Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football

Not to be confused with Wikipedia talk:WikiProject American football, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Australian rules football, or Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Canadian football.

Footballers moving clubs during tournaments

For players who move clubs during a tournament year eg Mbappe this summer. How do we approach this? As it doesn't seem right to say "he won the Euros while playing for Madrid" when he's never played a game for them. This is just a hypothetical re Mbappe but their are many players who this senario would apply to and was wondering if there are any rule as to how to approach this when editing. Mn1548 (talk) 17:55, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Who will he be contracted to if/when he wins the tournament...? GiantSnowman 18:02, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

That's a seemingly logical answer but causes inconsistencies with players who transfer mid tournament. Eg Ona Batlle being listed as a United player in the list of 2023 World Cup Squads but not being listed as a player who won the World Cup while at the club on their statistics page. Personally, I think the club where the player played their last competitive game should be used in all contexts as its more consistent and provides more useful information. Mn1548 (talk) 19:19, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

No, it doesn't. The club contracted at the date of the final will not change. GiantSnowman 20:11, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

The majority of contract end on 30 June and start of 1 July, the majority of competitions rune mid June to mid July. Mn1548 (talk) 14:04, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

You are clearly not understanding what I am saying. What club will they be contracted with when the tournament finishes? GiantSnowman 16:18, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Why do you have to mention his club? Seasider53 (talk) 18:09, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

You don't, in prose, but there are a number of instances where that is needed. Mn1548 (talk) 19:11, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

If you look at the squads page lede, you'll see it says quite clearly The club listed is the club for which the player last played a competitive match prior to the tournament. :) --SuperJew (talk) 18:34, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I can see it sats that there but is that true for all squad tables for all tournaments ie is there a standard on Wikipedia for it? And if so, is that standard true for outside of squad table eg "List of [Team] records and statistics". Mn1548 (talk) 19:10, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

hes a psg player for the first half and then madrid for the second half (as per his contrat starting on july 1). in regards to "last team tehy played for", what if he breaks his leg and then get called up a year later - do you still list as psg cuz he didnt play for madrid yet?Muur (talk) 20:35, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I remember this issue coming up before when someone kept changing Dommarumma's club to Milan on the Italy roster after he moved to PSG because he hadn't played since then. But it was like October and I feel like the consensus was to change it to his new club on the roster page. RedPatch (talk) 23:27, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I would say the tournament squads page, use the team at the beginning of the tournament, so PSG. The actual France squad can change to Madrid on 1 July as that is a continuously evolving page which is kept up to date. RedPatch (talk) 01:02, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Plus we can always add a note indicating if a player has joined a new club during the course of the tournament, don't really see an issue with that. Jay eyem (talk) 04:05, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Also agreed Mn1548 (talk) 14:07, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Agreed Mn1548 (talk) 14:06, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Think there is a difference between not playing because of injury, and no playing because every game possible to play is in the future. Mn1548 (talk) 14:06, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

A similar question

Hi all, I have a similar question to the topic above. I'm updating list of Burnley F.C. internationals and Burnley's season is over (luckily). Jóhann Berg Guðmundsson left the club as a free agent, although his contract only runs out on 30 June. He has been called up by Iceland who play two matches before his contract runs out. The club has not included him in the overview of players who received call-ups. If Guðmundsson plays, would you include these caps in the list or not? Eem dik doun in toene (talk) 11:58, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes. He's still under contract till 30 June, so if the appearances come on or before that date, they're the appearances of a Burnley player. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 13:14, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, plus this instance eludes to the point I was making that he's been called up to international duty based of his performances at Burnley NOT as a player who is currently a free agent. Mn1548 (talk) 14:10, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

2023–24 UEFA Champions League

Hello. Can someone explain (better than me) to user AutisticAndrew that the prose practice below the image in the infobox should be "Wembley Stadium in London hosted the final"? See talk page and history page, moreover, see problem ongoing here Island92 (talk) 15:55, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

User:Khoa41860 (talk)

I would like to draw attention to the user Khoa41860 and his contributions , who is making false claims in the edit summaries (with "update formatting") to make significant changes to sport and football articles. This behavior is repetitive and even ignores, after some time hast passed, closed discussions, if no consensus has been reached in his favor.(example)

I have revised his last edits, which wanted to add the Czechoslovakian records at the FIFA World Cup to Slovakia, here also with false claims in the edit summaries,.Diff example. I also warned him on his talk page about this behaviour, but he deleted it so that no one else would notice that he does repetitive disruptive edits under false pretenses in the edit summary. (Diff: deletion of the warning) Miria~01 (talk) 18:52, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

I see a lot of past warnings on their talk page. I would hope that it is merely incompetence rather than insolence, but regardless of the explanation it may be time to report this user to the Administrator's noticeboard. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 02:40, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Is an Elo ratings, 11v11, and rsssf source more important than a FIFA´s source???

Hello everybody! I am quite new in the english wikipedia. The topic I´m adding is related to the count of matches in the Argentina-Brazil football rivalry article and all the related articles derived: Argentina national football team results (1920–1939), Argentina national football team results (1940–1959), Argentina national football team results (1960–1979), also in Argentina national football team results (unofficial matches), in Brazil national football team results (unofficial matches) and in Brazil national football team records and statistics.

I want you to tell me, please, the "consideration" of the sources here. If in the Wikiprojet Football is more valuable or "important" a source of Elo Ratings [1] [2] or 11v11 [3] [4] or Rsssf.com [5] that show a list of matches, or a source of FIFA that also shows the list of matches FIFA official´s page (archive). Argentina vs. Brazil head to head. February 2013. FIFA´s source is from Feb. 2013. After that date, they played 10 times, with 4 wins for Argentina, 4 wins for Brazil, and 2 ties. To see the complete list of matches according to this FIFA´s source, please click in "Advanced search", and then in "Show all matches".

I only put FIFA´s source to be neutral, but there are many others sources with the complete list of matches of serious organisations or sites that differ with Elo Ratings, 11v11 and Rsssf. For example, AFA (Argentine Football Association) [6], El Gráfico [7] and many others that agree with FIFA´s source...

My opinion is that the most important and official source in football that we can have is FIFA... No other site or association can be above FIFA. I think that any source by any web or page or organisation CAN´T be above a FIFA´s official source, because FIFA means official in the world of football, and FIFA is the major world football official organization. For me, I repeat, a single FIFA source "kills" any other source in football.

So, for you and the members of the WP Football: is an Elo ratings, 11v11, and rsssf source more important than a FIFA´s source???

Can you participate in the talk page of the article Argentina-Brazil football rivalry? [8] Thanks! Regards, Raúl Quintana Tarufetti (talk) 22:55, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

wouldnt fifa be considered a primary source meaning secondary sources are preferred?Muur (talk) 04:26, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

For questions of most notability, statistics compiled by an authoritative agency, should be more preferred than secondary sources, if no analysis or interpretation of the statistics is involved in a Wikipedia article. However, it is only my opinion and not a Wikipedia guideline. Miria~01 (talk) 10:26, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Realistically, we care a lot more (in general) about what secondary sources say about a subject. When this is about statistics, there's a bit of confusion.

I see this a lot, because there's two ways to look at it. If the "official" primary source says something, arguably it is always correct, even if it's wrong, because they get to choose what the "official" statistics are. However, on the flip side, if multiple other sources agree that it isn't the same, then arguably we should state that as the correct information, as it comes from reliable secondary sources.

The fix? Simply state both. If it all possible, leave a result in prose, but then have a note stating which sources back up that result. There's obviously some issues there, but in general we can't just take one organisations opinion on the matter.

A good example of this being done in practice is pro wrestling, where organisations can state dates of when championships are won/lost, but because they happen on tape delay, their numbers and the real-world examples are wildly different. In articles, we publish both pieces of information, and use notes to explain why. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:33, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

To clarify the above: a subject is a primary source when it is closely or immediately involved, and all sources are primary sources for something. So for instance a primary source for a single football game is likely going to be generated by Players, Managers, Referees, Clubs, Pundits, Commentators, Fans and their immediate output (interviews, opinions) a lot of which will fall into SelfPub, or otherwise be considered unreliable for wikipedia (i.e. youtube, or lacking due weight etc), or in the case of things like Team Sheets, Match Reports, Referee Reports, ticket stubs etc are official documents and de facto always primary sources. Secondary sources will be Match Reports, News Reports, and so on which may include or re-contextualise Players, Managers, Referees, Clubs, Pundits, Commentators, Fans and their immediate output. They may differ in things like the time a goal was scored, how many shots were made, successful passes, etc or have other criteria that they use others don't which is what is what segregates them from being a pure primary source.

Who contextualises, and in what context, can also change the source from secondary to primary however. So FIFA talking about the results of a football game are not a Primary source, they are secondary. They are reporting, like any other news site, the outcomes, or in this case a list of games. However, if FIFA in discussing the football game were to talk about themselves, their policies and so on, then they would cross that line back into being a Primary Source. There are also wrinkles such as FIFA not recognising games that they did not sanction etc which is reliance on them alone can sometimes be fraught with issues. Similarly if a football club, say Liverpool, publishes post match review and such - there's nothing inherently unreliable for basic observable facts - but any discussion of the club, opinions on referees, controversy etc are obviously way more contextually primary than secondary. However in most cases there is usually a secondary sources available to corroborate or explain any issues (as LV says above) or be more suitable sources for any other number of reasons.

This is why, typically, for statistics - FIFA and club sites are generally reliable sources, but the context needs to be understood of what they may be describing or presenting to decide if it is Primary or Secondary. Koncorde (talk) 13:26, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

• Adding context: the discussion arose because according to some sources in Spanish and a FIFA report, some matches between Brazil and Argentina were not accounted as a Full A (without further details as to why). In the talk page. The user Raúl Quintana Tarufetti claimed that these matches were disputed the state teams of Minas Gerais and Guanabara (it seems strange, but in fact these teams sometimes played at international level in the 1960s/1970s, just like the Basque Country and Catalonia today). I showed that it didn't make sense, since there are even photographic records that the Brazil national team was officially represented (see [9] [10]), and he somehow believes that this is a partial view that favors the Brazil team. However, all other secondary sources (World Elo, RSSSF and 11v11) have match information as normally Full A, being counted even on the Argentine side (see Argentina national football team results (1960–1979) as example). Otherwise, he simply forces WP:POV ignoring the entire match list (which has more than 190 sources). Svartner (talk) 23:58, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

• In 1968, a group of athletes from Minas Gerais clubs represented the Brazilian team in a friendly match in Belo Horizonte. 50 years ago, players from América, Atlético and Cruzeiro were together, on the same side, wearing the Brazilian team's shirt, at Mineirão. On August 11, 1968, the Minas Gerais team represented Brazil, which beat Argentina 3-2, in a friendly. [11] regarding the photographics, that they played in the Brazilian shirt. Nevertheless, I would go by the FIFA source and then not count it as an official game between two national teams. However, it would probably be best to have two versions of the tables next to each other, as it is now. Miria~01 (talk) 00:20, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

  This happened countless times. For example, in the 1975 Copa América, the Brazil national team was also represented by players from Minas Gerais (see). And the Minas Gerais state team always played with its own shirt, by FMF. (see). Svartner (talk) 00:33, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

False. In this list, there are players from Sao Paulo (Sao Paulo), Guaraní Campinas (Sao Paulo), Palmeiras (Sao Paulo), Flamengo (Rio de Janeiro), Vasco (Río de Janeiro), América (Río de Janeiro). Not a Minas Gerais team. --Raúl Quintana Tarufetti (talk) 22:46, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Also, as has been pointed out by Svartner, FIFA themselves don't always agree with their own tables and there are multiple sources standing by that total. Trying to represent every possible sources view of what is and isn't counted and including several different counts of games is unworkable and unencyclopedic, and has made the article a mess of disclaimers and notes. Koncorde (talk) 13:11, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Svartner: Answering first to you, I have to say that the same sources you use to conunt the 4 matches that Brazil won, they count the 2 Argentina´s victories (1920 and 1956) too: See Elo Ratings: Argentina See Elo Ratings Brazil See Rsssf.com... And there is more: this source of Rsssf says in the "notes" that there are sources that claim that the 1956, and the two 1968 games were played by State Selections, NOT only the 1956 match. Rsssf.com ARGENTINA NATIONAL TEAM ARCHIVE Notes 21, 23 and 24.. But moreover, there is another source of Rsssf.com (It sounds to you...) I put of the List of UNOFFICIAL Argentina´s matches, that says clarely the two 1968 games were unofficial because they were played vs a Guanabara State and a Minas Gerais State selections Argentina National Team - Unofficial Matches - Match Details 1968: Río de Janeiro Combined and Minas Gerais Combined.

So, as everybody can see, for Svartner these sources are ok by the controversial matches won by Brazil. But when the same sources that say Argentina´s 1920 and 1956 matches (won by Argentina) may count, they are not ok... Very strange... And moreover, as I demonstrated above, Rsssf.com says in another source that the 1956 and 1968 matches are listed in the Argentina National Team - Unofficial Matches [12]. Veeeeery confused... What Rsssf.com´s source do we belive???

And the most strange thing is that the november´s 2023 FIFA´s source in spanish says they are tied 42 vs 42 [13] and the november´s 2023 FIFA´s source in english says that is 43 vs 41 in favour of Brazil [14]. None of them has the complete list of matches as it had the 2013 FIFA´s source, that says Argentina leads by one match [15]... What FIFA´s source do we belive??? I think that the correct "solution" is what I did in the article, to put the 3 versions of things. Before I participated, it only was the "Brazilian version", and it was wrong, it was not neutral and encyclopedic. Now, there are the 3 versions with sources because FIFA doesn't even agree itself... Said that, I want to agree with you, Miria~01 and Lee Vilenski. This is the correct way (I think) to face this article for me.

And Koncorde: doy you want more than 20 sources that stands Argentina is 1 match above, or they are tied in 42? I can bring you 50 if you want... No way: meanwhile FIFA do not make and official report with the list of matches recognised by the association (the major and official in the world of football, not a few historians of Elo Ratings or Rsssf, that as you see they don´t agree each other themselves either) we should let the article as it is right now, with the 3 versions of the count. It has a lot of notes? Yes, ok, not a problem. They show the clear discrepances... Regards, --Raúl Quintana Tarufetti (talk) 22:46, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

We should accurately represent what the reliable sources state. If you have 50 reliable sources for a single outcome - please present it. That's it. However what you have done is unfortunately a lot of WP:OR and WP:SYNTH and invites the reader to infer an outcome from conflicting sources. Notes to explain discrepancies are one thing, notes repeated 4 or 5 times explaining marginal differences, especially mutually exclusive differences between some sources that are themselves incomplete, is hugely problematic as both a readability challenge and a question of neutrality - expressions such as "official", "dispute", "controversial" are not included in the sources that you ascribe them to. Instead there are, largely, either omissions and / or notes aside from the Goleamos source.

There are also significant issue in how certain things are expressed at the moment as it's pieced together, by you, from numerous sources. Statements like "many sources say it was not a “Class A match” because it was played with 8 players each", the fact it was played with reduced players is acceptable as mentioned in the DW source - but there's no evidence of "many sources", nor any description that matches any expression of "Class A match". Similarly the sentence "many sources say it was not a “Class A match” because Argentina didn´t play with its “A” team" is not included in 3/4 articles sourced. Goleamos[16] appears to be the only source for the claims, and Goleamos has unclear criteria as a reliable source.

For simplicity and clarity, as the issue is only between friendly matches there is really no reason to duplicate the counts for all matches repeatedly as an easier way of presenting alternative counts, along with cutting out 99% of the duplication and re-duplication of sources. Koncorde (talk) 00:19, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

But I do not disregard the 1920 match (even if it does not appear in some official listings). Only the 1956 match, because there are sources that in this case confirm that it was the Guanabara/Rio de Janeiro state team (see [17] [18]). Svartner (talk) 03:26, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

So, Koncorde, look the "confusion" of Rsssf.com. Look the confusion of FIFA itself... There are 3 FIFA´s sources: one says 42vs42 another says BRA 43vs41 and one from 2013 says ARG leads 40vs39. That source has the complete list of matches (the others 2 no), and I presented several times: it doesn´t count the 1920, 1922, 1923, 1956 and 1968 matches; you can see it by yourself! Moreover, there is the AFA´s sources, the El Gráfico´s source (the 1919 magazine, one of the most important in Latin America), the TyC Sports source, the Goleamos source, the Promiedos source (that counts 42 vs 42 matches, coinciding with FIFA´s source in spanish from November 2023)... But there are more sources:

ARG. would lead by one match:

• TNT Sports: [19]

• Diario Olé newspaper (after 1-0 ARG win in november 2023): [20]

• Another from Olé after the last match won by ARG:: [21]

• Another from Olé before the last match won by ARG: [22]

• Onefootball.com (from november 2019. After that, Argentina won 2 matches, and they tied 1): [23]

• Diario Clarín newspaper (before the 1-0 ARG win in 2023 in Maracaná): [24]

• Another from Clarín, after the 1-0 match in Maracaná in nov. 2023: [25]

Would be tied in 42

• La Nación newspaper (after 1-0 ARG win in november 2023, it says they are tied in 42): [26]

• Diario AS from Spain (before the 1-0 ARG last win in Maracaná): [27]

• Sporting News (after 1-0 ARG win in november 2023): [28]

• Diario Perfil newspaper (before the 1-0 ARG last win in Maracaná): [29]

And I can follow... No way the article shouldn´t show only one vision (brazilian one) beacuse is high demostrated there are LOT of sources that say another thing... What´s your solution, Koncorde? I repeat what I said: if there are misatakes of style (about wikipedia) or grammatical, please correct them! But the content and the 3 versions of the count is totally right, because it wasn´t neutral before my intervention here. The article only showed one version... --Raúl Quintana Tarufetti (talk) 00:51, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

All of these sources come up against the problem that was shown above in the 1968 matches, where, as I demonstrated, there are photographic records that it was the Brazil team that played. The reports replicate each other, based on the same source. Svartner (talk) 03:34, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Photographic records??? How you can prove this pics were from these 2 matches??? Please, do not complicate things with a so waek argument... There are plenty of sources, as I gave that do not count as official these matches against these state´s selections.

Another point that makes the complete confusion of these counts in Spanish quite evident. Following the logic, Brazil should then appear with 41 victories, not 42. Svartner (talk) 03:52, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

No, these serious sources that claim Brazil has 39 victories and Argentina 40 do not count (with good sense, as FIFA did in 2013 withe the complete list of matches, and El Gráfico with the complete list of matches, and AFA with the complete list of matches, that many of you do not want to see) the 1920, 1922, 1923, 1956, and 1968 games... The sources that gives 42 vs 42 (including one of FIFA of november 2023 [30]) do not count only the 1922 or 1923 match: one of these 2 matches are not counted as official. Promiedos.com for expample doesn´t count the 1922 game See the complete list of matches here. But, as we do not have the complete list of matches in the 2023 FIFA´s source we can´t be 100% sure what FIFA counted [31]. I think we are drowning in a glass of water... --Raúl Quintana Tarufetti (talk) 08:10, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Can you please stop claiming things like "that many of you do not want to see" - it is highly insulting to accuse people of ignoring a source. We are not. We can see clearly there are multiple sources with different totals. This is nothing new or novel on wikipedia or WP:Football. Koncorde (talk) 08:39, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Regarding the new sources; all these sources indicate is that Argentina FA has a preferred list which a group of these sources are using - this isn't creating clarity as to the reason why the AFA chooses to ignore them, nor does it confirm that they are in fact not recognised by FIFA (an incomplete archive view from 2013 is questionable at best). We should therefore correctly describe "many sources" as "Note: The Argentinian Football Association does not recognise 5 friendlies" and to continue to use the reliable sources that have been used on wikipedia for the main count until an authoritative source (i.e. FIFA) clarifies the final count of which matches are and are not included as none of the sources beyond 442 state anything to do with FIFA official recognition, and their comment is subjective in how it might be read ("In the general history, including friendlies and cups endorsed by FIFA"). Any attempt to define official / unofficial status of specific games where we ask users to look at conflicting sources that we have selected to demonstrate a specific outcome is itself WP:OR / SYNTH. Koncorde (talk) 08:39, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

First of all, Koncorde, the 2013 FIFA´s source says what it says and is the only source we have from FIFA (the major football association in this planet) that puts clarely the complete list of matches until Feb. 2013... And I do not see there the 1920, 1922, 1923, 1956 and the two 1968 games... Tell me if you find them there... You are confusing the talk, saying that. In the Notes, there must figure the 2013 FIFA´s source (as it figures with my editions, that are ultra correct) that FIFA at least until FEB. 2013 didn´t count those matches. We have the FIFA´s source whit the complete list of matches and you question it. It´s the upside down kingdom, my god...

Second. You are just interpreting things, you are the subjetive one, because you don´t have any proof to say what you said. AFA doesn´t "choose" anything to "ignore" those 6 matches as you are saying! AFA probably abides what FIFA said in 2013! So difficult to understand? The common sense says they were not First Class A matches, and it is explained in each note of the article that those 6 matches wouldn´t be Class A matches, and each source expliains why they are considered like this... 1920 because it was played 8 vs 8, 1922 because it was a Brazil B team (the same day the A team played the 1922 Copa América final), 1923 because it was an Argentina B team (the same day the A team played the 1923 Copa America final), 1956 because it was not Brazil A, it was a Guanabara State´s selection, 1968 (2 games) the same: it was not Brazil A, it was a Guanabara´s selection, and a Minas Gerais Selection... There are a LOT of sources presented here, there [32] and everywere [33]... But "casually", for the games won by Brazil many users use the Elo Ratings and the Rsssf.com sources that mention them as "official", but when the same sources of Elo Ratings and Rsssf.com mention the matches won by Argentina are counted, they say they are unofficial [34] and I can follow with diffs like that... Very very very strange behaviour...

Third: you do not have any proof to say the other media or sites uses the numbers of AFA to make their articles! Which proof do you have to claim that? As you saw, there are media that count 40 vs 39, and others count 42 vs 42...

And not only AFA doens´t count those matches: as you saw, Rsssf doesn´t count a few of this matches in one source and in another, counts a few and doesn´t count other games... Promiedos doesn´t count the 1922 match and counts the others, La Nacion, Diario AS, Sporting News and FIFA itself (in nov. 2023) counts 42 vs 42... With which criteria? We don´t know. Only Promiedos puts the full list of matches, excluding the 1922 game... So, in resume, not only AFA doesn´t count these 6 matches or a portion of these 6 matches! Only Elo Ratings counts all those 6 matches, and it´s clear that you and Svartner only want to use this source as principal, but not counting the 1920 and 1956 games... Very funny... No way! It´s a total confusion. So we must ask too: With which criteria Elo ratings counts them? As User:Stevie fae Scotland told me: "Elo often include unofficial matches" [35] We don´t know, because -as you see- there are many ways of couting... And the article, before my fair intervention counted only as Brazil and CBF counts (using Elo Ratings), and this was not neither neutral nor encyclopedic. --Raúl Quintana Tarufetti (talk) 14:30, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

In resume, I think the article Argentina-Brazil football rivalry like it is now is ok. It shows the 3 versions of counting and the notes enlightening for each controversial match. The problem now is how we can solve the related articles, as Brazil national football team records and statistics (wrong the head to head vs Argentina, at least we must include notes clarifying many things of these 6 matches and the count), Brazil national football team results (unofficial matches), Argentina national football team results (unofficial matches), Argentina national football team results (1920–1939) (1920, 1922, 1923 matches), and Argentina national football team results (1940–1959) (1956 match), Argentina national football team results (1960–1979) (two matches of 1968), Brazil national football team results (1914–1949), and Brazil national football team results (1950–1969). What would be a solution? We include all 6 matches but putting notes on each of them? Or we do not put any of them? --Raúl Quintana Tarufetti (talk) 18:47, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Again, the 1920 match was accounted for (just look at the copy of the match list I left in my sandbox), even if the RSSSF count does not include it (and that is the why the match is listed in Brazil national football team results (unofficial matches)), since it was clearly a match between Argentina and Brazil. The one from 1956 is not counted because this one has sources that it is not disputed by the Brazil team, by about Guanabara/Rio de Janeiro ([36]). I had even written an article on the Copa Raúl Colombo to avoid further doubts, maybe it would be better to restore it. Svartner (talk) 21:14, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Svartner: again: you are the one who is adding the 1920 match in the Brazil national football team results (unofficial matches) [37] [38] and you are the one who removed it from the Brazil national football team results (1914–1949) [39]. But here now you say it counts? Agree yourself, please... Intelectual honesty 1...

The 1956 match figures in rsssf.com and in Elo Ratings.com as "official". The same sources you use... The same... Rsssf.com [40] and Elo Ratings [41] and [42]. Intelectual honesty 2... You will tell me there is a note in the rsssf.com it says it was a Guanabara team. Right! I will tell you the same source says with a note that the two 1968 games were against a Ganabara Selection and a Minas Selection [43] (Notes 23 and 24). As you and Koncorde should know, even worse there is an Rsssf.com source that clarely puts these 2 friendlies in the List of Argentina National team UNOFFICIAL matches... Again... what do you see??? [44] Arg. Vs Rio de Janeiro Combined and Arg. vs Minas Gerais Select don´t you see???

Perhaps I´m crazy, but no, I´m sane and sober... As I told you a loooottt of times: you arrange things as it suits you, and this is

WP:POV. Fortunately this is not "Wikipedia Brazil", and the count of matches and head to head between Arg and Bra was corrected by me...--Raúl Quintana Tarufetti (talk) 23:56, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Raul, don't use bold text. Your arguments don't become any clearer when you make them, and you are not dealing with the issue by continually repeating information we have read already, and you have had this requested of you at the Admin noticeboard.

• "the 2013 FIFA´s source says what it says and is the only source we have from FIFA this isn't true, we have another source from FIFA stating the total is 110 matches that is subsequent to the 2013 stats total. We therefore have a discrepancy we cannot resolve with FIFA alone.
• "there must figure the 2013 FIFA´s source (as it figures with my editions, that are ultra correct) that FIFA at least until FEB. 2013 didn´t count those matches" being "correct" (in your opinion) is not the same as being verifiably supported by reliable sources. As you have conflicting totals from FIFA alone, never mind other sources, any conjecture about what FIFA did or didn't do to that date or any other is entirely your opinion.
• "We have the FIFA´s source whit the complete list of matches and you question it" except it isn't a complete list as it stopped in 2013, RSSSF sources are also incomplete etc and you yourself have introduced other sources that specifically disagree about which fixtures are specifically omitted by including multiple counts of matches.
• "AFA doesn´t "choose" anything to "ignore" those 6 matches as you are saying! AFA probably abides what FIFA said in 2013!" This is your opinion. We have no evidence from FIFA that this is the case, and the recent count of 110 refutes the claim. Therefore the AFA have their own count, and no explanation from them as to their reason. Taking reasons from other sites / sources to infer reasons is WP:SYNTH and WP:OR.
• "So difficult to understand? The common sense says they were not First Class A matches, and it is explained in each note of the article that those 6 matches wouldn´t be Class A matches, and each source expliains why they are considered like this... 1920 because it was played 8 vs 8, 1922 because it was a Brazil B team (the same day the A team played the 1922 Copa América final), 1923 because it was an Argentina B team (the same day the A team played the 1923 Copa America final), 1956 because it was not Brazil A, it was a Guanabara State´s selection, 1968 (2 games) the same: it was not Brazil A, it was a Guanabara´s selection, and a Minas Gerais Selection..." You are attempting to combine the notes from one site (RSSSF or Goleamos) with a list of fixtures from another site (again WP:SYNTH) AND you are expressing an outcome that those sites themselves do not express (again WP:OR). You need to understand those basic tenets of wikipedia.
• "you do not have any proof to say the other media or sites uses the numbers of AFA to make their articles" It is unlikely they are using FIFAs totals - because FIFA posted a total of 110 games, and their stats are not available online. There is nothing controversial in stating the AFA recognises a certain list of games, and that a group of articles also reflect the AFA list.
• "With which criteria? We don´t know." but you have already expressed a whole bunch of criteria about why you think FIFA didn't include certain matches and are trying to use other sources to explain possible logic. This is (again, again) WP:SYNTH and WP:OR.
• In resume, I think the article Argentina-Brazil football rivalry like it is now is ok. Absolutely not.

It's a mess of WP:SYNTH and WP:OR, poorly written and terribly structured. I haven't reverted out of politeness so far as I have tried to find alternative authoritative reliable sourcing for the match listings - but this is not endorsement of the content as presented. Koncorde (talk) 22:49, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

I will answer to you, Koncorde:

• this isn't true, we have another source from FIFA stating the total is 110 matches that is subsequent to the 2013 stats total. We therefore have a discrepancy we cannot resolve with FIFA alone. The only source of FIFA that shows the complete list of matches is this, the one from 2013. Give me another that shows the list of matches. Of course, as I said and I put in the article (I put the 3 versions, not as others did who only counted one version of the head to head) there are 3 (three) FIFA´s source that do not agree themselves: 2013 (ARG 1 match above, with the complete list of matches [45], 2023 in spanish (tied in 42 each) [46] and 2023 in english (BRA 2 matches above) [47]. Fortunately, I included the 3 sources ;-)
• being "correct" (in your opinion) is not the same as being verifiably supported by reliable sources. As you have conflicting totals from FIFA alone, never mind other sources, any conjecture about what FIFA did or didn't do to that date or any other is entirely your opinion. As I proved in this discussion, there are a lot of sources an verifiable (serious sources) that also counts as this source. El Gráfico and AFA (with the full list of matches). Do you knok that the AFA is the football association of the current FIFA´s World Champion? ;-) I saw you edited that in the article that Brazil has 6 World Cups, and I had to correct it... I assume it was a typing error of you... But, this is not the discussion. I accept all the sources that express the 3 versions of the list of match. I´m not blind, and meanwhile FIFA doesn´t clarify the head to head, the article must be as it is, with all the notes and the 3 versions of the count of matches.
• except it isn't a complete list as it stopped in 2013, RSSSF sources are also incomplete etc and you yourself have introduced other sources that specifically disagree about which fixtures are specifically omitted by including multiple counts of matches. I clarify in the "Notes". After that date, they played 10 times, wit 4 ARG wins, 4 BRA wins and 2 ties... It´s easy to prove! But as I said, I do not deny the other FIFA sources! What I object to is the way the article was before I came: with only Brazil´s point of view. As you can see, (I wish yo can) other user still ties to mix sources and take a part of the same sources he uses to "prove" something, but erasing parts of the same sources that say things he try to rule out. The 1920, 1956 and 1968 matches are the example. In this answer, I show the crux of the matter. This is WP:POV. Clarely. And you do not say anythng to him, Koncorde. It seems to be a war agaisnt me...
• This is your opinion. We have no evidence from FIFA that this is the case, and the recent count of 110 refutes the claim. Therefore the AFA have their own count, and no explanation from them as to their reason. Taking reasons from other sites / sources to infer reasons is WP:SYNTH and WP:OR. I said that because you said the other media took the AFA´s numbers, and that AFA "choose" the 2013 FIFA´s source to rule out a few matches... You do not a proof to assert that the other media (Clarín, Olé, TyC Sports, El Gráfico, and so) took the AFA´s numbers... So, it goes to you: taking reasons from other sites / sources to infer reasons is WP:SYNTH and WP:OR... ;-) We have what we have: a lot of different sources. Many of them say one thing, many of them another, and many of them another. The article is clear as it is. Don´t drown in a glass of water, please.
• You are attempting to combine the notes from one site (RSSSF or Goleamos) with a list of fixtures from another site (again WP:SYNTH) AND you are expressing an outcome that those sites themselves do not express (again WP:OR). You need to understand those basic tenets of wikipedia. I don´t attempt anything. I only show with sources each case of each match and why they are not considered A mathces according to a few sources: it is explained in each note of the article that those 6 matches wouldn´t be Class A matches, and each source expliains why they are considered like this... 1920 because it was played 8 vs 8, 1922 because it was a Brazil B team (the same day the A team played the 1922 Copa América final), 1923 because it was an Argentina B team (the same day the A team played the 1923 Copa America final), 1956 because it was not Brazil A, it was a Guanabara State´s selection, 1968 (2 games) the same: it was not Brazil A, it was a Guanabara´s selection, and a Minas Gerais Selection. Evrything figures in the sources. The one who makes WP:SYNTH is another, not me...
• It is unlikely they are using FIFAs totals - because FIFA posted a total of 110 games, and their stats are not available online. There is nothing controversial in stating the AFA recognises a certain list of games, and that a group of articles also reflect the AFA list. As I said, you don´t have any proof to say that. Any... So, it goes to you again: taking reasons from other sites / sources to infer reasons is WP:SYNTH and WP:OR... ;-)
• but you have already expressed a whole bunch of criteria about why you think FIFA didn't include certain matches and are trying to use other sources to explain possible logic. This is (again, again) WP:SYNTH and WP:OR. No, no, no. Do not confuse other users: a lot of sources I gave expressed about why a few matches do not count. I don´t kow if FIFA consider them, because in the source of 2013 do not consider 6 matches (you can see), in the 2023 source it considers 5 of the 6 controversial matches (42 vs 42), and in the 2023 source in english considers 43 vs 41 for Brazil.
• It is unlikely they are using FIFAs totals - because FIFA posted a total of 110 games, and their stats are not available online. There is nothing controversial in stating the AFA recognises a certain list of games, and that a group of articles also reflect the AFA list. Again. As I said, you don´t have any proof to say that. Any... So, it goes to you again: taking reasons from other sites / sources to infer reasons is WP:SYNTH and WP:OR... ;-) So, playing your "game" I can tell you that AFA could have taken the numbers according to the 2013 FIFA´s source... ;-) And perhaps, brazilian media count from a CBF source, I don´t know from where thay took their numbers. The knot of the matter is those 6 matches; friendlies with no importance from the stone age, comparing with the official mathces, where Argentina dominates ;-). FIFA itself doesn´t agree in 2023...
• it's a mess of WP:SYNTH and WP:OR, poorly written and terribly structured. I haven't reverted out of politeness so far as I have tried to find alternative authoritative reliable sourcing for the match listings - but this is not endorsement of the content as presented As I said several times: if there are grammathical mistakes, or style mistakes, please correct them! But the content, the 3 versions, the notes with sources about each controversial match must stay.

Raúl Quintana Tarufetti (talk) 01:20, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

"and you are the one who removed it from the Brazil national football team results (1914–1949)" - In fact, it was the opposite, and it happened in 2021, when the match lists were still being developed. That's why I say that your edits are disruptive, it's essential to understand how the project works before simply changing the entire scope of the content indiscriminately. Svartner (talk) 00:17, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Ok, I saw bad there, I apoligise. It was other user, not you. But you didn´t add it again later. For expalmple, betweem march and today, as we had this discussion. If I add would you keep it there? And another thing: about the 1920 match in the Brazil national football team results (unofficial matches) what would you tell us of this? [48] Raúl Quintana Tarufetti (talk) 01:28, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

• I don't completely understand what is going on here, but if the sources differ, we need to note that the sources differ and why. SportingFlyer T·C 01:30, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

  Hello, SportingFlyer! This is what I did in the article. It wasn´t neutral until my participation, and only showed one version of the facts. Thanks for participating. Raúl Quintana Tarufetti (talk) 04:38, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

@SportingFlyer: Nutshell: There are multiple sources, and someone is trying to use those multiple sources in a WP:OR / WP:SYNTH manner. I.e. FIFA provides a list in 2013, AFA provides a list until 2023, FIFA does new article which would refute both their original 2013 content and the AFA's, and those of multiple sources giving different Argentinian totals. Raul wants to use 2013 FIFA plus other articles plus incomplete list of games from RSSSF etc which includes some notes to provide multiple stat outputs and claim which are and aren't "official". Koncorde (talk) 21:59, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Hello everybody. Koncorde, Svartner: please, follow the discussion here [49] I found an official AFA´s document from 1968 that gives no room for discussion about these 2 games... I found digitized the 1968 AFA´s Memory and Balance.[50] It is on the internet, in the "Library of AFA". http://biblioteca.afa.org.ar/libros.html (Biblioteca AFA in spanish). There are many of them digitizeds, and I will continue searching. In the 1968´s book, you go to the page 32 and 33, and you will see the sumary of those 2 games. Not need to know spanish, are very clear the summaries. And as I told you lot of times, it was not Brazil national team... Those matches were played between Argentina and a Rio de Janeiro selection (August 7) and Argentina vs Minas Gerais Selection (August 11). Please, see here [51]. The summary says "COMBINADO RÍO DE JANEIRO VS. ARGENTINA" and "SELECCION MINAS GERAIS VS ARGENTINA".[52] As you can see, AFA always (alredy in 1968) counted them as unofficial matches, against state selections, not against Brazil. Now, we can discover (and not only "interpretate") why AFA do not count those matches as "Class A full international games": that´s because always considered them not against Brazil national team. As you can see in the source of the "Memory and Balance" of AFA, already in 1968 they were considered unofficial, and considered as 2 matches against 2 provincial rivals. Can you see Koncorde, why AFA "ignored" those 2 games?... Simple... I hope we can following unraveling the puzzle. Raúl Quintana Tarufetti (talk) 05:11, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

So, this explains why they are considered unofficial by the AFA, but the CBF considers them the main Brazil team, with the photographic records already presented above showing that they acted representing the CBD, the predecessor of the CBF, not the state federations. Svartner (talk) 22:17, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, for AFA they were always against 2 State Selections, not vs. Brazil´s national team. For CBF, they count as Brazil national team, although those matches were directed not by Joao Saldanha, the Brazil´s team trainer in 1968. Until FIFA do not clarify this situation with a new source I think we should keep the article as it is. The same for the 1956 match, and the 1920, 1922, and 1923 matches. Said that, what should we do in the artcles of Argentina´s historical official and unofficial results??? There, only there just for now, I think should be erased, because AFA do not consider them as official,and (as it was demonstrated) they never considered like this. In the rivalry´s article, I think they should stay as they are, with notes explaining each situation. And in the Brazil´s related articles (results official and unofficial matches) we should keep them (I think with notes explaining too, that AFA never considered as official games), until FIFA clarifys this issue. What do you think about this? How can we continue? --Raúl Quintana Tarufetti (talk) 22:52, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

New module for two-legged ties

For anyone interested, I have recently created Module:Sports series for use in football articles as a replacement for the two-legged tie templates (Template:TwoLegStart and Template:TwoLegResult). The module allows for quite customizable tables, as well as automatic bolding for the winners on aggregate. In addition, it uses {{fbaicon}} instead of the generic {{flagicon}}. It is also more efficient than using the two-legged tie templates, with a lower node count, post-expand include size and template argument size. I'm planning on implementing it for the next club season, having tested it quite thoroughly to ensure there are no major issues. I've added detailed documentation, which should hopefully make the features and intended usage clear enough. Let me know if you have any questions/comments/feedback. Cheers, S.A. Julio (talk) 06:50, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

This is awesome btw, thanks for all your work on it. Just thinking about European qualifiers for next season, how would it work for teams that receive a bye? Specifically, I'm thinking about this. I imagine it'll be simple based on the documentation and that something like |[[Lincoln Red Imps F.C.|Lincoln Red Imps]]|GIB|[[Bye (sports)|Bye]]|||—|— would work to produce the same results but thought I'd ask anyway. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 22:21, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

@Stevie fae Scotland: Yea should work just the same as before, I've given an example below using your code. S.A. Julio (talk) 23:58, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Team 1	Agg. Tooltip Aggregate score	Team 2	1st leg	2nd leg
Lincoln Red Imps	Bye	N/A	—	—

Mario Božiković

I was curious if we have an article on Mario Božiković at all, [53], maybe his career isn't notable enough for wiki standards these days. :/ Govvy (talk) 08:38, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

We don't. There isn't even an article in the Croatian Wikipedia: [54]. Robby.is.on (talk) 08:43, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

K, I was looking for an article to see if it was up to date, etc, Cheers, anyway. Govvy (talk) 09:21, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

He'd be eligible for an article based on the fact his obituary was in every major Croatian paper and we generally include obituaries as secondary sources. SportingFlyer T·C 01:33, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Bare uses of Template:Infobox

A number of articles in the series that includes 1880–81 in Scottish football use {{Infobox football country season}}, followed by a separate instance of {{Infobox}}. this is sub-optimal, and it would be better to either modify the former to include the necessary fields, or to crate a "module" sub-template to hold them. I'm not clear if this issue is limited to Scottish articles or whether others are similarly affected.

Separately, articles in the sequences that include 1971 All-Ireland Under-21 Football Championship, 1971 All-Ireland Minor Football Championship use {{Infobox}} rather than a more specific template. Is there one that would be better? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:23, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

The last 2 are Gaelic football, which is may have a separate WikiProjevct / set of standards. Spike 'em (talk) 18:44, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Gaelic games would be the correct WikiProject for those. Joseph2302 (talk) 19:53, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Tosin Adarabioyo

Could Tosin Adarabioyo please be watched as it's heavily edited; might need semi-protecting? JMHamo (talk) 18:30, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

 Done - of immediate concern is the discrepancy with birth place, article currently says both Manchester and London... GiantSnowman 13:28, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Should be noted that the sites in that article that are regularly used elsewhere have his birthplace as Manchester, which would be incorrect. I presume someone either at Manchester City or one of the loan clubs made an incorrect guess that 'from Manchester = born in Manchester', which Fulham may have collected that information. The introduction of the incorrect birth place started on 24 August 2016 by an IP address and probably persisted until this month. Hopefully Soccerbase and Soccerway among others will be alerted to this factual error and have it corrected on their websites. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 18:40, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Filip Engelman

This guy seems to be a fraud. Most of his stats are not available anywhere except on Transfermarkt. However, even those seem to be fake (e.g., Serbian First League official website report & Soccerway vs Transfermarkt). Also, according to Transfermarkt, he played 21 games for Dukla Banská Bystrica in the Slovak First League (at the age of 18!?), but there are no other records on the internet that back that up. He never played for OFK Beograd either. 47.201.233.193 (talk) 21:50, 9 June 2024 (UTC)