Talk:Periodic table

Abolition of GNU/FDL??

Why has this template been made so incredibily complicated, with tons of transclusions, whistles, bells etc. Is this done on purpose to make sure that no teacher in the world can copy it and adapt it for his/her class. Isn't that the opposite of what GNU/FDL is supposed to do?

Jcwf (talk) 16:40, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I do kinda agree with you that you have to understand a lot of technical crapola about tables and templates and transclusions in order to mess around with the Wikipedia periodic table for a class, but I think that every little addition of a doodad was done for a good technical reason that made sense to a consensus of reasonable people. The fact is that it's not easy to create a rational system of interconnecting doodads to put a lot of visual information onto the web in a small space. If you just want to copy the table, use a screen capture. It's just not a goal of Wikipedia to create a digital environment where teachers can easily create an alternate universe for students where the noble gases are to the left of the pnictogens. But with a little effort you still should be able to figure out how to do that anyway. If you want to tweak simple things around for a class then I think you only need to know the information in Help:Table and then you can copy the content in Periodic_table_(text_only) to a sandbox and mess around with it there. After you do that for a while, I think you'll start to appreciate why Template:element cell was used in Periodic_table_(standard). Flying Jazz (talk) 06:02, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

chemistry and all its defindings

chemistry has long been known as a branch of science that study matters and the changes it undergoes but do we really understand the basic logic in this defination? as we all may know matter is anything that has mass and take up space so what type of matter is out there? eg: eggs is a common repilca of a matter it has mass and is also take up space so now you might be wondering what are the type of change does matter goes through well we have a physical change and a chemical change example of both are burning paper and melting of ice, tearing paper or rust on an old car. thanks for your time MD.Abbaccus S Dokie, university of Liberia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.117.226.174 (talk) 01:39, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Groups And Periods (Pnictogens)

Some other groups in the periodic table display fewer similarities and/or vertical trends (for example Groups 14 and 15).

Isn't group 15 called the Pnictogens. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.171.40.3 (talk) 11:04, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

yes --BlueEarth (talk | contribs) 19:08, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

The graph in the section on periodicity shows ionisation energies down a group (the noble gases), not across a period as it wrongly claims. The caption clearly does not make sense with the graph. If someone has a correct graph it ought to be replaced.

It shows both periodicities, down the groups and periods. I can read the graph fine. What are the problems? Materialscientist (talk) 22:05, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Sorry my mistake. Should i remove my earlier comments to save space on the discussion page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.144.101.33 (talk) 18:53, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Um, no. Lanthanum-138 (talk) 06:11, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

IUPAC recommended nomenclature

According to IUPAC, the inner-transition elements should be called Lanthanoids and Actinoids instead of Lanthanides and Actinides. (So is trans-actinoids.) Zhieaanm (talk) 00:44, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

I have never heard these "-oids" terms before. Where, exactly, can they be found? Could you provide a url? RobertAustin (talk) 16:39, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

See http://old.iupac.org/reports/periodic_table/index.html and http://old.iupac.org/reports/periodic_table/IUPAC_Periodic_Table-22Jun07b.pdf.

Ben (talk) 17:10, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

New layout?

Shpackov A.A.Dear Collegues! Alas! You had made methodologic mistake in Your publication. H has not neutrone and therefore H could not to have isotopes as isotopes are chemical elements having (!!!) the same number of protones and electrounes and different quantity of neutrones. D is chemical elements like all isotopes do. Mendellev`s periodic law and table are archaic, and new chemical elements properties law and new (homological) classification had were created /1. Shpackov A.A. The nature and boundaries of information science(s). / J. Amer. Soc. Inform. Sci., vol.43, no.10, p.678-681, and the Universal Classification scheme, 1992 - see ATOM class; Шпаков А.А. Новый закон и классификация химических элементов, изотопов и ионов. / 2. Бюллетень Московского общества испытателей природы. Отдел геологический. Москва: Изд-во МГУ, т.68, №1, с.136-137, 1993; 3. Шпаков А.А. Карта Знаний. Москва: Информот, плакат формата А 2 со схемой на одной стороне и текстом на обратной, 2005/. The chemical elements properties are depending from all elementary particles, having form chemical elements and from particles proprties and its relationships in atoms, and chemical elements proprties functions are linear in the chemical elements homological rows /2/. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shpackov (talk • contribs) 08:12, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

In the periodic table, "H" is the element "hydrogen", not specifically "the ¹H isotope of hydrogen", just like all other element symbols refer to all isotopes of their element. Deuterium is special enough that it is assigned its own symbol, and when one is talking about isotopes of hydrogen, "H is ¹H and D is ²H". DMacks (talk) 08:21, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

WP:OR, in any case. Lanthanum-138 (talk) 09:10, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Atomic Weights?

I was looking at the Periodic Table...

Trying to figure out molar weights... but unfortunately there were no Atomic Weights in the Periodic Table. Obviously it is a complicated subject for an introduction, but very useful for determining quantities of reagents, for example acid/base equivalents.

See: http://www.webelements.com/nexus/Printable_Periodic_Table --Keelec (talk) 09:40, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Periodic table (large version) includes atomic mass data. Vsmith (talk) 13:28, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

The same number which is most correctly called the "average atomic mass" (but often called, incorrectly and confusingly, the "atomic weight") is the mass of the average atom (which doesn't actually exist; it is a weighted average of masses for the isotopes of the element in question which appear in nature) for a particular element, IF the unit following the number is "u," the symbol for the atomic mass unit. If the unit is changed to "g" (for "grams"), but the number is left exactly the same, THEN you have the molar mass. The molar mass is, of course, much larger than the average atomic mass, even though the numbers match -- for a gram is far larger than an atomic mass unit, and you are giving the mass of ~6.022x10^23 atoms, rather than just one. RobertAustin (talk) 16:37, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

The Father of the Periodic Table

"Dmitri Mendeleev, father of the periodic table" is not a correct caption, because it needs to be:

"Dmitri Mendeleev, the father of the periodic table".

Likewise, George Washington is the father of our country;

Edward Teller was the father of the hydrogen bomb;

Marx was the father of Communism;

John Adams was the father of John Quincy Adams;

Darth Vader is the father of Luke Skywalker;

Sir William Henry Bragg was the father of Sir William Lawrence Bragg;

And so forth. Dale101usa (talk) 18:26, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

All of your other examples are different: you're writing a complete sentence ("is"/"was"), so you require some article and have to choose definite "the" rather than indefinite "a". It's a small clause (I think that's the term). See [1] for an analogous example illustrating the non-need for an article. That said, adding "the" would make it seem more like it's his title, which is the whole point of that caption, rather than just as a description/adjective/synonym of the person. DMacks (talk) 21:04, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong, grammatically, with having "Dmitri Mendeleev, father of the periodic table" appear as part of a sentence. It is also fine to include the article "the" in this same phrase. This is simply a case where essentially the same thing can be written, correctly, in at least two different ways -- nothing more than that. It's also hardly worth an argument. RobertAustin (talk) 16:27, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Karl Marx, father of Communism... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.34.163.171 (talk) 02:13, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

You think the word the has to be in there? (The) can be in there, but... it doesn't have to be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wd930 (talk • contribs) 02:01, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

(The) only has to be in there if it's ("Dimitri Mendeleyv is the father of the periodic table".)

Oh, you could say that Dimitri Mendeleyv is father of the periodic table.Wd930PeriodicTable (Talk) (talk) 02:21, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

• BUT this is all missing the point! If anyone was the father of the periodic table, JAR Newlands was, in 1865. He produced the first table with periods (octaves) and proposed the existence of previously undetected elements such as germanium. By this reckoning, Mendeleev was a foster parent or kidnapper, for his contribution was to rediscover Newlands work and reprint it in c.1869 using an inverted format, for which he got recognition and a medal from the Society of Chemists. Embarrassed by their earlier short sightedness, the SoC did not recognise Newlands until 1887, although by then the damage had been done and Mendeleev was popularly, if incorrectly, credited. Ephebi (talk) 12:13, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

• Relax, Newlands wasn't. He made many mistakes (putting together B/Al/Ti/Zn, or C/Si/Cr/In), and tried to expanded his octaves, true at that point for the lighter elements, to all elements. And why did he try to fix music and chemistry? That's not serious... Even through Mendeleev may be influenced by this English dude, and Newlands was the one to think first of periodicity, he wasn't the father of the table we know. I know that Mendeleev wrote something like (who knows when?), "In his law I can see the start for the search of the periodic law"--R8R Gtrs (talk) 12:50, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

As you appear unaware of 'the dude's efforts, this extract from the ODNB may answer your question: "Newlands earned a place in chemical history by his partial anticipation of D. I. Mendeleyev's periodic law... Newlands noticed that elements with similar properties occurred at regular intervals. In 1864 he asserted that ‘the eighth element starting from a given one is a kind of repetition of the first, like the eighth note of an octave in music’ (Chemical News, 20 Aug 1864, 94), and in 1865 he formalized this relationship as the ‘law of octaves’. His proposal met with opposition and even ridicule" (Very little changes, it appears!) In his letter published in Chemical News 25 Aug 1865 Newlands clearly differentiates between Ti & Zn, so I don't know what your source claiming his mistakes is using. The only mistake that I am aware of is his identification of "Di" (didymium, later separated into praseodymium (Pr) and neodymium (Nd)). There was a discussion of the two gentlemen's contribution in Chemistry Review in 2003, where Newlands was described as the "almost originator", and the first person to use atomic numbers. That is not to diminish the Russian dude's contribution, but to put it into an accurate context of an incremental advance. Ephebi (talk) 14:47, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

OK, I don't mean Newlands was unimportant :) He has certainly found its place in periodic table history, but he wasn't its father. Even when you cite ODNB, it says the law is Mendeleev's. I might've mistaken, I won't argue. Just note that Mendeleev created another table, which got famous later (his predictions on properties of Sc, Ga and Ge played their role), which may be influenced by Newlands' one. Are we OK with it now?--R8R Gtrs (talk) 15:28, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

note that Mendeleev's Periodic law is different from Periodic table. A 'periodic' table originated from Newlands in 1865, but in a somewhat different format. Mendeleev developed the table into the modern form that we know & love. At the risk of sounding pedantic (which I hate!), whether I'm OK with it is neither here nor there 8^} ... The question is, is it represented accurately on the page?

To be encyclopaedic, we need to be precise on these terms. IMHO the page is currently slightly inaccurate or misleading on a couple of paragraphs which need rewording;

• "... its invention is generally credited to Russian chemist Dmitri Mendeleev, who developed a version of the now-familiar tabular presentation" - the table came first from Newlands, which Mendeleev modified it. The "generally credited" statement is based on the Chemical Society's publications, which they corrected 130 years ago. Perhaps change to "often credited" and add "after an earlier version by JAR Newlands"
• "One of the strengths of Mendeleev's original presentation was the prediction of the properties of then-undiscovered elements expected to fill noticeable gaps" - Newlands' Law of octaves had already achieved this. Re-word to say the "Newlands-Medeleev tables"

WP is not a forum for revisionism, but in this instance the Chemistry Society took 20 years to revise its credits. It seems its taking 130 years for WP to catch up ;-) Ephebi (talk) 16:56, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Against. I won't even argue. Keep in mind WP:V — if even Newlands did more than Mendeleev, the table is still cited as Mendeleev's, not as Newlands—Mendeleev's or any other way. An argue about nothing...--R8R Gtrs (talk) 17:03, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Atomic Mass vs. Atomic Weight

I believe you are referring to atomic weight in the Arrangement paragraph.

In printed tables, each element is usually listed with its element symbol and atomic number; many versions of the table also list the element's atomic mass and other information, such as its abbreviated electron configuration, electronegativity and most common valence numbers.

Atomic mass refers to a single atom of one isotope and would have integer values while atomic weights, which are seen on the PT below the element identity, tend to have non-integer values because they are the weighted average of all the naturally occurring isotopes.

--Libertas81 (talk) 04:38, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

I do believe the thing Libertas81 is referring to, which has values which are integers, is more properly (and less confusingly) called the "mass number," and is simply the number of nucleons in the nucleus for any particular nuclide. I have seen "atomic mass" values given many, many times as long decimals. In my copy of the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics (old, admittedly; '96-'97), the CRC tries to please both sides in the long "table of the isotopes" section by labeling a column (with long-decimal values below) as "atomic mass or weight." I would be quite curious to know how this column is labeled in the newest edition of the Handbook -- does anyone have a copy handy (no pun intended)? RobertAustin (talk) 16:21, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

This "atomic weight" thing chemists do (all the time) drives many physicists crazy, but it's not going to change any time soon. "Mass" is clearly the appropriate word to use, for it is the amount of matter in an atom that is being described, not the pull of gravity on that atom. Chemists should know better; perhaps they are sticking with the incorrect term merely to try to annoy the physicists. The historical rivalry between people in these two fields is an interesting one, perhaps even one worthy of a Wikipedia article itself. RobertAustin (talk) 16:10, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Helium not primordial?

What definition makes Uranium "primordial" but Helium "from decay"? If Helium isn't primordial then everything except Hydrogen is created "from decay". Also, why is Plutonium "synthetic" rather than "from decay" as Plutonium states that it can be found in nature. OrangeDog (talk • edits) 01:52, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

It depends on what you mean by primordial. Nearly all helium on Earth comes from decay. Helium in the universe mostly comes from the Big Bang, and secondly from stellar fusion. --Itub (talk) 13:03, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

That's my question. What definition of primordial makes the table as shown consistent? And why not have the usual radioactivity information instead? OrangeDog (talk • edits) 13:54, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

. I agree that pu should be labeled from decay pu-244 is found in trace amounts. --Weetoddid (talk) 06:32, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

It is clearly ridiculous to have Pu labeled "primordial," and He not labeled with the same word. A major problem here, though, is that EVERY version of the periodic table I have ever seen shows Pu as a "synthetic" element, even though we have known for years that it does occur in nature, in trace amounts. The reasons for this are historical -- Pu was first detected after being synthesized in a nuclear reaction, and the fact that it does occur in nature was discovered much, much later. It seems that this problem of inconsistency exists throughout the field of chemistry -- it's not just a Wikipedia problem at all. RobertAustin (talk) 16:05, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Why does it say that plutonium is a primmordial? I'm pretty sure that's wrong. This is not an edit request. --**Najezeko**:) 06:08, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Didactics: shell filling

re: "As another example, both carbon and lead have four electrons in their outer shell orbitals."

Editorial comments:
1. As another example of what? Give the concept a name or phrase, and repeat the name or phrase here.
2. So what? Derive the logical consequences. "Therefore, ..... " Say what you would expect to find, observe.
3. Compare and contrast: my goodness, 4 electrons and one is the basis of carbon chemistry, the whole industrial world of organic chemistry, and the other falls with a thud like lead. The reader is left curious as can be, but without answers.

People smarter than I might add, "Despite the similarities/principles illustrated in (2), the two elements behave so differently chemically speaking because . . . " Look, my Ph.D. is in psychology but, gentlemen and ladies, there has to be a teachable point about chemical bond formation hidden here. Have fun! Reveal it!
Thank you for all achieved so far,
--jerry Jerry-va (talk) 12:35, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Re-write

This article assumes too much of the readers scientific knowledge and should be written where terms are better explained. I doubt it is of much use to a 13 year old and a 13-18 year old is most likely user to read this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jacobsdad (talk • contribs) 01:35, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree. Wikipedia articles should, in my opinion, be written for an intelligent and educated adult audience, NOT for the average 13-year-old. It is not hard at all, with a Google search, to find more kid-friendly sites to explain the periodic table to younger folks, in an age-appropriate manner. RobertAustin (talk) 15:57, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

We should write for everyone. Not shy away from technical/advanaced material and not dumb it down, but also try to include some accessible basics for topics that non-advanced readers might want. The Periodic Table really is an important concept that even non-advanced students will encounter in school, and it really does have a lot of easily accessible information related to it. OTOH, we also have a whole "Wikipedia Simple", which has a simple:Periodic table article, that is specifically targeted towards less advanced readers. A shame IMO that so few readers know about Simple: any page that has a companion there is accessible via a link in the "languages" sidebar. DMacks (talk) 16:16, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I can see why we're losing ground in any progress towards getting the inquiring readers to consider the merits of the Janet periodic Table. The article mentions it in the text, but doesn't refer to it in the See Also section, where most people go to get additional information. And when you start talking about atomic numbers 119 and 120, the difference in the formats of the two tables becomes significant.WFPM (talk) 19:28, 28 July 2009 (UTC)Note that the Basic English periodic table article makes even less mention as to alternative periodic tables.

And I notice that even this more sophisticated presentation of the table there is no rationale given for the relative lengths of the successive periods, which involve the numerical sequence 2, 8, 8, 18, 18, 32, and 32 in the standard table versus the sequence 2, 2, 8, 8, 18, 18, 32, and 32, in the alternate Janet table. This might be of assistance to people trying to understand the relative merits of these tables.WFPM (talk) 18:29, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Copernicum?

Wasn't this announced by IUPAC recently? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.101.68.60 (talk) 07:10, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Not as the official name yet. I'm sure IUPAC will announce it on their website. DMacks (talk) 07:29, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Here are some relevant links -- http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2009-07/element-112-named-copernicum and http://www.newser.com/story/64554/after-13-years-new-element-gets-name-copernicum.html -- apparently, this name is now in the popular press for element 112, now called "ununbium," but the IUPAC has a six-month waiting period for discussion, now begun, before the name becomes becomes official. My recommendation is that "copernicum" be mentioned only on talk pages, and not in actual articles, until after the IUPAC has made their official ruling. It won't be THAT long. Also, if you look at the two articles I provided links for, you'll note that there is a bit of confusion of the exact spelling of the new name, AND no mention of its symbol, either. My money is on "Cp," but that is nothing more than a personal guess. Not article-worthy information just yet, but definitely something to keep an eye on. RobertAustin (talk) 15:53, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Yup, there was already discussion and consensus among the WP chemistry not to jump ahead of official IUPAC naming in the articles related to this element. DMacks (talk) 16:09, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Need to edit your article better

Under the Periods section someone has mischieviously entered the text "watchin porn is hawt ". Possibly true but a bit off-topic. Nucdesigner1 (talk) 02:32, 18 September 2009 (UTC)Nucdesigner1

Yes, that happened less than half an hour before you read it, and it was taken out shortly thereafter. We get anonymous vandals like that all the time, and if it starts happening too frequently the article can be semi-protected against such. --Glenn L (talk) 06:48, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Invalid statement

"The elements ununbium, ununtrium, ununquadium, etc. are elements that have been discovered, but so far have not received a trivial name yet."

This statement is wrong. As the entry on "trivial names" explains, a trivial name is a commonly used name for something which has an alternative "correct" name. For example, "tiger" is a common or trivial name for "panthera tigris". Or "tartaric acid" is a common or trivial name for what a scientist should properly call 2,3-dihydroxysuccinic acid as a "correct" name.

The proper names of the chemical elements ( hydrogen, helium , plutonium etc etc ) are their proper and correct names. They are not common or trivial nicknames.Eregli bob (talk) 03:39, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

This statement can be updated. As the entry on "ununbium" explains, the element "ununbium" has a name of copernicium.

Liquid Color

I apologize if this seems not that important, but using the color green for liquids makes it really hard to see which elements are liquids - I can barely see that Mercury is a liquid. Can another color be chosen? Can you use a bolder font for the numbers so they stand out?--66.60.79.20 (talk) 17:14, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

I second the motion; I was just about to suggest bold numbering myself. -- Jeffryfisher (talk) 23:49, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

System and representation

This article is mostly about the Periodic System - an abstract pattern of relationships between chemical elements, of which tables (arranged in rows and columns) are one form of representation, parallel with other forms of representation such as spirals or concentric circles. This was generally understood by Jan van Spronsen and Edward Mazurs who published reviews to celebrate the centenary of Mendeleev's table: The Periodic System of chemical elements: the first hundred years and Graphic representations of the Periodic System during one hundred years respectively. Chemists seem to have forgotten this distinction and now write as if tables - or the Table - were the only representation. In fact spirals are more faithful to the nature of the system, since the sequence of elements is continuous and must be chopped into sections to fit into a table. So can we please have an article about the System, with pointers to separate articles about tables (in the plural), spirals etcetera? (Pjstewart (talk) 11:10, 30 October 2009 (UTC))

The standard Periodic Table is obviously the transient result of an effort by interested parties to create a "method out of madness" organization of informational material about matter. It was created by a Chemist, and is currently controlled by IUPAC, and accordingly is not much concerned with the physical processes whereby the matter was created and accumulated in the first place. And it is hoped that as more is learned about the physical properties of of the basic particles of matter, the table can be modified to accommodate the organized inclusion of that information into the organization of the table.

Radioactivity

Under the "Structure of the Periodic Table" section, the article says that all elements after 83 (bismuth), starting with 84 (polonium) are radioactive. Isn't bismuth technically radioactive? Also, a bit below that, it says that plutonium is found as a radioactive decay product, while it is actually found in trace quantities in nature. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.15.210.42 (talk) 19:36, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but bismuth is not considered "radioactive" in practice. As to plutonium, "found in nature" and "as a product of radioactive decay processes" are not contradictory because radioactive decay processes occur in nature and do not imply "synthetic". Materialscientist (talk) 00:38, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Regarding plutonium, I think the point was that at least some of the plutonium found in nature can be considered primordial and not the product of decay. --Itub (talk) 18:19, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

That was my point with plutonium; it is found in trace primordial quantities. Elium2 (talk) 20:44, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

...and now I'm here precisely because I am surprised to see Pu labeled primordial when it isn't. With its longest half-life being 24,000 years, there have been 160,000 half-lives in Earth's 4 billion years. Quick, what's the inverse of 2^160000? I think it's greater than the number of atoms in the universe, so Pu is not primordial. Pu is at best a natural decay/reaction product. Am I allowed to edit it myself, or should I leave that to the next person who agrees? -- Jeffryfisher (talk) 23:28, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Incidentally, when I started this section, I did not have a user account! Also, I did not notice that there was a very similar section above. Elium2 (talk) 19:53, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

re Bismuth: It's unstable, but with a half life many times the age of the universe, its radioactivity is virtually undetectable (and proven only relatively recently, as described in the Bismuth article). See Bismuth -- Jeffryfisher (talk) 23:28, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

I disagree with your plutonium claim. Plutonium-244 is the most stable isotope of plutonium, with a half-life of about 80 million years (~1/55 Earth's age). And 2^55 is much smaller than the Avogadro constant, so of each 244 g of Pu-244 originally on Earth, thousands of atoms still exist today.--Roentgenium111 (talk) 22:45, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Dice games involving the Periodic Table?

Does anybody know of any dice games involving the periodic table, and moving pieces around, and buying, securing, or contesting elements as in Monopoly?

The main article would be improved if there were a paragraph or two on games involving the periodic table. Dexter Nextnumber (talk) 05:34, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

This isn't the place for that. Look on the internet, there are many other pages that can help you out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.210.60.185 (talk) 18:17, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

A more interesting idea for you to try is to get some models of atomic nuclides that are magnetized and then put them together so they make a composite structure that you think might resemble the structure of the nucleus of the atomic nuclei of the elements of the periodic table. You might be surprised at what kind of structure that you come up with. You might look at the models at Talk:Nuclear model for one set of examples.WFPM (talk) 02:29, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

If you find such games, then start a separate Wiki article for them. Then maybe you could convince folks to put a further reading link on this or a disambiguation page -- Jeffryfisher (talk) 23:34, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

lanthanoid(s) and actinoid(s) vs. lanthanide(s) and actinide(s)

Please see this this community discussion on whether or not we should be using the IUPAC nomenclature (lanthanoid or actinoid) vs. common usage (lanthanide or actinide). Polyamorph (talk) 08:41, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't see much (any) discussion at that link, and the -ide vs -oid choices seem pretty random at the moment. —JLundell talk  17:50, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Random where? Materialscientist (talk) 22:15, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Color Blindness

If anyone cares, the table is kind of difficult for people with color blindness to read. The "transition metals" and "other metals" are hard to distinguish and "other nonmetals" and "halogens" are hard to distinguish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.243.184.248 (talk) 03:04, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Sadly, no one cares. This table has been in use for a number of decades, so it's a little late to worry about that.

Why don't you find a color-blind chemist or physicist and ask how he/she/it deals with it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.171.176.158 (talk) 14:49, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Also, I think for people who are color blind, they might not be able to distinguish between liquids, and gases. 71.217.65.69 (talk) 21:34, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Mnemonic

How about adding a few? They can be helpful for people.Mango bush (talk) 19:04, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

I can't help you with a Mnemonic. But might notice that as the numbers of elements in the periods expand, they expand in accordance with a pattern. For instance in the Janet table, the period expansion sequence pattern is 2, 2, 8, 8, 18, 18, 32, 32, and that can be better understood by expanding it to 2, 2, ((2+4)+2), ((2+4)+2), ((2+4+4)+(2+4)+2), ((2+4+4)+(2+4)+2), ((2+4+4+4)+(2+4+4)+(2+4)+2), and ((2+4+4+4)+(2+4+4)+(2+4)+2),. Then after you learn the names of the elements, you can then associate them in each series by starting with the first 2 and then associating the remainder in sequences of 2 plus the appropriate additional number of groups of 4, and then a last 2, which your mind pretty quickly learns to associate.WFPM (talk) 19:02, 25 April 2010 (UTC) If you try it with just the atomic numbers, you'll find that it's easy to understand and memorize the pattern, and the hard part is associating the names with the numbers.WFPM (talk) 19:38, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Table

It says Element 117 hasn't been discovered yet when in reality it has just been. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.97.41.86 (talk) 21:12, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

There was a switch to a version dating back to February. This was done after a discussion about the actinides and lantanides place in the PSE and the IUPAC PSE. It took some time and therefore the february version did not contain element 117 info.--Stone (talk) 22:54, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

This is a chronic problem with Wikipedia authors and editors: they aspergersly refuse to use phrases such as "as of such and such a date..." which leads, for example, to hard-coding things such as celebrities' ages, number of known elements, etc.

BTW, what does Porn Star Experience have to do with chemistry and physics? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.171.176.158 (talk) 14:56, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 98.26.57.143, 4 June 2010

below the table, in the key it states that the states of the elements are at standard temperature and pressure, as they should be but goes on to say that standard is 0 C and 1ATM. it should say 25 C, or room temperature. 98.26.57.143 (talk) 23:40, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

There are two definitions of standard conditions for temperature and pressure, 0°C and 20°C. This is just a convention and it does not affect the table because no element changes its state between 0 and 20°C. (Even if it did, my eye can't really distinguish the supposed change in the color of atomic number :) Materialscientist (talk) 23:54, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Not strictly true. You are confusing boiling point and evaporation. Bromine, for example, easily evaporates at room temperature at sea level. Leave a beaker of bromine sitting around and eventually it will all be gone. Change of state. Doesn't affect your basic point though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.171.176.158 (talk) 15:15, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Naturally Occurring.

Human beings are naturally occurring and so are their products, we say honey is naturally occurring, why are we any more special than bees.

By stating that several elements are not naturally occurring, you infer that Human endeavours are supernatural, they are not, this article needs editing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.11.153.79 (talk) 16:52, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Hydrogen

Hydrogen has been classified as an alkaline earth metal. Here you have it as other non-metals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.110.80.51 (talk) 22:03, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Our Alkali metal article notes in its intro "Hydrogen, although nominally also a member of Group 1, very rarely exhibits behavior comparable to the alkali metals" (that makes sense...not metallic at normal conditions, etc.). I can't think why it would be considered an alkaline earth metal (Group 2) at all--got a good reference to support this idea? The IUPAC Red Book (page 51) states "The following collective names for like elements are IUPAC-approved: alkali metals (Li, Na, K, Rb, Cs, Fr), alkaline earth metals (Be, Mg, Ca, Sr, Ba, Ra)" and does not include H in any specifically-named group. DMacks (talk) 22:13, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

---

What about alkali earth metals vs. alkaline earth metals? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wd930 (talk • contribs) 00:52, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

As DMacks pointed out, we're following the convention of IUPAC-approved element category names in the Red Book. IUPAC follows names in common usage, and these names are often unusual for obscure historical reasons. Look at this: Yazoo City was named after the Yazoo River which was named after the Yazoo tribe, so Yazoo means...well...nobody knows. Compared to that level of confusion, the difference between alkali and alkaline is pretty minor! Flying Jazz (talk) 09:27, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Citations

{{Edit semi-protected}}

I do not know where to cite the references. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wd930 (talk • contribs) 23:02, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

See WP:CITE Mhiji (talk) 23:52, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

WP:Citing sources, or WP:CITE didn't help me.Wd930PeriodicTable (Talk) (talk) 02:27, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

What exactly don't you understand? Those policy pages are quite extensive and tell you everything you need to know so you have to be more specific about what you don't understand for us to help you. Polyamorph (talk) 09:27, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 122.164.119.137, 12 January 2011

{{edit semi-protected}}

The Periodic Table Picture is outdated... Element 119 has been discovered! Pls update image. 122.164.119.137 (talk) 16:21, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Wow! I will edit it and add it!!!! IF I get a credible source for the claim. --Stone (talk) 16:31, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. →♠Gƒoley↔Four♣← 16:52, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Alternative versions

The first line of the Alternative Versions Subject Heading could be modified to read

Other alternative periodic tables exist, including a Dynamic Interactive Table. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.79.21.53 (talk) 18:36, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

No, we don't need to link a non-notable non-example of them in an inappropriate location. DMacks (talk) 20:22, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Phosphorus, not Phosphorous

In the first section, showing the Table itself, the name of Element 15 should be "Phosphorus", in title and link, to match the page to which it links. "Phosphorous" is an adjective. Consult a reputable dictionary, such as Chambers' or the Concise Oxford, or even Webster. 94.30.84.71 (talk) 14:13, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

In the table in the section titled "Structure", phosphorus appears correctly. In fact, I cannot find use of the term "phosphorous" anywhere in the article. Can you please be more specific about where you think there is a problem? ChemNerd (talk) 14:21, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Americium is also found in nature

I am aware that most sources state that the number of elements found in nature is 94 (those with atomic numbers 1-94). However, several other sources raise that number to 95, and include americium (atomic number 95) to those elements found in nature. I hold a copy of "HUTCHINSON GALLUP Info 95" (Hellicon Publishing Ltd., UK, 1994) that states: "Of the [109] known elements, 95 are known to occur in nature (those with atomic numbers 1-95)" (page 459). Another source that includes americium to the elements that are found in nature is "The Free Dictionary by Farlex" that states: "[Americium] occurs in nature in minute quantities in pitchblende and other uranium ores, where it is produced from the decay of neutron-bombarded plutonium, and is the element with the highest atomic number that occurs in nature". This source can be found online here: http://encyclopedia.farlex.com/Americium-239 The above quote is reproduced in several other web sites, eg.: http://www.talktalk.co.uk/reference/encyclopaedia/hutchinson/m0009901.html Perhaps the confusion arises from two facts: 1) Quantities of americium (and curium) have recently been found in nature as a by-product of the operation of nuclear reactors and nuclear explosions (ref: http://www.hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q650.html). This, however, doesn't mean that americium cannot be found as a naturally occurring element as well. 2) Americium was first synthesized in 1944. The fact that it was synthesized before it was discovered as a naturally occurring element should not exclude it from the list of the elements that are found in nature. In fact, technetium and promethium are included in the list, even though they both have been artificially produced before they were found in nature. I would like to have some feedback on the topic. CostaDax (talk) 18:12, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I can't access your "offline" sources, but the online one seems in order. So if you're certain of it, just be bold and change the table (Periodic table (standard)) to make Am's "natural occurrence" be "From decay". (Or maybe discuss it on the americium article's talk page as well.)--Roentgenium111 (talk) 15:35, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, atomic weights put in parrenthasies for 43, 61, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 93, 94, 95, 96, etc.

Tc (99) Pm (145) Po (210) At (210) Rn (222) Fr (223) Ra (226) Ac (227) Th (232) Pa (231) U (238) Np (237) Pu (244) Am (243) Cm (247) Bk (247) Cf (251) Es (252) Fm (257) Md (258) No (259) Lr (262) Rf (261) Db (262) Sg (263) Bh (262) Hs (265) Mt (266) Ds (269) Rg (272) Cn (277) Uut (278) Uuq (285) Uup (287) Uuh (293) Uus (294) Uuo (294)

Also, the atomic weights of the stable elements aren't the weights of the most common isotopes.

Isotopes

Ununoctium
293Uuo
294Uuo

Ununseptium

291Uus
292Uus
293Uus
294Uus

Ununhexium

289Uuh
290Uuh
291Uuh
292Uuh
293Uuh

Ununpentium

287Uup
288Uup
289Uup
290Uup
291Uup

Ununquadium

285Uuq
286Uuq
287Uuq
288Uuq
289Uuq

Ununtrium

278Uut
282Uut
283Uut
284Uut
285Uut
286Uut
287Uut

Copernicium

277Cn
278Cn
279Cn
280Cn
281Cn
282Cn
283Cn
284Cn
285Cn

This last part is where most of the differences come in.

Isotopes in italics are the most stable isotopes.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.217.65.69 (talk) 06:23, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm confused...what does this have to do with the Periodic table article? DMacks (talk) 22:06, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Needs complete rewrite?

This page seems poorly structured and is surely incomprehensible to most people. The periodic table is a key part of understanding chemistry and is one of the earliest things one is taught, yet this article would baffle any schoolchild (and me, and I'm 42!). I've read much clearer explanations of the periodic table, and the page seems non-standard for Wikipedia. And no, I couldn't rewrite it as I don't know enough about it! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.14.246.85 (talk) 08:53, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Could you give us some specific clues about what is confusing here, or else (even if you can't write it) some ideas about how other clearer explanations are organized? For example, do you think the current article focuses too much on some topic that is too technical, or has too much technical or historical-origin material (vs modern application) too early, or...? DMacks (talk) 12:38, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

• And could we do away with references and pictures to Mendeleev? He only wrote part of the table in its current format, others discovered periodicity before him, such as Newlands (although only credited some years later). Ephebi (talk) 12:18, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Strange redirect

Why does "list of groups" redirect here? I came here expecting to find a list of mathematical groups. I've never heard the periodic table being referred to as the list of groups; is it a historical name? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.6.96.22 (talk) 06:36, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

The reason is that once upon a time, in the days of Good King Jimmy (^_^), an anon IP created an article at "list of groups". However it was spotted by a registered editor, who redirected it to "periodic table" because the IP's article was about the periodic table's groups: alkali metals, alkaline earth metals, and so on. Of course, this redirect is quite illogical. I'll change the target. Lanthanum-138 (talk) 12:51, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Oops, there doesn't seem to be a suitable target for your case. Lanthanum-138 (talk) 15:30, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Caption Typo

caption reads: "The table is shown to be almost circular even THROUGH most commonly it is not drawn so." instead of: "The table is shown to be almost circular even THOUGH most commonly it is not drawn so." --68.54.201.151 (talk) 03:39, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Fixed, thanks. Materialscientist (talk) 03:52, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Points on history missing

Here's the list of post-discovery points of periodic table history:

• Original table contained 12 periods. Who and when first contracted the number by placing all elements 57-71 (not named yet) into the same cell?

• Who and when contracted the short-periodic table to the long-periodic one (i.e. the one used now)? Something more is needed than current mentioning.

• Point that before WWII, thorium was placed under hafnium, and uranium after tungsten, as these (not named that way then) actinides are chemically similar to the respective elements and not showing a clear trend, making "lanthanide" series unique. Element 102, for example, should be eka-polonium, and not a "actinide".

• This is the neatest point: about 1944, when neptunium and plutonium were produced and studied, the were shown to be similar to uranium, and something we may now call "uranide" concept was promoted: elements 92-106, occupying a single cell under tungsten, like "lanthanide" one, while element 107 should be what we now call bohrium.

• When was "actinide" (elements 89-103) concept first promoted? Who invented the lanthanide and actinide words? It was some Soviet scientist in 1948, but this is worth mentioning

• (optional one) Why instead of original lanthanides and actinides, La and Ac started to be placed in the corresponding cells (I remember some 1950s tables, where the cell was divided in halves: first one for La and the second one for elements 58-71)? How did Lu and 103 (later Lr) started to appear there instead? What's the situation now?

• Finally, it could be sweet to mention that some recent elements may break the existing rules on periodicity, such as 114 and 118, as well as future superactinides, you may see that in extended periodic table.--R8R Gtrs (talk) 19:48, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

I also think that the history section could be improved by mentioning some things:

• The lanthanides or rare earth elements and the expansion of the periodic table, with an unkown number of elements. There the final fixture of the table by the measurments of Henry Moseley could be helpful

• The missing nobel gas elements which were discovered in a short time and although the periodic table had to be redrawn they fit into the concept.

• The change in drawing the periodic table introduced I think by Glenn T. Seaborg.

--Stone (talk) 21:21, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

• Also, before I forget: it could be sweet to mention that 18-elements long period table is uncommon is Russia and the CIS. Groups are still most commonly called like VIA for group 16 (or sometimes group 6). Structure of table used there can be seen here.

• Maybe it's also worth mentioning metals weren't considered chemical elements before Lavoisier's work?--R8R Gtrs (talk) 22:13, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

• The French version of this article has some more sweet points on the history of the PT. Lanthanum-138 (talk) 06:16, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Typo to fix

 Done

It's only a minor typo, but I am not permitted to fix it myself, so... Here's something for someone who can.

"Substitution of atomic numbers, once understood, gave a definitive, integer-based sequence for the elements, still used today even a new synthetic elements are produced and studied." [emphasis added]

That "a" should be "as". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bentsm (talk • contribs) June 6, 2011 (UTC)

Fixed. TJRC (talk) 22:33, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

*typo to fix*?

I wonder if there is a typo in the Blocks section. The d-block comprises groups 3 through 12 in IUPAC (or 3A through 8A in American group numbering) and contains all of the transition metals. Should this be 3B through 2B, not 3A through 8A as described for the p block in the preceding sentence? Lrunge (talk) 09:27, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

arrangement of periodic table

why not just arrange the elements into a list starting with the lightest anf ending with the heaviest — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.125.252.155 (talk) 08:17, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

There are certainly lists like that. But they mask many important trends of other properties of the elements. Hence, this layout helps see these periodic patterns. DMacks (talk) 08:24, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Another typo

As before, it's a fairly straightforward typo, but I'm not allowed to fix it.

So, for whoever can fix it:

"Since the elements can be uniquely sequenced by atomic number, conventionally from lowest to hightest, ..." (emphasis added)

(I doubt I even need to say it, but "hightest" should be "highest".)

BentSm 19:51, 26 October 2011 (UTC)