Talk:Shiprock

http://adventuretravel.about.com/b/a/123700.htm A story about whether or not climbing ShipRock is legal

Recent revert

The additions recently made were all POV versions of statements that already appeared in the article. The deletions were totally unjustifiable since they are uncontroversial factual material. If someone wants to expand on and clarify the particular religious significance (in a non-POV fashion) and/or the legal status of climbing on Shiprock, that would be appropriate, although discussing it on this talk page would be good beforehand. -- Spireguy 22:27, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Apolgoies for not following wikiprotocol in my previous edits. It is correct that the numerous references to climbing should not simply be cut. The statements do not appears in the existing text with the same significance and this should be changed. The current text portrayal of Shiprock is heavily biased from a climbers perspective. This is problematic because it is in total disregard to the Religious beliefs associated with Shiprock and should be noted as one of those controversial points. Shiprock is much more important as a sacred place than as a climbers dream.

While the easiest route and first ascent might be well sourced, these are quite minor details compared to the religious and cultural importance of Shiprock for natives throughout the southwest. In any case, First ascent should be noted as First recorded ascent by a white man.

All statements which are not well sourced or fact will be edited, and I am waiting for a proper expert on Shiprock to provide more details on what should be included here.

Diastar 02:21, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I edited the page again, quite a bit, to carefully note and source the climbing story and to try to put in a little of the religious part (for which I do not have good references, unfortunately). I can expand a bit on the climbing stuff (we can put this stuff in the article if necessary, but it's quite long and probably overly detailed):

Expanded quotations

However, questions of legality, ownership, safety, and religious significance have made the issue of access to Shiprock a complicated story. Some sources report that climbing the peak was declared illegal in 1970. However Cameron Burns reported in 1995 that:

Nathaniel Boyd, a right-of-way agent with the Navajo Tribal Parks and Recreation Department, told me that while climbing is prohibited in certain places, such as Canyon de Chelly and Monument Valley, it is not prohibited elsewhere.... A permittee (local permit holder) has domain over the permittee's land and is the person to ask for permission when seeking a climbing objective.

...Bob Rosebrough, a lawyer, dug into Navajo annals to find that the basis for a "ban" on climbing on the reservation was a letter written by Charles Damon, director of Navajo Parks and Recreation in the early 1970s. Damon suggested a ban after the death of two climbers on Shiprock in 1970.... Rosebrough conducted several interviews with lawyers in the Navajo Department of Justice only to learn that the letter was never backed up with legislation and that no ban exists, or ever has existed.

Indeed, in an interview with Damon himself...Damon suggested to Rosebrough that if we wanted to pursue climbing on the reservation, he seek permission at a local level, rather than the central tribal government.

A report in 2000, from a person denied a climbing permit, noted that "A climbing accident on Shiprock...four years ago resulted in a big rescue. The grazing permit administrator informed me that Shiprock Chapter House had passed a resolution as a result of the accident encouraging the Window Rock Chapter House not to give out permits."

The above quotations are hardly serious legal evidence - the articles by Burns reflect his utter ignorance of the laws or how to conduct careful research. He makes no distinction between climbing on Navajo land in general or approaching sacred places and seems unaware that Shiprock might have have a different status from the other climbs he was permitted. For further POV reading, http://gorp.away.com/gorp/books/excerpts/ship.htm gives a very nice subjective account of a tourist. That it was published hardly makes this verifiable. -- diastar

The link you mention is in fact the full text of the American Alpine Journal 1995 article that I quote from above. I would agree that the Burns article is not legal proof of anything, and the possible distinction between Shiprock and other climbs is quite possibly more important than he realizes. But I'm not sure why you say that it reflects his "utter ignorance of the laws." He and others clearly made a good effort to try to understand the legal situation. If there is a clear law forbidding climbing on Shiprock, then it would be great to have a reference to it. I would not be surprised to see such a law. But so far all I have seen are unsupported claims that there is such a law, on one side; and a documented, if not airtight, claim that there is no such law. In the previous version of the article I was trying to make that clear, while not coming down definitively on one side or the other, and while citing sources.

To the point: I feel that your deletion of the AAJ sources, if justifiable at all, needs much more justification than simply a negative personal opinion of the author(s). How much more verifiable do you need to be than to be published in a carefully edited, world-famous journal? I'm not saying that every claim that Burns makes is true; that is not how Wikipedia works. What I'm saying is that the claims are significant evidence, and should be included.

So please explain your rationale more carefully in terms of the Wikipedia guidelines. In the meantime I'm going to put the material back in. -- Spireguy 03:49, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

After reading through the wikipedia guidelines, it is clear that Cameron Burns does not constitute a notable source. Burns writes "We were certain that Shiprock couldn't be part of any Navajo's grazing permit as there are no houses for miles around it, and the Parks and Recreation Department's Boyd had never said anything about Shiprock. It was my blunder not to press him—or someone else—further." That the publication is respectable does not make the author of the article better informed.

I maintain that the Burns reference is a verifiable and reliable source. (Your use of the word "notable" here may indicate a confusion between two different criteria; I'm not sure.) First, the source is certainly verifiable (in the narrowest sense), simply because it is a printed source (and is also available on the web). I think the disagreement here is whether the source is reliable, or perhaps a better word is credible; but in that regard I still affirm the source. If one reads the whole article, it shows that, while Burns begins by not knowing much about the situation (as indicated by the quotation above), he does make a serious investigation, and combines his findings with those of another investigation. While these investigations did not reach the level one would want for legal proof or a careful land survey, they did reach the level a professional journalist investigating the matter would have reached. Wikipedia cites such journalists without further comment, and cites many less credible sources, so this cite should stand on those grounds. Remember, the question is not whether the source is correct, it is whether it is verifiable and credible. Disregarding such a source is contrary to the neutral point of view.

Since I have no desire to engage in endless back and forth, I'll try calling in a third opinion to see if that helps.

Responses to concerns

The issue of perceived bias toward a climbers perspective is straightforward to address, namely by including more (verifiable) material on the religious and cultural side. I have tried in a very small way to do that, but my (easily available) sources are not good in that area. I may have time to get better ones.

In general, in an article that is already long and in some ways complete, a preponderance of material on one facet of the subject can conceivably constitute lack of neutrality. However in a short article such as this, it is inappropriate to delete notable, verifiable, factual material simply because material relevant to other facets is not yet present.

It would be great to have an article that addressed Shiprock's importance as a sacred place. The right way to do that is to add material, not delete it.

The first ascent, difficulty etc. are not "quite minor", certainly not minor enough to delete them. Regardless of one's opinion of the ethical status of climbing the peak (and I for one would not encourage it), the peak is notable partly for those reasons.

I changed it back to "first ascent", unmodified, since the peak is not climbable by non-technical means, so there is no real possibility of an unrecorded ascent.

Comments welcome -- Spireguy 04:36, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment: I have made a couple of revisions. Referring to printed climbing material does not make the source good. Technical means? There are hand holds carved into Shiprock. Not the white man's technology, but is actually use of technical means. In terms of being notable for its climbing, it is to climbers. That Shiprock is iconic of the southwest would be obvious if photographers or painters (or non-climbing tourists) were being quoted. The difference is that photographing and painting images of Shiprock do not violate tribal custom. POV seems like a flexible concept.

-- diastar

I addressed the vague "does not make the source good" issue above: be specific about why the material is not appropriate.

About the first ascent: Are you claiming that there was a native first ascent? Because of the extreme difficulty of climbing Shiprock, that's an extraordinary claim and it would require extraordinary evidence. Shiprock is not like many other peaks which probably did have unrecorded first ascents. It is simply way too hard to climb without modern equipment. It's not an issue of whose technology it is; the means to climb Shiprock didn't exist in any technology before the 20th century.

So I'm afraid I'm going to basically revert that one as well, since it's just misleading as written. Giving hypothetical credit to people based on physical impossibilities isn't cultural respect, it's just shoody treatment of facts.

I agree with your last point about the notability of Shiprock as a subject for photographers and painters (in fact all artists). If I find good sources mentioning this aspect of Shiprock, I will include more material. I would like to see this article become longer and more balanced; there certainly need not be an emphasis on the climbing aspects, as I have said before. But the material about climbing should be as accurate and verifiable as possible. -- Spireguy 03:49, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

It's not our business to assess the likelihood of a native first ascent - how does anyone know whether there was or wasn't a Navajo Lynn Hill centuries ago? The correct phrasing is "first documented ascent" or "first recorded ascent", which is verifiable and refrains from speculation. Stan 19:35, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

There is precedent in Wikipedia:WikiProject Mountains: if a peak is a simple walk-up, and is in land that is inhabited by first nations, then we refrain from attributing a first ascent. But, to my knowledge, I've never seen a technical first ascent disputed: it's always assumed that modern technology and techniques are required for such ascents. See Wikipedia:WikiProject Mountains/General#First ascent. Thanks! hike395 06:54, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the point Stan raises should solve the problem: Here we deal not only with the issue of something not being recorded, but an oral tradition that is about NOT being recorded. I guess the assumption about modern technology and techniques are too culturally loaded to be of any help here. BTW: I think it points to the cultural specificity of something like wikipedia - dead grandparents that were surveyors for the Bureau of Indian Affairs and actually knew something about the beliefs and respected the oral tradition do not count!

I disagree strongly with Stan, and agree with Hike395. By Stan's logic, we would have to label every first ascent as a "first recorded ascent." (E.g. what about "a Sherpa Messner"?) I would not say that the (very mild) assumption about modern technology is culturally loaded in this case. -- Spireguy 20:38, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Third opinion

On some of the various issues expressed here:

• The idea that the Navajo may be culturally offended by climbing of the mountain requires a reliable source. The passage had been fact-tagged since January, and I can't find a thing indicating it, so I've removed it.
• This article in general focuses too much on mountain climbing and too little on the geology of the mountain and other such issues. If some information could be found regarding cultural significance, that would be excellent as well.
• Unless there is reliably-sourced evidence that the mountain had been climbed before the first recorded success, the first recorded success is, for our purposes, the first success. There is no need for a qualifier unless it reliably is in doubt whether that was genuinely the first.

Hope that's helpful! Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 05:52, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the third opinion.

• The fact tag was my fault; I left it in when I should have referenced the new source (Linford) which I had used for the cultural section. It clearly states that many Navajo are offended by the idea of climbing the peak, and the cultural section includes one reason why. Hopefully that addresses your concern about that section. I did tighten up that part (eliminating a redundant use of the "legal and appropriate" line).
• I changed to "first ascent", unmodified, as suggested.
• It would be nice to have more info on culture and geology, although I'm puzzled by the claim that it focuses too much on mountain climbing (in its current form, now that I added a lot on the culture). It currently has 3 times as much on culture/geology than on climbing. Just wondering, not complaining.
• Do you have an opinion on the use of the Cameron Burns source? I still think that needs to be in the climbing section. As it stands, the section gives the impression that climbing has not occured since 1970, which is false. -- Spireguy 16:45, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Reiteration

There is a clearly reliable source that rock climbing is not allowed on Navajo Nations lands - there are no permits available and no climbing is allowed. This is clearly indicated on the website of the administrative body that governs the land.

I removed the climbing references to Shiprock from the table. This is clearly not of the same hierarchy of information as general geological information.

In keeping with the wikipedia policy on First Nations lands, I also changed the first climb back to first recorded climb.

References to any controversy about the legality have also been removed as those seem to be cleared up.

It would possibly be appropriate to delete the references to the report in 2000 as it seems irrelevant now.

diastar —Preceding comment was added at 02:49, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

After a bit of further research into the Navajo Position on rock climbing - there are mentions that rock climbing is not allowed in Monument Valley or any part of the Nation on numerous official websites. It seems that the Nation is actively working to promote this. So I removed the anecdote from Beyer - it seems a moot point now. Hopefully, this does not ruffle any feathers. I did leave in the bit about climbers seeing Shiprock as an interesting place to climb, the first recorded ascent, and the further seven routes, but I think this should also be changed. But shouldn't all of this be referenced?

Diastar (talk) 13:00, 20 July 2008 (UTC)diastar

First, thanks to Diastar for finding an unequivocal source about the legality. That's very helpful, and it does make a little bit of what was in the article before unnecessary.

However, I disagree with the removal of a lot of the other climbing information, and I have reinstated it, in a modified form, to clearly take into account the unambiguous legal status. The information about the first ascent and the climbing difficulty are clearly relevant (and are referenced), and are completely standard facts for the infobox. (That's why there are fields for them there.)

As to the issue, previously discussed, of "first ascent" versus "first recorded ascent", I did not see a consensus on this page to use "first recorded ascent." Diastar, you mention "Wikipedia policy on First Nations lands"---please provide a link to the relevant policy or guideline page. I would be surprised to see a guideline that asserts that the phrase "first recorded ascent" must be used in all cases on any First Nations lands. Most technical peaks in the world were first climbed by non-local climbers, so I don't see how it's crucial to this issue that Shiprock is in the Navajo Nation. However, I would like to see the guideline to which you refer. For another discussion, see Wikipedia:WikiProject_Mountains/General#First_ascent. -- Spireguy (talk) 16:48, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

hi spireguy. I think the climbing references should be removed from the info box - they are not core to the entry and not as specific as height, location etc. It contributes to the notion that Shiprock should be climbed when there is an apparent information campaign by the Navajo Nation to discourage climbing (I found a red outlined mention on numerous Navajo websites that Climbing is not allowed). I think the discussion on First ascent is mainly about the infobox? And, this historical climbing information is included in the article.

For the first ascent vs first recorded ascent in the actual article, I think Stan's suggestion to use first recorded is supported by the guideline that Hike mentioned in the mountain category for First Nations land (mabe the same discussion?). I am disputing the suggestion that modern technical means are the only ones with which it is possible to scale Shiprock. My point here, is that oral tradition allows for ceremonies taking place on top of Shiprock - there are not sources suitable for wikipedia, but certainly point to the peak having been climbed before the Sierra Club trip. I guess my Grandpa is correct that there are handholds going up the cliffs. Sites like Acoma Pueblo and Chaco Canyon are evidence that the technology existed and was used to scale cliff faces several 1000 years ago. In this case, I think Stan's point about not speculating is the best way forward. It seems like a productive compromise. Diastar (talk) 20:39, 24 July 2008 (UTC)diastar

In film?

Shiprock is easily noticed in the film Transformers (film) and I believe it should be added under the 'In Fiction' section of the article. 204.134.34.190 (talk) 22:02, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I deleted the recently added mention of Transformers (film), since I think that it was trivia, which is not encouraged in Wikipedia. If we added every incidental appearance of every landmark/building/etc. in every film, Wikipedia would be inundated with facts that have no real bearing on the articles in question. -- Spireguy (talk) 01:52, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Maybe a compromise is needed? A more general mention that Shiprock appears in numerous films with a mention of some titles? Or change the section to Popular culture and add the books and film and open a space for references to photography and painting? Diastar (talk) 13:00, 20 July 2008 (UTC)diastar

I still think that the recently re-added Transformers (film) mention is unnecessary trivia. Comments from others? -- Spireguy (talk) 03:03, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

American Popular Culture

I would like to introduce a new subject heading called american pop culture that can list references to Shiprock appearing in film, fiction and the like. Actually, I would also suggest a more general entry for film as rock with wings might be more approriate to the town of shiprock entry anyway. Diastar (talk) 20:06, 23 July 2008 (UTC)diastar