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What is evidence?

I have not entered this debate lightly. I am a homeopath. Science is uncomfortable with not being able to explain things and so those who don't actually study or practice its intricate detail but have garnered together a smattering of knowledge muddy the water with words such as improbable, inconclusive and placebo. Samuel Hahnemann knew his discovery might be controversial and depsite being a prolific writer on the subject he seems to have carefully avoided writing at length on explantions of how homeopathy works. He preferred instead to call it "the medicine of experience", inferring that people should find out for themselves. Thats what I did. I went to a homeopath who changed my life with a single tiny pill. Suddenly I was on the road to Damascus. Don't tell me placebo is that dynamic or powerful. I had attended my appointment in my usual state of semi-hopeful indifference and was not hypnotized or asked to believe anything. Meanwhile I would not ask a doctor of medicine for an opinion on homeopathy. That would be like asking a car mechanic to comment on the state of your household plumbing. You have to eat, sleep and breath homeopathy for about five years to get close to succesful practice. Then of course there are a proportion of people who don't appear to respond well to anything you give them. Once you get into research it seems to me the authentic voice of reason gets lost. I have made people regret coming to see me as a patient, so inconvenient was their reaction. Eruptions on gentitals that I was asked to assist with removing got a lot worse intially. Skin conditions may aggravate badly. I have seen much much more than this. And people (god bless them) just do not listen to what you tell them beforehand, then rush to their G.P. for somthing to calm it all down and prevent the cure taking place.Nick Biggins 23:59, 6 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Improbable, inconclusive, and placebo are not science's way of trying to attack homeopathy. They are statistical terms they are used correctly in the research because there is an objective point in which those terms are used. rmosler 10:09, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pseudoscience

Judging from the article on Pseudoscience and Falsifiability, for an assertion to be pseudoscience it must be phrased in such a way that it can never be disproven through empirical research. It is distinct from protoscience in that protoscience is at least plausible even if it hasn't been proven or disproven.

The arguments for making homeopathy a pseudoscience are:

  • Metastudies of clinical trials and other studies offer unconvincing proof that homeopathy is efficacious
  • The subjective nature of prescribing a remedy make falsifiability difficult
  • The proposed physical mechanism involving infinitely small or no active ingredients in a dose has no basis in known laws of physics

The arguments against making homeopathy a pseudoscience are:

  • The practice of proofing builds on empirical evidence
  • Proposed explanations for how and why homeopathy works (or seems to work) are not the starting point for homeopathy but rather attempts to explain observed phenomena.

My observation is that homeopaths differ from, say, astrologists, in that they at least try to make their case through empirical observations. One could argue whether they succeed or who they convince, of course, but they're not eluding the truth or critical observation the way relatively undisputed pseudoscientists do. --Leifern 19:58, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

hm. I would say there can't be any empirical observations. Should these have been made, there would be overwhelming evidence that it doesn't work. PLacebo explains it all.Sikkema 23:53, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually I think that in the end it would be better to merge homeopathy with religion. It is based upon beliefs. Sikkema 23:53, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]


The key is not falsifiability by itself but a general claim that one is engaging in science when one is not. And in fact, many homeopathic claims are phrased in ways that are unfalsifiable or the proponents refuse to engage in any tests that would falsify it (also note that the same is true for astrology, while some astrological claims are unfalsifiable, others are not and others are simply made without any cooperation with attempts to falsify them). In any event, what really matters is the presence of reliable sources calling it pseudoscience. JoshuaZ 20:12, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
That is incorrect. The standard for categorization is higher because categories appear without annotation or qualification. In other words, it's not enough to have any reliable source make a claim. It MUST be non-controversial and self-evident. --Lee Hunter 20:43, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It is non-controversial and self-evident to all but true believers. We have more than enough sources making this clear. JoshuaZ 20:47, 18 December 2006 (UTC) And in any event, as discussed previously what you are talking about is a guideline. JoshuaZ 20:48, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it's a guideline. And as an admin you should know that guidelines are there to give guidance and help resolve disputes. You can always ignore guidelines but you should be ready with a darn good explanation if people challenge you. So far, all I've heard is "oh it's only a guideline". Yes. Indeed. It is a guideline. So how do you justify trashing it? Furthermore, as I've pointed out it's not only the "true believers" who have objected to the imposition of POV cats on this article. Several people who are strongly opposed to homeopathy have also opposed the quackery category as have others, presumably neutral, who have arrived via RFC. It really is offensive that you keep trying to portray this as a struggle being fought by the "true believers" versus the rational thinkers. It's more like the people who want to use shrill, ambiguous POV categories versus the people who think the article is better without them. --Lee Hunter 21:05, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Lee, when we were discussing the merits of applying the Quackery category, and (although entirely disagreeing on the validity of homeopathy) we agreed that it should be removed, you said (archived in the last talk page) 'I would also have no problem with a "medical pseudoscience" category applied to homeopathy.' What changed??! Loxlie 05:56, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The current version of the article is not in the Quack cat. Just so we are clear on what is being discussed here. --EthicsGradient 21:28, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I just can't get past the irony of the fact that some of you want to apply a non-rigorous, subjective definition to a field that seeks precision and unassailable logic. Guidelines can be rejected if they're inconvenient; people who subscribe to something are "true believers," a few editors on Wikipedia get to decide whether people are really engaging in science or not. This is a surreal discussion at this point. --Leifern 21:01, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Homeopathy seeks "precision and unassailable logic"? Jefffire 13:55, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It must be the same precision and logic that Leifern uses to turn 600 signatures critical of Homeopathy into something supporting Homeopathy. I agree with him that the discussion has become surreal, though. --EthicsGradient 15:16, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
My entire point was that if a petition expressing alarm about homeopathy only gets 600 signatures across the UK, then there can't be overwhelming and staunch opposition to it. But this is all about categorization - if categories such as pseudoscience mean anything at all, they should be based on criteria that are as objective as possible. --Leifern 15:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You are making an assumption. See above. I am still waiting for 600 or more signatures supporting Homeopathy emanating from scientists. Rememeber, this is about what mainstream science thinks of Homeopathy. --EthicsGradient 15:26, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No more an assumption than the person who presented this piece of news as conclusive evidence that homeopathy should be categorized one way or another. I am not nor have ever proposed that homeopathy be presented as something uncontroversial and uncontested. And this "mainstream science" is such a vague reference - there is no such thing as a monolithic "scientific establishment." --Leifern 15:28, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It was a quick search, done in a few minutes. I did not present it as a conclusive evidence, but as an example. There are more to be found - see for example [1] (already cited in the article). This is from a board of 350 physicians, scientists and policy advisors in the US, Again I ask you to produce something similar, i.e. certified scientists signing up as being positive to homeoapthy. Bear in mind that asking a chemist, biochemist or physicist whether homeoaphty is a worthwile theory to build research on is like asking them to accept that the earth is flat. I.e., one does not usually bother to poll them on this. --EthicsGradient 15:48, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Sikkema 22:05, 16 January 2007 (UTC) Let's calculate something here. If you dissolve an aspirin of 500 mg in a glass of water, there will be 0.5/180 = 0.0277 moles of aspirin in the glass. (0.5 grams divided by the molecular weight of aspirin.) This in turn corresponds to 166754000000000000000000 or 1.66754 * 1022 molecules in that single glass of water. And yet, this quantity barely succeeds in curing your headache. How, then, can the presence of one (1) or no molecule at all, of ANY substance have ANY effect whatsoever?[reply]

Also, I object to the statement that the "field seeks logic". A lot of research that was done by homeopaths themselves was systematically flawed, that is, the researchers knew which vials held the "active" ingredient etc. Furthermore, I would like to suggest that the word pseudoscience no longer be used for the practice of homeopathy, since it still has the word "science" in it.

An old vaudeville joke puts it: "Is your doctor a Homeopath or an Osteopath" "I don't know, but they say all Paths lead to the grave!"

Criticism section

Shouldn't there be a criticism section? Right now, there are sections on it's popularity, scientific testing, misconceptions about it, and safety, but not much negative about. --AW 19:18, 3 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]


I read a lot of scientific literature so let me conclude this: i) scientific testing has really (really!!) shown that it does not work ii) if there is any misconception about it, it is that it works. iii) safety is not an issue: no substance can cause harm if it is not there iv) it's popularity should therefore be vigouously combated, by law for example. Sikkema 00:08, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
you cannot keep the fools, say greater fools, in the right direction, when they willingly desirous to go in the wrong directions.user:debbe 27 January 2007, 13:00 UTC


I agree that there needs to be a criticism section on Homeopathy. Looking through the article on medicine, there is a lengthy section on criticism. In this article it may be present in responses to claims of homeopathy; however, this article is at least by heading biased towards the fringe topic. rmosler 11:15, 20 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It certainly can't hurt. There are still several POV-issues, though I'm trying to lessen them (for example, the report on the NCCAM statement on homeopathy was very... bad. It ignored large sections critical to it, while quoting, in copyvio form, the exact text of the non-critical parts. Adam Cuerden talk 12:13, 20 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Adam, you have been present here longer than I have. Would you or someone else be willing to start a section containing an "evidence based science's rebuttal"? rmosler 10:12, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rename as "Randi on Homeopathy"?

Since we already have more citations and links to Randi than is reasonable (3), adding a fourth to a YouTube video would be simply bizarre since he's essentially saying the same thing in each case. If we're going this route we might as well rename the article to "Randi on Homeopathy". --Lee Hunter 14:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps before we start an all-out edit war about what links should be included and which should be kept we could discuss general criteria for inclusion? If the Randi link is redundant, some of the advocating links should also go. --EthicsGradient 15:27, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Any redundant links should be removed. It doesn't matter whether they're pro or con. I've worked on a number of controversial articles, and this is the first one I've seen that gives a single supportive or critical individual - ONE person and not even a person with any particular qualifications other than being a stage magician and debunker-for-hire - FOUR separate citations. Of course, Randi should be given coverage. I totally agree that he is a prominent critic and his viewpoint should be represented. But it only needs to be represented once because he's always making exactly the same points each time. I can overlook the other instances, but the video is nothing but a regurgitation of the Avogadro formula, a bit of bragging about swallowing remedies and finishes off with a straightforward sales pitch for financial contributions to the James Randi Foundation (according to his web site you too can support Randi with a donation from 100 to 10,000 dollars!). At best, we're giving grossly undue weight to one person's opinion and at worst it's link spam and completely inappropriate. --Lee Hunter 21:14, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure how offering a link to a video can be considered redundant. There is no other link to such a video presentation anywhere else in the article, so where is the redundancy? This article already lacks a "criticism of the theory" section, which would be highly fitting for pseudo-scientific theory such as this. The only criticism offered in the article is in the form a few links at the bottom of the page. I attempted to change one of the links from this...

to this...

...and the change was reverted. Reverts such as this, along with the lack of a "criticism of the theory" section, seems like an attempt to suppress critical information of this theory by its supporters. The article is overwhelmingly positive of the theory, and I don't see how the extra link I added can be argued to tip the POV in favor of the negative. A theory such as this which scientifically implausible and which consistently fails double blind tests deserves more criticism than which is presented here. Big Brother 1984 00:33, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I misread the edit. I assumed that you were trying to add a fourth Randi link. I still think the video itself is more like spam since it's just Randi repeating his debunking schtick (well-covered by the other Randi links) and then pitching for financial contributions. --Lee Hunter 01:18, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You have answered none of BB1984's concerns. We believe that the Randi video is an accessible summary of his views on homeopathy, which are supported by evidence-based medicine. You are removing the link as part of an ongoing campaign to squelch criticism of homeopathy. I am perplexed that you would attack Randi for soliciting financial contributions while maintaining links to commercial homeopathy sites that sell highly questionable medical products. In the spirit of equanimity, concision, and presumed good faith I have removed the commercial links from the advocacy section, and deleted some "redundant" links as well. I mean, how many different "historical" or "biographical" or "timeline" sites do we need to broadcast your point of view? Cheers, Skinwalker 02:03, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This is just normal Wikipedia editing. You want to have four links to this one person who runs a business as a critic of homeopathy - and all of them saying the same thing. Is the Google video the most accessible version of his argument? Fine. Let's keep that one and get rid of some of the others. This is simply in keeping with the way all articles are edited. You can't keep adding more and more links to this one person who says exactly the same thing. At some point it becomes nothing more than spam. Regarding the links you removed, mostly I agree that they are not necessary. Links to individual clinics or dispensaries are link spam and should be removed. I've actually found a couple more in the advocacy section which shouldn't be there. But out of the links you removed, there is one site which provides a condensed history of homeopathy. It's non-commercial, well-annotated and I don't see it as redundant and I'd like to restore that one. --Lee Hunter 02:21, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]


I only count two Randi links in the critical section. They do not all say the same thing. Please add your historical link back; I don't object to one or two well-written histories. While we're on the topic: why is [2] in the critical link section? I'm officially amused... afraid that one will have to be deleted under both of our standards. Cheers, Skinwalker 02:32, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Randi is a stage magician, a professional fraud. Why is he being used to attack...pardon, critique homeopathy at all?....Brian 21 February, 2007

Because he's trained as a stage magician, but uses his knowledge of stage magic to identify frauds, who try to defraud people using stage magic. Can you show one verifiable report saying he's anything but ethical?. Adam Cuerden talk 06:50, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Homeopathy in Belgium

According to the current Wikipedia article, 56% of Belgians are using homeopathy. Not only is this number much, much higher than the other countries that are mentioned (Denmark is not even a close second at 28%), but it is completely inconsistent with official Belgian health surveys. Please go to http://www.iph.fgov.be/sasweb/his/nl/index.htm for official Belgian health surveys of 1997 and 2001. Both raw and processed data are available. The 2001 survey shows alternative medicine use in the previous year to be 11%, of which 6% can be attributed to homeopathy. This number has risen from 8% alternative medicine use in the previous year in 1997, 45% of which is homeopathy. I assume that the number is misinterpreted, and that perhaps 56% of all Belgians using alternative medicine are using homeopathy, but not 56% of the entire population as the Wikipedia article states --134.58.253.130 19:32, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This could do with a subsection on the UK, given the recent controversial legal changes (which as I understand it made it legal to promote homeopathic remedies with a lower standard of testing than for conventional treatments). Anyone who knows about it care to write it? Ben Finn 14:49, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

POV

I've added a POV tag because not only does the article ignore the scientific viewpoint throughout almost the entirety of it, it also actively misrepresents it by quoting every single rare study that showed a positive effect, while dismissing the majority of studies by comparing them to these flukes in dismissive terms. This is a gross violation of WP:Undue Weight. Adam Cuerden talk 22:44, 2 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

1. What IS the "scientific viewpoint"? Please provide documentation clearly establishing that there exists a single, uniform (as you imply) "scientific viewpoint" at variance with the substance of this WP article. Thanks.

2. "Quoting every single rare (?) study that showed a positive effect"? Pardon, but have you had any contact with the published literature on this subject? I have not had much, myself, but what I have had indicates that there is a lively, ongoing discussion of the matter with no clear "winners" and "losers". There have been many scores of studies published, most of them methodologically weak and therefore difficult to evaluate. This WP article cites only a small smattering of the total literature on the subject, not even close to "every single" study. So where do you get off making such statements, Sir Cuerden? Did it cross your mind to take a brief look (say, 15 minutes research) before rendering a judgement like that? Apparently not.

The reason I came to this page on wiki was that I just read the abstract of a meta-analysis of homeopathy studies, published in the Lancet, and it crossed my mind to check to see if it was cited on the WP writeup. Turns out it was not cited. It also so happens that this meta-analysis was rather muddled and came up a wash, concluding... well, not concluding very darn much except that there seems to be more to it (homeopathy) than placebo. See below.

I am also attaching another abstract which questions RCT methodology as a means to evaluate homeopathic practice; to wit: "the double-blind randomized controlled trial (RCT), the chief means by which homeopathic remedies and prescribing are tested, is...based on a linear reductionism that is too blunt an instrument with which to test the efficacy of complex interventions such as homeopathy." Interesting assertion.

Sir Cuerden, the published literature, and the ongoing discussion amongst knowledgeable people, is much more interesting than your bald, ignorant claims. Check it out! Become a READER, rather than a mere table-pounder!

-- Alan2012 16:41, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

................................................................................

Lancet. 1997 Sep 20;350(9081):834-43

Erratum in: Lancet 1998 Jan 17;351(9097):220.

Comment in: Lancet. 1997 Sep 20;350(9081):824. Lancet. 1997 Sep 20;350(9081):825. Lancet. 1998 Jan 31;351(9099):365-6; author reply 367-8. Lancet. 1998 Jan 31;351(9099):365; author reply 367-8. Lancet. 1998 Jan 31;351(9099):365; author reply 367-8. Lancet. 1998 Jan 31;351(9099):366-7; author reply 367-8. Lancet. 1998 Jan 31;351(9099):366; author reply 367-8. Lancet. 1998 Jan 31;351(9099):366; author reply 367-8. Lancet. 1998 Jan 31;351(9099):367. Lancet. 1998 Jan 31;351(9099):368.

Are the clinical effects of homeopathy placebo effects? A meta-analysis of placebo-controlled trials.

Linde K, Clausius N, Ramirez G, Melchart D, Eitel F, Hedges LV, Jonas WB.

Munchener Modell, Centre for Complementary Medicine Research, Technische Universitat/Ludwig-Maximillans-Universitat, Munchen, Germany.

BACKGROUND: Homeopathy seems scientifically implausible, but has widespread use. We aimed to assess whether the clinical effect reported in randomised controlled trials of homeopathic remedies is equivalent to that reported for placebo. METHODS: We sought studies from computerised bibliographies and contracts with researchers, institutions, manufacturers, individual collectors, homeopathic conference proceedings, and books. We included all languages. Double-blind and/or randomised placebo-controlled trials of clinical conditions were considered. Our review of 185 trials identified 119 that met the inclusion criteria. 89 had adequate data for meta-analysis, and two sets of trial were used to assess reproducibility. Two reviewers assessed study quality with two scales and extracted data for information on clinical condition, homeopathy type, dilution, "remedy", population, and outcomes. FINDINGS: The combined odds ratio for the 89 studies entered into the main meta-analysis was 2.45 (95% CI 2.05, 2.93) in favour of homeopathy. The odds ratio for the 26 good-quality studies was 1.66 (1.33, 2.08), and that corrected for publication bias was 1.78 (1.03, 3.10). Four studies on the effects of a single remedy on seasonal allergies had a pooled odds ratio for ocular symptoms at 4 weeks of 2.03 (1.51, 2.74). Five studies on postoperative ileus had a pooled mean effect-size-difference of -0.22 standard deviations (95% CI -0.36, -0.09) for flatus, and -0.18 SDs (-0.33, -0.03) for stool (both p < 0.05). INTERPRETATION: The results of our meta-analysis are not compatible with the hypothesis that the clinical effects of homeopathy are completely due to placebo. However, we found insufficient evidence from these studies that homeopathy is clearly efficacious for any single clinical condition. Further research on homeopathy is warranted provided it is rigorous and systematic.

Publication Types: Meta-Analysis Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't

PMID: 9310601

..................................................................................

J R Soc Health. 2006 Sep;126(5):211-8

Comment in: J R Soc Health. 2006 Nov;126(6):250.

Is homeopathy possible?

Milgrom LR.

Department of Chemistry, Imperial College of Science, Technology and Medicine, South Kensington, Exhibition Road, London SW7 2AZ, UK. l.milgrom@ic.ac.uk

As a therapeutic intervention, homeopathy is the target of increased scepticism because in the main, its remedies are diluted and succussed (potentized) out of material existence. This puts homeopathy seemingly at odds with the paradigm of conventional science, in particular, that atoms and molecules are the fundamental building blocks of all matter. Accordingly, homeopathy cannot work, so that any reported beneficial effects must, at best, be due to the placebo effect. The purpose of this article is to challenge that conclusion and to suggest that there may well be conventional science-based explanations of how homeopathy could be possible. Homeopathy's key principles are first described. Then the double-blind randomized controlled trial (RCT), the chief means by which homeopathic remedies and prescribing are tested, is shown to be based on a linear reductionism that is too blunt an instrument with which to test the efficacy of complex interventions such as homeopathy. The memory of water hypothesis, as a mechanism for how potentized remedies might work, is reviewed, along with some evidence for its existence. A possible rationale for the water memory effect is proposed in terms of a dynamic 'ordering' of water's constantly switching network of intermolecular hydrogen bonds, induced by the manufacturing process of homeopathic remedies. This could lead to a long-range molecular 'coherence' between trillions of mobile water molecules. However, the water memory effect is an essentially pharmacological explanation of homeopathy's putative efficacy. It is pointed out that healing also entails an interaction between consenting beings. From this point of view, an explanation of any therapeutic procedure should include an attempt to describe the nature of the patient-practitioner interaction. From this perspective, a quantum theoretical treatment of the therapeutic process, involving a form of macro-entanglement between patient, practitioner and remedy (PPR), is advanced as another possible explanation of the homeopathy's efficacy. This shows that the reason double-blind RCTs deliver at best only equivocal results on homeopathy's efficacy is because it effectively breaks the PPR entangled state. A comparison is made between the entanglement-breaking effect of double-blind RCTs and the wave-function 'collapsing' effect of observation in orthodox quantum theory. The article concludes by suggesting that the memory of water and PPR entanglement are not competing but most likely complementary hypotheses, and that both are probably required in order to provide a complete description of the homeopathic process. While awaiting experimental evidence of these hypotheses, it is suggested that observations of clinical outcomes would be superior to RCTs for further testing homeopathy's efficacy.

Publication Types: Review

PMID: 17004404


First of all the Lancet has been known for it's spattering of controversial articles, many times resulting in a retraction. I need to do more research before addressing the article you listed.
Is there a scientific concensus for or against homeopathy? If you attempt to earn a natural scientific degree at an accredited university you will most likely have to take a chemistry or physics class. Homeopathy flys directly in the face of deeply accepted scientific theories. Homeopathy is unable at this time to overthrow any of these theories since it does nothing to progress the fields in question (look a the scientific method). So I would say that yes, there is a scientific concensus against homeopathy. rmosler 09:54, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Ok I am back, first of all this is a discussion. It is rude to place the abstracts on this page way too "tl;dr". Perhaps in the future you should simply add a link to the abstract. Second of all you list 10 year old articles. There must be a great deal of research that is within the past 5-10 years. Have you read over the responses which were listed and the authors replies? rmosler 10:05, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's not really clear what the headings mean in the external links section. Does 'neutral' or 'critical' refer to the source or the content? For example, the BBC Horizon doc is a neutral source, but is critical of homeopathy. Famousdog 21:16, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Gross NPOV violations

this article REPATEDLY bashes all forms of alternative medicine without cites its source.s for exmaple here:

"In some trials, homeopathy appeared to be no more helpful than a placebo"

homeopaty is a serious medical condition tat has proven to be far more powerufl than an ordianry placebo. i sugest that the editors look up the definitiosn of the word placedo before they look it and usei tas an attack ad on this major protoscience that is on the verge of become true medical fact.

"In the United States, homeopathic remedies are, like all health-care products, regulated by the Food and Drug Administration. However, the FDA treats homeopathic remedies very differently than conventional medicines. Homeopathic products do not need FDA approval before sale; they do not have to be proven either safe or effective; they do not have to be labeled with an expiration date; and they do not have to undergo finished product testing to verify contents and strength. Unlike conventional drugs, homeopathic remedies do not have to identify their active ingredients on the grounds that they have few or no active ingredients. In the USA, only homeopathic medicines that claim to treat self-limiting conditions may be sold over the counter; homeopathic medicines that claim to treat a serious disease can be sold only by prescription."

this section usesing the word claims over and over and makes no sense and insults homeopathic professionals. i demand that this artcle be rewritten. Smith Jones 20:37, 18 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, but your assertion that Homeopathy is better than a placebo is patently false. All large-scale, well-conducted studies have shown no evidence of this. Only small scale or non-double blind studies have shown any evidence it was better than placebo - as might be expected, given random chance. Adam Cuerden talk 21:24, 18 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"Not proven" isn't the same as "disproven". See Pseudoskepticism#_note-9. regards, Jim Butler(talk) 05:01, 7 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Homeopathic Rsearch Shows That IT is efective and powerful

i'm sorry but noted scientist Jacques Beneveniste completed a stunning experiment that showed the efficativenes of theories such as watter memory and the devolopment of himeopathic remedies based on said theory. in fact, according to Nature magazine, benevneiste's experiment was incredibly sucessful and a number o experts in the field of homoepathic medicine have analyzed and came up with the same experiments results after even jacques benebistes death. This information should be added to any facts about homeopathy, since Jacques beneviste is one of the most noted contributors to the modern science of homeopathy. Smith Jones 22:08, 18 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You have no idea what that article you linked to says, do you? It opens:
Nobel laureates face libel suits from 'water memory' researcher
The long-running saga of research on the 'memory of water' has reopened with a splash, with libel suits being filed against three scientists — including two Nobel prizewinners — by Jacques Benveniste, the French researcher who claimed in 1988 to have shown that extreme dilutions of antibody solutions could retain their biological activity (see Nature 333, 816; 1988).
The charges are based on statements made by the scientists in January in the newspaper Le Monde which suggested that Benveniste's research may have been fraudulent.
Are you serious in using a report about the researcher being accused of being fraudulent as evidence of how stunning his research was?! Adam Cuerden talk 06:43, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have cut the citation to the Website of Homeopathe International that was used as a citation for the following line: It is possible that the study of Freemasonry under the guidance of his Patron, the Grand Duke Ferdinand of Anhalt-Coethen influenced his thinking.<ref>[http://www.homeoint.org/history/king/1-02.htm Website of Homéopathe International]</ref>, I went to the site and it did not mention Grand Duke Ferdinand or Freemasonry at all. Blueboar 18:29, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The fact tag that I placed for this has gone unanswered for a week now, so I am going to cut the statement itself. If someone actually is trying to find a source for this statement, add it back once you find it. thanks. Blueboar 13:55, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Better sourcing for scientific consensus

Although I'm sure the majority of the scientific community is skeptical at best about homeopathy, the sources in the lead section do not appear to be adequate V RS's to support this statement:

Scientists describe homeopathy as pseudoscience <ref>Homeopathy at UK-Skeptics</ref> and quackery.<ref>NCAHF Position Paper on Homeopathy National Council Against Health Fraud</ref>

I suggest we try and find some better ones, along the lines of those cited at List of scientific societies rejecting intelligent design. best regards, Jim Butler(talk) 08:13, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Better sources are always good. The first citation you talk about (UK -skeptics) looks questionable according to WP:ATT - as it could be self-published (there is no indication as to who owns the page). Blueboar 14:07, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes; NCAHF is self-published also. Not to say that such scientific skeptical org's don't have their place in the sun in WP, but I do think we an do better for attributing sci majority a/o sci consensus views. Will start by searching online commentaries by various Academies of Sciences. cheers, Jim Butler(talk) 17:51, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
OK, how's this? best regards, Jim Butler(talk) 10:16, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Adam, I think you're probably right about "many"[3], but we still need to reference this properly as has been done with ID-related topics, or else just let the facts speak for themselves. Sorry to tread on any strong opinions, but since this is about science I'll just appeal to reason.  :-) Suggest this[4] instead. thanks, Jim Butler(talk) 07:26, 5 March 2007 (UTC) -- update: maybe this [5] is better. Jim Butler(talk) 21:44, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This edit to the lead is excellent. Agree with removing redundancy, and much better way to use the UK Skeptics and Quackwatch refs. thanks! Jim Butler(talk) 22:17, 6 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've done some pruning - most of them were pretty clear cut: If a site's in German, it's not much good to the English wiki. Advertising of individual Homeopaths is right out. If there's half a dozen links to the same site, and a check of that site's front page for possible linking shows it full of misspellings and typos, this probably is link spam. So far, so easy. However, I wasn't sure about http://www.giriweb.com/ - I just couldn't find any particular reason to direct people here. It doesn't seem to have much useful information.

I'll do another run-through later. Adam Cuerden talk 15:14, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merge proposal

Would there be support for merging Clinical homeopathy, Complex homeopathy, and possibly small sections of Classical homeopathy - though I must admit that last article seems rather odd - it seems to say that it's very hard to define, then makes some bizarre assertions about non-classical homeopathy. I... have rather a lot of doubts about that article. Adam Cuerden talk 17:57, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I support this change. Clinical homeopathy, Complex homeopathy, and Classical homeopathy were created as POV forks some time ago to present homeopathic arguments without pesky scientific criticism. Though I don't think there is much to merge - most of it repeats what is said in the main article. Cheers, Skinwalker 18:08, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, once you cut the random praise of individual homeopaths from Clinical homeopathy and Complex homeopathy, and the assertion that words are commonly used to describe Complex homeopathy which give exactly 1 ghit if narrowed to English-only (that page), there's no material of note left. Kill 'em with fire and AfD nomination. Adam Cuerden talk 22:10, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Psora-Homeopathic, Veterinary homeopathy, Isopathy

Unlike the Homy articles, these are probably fine - though the first is pretty awfully titled. However, they do seem to duplicate information that should be in this article. Would a merge or delete be appropriate? Also Homeopath, which is... a rather odd list. Adam Cuerden talk 22:31, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, don't get me wrong: I'm not trying to eliminate everything Homeopathy, just the article's splintered rather a lot into pieces that may be a bit too narrow in focus to support a full article without repeating huge amounts of information, so it's probably sensible to have a look at what's out there and evaluate. Hence why I'm asking opinions first before even adding tags. Adam Cuerden talk 08:09, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Homeopathy and vaccination

I hate to be a bother again, but it does strike me that there must be a bit more criticism out there of the rejection of vaccination, which the current section ratherpussyfoots around. (and if they don't generally reject vaccination, we should say that.) Adam Cuerden talk 08:25, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Homeopathy and Malaria

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2006/07/one_more_reason_homeopathy_is_not_harmle.php —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Adam Cuerden (talk • contribs) 15:34, 4 March 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Category:Pseudoscience?

Let's peer inside this can of worms. Should homeopathy, and its category, really be in category:pseudoscience? FWIW, I was a chemistry grad student when the Benveniste paper on basophil degranulation came out, and am not asking the question from ignorance. Check out principles 14-18 in the recent ArbCom case on pseudoscience. Under which class(es) listed in that decision does homeopathy fall, and how does WP:ATT come into play in terms of sourcing what scientific consensus is?

My take is that this is someplace in between psychanalysis and astrology. Obviously the theoretical foundation isn't scientific, but it's not clear that the efficacy question is entirely settled. If a significant plurality of scientists think the case isn't closed, maybe we ought to avoid categorizing the topic as PS. I don't see any undue weight problems in the article, but on WP, categorization does require a certain threshold.

I don't have strong feelings about this, and am not going to push the issue very hard. However, I'm not above starting a bold, revert, discuss cycle to jumpstart discussion, since interested editors don't always follow talk pages. Editors who do strongly believe we should keep the category may want to reflect on what their burden is in terms of showing why it should stay (cf. my comments above).

And let's try to avoid ad hominem argumentation against editors who dare to ask such questions. User:Gleng's page has some relevant thoughts along those lines. Obviously, I'm not as smart as Gleng since I occasionally return to the fray.  ;-) ... best regards, Jim Butler(talk) 09:41, 6 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Pseudoscience is entirely the correct classification. The question of efficacy has been resolved, homeopathy is indistinguishable from placebo. The non-scientific to anti-scientific methods of practice, along with appeals to quantum mysticism and vitalism can only be called pseudoscientific. Jefffire 17:47, 6 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
On what source(s) do you base your statement that the question of efficacy has been resolved? Pubmed appears to show some signs of discussion of the issue. thx, Jim Butler(talk) 21:19, 6 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I base my opinion on the consensus opinion of the scientific community as I find it in my experience as a scientist. If there was a serious scientific opinion that the subject had validity then there would be a wealth of rigorous articles in serious journals. Jefffire 16:25, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Jefffire, if your sampling and conclusions are accurate, then surely per WP:ATT it should be possible to support them with a reliable source from some scientific body or other? Pls see my comments below to JoshuaZ along those lines. thx, Jim Butler(talk) 07:04, 9 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The weight of best and most authoritative studies clearly indicate that the subject is bunk (cited in article). Unless serious new studies arise to challenge that then my position on this matter remains static. Jefffire 10:10, 11 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You still haven't answered my question below on sourcing, but thanks again for stating your opinion. Truzzi on burden of proof (the highlighted footnote and the one that follows) is good reading. cheers, Jim Butler(talk) 22:31, 11 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have stated my views on the scientific consensus and weight of evidence. I consider this matter closed. Jefffire 14:56, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Understood, but how to frame such issues is not yet settled on WP. I do understand your point about lack of "serious" studies. However, some editors might not consider <ref>Jefffire's survey of his colleagues and the literature</ref> to be a very "serious" reference, either. You may wish to look at Talk:List_of_pseudosciences_and_pseudoscientific_concepts/Draft, where two sections are proposed based on strength of source (and homeopathy is mentioned under "Anthroposophical Medicine" in the second). cheers, Jim Butler(talk) 15:20, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Unless serious scientific evidence for the validity of the subject develops then the status quo regarding categorisation will remain, till then the scientific evidence and scientific consensus clearly indicated the subject as pseudoscientific, as referenced in the article. Jefffire 15:57, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
A field of study isn't categorized as pseudoscience on account of there not being scientific evidence for its propositions; it's categorized as pseudoscience because it doesn't attempt to validate its findings through the scientific method. By this standard, homeopathy clearly is not pseudoscientific, as it uses scientific methods to test its remedies. The argument isn't whether the methods are sound, it's over what the methods show. --Leifern 16:22, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
FWIW, the references in the article calling homeopathy pseudoscientific are from UK Skeptics, NCAHF and Robert Todd Carroll. thx, Jim Butler(talk) 17:22, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Quoting from the ArbCom decision "Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience." JoshuaZ 18:07, 6 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I was referring to that decision when I suggested homeopathy was somewhere between astrology and psychoanalysis. It also says: "Theories which have a substantial following, such as psychoanalysis, but which some critics allege to be pseudoscience, may contain information to that effect, but generally should not be so characterized."
What do you think is an appropriate source for what is "generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community"? Since homeopathy is pretty well known, I'd think some scientific bodies should have stuck a fork in it, as they have with ID. I think that WP categorization also partly depends on how many scientists think the jury is still out (i.e., do they constitute a "significant minority" in WP jargon; clearly, for astrology, it's a "tiny minority" per obvious lack of peer-reviewed discussion). thx, Jim Butler(talk) 21:56, 6 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Homeopathic repertory

I've proposed this for deletion as, frankly, it seems to be full of lies, though I doubt they're intentional ones. It talks at length about books being highly important in the modern day that nonetheless are almost unknown to Google. Adam Cuerden talk 11:57, 7 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Also List of important homeopaths, Homeopath, Drug dynamization, John Henry Clarke, and Materia Medica Pura. Please tell me if I'm going too far. Adam Cuerden talk 13:28, 7 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You're going too far. Even astrology has lots of articles (and series boxes) that are retained simply for historical interest. Same principle should apply here, even if there were no clinical or research interest in the topic today. WP is not paper. Appreciate the collaborative spirit of your asking, btw. best regards, Jim Butler(talk) 18:58, 7 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Right-o. I'll stop at this point, though I do think that, at the least, the sub articles need a lot of improvement. Adam Cuerden talk 19:44, 7 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! Certainly agree re their needing improvement (would tend to favor merging over too much deleting or pruning unless stuff is flagrantly noncompliant; better perhaps to leave some sort of scaffolding that others might add to later). cheers, Jim Butler(talk) 01:13, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

George Vithoulkas

[Moved to Archive, this page is not a venue for attacking editors, and the discussion does not appear to be about improving this article. Guettarda 16:16, 17 March 2007 (UTC)][reply]

I just wanted to note that the Vithoulkas article has again been nominated for deletion. Apparently having your books translated into twenty languages, 100,000 hits on Google, hundreds of citations in books from mainstream publishers by other authors and in journal articles, winning international acclaim and awards, sold out speaking tours around the world, etc etc is no longer enough to establish notability. I'm just about done with Wikipedia. It was fun while it lasted. --Lee Hunter 00:08, 22 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Edits

I've removed one section that was basically tracking membership in one British Homeopathic orginisation and claiming its rise followed the rise of Homeopathy in Britain, despite it starting in 1950. Particularly odd as it was supposedly a section on the whole world. The section on "Popularity of Homeopathy" had cites from over a decade ago being used to talk about Homeopathy's current growth rates - I've not deleted that - maybe it should be - but I rewrote the sentence to make it clear exactly when that growth was mentioned. The section on the NCCAM was cherrypicking a bit, added the rest in. Admittedly, you could probably get more positive statements from the NHS reference than are in there, but all the positive statements are prefixed with "Homeopaths claim that..." "According to homeopaths...." and such like, so... well, they seem to be trying to distance themselves from the homeopathic claims, while reporting them - it's a "Health Encyclopedia" entry, ye see... I'm not sure. Add in more if you think it justified, but... Adam Cuerden talk 15:23, 19 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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