Jump to content

Talk:Anti-Americanism

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Wuwei Emerald (talk | contribs) at 17:10, 8 July 2023 (→Semi-protected edit request on 8 July 2023: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Former good article nomineeAnti-Americanism was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
August 30, 2006Peer reviewReviewed
September 23, 2006Good article nomineeNot listed
February 20, 2008Articles for deletionKept
Current status: Former good article nominee

Lead section

This is a response to this revert, as requested.

The [[WP:FURST|lead paragraph of this article reads:

Anti-Americanism (also called anti-American sentiment)[1] is prejudice, fear or hatred of the American government, its foreign policy, or the American people in general.[2]

The reverted edit had changed "is prejudice, ..." to "is prejudiced ...", but with an edit summary mostly focusing elsewhere, saying: "WP:Bold edit of MOS:LEADSENTENCE bit from 'is prejudice, fear or hatred' to 'is prejudiced fear or hatred'. However, IMO, the whole para needs a rewrite with MOS:OPEN in mind; 'The first paragraph should define or identify the topic with a neutral point of view, but without being too specific. [...]';."

No page number is given in the book cited as a supporting source, but page 4 says: "This book shows how the popular opinion of the United States takes a loose multifaceted form in which negative and positive elements coexist with no apparent tensions."

With or without my edit, it seems to me that there is some tension between the lead para and the source cited in support. Regardless of whether or not I am right about that, I don't believe that the current lead paragraph as written fulfills the mandate of the MOS:OPEN project page. Others may disagree; I'm OK with whatever the consensus is on this. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 14:05, 18 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Concerning the edit I reverted, the use of the word "prejudiced" to modify "fear" (or "hatred") is awkward usage, because those words are not normally used together. In addition, it inaccurately suggests that the fear or hatred is entirely based on prejudice. It might be based on a rational fear or even a rational hatred (perhaps mixed in with prejudice). The earlier version seems okay to me, and I do not really understand your objection to it. Could you be more specific? How would you suggest making the opening paragraph more neutral, or more specific? What do you mean by "tension" between the lead paragraph and sources? NightHeron (talk) 15:58, 18 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This was meant to be just a drive-by edit;
  • I took prejudice to mean, "preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience." ([1], although I didn't look that up until just now), and meant "fear or hatred" to be taken as meaning "preconceived fear or preconceived hatred".
  • By tension here, I meant that the assertion citing the source in support does not seem to me to be an accurate paraphrasing of what I understood the snippet I quoted from that book source to be saying. I just took another look and I see that following the sentence I quoted above, the text there goes on: "My analyses demonstrate that popular anti-Americanism is mostly benign and shallow. It is far from being a prejudice or an ingrained view of ideological opposition, ...". I didn't look at the cited supporting source until discussing this here on the talk page, and do see some tension there with the assertion the book is cited to support.
I'll leave it to regular editors of this article to make whatever improvements are needed. I may or may not take another look at this article when I see it pop up on my watchlist again. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 19:18, 18 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Denis Lacorne, "Anti-Americanism and Americanophobia: A French Perspectives." (2005).
  2. ^ Chiozza, Giacomo (2009). Anti-Americanism and the World Order. Baltimore, Maryland: The Johns Hopkins University Press.

Anti-Americanism

This article it's a joke. Objectivity is totally absent, we feel the anger of the one who writes Look that " In France, the term "Anglo-Saxon" is often used in expressions of anti-Americanism or Anglophobia. It also has had more nuanced uses in discussions by French writers on French decline, especially as an alternative model to which France should aspire, how France should adjust to its two most prominent global competitors, and how it should deal with social and economic modernization" A very nice sentence to criticize France. But all article it's like that. Stop taking yourself for models, American friends, you tire the planet — Preceding unsigned comment added by SwaxawS (talk • contribs) 22:31, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You probably won't get much cooperation if you begin a post by criticizing editors who contribute to this article and end by making anti-American comments. Anti-Americanism is an irrational hatred of the U.S. and is distinguished from rational criticism of U.S. society and its politics. It obviously takes a different form in France than say in English Canada since in the first case it builds on anglo-phobia while in the second case it was built on anglo-philia. It's not a criticism of France or English Canada. TFD (talk) 00:50, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I disagreed you putting "irrational hatred" as equal as Anti-Americanism. I do consider Anti-Americanism include rational criticism and dislike based on real world events. What you suggesting here is like saying people in other countries who dislike American are blindly haters while in fact they do have plenty of reasons disliking the USPurekung (talk) 13:57, 28 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You may, but what do RS think?Slatersteven (talk) 14:00, 28 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]


What is RS? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Purekung (talk • contribs) 14:06, 28 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Reliable sources please read wp:rs.Slatersteven (talk) 14:08, 28 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oh ok. I am not saying Reliable sources is not needed. I just found your definition of Anti-Americanism a bit concerning. Not saying Reliable sources is not important Purekung (talk) 14:11, 28 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well I am saying it is needed to back up your definition.Slatersteven (talk) 14:18, 28 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Then what back up your definition?Purekung (talk) 14:19, 28 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well if you mean statements like "For this reason, critics sometimes argue the label is a propaganda term that is used to dismiss any censure of the United States as irrational", the source is in the text already. Other than that I can see no edit by TFD adding this. So what are you objecting to?Slatersteven (talk) 14:43, 28 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Australian submarine crisis

Do any of the sources say this has increased or led to (or even mention) anti-Americanism? If not then this is not an example of it.Slatersteven (talk) 10:16, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@31NOVA: join in on this discussion.CycoMa (talk) 10:22, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Slatersteven and CycoMa: The source mentions an anti-American political figure, he is not alone of course, the events obviously led to anti-Americanism. --31NOVA (talk) 10:25, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
So? I have no doubt he holds many views. The wording says this "has awakened some anti-American behavior", does it say that?Slatersteven (talk) 10:28, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Slatersteven: okay, so what you're saying is that we should change this sentence? Something like "leaders denounced the events and raised anti-Americanism"? --31NOVA (talk) 10:30, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The whole papragraph has been objected to. per wp:brd it should be removed until consensus is reached to include it. I am saying I do not see the relevance of any of it. And no "ean-Luc Mélenchon, denounced the United States. For the presidential candidate whose speech is often marked by anti-Americanism" does not support the idea that has Awakened it, as he never stopped.Slatersteven (talk) 10:33, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I see, well where should we include that paragraph? Nowhere? --31NOVA (talk) 10:36, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That is what I said.Slatersteven (talk) 10:37, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, sorry for the inconvenience, you could have told me to go to the talk page directly after my 2-3 reverts, without the ping I wouldn't be here. --31NOVA (talk) 10:42, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Then please remove it and make a case as to how this is a major example of French anti-Americanism, we do not have to have every pronouncment by Jean-Luc Mélenchon.Slatersteven (talk) 10:49, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I just removed it, stop insisting when we are in agreement on removing the paragraph. --31NOVA (talk) 11:36, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I was not aware you had agreed to remove it, thank you for doing so.Slatersteven (talk) 11:41, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 27 February 2022

Though, it is fair to be noted, maybe not as justification but atleast to understand the situation, America's actions for money and power (economic and political) has influenced indirectly and directly the death of millions of Muslims in Muslim-majority countries. Such a view can be historically evidenced and defended. The idea is that, though there may be some aggressive people and groups, they represent a miniscule percentage of the Muslim societies, they are clear anomalies. People are 'just living their lives', and then when America decides to apply force, they don't value Muslim lives as much as they would others, whether consciously or unconsciously. Due to these, movements like ‘The war on terror’ and their people, are seen in some ways as the terrorists themselves by causing, literally, terror. [1] 2.27.123.242 (talk) 00:34, 27 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not done. Your source is not about anti-Americanism, and so it doesn't belong here. NightHeron (talk) 00:43, 27 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Smith, William (25 September 2020). "The truth about the war on terror". The Hill. Retrieved 27 February 2022.

Pakistan hate US

75% Population of Pakistan hate US,because US destroy Pakistan economy in 20 years of war Pakistanis hate US more than Russia,China,North Korea. 203.101.165.202 (talk) 14:36, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

source? Slatersteven (talk) 14:46, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Communist critiques

This part of the article seems heavily dominated by East Germany, and leaves out modern Socialist and Communist criticism (areas that could be addressed include:

1. American treatment of Native Americans: In East Germany for example, there was a very big pro-Native movement, Communists as early as even the 1920s were critising the USA on these grounds. The primary example being Mirsaid Sultan-Galiev. And of course, modern Communists and Socialists who criticse the US on these grounds too.

2. American treatment of African Americans. Many Soviet posters were made condemming the USA for how it discriminated against the African American population.

3. American imperialism: The USA was viewed as an imperialist power in the wake of the Korean War, Vietnam, Cuba, and pretty much any and all acts of American involvement in regime change during the Cold War period that were known about.

As for East Germany, I'm not entirely sure why this part of the page gives such a focus to them, all things considered. Perhaps parts of it could be trimmed down? Genabab (talk) 13:25, 6 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Also, there are many problems with the section's treatment of East Germany. Several of the claims are unsupported by sources; there are 4 citation needed templates, of which 2 are from four years ago and 2 are from 1 1/2 years ago. The parts that are sourced rely too much on one book (Schnorr's The Good and the Bad America). I can't check that source, since it's behind a paywall. It's not clear whether the direct quote "terrorist international of murderers on Wall Street" is Schnorr's paraphrase or words of East Germans quoted by Schnorr. In either case it seems chosen out of context (and possibly mistranslated) in order to make East Germany look ridiculous. The main problem I see with the section is failure to adhere to WP:V and WP:NPOV.
If you have better sources for criticism of the US by socialist bloc countries, please feel free to extensively edit the section. NightHeron (talk) 14:42, 6 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
<nowiki>I don't think those are examples of anti-Americanism. Lots of patriotic Americans for example opposed racial discrimination. I agree though that the East German section is too long. Note the quote, "Marx...did not participate in the anti-Americanism that came to be the hallmark of Communist ideology in the twentieth century." It would be helpful to explain how Communist anti-Americanism departed from Marxist analysis. TFD (talk) 17:57, 6 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We have to be careful about adding material to this section (or the article in general) that describes opposition to the US government but does not necessarily meet the definition of anti-Americanism given at the beginning of the article: "prejudice, fear or hatred of the United States, its government, its foreign policy, or Americans in general". I think the best approach would be to add material only if there's a reliable secondary source that uses the term anti-Americanism to describe the viewpoint.

I doubt that most scholars would use the term "anti-American" to refer to the viewpoint among some Native Americans that they should form a separate country, any more than they would use "anti-American" to refer to the Southern successionists in the Civil War.

Also, we should keep in mind the criticism of the over-use of the term. The section on "Interpretations" mentions, for example, the writings of Max Paul Friedman, who documents cases where the charge of "anti-Americanism" was used to deflect legitimate criticism and advice (such as French advice to President Kennedy not to send troops to Vietnam).

As far as communist anti-Americanism is concerned, there might be statements from the Soviet Union and/or China during the height of the Cold War that reliable sources would call "anti-American". Also, some communist groups in Latin America used rhetoric that sources might have termed "anti-American" (such as Sendero Luminoso in Peru, or in Cuba, where at one point a favorite slogan was Cuba si, Yankee no!). NightHeron (talk) 11:46, 8 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted last 2 paragraphs of section

Reasons: (1) poorly sourced (as far as I can see, the sources don't specifically support the use of the term "anti-American", and so use of the term is WP:OR); (2) the "back to Africa" and other such movements do not seem to fall under the definition of the term in the lead ("heavily critical of America", the wording used in the deleted text, is not the same as anti-Americanism); (3) most of the people in those movements were not communists (socialist views are not the same as communism); (4) the Confederate States are not discussed in the article as an example of anti-Americanism, so there's a lack of balance in describing secessionist sentiments among minority groups as being anti-American. NightHeron (talk) 10:30, 27 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Removed poorly sourced sentence about Russia

I removed a sentence and the two sources, references 91 and 92, that were given. 92 is a dead link, and 91 is over 10 years old, so does not contain the "latest polls". It is obviously way out-of-date if you look at the Google translate, since it includes Belorussia and China among Russia's main enemies. Currently Belorussia is supporting Putin's war against Ukraine, and China is also more an ally than an enemy. NightHeron (talk) NightHeron (talk) 20:36, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 8 July 2023

Change the misspelled word "Paraguyan" to "Paraguayan", only. Wuwei Emerald (talk) 17:10, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Anti-Americanism&oldid=1164291418"