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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Sirswindon (talk | contribs) at 03:01, 19 April 2015 (In agreement.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Royal Statistical Society - unreliable source?

User Modernist had deleted the link to an article from Royal Statistical Society magazine, calling it an unreliable source

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abstract_expressionism&action=historysubmit&diff=438457789&oldid=438456006

So what is reliable? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.105.39.179 (talk) 19:23, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Its also spam...Modernist (talk) 19:30, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What is spam? Any scholarly article which dissagrees with your opinion? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.105.39.179 (talk) 00:25, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Actually your website and blog is spam...Modernist (talk) 00:37, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That is not my website, but belongs to Royal Statistical Society. In addition it is not a blog, but a magazine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.105.39.179 (talk) 04:42, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

They have too many advertisements and pleas for comments - blog like, and ads for subscribers, but most importantly your article is garbage - its about chimps, elephants, and other animals and kids who paint like the abstract expressionists - oh wow! Some people (67%) even think that the major abstract expressionists are better than the chimps and the elephants - WOW!!!!...Modernist (talk) 04:51, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The only valid objection to linking a blog is that anyone can post anything he likes in his blog. And this is an edited magazine. The objection that articles allow comments and that this somehow makes it a blog can not be taken seriously. Regarding ads - almost all popular websites have them. And those sites already linked in the Wikipedia article do have ads. I picked two at random: Ref. 17 has Google ads, Ref. 19 advertises exhibition, which asks £10 for admission.

The article that I linked is discussed widely in the media (see, for example, http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/26882/ ) and therefore meets Wikipedia criteria for importance. So far you did not offer any logical objections to its conclusions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.105.39.179 (talk) 06:12, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There is a lot of repetition in this article (i.e. mentioning several times that some think Abstract Expressionism was "nihilistic.") To say that deKooning's Women paintings were "grotesque" is subjective and judgmental, and not consistent with the artist's vision of that body of work. This may have been the opinion of some critics, however as it is written in this article, the description is not attributed to a specific critic, making it sound like a general comment to be taken as fact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gravesadam (talk • contribs) 05:38, 24 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Question

"As an example, in 1958, Mark Tobey "became the first American painter since Whistler (1895) to win top prize at the Venice Biennale. New York's two leading art magazines were not interested. Arts mentioned the historic event only in a news column and ARTnews (Managing editor: Thomas B. Hess) ignored it completely. The New York Times and Life printed feature articles."[9]"


Footnote 9 is not specified with a page number and in my opinion is incorrect. I read the whole catalogue and could not find the quotation by Seitz! Who made this common or where is the quotation orginally from?

ASH257 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.55.197.162 (talk) 12:12, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

File:SMITH CUBI VI.JPG Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:SMITH CUBI VI.JPG, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests March 2012
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This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 01:07, 27 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My reverted edits

User Modernist has reverted several of my edits and warned me for "verging on vandalism".

First of all, I tried to address a complaint that was raised even on this talk page: "There is a lot of repetition in this article (i.e. mentioning several times that some think Abstract Expressionism was "nihilistic.")" The phrase "Additionally, it has an image of being rebellious, anarchic, highly idiosyncratic and, some feel, nihilistic." was/is in the article three times - I have kept only in the first instance, second paragraph. Also, there was another repetition that I removed, containing the phrase "Pollock's energetic action paintings, with their "busy" feel, are different both technically and aesthetically..." - in the second instance, it continued with a few phrases on de Kooning that were not in the first instance, so I merged them where they belong. My changes were reverted (Modernist said that he didn't understood what was the subject of my edit).

Second - there is a list of "major artists" and one of "other artists". I have split the first list in two parts - and why? "Significant artists whose mature work defined American Abstract Expressionism:" is a very arguable phrase for a list that contains very many artists (almost by definition, an art movement can only have a few "major artists", a few "peaks"), list in which I have found many artists who are too little-known and loosely associated with the movement to "define" it, as well as one artist that is not at all associated with abstract expressionism (Kinetic artist Alexander Calder). So I have made a smaller sub-section with a few significant artists - maybe one or two might be considered arguable (like James Brooks, though he did contributed to action painting alongside Pollock, who lived in the same area with him), but otherwise most of them did trigger some influence (like Helen Frankenthaler). Second big list is with "Significant artists whose mature work relates to American Abstract Expressionism:". I have moved Jean Paul Riopelle from the first list to this one, as French and Francophone abstract expressionism is referred to as "tachisme" or "art informel". And yes, I have noted that those artists are related to American Abstract Expressionism because they either are European AbEx painters or American painters of related art movements (Post-painterly Abstraction, Pop Art, etc.) who were derived from AbEx. User Modernist has reverted these changes as well and written: "Your edits ruined a perfectly good list", which I find subjective. Please consider my suggestions, as I didn't want to make "vandalism" and simply wanted to improve this page. There are many other suggestions that I would have, but I will first obtain consensus on them here. YigruZeltil (talk) 19:33, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Every change you made was a mess - I suggest that you make no further changes until you learn how...Modernist (talk) 19:56, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
To sub divide the first list into first generation, second generation, most important, least significant, most press, highest prices doesn't cut it, too subjective. The list is fine as is. The second list is far more eclectic; has tangential figures like Stella who comes later and Olitski etc. is more open to inclusion...Modernist (talk) 20:18, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I still don't think "the list is fine as is". Sure, they may not be an "objective" criteria for most important or least significant, but at least I think words like "significant" and "major" should be removed. I disagree with anyone thinking that someone like Robert de Niro Sr. (who is hardly abstract, being even more figurative than de Kooning, who at least has done abstract paintings in his later career) or even Alma Thomas helped define abstract expressionism.YigruZeltil (talk) 07:31, 18 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Also, I still think the phrase "Additionally, it has an image of being rebellious, anarchic, highly idiosyncratic and, some feel, nihilistic" should not be repeated three times in this article. (Same goes for "Pollock's energetic action paintings...")YigruZeltil (talk) 07:36, 18 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your comments, Alma Thomas, de Niro and some of the other lesser known abstract expressionists are important and correct inclusions - the period accomodated all kinds of painters - some of whom were barely known - like Alma Thomas, Albert Kotin, and others, but were still part of the major abstract expressionist movement; just as Robert de Niro Sr., Elaine de Kooning, Robert Goodnough, Grace Hartigan and others who also incorporated imagery into their paintings were also. Riopelle had an enormous impact on Joan Mitchell, Sam Francis, Norman Bluhm, Michael Goldberg and the NY art world in general which is why he is on that list as well. I removed one of the phrases you objected to...Modernist (talk) 17:12, 18 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, Mitchell was Riopelle's wife and the others you mentioned were his friends. I don't deny that Alma Thomas or Robert Goodnough do have some value in spite of being lesser known or critically acclaimed, but I still hold the belief that them or Robert de Niro Sr., for that matter, can't be as important as Rothko or Pollock... but, then again, one can hardly come with real arguments (besides something like "number of Google hits", which tends to be irrelevant in most cases).YigruZeltil (talk) 19:33, 18 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That's why the long list. The most famous, and the most sought after are for the most part included with images. No question that at this point Gorky, Rothko, Newman, Still, Pollock, de Kooning, Kline, Motherwell, Guston, Hofmann, Gottlieb and Tobey, Brooks, Marca Relli, Tworkov, Tomlin, Reinhardt, Pousette Dart, Baziotes and Stamos were the core of the first generation. But Krasner, Hartigan, Mitchell, Resnick, Frankenthaler and the rest were all closely in step. This article is very interesting - Ninth Street Show - a 1951 group show that covered the very broad ground...Modernist (talk) 19:52, 18 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Color Field

I'm confused by the inclusion of Color Field painting in this article. The article on Color Field says that it was a separate style from Abstract Expressionism, although, of course, related to it. To me, the goals of the color field painters seemed quite different from those of the abstract expressionists. Also, the lack of sources in this article make me hesitate to trust the information presented here. Plus, several of the sources in the Color Field article (although not all of them are functional) indicate that Color Field painting was created in response to the qualities of Abstract Expressionism. So, what I'm really getting to: should Color Field be included in this article? This article even says multiple times, of Rothko's paintings, "which are not what would usually be called expressionist and which Rothko denied were abstract". Helixer (hábleme) 23:56, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

During the 1950s the abstract expressionists were divided into two separate styles: Action painting (coined by Harold Rosenberg) referencing among others Willem de Kooning, Franz Kline, Jack Tworkov, James Brooks, and aspects of both Robert Motherwell and Jackson Pollock and the style termed Color field (coined by Clement Greenberg) and roughly referencing among others Clifford Still, Mark Rothko, Barnett Newman, Adolph Gottlieb and aspects of both Jackson Pollock, and Robert Motherwell. The next generation of painters - coined by Greenberg as Post-painterly abstraction are also referred as the Color field painters as are other painters from the early to the late 1960s referenced that way...Modernist (talk) 02:58, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Consequences final sentence/source

The writing style of the final stanza is problematic. The point seems to be that the City of New York assumed a role of prominence in the art world as a result of many Abstract Expressionist painters being based close by. Further, that later styles such as Pop Art arose, flourished, or somehow benefited from that event. If this is the point, it is not made clear by this paragraph and there is no transition from previous paragraphs indicating a new sub topic.

A MOMA exhibition announcement should not be considered a considered a credible source. The information in the release may be accurate but it fails to demonstrate any rigor whatsoever in researching a credible secondary or tertiary source for this information.

Please consider allowing changes to this section to occur. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sunupoernomo (talk • contribs) 15:31, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Images

Visual art needs to be seen - stop deleting those images use your brain. Per WP:IAR, WP:UCS - this is an encyclopedia - the gallery is the best and most efficient way to display those paintings and sculpture...Modernist (talk) 15:08, 8 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

NFC policy declares that galleries of nonfree images are generally unacceptable. No exception is made in the policy for "visual art". And stop violating WP:CIVIL. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 15:17, 8 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The policy needs changing...Modernist (talk) 15:35, 8 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That opinion plainly doesn't justify your defying it. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 15:41, 8 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Common sense indicates the policy is outdated, and predates by several years the building of this encyclopedia. The only way things change is when editors change things. Takes guts and common sense...Modernist (talk) 15:52, 8 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Recent additions

We don't feature every collector's image of abstract expressionism or every cute photograph. This is an historical article in an encyclopedia not a fan magazine. Seems like pure promotion...Modernist (talk) 11:22, 26 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A contemporary response to the Italian Renaissance is not required; nor is a contemporary response to cubism required, nor is a contemporary response to pop art required, let alone a contemporary response to Abstract expressionism...Modernist (talk) 11:53, 26 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No, that is incorrect. Annie Liebowitz is an established artist with her own Wikipage. She is entitled to express her own viewpoint and interpretation of Kline and other artists of abstract expressionism in her own medium. The references to her as a "spam" artist are pejorative and degrading to her as an established artist. As they degrade her as a living artist they are against Wikipedia policy for WP:BLP and should be curtailed. OilandTempura (talk) 13:29, 27 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
So put Annie's photo on Annie's article. Annie Liebowitz is a wonderful photographer, and Steve Martin is a great entertainer, neither one is an Abstract expressionist...Modernist (talk) 13:38, 27 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with Modernist and Freshacconci, both of whom reverted these edits. It's a trivial addition. The link to an auction website, which only shows the image, doesn't substantiate its being included here. To verify its place in the article, several reliable sources would need to cite the photograph's importance as a response to abstract expressionism. Additionally, to justify the addition of a new heading, multiple well-sourced examples of cultural responses are necessary--it's not explained why Leibowitz's image is particularly notable, or merits its own section. Nobody is taking issue with Liebowitz's notability; the insistence on mentioning her photo in this context raises concerns. JNW (talk) 13:55, 27 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Merging "Abstract art" into this page?

Has there been discussion of merging the article Abstract Art with this page? They are both good and scholarly pages in their own way, but they do seem redundant. I would suggest retaining this one, the name Abstract expressionism being more specific than Abstract art.ElijahBosley (talk ☞) 18:52, 20 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely not. Abstract expressionism is an art movement, referencing the 1940s through the 1970s; while Abstract art is a rubric covering a century long and longer conglomeration of dozens of different art movements...Modernist (talk) 19:39, 20 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your view. Please note that the merger tag is required on the target page, as well as the page to be merged as per WP:merge. When the discussion is complete it is removed.ElijahBosley (talk ☞) 19:47, 20 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Then--if I understand these comments correctly--Abstract art is the genus, and Abstract expressionism is the species? That is, abstract art embraces a great many movements and abstract expressionism is but one of them? Put another way, is there any abstract expressionism that is not abstract art?ElijahBosley (talk ☞) 20:01, 20 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, attractive paintings both, I appreciate your bringing them to my attention. Thanks also to Epeefleche for weighing in. But--de Kooning venturing into somewhat more figurative work means it's no longer abstract? Seems to me that Picasso's Cubism for example, was both figurative to some degree and considered abstract. So I am not sure if I am yet clear that there can be abstract expressionism that is not abstract art? Instead it looks like there is "pure" abstraction (say Jasper Johns paint squiggles) and somehwat less absolutely pure (Mondrian, definable geometric shapes) and less abstract still (Picasso's Guernica, a protest narrative)--yet all of these still fall under the large rubric Abstract art? Not to be difficult, just trying to get the categories right. ElijahBosley (talk ☞) 21:00, 20 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It gets convoluted somewhat, as there is often not a great deal of agreement in these sorts of things. But "abstract" is best understood as "abstracted", i.e. moving away from representation. Terms like non-representational are often used for works that feature no recognizable imagery. And keep in mind abstract expressionism, although the dominant term, is not the only term. Others prefer action painting or the New York School. Abstract art is basically a generic term for any number of art movements. Abstract expressionism is used for what was happening mainly in New York in the 1940 and '50s. freshacconci talk to me 21:34, 20 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Your fringe opinion is not how we write articles; see WP:OR and WP:FRINGE...Modernist (talk) 21:17, 20 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Freshacconci, very helpful. As to Modernist, who has been editing since 2006 and certainly knows better than to remove merge tags, I will simply say--best wishes for a nice weekend.ElijahBosley (talk ☞) 21:54, 20 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • A latecomer to this discussion, but per: Modernist, the two terms are not synonymous. Merging these would be rather like merging Landscape Painting with the Hudson River School. JNW (talk) 00:33, 22 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

General comment

Much of this article lacks RS refs. And at the same time, I notice a great number of opinions presented in the material that lacks RS refs. Frankly, while well-written, it reads as though someone took their (or someone else's) paper and without sources plugged it in here. This by no means refers to all of the article, but it does refer to much of it. I think that the article would benefit from editors looking at that, and addressing it. Thanks. --Epeefleche (talk) 07:59, 26 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In section 7.2 of the Article, who actually belongs there?

Someone should examined the list of so-called artists whose mature work is supposed to be related to the American Abstract Expressionist movement (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstract_expressionism) (Note 7.2 Other artist) and ask if the following really belong in that section: William Brice, Alexander Bogen (was neither significant nor American), Charles Ragland Bunnell, Edward Corbett, Lynne Mapp Drexler, Jean Dubuffet, Sam Gilliam, Joseph Glasco, John D. Graham, Stephen Greene, Gino Hollander, Frances Kornbluth, André Lanskoy, Michael Loew, John Levee, Herbert Matter (he was not an Abstract Expressionist, he was a photographer and graphic designer), Seong Moy, Jan Müller, Pat Passlof, Earle M. Pilgrim, Aaron Siskind (a photographer who had little to do with the Abstract Expressionist movement), Ary Stillman, and Cora Kelley Ward. Sirswindon (talk) 20:54, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

While there are possibly a couple of questionable inclusions, most do belong. These all are directly related through their work, and/or influences, and/or their intimate contacts and certainly do belong: John D. Graham, Stephen Greene, Edward Corbett, Jean Dubuffet, Aaron Siskind, Sam Gilliam, Pat Passlof, Herbert Matter, Joseph Glasco, Cora Kelley Ward, Earle M. Pilgrim, Frances Kornbluth, Michael Loew, Jan Müller and John Levee. Matter and his wife Mercedes were both important members of the NY School; many of Siskind's photographs were directly influenced and are reminiscent of the work of his action painter friends...Modernist (talk) 23:18, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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