Talk:Donald Trump

Highlighted open discussions

• #Trim second paragraph in lead
• #RfC: oldest and wealthiest
• #RfC: False statements

NOTE: It is recommended to link to this list in your edit summary when reverting, as:
[[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus|current consensus]] item [n]
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01. Use the official White House portrait as the infobox image. (Dec 2016, Jan 2017, Oct 2017, March 2020) (temporarily suspended by #19 following copyright issues on the inauguration portrait, enforced when an official public-domain portrait was released on 31 October 2017)

02. Show birthplace as "Queens, New York City, U.S." in the infobox. (Nov 2016, Oct 2018, Feb 2021) "New York City" de-linked. (September 2020)

03. Omit reference to county-level election statistics. (Dec 2016)

04. Superseded by #15

Lead phrasing of Trump "gaining a majority of the U.S. Electoral College" and "receiving a smaller share of the popular vote nationwide", without quoting numbers. (Nov 2016, Dec 2016) (Superseded by #15 since 11 February 2017)

05. Use Trump's annual net worth evaluation and matching ranking, from the Forbes list of billionaires, not from monthly or "live" estimates. (Oct 2016) In the lead section, just write: Forbes estimates his net worth to be [$x.x] billion. (July 2018, July 2018) Removed from the lead per #47.

06. Do not include allegations of sexual misconduct in the lead section. (June 2016, Feb 2018)

07. Superseded by #35

Include "Many of his public statements were controversial or false." in the lead. (Sep 2016, February 2017, wording shortened per April 2017, upheld with July 2018) (superseded by #35 since 18 February 2019)

08. Superseded by unlisted consensus

Mention that Trump is the first president elected "without prior military or government service". (Dec 2016, superseded Nov 2024)

09. Include a link to Trump's Twitter account in the "External links" section. (Jan 2017) Include a link to an archive of Trump's Twitter account in the "External links" section. (Jan 2021)

10. Canceled

Keep Barron Trump's name in the list of children and wikilink it, which redirects to his section in Family of Donald Trump per AfD consensus. (Jan 2017, Nov 2016) Canceled: Barron's BLP has existed since June 2019. (June 2024)

11. Superseded by #17

The lead sentence is "Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American businessman, television personality, politician, and the 45th President of the United States." (Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Feb 2017) (superseded by #17 since 2 April 2017)

12. The article title is Donald Trump, not Donald J. Trump. (RM Jan 2017, RM June 2019)

13. Auto-archival is set for discussions with no comments for 7 days. Manual archival is allowed for (1) closed discussions, 24 hours after the closure, provided the closure has not been challenged, and (2) "answered" edit requests, 24 hours after the "answer", provided there has been no follow-on discussion after the "answer". (Jan 2017) (amended with respect to manual archiving, to better reflect common practice at this article) (Nov 2019)

14. Omit mention of Trump's alleged bathmophobia/fear of slopes. (Feb 2017)

15. Superseded by lead rewrite

Supersedes #4. There is no consensus to change the formulation of the paragraph which summarizes election results in the lead (starting with "Trump won the general election on November 8, 2016, …"). Accordingly the pre-RfC text (Diff 8 Jan 2017) has been restored, with minor adjustments to past tense (Diff 11 Feb 2018). No new changes should be applied without debate. (RfC Feb 2017, Jan 2017, Feb 2017, Feb 2017) In particular, there is no consensus to include any wording akin to "losing the popular vote". (RfC March 2017) (Superseded by local consensus on 26 May 2017 and lead section rewrite on 23 June 2017)

16. Superseded by lead rewrite

Do not mention Russian influence on the presidential election in the lead section. (RfC March 2017) (Superseded by lead section rewrite on 23 June 2017)

17. Superseded by #50

Supersedes #11. The lead paragraph is "Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is the 45th and current president of the United States. Before entering politics, he was a businessman and television personality." The hatnote is simply {{Other uses}}. (April 2017, RfC April 2017, April 2017, April 2017, April 2017, July 2017, Dec 2018) Amended by lead section rewrite on 23 June 2017 and removal of inauguration date on 4 July 2018. Lower-case "p" in "president" per Dec 2018 and MOS:JOBTITLES RfC Oct 2017. Wikilinks modified per April 2020. Wikilink modified again per July 2020. "45th" de-linked. (Jan 2021)

18. Superseded by #63

The "Alma mater" infobox entry shows "Wharton School (BS Econ.)", does not mention Fordham University. (April 2017, April 2017, Aug 2020, Dec 2020)

19. Obsolete

Following deletion of Trump's official White House portrait for copyright reasons on 2 June 2017, infobox image was replaced by File:Donald Trump Pentagon 2017.jpg. (June 2017 for replacement, June 2017, declined REFUND on 11 June 2017) (replaced by White House official public-domain portrait according to #1 since 31 Oct 2017)

20. Mention protests in the lead section with this exact wording: His election and policies have sparked numerous protests. (June 2017, May 2018) (Note: In February 2021, when he was no longer president, the verb tense was changed from "have sparked" to "sparked", without objection.)

21. Superseded by #39

Omit any opinions about Trump's psychology held by mental health academics or professionals who have not examined him. (July 2017, Aug 2017) (superseded by #36 on 18 June 2019, then by #39 since 20 Aug 2019)

22. Do not call Trump a "liar" in Wikipedia's voice. Falsehoods he uttered can be mentioned, while being mindful of calling them "lies", which implies malicious intent. (RfC Aug 2017, upheld by RfC July 2024)

23. Superseded by #52

The lead includes the following sentence: Trump ordered a travel ban on citizens from several Muslim-majority countries, citing security concerns; after legal challenges, the Supreme Court upheld the policy's third revision. (Aug 2017, Nov 2017, Dec 2017, Jan 2018, Jan 2018) Wording updated (July 2018) and again (Sep 2018).

24. Superseded by #30

Do not include allegations of racism in the lead. (Feb 2018) (superseded by #30 since 16 Aug 2018)

25. In citations, do not code the archive-related parameters for sources that are not dead. (Dec 2017, March 2018)

26. Do not include opinions by Michael Hayden and Michael Morell that Trump is a "useful fool […] manipulated by Moscow" or an "unwitting agent of the Russian Federation". (RfC April 2018)

27. State that Trump falsely claimed that Hillary Clinton started the Barack Obama birther rumors. (April 2018, June 2018)

28. Include, in the Wealth section, a sentence on Jonathan Greenberg's allegation that Trump deceived him in order to get on the Forbes 400 list. (June 2018, June 2018)

29. Include material about the Trump administration family separation policy in the article. (June 2018)

30. Supersedes #24. The lead includes: "Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged or racist." (RfC Sep 2018, Oct 2018, RfC May 2019)

31. Do not mention Trump's office space donation to Jesse Jackson's Rainbow/Push Coalition in 1999. (Nov 2018)

32. Omit from the lead the fact that Trump is the first sitting U.S. president to meet with a North Korean supreme leader. (RfC July 2018, Nov 2018)

33. Do not mention "birtherism" in the lead section. (RfC Nov 2018)

34. Refer to Ivana Zelníčková as a Czech model, with a link to Czechs (people), not Czechoslovakia (country). (Jan 2019)

35. Superseded by #49

Supersedes #7. Include in the lead: Trump has made many false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency. The statements have been documented by fact-checkers, and the media have widely described the phenomenon as unprecedented in American politics. (RfC Feb 2019)

36. Superseded by #39

Include one paragraph merged from Health of Donald Trump describing views about Trump's psychology expressed by public figures, media sources, and mental health professionals who have not examined him. (June 2019) (paragraph removed per RfC Aug 2019 yielding consensus #39)

37. Resolved: Content related to Trump's presidency should be limited to summary-level about things that are likely to have a lasting impact on his life and/or long-term presidential legacy. If something is borderline or debatable, the resolution does not apply. (June 2019)

38. Do not state in the lead that Trump is the wealthiest U.S. president ever. (RfC June 2019)

39. Supersedes #21 and #36. Do not include any paragraph regarding Trump's mental health or mental fitness for office. Do not bring up for discussion again until an announced formal diagnosis or WP:MEDRS-level sources are provided. This does not prevent inclusion of content about temperamental fitness for office. (RfC Aug 2019, July 2021)

40. Include, when discussing Trump's exercise or the lack thereof: He has called golfing his "primary form of exercise", although he usually does not walk the course. He considers exercise a waste of energy, because he believes the body is "like a battery, with a finite amount of energy" which is depleted by exercise. (RfC Aug 2019)

41. Omit book authorship (or lack thereof) from the lead section. (RfC Nov 2019)

42. House and Senate outcomes of the impeachment process are separated by a full stop. For example: He was impeached by the House on December 18, 2019, for abuse of power and obstruction of Congress. He was acquitted of both charges by the Senate on February 5, 2020. (Feb 2020)

43. The rules for edits to the lead are no different from those for edits below the lead. For edits that do not conflict with existing consensus: Prior consensus is NOT required. BOLD edits are allowed, subject to normal BRD process. The mere fact that an edit has not been discussed is not a valid reason to revert it. (March 2020)

44. The lead section should mention North Korea, focusing on Trump's meetings with Kim and some degree of clarification that they haven't produced clear results. (RfC May 2020)

45. Superseded by #48

There is no consensus to mention the COVID-19 pandemic in the lead section. (RfC May 2020, July 2020)

46. Use the caption "Official portrait, 2017" for the infobox image. (Aug 2020, Jan 2021)

47. Do not mention Trump's net worth or Forbes ranking (or equivalents from other publications) in the lead, nor in the infobox. (Sep 2020)

48. Supersedes #45. Trump's reaction to the COVID-19 pandemic should be mentioned in the lead section. There is no consensus on specific wording, but the status quo is Trump reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic; he minimized the threat, ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, and promoted false information about unproven treatments and the availability of testing. (Oct 2020, RfC Aug 2020)

49. Supersedes #35. Include in lead: Trump has made many false and misleading statements during his campaigns and presidency, to a degree unprecedented in American politics. (Dec 2020)

50. Supersedes #17. The lead sentence is: Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician, media personality, and businessman who served as the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. (March 2021), amended (July 2021), inclusion of politician (RfC September 2021)

51. Include in the lead that many of Trump's comments and actions have been characterized as misogynistic. (Aug 2021 and Sep 2021)

52. Supersedes #23. The lead should contain a summary of Trump's actions on immigration, including the Muslim travel ban (cf. item 23), the wall, and the family separation policy. (September 2021)

53. The lead should mention that Trump promotes conspiracy theories. (RfC October 2021)

54. Include in the lead that, quote, Scholars and historians rank Trump as one of the worst presidents in U.S. history. (RfC October 2021) Amended after re-election: After his first term, scholars and historians ranked Trump as one of the worst presidents in American history. (November 2024)

55. Regarding Trump's comments on the 2017 far-right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, do not wiki-link "Trump's comments" in this manner. (RfC December 2021)

56. Retain the content that Trump never confronted Putin over its alleged bounties against American soldiers in Afghanistan but add context. Current wording can be altered or contextualized; no consensus was achieved on alternate wordings. (RfC November 2021) Trump's expressions of doubt regarding the Russian Bounties Program should be included in some capacity, though there there is no consensus on a specific way to characterize these expressed doubts. (RfC March 2022)

57. Do not mention in the lead Gallup polling that states Trump's the only president to never reach 50% approval rating. (RfC January 2022)

58. Use inline citations in the lead for the more contentious and controversial statements. Editors should further discuss which sentences would benefit from having inline citations. (RfC May 2022, discussion on what to cite May 2022)

59. Do not label or categorize Trump as a far-right politician. (RfC August 2022)

60. Insert the links described in the RfC January 2023.

61. When a thread is started with a general assertion that the article is biased for or against Trump (i.e., without a specific, policy-based suggestion for a change to the article), it is to be handled as follows:

1. Reply briefly with a link to Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias, optionally using its shortcut, WP:TRUMPRCB.
2. Close the thread using {{archive top}} and {{archive bottom}}, referring to this consensus item.
3. Wait at least 24 hours per current consensus #13.
4. Manually archive the thread.

This does not apply to posts that are clearly in bad faith, which are to be removed on sight. (May 2023)

62. The article's description of the five people who died during and subsequent to the January 6 Capitol attack should avoid a) mentioning the causes of death and b) an explicit mention of the Capitol Police Officer who died. (RfC July 2023)

63. Supersedes #18. The alma mater field of the infobox reads: "University of Pennsylvania (BS)". (September 2023)

64. Omit the {{Very long}} tag. (January 2024)

65. Mention the Abraham Accords in the article; no consensus was achieved on specific wordings. (RfC February 2024)

66. Omit {{infobox criminal}}. (RfC June 2024)

67. The "Health habits" section includes: "Trump says he has never drunk alcohol, smoked cigarettes, or used drugs. He sleeps about four or five hours a night." (February 2021)

Trim second paragraph in lead

The lead section currently comprises an intro sentence briefly defining the subject and three paragraphs describing his life: the first on Trump's early life and business career, the second on his accession to the presidency, and the third about his actions as U.S. President. Now that we are well into the third year of his first term, I believe that the second paragraph has reached undue proportions compared to the rest of the biography. I would therefore suggest to trim it thus.

Current version

Trump entered the 2016 presidential race as a Republican and defeated sixteen opponents in the primaries. His campaign received extensive free media coverage. Commentators described his political positions as populist, protectionist, and nationalist. Trump has made many false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency. The statements have been documented by fact-checkers, and the media have widely described the phenomenon as unprecedented in American politics. Trump was elected president in a surprise victory over Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton. He became the oldest and wealthiest person ever to assume the presidency, the first without prior military or government service, and the fifth to have won the election despite having lost the popular vote. His election and policies have sparked numerous protests. Many of his comments and actions have been perceived as racially charged or racist.

Proposed trim

Trump entered the 2016 presidential race as a Republican and defeated sixteen opponents in the primaries. Commentators described his political positions as populist, protectionist, and nationalist. He was elected president in a surprise victory over Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton, although he lost the popular vote. Trump became the first U.S. president without prior military or government service. His election and policies have sparked numerous protests. He made many false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency. Many of his comments and actions have been perceived as racially charged or racist.

Rationale to keep or remove each sentence

• Keep Trump entered the 2016 presidential race as a Republican and defeated sixteen opponents in the primaries. This was the widest field of Republican candidates ever, and Trump used to be a Democrat. He encountered perhaps more opposition from within the Republican party as from the Democratic candidates. Even after he became the nominee, the Never Trump movement continued until and beyond election day.
• Remove His campaign received extensive free media coverage. All presidential campaigns do, so what was exceptional this time? On the one hand, the media gave him a lot of airtime, on the other hand most of their coverage was negative. There's not much to conclude in terms of unusual influence of "free media" on voters.
• Keep Commentators described his political positions as populist, protectionist, and nationalist. That sounds like a fair and concise summary of his "MAGA" campaign platform.
• Keep He made many false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency. That's a notable characteristic of his campaign rhetoric, of his prior life story touting "truthful hyperbole", and of his ongoing vagaries with the truth. Because it does not apply to the campaign only, I moved this to the end of the paragraph, before the sentence on racially-charged statements.
• Remove The statements have been documented by fact-checkers, and the media have widely described the phenomenon as unprecedented in American politics. That's too much detail for the lead, and is partly opinion. The previous sentence says enough about false statements; keep details for article body.
• Keep He was elected president in a surprise victory over Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton. That's the meat of the paragraph.
• Remove Trump became the oldest and wealthiest person ever to assume the presidency. That's just irrelevant trivia.
• Keep He became the first U.S. president without prior military or government service. That sounds more relevant than his age or his wealth.
• Replace and the fifth to have won the election despite having lost the popular vote by although he lost the popular vote after we mention his victory against Clinton. Keep the footnote that explains the Electoral College and mentions that this situation has occurred five times.
• Keep His election and policies have sparked numerous protests. That's a fact, and we have strong consensus to mention it.
• Keep Many of his comments and actions have been perceived as racially charged or racist. Keep per recent RfC.

Comments welcome. — JFG ^talk 22:43, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

I would agree with the changes except for the removal of "The statements have been documented by fact-checkers, and the media have widely described the phenomenon as unprecedented in American politics.", which I am strongly opposed to. This wording enjoys hard-won consensus. It is an important qualifier to the previous sentence.- MrX 🖋 23:21, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

I strongly oppose the sentences - Trump has made many false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency. The statements have been documented by fact-checkers, and the media have widely described the phenomenon as unprecedented in American politics. Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged or racist. First - many politicians make misleading statements, but that is not placed in the article, much less in the opening paragraph. Second, the fact that the statements have been documented by fact-checkers is hardly relevant - fact checkers can and do routinely tear apart speeches to characterize the slightest misstep as a lie. Remember President Obama saying he had visited 57 States? Or if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor? But the opening paragraph of Obama's article does not state that he has made many false statements, and it shouldn't. Third, most fact check web sites are notoriously liberal, and are not objective when determining if a conservative has made a false or misleading statement. Fourth - the sentence about many of his comments being characterized as racist is not even cited, but merely mentioned as an established fact, which it certainly is not. For all these reasons these sentences need to be removed. JohnTopShelf (talk) 03:20, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

I strongly oppose removal of "Trump became the oldest and wealthiest person ever to assume the presidency." These are relevant and important items. I disagree that they are "irrelevant trivia." The Reagan article, for comparison, notes in the lead section that "Reagan was the oldest person to have been elected to a first-term..."; the JFK article states "at age 43, he became the second-youngest man to serve as president (after Theodore Roosevelt), the youngest man to be elected as U.S. president"; the T. Roosevelt article says that he "remains the youngest person to become President of the United States"; the Lincoln article states that Lincoln "grew up on the frontier in a poor family." Neutrality^talk 02:43, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

I largely agree with JFG, except for what Neutrality has expressed. Trump's wealth was a huge point of discussion in the election -- whether it was a pro or a con depended on who you were talking to, but it was constantly talked about either way. Cosmic Sans (talk) 17:28, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

• Support. I agree with each and every deletion. I think JFG has done a nice job here separating the most significant aspects from the less significant aspects. I think MrX's concern can be addressed by expanding the "false or misleading sentence"; the "fact-checkers" sentence is a bit much and just poorly written. Regarding the "oldest and wealthiest" sentence, that's absolutely important, but my understanding (as an avid news reader) is that, regardless of how we feel about it, it's received significantly less RS coverage than the other content in the paragraph. R2 (bleep) 19:30, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
• Same as MrX. Consensus has weight and it should take a lot to change one, particularly a recent one. By "a lot" I mean considerably more than a majority in this discussion, which is about far more than that sentence. I fail to see how the sentence is "just poorly written", and I don't think that's just because I wrote it. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:13, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, I had no idea who had drafted that sentence when I wrote that. Both clauses could be greatly improved.

• The statements have been documented by fact-checkers This is extremely milquetoast... Trump's false statements have been documented by fact checkers... So what? Every prominent politician's false statements have documented by fact checkers. This clause says more about fact checkers (and arguably about the political climate that led to the rise of fact checkers) rather than about Trump himself.
• and the media have widely described the phenomenon as unprecedented in American politics. Just difficult to understand, because "the phenomenon" is so vague. I assume this refers to the frequency of Trump's false and misleading statements? If so, why don't we just say that? In addition, the "unprecedentedness" of Trump's false and misleading statements is a verifiable fact. We shouldn't be attributing this in-text to "the media," which violates WP:YESPOV (do not treat verifiable facts as opinions) and plays into Trump's war on the media and the concept that reliable sources are somehow on par with a politician's statements.

R2 (bleep) 17:38, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

TL;DR: the emphasis of the sentence is all wrong, as both clauses are about the media's conduct, rather than about Trump. R2 (bleep) 17:41, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Mea culpa, I should have omitted my last sentence above. The content sentence in question is the result of an RfC that was open for more than a month a mere few months ago, focused exclusively on that little bit of content, and received over 10,000 words from over 30 editors. One of the precious few editors willing to spend their time doing uninvolved closes spent a considerable amount of it assessing that consensus and writing the close. A change to that consensus should not even be on the table in this discussion. If you feel it's really important, start another RfC and be prepared for the outcry of "too soon to revisit this". ―Mandruss ☎ 17:55, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for the info. I'm positively hitting myself for missing that RfC. R2 (bleep) 18:59, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Upon review I see I hit the RfC early and never saw Mandruss's proposed language. Damn. R2 (bleep) 19:15, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

• Same as MrX as well. And the Mandruss comments also. Gandydancer (talk) 13:27, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

• Can remove lots more - keeping 9 out of 11 is not much of a reduction. Some of these seem removable as not biographically major, some seem just an old artifact from when he was a candidate and there was nothing more to say, etcetera. So try eliminating down to just a few lines as was the mid-term precedent for Bush and Obama. Looking instead for whats the most that could be removed as not biographically big and/or not big in article gets a different view of just a couple things really need to stay.

1. KEEP Presidential race. Major life event, large section of the article and much follows from that.
2. Drop free media coverage. It was explaining how he got the nomination, but is not life event or large section.
3. Drop commentators describe. Outside views not a life event, and content not in body -- only populist seems mentioned and not much of it. Shift this to body.
4. Drop has made false. Outside views not a life event, and not much in article - plus has been contentious.
5. Drop documented by fact-checkers. Just adding detail behind prior line.
6. KEEP elected in surprise. Major life event, sizable section of article and much follows from that.
7. Drop oldest and wealthiest, we do keep this kind of trivia here, but its not in article and not important
8. Drop without prior military - we could but others make no lead about such, its not a big life event or big part of article
9. Drop popular vote - not any effect from that, and its just one line in article body - plus its a parisan complaint.
10. Drop numerous protests - not a major life event, small section in article and seems vague blurb for what was a 1-month wonder.
11. Drop perceived as racist - outside views not a life event, big section of the article though. But it was contentious on having in lead.

Cheers Markbassett (talk) 04:16, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

• Update – Thanks for the feedback so far. I'll leave this suggestion open for another week to gather more comments, then we'll see how to proceed. — JFG ^talk 20:09, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

We had an entire entire RfC on the "unprecedented" sentence. Wouldn't it require another RfC to remove? There was Consensus to use the term "unprecedented" so long as it is properly cited with a WP:RS. This was in February 2019. Has anything substantial changed since then? I doubt it. starship.paint (edits | talk) 04:28, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

There is a proposal below to condense the two "false statements" sentences into one, while keeping the "unprecedented" qualifier. — JFG ^talk 10:02, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

There's no rule that a consensus coming out of an RfC is "set in stone" or that it cannot be changed without another RfC. R2 (bleep) 21:14, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

Many of his comments and actions have been perceived as racially charged or racist.

How can this sentence NOT be deleted? It is inflammatory and not cited, and it is written as if it were fact. Stating opinion of this type, even if it is the opinion of the majority of editors as well as left-leaning journalists, it is just that - opinion - not fact. Further, this violates the neutral point of view policy of Wikipedia. it should definitely be removed. JohnTopShelf (talk) 18:53, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

How are we doing?

Of my proposed changes, there was unanimous support to remove free media coverage, and strong opposition to removing the sentence about fact-checkers. A separate thread was open below to discuss proposals to combine it with the previous sentence about false statements to make the whole point shorter. Other changes were generally supported, except that two persons want to keep the "oldest and wealthiest" stats, and one person would like to remove much more stuff. I'm going to apply the changes that were not substantially contested, and we'll take it from there. The new tenure of the paragraph is:

Trump entered the 2016 presidential race as a Republican and defeated sixteen opponents in the primaries. Commentators described his political positions as populist, protectionist, and nationalist. He was elected president in a surprise victory over Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton, although he lost the popular vote. He became the oldest and wealthiest person ever to assume the presidency, and the first without prior military or government service. His election and policies have sparked numerous protests. Trump has made many false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency. The statements have been documented by fact-checkers, and the media have widely described the phenomenon as unprecedented in American politics. Many of his comments and actions have been perceived characterized as racially charged or racist.

— JFG ^talk 02:14, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

Yeah fine. No opinion on oldest/wealthiest. starship.paint (talk) 03:10, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. Perfectly happy with this version. Mentioning his advanced years is ageist, and mentioning he's wealthy is vulgar, so I wouldn't be opposed to losing the age/wealth thing as Starship.paint said. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:39, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

In the last sentence, "perceived" needs to be changed to "characterized". Rreagan007 (talk) 21:16, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Yes, due to the recent RfC that found consensus to replace this word. Updated above. — JFG ^talk 14:50, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

What needs to happen is not just changing "perceived" to "characterized" - this entire sentence needs to be removed. How can this sentence NOT be deleted? It is inflammatory and not cited, and it is written as if it were fact. Stating opinion of this type, even if it is the opinion of the majority of editors as well as left-leaning journalists, it is just that - opinion - not fact. Further, this violates the neutral point of view policy of Wikipedia. JohnTopShelf (talk) 17:14, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

@JohnTopShelf: It is fully supported by sources in the body of the article, and it doesn't matter if it is "inflammatory" because it is factual. The sentence is not cited in the opening section of the article per WP:LEDECITE. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:56, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

That some people characterize some of President Trump's statements as racist is not factual - it is the opinion of those people. JohnTopShelf (talk) 17:28, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Please don’t use terms like “left-leaning journalists”. Trump was called out for racist acts and words when he was a Democrat. O3000 (talk) 17:36, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

According to our article "Trump's political party affiliation has changed numerous times over the years. He registered as a Republican in Manhattan in 1987, switched to the Reform Party in 1999, the Democratic Party in 2001, and back to the Republican Party in 2009." So you are saying that some people called Trump racist when he was a Democrat. And the Democratic Party has also changed somewhat in the intervening period of time, has it not? Bus stop (talk) 17:56, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Trump's problems with race go back to his young days. I'm just saying, we shouldn't use terms like “left-leaning journalists” in an attempt to marginalize sources that someone finds inconvenient. O3000 (talk) 18:27, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose 2600:1702:2340:9470:5922:3A4A:33F9:16A4 (talk) 21:26, 15 May 2019 (UTC) — 2600:1702:2340:9470:5922:3A4A:33F9:16A4 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Reversion explanation

I reverted this removal of cited content on the basis that it doesn't violate WP:WEIGHT. I think this should be properly discussed first. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:18, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

I already did the BRD...sorry if my revert of that undue material was not characterized as a challenge by my reversion already. That belongs in the Presidency article, not this BLP.--MONGO (talk) 22:14, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

There are some edits in the subsection that probably don't belong there, but this particular edit isn't among them. If we're going to have an "Economy and trade" section in his BLP, a significant effect of his signature economic policy is most certainly germane. soibangla (talk) 22:32, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

There were numerous sources before and after the election that Trump was going to cause a stock sell off/recession/economic turmoil etc. and for most folks that has not rung true. If were going to be adding prognistications its best to do it somewhere off the BLP main page.--MONGO (talk) 22:43, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

In this case it is based on the economic reality that the administration has imposed tariffs which directly increase the costs paid by businesses/consumers buying imports, and economists have actual empirical data to work with. If anything belongs here, this does. soibangla (talk) 22:50, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

Irregardless, my edit was the BRD so Scjessey should self revert.--MONGO (talk) 00:00, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

It belongs in the article.2600:1702:2340:9470:9C71:218B:7331:3E2E (talk) 03:30, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

Your edit summary said Undue for this BLP, perhaps in Presidency subarticle. Why are his decades in TV (wrestling, beauty pageants, Apprentice) undue for a personal bio? You removed the occupation "television personality" from the info box in the same edit. That's not something that could happen accidentally. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 08:24, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

Removing the television personality was not intended and should be kept of course.--MONGO (talk) 14:25, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

• REMOVED. Please follow WP:BRD - don’t restore the changes or engage in back and forth reverting. The para comparing tarrifs to tax breaks had been deleted, posting a thread and discussing was good and proper. Restoring it immediately, not so much.

This seems yet another same-day posted story, and as I’ve said before that simply gives no time for WEIGHT (if any) to appear, or responses and further details. WP is not a news hotline, give it a 48 hour waiting period and it will be more obvious whether it is big or not. I rather doubt it though — this is a speculation and calculation against if tariffs go on vs comparison, a created item rather than factual event or causally linked item. Newspaper has to fill the space up with something every day and this is a good do — but WP doesn’t and shouldn’t copy every one. Also, this does seem the wrong article, OFFTOPIC as not BLP - not one of his personal life decisions or impacts - and CNBC remarks are too low a detail for here. It might take the mentioned suggestion and try the Presidential article, though even there I think it should be viewed as little coverage (UNDUE) illustrative speculation and/or partisan posturing. And WP simply cannot usefully add immediately same-day tales, each day, of every story du jour of daily spin. As a crafted portrayal rather than simple report of event facts, it should only get space if it shows some duration, spread, and effect. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 11:17, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

• The material is appropriate for this article, every bit as much as the tax cuts passed by Congress. It has been extensively covered by major news organizations. We should also add that Trump lied[1] about Chinese paying the tariffs: "So our country can take in $120 billion a year in tariffs, paid for mostly by China, by the way, not by us. A lot of people try and steer it in a different direction. It’s really paid — ultimately, it’s paid for by — largely, by China."[2][3]- MrX 🖋 12:03, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

After I reverted MONGO's edit and then posted here, I went offline until just now. Looking back at the edit history, I see that I had incorrectly assumed the paragraph in question had been there for much longer. I apologize to @MONGO: for reverting their quite proper BRD edit. I would've self reverted, but I can see that I sparked off a bit of an edit war. For the record, I am in favor of retaining the paragraph per comments made above by Space4Time3Continuum2x and MrX, but I would be perfectly happy for it to be removed pending the outcome of this discussion. My bad. Apart from the big tax give away to rich people and corporations, Trump's tariffs have had more of a direct impact on the economy (and the stock market in particular) than anything else he has done in the last couple of years, so obviously it is something that should be included. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:31, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

• Keep. There were numerous sources before and after the election that Trump was going to cause a stock sell off/recession/economic turmoil etc. and for most folks that has not rung true. What does that have to do with the added costs for businesses and consumers through tariffs imposed on imports and those costs going straight into the government's coffers? That's not soothsaying, it's math. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 14:09, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

The edit is not BOLD. That it may be stunning to and intensely disliked by some does not make it BOLD. soibangla (talk) 17:17, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

• User:Soibangla The Revert comment of MONGO for the CNBC 5/16 comparing projected tax cuts to projected tariffs was “Undue for this BLP, perhaps in Presidency sub article”. Please BRD Discuss with MONGO, preferably in policy and factual evidence. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 01:06, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

I did discuss it with MONGO on the terms you describe. soibangla (talk) 02:51, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

User:Soibangla Where is it? I don’t see showing evidence of WEIGHT and doing my own Google, the topic of Trump Chinese tariffs got 65 million hits — that but tariffs equivalent to taxes is a microscopic 76 thousand of the 65 million (about 00.1 percent). And I see a bit about if there’s an economy section this should be here ... which isn’t showing this is part of a biographical bit. I’m willing to say the economy section doesn’t belong in a BLP ‘story of his life’, nor this part. But we don’t need to talk OFFTOPIC if this part can’t even show WEIGHT. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 01:05, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

• I cannot believe the people here who are NOT abiding by my BRD reversion. My reversion should not be edit warred over until a consensus is achieved either way. @Awilley: maybe can check the recent editing history and issue reminders to MrX and others who keep restoring this material without a consensus to do so.--MONGO (talk) 03:52, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

This also might be a good opportunity to re-examine the reasonableness of invoking BRD when an edit isn’t actually BOLD. soibangla (talk) 03:59, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

You inserted this content on 17 May 2019, 18:02,[4] and MONGO reverted two hours later at 20:19.[5] Per BRD, the first edit was Bold, the second was a Revert, and now people are Discussing. There is no need to re-examine the reasonableness of invoking BRD, unless you want to question a fundamental tenet of Wikipedia. — JFG ^talk 07:35, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

I am not questioning a fundamental tenet of Wikipedia. I am saying that the edit was not BOLD to begin with, and I already explicitly stated that to make my position abundantly clear. soibangla (talk) 17:40, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

After the initial B and R steps, various editors edit-warred over the content (Scjessey, Rogerd, Kingerikthesecond, Markbassett and MrX); that is improper. Please all wait until this discussion reaches consensus. In the meantime, the disputed content must stay out, and I will remove it now. I have not yet formed an opinion on the merits of this text; this is purely a procedural removal — JFG ^talk 07:52, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

I have opened a new thread to discuss what to say about the #Impact of tariffs on U.S. consumers. Thus, procedural issues (discussed here) can be segregated from content issues (to be discussed in new thread). — JFG ^talk 08:02, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

@JFG: As I said above, I had not realized the material was only recently added when I challenged MONGO's edit. I thought I was initiating a BRD cycle. It was not my intention to edit war, and I specifically apologized for precipitating one in my comment above. It is absolutely correct that the paragraph in question should not be in the article unless a consensus for inclusion is reached. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:25, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

I understand that you only realized this later + you took the right step by initiating the discussion. No problem at all. — JFG ^talk 13:21, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

Making a single edit is never edit warring and I don't need a reminder, thank you. My edit was perfectly reasonable.- MrX 🖋 12:32, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, but JFG is right. This article is under WP:1RR, and technically every edit removal/addition of the content after MONGO's is a violation (including mine and JFG's). -- Scjessey (talk) 12:42, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

Huh? 1RR is not a shared restriction. I made on 1RR. I'm not responsible for the others. Please read WP:EW if you still think a single revert ever qualifies as edit warring.- MrX 🖋 17:01, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

@MrX: It's not WP:EW that you need to be concerned about, it's WP:ARBAPDS. I've previously received warnings for a single edit that initiated or perpetuated an edit war, and all the edits after MONGO's initial reversion did this. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:19, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

That's just not right. I initiated the Arbcom case that resulted in ARBAPDS and at no evidence whatsoever was presented about editors making a single revert, nor did Arbcom have any findings of fact in that regard. You may be thinking of Coffee's restrictions, which gave inordinate control of these articles to sockpuppets and SPAs who had no interest in developing articles.- MrX 🖋 19:56, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

@MrX: Once an edit has been "challenged" per WP:BRD (as MONGO did), there should be no further deletions/restorations of the material in question, and it most certainly not be edit warred over, even if it is only a single edit. That's akin to tag teaming, even if it isn't specifically coordinated. Administrators have taken a dim view of this sort of behavior, including when it comes to enforcing ARBAPDS. Yes, Coffee was responsible for some particularly aggressive enforcement, but that still doesn't change the underlying enforcement policy. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:58, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

We’ve come all this way without any explanation as to why the edit was considered BOLD to begin with, but instead the reverter demands that the editor explain why it isn’t BOLD. Thus the reverter succeeds in vetoing an edit by demanding others prove a negative, when the reverter hasn’t even justified the basis for the reversion. This might lead a reasonable person to conclude that the reversion is based on a false pretext, a ruse when no valid reason to revert is readily available. IMO, it’s GAMING. It’s IDONTLIKEIT. And why do I get the feeling that some guys are smirking and snickering as they read this? soibangla (talk) 02:17, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

@JFG: I got a warning after one damn edit? WTF?? Are you saying that 0RR applies now? This edit is UNDUE --rogerd (talk) 18:19, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, I did not mean to "warn" any of you. I just wanted to stop the edit-warring, and let people discuss the merits of the text in a proper thread below. — JFG ^talk 19:19, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

It isn't EW. Read the special restriction. X is right. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Soibangla (talk • contribs) 02:17, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

No, it is. Under the restrictions, any reversion that is again reverted can be considered edit warring. -- Scjessey (talk) 11:42, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

@MONGO: BRD is not a valid excuse for reverting good-faith efforts to improve a page simply because you don't like the changes; BRD is not a justification for imposing one's own view or for tendentious editing; BRD is never a reason for reverting. Unless the reversion is supported by policies, guidelines or common sense, the reversion is not part of BRD cycle soibangla (talk) 02:31, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

While it is true MONGO should've begun a discussion on this talk page after reverting, they did provide an explanation for their reversion in their edit summary:

"Undue for this BLP, perhaps in Presidency subarticle"

-- Scjessey (talk) 11:42, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

As I explained to MONGO in this thread, There are some edits in the subsection that probably don't belong there, but this particular edit isn't among them. I find it interesting that s/he finds the only "UNDUE" edit in the subsection to be the one that reports from multiple reliable sources on the actual outcomes of the tariffs now coming in, confirming that the warnings from the overwhelming consensus of reputable economists when the tariffs were proposed are now coming to pass. Trump calls himself Mr. Tariffs, it is his signature economic policy, he's been talking about it for 30+ years, and a brief discussion of the outcomes of that policy is DUE, while other edits in the subsection likely are not, yet no one ever called those edits UNDUE. soibangla (talk) 17:44, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Soibangla, in your edit summary here you stated that: "Although Trump has repeatedly asserted that his tariffs contribute to GDP growth, the consensus among analysts — including Trump's top economic advisor, Larry Kudlow — is that the Trump tariffs have had a small to moderately negative effect on GDP growth"...and the edit added the same passage. Indeed the sources do claim that economists believe Trump is wrong to say that increased tariffs have helped to increase the GDP, however, you framed it in a manner that suggests that Kudlow is in total disagreement with Trump on the tariff issue. Your factchecker source even clearly states Kudlow's full stance on the tariff situation is that, “a risk we should and can take without damaging our economy in any appreciable way” in order “to correct 20 years plus of unfair trading practices with China. We have had unfair trading practices all these years, and so in my judgment, the economic consequences are so small that the possible improvement in trade and exports and open markets for the United States, this is worthwhile doing, Kudlow said" here. We cannot just cherrypick portions of comments without putting them into their full context. THAT is exactly what tendentious editing IS. But all this gets back to my belief that this addition(s) are undue for this BLP...we must go into great depth to keep the section neutral and that causes us to stray away from following summary style. This is why we have subarticles dedicated to this sort of detail.--MONGO (talk) 19:11, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

I'm not cherrypicking, you are. Kudlow acknowledged that the White House estimates that increased tariffs on all Chinese goods would amount to “about two tenths of 1 percent of GDP, so it’s a very modest number." That's why my edit said it was a small or moderately negative effect. Contrary to what Trump has said, that tariffs contribute to GDP, Kudlow has said it has a negative effect, albeit a small one. "without damaging our economy in any appreciable way” does not mean "positive." soibangla (talk) 20:24, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

As I explained, other edits in the subsection may be UNDUE, particularly because they do not provide a comprehensive explanation of all the tariff actions, as the Economic Policy article does. Why haven't you reverted those? In contrast, Trump calls himself Mr. Tariffs, he has been urging tariffs for 30+ years, it is his signature economic policy, he claims the tariffs add to GDP which has nearly universally contradicted, including by his own top economic advisor, and now CNBC has actual data showing it the equivalent of a large tax increase. That is certainly due here. Golly, you think some partisans might not want that to be known here? soibangla (talk) 20:40, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Trump's tariff claims

This was removed:

Although Trump has repeatedly asserted that his tariffs contribute to GDP growth, the consensus among analysts — including Trump's top economic advisor, Larry Kudlow — is that the Trump tariffs have had a small to moderately negative effect on GDP growth. On several occasions, Trump also falsely said that import tariffs are paid by China into the U.S. Treasury—a claim also contradicted by Kudlow.

Sources

If there is good reason for removing this widely-reported material, I would like to hear it. Otherwise, I'm inclined to restore it. (BRD is not a valid reason for removing it.)- MrX 🖋 21:34, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Support If the article was less about his presidency, I'd say leave it out. As his presidency is included in general, and tariffs in particular, and the changing tariffs have had rather large effects on businesses, workers, and markets, it belongs. O3000 (talk) 21:50, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

We went over this already. It is UNDUE and nothing but cherrypicked one sided nothingness. It exists in the Presidency article where I already clarified these details and made sure Kudlows comments were put in proper perspective. If we go into this level of detail here we are not following Summary Style.--MONGO (talk) 23:59, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Not cherry picked. The first two Google search results for Trump tariffs are "Trump tariff increases hurting US businesses in China, survey says" and "Who pays Trump's tariffs, China or U.S. customers and companies?".

What is the "other side" to Trump's falsehood that China pay's US tariffs on Chinese exports?

What is the "proper perspective" for Kudlow's comments and why is that needed in this article?- MrX 🖋 11:13, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Why is it needed? A. For the purposes of neutrality. B. So the ratioanale for the tariffs can be placed in perspective. Do you really think Trump is imposing tariffs to destroy the economy deliberately? That is how the wording you came up with looks. In addition the fact that the tariffs will and have led to a shrinking Chinese dollar valuation means our exchange rate increases, and that increases our purchasing power on their goods. The fact that even most economists are talking about a 0.04% increase across the boards in the long haul is also omitted. My point is, simply slapping a negativism about Trump up to malign his policies without taking in the full ecominc forecast is not a neutral treatise of the issue and since we are trying to follow summary style here, going into the level of detail needed becomes undue. Now if you can figure out a way to present the tariff issue more neutrally I might agree. Can you summarize this in a manner that is more neutral?--MONGO (talk) 14:58, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

It's highly noteworthy that the President of the United States is either very uninformed about how tariffs work, or he is blatantly lying to the American public. I can't think of another time in history when president expressed such wanton ignorance of basic trade economics. It's far more important that recognizing Jerusalem, attempting and failing at detente with North Korea, and Scottish golf resorts. Also, still waiting to hear about the other side of China not paying export tariffs.- MrX 🖋 22:10, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

The full text on this issue in the Presidency article is: Analysis conducted by CNBC in May 2019 found that Trump "enacted tariffs equivalent to one of the largest tax increases in decades," while Tax Foundation and Tax Policy Center analyses found the tariffs could wipe out the benefits of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017 for many households. While Trump has repeatedly asserted that his tariffs contribute to GDP growth, the consensus among analysts — including Trump's top economic advisor, Larry Kudlow — is that the Trump tariffs have had a small to moderately negative effect on GDP growth. Kudlow was also quoted as being in support of the administrations efforts to renegotiate tariffs with China, stating that this is, “a risk we should and can take without damaging our economy in any appreciable way” in order “to correct 20 years plus of unfair trading practices with China.” Kudlow went on to state that, “We have had unfair trading practices all these years, and so in my judgment, the economic consequences are so small that the possible improvement in trade and exports and open markets for the United States, this is worthwhile doing,”.

And even this level of coverage is incomplete.--MONGO (talk) 15:40, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Sources

Kudlow is not the central topic.- MrX 🖋 22:10, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Speaking about cherry-picking. Found your clarified ... details—by searching for "Kudlow"—buried at the end of a section that is at least a dozen paragraphs long, with a link that doesn't work. This link (NYT) works; you used four long quotes from Kudlow's Fox News interview, but you didn't find this one worth mentioning: “In fact, both sides will pay,” Mr. Kudlow said on “Fox News Sunday.” “Both sides will suffer on this.” (but—in his judgment—no big deal, the economic consequences are so small that the possible improvement in trade and exports and open markets for the United States, this is worthwhile doing. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 13:33, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

That is where the additions were recently made to that article and my link worked for me and is the same one used a day prior.--MONGO (talk) 15:40, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

• Support the inclusion of this material. Tariffs are a key component of Trump's economic policy, so excluding their economic effects would be bizarre. In fact, doing so would give the false impression that Trump's tariffs are somehow good for the economy. -- Scjessey (talk) 10:59, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
• Support 2600:1702:2340:9470:31B2:15B8:E989:8543 (talk) 17:07, 22 May 2019 (UTC) — 2600:1702:2340:9470:31B2:15B8:E989:8543 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Support but trim way down. The content in dispute appears to address two related but separate issues: (1) the effects of tariffs, and (2) Trump's false statements about the effects of tariffs. (1) is appropriate for inclusion, (2) is not. The purpose of this article isn't to debunk Trump's bullshit, nor is it to describe the he-said, she-said between Trump's bullshit and the verifiable truth (playing into the Trump/Bannon "the media is the enemy of the people" paradigm). That stuff belongs in the "False statements" and "Relationship with the press" sections. The "Economy and trade" section, on the other hand, should ignore the bullshit and focus on the verifiable facts. R2 (bleep) 18:48, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

  Trump's level of competence and truthfulness are very important, and very biographical. I could care less about debunking anything.- MrX 🖋 22:14, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

  Got it. The issue about Trumps statement on the tariffs and the impact on the GDP are the focus apparently. See no reason to load up this BLP with forecasts and what-ifs that probably have no more reality to them than the forecasts that said the election of Trump would crash the stock markets cause an economic downturn and lead to increased unemployment.--MONGO (talk) 02:14, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Of course Trump's incompetence and untruthfulness are very important and very biographical. They're just not sufficiently on point in this particular section, in this particular article. We could veritably inundate the entire article with all of Trump's statements in every aspect of his life and presidency and how bullshit they are, but taken to an extreme it would violate WP:BALASPS. R2 (bleep) 18:49, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

• Support. The tariffs, the false claims about them, and their detrimental economic impact are all very widely sourced and the length is appropriate. The two separate references to Kudlow are a bit much (can't that be consolidated into a single sentence?) but that should be handled in the ordinary course of editing. Neutrality^talk 01:59, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
• Support but without the Kudlow remarks. Per Neutrality. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 02:32, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
• Support but without the Kudlow remarks Per Neutrality.</s This man's knowledge of economics is relevant. starship.paint (talk) 14:16, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

  Snooganssnoogans and Starship.paint. Would you support a single sentence about Kudlow's comments, as suggested by Neutrality, or do you think any mention of him has to be omitted entirely?- MrX 🖋

As in...?

Analysis conducted by CNBC in May 2019 found that Trump "enacted tariffs equivalent to one of the largest tax increases in decades," while Tax Foundation and Tax Policy Center analyses found the tariffs could wipe out the benefits of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017 for many households. Although Trump has repeatedly asserted that his tariffs contribute to GDP growth, the consensus among analysts — including Trump's top economic advisor, Larry Kudlow — is that the Trump tariffs have had a small to moderately negative effect on GDP growth. On several occasions, Trump also falsely said that import tariffs are paid by China into the U.S. Treasury—a claim also contradicted by Kudlow. soibangla (talk) 18:31, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

I don't think that addresses the concern that we should only mention Kudlow one time, or not at all.- MrX 🖋 22:25, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

MrX, I would omit Kudlow from the proposed sentences in this article. I would think that being a president who doesn’t listen to his aide is more relevant to the presidency article, while being a man who doesn’t know economics is relevant for both articles. starship.paint (talk) 23:53, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

User:MrX Please stop. This is in a BRD discussion above, it does not need another Re-re-revert. It does not need a separate thread, the it just needs some discussion of the poster with the reverter on the concerns and hopefully resolve it there. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 01:48, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose - has no lasting value, it's a prediction (CRYSTALBALL), and it's UNDUE. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 02:56, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

  The only portion of the proposed wording that reads like a prediction is Trump's repeated assertions that his tariffs contribute to GDP growth. But the fact that he said it is not a prediction. It actually happened.- MrX 🖋 18:27, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

  Oddly, the GDP is up since the tariffs. I also doubt this is related but seems the real issues about the tariffs are secondary to attempts to show a statement Trump made is not in concert with most economists and his economic advisor. The fact that Kudlow also feels Trump should try to rejig the tariffs with China and others is supported by Kudlow doesn't matter since that isn't neutral? Is that what you're saying?--MONGO (talk) 22:11, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

  Are you asking me or Atsme? If you're asking me, you will have to clarify the question because I don't understand how it relates to my previous comment.- MrX 🖋 15:13, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

Double vote
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Support leave it in 2600:1702:2340:9470:A8CE:3559:3D1A:475E (talk) 17:18, 23 May 2019 (UTC) Interesting that this IP and the IP above (2600:1702:2340:9470:31B2:15B8:E989:8543) both geolocate to same place and each has a total of one edit.--MONGO (talk) 22:02, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose as UNDUE. This article is a BLP about the person, the tariff information belongs in the Presidency of Donald Trump article. Mr Ernie (talk) 03:39, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

  That defies reason and evidence. This content is backed by dozens of sources from around the world, all of them about something Trump himself did or said. It has received sustained coverage for nearly three weeks. In fact, WP:DUEWEIGHT is quite clear that we have to include this to maintain a neutral POV.[6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16][17][18] We have 6487 words in this article under 'Presidency', but somehow 64 words about Trump's outlandish claim is undue. Trump lying to 300+ million Americans about a major economic issue is not even worth 1% of the space under Presidency in this article? - MrX 🖋 15:03, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

Tariffs have been a consistent theme of Trump the man for decades, not merely Trump the candidate/president recently, so that's why it's DUE for his BLP

• "Trump’s Love for Tariffs Began in Japan’s ’80s Boom"
• "Trump Forged His Ideas on Trade in the 1980s—and Never Deviated"
• "Over four decades, Trump’s one solid stance: A hard line on trade" soibangla (talk) 17:20, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose per Mr Ernie. Actually, this level of detail does not even belong in the (already very long) presidency article, but rather in the Economic policy of the Donald Trump administration and in China–United States trade war. If editors and sources believe that Trump's assertion is yet another egregious lie, then it belongs in the poorly-titled article Veracity of statements by Donald Trump. — JFG ^talk 08:03, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

• By that rationale, I can foresee a ton of upcoming cuts to the article, because if "detail" from one of Trump's most significant economic policies can be cut out, then so can detail for a host of other things far less important. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:00, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

Absolutely correct. soibangla (talk) 17:24, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

No, we don't POV fork content just because a few editors don't like it.- MrX 🖋 15:03, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

Can you create a neutral treatise about the tariffs and mostly avoid the analysis about Trump being, as in your response to MrErnie above, a liar? How do your prognosticators explain the GDP growth since the tariffs? Is stating that Kudlow disagrees with Trump in regards to the equation higher tariffs=GDP growth, not allowing Kudlows further comments from the same interview, that Kudlow supports Trumps efforts to rejig tariffs since the benefits outweigh the costs, have to be omitted? Is the goal to just show that Trump is a "liar" or a BLP policy following summary about the tariffs? Bottomline is taking only the portion of the interview where kudlow says the opposite of what Trump says and omitting the clarification is pure cherrypicking. By time we do make this a neutral addition, it becomes a very longish mess, and will be UNDUE.--MONGO (talk) 15:26, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

The content in discussion is a faithful reputation of the sources, and it helps contextualize the trade war material already covered in the article. If you know of a dozen or so sources that tie recent GDP gains to the tariffs, go a ahead write some copy and cite your sources. I would also suggest that people learn how to read sources. News articles have headlines and ledes, which show us what those sources deem to be important.

On the matter of goals, there is no imperative to show that Trump is a liar. What is important is how he has framed his trade war, and how that relates to the reality of the situation.- MrX 🖋 15:50, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

It is faithful to only portions of Kudlows comments. It omits the facts that Kudlow is in agreement with Trump Administration efforts to rejig the trade issues. It omits the mystifying fact that GDP has not in fact yet been adversely impacted. It omits the fact that the devaluation of the Yuan increases American dollar spending power, offsetting some of the "costs". It also doesn't examine why Trump has been engaged in a tariff dispute with China, one that addresses the balance of trade issue and also the intellectual property theft China has been engaged in that Trump wants to put an end to. We can't frame the issue here on this page in a manner that follows summary style. There is no reason this level of depth cannot be better served by being placed in an article dedicated to this sort of discussion as JFG and others have suggested. I will however offer wording within a day maybe we can all agree on as I do think some sort of tariff/trade discussion deserves some mention here.--MONGO (talk) 16:48, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

Maybe I'm missing something, but if we are discussing 1) Trump's claim that tariffs contribute to GDP growth, and 2) Trump's claim that China pays for the tariffs, then I don't understand why we would delve into Kudlow's comments about other things. I also don't see anything about devaluing the Yuan in the factcheck.org source. Are you refering to this in the CRS report?

With regard to the value of the U.S. dollar, as demand for foreign goods may fall in response to higher tariffs, U.S. demand for foreign currency may also fall, putting upward pressure on the relative exchange value of the dollar. This in turn would reduce demand for U.S. exports and increase demand for foreign imports, partly offsetting the effects of the tariffs.

If so, I don't understand how reduced demand for U.S. exports would boost the GDP (admittedly, I'm not an economist).- MrX 🖋 17:41, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

"Are Trump’s Tariffs Bolstering the U.S. Economy? Nope — The boost from trade in the first quarter looks like a blip" soibangla (talk) 17:49, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

The contribution of net exports to GDP is highly volatile from quarter to quarter. It's what economists call "noisy" data. For example, during the quarter after tariffs began, net exports added 1.2 percentage points to GDP, but the next quarter it subtracted 2.0 percentage points. The average since the tariffs began is 0.0 percentage points. soibangla (talk) 18:04, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

• Comment - wait until the trade war is over - see RECENTISM. Furthermore, GDP should be calculated annually, so if this is just a quarterly GDP - see RECENTISM. One last thing, it doesn't belong in his BLP - UNDUE. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 20:01, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

wait until the trade war is over Multiple reliable sources reported this week that Wall Street and companies are preparing for a protracted trade war; Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin said on Wednesday that he was personally questioning some of America’s largest companies about their plans for weathering the Trump administration’s trade war with China; Trump just gave farmers another $16 billion in aid

GDP should be calculated annually I agree that first quarter GDP growth of 3.2% does not establish the tariff policy is working, as some assert: the president turned to Mr. Navarro, who showed the senators a slide presentation that documented how the tariffs had helped lift first-quarter economic growth to 3.2 percent

it doesn't belong in his BLP:

Tariffs have been a consistent theme of Trump the man for decades, not merely Trump the candidate/president recently, so that's why it's DUE for his BLP

• "Trump’s Love for Tariffs Began in Japan’s ’80s Boom"
• "Trump Forged His Ideas on Trade in the 1980s—and Never Deviated"
• "Over four decades, Trump’s one solid stance: A hard line on trade" soibangla (talk) 21:58, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

  If tariffs have been a theme of Trump the man for decades, write about that, instead of picking one very recent tariff, the effects of which are still unfolding. Mr Ernie (talk) 08:54, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

• Support — I see MrX restored his edit per consensus, so does that also include restoring this original edit that got the reversions started, or do we have to vote on that, too? soibangla (talk) 02:51, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

soibangla, I don’t think your edit has been discussed properly. The discussion of MONGO’s removal, Scjessey’s subsequent reversion of Mongo’s removal of your edit about the tariffs being equivalent to a tax increase—and two additional reversions by other editors on procedural grounds—got mired in a procedural discussion which JFG seems to have tried to put back on track but unfortunately on a different track, i.e., the impact on U.S. consumers in general. As the NY Times Editorial Board says, … a tariff is a consumption tax, much like a sales tax, and such taxes tend to be regressive, meaning they cost lower-income families a larger share of their income than they cost upper-income families. MrX’s discussion on Trump claiming that the tariffs increase the GDP are a related, but different matter. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 07:09, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

Yes, the reversion of my original edit that initiated this long discussion appears to have slipped through the cracks. Unless another editor objects, I believe that original edit should be restored as well I will restore it. soibangla (talk) 18:54, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

Object. Post an Rfc to gain concensus for this.--MONGO (talk) 19:25, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

That didn’t come out right. I should have said that the titles of both discussions (Reversion explanation and Impact of tariffs on U.S. consumers) were misleading. It’s not just consumers who are affected through higher consumer prices but also businesses. What good is the tax cut to them if they go out of business because consumers can no longer afford to buy their products with the tariff/tax tacked on? I think juxtaposing the claims for the 2017 Tax and Jobs Act and for the tariffs is a valid point that hasn’t been addressed in the article. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 11:05, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

• Support inclusion without any mention of Kudlow. Is the restored sentence now open to normal editing? I’m late voicing my opinion because I had problems formulating my objection to mentioning Kudlow without violating BLP. Kudlow is not an analyst, he is a successful self-promoter whose "one Big Idea is supply-side economics"; he "attributes every positive economic indicator to lower taxes, and every piece of negative news to higher taxes," and he "has been spectacularly wrong on the biggest economic turning points in modern history." In line with his Big Idea, he saw the tariffs for what they are, a tax increase, and then—to please his current master—did some tap-dancing and spinning to arrive at his usual forecast of the other forecasts being all wrong and the tariffs being "a risk we should and can take without damaging our economy in any appreciable way." Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 11:05, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose per atsme, Mr Ernie and JFG. WP:UNDUE, subjective opinion; not saying this material has no place in Wikipedia, it is better suited to another D. Trump article e.g., the article about his presidency.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 11:43, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

TLDR

The above debate among learned editors about the finer points of international tariffs and their economic impact is no doubt interesting and relevant to the current U.S. administration's policy and China's reaction. I'm still puzzled that the focus seems to be on showing that Trump said something wrong yet again (in his BLP), rather than explaining what is actually unfolding and how various people represent it (which should happen in other articles). — JFG ^talk 14:47, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

That's been addressed. Trump has used his bully pulpit to personally promote his policy with blatantly false information, as he has frequently done in the past. In case you are not aware, that's also what autocrats do. It's historically unprecedented, reckless, and shows deep character flaw. If you think there is a better way to summarize this information, perhaps you can share it with us. I don't quite follow what you mean by ... how various people represent it". Could you elaborate?- MrX 🖋 17:02, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

I've met four Presidents and they all lied. Since the issue of Trump being a liar is all documented why we diviate from the facts of the tariffs to highlight the alleged lying is telling. What have the tariffs actually done that can be connected to any yet known economic disaster? All we have is forecasts and even those mainly look at what an escalation MIGHT do, based on past incidences.--MONGO (talk) 17:51, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

I believe I have done a fairly comprehensive job of explaining what is actually unfolding and how various people represent it, as well as why it is DUE for the BLP, but I have found the response to be strictly crickets. soibangla (talk) 17:18, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

Where did you suggest article text that explains the tariff situation and its representation? Reading your numerous comments on this talk page, I see you arguing that your first edit somehow wasn't bold, and listing many sources to support your assertion that Trump has been a "tariff man" for 30 years. What's missing is a proposed edit giving better context and balanced treatment. All of which is in my opinion undue for this biographical article. — JFG ^talk 11:32, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

If indeed Trump has been supportive of tariffs for many decades (which might be biographically significant), then why not just say that, instead of focusing on Trump's inaccurate details and Kudlow's apparent contradictions? — JFG ^talk 11:34, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

That’s your prerogative—no need to shout, dear. I'm still puzzled, 'though, how you know what the learned editors debated if you DR. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 10:37, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

I've read most of it, then skipped repetitive arguments and wrote this. — JFG ^talk 11:26, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

RfC: oldest and wealthiest

Should the lead section mention that Trump is the "oldest and wealthiest" president? — JFG ^talk 15:03, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

The current, longstanding phrase in paragraph 2 of the lead includes:

He became the oldest and wealthiest person ever to assume the presidency, and the first without prior military or government service.

I would suggest replacing this with:

He became the first president without prior military or government service.

In recent informal discussions, some editors have said those qualifiers are unimportant statistics best left to specialized articles such as List of presidents of the United States by age and List of Presidents of the United States by net worth instead of the lead section of Trump's BLP. It was also argued that "oldest" is ageist and "wealthiest" is vulgar, and that it all was "irrelevant trivia". In support of the inclusion, it was argued that those facts were well-covered during Trump's campaign, and that similar statistics appear in other presidents' biographies. This RfC aims to resolve the disagreement. — JFG ^talk 15:03, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

Survey: oldest and wealthiest

Please express your preference with Keep to preserve the status quo or with Delete to remove the "oldest and wealthiest" qualifiers. A brief rationale is welcome here. Longer arguments should go to the #Discussion: oldest and wealthiest section.

• Delete - I remember "oldest" and "wealthiest" were talking points during the election, but I honestly don't think they are biographically significant. Nor are they defining characteristics of his presidency. This is exactly the kind of trimming I would like to see more of in this article. Less is always more. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:21, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
• Delete – While Trump's lack of military or government experience is relevant to his presidency, and apparently unprecedented in the USA, his age and his wealth are mere trivia. Reagan was old too, and Washington was filthy rich for his day. — JFG ^talk 17:19, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
• Delete not at all defining characteristics and not lead-worthy, especially compared to his actions in office, though including in article body wouldn't be so bad. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 17:41, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
• Keep to preserve the status quo, no real reason to mess with a long-standing 2 year norm and what little stability this article has. Also, oldest and wealthiest seem to follow precedents of identifying characteristics in past presidents such as age remarks for Ronald Reagan or youth and religion of John F. Kennedy. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 06:00, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

* Keep - this is interesting information. He is a lot older than his immediate predecessors (though only slightly older than Reagan was as President). He also seems to be a lot wealthier than other President, according to the linked table. This is worth noting.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:04, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

• Delete on second thoughts. These are simply relative measures that will be out of date sooner or later. He is not likely to be the oldest President for long, given the increases in longevity. Wealth is hard to measure over time, and this is not particularly notable.--Jack Upland (talk) 22:06, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
• Keep - There is a long tradition to identify presidents according to records they hold in regards to their presidency. Ronald Reagan was widely reported to be the oldest back then, James Buchanan as the only bachelor to hold the office, John F. Kennedy as being the youngest to be elected and the only Catholic to be president, James Garfield as the last to be born in a log cabin etc. This sort of trivia exists for most presidents. One argument for deletion is that this information is well known to most readers because they refer to the current president, whose wealth and age are widely discussed in the media, but removing it now for being banal only to add it a few years later, when the information won't seem as obvious sounds unnecessary to me. PraiseVivec (talk) 16:05, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
• Delete per JFG. Gandydancer (talk) 17:08, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
• Delete - trivia. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 18:30, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
• Keep. The article Inauguration of Donald Trump conspicuously doesn't mention it, but that is not a reason to remove it here, because Presidency of Donald Trump#Transition period and inauguration mentions it (it is a WP:Summary style article). If anything, the Inauguration article should be changed to mention it in its lead. I believe that it should be kept here when similar leads, most notably that of Ronald Reagan, include such information. wumbolo ^^^ 21:12, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
• Keep - Although Reagan was much more well known for being the oldest president than Trump was, it still keeps things simple for the reader. The statements are neither trivial, nor do they add unnecessary fluff to the article that isn't notable or noteworthy.—Mythdon (talk • contribs) 02:43, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
• Delete. Neither of these items has received nearly as much attention in the reliable sources as the rest of the content in the lead section. I understand these superlatives have historical significance, but I highly doubt Trump will be known in 5, 10, 50 years for being the wealthiest or oldest president. He will likely be known for bringing his business background to the White House, but that's something substantially different. To be clear, however, I fully support having this material in the body of our article. R2 (bleep) 19:37, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
• Delete - Wealth qualifier is unconfirmed. No reliable source. Gerntrash (talk) 03:01, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
• Keep Oldest but delete wealthiest (Summoned by bot) His age is undeniable, his wealth is in dispute. Coretheapple (talk) 18:38, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

Discussion: oldest and wealthiest

@JFG: - some editors have opined that "oldest" is ageist and "wealthiest" is vulgar - Not to put too fine a point on it, but I don't see more than one editor saying either.[19] I'd ask that you edit that for accuracy. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:20, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

You are right, and in fairness only one editor highlighted the comparison with Reagan, Kennedy and Roosevelt's biographies.[20] The point is to show that those were arguments advanced in the discussion. I'll edit to avoid referring to a particular editor or group thereof. — JFG ^talk 15:27, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

• Comment I think oldest should be included because it was a common description for WH Harrison and Reagan. The "prior military or government service" is clumsy. All previous presidents had held either elected office as a congressman, senator or governor, or had served in the Cabinet or were generals. If Trump had worked as an election official, or had been in the National Guard, his lack of experience would still be relevant. Also, not sure if we was the wealthiest, particularly if inflation is taken into account. We don't even know if he has a positive net worth. TFD (talk) 20:59, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

I think "prior military or government service" was used in the media at the time. Does "government service" have a special meaning for Americans? Because I would have thought "military service" was "government service", and "government service" could include working as a clerk in the sanitation department.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:31, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

I vaguely recall some discussion about this. Military service may be government service in some sense, but that doesn't mean Americans would interpret the term that way. We would normally think of people working in city halls, state capitals, and Washington, not in military bases and foreign countries. The military take direction from their government but serve their country, and they are not the same thing. ―Mandruss ☎ 07:47, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

I also vaguely recall a discussion but I think it was more about whether what elected officials do should be called "service." Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 19:37, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps we could lift this ambiguity by replacing "service" with "experience". The target articles is called List of Presidents of the United States by previous experience. — JFG ^talk 19:51, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

I rephrased the sentence to make it adhere more closely to the sources. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 19:37, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

• I think, in general, statements about the "oldest" should be avoided. Given the steady increase in human longevity, we should expect US Presidents to be increasingly older and to live longer (like Jimmy Carter). This is not notable and not worth noting. However, in Trump's case he is significantly older than Obama etc. There has been speculation that this could be a factor in his Presidency, and he could be or become medically unfit.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:40, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
  • @Jack Upland: There'll be older presidents sure, but if we're just going to have a list of presidents by age anyway, we might as well make mention of it in the current president's article. It's more about simplicity than anything in my opinion. It's not like the US presidents articles are filled with tons of trivia as is.—Mythdon (talk • contribs) 02:47, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
• Delete I think those terms shouldn't stay in the paragraph, because belongs to the Peacock terms [21] and afect to the neutral point of view.--AnbyG (talk) 08:43, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

RfC: False statements

A recent discussion was archived without reaching a definite conclusion. Based on comments from various editors there, I am formally suggesting a change of the current wording, which was selected in the prior RfC about this subject, and is in my opinion unnecessarily wordy. — JFG ^talk 15:18, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

Current version:

Trump has made many false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency. The statements have been documented by fact-checkers, and the media have widely described the phenomenon as unprecedented in American politics.

Proposed version:

Fact-checkers have documented an unprecedented number of false or misleading statements during Trump's campaign and presidency.

— JFG ^talk 15:18, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

Amended proposal:

Fact-checkers have documented that Trump made an unprecedented number of false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency.

I am putting forward this amended proposal following remarks by several editors in the first day of the RfC. — JFG ^talk 11:14, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Survey: false statements

Please express your preference to Support or Oppose the proposed change, with a brief rationale. Longer arguments should go to the #Discussion: false statements section.

• Oppose - Trump's falsehoods are a defining characteristic of his presidency. Without gazing too deeply into the crystal ball, I think the Trump presidency will forever be associated with an astonishing level of mendacity. As such, I like the way the existing text spells this out a bit more assertively. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:34, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

  What happened to Less is always more?[22] Seriously, I think a shorter sentence is more impactful in asserting the issue. — JFG ^talk 15:39, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

Not at the expense of missing something important, obviously. Nothing is more important to Trump's biography than the thing that has defined him, and that's the fact that he likes to tell porky pies. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:05, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

In your proposed version the issue is that someone somewhere made a whole bunch of false or misleading statements while Trump was president. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 10:54, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. I have addressed this deficiency in the amended proposal above. — JFG ^talk 11:18, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

@JFG: Still oppose, I'm afraid. The existing text remains superior. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:38, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

• Too soon/Oppose - The passage in question is the result of an RfC that was open for more than a month a mere few months ago, focused exclusively on that little bit of content, and received over 10,000 words from over 30 editors. One of the precious few editors willing to spend their time doing uninvolved closes spent a considerable amount of it assessing that consensus and writing the close. The length of the passage was pointed out at the beginning of the proposal for it, lest anyone fail to consider it, and yet the passage received wide support. Thus the length argument has been duly rejected and it's not constructive to raise it again hoping for a different outcome. This is not how we should be spending our limited time. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:47, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose - The proposed wording obscures the fact that Trump made the false statements. That deviates far from almost every reliable source that has reported on the subject. We must be clear and direct. - MrX 🖋 16:22, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
  • I also oppose the amended proposal because it shifts the focus to fact checkers. I would support Neutrality's proposal, or something like "Trump has made an unprecedented number of false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency." - MrX 🖋 11:41, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
• Support The laundry lists of Trumps alleged deceptions is what is unprecedented.--MONGO (talk) 17:55, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose for the reasons states by Scjessey, Mandruss, and MrX, but I would favor a shorter "Trump has made many false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency, at a level unprecedented in American politics" if someone proposed that. Neutrality^talk 18:00, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

Neutrality - the statement "at a level unprecedented in American politics" would have to be attributed, otherwise we'd be treading in SYNTH territory or opinion rather than fact. The kind of coverage Trump has gotten is what's unprecedented, otherwise I would imagine the same could be said of a few former presidents. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 18:04, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

No, the reliable sources (not opinion pieces) directly support the "unprecedented" language, and this is a matter of fact rather opinion. Neutrality^talk 17:39, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

• Support — the current version attributes the assessment of unprecedented mendacity to the media, which plays into the "fake news" narrative (itself mendacious), while the proposed version attributes the assessment to fact-checkers. That said, Neutrality's proposed language would be even better. soibangla (talk) 18:08, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
• Doesn’t matter — Devoting so much contributor time to trivial matters like this contributes to outsiders’ perceptions of Wikipedia as largely dysfunctional on controversial subjects. Time to move on. Greg L (talk) 18:59, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose. Too vague. I support Neutrality's version over both of the proposed versions by OP. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 20:12, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose - let’s not revisit it yet again and so soon. The change in portrayal also seems unnecessary and not preceded by groundwork. I think lead edits like this one should be a discussion first to show interests and concerns, not this every time jump straight to an A/B choice RFC that has not done substantial prep work in TALK. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 06:30, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
• Support — the new version is shorter, to the point, and more neutral.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:23, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose per reasons stated by MrX, Scjessey, Mandruss, and Soibangla. I also think that Neutrality's version would be even better. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 10:50, 26 May 2019 (UTC) Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 17:43, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
• Comment – Following several remarks about the clarity of the sentence, I have amended the proposed text. @Scjessey, Mandruss, MrX, Neutrality, Snooganssnoogans, Markbassett, and Space4Time3Continuum2x: Could you reconsider your !votes in light of that? — JFG ^talk 11:17, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

No. The current longer version is accurate while ascribing the conclusion "unprecedented" to fact-checkers is not. I don't think that at this stage we need to point out that "fact-checkers documented" and "the media described" but, if we do it, we should do it accurately. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 13:32, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

This amended proposal also does not work for me for the reasons that Space4Time addressed above. I prefer my proposal above. Neutrality^talk 14:45, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

No, since mine is a process objection. The hard-won consensus content should be considered good enough that we can better spend this time on other things. That will always be my position in situations like this. Thanks for the ping. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:45, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

• Support for conciseness. — JFG ^talk 11:22, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

  I would also support "Media and academics have documented that…", per discussion below following Starship.paint's comments. — JFG ^talk 08:41, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

• Strong oppose to above proposed version - to say that Fact-checkers ... documented ... an unprecedented number is inaccurate. As one can see from the sources already in the article at Donald Trump#False statements (that's 305-315 at the time of this post, none of the sources describing unprecedented are fact-checkers. [23] / [24] [25] / [26] [27] / [28] / [29] / [30] / [31] / [32] Rather, they are academics or the media. I would instead add to the lede that The statements have been documented by fact-checkers; academics and the media have widely described the phenomenon as unprecedented in American politics. Alternatively, Neutrality's version is also okay. starship.paint (talk) 11:34, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

  After discussion with JFG below in the Discussion section, a version I would support is Media and academics have documented that Trump made an unprecedented number of false and misleading statements during his campaign and presidency. starship.paint (talk) 08:39, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

• Support - Honestly, I don't think the difference is that large between the two version, but while we're here, the proposed version has a small edge over the current one. This is mainly because it's more concise and because saying that something "was described by the media" gives fodder to the "fake news" crowd who will claim that this is a conspiracy against the president by the news media, rather than demonstrable and well documented facts. PraiseVivec (talk) 15:58, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
• Support - it says what needs to be said succinctly and in compliance with NPOV. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 16:49, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose - Neutrality offers a good choice for wording and Starship gives some good advise as well. Gandydancer (talk) 17:13, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
• Support - It's important to stay neutral. The current way seems like it's "Bashing" Trump. I don't care if you like or hate the man, the wording needs to be neutral.Gregnator (talk) 22:06, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose - current wording is clearer.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:24, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose - If the wording must be more precise, Neutrality's proposal is the most favorable and accurate. Teammm ^talk
  _email 01:56, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
• Support - the amended wording is less wordy and more neutral; yet still tries to convey the same meaning without trying to color the reader's opinion.—Mythdon (talk • contribs) 02:38, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
• Support. Conveys the same information more concisely and with more punch, which is always a good thing in such a dense article. Also slightly reduces the Trump-versus-the-media framing, which is contrary to our core policies. R2 (bleep) 19:15, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose: the original language is preferable; it's less weasely and matches sources better. --K.e.coffman (talk) 00:54, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose. I prefer the original wording. The new proposal obscures the fact that Trump made the false statements, as noted by MrX. --Tataral (talk) 03:04, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

Discussion: false statements

JFG, you made this proposal. Can you explain your decision to limit the description of an unprecedented number to fact-checkers, when the body of the article (and the sources) doesn't actually say that fact-checkers have said that? starship.paint (talk) 11:49, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

The original sentence says three things: 1) fact-checkers have documented a bunch of false and misleading statements by Trump; 2) the magnitude and raw count of false and misleading statements is unprecedented; 3) media have been pounding on this issue. My proposed version aims to simplify this state of affairs, and the original long-winded phrase, by focusing on points 1 and 2. You raise the issue that it's only media and academics that have used the "unprecedented" qualifier, I wasn't aware of that, and I'm pretty sure we can find fact-checker sources that use similar language. If I'm mistaken, then perhaps we should replace "unprecedented" with some other qualifier (staggering? unusual? unfathomable? just large?), but that would be a different discussion. — JFG ^talk 19:39, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I understand you want to simplify the sentence, but it seems it has lost its original meaning. I think fact-checkers are a subset of the media, and I don’t think there is very many of them that actively track Trump, probably less than seven? So I don’t see why we need to focus on fact-checkers when the wider media, plus the academics, have already given their descriptions. That’s already assuming you can find enough fact-checker sources to establish DUE weight. I note that there are two fact checker sources above (Kessler/Toronto’s Dale) but instead of putting unprecedented in their voice, they chose to quote other people. starship.paint (talk) 23:27, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

I think it’s basically three stating overall totals - Politifact of Tampa Bay Times, FactCheck.org of Annenberg center, and the Fact Checker of the Washington Post. The Toronto Star is also a player at a lower prominence. Not an really documented in detail or described methods. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 02:27, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Well okay, but if you were to look below, the sources in this article saying unprecedented aren't these three publications. starship.paint (talk) 02:40, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

@Mythdon: - could you read the below comment, thank you. starship.paint (talk) 09:39, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

@Soibangla, Jack Upland, PraiseVivec, Atsme, and Gregnator: - per your support votes, have you guys actually checked this article and the sources as to whether JFG's version is even accurate? In the sources from the article, which you can find below, they do not say Fact-checkers ... documented ... an unprecedented number. starship.paint (talk) 01:27, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

That’s a good catch, hadn’t noticed that. I’m striking my vote for now. soibangla (talk) 03:11, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Here's the academic sources for unprecedented: paper by Carole McGranahan, quote from "historians", quote from Michael R. Beschloss, quote from "White House scholars and other students of government" and George Edwards, quote from Douglas Brinkley, paper by Heidi Taksdal Skjeseth, paper by Donnel Stern. Which of these are fact checkers? starship.paint (talk) 01:52, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Here's the journalists / writer for media sources for unprecedented: Chris Cillizza, Susan Glasser, Maria Konnikova. Which of these are fact checkers? starship.paint (talk) 01:52, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

@Starship.paint: I hear you. So would you support "Media and academics have documented that Trump made an unprecedented number of false and misleading statements during his campaign and presidency"? I kept fact-checkers in there because they were prominently featured in arguments during the prior RfC. I'm personally fine putting Trump's statements in wikivoice instead of attributing them to anybody, but that would surely get much-stronger pushback. It's hard to achieve neutrality without weaseling. — JFG ^talk 11:49, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

@JFG: - I would support that. It does reflect the current body. By the way, I just found one fact-checker source on his unprecedented falsehoods as a presidential candidate. If you restart this ... consider wikivoice as a third option. starship.paint (talk) 13:45, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Good. I think this RfC is now too far underway to change anything, especially not adding a third option. But you could perhaps qualify your "strong oppose" in the survey section by stating that you would support the "media and academics" variant that we just discussed. I'll mention it next to my !vote as well. — JFG ^talk 08:37, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Done, added just below my vote. starship.paint (talk) 08:40, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Me too. 🤝 — JFG ^talk 08:45, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Tariffs equivalent to one of the largest tax increases in decades

This edit was reverted:

Analysis conducted by CNBC in May 2019 found that Trump "enacted tariffs equivalent to one of the largest tax increases in decades," while Tax Foundation and Tax Policy Center analyses found the tariffs could wipe out the benefits of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017 for many households.

After extensive discussion of the edit, plus two supplemental edits by me and MrX, consensus was reached that tariff information is relevant and DUE in the Trump BLP, and MrX restored part of the content. However, the original edit (above) that initiated this whole process may have fallen through the cracks during this extensive discussion, and there may be some question as to whether it was included in the reached consensus. Consequently I request a vote to explicitly restore the edit.

• Support — soibangla (talk) 18:54, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose More what-ifs and conjecture of mostly yet to be seen outcomes.--MONGO (talk) 07:34, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose There are many comparisons that could be made and no reason why these ones have weight. When combined with the income tax cuts, there is a net tax reduction, although the vast majority of Americans will see a net tax increase. I would just say that the tariffs are estimated to cost taxpayers $72 billion per year. TFD (talk) 09:58, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

  @The Four Deuces: - since you say There are many comparisons that could be made can you provide many examples in reliable sources providing different comparisons? starship.paint (talk) 11:42, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

I do not have to to. You need to show that the comparison cited is significant. TFD (talk) 11:59, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

• Support - My initial instinct was to say that this was too prognosticative and detailed, but after reading the sources (of which more are available), I think we need to include this for NPOV reasons because of how extensively we already cover the tax cut legislation in this article:

1. In the lead: "He enacted a tax cut package for individuals and businesses,"
2. "Trump had asserted that a policy of tax cuts and deregulation would result in 3% annualized GDP growth, and perhaps much higher,..."
3. Entire paragraph that begins "In December 2017, Trump signed the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017,..."

I know we are concerned about article length, so I suggest we look at condensing paragraphs 4, 5 and the first part of 6 under 'Economy and trade' to make room for the 50 words proposed.- MrX 🖋 12:06, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose - none of the information regarding details of his presidency belong in his BLP - they belong in Presidency of Donald Trump, and from there, possibly into spin-off articles about specific (his most notable) policy decisions. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 17:07, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Accordingly, I look forward to your edits that will cut the article size in half. soibangla (talk) 18:59, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

• Comment – @Soibangla: If you mean this thread to be a RfC, you should add the required {{rfc}} tag, which will trigger the automated process and notifications. If you mean it just as a local informal survey, then please remove "RfC:" from the thread title. — JFG ^talk 19:31, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

  I've removed "RfC:" from the heading. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:41, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

I don't know how to use that tag. I'd appreciate if you could add it so I can see what it looks like and I will comply in the future. soibangla (talk) 22:00, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

@Soibangla: Per WP:RFCBEFORE, an RfC would be premature at this juncture. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:11, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose - as said before, there is relatively minute WEIGHT for the particular item, it is SPECULATION, and really not biographical but more a Presidency line. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 02:58, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
• Support - well supported by sources.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:26, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose – It's opinion, and it's the wrong article. Go to Economic policy of the Donald Trump administration, Trump tariffs and China–United States trade war. — JFG ^talk 11:51, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
• Support. Here's another source saying the tariffs are a pretty huge tax hike which was passed on to Americans just about 100 percent. The same Slate journalist (now that we're all Slate fans) also reported that on top of that the tariffs didn't reduce the trade deficit. On the contrary, the trade deficit increased, hitting a 10-year high last December. (Aside to JFG and Atsme: Which is it, Economic policy of the Donald Trump administration or Presidency of Donald Trump? How about Foreign policy? What exactly are the criteria for including or excluding things Trump has done as president from his BLP? A subject can be covered in more detail in a child article but it still should get mentioned here.) Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 18:46, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Trump's "best economy in history"

MONGO reverted this edit because "stocks are higher than ever...unemployment is lower than in last 50 years," despite the facts that:

• The Obama market outperformed the Trump market, reaching all-time record highs 103 times between March 5, 2013 and election day 2016 (I have that data on a spreadsheet somewhere, if anyone would like to see it)

• The unemployment rate had been declining steadily for seven years before Trump was elected, contrary to efforts by some to make it seem that Trump became president and flipped a magic switch to cause unemployment to suddenly drop.

• And anyway, the edit contains eight cites from a reliable source showing that Trump's assertions are false. And that's what we rely on here: reliable sources.

I recommend the edit be restored. soibangla (talk) 18:23, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Both Trump's declarations, MONGO's assertion and Soibangla's sources are opinion about the health of the economy and the respective attribution to the Obama or Trump presidencies. The economy is always good or bad, best or worst, by some measure. Best leave all opinion out. — JFG ^talk 19:46, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

There isn't even a definition of "best economy" as it would have to include the how likely a recession will occur and how resiliently it will perform once the inevitable recession does. Which is only a comment, not an argument for or against inclusion. O3000 (talk) 19:50, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

This is not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of a RS reporting the assertions as false — eight times. But anyway, by every metric a reasonable person can name — GDP, job creation, wage growth, earnings growth, stock market, unemployment rate, labor participation, you name it — we are most certainly not in the best economy in American history, not by a long shot. "By just about any important measure, the economy today is not doing as well as it did under Presidents Dwight D. Eisenhower, Lyndon B. Johnson and Bill Clinton — and Ulysses S. Grant" soibangla (talk) 22:22, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Per Wikipedia policy, report what reliable sources say, subject to WEIGHT. If MONGO wishes to include a different viewpoint with sufficient sourcing, he is free to do so. Leave personal political analysis out of it; that is not our job. That said, it did seem odd to me that all eight cites were from AP. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:06, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

I reported what RS said, MONGO cited specific metrics that are easily debunked. I can produce other reliable sources if desired, but I figured that AP is considered perhaps the most anodyne source that is rarely if ever challenged as "fake news." soibangla (talk) 22:13, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Based on what you've said, I'm curious to know if editors think MONGO reverted because he should — or because he could. soibangla (talk) 22:47, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

I don't know that it matters what we think about that.

Maybe I haven't been clear: Your content is a fair reflection of adequate sourcing per WEIGHT, and should therefore remain in. MONGO is free to add an alternative viewpoint if he can produce adequate sourcing per WEIGHT. Then we can discuss to what extent it's appropriate to use wiki voice. To date, MONGO hasn't produced anything but his own view of the political situation. Nor has anybody else in this thread, except you. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:59, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

his own view of the political situation is not sufficient grounds to revert and force another editor into WP:ONUS. If I'm not mistaken, you recently called into question whether MONGO should be permitted to edit American politics articles. soibangla (talk) 23:15, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

I think I once said that I would support a topic ban if MONGO were taken to AE. He has not been taken to AE, and this is not the place to discuss such things (I said that on a user talk page, not in article talk).

As I understand the process, pretty much anything is sufficient grounds for a revert that doesn't violate the explicit rules, and an editor who repeatedly abuses that freedom should be taken to AE. I also understand that the system is messy, inconsistent, and unreliable, the natural and inevitable result of self-selected self-governance. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:27, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Soibangla - find other sources to mix it up (I’m sure WaPo cited best economy as one of Trump’s most repeated falsehoods) and I’ll add it back as DUE material. starship.paint (talk) 22:57, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

"President Trump’s repeated claim: 'The greatest economy in the history of our country’" soibangla (talk) 23:06, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Thank you Soibangla. Now, if you could find even more of other sources, or at least find other reliable sources citing AP, then I think you would strengthen your claim on DUE weight, due to a range of sources rather than only two at the moment. starship.paint (talk) 23:33, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Will three do? Trump Says the U.S. Economy Is the ‘Greatest’ Ever. It’s Not soibangla (talk) 23:42, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Eight will, and it's done, Soibangla. I've reinserted the material [33] after I found five more sources (Yahoo, LA Times, Stuff, Newsweek, CNBC) to go along with AP, WaPo and Bloomberg. starship.paint (talk) 00:58, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Do we really need to report - in this already-huge biography - every time he makes one of these ridiculous claims? This is "the greatest economy in history". He's had "the most successful first two years of any president in history". He signed "the biggest tax cut in history". He had "the largest inaugural crowd in history". He won "perhaps the greatest election of all time". He is "the healthiest individual ever to assume the presidency". IMO we shouldn't clutter up his biography with these things. Put them in the Presidency of Donald Trump article, or the Economic policy article. -- MelanieN (talk) 00:21, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Agree that it belongs in a sub-article. Besides, I won the greatest election of all time when I was unanimously voted most handsome man in my apartment. O3000 (talk) 00:29, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

We'll put it in your article. -- MelanieN (talk) 00:33, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Citation needed. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:00, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Where's the subpoena? O3000 (talk) 01:01, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Would we put it in this article had he actually had the best economy? I'm sure we would, that's an extremely significant achievement, even if it was that he just didn't bungle up what Obama started. By that metric, we should also put in this article that he has repeatedly lied about having the best economy. starship.paint (talk) 01:05, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

I've reinserted the material [34] after I found five more sources (Yahoo, LA Times, Stuff, Newsweek, CNBC) to go along with AP, WaPo and Bloomberg. Mandruss - this will appease your caution on the over-reliance on AP. starship.paint (talk) 00:58, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

See the NYTimes article which was cited by IBD. A few others include Hill, and CNBC. The simple facts (not opinions): "GDP growth in the first nine quarters of the Trump presidency has averaged 2.77%—versus 2.3% over the 16 quarters of Barack Obama's" and so on. An interesting note - the May 10th article in The Nation. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 03:07, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Not really pertinent to the question at hand. Find us eight reliable sources that say this is the best economy in American history, and we can talk. That's what Trump has been saying over and over. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:19, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Atsme - your NYT article is from Aug. 6, 2016 before Trump was ever president. Which of your sources argue that this is the best economy in history - as is the title of this section? starship.paint (talk) 03:32, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

• JUST THE FACTS PLEASE - somehow instead of being about economy facts and mentioning major news items the record low unemployment, the record stock market, the record GDP level and continuing 10 years of growth .... this is casting things into the gossip channel and telling about critics nit-picking over hyperbole. If it’s not all deleted as non-biographical, need some perspective here, and observance of WEIGHT. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 03:49, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

  FACT - Trump has repeatedly called his economy the best ever. FACT - reliable sources disagree that it is the best ever. Would you like to provide reliable sources on how the GDP and stocks are at their highest level ever, and that unemployment is at its lowest level ever? starship.paint (talk) 04:03, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

• Please stick to ECONOMIC facts, as well as perspective and WEIGHT. Critics nit-picking speeches are not big WEIGHT compared to the missing economic stories, and not deserving of lead position. Markbassett (talk) 04:24, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

• Found a source saying [35] the unemployment rate was as low as 2.5 percent in 1953 ... The GDP is the broadest measure of the economy ... In 1950 and 1951, it was 8.7 and 8 percent, respectively. Does Trump beat that? Found a source [36] quoting Trump's claim for the record stock market, it says We’ll also note that it’s unclear how valuable the stock market is as a gauge of the country’s economic health. Not every American is invested, so it’s probably not the most important economic metric. starship.paint (talk) 04:14, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

" In 1950 and 1951, it was 8.7 and 8 percent" - careful, you're talking about GDP growth, not actual GDP.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:29, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

• Irrelevant to this discussion. Nobody has to "prove" anything except what RS says – specifically about strongest economy in U.S. history, not individual cherry-picked metrics. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:17, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

  User:Starship.paint OK, so let’s talk the RS phrasing on that then ... it would be something like “In the second year of President Trump’s term, unemployment declined to historic low levels unprecedented in modern history or 70-year low in national unemployment; and lowest unemployment ever measured for blacks, 19 states, and certain labor categories.” Obviously many sites, highly significant, and major WEIGHT. How about I post it phrased like that ? Markbassett (talk) 04:42, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

  Markbassett - Unprecedented ... modern - not okay, misleading, vague. 70-year low - okay. 19 states, labor categories - list them, vague otherwise. Assuming you have the sources. I seem to remember the blacks unemployment being (jointly?) attributed to Obama - will add if sources say so. starship.paint (talk) 05:00, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

  Ok, Sgt. Friday. Fact 1: Trump has repeatedly said this is the strongest economy in U.S. history. Fact 2: We have 8 reliable sources that say that is not true. Which fact do you dispute?

  As for WEIGHT, I think it's time you learned what that means. WP:WEIGHT speaks of "the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources" – not about our personal opinions about the relative importance of those viewpoints. There is nothing in WEIGHT or any policy that says we can choose to ignore anything said in RS in sufficient quantity. We routinely include things with considerably less than eight independent sources, so you have no WEIGHT basis to oppose this content. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:10, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

  Well aware of what WEIGHT means and that is not the rationale for my revert. I feel such additions belong in daughter's articles not in the mainline BLP. My edit summary is accurate however, as stocks are at the highest point and unemployment is at a 50 year low [37], [38]. Whether this happened due to Obama or Trump policies isn't the point as they happened during Trumps administration. I notice Soibangla did add this same material elsewhere as they did here and here, and, believe it or not also here, yet I did not remove it from those articles. Why is this same material in 4 different articles? ...why do we have daughter articles if the same material is going to be found in every related article? It defeats the purpose of having spinoffs.--MONGO (talk) 04:19, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

By stock market, I assume you mean the Dow. The Dows only measures 30 of the 28 million businesses in the US. And, companies among those 30 that fall on hard times are replaced by companies that are performing better, like GE last year. And the stock prices of these companies can be improved with stock buybacks, which are now quite common due to repatriated foreign cash. This is a poor measure of the economy. O3000 (talk) 16:00, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

@MONGO and Objective3000: - stock market highs are not uncommon. [39] Yahoo! Finance analysed the presidents since 1980, and every one of them had record stock market highs. Bushes had under 50, Obama and Reagan had over 100, Clinton had over 200. The source further says: It’s a bit silly to gauge a president’s mettle by the number of stock-market highs, since the stock market consistently hits new highs as the economy grows. “In a rising market, you will see new highs on a regular basis,” Brad McMillan of Commonwealth Financial Network wrote to clients on April 24 starship.paint (talk) 00:39, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

WP:WEIGHT being all viewpoints in proportion to their prominence, the views on the state of the U.S. economy are in 170 Million cites ... the eight about nit-picking a Trump speech just are not DUE any mention. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 02:46, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Excellent, let's remove everything with eight cites or less from this article, given that there are 1 billion Google hits for Donald Trump, eight is surely nitpicking. To even be a significant minority viewpoint, I propose a percentage of 5 %, so we need about 50 million cites per sentence. starship.paint (talk) 00:31, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

• FACT: the first cited source (Yahoo News) used for the restored material states: As is often the case, President Trump is half-right. We say what the RS say. The material that was restored doesn't say he was half-right, nor does it mention anything about him being right about anything. It's all criticism and speculation which is noncompliant with NPOV because half the information that belongs has been omitted. Further, much of the material that was restored is UNDUE because there is no way to determine what the tariffs (global trade) will do until his term is over. Trump has only completed a little more than half of his term. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 04:27, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

  Atsme - have you read beyond the first line of that Yahoo! Finance article [40]? The fourth and fifth lines say But he’s going way overboard when he insists that, “in many ways this is the greatest economy in the history of America.” It’s not, and the reasons why matter—because they might be the rumblings of the next recession. Come on. I'm truly astonished. Further down, Our current grade on the Trumponomics report card is a solid B. Since Trump is claiming historical superiority, we’ll tell you exactly where he stands ... 3rd ... second ... third ... third ... third ... third - starship.paint (talk) 04:35, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

  ?.. “in many ways this is the greatest economy” seems a modest claim that is factually true, “many” meaning you could come up with 5 or 6. (That there are also many ways it isn’t the greatest can also be true, same reason). Markbassett (talk) 05:13, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

  So Yahoo! Finance says It’s not, and you, citing nothing, says it is. starship.paint (talk) 05:37, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

  ??? Don’t be silly. You know perfectly well major items like this millions of cites, far greater WEIGHT than the speech nit-picking. The stock market records are repeatedly in WSJ, Barron’s, CNBC, Yahoo, etcetera many others, for each of the dozens of times it hit a new high. That unemployment is the lowest ever measured for blacks, Latinos, and Asian Americans is similarly BLS.gov covered by AP, Bloomberg, CBS, CNBC, CNN, .... Cites would be with the edit, picking a couple BESTSOURCES may be hard only because with so many highly authoritative and large it’s a tough call. Markbassett (talk) 15:17, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

  @Markbassett: - stock market highs are not uncommon, they are in fact, very regular given a growing economy. [41] Yahoo! Finance analysed the presidents since 1980, and every single one of them had record stock market highs. Bushes had under 50, Obama and Reagan had over 100, Clinton had over 200. The source further says: It’s a bit silly to gauge a president’s mettle by the number of stock-market highs, since the stock market consistently hits new highs as the economy grows. “In a rising market, you will see new highs on a regular basis,” Brad McMillan of Commonwealth Financial Network wrote to clients on April 24 starship.paint (talk) 00:44, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

  Did these UE rates suddenly decline when Trump became president? soibangla (talk) 18:28, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

  User:Starship.paint Yes, stock market is one of the “in many ways this is the best economy in history”. Thank you for the article which says ‘Trump has had more record highs in his first 2 years than any other’, with a whopping 37% increase in the first year from Election - called the Trump stock market rally. Yes, before this record high others had record highs, such is the nature of records. At the moment Trump likes touting that the economy is great, speech critics nit-pick about that, and WP for BLP should JUST REPORT THE FACTS PLEASE, and not report just the gossipy or the spinning. Are you proposing to put in content about the market? As previously posted, I’ll maybe try to put up unemployment numbers, but am doing other things first, so go ahead and propose. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 12:29, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

  You can add that, and I'll add in the same source saying It’s a bit silly to gauge a president’s mettle by the number of stock-market highs, since the stock market consistently hits new highs as the economy grows. starship.paint (talk) 12:58, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

  S&P500 after 640 trading days since election days, through yesterday: Obama — up 32.6%, Trump — up 30.1%. After 591 trading days since inauguration days: Obama — up 63.5%, Trump — up 22.5%. Google spreadsheet upon request. soibangla (talk) 17:46, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

• ^^^^That. But even if you were correct: Per WEIGHT, I don't think we're going to include content saying that one of the 8 sources says Trump has been only half-lying. We stick to prominence in RS and leave other reasoning out of it. We don't look at what one source says and argue that it says something equally important to seven that don't say that. That judgment is not ours to make. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:39, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

• Per BALANCE/NPOV we include all relevant views, and we don't use only those RS that support the same view when there are other RS that support a different view. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 04:49, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

  Please make visible these RS that support a different view (that Trump’s economy is the best in history). I don’t see any. starship.paint (talk) 04:51, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

  Did you really restore this within the minimal 24 hour discussion period? The wording in the banner is a bit vague so I am unclear if it means no one can restore it, or only the original editor cannot do so. Please correct me if I am mistaken and I do see you added further references...nevertheless, what is the rush, especially since we have I believe 5 editors who oppose it even being here and only three supporting it so far. I see MelanieN also thought it should be in another article, yet did move it to a different location in the section.--MONGO (talk) 05:46, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

  Banner says "one revert per editor per article per 24-hour period". If I violated 1RR, let me know so I can correct it. Banner said If an edit you make is challenged by reversion. The original edit wasn't by me, and I've added different sources anyway, so it's not a wholesale revert. If this needs to be an RfC, let us know. starship.paint (talk) 07:25, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

  Do you think there is as yet a consensus for the restoration as I don't yet see it. I think without one re-adding it even with more cites makes this an issue deserving an Rfc.--MONGO (talk) 07:56, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

I support it. Who are the five that supposedly oppose it? Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:54, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Myself, Atsme, 0300, MelanieN and Markbassett, the latter two, MelanieN ended up moving it after starship.paint restored it and markbassett may not possibly one way or the other as they have not made it clear, but seems to be arguing against it. Why is this material in 4 different articles, all added by Soibangla with this one added last? If it already appeared elsewhere, all added the same day, why is it parroted here too.--MONGO (talk) 06:10, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

So if something appears on other articles it can't appear here? Perhaps it simply deserves to be on all these articles. If any president had his country's best economy ever, I would support the material on their personal page. If any president repeatedly boasted about having his country's best economy ever and were rebuked by many reliable sources, I would also support that material on their personal page. starship.paint (talk) 07:25, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Makes little sense to be parroting the same material on multiple articles that are spinoffs to keep related material together. This is the reason we have daughter articles. A review of summary style might help.--MONGO (talk) 07:56, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Cool, so this article should not include anything that's in one of the sub-articles. I'm for that, so when do we start gutting this article and reducing it to about 40% of its current size? I mean, either we do that or your argument falls flat on its face, which is it? ―Mandruss ☎ 08:07, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

A. Not what I said. B. Follow summary style. This article as MelanieN already stated is bloated. Its bloated by constant coatracking and it is bloated at 430k kilobytes...we keep posting material at 3,4,5 different articles that is all the same we might as well redirect all of those back here and just have one 2 million KB mess.--MONGO (talk) 08:44, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

On this list here this article is the 38th longest on the pedia. I do recognize however that this one has a lot of bytes dedicated to referencing.--MONGO (talk) 08:55, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

I have long argued that the article should not include anything that will not belong here in about 20 years. Not only does that result in severe bloat, but it helps make the article a political battleground. Most editors on both ends of the spectrum—whether they admit it or not—whether they realize it or not—advocate or oppose content here on the basis of how it might affect public opinion, and particularly the 2020 election.

I have warned about the slippery slope that results from the absence of a bright line rule backed by consensus, and I have been advised not to worry about it. So I haven't worried about it much (out loud), and this is the result. My point is that the problem is far larger than one sentence, and we can't address it one proposed new sentence at a time. As long as the article includes anything of this nature, there is no bloat rationale for omitting one more instance of it. Just curious, how many times have you made a bloat argument against Trump-favorable content? ―Mandruss ☎ 09:11, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Show me a clear consensus this material belongs in the article without resulting to specious comments and inquires about ones intent. An Rfc would do.--MONGO (talk) 15:21, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Why are we discussing the Economic history of the United States in this article? We have a specific article for such data. And Trump is simply using hyperbole to gain some political support, he is not comparing financial data to compare the current economy with that of any other presidential administration since 1789. Dimadick (talk) 08:16, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

We are not discussing the Economic history of the United States; rather, those who are shouldn't be, since that is not what the disputed content is about. Instead, we are discussing the article's subject individual making repeated claims about the economic history of the United States that, according to a sufficient number of reliable sources, are false. And it is not our job to second-guess reliable sources, debating things like hyperbole to gain some political support, but rather to report what they say, provided they say it in sufficient numbers. That's what Wikipedia policy says. The numbers are more than sufficient, or a good 20% of the article needs to go. ―Mandruss ☎ 08:24, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

I'm counting 15,000+ words that have main articles elsewhere. The article without footnotes and references is less than 18,000 words. Cutting everything with main articles elsewhere wouldn't even leave you with 20%. Here's the remaining sections with a total of around 2,000 words: Early life and education, Religion, Conflicts of interest (business), Professional wrestling, The Apprentice, Radio and television commentary, Political activities up to 2015, 2012 presidential speculation, 2013–2015 (political career) and 2019 House investigation. starship.paint (talk) 08:51, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Getting rid of about 80% of current content sounds about right, though I’d have guessed 50% for where one gets by looking at the easily questionable - anything not biographical, or not a major news item more than a 1-week wonder, gossip quotefarms, excessively wordy phrasing’s... all the bloat with trivia or detail stuff already covered elsewhere. It might work best to set some minimum guidelines for what can stay, and then it would be both a cutting guide and a filter against rebloating. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 15:33, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

• I agree with a whole bunch of editors here that this material shouldn't be included in this article. Every time Trump says something false or outlandish, the media jump, not because of the subject matter but because fact checking is their job. Fact checking is not our job because we are not a newspaper. Therefore, the fact that these statements are covered by news media doesn't bear much on whether they're sufficiently noteworthy for inclusion. For the most part, they're not. The section of this article about the economy under the Trump administration should be about that, the actual economy and not the relatively inconsequential things that Trump says about it. R2 (bleep) 19:28, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

  Every time Trump says something false or outlandish, the media jump, not because of the subject matter but because fact checking is their job. - not really, he’s said this over 134 times and this is his 4th most repeated falsehood (per WaPo source here) and the media doesn’t jump every time. Furthermore, it is a big lie, because if it were actually true and reliable sources said Trump had the best economy, we would include it in the article. starship.paint (talk) 23:39, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

  The economy is arguably the only thing keeping his approval rating above 30%. It's not inconsequential that he keeps repeating it's the best economy ever, many people blindly believe it. And not only isn't it the best economy ever, it isn't even the best economy since 2012. soibangla (talk) 00:12, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

  ? That actually offers evidence of Trump being right. It shows GDP this year being a record — more than Trump’s first year, which was more than the Obama’s best year, etcetera. “Best” GDP ever. And p.s. think that 42% approval is of his actions, and/or style... eh, tastes vary... because Quinnipiac poll says he’s not getting credit for the economy. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 03:06, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

It shows GDP this year being a record...more than the Obama’s best year No. It. Does. Not. soibangla (talk) 17:24, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

?? Just pointing out the mathematical fact. GDP Grew every year of Obama then grew for the 2 years after Obama = GDP now more than Obama ever had. GDP usually grows, that’s why it could be considered one of the “in many ways” this is the best U.S. economy in history. If you look for records that support the claim, you find some exist. That critics chose instead to seek ways it is not is also possible - that would not disprove the statement Trump made, it would only disprove if the claim had been “in ALL ways”. But again, WP should not be promoting here, it should just state the facts please. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 12:51, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

I cannot begin to describe how many ways your "analysis" of GDP now more than Obama ever had is deeply flawed, so I won't even start. Just take a glance at this chart and tell me again why a record level of GDP is noteworthy. soibangla (talk) 17:28, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

User:Soibangla ???? How are you seeing what’s shown there as a negative or as a suspect “analysis” and not simple mathematical fact? That source to me is an even clearer and very authoritative showing of what I said about the table of continuous positives “It shows this year GDP as being a record, higher than Trump’s first year, which was more than Obama’s best year, etcetera. “Best” GDP ever.” 18.9 trillion chart on right side is higher than 18.3 a year before, is higher than 17.8 the year before, etcetera. Look, you offered a weblink and said it showed Trump wrong ... but I pointed out it instead supports Trump... how are you feeling this doesn’t show highest GDP ever or that highest GDP would not be evidence towards Trump being right ???? Very puzzled be adamant ‘no it doesn’t’ and how/why you feel second source disproves that. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 23:53, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

►facepalm◄ soibangla (talk) 00:05, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

Please stop adding your own WP:OR. Why do you think GDP is the sole measurement of economy? Why do you think the highest GDP means anything about the state of the economy since it naturally grows over time, just as the population grows. Why would consider anything in the realm of economics “mathematical fact” when economists have so much disagreement? Where is the preponderance of reliable sources? O3000 (talk) 00:06, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

User:Soibangla you’re making no sense - it was you who put a link to chart of all-growing GDP as a Trump negative, I simply put up a “?” And said that actually it supports Trump ... Your vehement ‘no it does not’ and saying ‘GDP now higher than Obama ever had is wrong’ and giving me an even more obvious chart showing it IS now higher than Obama ever had just got even more ???? marks. Look, simple fact GDP is higher now than prior years, mathematically 18 is more than 17 - that’s not “analysis”, that’s not “OR”, accept that’s simple fact being shown by the cites you’re putting forward yet saying they somehow do not show this. I have no idea how you’re getting that backwards into up is down. I don’t absolutely need to — while very puzzled on how you’re not seeing this as up is up, or simple fact as simple fact, just note that claims that table or chart is negative got pushback and move along. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 22:57, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

There is no longer any way I can attempt to communicate with you without engaging in personal attacks about your competence and motives. Goodbye. soibangla (talk) 23:05, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

Ok, I looked into this further and agree with you, Soibangla, in light of the fact that this isn't an isolated tweet but a pattern of tweets that, as a pattern, have received a lot of media attention. However, I believe that this sentence about Trump's false tweets shouldn't lead the paragraph. The paragraph should start with a summary of the economy under Trump and proceed to verifiable details. Trump's statements can come after that, clearly indicating that they're false, followed by a phrase or sentence about how some Americans are being misled (if reliably sourced, of course). And Markbassett, if you're going to disrupt discussions with falsehoods like that then there's a conduct problem. I urge you to provide some credible evidence, or strike your comment. R2 (bleep) 19:14, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Twitter followers

Mgasparin [42] - does your source actually back up that and as of 2019 he has one of the highest numbers of Twitter followers ever? I don't think they said that? starship.paint (talk) 13:49, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Trump is currently #13 in worldwide followers, at 60+ million just behind Kim Kardashian, per our article List of most-followed Twitter accounts, and its main source.[43] Not really "one of the highest numbers", but not too shabby either. — JFG ^talk 16:23, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Wasn't there an RfC a few months ago in which the consensus was that we shouldn't include content about numbers of Twitter followers without independent secondary sourcing, since follower counts are so easily manipulated? R2 (bleep) 19:19, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

If he’s 13th we could add “13th as of May 2019”. Or “top 15/20 as of May 2019”. starship.paint (talk) 23:36, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

At least one analysis found Trump has more fake followers than any other major political tweeter. Russian bots, doncha know. soibangla (talk) 01:43, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

• soibangla - needs a reliable source. starship.paint (talk) 02:27, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Slate article

Just putting this here since I don't see that it's been mentioned yet. Courtesy ping to those mentioned in the article (since I figure I'd want to be notified): @MrX, Power~enwiki, Mandruss, AmYisroelChai, Awilley, Scjessey, JFG, Atsme, MelanieN, Snow Rise, and HiLo48: (sorry if I missed someone). — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 22:43, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

JFG since you talked to them - maybe you can tell Slate to correct Instead, administrators with special editing privileges weigh the quality of the arguments made on both sides against Wikipedia’s editorial policies on things like neutrality and reliable sourcing, and make a decision. starship.paint (talk) 23:34, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Starship, that isn't far off. Most articles about us do far worse. -- MelanieN (talk) 23:47, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Nevetheless, it can be improved. Just like our articles. Ha! starship.paint (talk) 23:54, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Shall we open an RfC on what he got wrong? (j/k) I would say his main misunderstanding is, he seemed to think that admins act only as admins here - and missed the fact that we sometimes argue about content just like everybody else. (Would we have to explain WP:INVOLVED?) -- MelanieN (talk) 00:17, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

@MelanieN: - I thought his main misunderstanding is only admins can close discussions. I thought any uninvolved editor can do that. Am I wrong?? Your perceived misunderstanding also has merits - so there are two misunderstandings...? starship.paint (talk) 00:51, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

You are absolutely right. Any uninvolved editor can close a discussion - generally it should be someone with a respected presence and track record here, but there are no requirements. BTW I think it is highly likely that the author of the piece is watching our reactions here, so anything you want to say, you can just say directly to him. Much clearer than just saying "he was wrong about this" without saying in what way you thought he was wrong. -- MelanieN (talk) 03:46, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

"administrators (volunteers who apply for the right to wield special override abilities" - I think many admins would object to that characterization, which strongly implies that they have some kind of special authority, rights, or influence as to content (other than the indirect effects of blocking and page protection). I'm surprised you haven't. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:57, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

I think we are talking about the same thing here: his misunderstanding of the role of admins. He seems to think we have a supervisory role in content. We don't. The special tools and abilities we have relate to things other than editorial content. We are still editors, and we can edit and discuss content like anyone else - but when we do, we are not acting as administrators in that area, and we are forbidden from using our tools to enforce our preferred content. You all have often see me say here, when I express an opinion or !vote, that I am speaking here as a regular editor and not an administrator. We can't wear both hats at once. Since I am WP:INVOLVED at this and other Trump articles, I don't take administrator actions here, except to protect a page when necessary, or to block obvious trolls. I do sometimes comment on the way the discussion is going ("cool it, you guys") but so could anyone else. I do occasionally close a discussion I did not take part in, but so could anyone else. -- MelanieN (talk) 15:03, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Wow. I consider this the most accurate and insightful description of the Wikipedia process I have ever seen; most journalists get us way, way wrong. Worth a full read. Apparently the author of the piece sometimes edits WP himself; that may explain why he gets it. Anyhow, this piece should be added to the "media mentions" section at the top of this page. -- MelanieN (talk) 23:46, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

It was already added, hours earlier. starship.paint (talk) 23:49, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Good, I should have known. I would guess he sent emails to everyone he mentions in the article, asking if they would care to comment. I got the email but didn't reply. Looks like JFG replied. -- MelanieN (talk) 00:17, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

BTW one of the really cool things in the article is the animated graphics: the way they illustrate a phrase being added, deleted, re-added, changed... just like sometimes happens here. -- MelanieN (talk) 00:22, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

"Unofficial editorial board" = "regulars", I guess. I kind of like the sound of the former. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:24, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

I didn't receive an email. I would much rather have been portrayed as a defender of WP's NPOV but gotta laugh at the irony. We just got a short walk in the shoes of some BLPs who find themselves the subject of an article in MSM. Imagine how the criticized, desparaged and/or wrongly accused subjects in some of our AP2 BLPs must feel when we cite RS that didn't get the story quite right, or spun parts of it, or went into an interview with their own political biases and preconceived notions. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 00:41, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

RS that didn't get the story quite right - that happens - we expect corrections once they are notified. spun parts of it, or went into an interview with their own political biases and preconceived notions Can you explain how this article did that? starship.paint (talk) 00:56, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Well, Atsme, I thought he got it exactly right as "a user who often defends Trump", but I am curious: which articles here do you think are about "criticized, desparaged and/or wrongly accused subjects in some of our AP2 BLPs"? We should fix those. -- MelanieN (talk) 03:51, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

MelanieN, from my perspective, getting the article right and adhering to NPOV and BLP is not what I consider defending Trump. Help me out here - can you provide a diff so I can better understand why I'm perceived as a "user who often defends Trump" rather than as a user who is trying to adhere to NPOV, RECENTISM, NEWSORG, or other PAG? I guess it's possible that it's an impression based on one's interpretation of what constitutes defense. I was accused off-wiki of being a member of the hate Trump cabal and then accused of being the opposite when I protested being a member of a cabal so maybe I'm doing something right. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 05:33, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

@Atsme: As I told Aaron when trying to assess when NPOV is reached, “When, on the same article, you’ve got a group of editors who say, ‘This is absolutely biased one way,’ and you have another bunch of editors who say, ‘This is absolutely biased the other way,’ ” JFG told me, “that’s when you’re correct.” I think Jimbo said it best many years ago, and I can't trace his quote right now, so mine will do. — JFG ^talk 08:32, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Hello, Aaron Mak! I assume you are reading our reactions here. Any comments? (You don't have to say anything if you don't want to. Your privacy is respected here just like everyone else's.) -- MelanieN (talk) 03:53, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Dear author of this Slate article, may I suggest the following correction, per Melanie's comment, CTRL-F 03:46, 29 May : Instead, users who are not involved in the dispute weigh the quality of the arguments made on both sides against Wikipedia’s editorial policies on things like neutrality and reliable sourcing, and make a decision. starship.paint (talk) 04:29, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

, but almost never rule against the majority. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:08, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

That is not correct: many discussions are closed against the numerical majority, if the minority has stronger arguments as weighed through the lens of our policies and guidelines. See WP:ILIKEIT, WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT and WP:NOTAVOTE (saying this for Aaron's understanding more than for yours, obviously). — JFG ^talk 08:25, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

The body of PAGs is so rich, vague, and self-contradictory that an experienced editor can usually construct a pseudo-policy argument for anything they want to support or oppose. Usually, then, it's not a majority consisting of WP:ILIKEIT, WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT, and argument-free votes, but rather a majority consisting of weak pseudo-policy arguments. I don't see many closers prepared to make the huge time-and-energy commitments required to sort all that, close against the majority, and defend their close on review. It's immeasurably easier and safer to close with the majority. Challenge: Show me three cases in the past year where a close has gone against a majority that had the superficial appearance of policy basis, but was weaker than the minority when one dug deeper. Over the years I've offered this challenge several times in different venues, and I've yet to have anybody take it. ―Mandruss ☎ 09:49, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

I think Mandruss has it right. Yes, our policy is WP:NOTAVOTE. But in my experience the weight of arguments usually comes into play only when there is not a clear majority either way, or when many of the majority votes are obviously phony (meatpuppetry for example) or unaccompanied by any rationale. I can't offhand recall a case where weight of arguments overcame a clear majority. And if it did, it always wound up challenged. I'm not saying this as my own philosophy (it isn't), but as what I observe is the actual practice here. -- MelanieN (talk) 14:44, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

It does not happen often but it happens, (and should), and yes, many decisions like that are challenged (and many challenges are lost). ^{There are others I would rather have used as an example (this one is 4 yrs ago) but it would take too much time to hunt them down.} There are also closes that are based on an iVote count and not the rationale, and some of them are challenged as well. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 16:04, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Not in the last year, but here's an interesting one I closed in favor of a minority with stronger arguments: Talk:Queen Anne of Romania#Requested move 1 August 2016. Decision was upheld at the following move review, which makes for interesting reading if you're into discussions about process and weighing arguments in the face of contradictory guidelines. — JFG ^talk 21:45, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Essay. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:34, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Editors often cite WP:NPOV incorrectly. Some make an honest attempt to understand it and fail, which is understandable considering it's so hard to understand. Others clearly haven't read much farther than the page title and the nutshell, and have developed their own independent ideas about what it means or what they think it should mean. Similarly, WP:WEIGHT has little to nothing to do with how we feel about the relative importance or significance of a piece of content, but it's often used that way in arguments (including on this page right now). Sometimes editors call it WP:DUE or WP:UNDUE instead, possibly unaware that they are aliases of WEIGHT. This is WP:IJDLI masquerading as policy. I've been guilty of this myself, largely because I was following the example of more experienced editors and assuming they were doing it right. A closer should discard !votes like this, but I very rarely see one give any hint that they have done so (and I pay close attention to that). If they were discarding those !votes, surely they would say so—first to communicate an important part of their close rationale, and also in the hope of inducing those editors to improve their game. A link to a policy shortcut and something resembling a cogent argument is generally sufficient, and the link alone is often enough. That's a problem, and I don't have a well-formed solution to it. As always, the first and most difficult step is getting the community to recognize that the problem exists. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:01, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Courtesy ping Aarontaksingmak. You did a splendid job there, in my opinion. (Not just because I'm flattered by your quoting me at length.) — JFG ^talk 08:27, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

+1 ^Atsme _Talk 📧 13:22, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Agree, it's always interesting to read someone who makes an effort to "get it", like Omer Benjakob. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:24, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

I love how Katherine Maher describes talk pages as "the newsroom behind any Wikipedia article." It rather puts our petty squabbling into a new, flattering light, does it not? -- Scjessey (talk) 10:53, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Yes, and quite inaccurately. But that's PR. ―Mandruss ☎ 11:04, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Trump says Russia helped him get elected

[44] I had nothing to do with Russia helping me to get elected - remember guys, the crimes were all on the other side! starship.paint (talk) 14:33, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

Yeah he said it. Shortly after he said the opposite. Meaningless. O3000 (talk) 14:46, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

Freudian slips aren't legally binding. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:15, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

Personality of Donald Trump

“As some prominent psychiatrists have noted, [Trump’s mental health] is the elephant in the room. I think the public is really starting to catch on and widely talk about this now.” (The Independent, 2017)

It's high time that we do something about this article's most startling omission: Trump's personality and health. It's one of the most widely covered issues related to Trump over a period of several years and the subject of an extensive body of expert commentary the world over. Many sources are of very high quality. (Just a few examples: [45], [46], [47], [48]) Clearly countless reliable sources consider this topic to be very important for understanding Trump as a politician. In the years since we first discussed this omission, the body of literature has continued to grow and now includes entire books and academic conferences dedicated to the subject.

We already have a stand-alone article that discusses his physical and mental health (Health of Donald Trump), so the topic is already deemed suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia per se. We even have an article on the book The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump: 27 Psychiatrists and Mental Health Experts Assess a President. (Trump himself has commented on his mental health – or "very stable genius" – on many occasions[49]) There is absolutely no policy-based reason to exclude this material from the main article.

It would be normal for the main article to include a shorter summary of the material found in the topical in-depth article, in the form of a section or sub section. Given the prominence of the topic in coverage related to Trump and its importance according to numerous reliable sources, a one-sentence summary in the lead section would also be appropriate. --Tataral (talk) 03:37, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

As you probably know, this issue has been debated before, and settled in favor of #Current consensus item 21: Omit any opinions about Trump's psychology held by mental health academics or professionals who have not examined him. This consensus was the outcome of two discussions in July 2017 and August 2017, largely in reaction to the publication of The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump. At the time, you disagreed with those conclusions and claimed that there was a false claim about a non-existent consensus, although it was pretty much unanimous. If you'd like to check whether consensus may have changed, please suggest some text and start an RfC. I'm not sure that digging up 2016–2017 sources, as you did above, will help change anybody's mind. If you have more recent material to support your suggestion, let's see it. — JFG ^talk 06:08, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

In part, I agree with what JFG is saying. This article is written in summary style, which means it should ideally be a concise summary of all the "daughter articles" that are biographically significant. With that said, Tataral is talking about bringing in a highly controversial aspect of Trump, who is already a highly controversial and polarizing figure. The best way to do this is for Tataral to come up with a very short paragraph that summarizes what needs to be said, then present it here for debate; however, it is premature to be talking about RfCs. An RfC is only necessary when normal discussion has broken down, and we haven't even started to consider some appropriate text yet. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:07, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

This issue has been discussed before. It has not been "settled" and there is no consensus either for or against including this material now, and never has been (as also discussed before). As also discussed before, a consensus for including this material might very well develop in the future, so this was always an issue that we would have to revisit – in this case because it is a topic with its own daughter article that would normally be mentioned/summarized in the main article, and also because the topic was comparatively new when we first started to discuss it several years ago, so RS hadn't had the same chance to digest it. It's normal to start with an informal discussion and it's never a good solution to start an RfC right away without that. An RfC might be appropriate when people have had a chance to weigh in and the options have become clear.

Clearly there is no reason that is actually based on Wikipedia policy for omitting this material when the topic is even deemed worthy of a stand-alone daughter article. The only opposition I've seen was based on WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT. The idea that we should "omit any opinions" held by academics or professionals "who have not examined him" is essentially a form of highly idiosyncratic WP:FRINGE POV, seemingly based on one Wikipedia editor's (mis)reading of the non-binding and widely ignored (even explicitly rejected) opinion of just one private association in just one country, where their views regarding that were promptly ignored by the countless experts who went on to write books, have conferences at Yale, write papers and talk to journalists on the topic anyway, not to mention that this recommendation had no relevance for experts and commentators in Europe, Asia, South America etc. in the first place, thereby being very US-centric. The recommendation was also about the personal conduct of mental health professionals within the US and not about Wikipedia content or the broader public discourse. Two entirely different things, so it's also a form of OR/SYNTH.

If the recommendation truly had posed some legal problem for some psychiatrists in the US, we could have avoided that problem entirely by limiting ourselves to citing experts in other countries and/or fields. For example psychologists from the UK. But clearly few or no reliable sources, even in the US, took the opinion seriously, considering the extensive conversation about this topic in reliable sources, including American ones. Wikipedia also doesn't have any such principle, and it's telling that this hasn't been an issue in any other article here that I'm aware of. We have numerous articles that include commentary by experts "who have not examined" the person in question, including entire articles such as Psychopathography of Adolf Hitler and several others (on both living and dead people). In Kim Jong-un there is even a first-level section titled "personality" where the North Korean leader is described as "socially awkward" based on the assessment of a journalist and where Trump is also used as a source for stating that Kim has a "great personality" and is "very smart." With Trump, we have a subject who even discusses his own mental capacities and wellbeing publicly, including widely publicized comments that he is a "genius" and "very stable". --Tataral (talk) 14:15, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

I'm open to this, but I would have to see some copy with some impeccable sources. I think it would have to be pretty brief, and I'm not sure where in the article it could be placed.- MrX 🖋 15:08, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

Given the current structure of the article, it could belong in the section where he is now described as "clinically obese". Although, given the relationship between his personality and politics, a separate first-level section titled "personality" (as seen in several other articles) further below could also be an option. --Tataral (talk) 15:17, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

• I agree with Scjessey and MrX. Three of the four sources cited by Tataral were published before the summer 2017 consensus formed to exclude this type of material, so I'm a bit skeptical. And the false WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT accusations aren't helpful either. Then again, consensus can change. I'd like to see what we can come up with. R2 (bleep) 17:25, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

• • Since you only registered your account months ago, I'm astonished that you claim detailed knowledge of discussions from way before that, but for the record there was no consensus formed in 2017. The lack of a consensus for including the material at that time does not equal a consensus against it either, only that we would have to revisit the question again in the future (such as now) in order to get consensus for it. I see no legitimate reason for discarding sources merely because they are from 2016 or 2017, and the few sources mentioned were merely examples of a large body of sources discussing this as everyone here are aware of. In fact Trump's personality, narcissism is something that is constantly discussed, more or less daily. I found articles from The New York Times from only yesterday discussing it. [50],[51],[52],[53] The issue here isn't sources but a false claim and original research by one or two members of the pro-Trump crowd that we "can't" discuss someone's personality for some non-existent legal reason (or something like that), and regardless of an ocean of sources discussing the topic, because we, or the sources, haven't met the subject in person, which is both wrong and ridiculous, and certainly not based on Wikipedia policy. --Tataral (talk) 18:26, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

Whoa... talk about unprovoked battlegrounding and personalization of what I thought was supposed to be a friendly, collaborative discussion... You're not going to win consensus that way. Since you only registered your account months ago, I'm astonished that you claim detailed knowledge of discussions from way before that, but for the record there was no consensus formed in 2017. Are you familiar with the talk page archives? Now, setting aside all of that nastiness, if there are more recent sources, then by all means go ahead and use them to draft something up. R2 (bleep) 18:41, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

@Tataral: Yeah, you need to back that shit down a bit and not jump on R2 like that. Also, might I suggest collecting your thoughts and assembling your comments before posting your wall of text comment here, rather than posting and then making umpteen revisions? -- Scjessey (talk) 19:42, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

Special Council Investigations

I have noticed for some time that this section has been almost irresponsibly underdeveloped save for William Barr's summary which has been under scrutiny for quite some time. I would like to propose that Mueller's recent statements, particularly his statement about "We conducted that investigation, and we kept the office of the Acting Attorney General apprised of the progress of our work. As set forth in our report, after that investigation, if we had confidence that the President clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said that." as well as his statements specifying that the Special Council did not charge Trump because "Under a long-standing Department of Justice policy, “a President cannot be charged with a federal crime while he is in office. That is unconstitutional. Even if the charge is kept under seal and hidden from public view—that, too, is prohibited. The special counsel’s office is part of the Department of Justice, and, by regulation, it was bound by that department policy. Charging the President with a crime was therefore not an option we could consider.” should be added under the basis that this is a more accurate summary of the Mueller Report and due to it being a statement from Mr. Mueller himself - it should be added, as Barr's summary doesn't paint a clear picture of what the report says has been under scrutiny for misrepresenting the Special Council's findings. --50.69.20.91 (talk) 16:09, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

I agree with the problem but I disagree with the proposed solution. The problem is that the "Special Counsel investigation" draws too heavily on unreliable statements by Barr. We only did this at the time because, before the Mueller Report was released, Barr's statements were all we had. Now we know that Barr's statements haven't been fully consistent with the reliable sources. Instead of adding Mueller's statements to Barr's statements, the appropriate solution is to re-write our description of the Mueller Report in our own voice, drawing on what independent secondary sources have said about it. R2 (bleep) 17:18, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

I can agree with that. The quotes don't need to be directly posted but there has been way too much information released about the report to keep this section as small (and outdated) as it is. --50.69.20.91 (talk) 21:53, 31 May 2019 (UTC)