Jump to content

Talk:2022 missile explosion in Poland

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Peralien (talk | contribs) at 23:18, 15 November 2022 (→"Nato" (sub-title) in Reactions (section): Forgot Signature). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Already?

Goddamn you're fast. 5.173.97.59 (talk) 19:01, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I gotta give it to y'all over here you really are fast. Unlike us Wikivoyagers I sell eggs (talk) 19:02, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedians don't sleep RPI2026F1 (talk) 19:27, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Name

The name of the article at the time this thread started was 2022 Russian missile strike on Poland (logs). It has since been moved to 2022 missile strike on Poland.

2022 missile explosion in Poland → ? - Template added to existing discussion; see discussion below Frogging101 (talk) 22:55, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is a bit presumptuous. See for example reports from Poland that it may have not been a strike on Poland but rather the remnants of a shot down missile shot at Ukraine. nableezy - 19:45, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If this bears out, then it should be moved. Frogging101 (talk) 19:47, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Also, the current name may be technically accurate, but it implies that it was definitely purposeful. Until proven otherwise, it should be assumed to be an accident due to poor aiming, or the result of an unguided missile having been used too close to the border. GMRE (talk) 19:52, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe it should move to 2022 Russian missile incursion into Poland. Frogging101 (talk) 19:55, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Or 2022 Two Russian missiles striking Poland incident. 89.8.70.65 (talk) 20:24, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I dont even know why this needs an article yet tbh. Which would obviate the need for a title. nableezy - 20:14, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, but we've got one anyway. Frogging101 (talk) 20:19, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
So merge it ;) nableezy - 20:42, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Let's wait for the bot to place the notice on the article and see if there are any objections. Frogging101 (talk) 20:49, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't agree with it. Super Ψ Dro 21:32, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Someone did a bold move to 2022 missile strike on Poland. I think that's a better name. Still not sure if "strike" is appropriate since it seems unlikely that it was intentional, but I'm not going to push to change it. Frogging101 (talk) 21:27, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Are there any objections to 2022 explosion in south-east Poland as the new name (at least until/if the Polish security services declare that it was from a missile)? We only seem to have Associated Press making a direct claim of missiles (apart from unreliable sources like Twitter/Fediverse). 2022 explosion in Przewodów would be more accurate, but many readers would think of "Poland" rather than the name of the village. Boud (talk) 22:07, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, there are objections. Weaselly non informative title. Volunteer Marek 22:16, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. It is some kind of "missile incident": 2022 Missile incident in Poland. 89.8.70.65 (talk) 22:18, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

At the moment sources are calling this event a "strike" so that's what we'll be calling it too. If sources report it differently we'll change the name then. Volunteer Marek 22:21, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I concur. The U.S. State Department has said that establishing intent is very important. These are early days.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-asia-63593855?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=63740a26f15ea55905e4238a%26US%20responds%20with%20caution%262022-11-15T21%3A55%3A20.071Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:37377b20-5896-4ea2-8dfc-2798c0956cdd&pinned_post_asset_id=63740a26f15ea55905e4238a&pinned_post_type=share

kencf0618 (talk) 22:37, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I find that misleading because it makes it sound like Poland launched some missiles which exploded. There is a reason why no source is describing it that way. It's simply bad writing that misinforms. Volunteer Marek 22:41, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
By that reasoning, one might arrive at 2022 missile incident in Poland. 89.8.70.65 (talk) 22:46, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't invent stuff

What the hey is a "missile trespass"? Is there ANY source which uses this ridiculous language? Please don't just make stuff up. Volunteer Marek 22:19, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Merangs: please stop substituting your own personal made up original research for reliable sources. Sources are NOT calling this "missile trespassing". They're not calling these "missile explosions". They are calling it a STRIKE. Here is the original AP story: AP source: Russian missiles cross into Poland during strike. The title should reflect reliable sources not inventions of individual Wikipedia editors. Volunteer Marek 22:25, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Volunteer Marek: - Show me a reliable, backed-by-experts source saying it was a direct attack against Poland, thanks. Otherwise, it sounds like warmongering to me. Highly unprofessional. Merangs (talk) 22:27, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
First, we're not calling the article "Missile ATTACK against Poland" so don't even try it with the irrelevant strawman. Second, I ALREADY showed you a reliable source - AP - which calls it a strike. You have yet to produce a single source which calls this a "trespass". And cut it out with the personal attacks. Volunteer Marek 22:29, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
What personal attacks? Calm down please. All I did is suggest that the word choice here is improper, from a personal point of view. Also, I am not the one who gets blocked for edit warring and wrong conduct here. Merangs (talk) 22:31, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Calling my comments "warmongering" and referring to them as "unprofessional" are personal attacks. Telling other editors to "calm down" is also WP:INCIVIL as it is a form of passive aggressive insult and provocation (what in the world makes you think I'm not calm). Discuss content not editors. And on that note, please address the fact that reliable sources are calling this a "strike". Volunteer Marek 22:34, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, missile trespass sounds absolutely ridiculous and I've never heard any terminology like that used to describe similar events. PaulRKil (talk) 22:34, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
and the lead (per RS’s) says ..reported that two missiles had struck the territory of Poland- GizzyCatBella🍁 22:37, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The article needs to be moved back to it’s original title - GizzyCatBella🍁 22:42, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Poland is part of EU

I added mention on EU territory, but it was removed. Isn't it noteworthy?🤔 Solarius (talk) 19:59, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Based on the edit summary it looks like it was an accident. Frogging101 (talk) 20:02, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Solarius: I had an edit conflict with your addition, but decided to keep to mentioning NATO only, since NATO is the relevant intergovernmental body in the context of a military conflict. ‒overthrows 20:04, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, going to re-add it then 👍 Solarius (talk) 20:06, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, okay @overthrows! I am thinking that attack on EU is also important 😊 I try to think some other way to phrase it Solarius (talk) 20:08, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Someone from the EU leadership will comment on the incident. We could simply wait for that comment. 89.8.70.65 (talk) 20:26, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not the first strike

Technically the first strike was the on the German embassy as embassies are treated like a territory of their country. 87.205.228.216 (talk) 20:02, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

According to the live updated article on BBC News site, Russia denies any involvement with the strike and calls the early reports a "deliberate provocation".

But let's wait a bit for more official info 83.8.115.64 (talk) 20:14, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It isnt true about the German embassy being treated like German territory, thats a convention on jurisdiction, not sovereignty. See Diplomatic_mission#Extraterritoriality nableezy - 20:16, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Nableezy: Nice way of summarising the difference. I vaguely knew that there was a nuance there, but not quite exactly what it was. Boud (talk) 21:27, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

“…missiles deliberately struck Polish territory “by means of destruction.”

This is included in the reference. There was an edit made claiming it was not in the reference.

“Russia's defence ministry on Tuesday denied reports that Russian missiles had hit Polish territory, describing them as "a deliberate provocation aimed at escalating the situation".

It added in a statement: "No strikes on targets near the Ukrainian-Polish state border were made by Russian means of destruction."” 2600:1000:B057:526A:6080:2111:79AF:365F (talk) 20:38, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The "means of destruction" they are referring to are the missiles, by the way. "Russian means of destruction" means Russian weapons or Russian missiles. Frogging101 (talk) 20:43, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
They denied any kind of strikes in Poland by them in reference, calling it provocation. Your sentence implies that they may allow a chance it was their missile, although they are clear it wasn't. Maybe just don't use word deliberately. --GreenZeb (talk) 20:44, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Against the rules of Wiki

This is news, not confirmed information. Wikipedia is not about news and current events, there is a special place for it 62.4.41.82 (talk) 20:51, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Creating this article a mere hour after the news broke might or might not have been jumping the gun. The advice on that page leads me to believe that what's done is done and we should just wait and see. Frogging101 (talk) 20:55, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
We could propose a title change to "explosion" rather than "missile strike". At least in the summary of this article by OKO.press, the Polish security committee is not yet willing to say what caused the explosion - and the security services will work overnight (PL time) to try to determine what happened. Informally, are there any objections to changing from 2022 missile strike on Poland to 2022 explosion in south-east Poland? or better proposals? (If rough consensus can be reached, we can leave a more formal title change to later.) Boud (talk) 21:37, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Further name discussion should go in the section above. 89.8.70.65 (talk) 22:00, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that a WP:NOTTHENEWS/WP:BREAKING criticism is fair to say. That being said, it's probably for the best that this page was made. 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine is a beast of an article already (~360k bytes). Etrius ( Us) 22:12, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

“Russian” missiles

Not confirmed to have been Russian, yet the title and description make it sound like it despite contradicting it lower in the article by saying Russia is “alleged” to have been responsible. Wikipedia is not the place for rumors or unconfirmed reports. Tankpiggy18 (talk) 20:56, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'll make a bold move to 2022 missile strike on Poland. Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 20:58, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Further name discussion should go in the section above. Frogging101 (talk) 21:02, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-Protection request

This article is getting swamped by users with IPs based in Russia trying to accuse Ukraine of this event. PaulRKil (talk) 21:07, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Use only verified information that is not subject to propaganda by one of the parties, the heading "2022 missile strike on Poland" is much fairer, the wiki is not about Ukrainian propaganda news, but about proven facts, for example, the Pentagon and the US government cannot confirm the origin of missiles 188.243.183.111 (talk) 21:14, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
+1 Frogging101 (talk) 21:17, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The only person doing propaganda here is you, you made two deliberate edit attempts where you explicitly blamed Ukraine and said the explosion was caused by Ukrainian air defense missiles. PaulRKil (talk) 22:05, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/explosion-kills-two-poland-near-ukraine-border-2022-11-15/ 188.243.183.111 (talk) 21:15, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Nato" (sub-title) in Reactions (section)

Please consider removing that subtitle for now. Belgium does not speak on behalf of NATO - only NATO speaks on behalf of NATO. 89.8.70.65 (talk) 22:50, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I've renamed the subtitle to 'NATO countries', thanks. --Peralien (talk) 23:18, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Possible Ukrainian S-300 involvement

There are already some evidences the missiles might actually belonged to the Ukrainian military as fragments found on the crash site indicates, it is the 5V55K, part of the S-300P missile system, employed also by the Ukrainian Armed Forces. It is very likely the missiles could have failed to intercepted Russian cruise missiles targeting Western Ukraine infrastructure during the November 2022 nationwide missile strikes on Ukraine as pointed out by "The Drive" in their article.[1]

I tried to mention this in the article however, my edits are being deleted by the user Volunteer Marek without any valid reason. The user claims its due to "The Drive" is an automotive publication, what is not true. The website is related also to defense, military technology and OSINT as seen in their "The War Zone" publication that is run by experienced editors, and thus does not conflict the WP:RS, what the Volunteer Marek is obviously not aware of at all.

So if someone has any additional informations from reliable sources indicating this possible involvement from Ukrainian side, share it here so we can add it later into the article in correct and unbiased form. Thanks. BlackFlanker (talk) 23:01, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Move back to 2022 Russian missile strike on Poland

We should begin a requested move back to the original title of 2022 Russian missile strike on Poland, now that it has been confirmed to have been two Russian missiles. Elijahandskip (talk) 23:16, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ^ "Missile Hits Poland After Crossing Ukraine Border: Reports". thedrive.com. 15 November 2022.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:2022_missile_explosion_in_Poland&oldid=1122117534"