Talk:Kanye West

Great / Greatest

“He is widely regarded as one of the greatest and most influential hip hop musicians of all time, as well as one of the greatest musicians of his generation.”

Subjective statements… great and greatest should be remove as non factual 23.88.148.197 (talk) 02:31, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

We are not saying that he is one of the greatest and most influential. We are saying that he is widely regarded as such, which the citations show. – Muboshgu (talk) 02:45, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Umm Was gonna totally ise this point. It is widely debated his cult status of "greatest and most influential" This is a ridiculous argument, like saying "Timmy didn't say he was the coolest in the world...HIS CLASSMATES say he's the coolest in the world" Unless there is a clear consensus stuff like this shouldn't be included in the opening paragraph The Introvert Next To You (talk) 01:54, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

The issue here is that he is not widely regarded. Your sources are a no-name website, and a USA Today article with a. Clickbait title where they are debating whether he is or not.

Subjective and wildly unsubstantiated content is not the place for Wikipedia. Stealth006 (talk) 02:55, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

"One of the greatest musicians of the 21st century" is clearly hyperbole and is also too vague. Music is a very broad category that includes classical, jazz, opera, etc. Budapest Joe (talk) 21:01, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Some of us find the introductory content to be unsubstantiated and self aggrandizing, and more subjective than objective. We should work together to find an objective description of his accomplishments for the introductory statement.

The issue here is that while Ye is an influential artist, and quite successful, when we make statements like “of all time” and “his generation”, and in a way where the description. Is clearly going out of its way to aggrandize - we ruin the objectiveness of Wikipedia.

For example, digging further into the article, we find this statement. If we feel it necessary to overscore his accomplishments in the introduction, perhaps this excerpt is an acceptable description as it avoids i Sandy antimatter hyperbole and speaks more to the objective esa of why he is influential - not so much his prowess as a musician - which is considerable, but his breadth of influence because of his wide involvements in other fields as well. —— Outside of his music career, West's success in the fashion industry has led to him being recognized as one of the most influential popular culture figures of his generation. Stealth006 (talk) 03:15, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

Are you part of kanyes pr team Cheesecakep (talk) 02:03, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

This is a frivolous debate. These edits are identifiably subjective in nature. The subjectivity argument holds no ground because it is evidently subjective to argue West is not one of the most influential artists of his generation, despite the prevalence of sources including academic sources that attest to the contrary. Therefore it is fallacious purely on those grounds. Furthermore, the fact these edits were made after a highly publicized controversy illustrates perhaps another motivation, as another user pointed out (similar attempts were made in 2018). West is the third highest selling rapper of all time. If you have any knowledge of hip hop music and popular music in general you would know that he was a unique influence in the late 2000s decade to many of the biggest rap artists of today such as Drake, Travis Scott, J. Cole, etc. Clearly this is an ideologically motivated act as evinced by the edit warring and lack of similar changes being made to the Wikipedia articles of Rakim, Jay Z, J. Cole, Kendrick Lamar, Lil Wayne etc despite similar lines in the leads. It would not matter how many sources one could identify because the revisionist position that he is not one of the most successful and most influential rappers is influenced by recent behaviour and not the larger historical picture which remains unchanged. I agree with the primacy of compromise and therefore propose the following. Since this is explicated further in the article no citations are necessary: "West is widely considered to be one of the most influential hip hop artists of all time, as well as a consistent influence in popular culture." Dqortsky909 (talk) 04:26, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

Why has the influential and greatest hip hop musicians of all time line been deleted? It is still up for Kendrick Lamar's page. Kanye's influence cannot be denied. 2603:6011:CA03:6900:148C:65F4:DA80:AD71 (talk) 04:18, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

References

This is not fallacious because not saying he is the greatest and most influential doesn’t mean he’s not. We’re simply starting to let Wikipedia stand on the merits of fact. There are many other sections in his profile that state his accomplishments and successes, let those facts speak for themselves and let’s not generalize and add a subjective opinion to the opening line of his profile.

This is self-aggrandizing, and adds no substance. Instead of saying he is the greatest and most influential let the content in this Wikipedia article speak for itself towards that regard. Stealth006 (talk) 00:01, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Still hyperbole — Preceding unsigned comment added by BudapestJoe (talk • contribs) 06:49, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Glad to see a thread already on this subject...but why does it still say he is "one of greatest musicians of the this generation" The entire end of the opening paragraph is literally all opinion. And not even a truely widely represented opinion either.

Furthermore if the same thing is stated on other musicians' pages then it should be removed from them all. Two wrongs don't make a right The Introvert Next To You (talk) 12:19, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

I have to agree that these statements in the lede are opinion and unsubstantiated by citation. "Influential", certainly; that can be documented. But "great" and "greatest" are completely subjective and have no place in an encyclopedic piece. Editing, however, appears to be broken on this article. And why is the article headed "Yee"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.95.43.253 (talk) 18:43, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Why are we even calling him a musician, let alone the greatest of his time? Budapest Joe (talk) 05:53, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Kanye doesn’t even male his own music, how could he be considered one of the greatest by merely passing other’s work as his own? Shhsbavavaa (talk) 10:39, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

kayne doesn’t write his own music* Shhsbavavaa (talk) 10:39, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 November 2022

Kanye West has legally changed his name to “Ye” and as such it is no longer a moniker for his hip hop or design aliasis but his actual legal name. I wish this to be reflected in his name box and for it to be mentioned he was formerly named Kanye West. 2600:1007:B03B:2F4:8878:DA0E:4A98:DFA5 (talk) 02:37, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. – Muboshgu (talk) 02:46, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Update there are allegations that Kanye West is named in a Sexual harassment allegation during the time he had a deal with Adidas. These allegations are under investigation for now. Note this is given that Kanye West was originally removed for the the anti-Semitism and Anti-Black Lives Matter rants.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ye-kanye-west-adidas-investigation-sexual-harassment-allegations/?intcid=CNI-00-10aaa3b. 2601:640:C682:8870:45C6:45AE:9C4A:DFFA (talk) 20:42, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

https://www.reuters.com/business/retail-consumer/adidas-launches-probe-into-misconduct-allegations-against-kanye-west-2022-11-24/

https://www.businessinsider.com/kanye-west-says-trump-screamed-him-dinner-mar-a-lago-2022-11

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/nov/25/kanye-west-presidential-run-2024

This is while Kanye West is claiming to run for president in 2024. All of this is hot air for ow until proven otherwise.2601:640:C682:8870:45C6:45AE:9C4A:DFFA (talk) 20:50, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

“one of the greatest musicians of his generation”how could this be considered encyclopedic?

A highly subjective and contentious statement with just as many people if not more people hating his music than praising. In my opinion, it’s literally not his music, all he does is hire the latest young producers to give him their best beats and stamp his name on it. I could do that if I had the money.

it is an embarrassingly bad and subjective statement. Its nearly impossible to make these judgements until more time has passed. Shhsbavavaa (talk) 10:44, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

why you straight up inventing things now lmao. just as many people if not more people hating his music than praising

that is an outright lie, and is backed up by absolutely no source 2001:8F8:173D:71C:5D0D:3FB5:586E:4261 (talk) 12:20, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

Are you dense? Okay. Let’s discredit Alfred Hitchcock because he worked with geniuses like James Stewart, Bernard Hermann, and Saul Bass. Let’s discredit Paul McCartney because he worked with George Martin and John Lennon. Let’s discredit Steve Jobs because he actually didn’t do ANY coding himself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:FB10:4DB0:C487:7136:1CA:2FC4 (talk) 22:57, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

IP, comments like "Are you dense?" border on incivility and/or personal attacks, and are not permitted here. Please restrain yourself from commenting on other editors versus the topic being discussed. General Ization ^Talk 03:07, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Steve Jobs was never known as an engineer, he was known as a designer, entrepreneur, and executive. "Musicianship" encompasses songwriting, and Kanye's success relied largely on sampling, which some would say is less creative than what was done to make what was sampled. That is a debate larger than Kanye himself, and separate from the subjective question raised here. Of course, saying he is the "greatest musician of his generation" is unencylopedic and should be removed, considering current controversies or not. I personally think sampling is and always was uncreative, cheap, and overrated. So clearly he isn't known as one of the greatest musicians of his generation. Successful? Sure, probably. That's a more encyclopedic metric. Perhaps with the proper sourcing it should be changed to that. 2600:1012:B048:293F:746F:832D:E6B3:A585 (talk) 03:02, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Dinner with Trump and Feuntes

I know this is getting alot of coverage, even my dad heard about this, so I get it. I think its due to a slow news cycle myself, but whatever. Is this going to be a big deal in 3 months?? I doubt it but who knows. We are not the news or TMZ. We don't have to include every meal Trump has with people. Fuentes somehow glomed onto Yez and got into Maralogo for a club sandwich with the ex prez. This is being discussed at all the players bios now. If consensus is for inclusion, then fine. Malerooster (talk) 20:00, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

I assume that it meets WP:DUE with Fuentes working on Kanye's 2024 campaign. They were meeting at Kanye's LA offices before going to Mar-a-Lago. It's not like Fuentes just randomly crashed the dinner. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:03, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

ok, now we are getting somewhere. If there are citations/RS talking about that connection, that would warrant further discussion about inclusion. --Malerooster (talk) 20:07, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

KW, NF, and MY keep appearing together in noteworthy situations: https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/kanye-west-nick-fuentes-milo-yiannopoulos-tim-pool-podcast-1234637817/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.65.254.25 (talk) 04:25, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/donald-trump-kanye-west-nick-fuentes-mar-a-lago-dinner-1234638552/ https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/story-trumps-explosive-dinner-ye-nick-fuentes-rcna59010 https://www.politico.com/news/2022/11/25/trump-white-nationalist-nick-fuentes-kanye-00070825 https://www.thedailybeast.com/white-nationalist-nick-fuentes-goes-to-work-for-kanye-west-after-trump-dinner-at-mar-a-lago https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/trump-gets-played https://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/us-elections-government/ny-kanye-west-ye-nick-fuentes-campaign-20221128-lo6r4u3qkngjbdpiigw2qroiwq-story.html – Muboshgu (talk) 04:56, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Excessive length

• This article has a prose size of 111kB, which is over the 100kB limit.

• We have almost 700 citations.

The easy solutions are to remove unnecessary trivia, split off encyclopedic but minor content into related articles, and keep only the best citations. I'd like to help, but the page is so heavy that it takes about 5 seconds between me pressing a key, and text appearing on my screen, so I hope others can help. DFlhb (talk) 23:41, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

The controversies and politics section could be split off entirely into a seperate article, titled “Controversies surrounding Kanye West” and “Political Views of Kanye West” respectively. For such an enormous public figure, there is a lot of information to squeeze into a single biography article. AlienChex (talk) 08:54, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Proposed Split

I think that we can probably afford to split the ever-growing controversy over Kanye and his continuing associations with antisemitism, Nazism, and white nationalism into a separate article. This particular controversy has overshadowed much of Kanye's other accomplishments, and there has been more media attention over his antisemitism than most, if not all, of his past controversies. There is precedent for pages on a single individual's antisemitic beliefs, such as Joseph Stalin and antisemitism, Martin Luther and antisemitism, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Israel. I think Kanye's beliefs are notable enough to warrant their own page.

HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 18:24, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose: Most of the content in that section is very recent. The section is also fairly short. I'd suggest letting this simmer for a bit before considering a split.Support to split off Views of Kanye West. Throast ^{{{ping}} me!} (talk | contribs) 20:08, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
• Lean Oppose: I wouldn't have agreed if this topic was a one-off, but the media coverage and notability of the controversy as a whole I am compelled to think may eventually warrant a split if the trajectory continues as it has been over the last few months. I mean, the article as a whole has the "excessive detail" which could easily be grounds for a split. That said, similar controversies with celebrities haven't warranted a split from their respective parent articles (think The Passion of the Christ and Mel Gibsons controversy, which is much more elaborated on), so I don't think it's justified in this case, not at this point. Gnomatique (talk) 20:49, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

I think a better way of addressing the excessive detail issue is to not do bad premature splits but to cut down on the considerable amount of WP:CRUFT and move info to already existing sub-topics. Throast ^{{{ping}} me!} (talk | contribs) 23:32, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

@Throast: I don't think the documentation of West's antisemitic rhetoric is necessarily cruft, it's been widely reported on over the course of years in news media and referenced in academic literature. CJ-Moki (talk) 23:57, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

I did not say it was and I don't think it is. Throast ^{{{ping}} me!} (talk | contribs) 00:09, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

@Throast: My apologies, I misunderstood your comment. CJ-Moki (talk) 00:11, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

• Support: The article's overlong size (see the section above) and West's extensively documented history of using antisemitic rhetoric going back to at least 2013, compounded by his newfound open identification as a "Nazi" (his word), warrants a separate page. In addition, West's remarks about Jews have been studied in the context of celebrity antisemitism.

References

CJ-Moki (talk) 22:59, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

• Support this is an HUGE controversy many news sights are reporting on this, huge celebrity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PopularGames (talk • contribs) 00:59, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
• Lean Support with Conman33's proposed title and broadened scope, and merge Nick Fuentes, Donald Trump, and Kanye West meeting into it. --Pokelova (talk) 02:15, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

  I agree, I just made a comment on the article for deletion of the page with this opinion. TheRealOj32 (talk) 03:34, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

  Thanks! Glad I could kinda help! conman33 (. . .talk) 05:18, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

• Support - maybe it could be titled "Views of Kanye West"? Similar to the pages Views of Elon Musk, Views of Richard Dawkins. etc? conman33 (. . .talk) 04:08, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

  I think that's probably the best outcome here, if such a split were to materialize. This kind of page should probably encompass his other views he's espoused over the years (including politics, race, etc), in addition to the more recent news surrounding him. JeffSpaceman (talk) 04:13, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

  Sounds like a better idea for an article, I updated the suggested split name. HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 06:01, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

HadesTTW, You should never change a proposal after the fact. Earlier commenters' votes were based on an entirely different, much more specific split proposal. That being said, I changed my vote, but please consider making new proposals instead of modifying old proposals in the future. Throast ^{{{ping}} me!} (talk | contribs) 11:26, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

I apologize, I was not aware that I shouldn't. Thank you for clarifying. HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 15:20, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

• minor support – we could split it into maybe political views" or "controversies surrounding"; I feel the latter could encompass more than his recent BS going all the way back to "Bush doesn't care about black people". Man, his fall from grace is such a shame being a decent fan over the years. – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 04:13, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
• Support The most realistic approach would be an entire article dedicated to all of West’s controversies, titled “Controversies surrounding Kanye West”. There’s no need to single out a specific controversy, it makes more sense to just bundle them all into one detailed article seperate from the main. The controversies section on the main article can be a stub with a redirect. AlienChex (talk) 08:50, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. He is an antisemite and bigot and there is more than enough room in this biography to cover his latest antisemitic and bigoted comments. We don't need a new article on the views of every public personality as if they are independently notable of the subject. IntrepidContributor (talk) 09:30, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
• Support split to Views of Kanye West as proposed, for further expansion. Some of the stuff in the Controversies section should also just be moved to other section, since they're not controversies at all (speaking out against homophobia) or should be removed as cruft (being "ridiculed" by South Park: yeah, South Park ridiculed Hillary Clinton too, who cares? They do that to everyone). DFlhb (talk) 12:41, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
• Strong Support significant enough to warrant a new article for his views recentlyryan RecentlyRyan — Preceding undated comment added 16:22, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

  yes i agree 2A02:C7D:488A:FB00:8D90:57B3:5C97:4DB7 (talk) 14:31, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

• Support There is enough depth to the controversy to split it into its own article. NintendoLover2005 (talk) 21:51, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
• Support split to Views of Kanye West per everyone else. Ye's recent debacle is a perfect opportunity for this split to occur. XtraJovial (talk • contribs) 00:48, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
• Support I think there's enough prose that his ideology and all the controversy definitely deserves its own article... Tree Critter (talk) 05:09, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
• Comment at this point a standalone article for his music career that makes up most of the article and a main focus on his life in a more biographical way might make more sense. The current structure of the article that splits of a number of things happening into different section that arent all that comprehensible or chronological isnt ideal. Most of the 2022 section for Anti-semitism belongs into his main bio, and you cant really separate his presidential announcement that is inextricably linked to his right-wing descend of the previous years. Furthermore, sectioning off the controversies into a separate article that will get much fewer pageviews effectively hides that content from a more general audience. People arent clicking on the Kanye article because they want to read 16 paragraphs about various magazines describing his musical style, they want to know why there are headlines about him saying he likes Hitler. At this point he is as infamous for his exploits outside his musical career as he is for his music, and the article should reflect that, and not move everything else into another article that no one will see. jonas (talk) 07:46, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
  • @Jonas1015119: You have things a bit backwards. As an encyclopedia, our writing is supposed to take an academic approach that avoids news style. The encyclopedic and journalistic intent and audience are different. Material in articles is supposed to be grouped and divided into sections that logically form discrete subtopics, and which over time may spin off to separate articles in order to to prevent excessive article length as the main article grows. Whenever a subtopic is spun off, a concise summary of it is left behind with a pointer (usually using the {{Main}} template) to the new side article–nothing is hidden. Different readers want varying amounts of detail, and this style permits them to choose how much they are exposed to. Kanye West has been known for music his entire career. His antisemitism only recently started. As such, it is more reasonable for readers to expect our article on him to cover his music career in more depth than his antisemitism. ––FormalDude (talk) 02:38, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
• Comment This case is comparable to Bobby Fischer. Fischer, like Kanye, became infamous for his antisemitism, and yet both had already become extremely notable before that, for things completely unrelated to politics. Fischer was actually "worse", since his antisemitism dominated his public and private comments over several decades, far longer than Kanye. Yet Fischer's antisemitism takes up just one subsection of his article. For West, one fifth of this article is about controversies. That's excessive IMO and presents a due weight issue. (I'm not making a WP:OTHERSTUFF argument here; just showing an example a better-written encyclopedia page). Kanye-West-the-antisemite is only notable because of Kanye-West-the-world-renowned-artist. Quite a few of these controversies are due here, but his views belong in their own article and should just be summarized here, per WP:SPINOFF. DFlhb (talk) 14:08, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

This is an OTHERSTUFF argument. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 16:51, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

No; I brought it up to illustrate my point, not as a justification or a pseudo-binding precedent. DFlhb (talk) 20:19, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

• Support Ye's associations with White Nationalist ideology warrant their own article. There are more than enough sources that are specific to only that -- Sleyece (talk) 18:48, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 December 2022

Kanye West is a self-admitted Neo-Nazi. He should be listed as a “rapper, songwriter, record producer, fashion designer, and far-right extremist.” It’s important that people visiting this website in search of valid information know that this man promotes bigotry. 24.13.196.127 (talk) 00:12, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. Throast ^{{{ping}} me!} (talk | contribs) 00:15, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Context of Kanye's remarks (mental illness)

It's painful to see a public figure fall into such a dehumanizing worldview, and while he doesn't deserve our sympathy, he shouldn't be dehumanized in the popular media in turn. A similar case of mental illness and rabid antisemitism was seen with Bobby Fischer. Perhaps including this could provide historical context to his remarks and a zoomed-out and comprehensive view of such a descent. I am wondering what level of source quality is required for such material? Do opinion pieces in reliable sources qualify? 2600:1012:B048:293F:746F:832D:E6B3:A585 (talk) 02:53, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

The article already discusses West's mental health issues to the degree that he himself has discussed them in various media. Unless some published, reliable source draws a straight line from his controversial statements to his mental health challenges, we may not do so. General Ization ^Talk 02:56, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

And no, generally, opinion pieces may not be cited except as clearly identified as the opinions of their writers (who must themselves generally be notable for their opinion to be notable) and then only in certain circumstances. General Ization ^Talk 02:58, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Suggest update of legacy section to include his recent behaviour and response

I think it would be sensible to update his legacy section to include his recent facist behaviour and the criticism, loss sponsorship deals etc that has come from this. I don't know how to summarise this well so I'll let others do it.

John Cummings (talk) 13:25, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

If reliable sources conclude that his recent rhetoric has implications on his legacy, it can be included. Throast ^{{{ping}} me!} (talk | contribs) 14:14, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Neonazism

Kanye's antisemitism and neonazism should be more prominently featured in the opening paragraphs, since for several months now that has been a primary cause of media attention around him 81.105.55.47 (talk) 14:51, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

As opposed to the last few decades where his notability was from his music. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:17, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

i feel as if "Neo-Nazi" should redirect to his page. Chicken4War (talk) 16:45, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

That would be a terrible redirect, as Neo-Nazism is the WP:PTOPIC for that term. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 19:51, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

He is also now a recorded anti-semite right. Would it be acceptable to have the introduction read something like "Ye (/jeɪ/ YAY; born Kanye Omari West /ˈkɑːnjeɪ/ KAHN-yay; June 8, 1977) is an American rapper, songwriter, record producer, fashion designer, and anti-semite"? JaacTreee (talk) 18:03, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

In my opinion, all of this is much too recent to already be included as a defining feature. MOS:ROLEBIO, which outlines how we identify these type of descriptions in opening paragraphs, states the lead sentence should describe the person as they are commonly described in reliable sources. I don't see him being commonly described as an anti-Semite / neo-Nazi just yet. That could obviously change depending on how he chooses to use his platform in the future. Throast ^{{{ping}} me!} (talk | contribs) 19:02, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

This would suffer from both WP:WEIGHT and WP:RECENTISM. — Czello 19:30, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Czello is right, also consider that what Ye said is not nearly as bad as what Eric Clapton and David Bowie said in the seventies, their statements were one of the reasons for the founding of the Rock Against Racism movement. GhulamIslam (talk) 22:43, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Clapton and Bowie have nothing to do with this article. Keep discussion focused on Kanye. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:50, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

No, that's a valid comment. WP:RECENTISM applies. — Czello 22:57, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Whether or not what Clapton or Bowie said in the 1970s is worse than what Kanye has said recently is irrelevant here. Of course RECENTISM applies. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:12, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

that is not how wikipedia works. hitler was described by his jobs as well, as is nearly every single person who there is an article on wikipedia on.

"Adolf Hitler (German: [ˈadoːlf ˈhɪt.lɐ] (listen); 20 April 1889 – 30 April 1945) was an Austrian-born German politician who was dictator of Germany from 1933 until his death in 1945." 2001:8F8:173D:71C:5D0D:3FB5:586E:4261 (talk) 12:23, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

“2019–present: Jesus Is King, Donda, and Donda 2“

I suggest we change this to two different parts of the Musicial Career section to:

2019-2021: Jesus Is King, Sunday Service Choir and Donda

2022-present: Donda 2, Stem Player and cancelled stadium tours

Maybe don’t mention the recent controversy as it isn’t related to his music, but seperate these as after Donda’s realese, he has made a significant impact on his music career that is (until he says it) probably over. 2603:7080:A03E:E800:D8BE:DB87:1BD8:12DF (talk) 20:20, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

I'd support that. The subsection is pretty long as is. Throast ^{{{ping}} me!} (talk | contribs) 21:33, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

It needs a good trim to reduce irrelevant and redundant info. The WP:PROSELINE hurts my eyes too. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:37, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

I second that. That applies to basically all content added after c. 2017 tho. Throast ^{{{ping}} me!} (talk | contribs) 21:45, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

I've already cut from the 1996-2002 and 2003-2006 sections. I just now trimmed from the 2019-present section. More trimming is needed. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:03, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

made changes, other stuff can be added as the newer stuff in Musical Career is an eyesore Purpetic (talk) 23:01, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

If you would like to repeat your edit, including reliable sources and correcting spelling, capitalization, and grammatical errors, please do. However, your edit was reverted because of these issues. General Ization ^Talk 23:04, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Need Consensus: Changing the Introductory Sentence

Based on recent development, I think it is time to change the introductory sentence from: Ye (/jeɪ/ YAY; born Kanye Omari West /ˈkɑːnjeɪ/ KAHN-yay; June 8, 1977) is an American rapper, songwriter, record producer, and fashion designer.

to Ye (/jeɪ/ YAY; born Kanye Omari West /ˈkɑːnjeɪ/ KAHN-yay; June 8, 1977) is an American rapper, songwriter, record producer, fashion designer, conspiracy theorist, and antisemite.

I think this should be changed because of what he posted recently on his twitter (swastika) and the comments he has made over the past few months. I would label him a conspiracy theorist because of his Holocaust denial.

Sources: https://www.vox.com/culture/23400851/kanye-west-antisemitism-hitler-praise https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/unpacking-kanye-wests-antisemitic-remarks https://www.ajc.org/news/5-of-kanye-wests-antisemitic-remarks-explained Amfi2231 (talk) 00:50, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

• Support West's support of antisemitic rhetoric and conspiracy theories has been the subject of press coverage and academic research for years and, in my opinion, is appropriate to mention in the first sentence. CJ-Moki (talk) 00:55, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose This is WP:RECENTISM (we've known he's had kooky views for years, but it's the recent uptick that is behind this proposal) and goes against MOS:FIRSTBIO, which says in part try to not overload the first sentence by describing everything notable about the subject; instead, spread relevant information over the lead paragraph. Kanye is notable for his music. His antisemitism is notable about him. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:11, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

  Thank you for sharing that policy. I did not know about it before. I will circle back to this in a few months, as I am pretty sure this antisemitism will continue unfortunately. Amfi2231 (talk) 02:06, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

  Apparently, in 10 years' time, we all would probably say, well, that was just a little antisemitic phase in Ye's life, and not relevant enough to be included in the lede. — hako9 (talk) 07:05, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose per my comments under Talk:Kanye West#Neonazism. Throast ^{{{ping}} me!} (talk | contribs) 01:25, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
• Support These are important characteristics, and existing proof confirms this. Wisconcom (talk) 03:26, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Oppose Kanye is not a conspiracy theorist as he does not theorise simply states what he believes according to others, nothing original has been produced by him. 114.74.171.133 (talk) 04:32, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

He believes and has stated that the Holocaust did not happen, that is a conspiracy theory. Amfi2231 (talk) Amfi2231 (talk) 04:40, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

• Support At this point his anti-Semitism is notable enough for mention in the first paragraph. (Note: I made a similar edit just now before I was aware this discussion was going on) -TenorTwelve (talk) 06:41, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose This would suffer from both WP:RECENTISM and WP:WEIGHT and fail WP:NPOV. Similar (but arguably much worse) statements made by Eric Clapton and David Bowie (who also praised, and compared himself to Hitler) in the seventies were one of the reasons for the founding of the Rock Against Racism movement, yet none of that is mentioned in their articles' leads. GhulamIslam (talk) 15:02, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose Beyond the recentism, its is not what he is primary known for nor is there any reason to believe that will ever overshadow all he has ever done. Donald Trump has been gone around with more conspiracy theories and for a significant longer amount of time, but that was never in his lead sentence even before he was President. I don't see how we even consider it here. Mentioning in the article of course, and somewhere in the lead makes sense and I'm fine with. But in the lead sentence to define him or even the opening paragraph (as it is now with two sentences), I do not agree with at all. Way too much WP:WEIGHT trying to be attributed to it due to recent events. WikiVirusC^(talk) 16:02, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
• Support The last several months have seen a virtual flood of coverage of Kanye West, and not a much of a stich of it has to do with his music career. He has received intense media coverage for his antisemitism, his praising of Adolph Hitler, and the like. This belongs in the lede now, the reliable sources cannot be ignored. Zaathras (talk) 17:20, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

  The proposal is arguing for it to be in the lead sentence of lead. The coverage of his recent comments are included already in lead. WikiVirusC^(talk) 20:44, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose He is not a "theorist", it is not shown that he influences anyone with his delusions. --Delfield (talk) 17:45, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

A conspiracy theorist is defined as someone who believes in conspiracy theories, regardless of whether or not they are the originator or main proponent of them. --Pokelova (talk) 18:14, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

The term "conspiracy theorist" refers to the content of a person's beliefs, not to whether they have convinced other people of those beliefs. 104.13.110.123 (talk) 02:50, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

While somewhat semantic, the term theorist is usually reserved for someone (typically a scientist, writer, or philosopher) who systematically explores, develops, and/or promotes a theory or set of theories in some medium with a goal of influencing others' knowledge or belief on a topic. A person can subscribe to certain theories or have an affinity for a certain kind of theory without qualifying as a theorist (otherwise, everyone would qualify as a theorist about something). The term conveys an intent to influence (and some investment in doing so), whether or not successful. If anything about this was added to the lead, it should refer to the fact that West has made statements expressing support for these theories, not state that he is a theorist. General Ization ^Talk 03:01, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose The controversy concerning his views is already adequately covered in the lede section and in the body. The first sentence of the lede should not be overly burdened in an attempt to cover every aspect of the subject, but should explain the primary reasons for his notability, which it already does. Per other comments, fails WP:RECENTISM, WP:WEIGHT and WP:NPOV. General Ization ^Talk 18:30, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

the 'conspiracy theorist' is fine, but the 'anti semite' is not encyclopaedic 2001:8F8:173D:71C:5D0D:3FB5:586E:4261 (talk) 12:23, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

twitter suspension

Ye was suspended from Twitter for posting a picture of this image https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raëlism on his laptop. 198.90.120.65 (talk) 02:27, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Already included under Kanye West#InfoWars interview. Throast ^{{{ping}} me!} (talk | contribs) 03:13, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Ye and the Alt-Right

I wanted to bring attention to a specific quote in the Yahoo article I cited in the edit that Throast (talk · contribs) reverted.

"It was shocking to see that Kanye West could share harmful alt-right beliefs, conspiracy theory after conspiracy, and misogynistic beliefs about women for the majority of the interview and end up with an edit that removed all those items in favor of celebrity fluff content," Reich told TheWrap.

I am getting from the reversion, though, that coverage needs to be of a higher standard, and that more articles perhaps need to say "Kanye West is alt-right" or "Kanye West is an alt-right figure", before Wikipedia's voice can consider West alt-right.

Let's look at another article, this time from Consequence of Sound, that states:

As West himself revealed in a new campaign-style video released to Twitter on Thursday evening, he and Fuentes recently traveled to Mar-A-Lago, where they pitched Donald Trump on being West’s running mate for the 2024 presidential election. In the video, he is seen debriefing with Fuentes and campaign staffer / fellow alt-right personality, Milo Yiannopoulos.

Worth noting is that Lutesque (talk · contribs) put West in Template:Neo-Nazism on December 1. I am starting this thread so that you all can talk amongst yourselves if West can suitably be considered "alt-right". I won't be dying on any hills here, and will not bring it upon myself to be a pillar of the discourse or editing activity here (and I have never been a fan of his anyways), but I hope that this thread can bring clarity and a platform to publicly disseminating the coverage of West's remarks. Mungo Kitsch (talk) 04:07, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

• Support: If these reliable secondary sources describe West as alt-right, the article should refer to him as alt-right. CJ-Moki (talk) 06:09, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Your second paragraph is spot-on. Note that the first source you cite doesn't call him an alt-right figure outright; it merely says that he "shares harmful alt-right beliefs". The second source arguably refers to Fuentes amd Yiannopoulos as alt-right, not West. Regardless, any such descriptions of him should be worked into the article and substantiated not just by one or two but a multitude of reliable sources before we group him in with alt-right figures. Throast ^{{{ping}} me!} (talk | contribs) 10:34, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

He is Ye West

COMMONNAME does not apply with deadnamining, also why do you call him Ye, you still has a surname. I propose a move with a redirect to allow search engines in. Valery Zapolodov (talk) 04:36, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

(1) I don't think he's ever called himself "Ye West", and (2) WP:DEADNAME is about transgender individuals, which Kanye is not. – Muboshgu (talk) 04:37, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

You cannot not have a surname. What? No, it is not about transgender people, what that has to do with anything? You do not have to change the name legally for anything like that, no, it is about wife changing a name or hyphenating it, or even a husband sometimes. Valery Zapolodov (talk) 04:47, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Tell that to the judge. --Pokelova (talk) 05:18, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

@Valery Zapolodov: Well, MOS:DEADNAME says that if someone is notable under a former or dead name, it can be included in the article. Specifically searching "Ye West" on Google proves that "Kanye West" is still the WP:COMMONNAME. ~~lol1VNIO⁠🎌 (I made a mistake? talk to me) 10:55, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

No, apparently he really has no surname. But are you sure it is actually the case on paper? Valery Zapolodov (talk) 20:22, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

§ Name change of the article says that yes, he doesn't have a surname on paper. ~~lol1VNIO⁠🎌 (I made a mistake? talk to me) 20:29, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

If he officially changed his name to exclude a surname, it's probably disrespectful to refer to him as "West" throughout the entire page. Changing all of those to "Ye" would make the most sense Canopylions (talk) 23:27, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

I would probably suggest reading any of the prior move discussions as COMMONNAME applies Izzy Moony_{Hi new friend!} 23:30, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting a move, rather changing how is referred to. The article starts by referring to him as Ye as his primary name, but then only uses West to refer to him. I'm not a Ye fan by any measure, it's just the principle of the whole thing. Canopylions (talk) 23:38, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

"Ye" is his legal name, "Kanye West" is his common name. This is how we present it. See Mos Def, for instance, for a similar case. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:04, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

If the Mos Def article followed the same logic as Ye's, then he would be referred to by either his birth surname "Smith" or his common name "Mos Def". Instead the article consistently refers to him by his legal surname "Bey". I don't see why Ye's page couldn't be named Kanye West but refer to him by legal name throughout the article Canopylions (talk) 00:53, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

I meant the opening sentence, which notes he legally changed his name but is most commonly known as Mos Def. If the article is referring to him as "Bey" in the body, that should be changed for consistency. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:01, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

Throughout the body are sentences like "Bey attended middle school at Philippa Schuyler Middle School in Bushwick, Brooklyn, where developed his love for acting"

In this case, should all uses of Bey be changed to "Mos Def"? Canopylions (talk) 01:03, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

Should Category:American neo-Nazis be added to this page

I’ve seen it be added and then removed. Should Ye be considered a neo-Nazi? PrisonedMuffin (talk) 15:25, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

This has already been discussed at Talk:Kanye West#Neonazism, before opening a new section please make sure there isn't already one discussing the same thing. GhulamIslam (talk) 15:37, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

@PrisonedMuffin: I see you've gone ahead and added this without getting a consensus from here first, this is WP:OR because no reliable source is seriously calling him a "neo-Nazi". GhulamIslam (talk) 15:45, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

@GhulamIslam wouldn’t he be considered a neo-Nazi due to him calling himself one on Infowars? PrisonedMuffin (talk) 16:11, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

@User:GhulamIslam wouldn’t he be considered a neo-Nazi due to him calling himself one on Infowars? PrisonedMuffin (talk) 16:28, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Only if enough reliable sources explicitly call him one (he didn't say "neo" though). Though considering the context of the conversation, it seemed to come from frustration over perceived opposition to freedom of speech, "I am (a Nazi), now what?" Due to this I wouldn't give this statement much credibility. GhulamIslam (talk) 17:05, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 December 2022

Request edit to kanye west page to description to include “anti semite” as part of character description. Important to be accurate with this stuff these days. Thanks. 2601:285:8380:8790:52E:DF07:DA72:8A6 (talk) 17:13, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

This is already a discussion about this above in Consensus: Changing the Introductory Sentence. Please put your input there. No changes will be made until a consensus is reached, which has not yet happened. Thanks! Amfi2231 (talk) 17:41, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Of possible interest - the abandonment of Kanye's reddit sub

Hitting the reliable sources now.

1. Kanye West’s Reddit Page Taken Over by Taylor Swift & Educational Holocaust Posts After Hitler Comments (Billboard)

2. Kanye West Reddit page overtaken by Taylor Swift fans and Holocaust awareness posts (The Independent)

3. On Reddit, Kanye superfans finally reach their breaking point (Forward)

Zaathras (talk) 17:28, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

It's also being covered by Variety and Bloomberg. I would say it warrants a brief mention in the article. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:14, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

thing is those articles are kinda nonsense because swift fans themselves haven't taken over it. it's merely ye fans and ex-fans disgusted by his actions who are ironically posting pro Taylor swift comments while more importantly, turning the subreddit into a holocaust awareness subreddit of sorts 2001:8F8:173D:71C:5D0D:3FB5:586E:4261 (talk) 12:25, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 December 2022 (2)

Currently there is no mention of West’s praise of Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, and Jeffrey Dahmer, towards the end of the interview. Change the article to include quotes of him saying he loves these people: Alex Jones: “Stalin is horrible, hitler is horrible, Mao is horrible” West: “I love all of those people” Alex Jones: “You love Mao Zedong?” West: “Absolutely” … Alex: “You love Jeffrey Dahmer?” West: “Absolutely” 73.249.132.201 (talk) 21:08, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Not worthy of a direct quote at this time. Zaathras (talk) 22:20, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

We follow the secondary sources in reporting on the event. The weight of the Jones interview (and subsequent coverage in secondary sources) was on Nazism and antisemitism. The demand to include specific quotes from the interview regardless of any consideration for noteworthiness and weight does not improve this article. 104.13.110.123 (talk) 02:40, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

Milo is not a white supremacist

On milos page it is not mentioned he is one 193.210.195.231 (talk) 13:44, 4 December 2022 (UTC)