Jump to content

Wikipedia:Requests for comment/SlrubensteinII

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
< Wikipedia:Requests for comment

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by ElinorD (talk | contribs) at 17:47, 11 November 2008 (→Outside view from Ramdrake: Endorse). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Statement of the dispute

This is a summary written by users who are concerned by this administrator's conduct. Users signing other sections ("Response" or "Outside views") should not edit the "Statement of the dispute" section.

Desired outcome

This is a summary written by users who have initiated the request for comment. It should spell out exactly what the changes they'd like to see in the user, or what questions of behavior should be the focus.

User:Slrubenstein should acknowledge that:

  1. responding hastily to an email request to help in an administrative matter an editor already a clear ally in editing is at the very least a bad practice, and can lead to onsite drama;
  2. the wording Editors with administrator access will strongly avoid wheel warring, that is, overriding each other's decisions, in almost all cases, since this is in itself a serious breach of administrator policy, from Wikipedia:Appealing a block, applies to his/her unblocks;
  3. in the case in question it was a serious breach of policy to make no attempt to contact the blocking admin before unblocking;
  4. it is not the case that, as Slrubenstein claimed, The Harrassment [sic] policy requires a pattern that demonstrates the intent to intimidate or threaten[1] when the harassment is “attempted outing”;
  5. speculation on the correctness of an “attempted outing” directly contradicts WP:HARASS;
  6. the comment that if "other admins strongly disagreed with my unblock, they could have reblocked" is directly contrary to the intention of policy applying to all admins, and that such reblocks tend in fact to exacerbate any situation. (Applicable is this recent case, finding of fact #1.)

Further, User:Slrubenstein should

  • agree to apply the policies WP:BLOCK, WP:UNBLOCK and WP:WHEEL properly in future;
  • agree to make best efforts to contact a blocking admin before reversing the action; and
  • desist from arguing that admins should simply back their own judgement, and can or should be able to reverse actions with no consultation whatsoever to ascertain the facts, particularly when the issue concerns disclosures of personal information.

Description

User:Mathsci, blocked 17 October 2008 on an "attempted outing" issue by User:Charles Matthews, was unblocked by User:Slrubenstein without any attempt to contact User:Charles Matthews onwiki or by email before so doing, and before 8 hours had elapsed. Subsequent discussion has not resolved the issue between the two administrators, despite informal mediation by User:Jehochman on talk pages.

Powers misused

  1. User:Mathsci log
  2. In a preceding incident that may be comparable: User:Proabivouac log

Applicable policies

  1. Block review ignored entirely, against the letter and spirit of the policy.

Evidence of trying and failing to resolve the dispute

Here are the major replies I received, in discussion also with User:Jehochman, in order:

  1. [2]
  2. [3]
  3. [4]
  4. [5]: this claims amongst other things that if "other admins strongly disagreed with my unblock, they could have reblocked". No, two wrongs don't make a right, which is the absolute bedrock of WP:WHEEL. (This is the so-called "conciliatory" statement.)
  5. [6] - seems to restate the idea that any admin can take a view on a block without consulting the blocking admin.

At no point has User:Slrubenstein contacted me to discuss this further or tried resolve it, offline.

Charles Matthews (talk) 17:19, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

User:Slrubenstein says he/she doesn't know what #5 means. It means that under WP:HARASS no one should speculate as to whether the real-life identity in the frame does correspond to the editor: it only makes the previous situation worse. Since Slrubenstein did exactly speculate in notifying me of the unblock, throwing out all sorts of random comments, this point was appropriately included. The lack of meeting of minds here is very clear, despite numerous red herrings thrown out. User:Slrubenstein apparently isn't signed up to WP:WHEEL, and hasn't construed the simple meaning of WP:HARASS. That's the point here. Charles Matthews (talk) 20:47, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Users certifying the basis for this dispute

{Users who tried and failed to resolve the dispute}

  1. Charles Matthews (talk) 17:19, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Jehochman Talk 17:24, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Other users who endorse this statement

  1. Elonka 20:01, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Response

This is a summary written by the sysop whose actions are disputed, or by other users who think that the dispute is unjustified and that the sysop's actions did not violate policy. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries.

I am accused of several things. First, my concise replies, then my side of the story.

  1. We are writing an encyclopedia, not playing a role-playing game, and in writing an encyclopedia we are all allies. MathSci usaed the proper template to appeal the block and I correctly followed procedure
  2. WP:WHEEL cannot mean that admins cannot disagree with one another. In fact, it is essential that an admin can undo the act of another admin, to help protect Wikipedia against the accumulation and abuse of power. "Wiki" is all about our correcting one another's mistakes promptly! Admins certainly should not get into the equivalent of revert wars be repeatedly undoing one anothers' acts, but I did not do any such thing.
  3. When an editor uses the proper template an admin can review and if deemed appropriate undo the block. The admin does not have to seek the approval of the blocking admin. Admin's are a diverse group of users with custodial tools, not a cadre of overlords.
  4. Well, I thought I was quoting the harassment policy. In any case, MathSci as not demonstrating malicious intent, there was no pattern, and he did not out anyone or harass anyone.
  5. Don't know what this means. If the person in question were a real victim of harassment, MathSci should be banned, period. I leave this to ArbCom to determine
  6. WP:BOLD and WP:IGNORE. Arbcom does not make policy, and even if it does, policy is descriptive not prescriptive. We cannot be bound by wikilawyering. we need to exercise our independent judgment, guided, by policies. That is the whole spirit of Wikipedia. And I did this. I read the policies, considered there spirit, and felt that a block was unnecessary to resolve the conflict between MathSci and Mervyn. After lifting the block they two editors resolved their dispute. Case closed. The system worked.


Now, my view of events:

What is at stake: Wikipedia is the encyclopedia anyone can edit at anytime. This is the core philosophy of Wikipedia. A block runs against the very core of the project. Yes, sometimes blocks are unnecessary: you out someone and harass them, you should be banned. you are a troll, you should be baned. And blocks, well, they are not punative, they are a form of resolving disputes; if you need to cool off, you can be blocked for a spell. I am all for blocking when merited. But if the block is unmerited, it ought to be reversed immediately. Admins are not gods, they are as imperfect as any other editor and make mistakes. Admins have the power to block and should use this power with caution, but blocking is such a terrible thing. If the admin's block explanation, the evidence provided, and policy do not support a block, it should be undone immediately. As long as someone is involved in a conflict that can be resolved without blocking, and has not committed vandalism, and has not made racist comments or displayed a pattern of trollish behavior, or is harassing anothe editor, in most cases the block should be undone immediately. (I grant there are exceptions where the block must not be lifted, but this case was not one of them). This is one of the most important things any admin can do. Wikipedia is the encyclopedia anyone can edit at any time.

Reply to BirgitteSB I agree in principle that an unblocking admin should contact the blocking admin first. If there is any doubt about the appeal, i would definitely wait to har from the blocking admin. But if I feel that the evidence provided does not support a block and cannot see any immediate harm done by unblocking, i think that the values of the open community, in which all can edit, are overriding.

MathSci was blocked unfairly As we know, blocks are meant to help resolve conflicts and not be punitive. In this case, it was clear to me that MathSci had been blocked unfairly. Charles alluded to past behavior, which I will address in a moment, but his block notice was capricious and inadequate: [7]. The example of outing he provides needs to be viewed in in context: MathScie was responding to Hans Adler's comment accusing Mervyn of a conflict of interest [8]. In context - MathSci is clearly NOT agreeing that there is a conflict of interest, and does not believe that Hans' comment is good cause to exclude the material; he is AGFing Mervin and making it plain that he sees only a copyright issue that, once resolved, can lead to the inclusion of the material. As for outing, If anyone is doing that, and i am not sure anyone is, it was Hans Adler in making the accusation of a conlict of interest. This accusation implicitly connected autobiographical information on Mervyn Emrys's user page with information about the author of the source being quoted in the article - information of the sort found at Amazon.com, or in the public domain (i.e. information that is often provided when discussing the notability or reliability of sources). But MathSci diud not do this I am not challenging Adler, it seems to me that Mervyn did that himself when he wrote on his user page, "cannot quote their own scholarly writings even briefly or they are alleged to have a conflict of interest" - clearly a complaint about Hans Adler's concern, not MathSci's concern. These are the salient facts and they simply do not justify the block. MathSci neither outed nor harassed another user.

Let me emphasize that MathSci was blocked for one week. Had he been blocked indefinitely I would have responded differently. But Charles did not feel it merited an indef. block - because the evidence didn't support it; in my view it did not support even a one week block. Slrubenstein | Talk 01:43, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The conflict between editors could be and was in fact resolved without blocking, as is prefered. The editor in question certainly was upset with MathSci but the conflict between them had not in my opinion reached the point where a block was necessary to resolve the conflict. And I was right. Over the next couple of days I, FT2, and Elonka communicated with both parties, MathSci apologized for the misunderstanding, and that put an end to the conflict. Specifically, I left two very encouraging messages for Mervyn Emris [9] and [10], and a very harsh message for mathScie: [11]. I will not provide the edit differences for Elonka's or FT2's extensive mentoring and nmediation but the point is: there are effective ways to deal with conflicts besides blocks. Quite effective. In fact, given that the original conflict has long since been resolved, this RfC seems to me to be superfluous.

Since the actual conflict between editors did not require a block for resolution, and the editors have resolved the conflict, the only interpretation I can reach here is that Charles Matthews made a mistake in blocking MathSci and is upset that I called him on it.

I made it clear to Charles Matthews I respected him and he should not take my reversal personally. In fact, Wikipedia admins need to be very prudent in their use of powers. I believe we should block only when necessary. The key to WHEEL is this: "Do not repeat an administrative action when you know that another administrator opposes it." Certainly, WHEEL does not prohibit admins from disagreeing with one another. In fact, given the Wiki nature of our little Open Society, disagreements among admins is as healthy as disagreements among editors. Our blocking policy states, "When a user requests unblock, an uninvolved administrator acting independently may review the block log, their edits and other relevant evidence, and additional information provided by the user and others, to determine if the unblock request should be accepted, or not, or any conditions for unblocking." MatchSci used the appropriate mechanism to appeal, I reviewed the evidence, and accepted the unblock request. At that time I left a message on Charles's talk page informing him and explaining my action.[12], [13] - these were good faith efforts to ameliorate any ill-fellings on his part. I think when people act in an official capactiy they should not take things personally, but Charles seems personally wounded.

WHEEL warring is one thing and should be discouraged; checks and balances on admins that prevent abuses of power is another and should be encouraged Of course we should not let this get out of hand. Just as we have a 3RR for editors, we have a limit on an admin's reversion of another admin. WHEEL makes it quite clear: an admin cannot repeat an action. I unblocked once. I did not repeat the unblock, nor would I have had another admin stepped in and said "SL, you made a mistake." No one did, and I believe that is because I did not make a mistake. As I said: the block was unnecessary; the editors in question resolved their conflict with some good mediation not just by myself but by FT2 and Elonka.

A lack of transparency is at best a red herring and at worst compounds the abuse of power I agree with Jehochman's point that Charles's block was utterly lacking in transparency [14] Later, Charles Matthews suggested that he had secret information that justified the block.[15] Had he stated in the explanation for the block that the block was per Checkuser, or supported by confidential evidence, or a confidential ArbCom finding, I would not have granted the appeal. But Charles Matthews did not add this to the explanation because in fact there was no secret information justifying the block (if there were, I imagine Charles Matthews would have gone by ArbCom by now to ask them to reinstate the block). Jehochman himself pointed out that Charles Matthews did not follow proper procedure, [16]. There was one past case where MathSci did to a degree violate our outing policy, and he apologized for that. The crucial thing: there was no connection between that case and this case; what MathSci did in the matter at hand was entirely different from what he did before.

Let's be out in the open about this secret evidence Charles was hiding.

Charles Matthews repeatedly alluded to secret knowlege he knows and i do not know. This is simply a power-trip. If he were serious he would have added to the summary for the block "this is based on evidenc held in confidence, see check user or ArbCom. he did not such thing; the point about how much he knows was an ex-post-facto lastditch defense. here is what he was refering to, and it is no secret: Some time ago in an argument with user:Arcfrk MatchSci suggested that he knew where ArcFrk worked. As the following exchange shows, MatchSci understands what he did was wrong, and repends. More to the point, there is no comparison between the ArcFrk example and the mervyn Emris exmaple. They are in-comperable in every way.

What I see here is nothing at all like the Arcfrk case, and nothing inappropriate, indeed, on the contrary, things I ould have done (although perhaps worded differently). Maybe Charles has displaced feelings, that he should have blocked MathSci for the Arcfrk incident, and now has another chance. Or maybe as Jehochman has suggested there is other evidence. I agree that there are limits to transparency - Charles cannot present additional evidence that would really out Mervyn. but he has not suggested that he has any such evidence, only vague statements, ditto Paul August. If they have other evidence that MathScie has outed Mervyn, evidence that, because it itself is the outing, cannot be repeated here, he should have said so (it is a moot point now, since Mervyn has since outed himself), and reblock MathSci. But please, no more references to Arcfrk, the two cases are too different. And a careful reading of the case at hand makes me think Charles for some reason is not treating MathSci fairly Nothing that Charles has posted, before or after the block, warrants a 1 week block for outing.
I think now that mervyn has outed himself we need to return to the real issue, that MathSci pointed out: we should add good content to an article, but not by cutting and pasting seven pages from a book. Let's figure out how to add the material in an appropriate way. More work on writing an encyclopedia and fewer power games, okay? Slrubenstein | Talk 17:02, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I am not at all happy with the way I interacted with Arcfrk and, although neither side is blameless, I personally did not act at all honourably. I would sincerely like to correct this on or off-wiki and establish amicable and collegial relations with Arcfrk. This was one of the things that Oded Schramm tried to put in motion. Mathsci (talk) 19:16, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The question is outing, and when ArcFrk ccured he perhaps should have gotten a stiffer warning. But should we punish Mathsci NOW for what he did THEN? His interactions with mervyn Emrys bear 'no comparsion. Had MathSci really outed someone he perhaps should have been banned. In fact, MathSci did no such thing: he called attention to a possible copyright violation; another editor suggested that the editor was using copyrighted material the editor himself had written, MathSci said that readers can draw their own conclusions about the editors identity but the issue he was concerned with was copyright violation, and MathSci suggested the editor consult with other editors with more experience concerning copyright issues. MatchSci had a legitimate concern and was attempting to be constructive. In this case, MathSci just did not violate a policy.!!

Admins have to watch out for one another. Message: we are only human!! It is better for one admin to fis another's mistake than risk an abuse of power at Wikipedia's open community. Charles, you made a mistake. We all do and it is not a biggie. Admins have to admit that they can make mistakes as easily as other editors. It is precisely because admins can so easily undo one anothers' mistakes that we mitigate against the abuse of power. I do however think you compounded the mistake by falsely suggesting that you had secret knowledge that justified the unblock after the fact. Wikipedia depends on transparency to prevent the accumulation and abuse of power. Let's all try harder next time to act more transparently. If an admin blocks and makes it clear that s/he has additional information other admins must consider before considering an appeal to unblock I swear I will consult with that admin.

Charles seemed to me to be uninterested in reconciliation and prefered to escalate conflict. if I was wrong, I apologize!! But look a our exchanges: Since that time Charles became increasingly aggressive in demanding I explained myself, and I did. Charles said I did not contact him offline to resolve the conflict between myself and him (apparently the case concerning MathSci was no longer an issue). In fact, Charles never asked me to contact him offline, nor asked me for my e-mail address; his only communication with me was curt and dismissive[17]. I wrote on his talk page a conciliatory message to try to resolve the conflict.[18] I saw no need to go off-line because wikipedia values transparency; I have no problem communicating my views publicly, I think it is important that administrators carry out their business, like editors, in public (were this a checkuser case, or a case involving a confidential ArbCom decision, of course I would have responded quite differently, but it was not). Charles rejected my conciliatory comments and I had a decision to make: escalate a conflict over an issue that was moot, or refrain from escalating a conflict. I chose not to escalate the conflict. Frankly, I think Wikipedia does not need the unnecessary drama and I am sorry that now so long after the fact Charles still wants more drama. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:28, 10 November 2008 (UTC) {Add summary here, but you must use the endorsement section below to sign.}[reply]

Users who endorse this summary:

  1. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:28, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Moreschi (talk) 19:40, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Ramdrake (talk) 19:51, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  4. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 21:49, 10 November 2008 (UTC) (made a further comment here also)[reply]
  5. Yep Shot info (talk) 02:07, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  6. -- The Red Pen of Doom 03:56, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Hints about secret knowledge are inappropriate. If there really is something confidential, say so in the block log. I'm all in favor of contacting the blocking admin before unblocking, but my experience with arbitrator blocks is that they simply ignore correspondence. Also, this was not a wheel war according to WP:WHEEL. SlimVirgin talk|edits 06:14, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  8. -- Nevard 06:46, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  9. -- dougweller (talk) 06:54, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  10. RfCs should not be used to massage an editor's bruised ego. Alun (talk) 07:30, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  11. why more drama? (rhetorical) Verbal chat 07:47, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  12. If Charles had real but secret evidence that MathSci was deliberately outing and harassing an editor who was trying to remain anonymous, he should (a) have blocked indefinitely and (b) have stated clearly in the block log that it was per arbcom evidence. A block for a week, with no notification that it's based on confidential information, is the same as any week-long block made by a non-arb — neither sacred not to be overturned lightly. And if there really is confidential information, why has Charles not asked the ArbCom to reinstate the block? ElinorD (talk) 16:59, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  13. DurovaCharge! 17:26, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  14. Slrubenstein is addressing the substance of the issue in his response. He appears to have behaved reasonably. Charles Matthews seems to be focusing on rules and mostly appears unhappy that someone dared overturn one of his actions. This strikes me an an inappropriate attempt at ownership. We're all human, and we should not have an undue reluctance to change what we see as mistakes. If we start trying to call a single reversal of admin action a "wheel war", we're simply asking for bureaucratic paralysis. Charles, I don't care how influential you think you are. Nobody needs your permission to do things around here. Friday (talk) 17:44, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Outside view

This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries.

{Add summary here, but you must use the endorsement section below to sign.}

Users who endorse this summary:

Outside view from Moreschi

This RFC seems like a major fuss over nothing. Okay, so Slr should have slowed down a bit before pressing the unblock button. Yada yada yada, he's been a naughty boy, let's all spank his behind. That does not change the fact that Charles Matthews blocking Mathsci, a productive and valued contributor, for an entire week under a tenuous charge of "outing" was a major mistake: a quiet word in his ear to be a bit more circumspect would have been perfectly fine: Mathsci is a rational, intelligent guy who respects Wikipedia policy. We should not block such people when they point out potential conflicts of interests in a civil and constructive manner, particularly not in cases when the user in question cannot have been much concerned about protecting his privacy. Reading through the history, it looks like he put a pile of personal information on his userpage and then, with no prompting, edited in such a manner that it was blindingly obvious who he was (citing his own books).

I am not, obviously, suggesting that we all lynch Charles Matthews instead: we all make bad blocks from time to time - that's just a fact of life. But this RFC is a waste of time, particularly when the real misuse of admin tools here was not done by Slr.

Users who endorse this summary:

  1. Moreschi (talk) 17:56, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  2. With minor reservations. I am indeed concerned about Charles Matthews' conduct, and have been for a year. DurovaCharge! 19:47, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:55, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Ramdrake (talk) 19:59, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Tim Vickers (talk) 23:03, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  6. I disagree with the spanking of behinds, but otherwise... OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 01:02, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Yep, where was Charles when Elonka decided to splatter SA's real life information across various noticeboards? Shot info (talk) 02:09, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  8. So whose shoes did he piss on? C'mon, get a life and move on to more important matters. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;dissera! 02:48, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  9. Per Durova and OrangeMarlin. SlimVirgin talk|edits 06:14, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  10. Per Durova, OrangeMarlin and Shot info. Oh, and Jim62sch dougweller (talk) 06:55, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  11. Absolutely. Alun (talk) 07:31, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  12. Agreed. Verbal chat 07:48, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  13. Agreed as statement by Moreschi. . dave souza, talk 10:40, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  14. Agreed, especially the "waste of time" part and Durova's comment. Given that Slr had already acknowledged his error and apologized to Charles long before this RfC was filed, it's hard to see this RfC as constructive. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 15:54, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  15. Per Durova, per Shot info (assuming what he says is true — I'd be interested in Charles's reaction to that) and especially per Orangemarlin. ElinorD (talk) 17:03, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  16. Angus McLellan (Talk) 17:29, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Outside view from Ramdrake

Being unkind, I would say that this whole affair reminds me of a certain Shakespeare play. Yes, Slrubenstein was a bit prompt in unblocking, pooh-pooh on that. But also, Charles Matthews should have properly documented that there might be more than met the eye in this situation. No need to disclose the existence of private information, but a simple stipulation to contact him before unblocking would probably have quelled any possibility for a misunderstanding, which is exactly how I see this situation: a simple misunderstanding blown out of all reasonable proportions.

I believe something very similar to this exact situation is what makes the Blocking policy now read: If there are any specific recommendations or circumstances that a reviewing administrator would need to know, or which may help to avoid administrator disputes upon review of a block, the blocking administrator is strongly encouraged to note them in the block notice. In this case, it indeed looks like there may have been special circumstances which the reviewing admin did not know, and would have needed to know. Charles Matthews cannot fairly blame this entirely on Slrubenstein; he needs to also acknowledge his part in the misunderstanding.

Also, the relevant part of the harassment policy does have the caveat: unless unintentional and non-malicious. Further developments between Mathsci and the user he allegedly "outed" would seem to prove that the outing was indeed non-malicious (it was indeed based on information publicly available on the wiki and supplied by that user himself), even if it may have been misguided. Therefore, a solid block of a week, on the face of this specific offense is also arguably disproportionate to the real offense.

Lastly, this looks like an overblown reaction to a simple misunderstanding, and taken on its face, comes across as a demand from the plaintiff that none of his blocks should ever be overturned in his absence, which isn't a realistic expectation, and while overturns should be kept to a minimum, this particular overturn was arguably sustained logically. This might have been handled better on both sides, true, but Slrubenstein already apologized for his hastiness. I fail to see what purpose would be served by pursuing this dispute further, except to further waste people's time. Users who endorse this summary:

  1. Ramdrake (talk) 19:45, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  2. DurovaCharge! 19:48, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  3. With the additional comment that I don't think there were any special circumstances here. Charles Matthews just overreacted to a certain ANI thread (which I have deliberately not linked to). If Mathsci's comment was such a grievous privacy vio, something truly blockworthy, why has it not been oversighted? Moreschi (talk) 19:52, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Much Ado About Nothing...With so many other, more detrimental (to WikiWorld) administrative actions it requires no further investment of valuable time, as Ramdrake reminds us.--Buster7 (talk) 23:21, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  5. JoshuaZ (talk) 01:29, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  6. -- The Red Pen of Doom 05:56, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  7. SlimVirgin talk|edits 06:14, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  8. This RfC is another overreaction. Alun (talk) 07:34, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  9. Agreed, also note the sequence that Charles Matthews blocked and gave notice at 16:29, was asked on Mathsci's talk page for further clarification of reasons at 20:39, but as far as I've seen made no public statement that there were hidden reasons by the time Slrubenstein unblocked at 23:47. Slrubenstein's apology seems fully sufficient in the circumstances. . . dave souza, talk 10:54, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  10. The block was bad. Maybe the unblock was bad. This RfC is not only bad but a waste of time. Ramdrake hits the nail on the head (or some other appropriate metaphor). OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 17:36, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  11. Good admins and users do commit minor offences from time to time. Slrubenstein committed a minor offence in not waiting a little longer to hear back from Charles. I'd word that much more strongly if it had been an indefinite block, but if someone really needs to be removed from the project, you don't block for a week; a week-long block is one that can be overturned once without seriously endangering the project, even if it's annoying or insulting for the blocking admin. Going after Slr a month later (when the block was never redone, when things seem fine between the supposedly harassing editor and his victim, and when Slr has already apologised) seems actually more troubling than the minor offense, and looks like being more interested in forcing someone to apologise a bit more than in building the encyclopaedia. ElinorD (talk) 17:47, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Outside view from BirgitteSB

I am leery of an RfC on admin actions that relies solely on one instance of procedural misconduct. Yes, admins should always consult the blocking admin before unblocking. However the foremost reason for this is so that they may be fully informed of the situation to prevent an error in judgment. Since no one has re-blocked in this case, the judgement to unblock had merit. Which means this RfC is merely a procedural misconduct. I do believe procedural misconduct should merit an RfC unless a pattern of such misconduct is shown, but that is not shown in this case. My other problem with this case is that lack of "Evidence of trying and failing to resolve the dispute". All the link given there are to Slrubenstein's edits. Where have the editors who dispute Slrubenstein's actions made an attempt to resolve the issue with him? All and all I don't see enough merit in the presentation of the RfC to take the time to look closely at what happened in this case. If nothing further can be added that negates the issues I pointed out; I expect Slrubenstein to be more careful in the future and to be certain to discuss unblocks with the blocking admin before taking action. Just because his instinct served him well in this case and the unblock has been upheld, it doesn't mean he should feel comfortable about unblocking people without fully reviewing the situation which got them block with the block admin. As for the rest, I don't see what can be accomplished by asking someone to acknowledge their remarks as false. In this case, Slrubenstein's intrpretation of policy in unblocking Mathsci was upheld. Why take pieces of his comments out of the context of the particular situation and outline that he should deny that there is any merit in them? People just do not work that way and the expectations set out at the beginning of the RfC are unrealistic. This RfC overall is presented in way that is more likely to exacerbate the situation than resolve it.

I worte the above before Slrubenstein's reply. I do believe he should make a reasonble attempt to contact the blocking admin and get the full story before unblocking in future, regardless of the blocking summary, and would ask him to please concede this small point.

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

  1. BirgitteSB 20:14, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  2. -- The Red Pen of Doom 03:58, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  3. I have barely looked at what happened, but an RFC/U over a single instance of very moderate wheel-warring seems very odd to me. RFC/U, as I understand it, is for when there is an ongoing pattern of behavior. The complaint here seems to be neither a pattern nor ongoing. --Jaysweet (talk) 16:07, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-involved view from Elonka

When Slrubenstein unblocked Mathsci without consulting the blocking admin first, multiple admins, including myself, expressed concerns.[19] Aside from the lack of consultation, which is a violation of WP:BLOCK, Slrubenstein's actions also gave the appearance of using his admin tools in support of an ally. His action was not a random unblock. In fact, a look at Slrubenstein's logs show that he does not usually work in the area of block review at all. In his last two years as an administrator, he has performed only three unblocks,[20] all of which were controversial. The only editor that he's unblocked in 2008 was Mathsci (talk · contribs), an editor with whom Slrubenstein has frequently allied in various editing disputes, especially in controversial race-related articles.[21][22][23][24][25][26][27] Looking further back to 2007, Slrubenstein's only unblocks were of two other controversial editors, Deeceevoice (talk · contribs) and Proabivouac (talk · contribs). In the case of the former, Slrubenstein unblocked even though the block was made in response to an ANI thread. In the case of Proabivouac, Slrubenstein overturned, again without consultation, a block made by FT2 (talk · contribs). As for Slrubenstein's reasoning for the unblock of Mathsci, where Slrubenstein said, "I see no pattern",[28] even a basic look at the history of Mathsci's talkpage would show that Mathsci has previously received multiple warnings for disruption,[29][30][31][32][33] including warnings for harassment, stalking, and outing.[34][35][36][37] A simple look at Mathsci's block log would have shown that Mathsci has been previously blocked for harassment,[38] and a scan of WP:ANI archives and other noticeboards around Wikipedia would have shown multiple complaints.[39][40][41][42] All of which could have been explained to Slrubenstein, if he would have simply contacted the blocking admin and asked a question. Instead, that Slrubenstein still unblocked his ally Mathsci anyway, was at the very least extremely unwise, not to mention a violation of administrator policy. In short, it would appear that Slrubenstein may not have been using his admin tools with the necessary neutrality.

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

  1. Elonka 00:56, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Outside view by JoshuaZ

This isn't a complete outside view but only addresses a few points since a variety of outside views have made many of the points I would. First, it is a good idea for admins to consult with blockers of all sorts before unblocking. However, failing to do so on a single block, especially a questionable block on a long-time user is not that big a deal. Jehochman's assertion is simply not persuasive. Any blocking admin can put in the block statement an additional request to discuss with them if they think there's any relevant evidence. That didn't occur in this case. Moreover, as a general rule I'd be surprised if even half of our active admins could identify which people have oversight and checkuser. So insisting that the oversighters should be treated differently when they can simply make relevant points in the block log is not persuasive. This is logical and is what is described as proper in WP:BLOCK.

Elonka raises more substantial issues that may need to be addressed. Is Slrubenstein's behavior part of a general problem? Elonka's argument is interesting but ultimately not persuasive. Elonka points out that Slrubenstein has only ever unblocked 3 times. The total number of unblocks is not by itself good evidence since in general unblocks are rare. Nor is the point that all three were controversial unblocks strong evidence. Many, possibly most unblocks are controversial. More worrisome is the argument that all three unblocks occurred with editors who Slrubenstein had worked with for a while. However, in all three cases, Slrubenstein has interacted with the users but not always in a positive fashion. Thus, the claim of a serious bias in that regard is not necessarily present. Moreover, an admin will naturally be more likely to unblock people who they have interacted with before because a) they are more likely to notice the individual's block and b) more likely to have the individual's talk page watchlisted and c) more likely to be emailed by the individual if the individual is attempting to find an admin to review it.

All of that said, three may be a sign of a pattern. I hope that in the future Slrubenstein does make an attempt to discuss any unblocks with the blocking admin before unblocking. But that's not a big issue. Now to paraphrase User:WAS 4.250, the game we are trying to play is the the Let's-Write-An-Encyclopedia Game. Let's go back to that and have less of the Let's-Engage-In-Bickering-Infighting-And-General-Pissing-Matches Game. Mhhm-kay?

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

  1. JoshuaZ (talk) 01:31, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Only the last two sentances :-) Shot info (talk) 02:14, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  3. -- The Red Pen of Doom 04:00, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Quite. Alun (talk) 07:38, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Agreed. Ramdrake (talk) 14:44, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Good summary. Tim Vickers (talk) 14:51, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Good analysis. . dave souza, talk 17:44, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Involved view from Jehochman

Blocking and unblocking are serious actions that should not be done in haste. It is important to gather all the relevant information first, especially when an Oversighter blocks somebody for harassment. Even if they fail to say so in the block notice, they may have private evidence. In this case User:Slrubenstein should have asked User:Charles Matthews for clarification before processing any unblock request. Additionally, unblock requests should be processed by uninvolved admins, preferably those who respond to requests listed at CAT:UNB. There is at least an appearance that this unblock was motivated by a desire to help a friend, as SIrubenstein does not normally patrol the requests for unblock category.

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

  1. Jehochman Talk 01:07, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Outside view from ScienceApologist

This, like most User RfCs, is a monumental waste of time.

Users who endorse this summary (sigh with ~~~~):

  1. ScienceApologist (talk) 04:15, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  2. SlimVirgin talk|edits 06:14, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:22, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  4. So it is. Alun (talk) 07:39, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Too much already. . dave souza, talk 10:56, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Could not agree more. Ramdrake (talk) 14:41, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Maybe if "Admin Coaching" were about coaching people to be admins instead of about coaching people to pass RfAs, we wouldn't see grads from the "Admin Coaching" program engaging in such petty bickering. --Jaysweet (talk) 16:53, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Short and sweet. I love it. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 17:33, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

All signed comments and talk not related to an endorsement should be directed to this page's discussion page. Discussion should not be added below. Discussion should be posted on the talk page. Threaded replies to another user's vote, endorsement, evidence, response, or comment should be posted to the talk page.

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/SlrubensteinII&oldid=251139191"