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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Gerda Arendt (talk | contribs) at 16:46, 5 March 2024 (→List of works in the infobox: "to understand the sentence"). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Infobox

Why do some composer don't have any infobox. 50.101.226.79 (talk) 22:20, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Wikiproject Composers takes the view that infoboxes are seldom useful and the use of one should firstly establish consensus on the talk page. Should you wish to add one, start a discussion here. For more details and further links, see WikiProject page. Drumncars1996 (talk) 12:09, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for providing this useful link to the project. Cheers! Qflib, aka KeeYou Flib (talk) 16:27, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox consensus (or lack thereof)

@Nikkimaria:, I’ve searched both talk archives and it comes up exactly once, citing “This issue already has a considerable history on this talk page.” I don’t need to explain why that’s patently untrue. And I also am done dignifying an ancient decree made by a single WikiProject, unilaterally, that “their” articles shalt not have infoboxes unless you’re willing to cut through a Gordian Knot of red tape (also unilaterally installed). Dronebogus (talk) 04:42, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The quote you provide is specifically with regards to the issue of nationality. As to unilaterally, not sure how a unilateral action of your own would be more acceptable? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:48, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That’s beside the point. An out of process, outdated, ownership-based, insider-based consensus to implement across an entire topic area a de facto policy requiring RFCs for every infobox has exactly as much weight as my personal opinion (next to none). Dronebogus (talk) 04:55, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Which brings me back to my question: if somehow the consensus of the group has the exact same weight as your individual opinion, why should yours prevail? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:10, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You know, Nikkimaria, that Dronebogus is not alone with the criticism of the 2010 restriction. Dronebogus, how about asking project composers if there is still consensus to keep classical composers free from infoboxes? Nikkimaria and I should not do that, having been parties to the 2013 arbcase, but you look independent enough to begin a general RfC. I believe that composers are also persons, and feel that the majority of the community thinks the same, - just look at the Mozart discussion which was clear not only by number of comments but also quality of arguments (look for Voceditenore). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:40, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I’m strongly considering it Dronebogus (talk) 08:26, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
DYK that Clara Schumann has an infobox since 2012? ... that a discussion for Stoepel ended in favour of an infobox in 2013? ... that Brian Boulton came up with a compromise idea (for Percy Grainger) right after the infoboxes case, almost 10 years ago? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:41, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Recent edits (November 2023)

Baptizedsaint, will you please stop edit warring some bizarre and terrible changes, including deleting relevant and sourced information, and DISCUSS on this page. You are on the precipice of being reported for disruptive behaviour, as I am sure your talk page would have warned you, so unless you want that, I suggest you stop and talk. - SchroCat (talk) 10:55, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with SchroCat that these edits are unhelpful, edit warring, and Baptizedsaint should engage talk and gain consensus for their edits (but SC, please change the section heading, as somewhere some guideline tells us to avoid personalizing in section headings ... I use something generic like "Recent edits"). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:11, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Quite right - forgot about that one. - SchroCat (talk) 13:17, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
They are clearly a troll. Assuming good faith can only go so far. Just have an admin block them and move on. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 13:24, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes to that. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:27, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I also suggest that if Bs persists, and these edits have to be brought to ANI, then a CU may recognize a pattern. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:29, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Blocked. 'Nuff of that. Agree that AGF only goes so far. Antandrus (talk) 15:32, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you ! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:36, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

RFC: Should there be an infobox in the Antonio Vivaldi article?

SUPPORT INFOBOX
The consensus is that an infobox should be included in this article. The main opposing argument was that an infobox would be redundant, but the general consensus here is that it would be desirable to present basic key information in an infobox. Dantus21 (talk) 23:28, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

There's been a longstanding controversy on this page on whether an infobox should be included. Some state it would improve the understanding of readers.

Others state that including an infobox for Antonio Vivaldi would simplify a complex, long life. KlayCax (talk) 05:27, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I support it for basically the same reason MaximusEditor does, however I'd like to note that Ssilver's second point doesn't make sense. Not all readers get here through the Google Knowledge Graph, and presuming they do is inaccurate. Two, and also importantly, yes, it might be redundant. Wikipedia is redundant. All the information you find on Wikipedia is findable somewhere else. So why does it exist? Because it gathers information. The infobox would coalesce important information into something easily notable at the start of the article. (Sorry if this isn't properly formatted or anything, this is my first RFC.) 71.112.180.130 (talk) 15:55, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose While a couple of basic points could be captured in an IB, they are already present in the opening sentence, which makes the repetition more pointless than usual. The opening paragraph does a better job at explaining why he was important and a key figure in music, while an IB—in Vivaldi's case—will not provide readers with much in the way of clarity outside the opening sentence.
    And to the closing admin, a reminder of the ArbCom restrictions on decisions in IB matters WP:ARBINFOBOX2 states that

    All editors are reminded to ... not turn discussions about a single article's infobox into a discussion about infoboxes in general.

    I will also note Ritchie333's of a different RFC opened by the same editor three minutes before this RFC was opened. For Pound, RFCBEFORE was not followed, and as the OP has made no attempt to discuss the matter on this page before opening this RFC, neither RFCBEFORE nor RFCOPEN has been followed. - SchroCat (talk) 16:16, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Apart from your opening paragraph, your arguments is built of red herrings to get us caught up in semantics instead of the root of the issue here, which is deciding whether or not an IB improves the article.
    As for your opening paragraph, of course the IB would be repetitive to the lead text. That's the policy IBs are built on. See Nemov's quotation of the policy above. Pistongrinder (talk) 08:35, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    There’s no red herrings or semantics to get caught up in, so please don’t try to misrepresent my comment. As to your comment on my first paragraph point, you have misunderstood my meaning, for which I’m sorry, but if you re-read, you’ll see I refer to repeating info from the opening sentence, which is the part that makes it superfluous and unhelpful. If the identical pertinent information in the horizontal is repeated in the vertical, there is no help for the reader: it helps them not one iota. Again, no-one has shown how or why repeating factoids will improve this article, which is what the discussion is supposed to achieve. If you want to overturn the long-standing consensus on this article, you have to show how and why, not just vote on an IDONTLIKEIT basis. Please feel free to add some rationale about this article to your vote. Given the OP has declined to suggest any fields to include, it’s not clear what people are actually voting for here. - SchroCat (talk) 06:53, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Then how do infoboxes help at all, across the whole encyclopedia? Why is this such an issue for composers and almost nothing else? ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 13:23, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    This is tangential to the RFC, which is solely about this article. I’ll point out that it’s not just an issue with composers: it’s true of many in the liberal arts, which is why several actors also don’t have them. I’d rather not get into the rest in this thread, but IBs work brilliantly for some types of individuals, but not others. If all they do is parrot the key points in the opening sentence and are padded with trivial factoids (which may be the case here, but the OP hasn’t bothered to suggest what fields and why), then the use for readers is zero. - SchroCat (talk) 21:48, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: infoboxes summarize the article and provide key links and points for the reader. Why would we not want to include one? Cremastra (talk) 22:35, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: Yes, an Infobox would help readers quickly find key information about this famous composer. After considering the arguments on both sides of the issue, I simply don't see the negative side of adding one on this article. I believe it would improve the article. Some of everything (talk) 18:14, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support for reasons stated above. IBs are designed to support, not supplant the accompanying article text. This article specifically would benefit from the clarity infoboxes offer, and I don't see a valuable argument to the contrary. Pistongrinder (talk) 08:37, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • (Summoned from YapperBot) I am personally a proponent of infoboxes. If Wikipedia is to be written for the widest audience possible conveying information, there should be no issue with repeating information in a graphical form which our readers are quite frankly used to (based on the numerous amount of infoboxes). My opinion is that all articles should have some form of graphical assistance; if we're discouraging Walls of Text from appearing on ANI, why encourage them here? If you don't want to read on , SUPPORT infobox.
What I think is often overlooked is the value of information often regarded as trivial when used in our daily society. All information which complies with policy is at least valuable to varying levels, and whether our society should place so much value on these pieces of information is not for WP to decide (see WP:Righting great wrongs). The truth of the matter is that we as a society actively do put emphasis on the information IBs tend to inform us on. Ssilvers, who I previously debated on infoboxes with regard to the Maddie and Mackenzie Ziegler articles, often states that they "misleadingly emphasize less important factoids, stripped of context and lacking nuance" – this seems like near-textbook RGW, something that while I would more than welcome a cultural shifting movement on, is not for WP to do itself. WP:WWIN seems to back me up on this – per WP:NOTADVOCACY and further in WP:POINT, we shouldn't be using Wikipedia to illustrate a point, especially for a neutrally-worded project reflective on human sentiment. IB's tend to reflect humanity's intention a preferred method of graphical summary – if Google's knowledge panels are ubiquitous, it's not too far of an assumption that Wikipedia readers would benefit.
Specific to this article, Vivaldi's inclusion of an infobox would enable quicker and more efficient access to birthday, birthplace, notable works, death place, death day, resting place, relatives, and other points which we may think are useful. They shouldn't have to read through the entire article just to find out where his grave is (again – WP:POINT). InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 19:26, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

List of works in the infobox

The list of works in the infobox was reverted, twice, with no other explanation than MOS:FORCELINK. However, per Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Infoboxes#MOS:FORCELINK, that guidelines does not apply to infoboxes (and navboxes, and "see also" sections). Please restore the standard link from a composer's biography to the same person's works, which is a convenience for readers. These works are part of the biography in case of less prolific creators, - a prominent link helps when they need to be split. -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:22, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's not a valid consensus - it's two people with an interest in IBs deciding it's OK. Does the guideline give exemptions for IBs to allow it to breach FORCELINK? No. Does the use here breach part of the reason given in FORCELINK? Yes. Trying to ignore the guidelines for no reason is not constructive. - SchroCat (talk) 16:26, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The user who explained, User:BilledMammal, has not shown up in any discussion, afaik. What in their explanation did you not understand? - I read "do not force a reader to use that link to understand the sentence", and I understand that it applies only to sentences, which means for prose.--Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:45, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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