor justified their reverting of a grammatical correction that I made based on the wrong assumption that I had imposed a spelling error when in fact if that editor had reviewed what had been done before hitting the revert app they would have known that I had nothing to do with the misspelling of "released". Just as it has been said time and time again within this forum, WP is not a place for innovation and even within other discussion on this very page it has been said that actions have been taken to protect WP, not find the truth but protect WP. This is what comes from an organization that promotes ONLY from within. Talk about stifling debate. But then that is a blasphemous statement coming from the non-status quo. All the dancing that the status c=quo wants to do will not change that perception.2605:E000:9161:A500:3832:5234:5BA4:7DB6 (talk) 10:03, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hey guys, I get the idea from the latest immediate attention to edits I have made that I am not welcomed but at least get off the auto revert app and read what is it that you are reverting especially when you reintroducre misspellings.2605:E000:9161:A500:3832:5234:5BA4:7DB6 (talk) 12:12, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Mark, you are indiscriminately reverting everything without regard to what has been corrected which includes the misspellings that you reintroduce. I am suppose to present a defense dealing with these bizarre personalities? The guy trhows at me the 3r rule in response to him indiscrimately reverting as if the world is coming to an end. Boy, it really does not take much to ruffle the feather in this pillow case. This is so bizarre and you all call yourself sane. Well, that explains one missing glue bottle.2605:E000:9161:A500:3832:5234:5BA4:7DB6 (talk) 12:26, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
2605, the Wikipedia project's goal is supposedly to give everyone in the world an encyclopedia in their own language, but for some reason the English Wikipedia has almost(?) as much content as the rest of the world's language's Wikipedia's put together. Meanwhile, the other languages are badly underrepresented so we're missing our goal of serving the readers of those languages. Could I suggest that if your native language is not English, that you contribute to your own language's Wikipedia? That way you'd be helping the global Wikipedia effort in a way that monoglot English speakers (most of us here) cannot. 173.228.123.121 (talk) 13:07, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Well that turned into a circus. MarkSewath started reverting all the gnomish work that the IP6 person had been performing, with the reverts speeding along at about nine per minute, a speed which makes it impossible to see if you are helping to build the encyclopedia. Mark also accused the IP6 person of being a sockpuppet of Gabucho181,[134] which seems unlikely to me. Callanecc then blocked the IP for two days, which raised a storm of righteous protest from that person, and 90 minutes later Yamla revoked talk page access. To me, this action does not address the core concern which is that our IP6 editor from SoCal is a boorish timesink, making an unknown number of faulty changes to grammar and spelling, and provoking conflict in every interaction with other editors. The style of Gabucho181 is completely different than that. I would be happy to see a block placed on the IP6 range while allowing talk page access. Binksternet (talk) 15:42, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that this is not Gabucho181. Gabucho181 is located in South America, does not respond with wallsoftext, and does not have this level of English proficiency. Moreover, Gabucho181 likes to troll directly, antagonizing users and purposefully vandalizing pages. They perseverate typically on cartoons like Dan Vs. or Gravity Falls and have not been known to make grammar changes like this.
Goodness. I read this late last night and there were a couple comments, now it's all taken off. I'm not sure there's much I can contribute other than putting a few thoughts on the record just in case they may be needed in future. My encounter with the now-blocked IP was at Victoria (TV series). In its first episode, a court lady-in-waiting is forced to undergo a gynecological exam by court physicians when the Queen is lead to believe the lady is pregnant by an adversary of the Queen. Despite the fact the lady had no choice in the matter, and events followed which portrayed her as submitting under force, the IP removed the word force from the episode description, claiming that absent physical force in the manner of slaves, she wasn't forced to undergo the examination. I provided the Oxford dictionary (given this is a British show) definition of force, which includes action against will, and he let loose the dogs of war in a series of walls of text that are substantively unreadable. He adopts some lawyer-esque strategies that lead me to think he's either a para-legal worker of some sort or perhaps a law student who knows just enough to be dangerous: everything is on the attack, but at it's heart, simply says, "I'm going to limit the definition of force to a specific sort of physical force, and preclude the description of what happened to Lady Flora as force." As I noted at the time, this materially alters the motivation for the sequence of events that followed, and mis-represents what was done to the lady. His response was simply more words, and the addition of two additional threads picking at additional verbal nits.
My thanks to Cyphoidbomb for his help. I was told this might be an IP from the UK (despite the geolocation to the U.S., the IP uses some British English) who has argued against similar assaults on women, but apparently, that's not the case. Cyphoid stepped in when I hit a wall trying to get the issue resolved once it became apparent the IP was not discussing in good faith but simply playing word games. I'd also add, BMK, that User:2605:E000:9161:A500:7C06:FE51:3E78:B311 made one post in the thread, but the rest came from the IP above. Oh, and whoever thinks he's an academic, not on your Nelly. I'm an academic and this guy isn't playing in anything like the same pool. Oh, and one last odd thing: depending upon which geolocation site is used, the IP resolves to either Los Angeles County or Herndon, Virginia via Time Warner Cable. There's probably a reasonable explanation why, but I suspect he's actually in VA, since that location is more precise. ----Dr.Margi✉18:39, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Drmargi:: Thanks, I realized my error some time late last night, after the IP had been blocked. I also agree that when I went through Gabucho181's LTA page last night, it didn't seem much like this IP's behavior at all. Still, the IP did need to be blocked as an obvious troll and a timesink, despite the small percentage of their edits which were helpful. A net negative for sure. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:35, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding the person's tendency to prefer British English, I believe this comes from learning English in India. Many of the articles that interest the person are related to Indian culture. Binksternet (talk) 20:02, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Funny you say that; I suspected the same thing just based on his syntax and word choice. ----Dr.Margi✉20:30, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Can someone check into WP technology to understand why is it that I am bale to edit? I would not want people to think that I have somehow cracked the system. This is how I have access WP all along with all the varied assigned IP's. See Mark--no conspiracy.2605:E000:9161:A500:BC89:17B1:2FD6:DD67 (talk) 22:19, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You truly do not get it? I am doing absolutely nothing differne than in the past several months when editing WP. I go onto the website and this is what happens. It issues me a new account with a clean contiubtions list page. You make it out to sound as if I hav cracked the system. WP needs to lok ointo their syetm because there is a failure! Are you all conspiratorical idiots?
As the user is evading a block, I have applied a /64 range block for the same length of time as the block on the single IP address. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 22:59, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Similar to the section above, a user has been engaging in OR and poorly sourced list entries on List of terrorist incidents in September 2017 and List of terrorist incidents in October 2017 (as well as other related lists). Repeatedly, this user adds entries where the source does not either explicitly call the event terrorism or ascribe the event to a "violent non-state actor for political, religious, or ideological motives".
Despite warnings and attempts to communicate on the user's talk page, Hezdor continues the behavior. It appears that this user feels they need to add anything listed on the "global terrorism database page".
We don't usually delete user talk pages unless there's a very good reason (certainly not just as G7), and I'm not sure I'm seeing such a reason here. Policy is at WP:UP#DELETE, which says:
"You can freely blank any pages in your user space yourself (other than the few items that must not be removed) and request the deletion of your user page or subpages, by adding {{db-user}} to the top of the page.
As per policy, I have undeleted the user talk page (as a request to delete it on the user talk page is essentially a {{db-user}} request).
Oh, and as another point, G7 is only for cases where "the only substantial content of the page was added by its author", which is not the case here. (sorry for getting my points in a mixed-up order, but I think that's it now.) Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:57, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks all for dealing with this - when I brought it here I wondered if there was some blindingly-obvious action I should have taken, but clearly not! PamD13:34, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Ivar continues to blatantly ignore image copyvios and reverting of them despite repeated explanations why. User is also removing my WP:AUP talkpage contributions. See largest discussion here on my talk. As it is blatent image copyvio and ignoring WP:BRD and user won't acknowledge, I am ensuring their repeated basically-now-vandalism does not stand. Have raised here and on article talks (PK and ALP). Timeshift (talk) 17:56, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
First thing you *both* do is stop edit warring. Then, if you can't get anywhere by discussion, seek advice from a copyright expert - this report here should hopefully attract a few. User:Ivar the Boneful, *do not* revert other people's comments from talk pages. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:10, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It is a blatant image copyvio but Ivar continually refused to listen to all the guidelines I referred to (note that Ivar's lack of any substance on this dispute, as exhibited in the various mentioned talk pages, in-turn serves to show that unlike him, i'm able to defend myself here - whereas his actions can only and have only led him to a self-imposed vacuum after his initial post - to be shown correct by Ivar not being able to or capable of providing any further response here). When it comes to Australian Politics images, I am (at least in practice) a copyright expert. No user has done more for AusPol federal leader images than myself - and that's not a subjective opinion either, it's outright fact if one cares to spend any time having a look around the subject area. So whilst I understand why you've said what you've said in your last post Boing, conversely, I could not not post this. Anyway... WP:BRD should have got Ivar to get advice, leave the status quo, and not repeatedly force his new disputed change. Now, finally, we are there. Timeshift (talk) 18:17, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Well, then get *another* copyright expert to help - you know the way when two people can't agree on something, they can ask someone else? And ask that someone *before* you get into and way past WP:3RR territory. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:20, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I normally adhere to WP:3RR. But in this situation, when I wholeheartedly consider the other user not to be acting in good faith on purpose, refuses to listen to repeated advice, continues to force a blatant image copyvio even after I spelt out repeatedly in detail why it is such, and additionally ignores WP:BRD and WP:CON despite repeatedly explaining it. When these four are combined together, it cannot be considered anything except vandalism on top of the evident blatant image copyvio. In the latter half of the dispute, I raised the issue for discussion and input at WP:AUP discussion and at the PK and ALP article talk pages. In my 11-year 65k-contrib time here, this has always been enough, never before have I had to look for a specific explicit copyright expert. But if the new user is so sure they are correct, per WP:BRD it is incumbent upon them to seek such advice. I talked for ages on my user talk, on WP:AUP, on article talk pages. For the one defending the status quo and not violating WP:BRD, I most certainly consider it solidly sufficient. Timeshift (talk) 18:35, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It's not about winning a "Who's right?" battle, but just about getting the right answer - and a less confrontational approach form both sides usually works better, in my experience here. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:49, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
And almost always the right answer is accepted upon my explanation, but Ivar went way further. I kept giving him the information, guidelines, tools needed to demonstrate but Ivar did not read or care. I went to WP:AUP and various talk pages with no effect. Who's right/i'm right aside, I did more than many in this situation. I'm not an ANI (or AfD, et al) type of person - i am and always have been content (and talk page) focused and very much not bureaucracy focused - I leave that for others to do and usually that's how it always tends to occur. I can admit that when it is late and the user is being obtuse, I can get confrontational to an extent, but if that's all I have been, all it means is that i'm not perfect... fair enough, but I am who I am and i'm satisfied a reasonable person would have responded in the opposite way to Ivar. I tried, he didn't - I can't fix that. Anywho, it seems we are moving on to third party responses to the copyright question per below. Timeshift (talk) 18:56, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, the offending image in question is confirmed by the third party as a copyvio. Like there was ever going to be any other outcome *eyeroll*... i'm off to bed now, hopefully no bureaucracy night terrors. Timeshift (talk) 19:15, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
While the edit warring here was over the top, and extended well beyond the copyright issues, Ivar the Boneful has been trying to edit war obvious copyright violations into a large number of articles. I have warned them to stop this on their talk page, and will block them if it continues. Nick-D (talk) 21:53, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Communication and edit warring issues
I've been patrolling new pages on albums, and several by Mister Memmedov have popped up, all by the same artist. I changed to a redirect, sending a message to say so, with both the message and edit summary saying that the subject didn't meet WP:NALBUM or WP:GNG, but if something can be found to verify its notability, of course revert my edit. Mister Memmedov reverted all these edits without edit summaries, often several times, typical example is [145]. I've left numerous messages and edit summaries now explaining that WP:Communication is required and that edit warring, refusing to add edit summaries or respond to messages, and removing AfD tags while giving no reason are all disruptive editing and not welcome here. There are numerous warnings on his/her page, including about removing AfD tags two years ago [User talk:Mister Memmedov]. I think this editor is new relatively inexperienced (although edits are extremely similar to Xeyal Azerbeyli's edits). I just want the editor to start talking and try to resolve the issues. Xeyal Azerbeyli , please comment here. I may be misunderstanding you, but that's impossible to know if you refuse to communicate. Boleyn (talk) 18:25, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Joefromrandb (talk·contribs) has a long block log for disruptive editing and incivility. He was released from his last incivility block 15 days ago. He's made 3 edits to user talk pages in total since that block, 2 of them, nothing but incivility and battleground approach to interacting with others:
Support Indef Block - This is a long term pattern of incivility towards other users and against WP:BATTLE. This editor seems unwilling to change and is being disruptive to the project with edit warring and incivility. Per WP:BLOCK, "Blocks are used to prevent damage or disruption to Wikipedia, not to punish users". This is a clear cut case of disruption to Wikipedia. -- Danetalk19:20, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Toddst1: (edit conflict) Thank you for bringing this to our attention - Joefromrandb has been repeatedly warned and blocked for similar behaviour, and does not seem to want to change. I have blocked them indefinitely, as this behaviour is not conducive to this collaborative project. I'm disappointed its had to come to this, we should all be able to have differing opinions without reverting to incivility -- There'sNoTime(to explain)19:21, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Moved here from User talk:Joefromrandb@There'sNoTime: Thanks, and with respect too I do agree with your point. For anyone that's watching this page/coming across this page later, indefinite does not mean infinite, and Joefromrandb can be unblocked by uninvolved administrator once there is a consensus to do so. I disagree with indef being issued so quickly (despite of the long history) without hearing the input from Joefromrandb at latest WP:AN/I report, but we will wait for more input from others. Alex ShihTalk19:37, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I also thought the block was a bit too quick. As Bishonen said on Joe's talk page, Todd's civility warning could be reasonably interpreted as a provocation. On the other hand, Joe really does need to tone down the incivility. It's a difficult matter dealing with an uncivil individual. Warning him to stop will only further rile him up, but ignoring the problem does not make it go away. I therefore can't oppose the block very strongly; my only concern is that it came awfully quickly. Maybe Joe would get the message more clearly if there was a strong community consensus in favor of the block. Lepricavark (talk) 20:18, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)You say Joe has made three edits to user talk pages in total since the previous block, Toddst1? That's very inexact; I make it seven, most of them to his own page. The two edits that you diff above as examples of "nothing but incivility and battleground approach to interacting with others" are also to his own page, responses to one post from Bkonrad and one from you, where he requests first one and then the other of you to fuck off. The context is a quarrel between the three of you on WP:AN3. The post from you was a templated NPA warning about Joe's rude response to Bkonrad. I don't think getting aggravated in such a context is heinous. And no, Toddst, "Please fuck off and go away", that you warned Joe about, isn't a personal attack. I'm sorry, but it just isn't, because there's nothing personal about it. Read WP:NPA. Your NPA warning about it, taken in the context of what seems to be a long conflict between Joe and you, appears frankly to have been designed to elicit another rude, impatient reply, and you got it. There'sNoTime, I think you were too quick with your indef, and I don't support it. Please don't close this thread yet. If we can spend weeks debating the indefinite block of the egregious POV-pusher Hidden Tempo, and end by appointing a fucking panel of editors to close that discussion, I think we can weigh the fate of an actual long-time useful content contributor for more than a few minutes. Bishonen | talk20:20, 7 October 2017 (UTC).[reply]
I am not making excuses. I've had my differences with Joe in the past and his behavior is highly problematic. I'm trying to help you see how your response might not have been ideal. Lepricavark (talk) 20:32, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I thank you all for your opinions, but I stand firmly by my block. Continued blatant incivility is causing this project to get more and more toxic. Despite possible provocation, this has been a continued and unwavering course of incivility and I believe an indefinite block, which allows Joefromrandb to state a case as to how they will continue to contribute in a civil manner like the majority of our long-time useful content contributors manage, is the best way forward -- There'sNoTime(to explain)20:27, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, the block was too quick. The point of bringing an issue to AN/I is that the best course of action can be discussed. There was no time for anyone to actually do that, and Joefromrandb's action did not fall into any category of needing an immediate indef (apart from anything else, he hasn't edited for over 15 hours). Note: I don't believe I have had any previous dealings with this editor. Black Kite (talk)20:31, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I can put my hands up and say yes, this was a quick block - personally, I don't see how a discussion would affect the outcome. I'm happy to be proven wrong and will of course make way for any consensus that forms -- There'sNoTime(to explain)20:39, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Nice day for shopping isn't it? (UPDATE: Even more shopping.) So far, Toddst1 has taken Jfromrndb to ANEW, now ANI, and in the meantime Oshwah's talk page- with the misleading claim that "he's made 3 edits to user talk pages"- and as I pointed out, two of these were to his own page. For a start we allow a greater degree of latitude on editors' own pages, secondly, Toddst1 leaving a 'No personal attacks' only-warning (as a response to what JfrRNB said on their own talk) was clearly designed to encourage them to respond in kind, and thus provide an excuse to bring them here. WP:BAITING applies; either that or it shows phenomonally bad judgement on Toddst1's part. Either way, ANI is getting played like a stradivarius. And frankly, as has been pointed out elsewhere, blocking a few minutes into an ANI, that's had almost no eyes upon it apart from involved parties is having a bit of a tin bath really. No offence. There was absolutely NO reason for Toddst to keep pestering the other editor on his own page- unless, of course, the purpose was this- and a block. — fortunavelut luna20:34, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Slapping an NPA warning on a pissed off editor is only going to rile that editor up even more and you don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure that out - If TNT came and slapped any template on my talkpage I too would've told them to fuck off - Personal messages go a long way and a lot further than templated messages,
I think the block was too hasty too. There was no immediate need to do anything, and a discusson-based consensus on what to do would be a much better idea. I also see a bit of this going on here too. Take this as a !vote to undo the indef block. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:17, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
For clarity, if an uninvolved administrator would like to undo the indef block I won't object. I only ask that they ping me and that they work towards ensuring Joefromrandb cuts out the incivility -- There'sNoTime(to explain)21:22, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
In my handful of interactions with Joefromrandb he's been an angry prick, but this block was way too precipitate. If nothing else, the subject of a block is more likely to accept its legitimacy (and that matters, if we want him to accept he needs to change his ways) if it comes after a community discussion. He's mostly constructive but he needs to cut out the caffeine, or something. EEng22:05, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I've taken a look at this and am leaning towards two conclusions. First, there is a plausible argument that TNT may have pulled the block trigger a bit quickly and w/o giving other editors an opportunity to chime in. But I'd not call it outside his discretion or otherwise improper. Secondly Joefromrandb's track record is itself very strong evidence that this is a user who just doesn't play and get along well with others. Even taking into consideration that a couple of his blocks were lifted early, we are looking at twelve blocks over roughly five years. Whether or not TNT might have been better off waiting a bit, I haven't read a credible argument that the block is excessive. Given the background I honestly am a bit surprised that they haven't incurred a long term block before. I'm strongly inclined to affirm the block, with the stipulation that Joefromrandb could apply for a standard offer in six months. But the OP asks a good question that no one has answered, "At what point do we say we've had enough?" I'd say now is a good point. -Ad Orientem (talk) 00:59, 8 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support for block and strong support and appreciation for NoTime's action. First off, admins are completely empowered by the community to block (including the implementation of indefs) whenever they think it is in the best interests of the project--so long as the block is undertaken purely for those good faith reasons. It makes no sense to insist that if TNT had come across this behaviour out "in the wild" of the project generally, he could have implemented this block, but because a process had begun here, the block was somehow harmful to the blocked party or the project's interests. That would be pro-forma/procedural silliness and has never been a standard adopted by the community (explicitly or implicitly) when admins come across disruptive behaviour in this space (or at any other noticeboard/community space). If anything, the fact TNT took action based on misconduct raised here (and noted the block here) gives additional protection to the blocked party, insofar as the reasons for the block itself will come under more scrutiny--and thus any particularly kneejerk or unjustified block would be more likely to be called out.
Nor is this a particularly borderline case. TNT's block was Joe's fifth this year alone, four of which were for incivility. And just weeks back from the last one, Joe has already ramped themselves up to "Fuck off" levels of caustic/disruptive behaviour. Clearly this user is not hearing the community's concerns, and may indeed just not have the temperament at present to participate in a project of this sort. And for those saying "Well, but a block like this is, which doesn't give the party a chance to defend themselves, will only make them angrier," I have a response of but one word: "So?" This user's anger (or more specifically, their apparent inability to control it) is exactly the issue here and holding other parties responsible for it in this context makes zero sense. Furthermore, it's not as if this user has not had an opportunity to engage with the community over these matters and been given an opportunity to understand and assimilate community expectations with regard to civility; they have been to ANI recently and each of the occasions on which they have received a lesser block, it has been received from a different admin, who would have explained the reasons for the block. How many different ways does the community have to try to explain the baseline conduct standards of this project before we view a disruptive user's inability to internalize those rules as a problem with the editor themselves?
Lastly, as has been noted above, an indef block is not per se a permanent one. If this editor can take time away from the project, analyze what went wrong here and come back to us with a genuine effort to identify and address those concerns, they will almost certainly be allowed to resume editing. They may be angry now, but anger will fade with time and hopefully allow them that kind of introspection. Or it won't, and they will continue to see everyone but themselves as the problem--in which case they shouldn't be on the project anyway. Regardless, I think that There'sNoTime did not just make a reasonable call here--they made the obvious one. The community of contributors here at ANI is often very vocal about the difficulty of getting admins to act on clear issues with alacrity, which makes the complaints in this case all the more peculiar, but regardless, I think TNT's action was 100% appropriate, justified, and in the best interests of the project. Snowlet's rap01:07, 8 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough--you have an admin's perspective on this--but it's hard for me to imagine a scenario where it would be fair for an admin to exercise their authority to institute a long-term block. In this situation we have a user who has been blocked five times in eight and half months, four of those resulting from the same issue. What would be the threshhold at which you think an indef for blatantly uncivil behaviour is warranted? Or do you think admins should not have recourse to indefs in cases of incivility? If so, that's another conversation and I strike no firm position on that--aside from generally worrying that WP:C has, in recent years, not been treated with the seriousness it deserves as a WP:PILLAR policy (and in my opinion maybe our most important in terms of making a collaborative endeavour work). Perhaps that's a conversation worth having, but insofar as admins are right now, under every relevant policy and community expectation, allowed the discretion of indefs in cases of recurrent problems, it's hard for me to imagine what more TNT would be expected to wait for in this instance. Snowlet's rap03:39, 8 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Please note that I changed the original filer's template from Template:vandal to Template:user. That is a courtesy we can afford an "angry prick". For the record, there are better ways to handle this than a block, let alone an indefinite block. Sure, there are editors who have been begging for an indefinite block, and some of those editors show up regularly on these boards. Joefromrandomb is not one of those. Drmies (talk) 03:12, 8 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I propose WP:BOOMERANG block of the OP. (I've been quite critical of calls for BOOMERANG and those who love to apply it, as it has migrated from it's original -- that a complainer is guilty of the same complaint they are registering, in the same instance. In this case I think the application is perfect, since admin Toddst1's complaint of WP:BATTLE clearly applies to Toddst1, an admin known for holding grudges and going after others based on incivility concerns, which is a lark, since there are more pernicious ways of metering out incivility, than saying a bad word in a blunt reply on user Talk, such as what Toddst1 has mastered: following around his pet targets, inciting them to respond, then trying to reap maximum damage, all the while never saying a bad word himself in nearly his entire editing history, just to be sure no one can put an objective finger on his own incivility. There is probably a Mother Goose fable about this, basically, wolf in sheep's clothing story. Toddst1 is a rogue admin, this proves to me no change after his dodge from being de-sysopped.) ¶ Admin TNT did a block from the hip, a surfacy "incivility block" to the max, which is supposed to be reserved for users doing egregious damage. After Toddst1 gave one of those to me, he further attempted to bury me alive, by removing my Talk page access. (TNT, how much background on these two respective users did you do? None? Thought so.) And about telling someone to "fuck off" their own Talk page, if you think that is uncivil, they please go tell admin Drmies, who is now also arbcom, as he several times told me that on his Talk page. (Hypocrisy much?) ¶ User Ad Orientem, go soak your head, trying to use an editor's block history against them. (Classic technique to bias others according to your wishes. Let's see, Toddst1 indef-blocked me, is that a strike against me, or against Toddst1?) --IHTS (talk) 03:26, 8 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Ha, "hypocrisy much" says the editor who only shows up when there's an opportunity for digging up old grudges. For the record, Toddst1 is, on the whole, always, a fine, fine admin, and never finer than when he blocked you. Did I tell you to fuck off? Maybe so--on my own talk page, where you used to come trolling, back in the good old days.
We can have a discussion here about the value of the block, the value of the warning that led to the block, the speed with which the block was issues, the length of the block, the value of the editor relative to the disruption they cause (if any--some minor edit warring and a "fuck off" or two on their own talk), but for none of those things we need you. Stick to chess--you were doing fine there! Drmies (talk) 03:33, 8 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I thought I recalled a prior history between IHTS and Toddst1, one that didn't necessarily reflect well on the latter. In the admin's defense, both Joe and IHTS are known for uncollegial behavior, but that doesn't mean that Toddst1's behavior was optimal in any way. It is unfortunate, IHTS, that you chose to jump in here with a petulant rant, and telling another editor to "go soak your head" is not appropriate behavior. IHTS, this is not an elementary school playground. Lepricavark (talk) 03:43, 8 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
See [148]. I reverted the edit in Huggle but then I realized the significance of the page the text had been added to. Not sure how seriously to take it, and for now I'm not notifying the user of this discussion. Home Lander (talk) 22:13, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think this might be a dynamic IP, but it very well could be deliberate maneuvering. The best place to send this type of information is WP:AIV to report the vandal or WP:RFPP to protect the page. The range is just too wide for a rangeblock to be considered, IMO. Nihlus02:34, 8 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Ad Orientem already protected a bunch of them (thanks!) and I did a few more. I think that's about all we can do right now. For the record, I had no idea there were this many entities in that franchise--am I missing out? Drmies (talk) 03:17, 8 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know about the Die Hard franchise in paricular, but my general rule of thumb for franchises is that everything past #3 can be safely ignored. (And even #3 often isn't all that good, cf. Alien 3.) Of course, there are exceptions to the rule, Start Trek 5, for instance. Also, I've heard good things about Fast and Furious #37. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:35, 8 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Repeatedly reinserts without consensus what appears to be promotion of a non-notable Biblical translation (which has no article), without discussing per BRD/CONSENSUS. A few diffs: (same article: [149], [150], [151], [152]), (another article: [153], [154], [155]), (other articles: [156], [157]). My explanation on the editors's talk page: [158]. Thanks, —PaleoNeonate – 02:16, 8 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
).
Done--Ymblanter (talk) 14:24, 7 October 2017 (UTC)