Jump to content

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Donetsk People's Republic

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
< Wikipedia:Articles for deletion

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Alexsau1991 (talk | contribs) at 22:13, 7 April 2014. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Donetsk People's Republic

Donetsk People's Republic (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

This article is true story. Today, a people's government proclaimed this "Republic". It is not proclaimed by any official authorities, and it happened today. Wikipedia is WP:NOTNEWS, and an article of this kind is very much premature. There are already a number of articles on the current crisis between Ukraine and Russia, and this would fit better in any of them. Contrary to other unrecognized state, this so-called Republic has not been proclaimed by any relevant authority. I'd say it takes more than 100 activists deciding to "proclaim a republic" for Wikipedia to do an article on it. This is an encyclopedia, not a news service. Right now Wikipedia is being used by the same activists to try to make the so called "republic" appear to be something more than it is. That is notWP:NPOV Jeppiz (talk) 14:16, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep Keep this article , this is important , We will see new country born.
  • Keep Keep article about the important new possibly emerging country – that is as populous as Ireland, among others – that has been declared by pretty much the same way as the new government in Kiev or as the new government of the U.S. in 1776. Will we delete the pages for Ukraine or the United States of America, too? Secession simply works like that. It's likely that the independence of the new country cannot be easily attacked by the Maidan regime because the Kremlin would probably quickly send forces if the safety of the separatists were threatened, so it's not reasonable to make a bet that this republic will quickly go away. The people who want to delete the article are clearly doing so with a skewed propagandist purpose and they want prevent others from seeing that millions of people in the Donetsk region doesn't really like the new self-appointed government in Kiev. It's not a task for Wikipedia to selectively suppress the information in this way. --Lumidek (talk) 17:14, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep keep article until the events are clarified. Whether or not it is recognized by any other country is irrelevant. There are other articles for Transdniestria, South Ossetia, Republic of Crimea, so why not this one as well? So we could keep the article, unless the event are proven to be a hoax. Cmoibenlepro (talk) 14:20, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy Keep. Our task as armchair historians, is not to criticise or analyze geo-political situations. I will remind you that multiple pages exist on contentious topics, many of which a majority of people contest the veracity of (the Adra Massacre for example, which has been debunked here still operates as a page). We need to overcome our biases and operate under the wikipedia guidelines which allow for and encourage any pages which represent the reality of the world around us. I believe all other points for keeping the page have been brought up by the prior comments. Klopsikon (talk) 15:02, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is one huge difference. In all the cases you mention (Transdniestria, South Ossetia, Republic of Crimea), local authorities have proclaimed the independence. That's not the case in Donetsk, it's only been "proclaimed" by a small number of activists, not by any relevant political body. If some friends and I suddenly decided to proclaim a "republic" of our own, it wouldn't be relevant for Wikipedia either.Jeppiz (talk) 14:25, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not true; The assembly (taken by protesters, just like in the case of Maidan protesters who overtook Ukraine government) proclaimed independence. Many similarities to the case of Kosovo, and Crimea also. Referendum follows. Membrane-biologist (talk) 14:40, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Look at the BBC news, it has a full report - just like Maidan protesters who overtook government of Ukraine (by disposing, illegally, president) - protesters took local assembly. In that country, thugs seem to rule all over the place. But, thugs or not, they are both notable for wikipedia purposes (as are terrorists etc), and their UNRECOGNISED state should not be deleted, as it is a fact of life (like Mafia is, or Maidan overtake of Ukraine) Membrane-biologist (talk) 15:18, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Since events developed very fast regarding the Crimea Crisis, I think that we should keep this article until the authorities declare (or not) independence. Reliable sources appear to say that this is real, and could result in another potential conflict with Russia. But by the way, there is an article for the Principality of Sealand. Would you like to delete that article too?Cmoibenlepro (talk) 14:30, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy keep Clearly, this is not just a random act, but a decison with far reaching consequences. The declaration of independence is the same as in the case of Kosovo, i.e. without referendum, and a new, completely unrecognized so far, entity has been formed. Referendum has been called (same as in Crimea - but in Kosovo even referendum was not called, despite of what Obama misleadingly said), and development is relevant. It is also reported by BBC [1]. Membrane-biologist (talk) 14:28, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy keep As per what Membrane-biologist said above. I have nothing to add to his words. --Sundostund (talk) 14:31, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Right, so I see the people using Wikipedia for propaganda purposes have found their way here. Expected. But if we ignore your propaganda talk about "misleading Obama" and "Kosovo" and instead focus on the facts? Once again, Kosovo, Crimea and many other areas have had their independence declared by local authorities. That is not the case here. The only people who have "declared" this republic is a small group of protesters. And nobody is saying we should not report it. We should, in the relevant article on the situation in Ukraine. We should not let Wikipedia be used as a propaganda tool to make a fictional "republic" seem more than it is.Jeppiz (talk) 14:33, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "We should not let Wikipedia be used as a propaganda tool to make a fictional "republic" seem more than it is." Who are you to decide what is propaganda and what is not? Is the statement: "Russia is a great nation." propaganda? This republic, whatever it is, official/non-official, real/fictional should not be interpreted as simply a piece of Russian Agitprop. Political views do not play into the ground level fact! The fact is that these men have control of the government. They have proclaimed a republic and asked for Russian troops. The deletion of the article should only occur if this massive statement of willpower and force would have no regional or international consequences. It should only be deleted if it is meaningless and has no relevance nor pertains to reality. However uncomfortable the reality may be, this event has happened and we need to record it into the annals of history!Klopsikon (talk) 15:10, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, they definitely do not have control of the governement. All they have control of is the building in which the parliament meets. The governement is not a building and the actual members of the government are not under control of the group that has done this declaration. This article is factually false in several different ways. --92.229.36.131 (talk) 16:51, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. The Donetsk People's Republic had been proclaimed by a group of activists. Therefore it is a unrecognized entity, like there have been many before. It is not important if we like it (I don't). Electionworld(talk) 14:36, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Quite true, it's not important if we like it or not. It's important if it is correct or not. You say there "have been many before". Could you link to them, please? I don't know of a single entity proclaimed by a small group of activists and within the borders of an indenpendent country. Which other entities do you mean?Jeppiz (talk) 14:42, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Let me remind you, that after Maidan protesters were killed by forces and only after that Ukrainian Parliament made decisions against President, not proclaimed independence! And protesters was not the only one who made those decisions! Ukrainian Parliament working as authorized assembly. So there is a huge difference of situations and you just mixed facts with fake! --Ipadm (talk) 15:15, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • There was no 'violent overaking' in Kiev, measures were passed by parliament - are you saying the entirety of parliament was illegitimate? In this case, they declared every elected official dismissed and did so with no authority. Get your facts straight. --Львівське (говорити) 14:56, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • You mean by MPs like this [2]. Seems legit, just like the Maidan snipers that fired in the mass. Overthrow of Ukraine president was NOT legal, and he is still legally a president of Ukraine - the current protesters in Donetsk are as legitimate as violent MPs who ILLEGALLY took rule, in breach of EU-Ukraine deal. Membrane-biologist (talk) 15:18, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I provided arguments, not empty rhetoric. Look at the video clip, and claim that it is not violence, if you can! Conspiracy or not (possible false flag operation has been reported by intercept telephone calls that were ADMITTED as authentic), there is no argument against the fact that Maidan protests lead to overthrow of legitimate president in breach of EU-Ukraine agreement. So, Ukraine "revolution" is legitimate as much so as the one in Donetsk - and both should be reported here according to facts, not censored (or shot down, if that is more to your taste!) Membrane-biologist (talk) 15:34, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy delete. So every time about 50 guys get together to declare a republic of their own, we should create a wiki article? Not even Russia recognizes this and it is not even 5 hours since they declared it. Wikipedia is not a news site and it is not meant to use twisted wording like i.e. "the new administration", which his just harebrained crap. The Donetsk City Council and Donetsk Regional Parliament are still the legal entities in the region and administrative offices still follow their orders. IF in a week or so this Republic still exists and has established truly some semblance of authority there needs to be an article, but as it is now it is just hyping a few peoples declaration, which are not supported by any facts on the ground. noclador (talk) 14:46, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is no speedy delete - the article is in voting for deletion already (but there is speedy keep though, in the case of nonsense proposals for deletion).
  • Keep, but re-evaluate in two weeks. It's clearly too soon to say what will come of this, but deleting it is as premature as keeping it for the same reason. Let's give this article some time to accumulate, and it if doesn't work out in the longer term we can revisit this nomination. CodeCat (talk) 14:57, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: We need to have an article on Donetsk protests, so this would be a good candidate to redirect to 2014 Donetsk protests to cover all the events since Yanukovych fled. As for an article on this "people's republic" by itself, its not even notable yet by micronation standards, but it is notable as a part of all the Donetsk protests. 100 people breaking into a government building on a Sunday and declaring independence does not make a nation.--Milowent • hasspoken 15:00, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the World was many states and republics, and most of the short-lived republics was destroyed, for ex. the Mura Republic and his 6 days. The Mura Republic was also unable "state." Nevertheless, there was such a state. So keep this article. Doncsecztalk 15:02, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I believe you responded to wrong message, anyway, given that most of the votes for keeping this article comes from unregistered or newly created accounts, I hope that nobody is actually going to take them seriously. It's sad that wikipedia is now being used as a tool of Russian propaganda. I have nothing against having these information here, but on proper pages. Should the Donetsk Republic ever be established and recognized by trustworthy authorities, there would be a reason to have an article about it, but its mere existence is not just doubtful, it's also too fresh to be a part of reliable encyclopedia. This belongs to wikinews maybe, but not wikipedia. Petrb (talk) 15:27, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is plainly false - most votes for keep are NOT from new accounts. Besides, AfD is not a VOTE, but the wegiht of arguments is what counts. Also, I am sure there will be many more discussion points in the next 7 days. Membrane-biologist (talk) 15:41, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. There are many good reasons stated above, I don't want to repeat them all, but as long as you want wikipedia to be reliable encyclopedia, which contains verified and trustworthy information, you must not create articles about some "subjects", that were self proclaimed by group of individuals with no recognition whatsoever. Petrb (talk) 15:10, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Proclamation of independence IS verifiable, verified and notable (reported by BBC) - so you are wrong. Membrane-biologist (talk) 15:29, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, for now it is valid since there was a proclamation of independence and given that more than 90% of population support it. If it fails, the article can always be renamed to failed republic proposition.213.27.190.94 (talk) 15:12, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Not a real political entity. Proclaimed by a group of protesters, the so-called republic have no defined borders, administration, and does not exercise any real authority.--KoberTalk 15:16, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
What is "real political entity"? In controversial cases, like Palestine, Crimea, Northern Cyprus, Kosovo, Taiwan, Somaliland etc. - we precisely have limited or no recognition. Wikipedia should NOT decide what is real state or not, but use well established notability criteria. BBC and all other news services are reporting this as a new (unrecognized) state, that leads to potentially very serious developments. That is whats relevant for existence of this article. Membrane-biologist (talk) 15:29, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You are absolutely correct, wikipedia shouldn't decide on this. It's an encyclopedia that should contain verified information. Any self-proclaimed (by few individuals) Republic that is old just few hours can't be easily verified nor trustworthy and doesn't belong here. Once it's clear what is going on there, then it would be unlikely criticized by so many people. Post this on wikinews, not here. Petrb (talk) 15:35, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The same was said on the day of the creation of the Crimean Republic Page and yet look now: with time there comes an appreciation for the fact that history can take certain turns and pursue certain avenues which do not appeal to our personal viewpoints. I implore the people still deciding to set aside their anti-Putin bias and consider what the impact of deleting this article will be if this entity comes into existence? I say wait before hastily erasing a piece of historical narrative. In a week's time it should be decided upon, not now when events are still too fresh. Klopsikon (talk) 15:50, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Funny you should ram your ill-formed opinion to the front of the page. Let us define propaganda as per Propaganda: "Propaganda is a form of communication aimed towards influencing the attitude of a population toward some cause or position." The article does not influence anybody. All it states is the objective events that took place in Donetsk. Literally nothing else! If there is a part which is propaganda then talk about it on the talk page before deleting it with the assent of others. The article does not claim that the Republic is a real entity! All it says is that it has been proclaimed. The article does not lend legitimacy it simply chronicles events occuring in Donetsk for future generations to be able to read back on. Klopsikon (talk) 15:38, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - I'm usually all for including information on self-declared de facto states, but this isn't a de facto state -- it's literally 100-200 rioters holed up inside a couple of government offices under police siege. It exercises no real control. -Kudzu1 (talk) 15:30, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that 'de facto' should be the bare minimum line to draw for article creation. Right now they have de facto control of the floor of a building.--Львівське (говорити) 15:31, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
According wikipedia policies, verifiability and notability are the main criteria. We are not to decide who has de facto control - outside references are all that count. BBC news reported about the new self-proclaimed republic; that is what counts here - sources. And they clearly make this new state both notable and verifiable. Membrane-biologist (talk) 15:38, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia is is also not a newspaper. I see people saying that this will be long lasting or that this will gain notability, those are WP:CRYSTAL arguments. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 19:40, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment There is obvious bias of some Ukrainian voters here, who even go so far to misrepresent people who give here arguments for keep, that are at this point a clear majority. AfD is NOT a Vote, which is what many users here seem to forget. Membrane-biologist (talk) 15:50, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ukraine-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 15:32, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Russia-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 15:32, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 15:32, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - Nonsense, otherwise every second occupied house in Europe can get it's unrecognized state article. For news please use Wikinews. Wikipedia is not a live ticker. --Kolja21 (talk) 16:02, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete No such entity exists. A group of parliament squatters have no power to declare anything, let alone a republic. This is a joke. Wikipedia should not be abused for propaganda or information warfare. An article about the event of the seizure of the parliament should be substituted, in which this declaration can be mentioned. --92.229.36.131 (talk) 16:14, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep for now, consider a merge later on once we have a decent idea of how much impact this will have/is having. Coverage is significant, and the potential for growth is considerable. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 16:17, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think it would be misleading; the name just implies a declaration of independence on behalf of Donetsk, it doesn't imply the level of support received by the declaration. Granted, it's obviously important to clarify who declared independence in the opening paragraph of the article. Orser67 (talk) 16:41, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy keep - The argument that Львівське gives (not being recognized) is not valid, as Somaliland is not recognized by a single country in the world and it has its own article and several articles related to it. So, no double POV-driven double standards or cheap demagogy, we are not talking about a squat...--HCPUNXKID 16:22, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Somaliland has de facto control so your point is moot. These guys don't have control of anything but a room. You can't just declare things and make it so like Michael Scott --Львівське (говорити) 18:07, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy keep - Independence has been declared and it's notable with far reaching consequences, so this is a real thing. It may or may not last long, but we have many articles about short-lived unrecognized states here and this one is no different. Feon {t/c} 16:43, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy keep - all independent states are notable objects worth of historical study, regardless of their perceived illegitimacy or size.XavierGreen (talk)
  • Keep for now With the current propaganda support from Russian news agencies, it is borderline notable for now. Might become very notable depending on developments. Wait a few weeks before afd-ing, at least. Thue (talk) 17:05, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Once again, it might be notable if even a local authority had proclaimed it. Or if it would have any de facto control. Or if it would have any recognition. It has none of that. This is quite simply a small group of people occupying a building (a building! not a town) and saying they are a republic. The event is notable, and should be covered, but having a country-like article and calling it by this name is clearly out of touch with reality. Once again, a small group of people occupy a building, with no recognition and no control. That's all. Jeppiz (talk) 17:29, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • In case it's relevant at all, look at the infobox for Republic of Ireland. It says it was declared in 1916 (during the Easter Rising), but wasn't actually recognised until much later. The Easter Rising itself was a failed revolution and the people that rose up "lost" (many of the leaders were executed). So let's imagine... if Ireland had remained British since then until now, then would we have taken this declaration of independence seriously, or would we have dismissed it as "just a bunch of rebels occupying the post office", and would we have deleted the Republic of Ireland article for such a reason? My point here is that the significance of the event depends in part on history yet to be written. Maybe this is just a flash in the pan, or maybe this is the start of a years-long process of political upturning much as in Ireland a century ago. I don't think we can tell at this point. CodeCat (talk) 17:37, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedily delete as a nonsense, promotes crime against Ukrainian statehood. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 17:50, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • As Thue and others have said, there's a decent likelihood that there'll be enough coverage to justify having an article on this. But it's really too early to say one way or another, and probably will be for several weeks at least. In the meantime, most of the arguments in favor of deletion don't really strike me as being arguments against the existence of this content, but as arguments against this presentation of this content. Which would be a reason to edit/move/merge/etc. the article, rather than to delete it, none of which require this AFD. (And which this AFD would probably actively interfere with.) Keep for now, and even if this turns out to be nothing it'll probably want to stay as a redirect to another relevant page. lifebaka++ 18:07, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per WP:NOTNEWS and WP:SOAP. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:13, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy keep - This event will have historical importance regardless of the political outcome. Magic5ball (talk) 20:08, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • information Note: They have declared a Peoples Republic of Kharkov now - in this case, they don't even control the building, they made the declaration from the lobby. This stuff isn't notable or legitimate or in any sense real. Just rantings of a few hundred rioters. link. Wait until we can establish notability or de facto control of some sort. Suggestion: Have all "declared" republics in a single article on the event or call it "Eastern Ukraine separatism movement 2014, or something. --Львівське (говорити) 18:36, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep and rename or merge As above by говорити this could be merged with other articles on declarations of independence by small groups in Eastern Ukraine which have not been internationally recognised. However the content is clearly notable and whichever way things go will remain significant in the future history of the Ukraine and are a significant event in the current crisis. I see no reason for deletion of this article as even a failed coup is a significant event, the title may need to be changed but the content is fine. Tracland (talk) 18:42, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The fact that the Ukrainian military is getting involved to overcome the "terrorist insurgency" still makes it a notable event. A failed act of terrorism with military involvement would and has previously qualified for notability on wikipedia. I'm not saying the title of the article is correct or that a significant amount of editing isn't required but that will be done. The article's content is still notable. Tracland (talk) 19:57, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • We have a source above that is saying that the protesters do not even control the whole building, unless there is evidence that the protesters are in firm control we should not be making articles about countries. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 19:31, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
There are no any crisis in Donetsk. But that is happening? Some impostors announced themselves a new authority. But authority of what? These unknown people have no any power or influence in the city of Donetsk. They are jast like clowns and they make for media only. Some of them are from russian FSS. But they will go off of Ukraine soon. So all this story is a Much Ado About Nothing. Blast furnace chip worker (talk) 21:02, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - Not a real declaration of independence. All that declaration is a fake only wich has been made by some people who are unknown for locals of Donetsk city and for locals of Donetsk region. This declaration just for surface effect. All this story is a much ado about nothing. Blast furnace chip worker (talk) 20:14, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Now there is more reason to speedy-delete this article. The Ukrainian forces have disarmed and removed the pro-Russian usurpers. This imaginary thing that they called "Donetsk People's Republic" or whatever, will never exist! Hans Kamp (talk) 20:54, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete or Move - the reliable sources don't report on the legitimacy of this unilateral declaration as if it's a new state - as Wikipedia currently does. It should be documented as an event in progress, ie something along the lines of 'Eastern Ukraine separatism movement 2014' as previously suggested. Alexsau1991 (talk) 22:13, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Donetsk_People%27s_Republic&oldid=603217383"