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Edit dispute

There is an edit dispute over the phrase "blacksmith slave". The phrase is used in sources, though I am not clear of the context in which the phrase is used, and it might be useful for the general reader to put the phrase in context. Who used that phrase and why? The sources themselves indicate that the phrase in unclear - "Beyond A-na-kui's disdainful reference to his "blacksmith slaves" there is ample evidence to show that the Turks were indeed specializing in metallurgy, though it is difficult to establish whether they were blacksmiths or rather miners." - "the so-called 'blacksmith slave' Turk". It appears that this is a contemporary phrase that was used about the Turks, rather than an evaluation by historians. Thomas Becket was called a "turbulent priest" by Henry II, but that is not how historians refer to him.

The wording may need to be reworked to take into account that the Turks appear not to be actual slaves, but were regarded disdainfully by the Rouran Khaganate. Also, it may be appropriate to include that there is some doubt about if they were blacksmiths or miners: "And they lived north of the Altai Mountains for generations, and provided iron for the Rouran Khaganate[8][17]. It is unclear from sources if the Turks mined, smelted or made objects out of iron. The Rouran Khaganate termed them "blacksmith slaves"; though, despite this disdainful attitude, the Turks were powerful enough to demand allegiance through marriage."

If people agree the appropriate wording, then I will unlock the article. SilkTork *YES! 18:58, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ancient Chinese historical records state that, after Houwei emperor defeated Juqu, Turks took refuge in Rouran and lived near Jinshan. They were engaged in iron works.[1] The phrase "blacksmith slaves" also takes place in historical records, but only in the context of Rouran Khan Anagui's insult to Gokturk chief Bumin, who demands marriage with Khan's daughter: You are my blacksmith-slave, how do you dare to use such language! [2] There is no record mentioning neither "Rouran elite", nor "Rouran vassalage system". But some contemporary sources, especially Chinese ones later than 1960s, claim that Turks was slaves, and there was an class struggle in Rouran society which revealed by this insult.
However, here it seems like somebody's ambition to call Turks as "slaves" exceeded proper referencing and scientific reasoning. Even Sinor's phrase which shows uncertainty of the matter, referred as supporting "slave-class" view. First in Turkish Vikipedi, and then English Wikipedia, this phrase added to articles Gokturks and Bumin Khagan, while majority in Turkish Vikipedi find it simply unfounded.
After bulk of talk in Turkish version, it seems like we have reached a solution. According to Turkish version, this "blacksmith slaves" should be discussed under Bumin's revolt. And after quoting Anagui's insult, it should be stated that there is some arguments originated this insult, which claim that Turks was a part of a vassalage system under Rouran Khaganate. --CenkX (talk) 02:37, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ 隋書/卷84, 後魏太武滅沮渠氏，阿史那以五百家奔茹茹，世居金山，工於鐵作。
  2. ^ 周書/卷50: 茹茹主阿那瑰大怒，使人罵辱之曰：「爾是我鍛奴，何敢發是言也？」
As CnkALTDS and Takabeg are both involved in this dispute it would be appropriate to wait for their views before moving forward. I would rather the matter is resolved here and now than either CnkALTDS or Takabeg coming back later uncomfortable with changes, and starting an edit war again. SilkTork *YES! 08:23, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I will wait, OK. But one thing need to be clear, the phrase "blacksmith slaves" only used by Anagui for Bumin. In historical records there is no evidence that Turks were called like this.--CenkX (talk) 08:58, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The compromise in Turkish version is "pro-Turkic". Some users who claim Kök Türks as ancestors, showed nationalistic reaction.

According to Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources, Wikipedia articles should be based mainly on reliable secondary sources.

Reliable seccondary sources use (in English): "blacksmith slave", (in Turkish): "demirci köle". For example in these books, they don't use for Anagui's personal view but common use. Someone explains that this term probably means vassal. Because other turkic tribe was also related iron works and they were real slave. So this word is key word for the Turkic people. But it's not clear whether was (have been) real slave or not. We can prefer to use so-called and " ". Thank you.

  • Denis Sinor, Inner Asia: history-civilization-languages : a syllabus, Routledge, 1997, ISBN 9780700703807, p. 26. Contacts had already begun in 545 A.D. between the so-called "blacksmith-slave" Türk and certain of the small petty kingdom of north China,
  • 馬長壽, 《突厥人和突厥汗國》, 上海人民出版社, 1957, (Ma Zhangshou, Tujue ve Tujue Khaganate), pp. 10-11.
  • 陳豐祥, 余英時, 《中國通史》, 五南圖書出版股份有限公司, 2002, ISBN 9789571128818 (Chen Fengxiang, Yu Yingshi, General history of China), p. 155.
  • Gao Yang, "The Origin of the Turks and the Turkish Khanate", X. Türk Tarih Kongresi: Ankara 22 - 26 Eylül 1986, Kongreye Sunulan Bildiriler, V. Cilt, Türk Tarih Kurumu, 1991, s. 731.
  • Burhan Oğuz, Türkiye halkının kültür kökenleri: Giriş, beslenme teknikleri, İstanbul Matbaası, 1976, p. 147. «Demirci köle» olmaktan kurtulup reisleri Bumin'e...
  • 張豈之, 王子今, 方光華, 秦汉魏晋南北朝史, 五南圖書出版股份有限公司, 2002, ISBN 9789571128702, p. 463.
  • Larry W. Moses, "Relations with the Inner Asian Barbarian", ed. John Curtis Perry, Bardwell L. Smith, Essays on Tʻang society: the interplay of social, political and economic forces, Brill Archive, 1976, ISBN 9789004047617, p. 65. Slave' probably meant vassalage to the Juan Juan confederation of Mongolia, whom they served in battle by providing iron weapons, and also marching with qaghan's armies.
  • Asian Pacific quarterly of cultural and social affairs
  • Ritual, state, and history in South Asia: essays in honour of J.C. Heesterman
  • Son of heaven and heavenly Qaghan
  • Al-Hind the Making of the Indo-Islamic World: The Slave Kings and the Islamic Conquest : 11Th-13th Centuries
  • Mircea Eliade, Charles J. Adams, The Encyclopedia of religion, Vol. 7, Macmillan, 1987, ISBN 9780029094808, p. 243.

Takabeg (talk) 09:07, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If the compromise in Turkish version is Pro-Turkic, then you are pro-Turkic too, because you were the editors of the last version. You're still mentioning about Sinor and Eliade, did you really read what is written there, I doubt. --CenkX (talk) 09:30, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Takabeg for taking part in this discussion. There is evidence that the phrase "blacksmith slaves" was used, and so it is appropriate to use that term. What is important is that the term is used in the right context and explained. My reading of the sources is that the term was used in a disdainful rather than descriptive manner by a specific contemporary person, Yujiulü Anagui. There is not a question of using a compromise version, as the phrase was used. However, it is not appropriate to use the phrase out of context to assume that the people were in fact slaves, as it appears that the people themselves did not regard themselves as slaves, and sources that I have looked at do not record them as being slaves. SilkTork *YES! 18:35, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, this source says: "known to be tributary to the Juan-juan and to have served as their 'blacksmith-slaves'". So, do we have a conflict of sources? SilkTork *YES! 18:43, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Here Denis Sinor's wording should be adopted: Contacts had already begun in 545 A.D. between the so-called "blacksmith-slave" Türk and certain of the small petty kingdom of north China. So-called (by Anagui, is understood) "blacksmith-slave" Türk (=Bumin). When you say '"blacksmith-slaves" Türks', it is something else.--CenkX (talk) 01:57, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • I dont understand why there is Blacksmith slave term in the article of the Gök Türks?You know its only a word of Anagui for insult him,it is not a title for Turks its only a insult word and Anaguis viev,no more!--Kamuran Ötükenli (talk) 09:26, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The compromise in Turkish version is "pro-Turkic". Some users who claim Kök Türks as ancestors, showed nationalistic reaction."

That is not about and there is nothing about Nationalistic reaction of Turkish users,but as i see some kurdish users are urgent about using Blacksmith slaves.Actually that was their idea in Turkish Wikipedia but they failed.And now they try ones luck here.Also Sorry for my bad english:)--Kamuran Ötükenli (talk) 09:34, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't find any edits of Kurdish users. Off course, not only Turkish but also Kurdish user can edit this article. Anyway term 鍛奴　is related with their origin and we cannot compose sentence such as some historians feel... because in Wikipedia original research is not accepted. Thank you. Takabeg (talk) 07:27, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And do you know Mustafa Kemal's speech at Türkocağı in Malatya on February 13, 1931 ?

He said:

Turkish nation who will use railways, will have been honorable by showing the achievement of the first craftmanship and blacksmithy of its origin.[1]

Off course Atatürk's speech is not reference for this article :)) Takabeg (talk) 07:42, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

  1. ^ Atatürk'ün Söylev ve Demeçleri II, Atatürk Kültür, Dil ve Tarih Yüksek Kurumu Atatürk Araştırma Merkezi, 1989, p. 301, Turkish text: Demiryollarrını kullanacak olan Türk milleti menşeindeki ilk sanatkarlığına, demirciliğinin eserini tekrar göstermiş olmakla müftehir olacaktır. (in Turkish)
Please do not change the "blacksmith slave" part without discussing here! Nobody is denying the importance of metallurgy on Turkish culture. However, the citation above is irrelevant here.--CenkX (talk) 09:12, 21 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We cannot use historians feel. Not only most of historians but also history fancier such as Atatürk accepted and mentioned to their blacksmithy. If this term came from Anagui's "鍛奴" comment, we must not deform it. But Zeki Velidi Togan mentioned another blacksmith slave and as to him they are also Turkic people. Maybe there are other sources of blacksmith slave. Anyway blacksmith slave is key word of ancient Turkic people. So please don't deform acroding to your own opinion. Takabeg (talk) 10:42, 21 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Turk or Kok Turk

I changed all "Turks" to "Kok Turk"; instead I could change all "Kok Turk"s to "Turks"; they are just synonyms. Historical name is "Turk" but this can be confused with the modern meaning of the word; the article should be written with meticulous care to aviod confusion if "Turks" word is used, otherwise a confusion note is unnecassary. However, you cannot use Turk in one paragraph and Kok Turk in another paragraph, it would not be a good article! Kavas (talk) 19:14, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But can you use "Göktürks" as article title and then "Kök Türks" in the article itself? It should be one or the other.--Joostik (talk) 18:31, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's a good point. It is better if the name used in the article were also the title of the article. Alternative names and spellings are given in the lead, and after that one term is used throughout for internal consistency. It is permissible to use synonyms for variety and readability, but not to change spellings. Göktürks gets 58,500 Ghits, while "Kök Türks" gets only 1,460. "Kök Türks" books - 48 - Göktürks books - 335. It is clear that Göktürks is the common term, and the one most used by scholars. That should be the term used in the article. SilkTork *YES! 22:54, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
They are simply Türks so "Kök Türks" hits only a few. --Shamans of Tengri 16:40, 15 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Göktürk is not widely used, hence the best scholars in this field do not even call the First and Second Türk Qaghanate with this name (i.e. Golden, Beckwith, etc). Göktürk is not justified simply to distinguish from modern Turkish Turks. It appears once in the inscriptions, which are the basic source for how Türk rulers saw their empire. Golden suggest that it is largely related to "east" not sky or celestial, but of course this could be debated. In any case, the people called themselves Türk consistently. The evidence for Ashina as "blue" is weak, and in any case the whole of the Türk ethnic group or empire is not going to call themselves Blue Türks simply because the Ashina founding clan's name meant "blue." Nlight2 (talk) 12:07, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Internal revolution

"Internal revolution" is properly referenced. It should be stay in the article. Please do not delete it.--CenkX (talk) 12:04, 21 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Neutral point of view

The map

The second map in section Civil war is not realistic. According to map most of South Siberia as well as Pacific Ocean coast was under the influence of Turks. Is there a source to back this claim ? If not, we may discuss delating it. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 15:13, 21 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

According to Vol. 99. of History of Northern Dynasties,

俟斤又西破嚈噠，東走契丹，北並契骨，威服塞外諸國。其地，東自遼海以西，至西海，萬里；南自沙漠以北，至北海，五六千里：皆屬焉。抗衡中國，後與魏伐齊，至並州。

俟斤=Muqan Qaghan defeated Hephthalite (嚈噠) in the west, made Qidan (契骨) run away in the east, moreover Kyrgyz (契骨) in the north and make subservient countries outside the Great Wall (塞外諸國). Its territories extended to 10,000 miles from the Sea of Liao (遼海) in the east to the West Sea (西海) in the west, to 5,600 miles from the northern part of the desert (沙漠) in the south to the North Sea (北海) in the north: all belong to it.　It was a match for China and after defeated Northern Qi with Western Wei (precisely Northern Zhou that was the follower of Western Wei) and extended to Bing (並州).

Takabeg (talk) 03:27, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Please note that I have no objection about the southern and western territories. They are well documented. But I have doubts about the eastern part. There it seems only one source. But the details in history books produced in medieval and ancient times are not always reliable. Do we believe that the gods were fighting in the battle of Troy ? (Well it is written so) We should also use our logic. Turks were originally from Altai Mountains. They captured Ötüken app. 1500 km east, because the Ötüken forest was considered holy. But Pacific Ocean is about 6000 km. away and unlike west there was no attractive rewards (no Silk way). I think Turks’ presence or even influence along the Ocean is highly questionabe. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 08:24, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Zizhi Tongjian

  • Zizhi Tongjian's link doesn't mention about "Tujue's service as ironsmiths". Please check the link again.
  • Suishu doesn't mention about ironsmith services, only says, 'work in metal making' (工於鐵作).

These two points should be clarified before making citations. Thank you!--CenkX (talk) 02:00, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You deleted sources and information again. The link that you deleted is Sima Guang, Zizhi Tongjian, Vol. 159. and it says that 突厥本西方小國，姓阿史那氏，世居金山之陽，為柔然鐵工. Thank you. Takabeg (talk) 03:38, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

：Then the information you gave was wrong, there was no mention of Tujue on Vol.123, as you said, it's vol.159. And there is nothing about "service", it simply says, "metal-work for Rouran". Please be precise.--CenkX (talk) 03:47, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

鐵工 means blacksmith, ironworker, ironwork. Takabeg (talk) 03:48, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You deleted vol. 159 and related information, not Vol. 123. We use Vol. 123 for other information. OK ? Takabeg (talk) 03:54, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not OK. You're distorting information according your personal fictional views, those sources does not mention about them serving to Rouran.--CenkX (talk) 03:59, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Turks served as ironworkers. Takabeg (talk) 04:03, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

have served as their "blacksmith slaves" and ironworkers. Takabeg (talk) 04:09, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

served as ironworkers. Takabeg (talk) 04:11, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

served as their "blacksmith slaves" and ironworkers. Takabeg (talk) 04:13, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

They served Jwen-jwen as ironworkers. Takabeg (talk) 04:18, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

submitted to them and settled as ironworkers. Takabeg (talk) 04:23, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In short many historians accept it and I've never edited by my personal opinion. I don't have any opinion :) I only translate and transfer information. But we can say this your edit was done by your personal view of point. Takabeg (talk) 04:31, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Need Cleanup

I just took a closer look to the article after years. I realized that last six months while a lot of useful information was discarded, a lot of unfounded information added. So I decided to add cleanup template.--CenkX (talk) 03:13, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Göktürk or Türk

Why is the name of this article Göktürk (or Köktürk as proposed) ? In both cases the word Gök (or Kök) is a noun used as an adjective in a adjective clause (i.e., Celestial Turk) . Usually, in official addresses of the historical states, the name of the state is presented with a lot of adjectives and titles. (Great, sempiternal, holy, honored etc.) But usually these titles don't appear in the article names of the encyclopedias. (These may be given in the text) Even if they appear in the name of the article in a very few cases, the adjective and the noun are not combined (Holy Roman Empire, Great Seljuk Empire etc.) So I think the name of this article should be moved to Turkic Empire or Turkic Khanate. A second choice may be Celestial Turk where the words are not combined. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 09:06, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I thought that the name of the article was driven by native Turks, and then it is tolerable as reflecting the native accepted historiographical views, but otherwise it strikingly stands out from every other article in the WP, where the ruling elite, people, and the political organizations are not piled up in a single cauldron. Ashina Turks were a ruling elite, and they had their own genealogical legends, historical references, background, ethnology, etc. For example, Ashina Turks had hostile relations with a number of Turkic people, who never accepted their supermacy, and in the end brought about their demise. Ashina Turks presided over numerous peoples in Eurasia, from primitive forest foot hunters to most developed irrigation agricultural people, and supervised the most advanced metalurgical production of the time. Their metalurgical legasy lasted into the 20th century, and was a base for the industrial development in the Asian part of the USSR. Politically, they led a number of Middle Age states, each defined by its own history and uniqueness. They also laid a foundation for the ruling concept that was far ahead of its time, making them desirable rulers invited to rule with their know-how in many lands with no Türks. The Göktürk article should address a wealth of information about a sliver of Turkic dynasty that played a magnificient role in the history of Eurasia, trace their propagation and their conflicts with other Turkic dynasties. The history of Turkic peoples is a completely different story, impacted, but not driven by Ashina Turks, and the political history is again a separate story, consisting of dozens individual stories with Göktürk involvement only at some short period. I suggest that there is a need to create a table of contents, as a separate discussion, like in any publication, and then be guided by it in the breakdown and naming of the articles. A separate issue is the absence of the native sources, only Göktürks in the WP is written entirely by outsiders with mostly skewed knowledge and objectives Barefact (talk) 10:51, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The term "kök" is definitely a title like "Great", "Heavenly", etc. The Osman Turkish people want to have the primary place among Turkic peoples, so they call themselves simply "Turks", and rename the real Türks (Kök Türks) "Göktürks". The term "Göktürk" itself is a Turkish corruption of Old Turkic/Old Uyghur "Kök Türk". The article should be Türks (kök) (or Türks (ancient people), Türks (blue), Türks (sky), etc.), kök is simply a term to disambiguate them from the ancient Turkmens. --Shamans of Tengri 18:28, 18 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Name

Göktürk:

Turkic Khaganate (but including other Turkic khaganates/khanates/empires):

Tujue:

Kök Türk:

Takabeg (talk) 00:31, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Türk:

Modern Mongolian alternative name

Modern Mongolian alternative name is needless. Mongols appeared in 7th century. Shiwei was not in the Mongolian Plateau. This alternative name had no historical value. Wikipedia is not a dictionary. Thank you. Takabeg (talk) 12:22, 30 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"History of Mongolia" Information Box?

I was wondering if it is relevant to put, in the origins section, an information box 'History of Mongolia'. This article is about the history of Turks. We should put 'History of Turks' Information Box instead. Stokastik (talk) 23:19, 10 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know precise rules on info box. I think this info box can be put here, because the mainland of this khaganate lay in modern Mongolia. {{Template:History of Kazakhstan}} can also be put. Takabeg (talk) 23:41, 10 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Project China ?

I propose to delete the ProjectChina. This article has nothing to do with China. It is true that they were the neighbours of China. But they were also the neighbours of Sasanid Persia and Byzantine Empire. Are we going to include all neighbours? Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 06:26, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's a part of Project China because Turks were the ancestors of Chinese peoples and their kingdom was an important part of Chinese history. Many of Chinese peoples, such as the ethnic Uyghur, ethnic Uzbek, ethnic Qazaq, ethnic Sariq Uyghur, etc., regard Turks their sole ancestors (Turks were also the ancestor of non-Chinese Uzbeks, Qazaqs, etc in Central Asia, and that the reason why it's a part of Project Central Asia), and most other of them, such as ethnic Han and ethnic Mongol/Tuva, regard Turks one of their ancestors, due to several extensive cultural and lineage interactions since the Wu Hu era. --118.186.196.18 (talk) 14:35, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I doubt whether the Project Turkey is ok for this article, because the Seljuks didn't appear in the Asia Minor until 11th century, and it's not clear where exactly they came from. They say a language that is somewhat close to the language spoken by the Kok Turks, but with a quite weird pronunciation (e.g. they pronounce Beg as Bey). Project Turkey concerns more with Anatolia, Byzantine, and Seljuk-Ottoman Empires, less with the history of Turkic peoples. So it's definitely not a high-importance article of Project Turkey. --118.186.196.18 (talk) 14:35, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

So called "Iranian" titles of Göktürk leaders

Political system: Sadly I see that 111.69.225.40 tried to delete text. I think we need more neutral information and two positions to avoid such deletions (NPOV). On the other hand it seems to be persian chauvinism which has to be removed due to out-dated and misleading, wrong information. --Tirgil34 (talk) 16:17, 16 March 2012 (CET)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Tirgil34 --Cold Season (talk) 00:38, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

File:Gokturks coin.png Nominated for speedy Deletion

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Wrong usage of German Citation

This sentence is based on wrong citation:"German Turkologist W.-E. Scharlipp writes that "a conspicuously large amount" of early Turkic titles are "in fact borrowings from Iranian", including "almost all of their titles"."[1]

Everybody who can speak German should comment this. Thanks! -- Xantana (talk) 15:50, 8 April 2012 (CET)

  1. ^ „(...) Über die Ethnogenese dieses Stammes ist viel gerätselt worden. Auffallend ist, dass viele zentrale Begriffe iranischen Ursprungs sind. Dies betrifft fast alle Titel (...). Einige Gelehrte wollen auch die Eigenbezeichnung türk auf einen iranischen Ursprung zurückführen und ihn mit dem Wort „Turan“, der persischen Bezeichnung für das Land jeneseits des Oxus, in Verbindung bringen.“ Wolfgang-Ekkehard Scharlipp in Die frühen Türken in Zentralasien, p. 18
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Tirgil34 --Cold Season (talk) 00:38, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Name of article

I am a lecturer in premodern Chinese history. When I was looking for this article it took me a while to find it because most of the materials I ask my students to read refer to this group as a political unit known as the First (and later the Second) Turkish or Turkic Empires. I wonder whether it would be worth changing the name of the article to make it easier to search for? Naomi Standen (talk) 12:09, 8 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

removing POV tag with no active discussion per Template:POV

I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:

This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. Remove this template whenever:
  1. There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved
  2. It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given
  3. In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant.

Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 21:53, 21 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Khaganate and Qaghanate

The problem with articles like this is they accumulate multiple transcriptions for terms. So we have ended up with the term Qaghan in the same article with Khaganate. The spelling khagan and khaqan are quite late and come after Islamization and the use of the Arabic script. The early Turkic spelling should be qaghan and qaghanate formed with the English derivative ending on the title of the ruler of these imperial states. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nlight2 (talk • contribs) 12:13, 4 October 2013 (UTC) forgot my Nlight2 (talk) 12:15, 4 October 2013 (UTC) as usual![reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Göktürks. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:37, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]


Türks (kök) → Göktürks – Just per WPMOS, the present name looks like a disambig, but those are followed, in English, at the English Wikipedia, with a descriptor in parenthesis that describes for the layperson the topic of the article. "Türks (kök)" does not, nobody uses "kök" in English, whereas the commonly used scholarly term "Göktürks" as a unit is quite common. Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 10:34, 29 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

German works on Old Turkic inscriptions

Der türkische Text der bilinguelen Inschriften der Mongolei: Erstes Heft: Die Schrift ist eine ... (1900)

https://archive.org/details/dertrkischetext00albegoog

Inscriptions de l'Orkhon déchiffrées (1896)

https://archive.org/details/inscriptionsdel00thomgoog

Über die köktürkische Inschrift auf der Südseite des Kül Takin-Denkmals (1896)

https://archive.org/details/berdiekktr00banguoft

Wörterverzeichniss zu den Inscriptions de l'Iénisseï (1892)

https://archive.org/details/wrterverzeichni00donngoog

Rajmaan (talk) 04:05, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ottoman Turkish work

Orhun abideleri

https://archive.org/details/orhunabideleri00yaziuoft

History of Turks

https://archive.org/details/trktrh00yazi

History of Ottomans

https://archive.org/details/osmnltrh01yazi

https://archive.org/search.php?query=creator%3A%22Yaziksiz%2C+Necib+%27Asim%2C+1861-1935%22

Alleged etymology

GOKTURKS is a huge mistranslation and mistyping of KOTRAGS over the centuries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.70.251.91 (talk) 04:29, 11 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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origins

this user changes all referenced text and provides nonsense notes.[1][2][3] plus he calls me vandal while i just restore the original text188.159.246.87 (talk) 13:13, 30 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I changed no sourced content, but added a reliable and academic one, and thus corrected/improved a sentence. The only one who removes sourced content and makes false summaries and accusations is you. Where did I call anyone vandal? Show proof. Akocsg (talk) 13:31, 30 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ashina origins

I would like a quote from Maenchen-Helfen 1973, pp. 369–375, that states anything about the Ashina.

Text put by Hunan201p (talk · contribs)

Hunan201p copied a two texts from Ashina tribe, which the factuality of its are obvious.

  • Several historians have pointed out that the origin of the Ashina is from the Indo-Aryan Wusun.[42]

This is not true, this is what Klyashtorni says, from the used source: "The theme of the ‘wolf’ in two of the three Türk legends is shared with the Wu-sun, who preceded the Türk Empire by many centuries. Also shared with the Wu-sun is the theme of the mutilated child abandoned in the wilderness by the enemy. According to the Shih-chi, the Wu-sun ruler K’un-mo was cast out to die when still a baby, but was nourished by birds that brought him meat and by a wolf that suckled him. The story is also related in the Han shu and its close relationship with one of the Türk origin myths is obvious. There is, however, the significant difference that, whereas in the Wu-sun myth the wolf saves the ancestor of the tribe, it is not – as in the case of the Türks – the ancestor of the people. (The connections with Mongol myths, though undeniable, should not concern us here." and "Türk system of beliefs linking at least some sections of the Türk ruling class to the Sogdians and, beyond them, to the Wu-sun who – for all we know – may have been Iranians."

"Researchers such as Peter B. Golden,[13] H. W. Haussig,[14] S. G. Klyashtorny,[15][16] A. N. Bernstamm,[17] Carter V. Findley,[18] D.G. Savinov,[19] S. P. Guschin,[20] Rona-Tas[21] and R. N. Frye[22] have pointed out that the origin of the Ashina is from the Indo-Iranian Saka or Wusun.[23]" Let us check one by one:

  • source [13] here "He suggests that it may derive from the Tocharian title arsilanci, stemming, perhaps, from a marital tie of the Türk with the Tocharians of Qocho (Beckwith 1987, 206-208). Shervashidze reads A-shih-na as *Ahsen(a)-sad (< Soghdian: Axsina "blue" + sad, an Iranian title) (1989, 79-80). This Iranian linguistic connection was first put forward by Haussig and Bailey. More recently, Sergei Kliashtornyi has revisisted this theme and, building on the earlier work, suggests that A-shih-na is the transcription of Khotanese-Saka "Asseina/assena "blue" (cf. Soghian *ahsane) or perhaps Tocharian Asna "blue", The Khotanese-Saka form seems closest to "Ashina." This nicely dovetails with the usage "Kök Türk," Blue Türks, found in the Kül Tegin / Bilge Qaghan inscription.
  • source [15] and [19] is not verifiable
  • source [18] Carter V. Findley says: The linguistically non-Turkic name, A-shih-na, probably comesfrom one of the Iranian languages of Central Asia and means “blue,” kök in Turkic, the color identified with the East, so that Kök Türk, another namefor the Türk Empire, meant the “Turks of the East.”"[1]
  • source [20]: “As a result, the incomprehensible“ Sovereign House of Co ”, indicated as the ancestors of the house of Ashin, turns into the“ Saki Land ”somewhere north of the Hun ... those lands where the Pazyryk mounds and the Ukok plateau "[34]," concludes SP Gushchin. taken from here, a pseudo-source. can't find any info who "S P Gushchin" is.
  • source [24] and [42] here it says: "He suggests that it may derive from the Tocharian title arsilanci, stemming, perhaps, from a marital tie of the Türk with the Tocharians of Qocho (Beckwith 1987, 206-208). Shervashidze reads A-shih-na as *Ahsen(a)-sad (< Soghdian: Axsina "blue" + sad, an Iranian title) (1989, 79-80). This Iranian linguistic connection was first put forward by Haussig and Bailey. More recently, Sergei Kliashtornyi has revisisted this theme and, building on the earlier work, suggests that A-shih-na is the transcription of Khotanese-Saka "Asseina/assena "blue" (cf. Soghian *ahsane) or perhaps Tocharian Asna "blue", The Khotanese-Saka form seems closest to "Ashina." This nicely dovetails with the usage "Kök Türk," Blue Türks, found in the Kül Tegin / Bilge Qaghan inscription.
  • source [22], R. N. Frye, here does not even mention Ashina!

I can not verify Rona Tas's content.

Also this does not belongs here but belongs to Ashina tribe. Beshogur (talk) 20:24, 7 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ [Findley, Carter (11 November 2004). The Turks in World History (1 ed.). Oxford University Press. p. 39]

Incorrect or vandalist information about origin

There are some objectionable sources for almost every reality accepted in history. If we add these claims to the content of each text, the result is nothing more than confusion. The paragraph that contains the sentence I continue to delete is "According to the Book of Zhou and History of the Northern Dynasties, the Ashina clan was a component of the Xiongnu confederation, [7] [9] but this is contested. [29]" source 29 is an article called christian. Compared to a history book written on the date mentioned, it has almost no values, I would like you to find it. This resource needs to be deleted Nazarbaevax (talk) 16:50, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 00:07, 10 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

About deleting the lineage image.

OR image

I have recently deleted the given image from this article, as it was completely unsourced and I couldn't find anything to verify it. The poorly researched, low-quality image was added a couple of months ago and created by @Qiushufang:. The image itself claims that all "nomadic peoples" come from a single root by putting them under a tree diagram. Apart from that it puts Uyghur, Turgesh etc. more closely related to Bulgar peoples, which does not make any sense according to historical and linguistic data we have. It is poorly done WP:OR.

Thus, the revert made by @Tutsens Woman: is not justified at all. It is definitely not "vandalism" and it's highly inappropriate to even suggest that. Your revert will be reverted back. --Gogolplex (talk) 10:15, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Poma mask

This article contains a reference to the Silk Road Foundation. It's an online publisher. The website can be found here:

https://www.silkroadfoundation.org

This publication sometimes refers to itself as "Silk Road Journal", but should NOT be confused with Silk Road Journal Online, which has nothing to do with this talk page section.

The Silk Road Journal in question is focuses on Asian archaeology and history. It typically publishes theoretical articles written by mostly Russian and Chinese researchers. There is only one editor of the journal, an American man named Daniel Waugh, who has candidly stated that the journal has no formal peer review:

http://www.silkroadfoundation.org/newsletter/vol15/srjournal_v15.pdf

From the outset, there has been no formal process of peer review, such as one expects in the standard academic journals. We still solicit articles (a task which largely has devolved on me over the years), though we also receive (but have not been overwhelmed by) unsolicited submissions.

Decisions on what to publish (as with any journal) ultimately rest with the editor, who in this case, for better or worse, has acted as the peer reviewer. I often see what I think is gold in material that could never find its way into a standard academic publication. But the perils of rarely seeking outside opinions may mean things slip through without acknowledgement that a subject has been thoroughly treated elsewhere.

The lack of formal peer review does have the unfortunate consequence that junior scholars hoping to advance in their profession may avoid us, since their promotion will depend in the first instance on peer reviewed publication, however excellent (and widely cited) a piece might be which we would publish. Yet in some cases where there is a premium for academics in other countries to publish in a respected journal in English, we have been able to provide just such an opportunity. Many of the senior scholars we have solicited for contributions have politely refused to write for us, since they are already over-committed [...]

So, the Silk Road Foundation is a speedy publishing mill for primary research that is not formally peer reviewed. The editor describes himself as someone who often sees "'gold in material that would never find its way in to a standard academic publication'". A lot of researchers don't want to be published by Silk Road Foundation, and those that do are disproportionately from non-English speaking countries, who struggle to get their theories published in standard English-language journals.

This is pretty much the definition of a predatory publisher.

And predictably, this source contains the kind of erroneous information that one would expect from these kinds of standards. I would just like to note that this source does not even say that this mask is of Göktürk origin or from the Türkic empire. Quite the opposite, it quotes a researcher who says that it is found in association with items (namely, a cup) obtained by trade with the Türkic empire:

The crescent-shaped garnets which depict the beard of

the mask are similar to those of the studs (Inv. Nos. 2001.21.52–53); however the mount of the Boma mask is of much better quality and workmanship, with the cells of the single crescent stones surrounded by an accurate granulation. The “Western” characteristics of the cup with panther handle and of the other fi nds from Boma, have been discussed in detail by Lin Ying (2008). She interpreted them as objects produced in the Turkic Empire of Central Asia and adds that these populations “transmitted material and cultural achievements between East and West, but also combined in their own distinct culture the elements of different civilisations” such as the Byzantine, Iranian,

Indian and Chinese (Ying 2008, p. 25).

Yet, as we would expect from a low quality source, this is unlikely, because this source also got the dating of the mask awfully wrong. This mask is not from the 5th-6th centuries CE. Every source I have seen places the dates of the golden masks to within the 1-5th centuries CE. From The Himalayan gold masks from a Eurasian perspective, Tao Tong and Linhui Li (2016):

The dates of these gold masks are all around the 1st–2nd centuries CE

On the ruby-inlade Poma mask that this section concerns:

one made of gold from a tomb at Poma (1st–5th century CE

Thus this mask actually pre-dates the First Türkic Khaganate, possibly by hundreds of years, so whatever the Silk Road Journal meant by "Turkic empire", this mask has nothing to do with Göktürks, and since no source actually claims it is a Gökturk, much less a Göktürk ruler, it should not be placed here. - Hunan201p (talk) 00:32, 21 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 19 April 2023

Göktürks → Türks – The name Göktürk is the Oghuz (Azerbaijani, Turkmen, Turkish) version for their original name Türk. The recorded names for them in each neighbouring entity was referencing to as Türk, sources such as Chinese, Sogdian, Tibetan etc. called them "Trukut", "Drugu" etc. Also in their own inscriptions, Göktürks mentioned "Kök-Türk" (Gök-Türk) only once in the third line of Kul Tigin Inscriptions' east side, other than this one and only mention, they invariably referred to themselves as "Türk". Even the first word gök was a misspelling. The popular naming "Göktürk" was either a misreading/misspelling of the Turkic word "kök" or Old Turkic "köök" (meaning as noun "sky, heaven, blue" [as opposing to "tengïr" and "tengïz", all meaning "the blue (sky or sea)"] and as adjective "heavenly, ethereal, spheric, celestial") or the Oghuz Turkic version for the word which is “gök” with the same meaning 'sky' or 'blue'. You can access all the information given above in the article itself, particularly in the etymology section of the article Göktürk. 𐰴𐰺𐰀:𐰆𐰍𐰺 · Karakylchyg 12:02, 19 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Is it worth considering "Old Turks", as the name from which their associated language "Old Turkic" actually derives? See Ngrams, and sources such as this, referencing Orkhon inscriptions, born of Göktürk script. Also [4]. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:18, 19 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's vague. Also not a proper name. Beshogur (talk) 18:55, 19 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure if "Ancient Turks" can be something alternative. Beshogur (talk) 20:18, 19 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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