Talk:Christmas controversies

This article was nominated for deletion on 25/8/2006. The result of the discussion was merge and redirect.

This article was nominated for deletion on 2005-12-25. The result of the discussion was speedy keep. An archived record of this discussion can be found here.

This article was nominated for deletion on 2005-12-26. The result of the discussion was speedy keep. An archived record of this discussion can be found here.

POV?

"as well as several other prominent retailers that practiced similar downgradings of the holiday." This seems a bit...loaded? Downgrading of the holiday? It sounds like an assumption of deliberate, well, downgrading of the holiday. As opposed to, say, "...that practiced similar obscuration of the holiday." Maybe not even obscuration. But it sounds (to my ears) like an implication of intent to insult Christmas (when my cynical mind would suggest that, more likely, it is an attempt not to alienate any customer base and thus lose money) Thoughts? FangsFirst (talk) 08:07, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I would go with "obscuration" rather than "downgrading." Most retailers will gladly take (and some even rely on) the massive upsurge in shopping in November and December related to Christmas, but some (Target is a recent example, at least from a few years ago) have been known to tone down or even eliminate decorations (excepting those for sale) and ambient music. HappyJake (talk) 18:46, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Obscuration demonstrates the frustration that some feel without making it sound like an intentional insult, which it is not. Gtbob12 (talk) 15:46, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

If everyone has agreed that "downgrading" ought to be replaced by "obscuration", why hasn't anyone done it yet? Regardless, I'm going to change it. Ginnna 02:02, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Other holidays

I think the article should note the other holidays occuring at the same time including Hanukkah, Yule, Kwanza, and im sure theres some more, and that the midwinter period is a traditional time for celebrations. also a lot of Christmas elements are actually taken from the other holidays. Eg Christmas trees, holy, etc from Yule, Christmas lights/ candles from Hanukkah. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.30.174 (talk) 02:22, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

What does this have to do with Christmas-related controversy? Suggest this at Christmas/holiday season, not here.. — ^{`</sup>CRAZY`(lN)`SANE<sup>`} 05:35, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

This isn't about the history of Christmas... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.23.136.203 (talk) 21:52, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Request for comment on new edits

I have made extensive changes to the entirety of this article (minus the "Historical controversy" section), and I believe they're for the better. I am requesting external comment to determine if the edits suit the NPOV of the article, and to suggest improvements if needed. Thanks. — ^{`</sup>CRAZY`(lN)`SANE<sup>`} 19:11, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Altho' the lead does mention Britain, it doesn't seem to feature prominently in the body of the article. There has been quite a bit of fuss about it here, with local authorities inventing something called Winterval, & Red Cross charity shops banning Christmas cards. Such behaviour has been criticized by Muslims among others, & the Red Cross objection to Christian symbols is absurd, as they are one themselves. I can't cite any sources for this, tho'. Peter jackson (talk) 11:13, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

It all seems a wee bit pro-Christmas to me. Having lived in a very multicultural city, i'm used to having decorations etc in a combined display for Xmas, honnuka, Diwali. I'd never heard any complaints about this before - it made the holiday season longer and more fun! There are no notable groups supporting the idea of replacing Xmas? Eg. I'm sure i've read editorials, both pro and anti, in UK newspapers when Birmingham was having "Winterval" one year.

Also i agree with the above that mentioning the overlapping holidays would help inform the reader and put this into context. If the holiday was ONLY about Xmas there would be no reason to downplay it, apart from the consumerist reasons given. Social inclusivity and unfairness in having government pay for holiday events for only one religion is also a factor. The name "Winterval" covered Xmas and Diwali, so the council only had to put up one set of non-religion-specific decorations. It's not only about "political correctness gone mad, and pro- and anti- christian biases. Yobmod (talk) 11:52, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

That sounds fair- one Super Winter Holiday, combining all the various stuff celebrated by people in the area. I've got no problem with that. However, it's when they've got "Happy Holiday" and it's clearly meaning Christmas (Santa and reindeer, nothing from other holidays), then that is when it's trouble. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.8.26.10 (talk) 20:25, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

pov tag

This article is entirely one-sided. It frequently cites the American Family Association, which is as far from a reliable source as it is possible to get. It uses isolated examples of people claiming to be atheist, Muslim, etc., to support the dubious conclusion that vast numbers of non-Christians are on board with this word policing. (And let's be clear, the word police are not the ones who choose to say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas", the word police are the ones who get their panties all up in a bunch of somebody else says "Happy Holidays" to them!) It contained at least one glaring inaccuracy -- corroborating AFA's claim about Home Depot, which was exposed as a falsehood. The only time it refers to the motivations of those who wanted to use the more inclusive "Holiday" instead of "Christmas", it says that they are motivated by political correctness, which is a loaded term with negative implications. And it does not at any time present the other side of the argument, that the people who are saying this are imagining the whole damn thing. --Jaysweet (talk) 20:47, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Bah, I am trying to fix the article but I think I feel too strongly about this issue to do so neutrally. On a personal note, my wife and I are both atheists, but I come from a Christian tradition and she comes from a Jewish tradition, so we are proud to celebrate both Christmas and Chanukah in December, as a way of honoring our roots and celebrating tradition. So for my family, "Happy Holidays" really is the most accurate -- and when people act like it's somehow offensive to say "Happy Holidays," I really want to kick them in the balls with a steel-toed boot. --Jaysweet (talk) 20:53, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Objectors

It seems odd to me, when giving examples of people "fighting" the War on Christmas, it mentions one Athiest, one Muslim, and two Jews... as though all those groups only have those specific people on that side. Just seems a little odd, right? One Muslim out of a billion? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.8.26.10 (talk) 03:06, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

That's all that the citations support. Perhaps the assertion should be removed altogether, if the facts supported by the citation seem odd and out of place. --Jaysweet (talk) 21:52, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Discussion over neutrality of article

I think the point of that assertion is that it is not only right-wing Christian fundamentalists that concern themselves with this issue. I know several non-Christians personally (including myself) that share that view. Perhaps I could find additional citations. To add, I've done some changes to the recent additions by Jaysweet and an anonymous IP user. Let's discuss any further issues here. — ^{`</sup>CRAZY`(lN)`SANE<sup>`} 03:17, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Despite the fact that we find ourselves on opposite sides of the issue, I actually agreed with most of your recent edits. You have been fairly measured in your modifications to my edits, e.g. you are probably correct to put "claimed" rather than "revealed" in the paragraph talking about AFA's lies about Home Depot... since nobody really has solid proof either way.

I still have a problem with the "atheists, Muslims, and Jews" section, though. I see one person claiming to be an atheist who supports this. Frankly, I think just about everyone who isn't a fundie who thinks there is a "War on Christmas" is terribly misinformed -- I mean, people say Merry Christmas everywhere I go, there are plenty of Christmas displays, etc.... But whatever. I'll get off my soapbox now.

I might be okay with wording to the effect of "Those who oppose this perceived censorship of Christmas include a number of individuals and organizations who adhere to a religion or philosophy other than Christianity", with the four cites all following that sentence. I am just not comfortable with saying that atheists and Muslims, when there is only a single citation for each. I don't want to give undue weight to the few scattered atheists who have bought into this.

What do you think? ---Jaysweet (talk) 22:19, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. I have incorporated these changes. Just so you know, I have basically been the sole editor of this article for several months now, and I've been trying to edit it as neutrally as possible (albeit including any information that can be cited), so sorry if I came off as a bit snappy or possessive. And though the article may seem one-sided, this is an article about Christmas controversy, so there will generally be more sources of information about those who perceive a "censorship" or controversy, rather than sources about those who perceive nothing. But regardless of my personal POV, please rest assured that I've been pretty adamant in ensuring neutrality. I very much welcome any sourced material you may find from the opposing argument.

I'm very glad to see someone else editing here, and glad to see they are on the other side of the argument. We can certainly work together to make this article as neutral as possible. If you see any other issues or have new material, please feel free to discuss it all here, and together, we can ensure to steer the article more toward neutrality and professionalism. I understand that the "other side" might not be covered enough in the article, so I'd be glad to have someone assist in filling the gap... with sources of course :). Thanks for your interest in the article (haha, I'm saying this as if it's MY article).

Also in case you were wondering, I removed the "citation needed" tag from the "Spring Holiday" mention because it links to an article that explains the situation. — ^{`</sup>CRAZY`(lN)`SANE<sup>`} 03:32, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

links

If the article is about Christmas we don't need all of this links pointing to other non-related crap. For example, why the hell is the word "pet" linked? We also don't need stuff like "New York City, "Greek Letter" "Public schools" "English" "Spanish" "Inclusive" "petitions" "retail" "mainstream media" and "customer service" linked. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.136.48.194 (talk) 09:20, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Secularization of Easter

There are similar controversies about the secularization of Easter, which is more important than Christmas from a liturgical point of view. It would be interesting if we could have some information on that too. ADM (talk) 00:13, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

god condems cristmas tree

The King James Version reads: "Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen.... For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not." i think its from jeriamah —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.193.42.11 (talk) 00:44, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

worldwide...

the article currently has some sort of box that asks for worldwide/inclusive coverage of the issue. I would assume whoever put it there can remove it. I've never come into contact with this issue on a major scale outside North America. Most traditionally/historically Christian countries either have an established state church or lack any explicit non-establishment clause.