Talk:Bad Nenndorf

Internment Camp

Some contributors of the German and English page do not read the sources adequately. In no one of the sources (Guardien nor Die Zeit) the internment camp of Bad Nenndorf was named concentration camp. This is absolutely wrong and POV. --KarlV 14:33, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

We would like you to discuss first. Violating the 3rr-rule is an abslolutly no-go here. I like Burke's Peerage 15:10, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

KarlV, I am not sure what your particular concerns are. You have claimed inaccuracy and POV, and have chosen to frame your concern in terms that could be interpreted as a personal attack on fellow editors, but you have given no justification for your claims. This and your 3RR violation make you less likely to be taken seriously.

As for the content of your edit, I can only emphasise once again that the prison at Bad Nenndorf meets all the formal criteria of a concentration camp, even if the sources do not use that particular word: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Concentration_camp

Kind regards, Samsara (talk • contribs) 18:23, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

First of all I think that I am complying with the formal criteria of the article Internment camp. And your mentioned article is, instead of that I have mentioned without good sources (see e.g. definition). Secondly, what is that, there are good sources, no one of them is talking about concentration camps but because of a definition, which IMHO seems to be POV, you want to tell me, that, even the sources do not use that particular word, it meets formal criterias? Criterias which are not proved? So, you want to tell me, that we do not need sources? Third - no, I do not want to bring in an error in this article, but, there was a German User (who was now suspended because of vandalism, plese be so kind an inform yourself), who wants that the British Internment camp is called concentration camp, which is simply wrong (see the sources and the formal criteria of the article internment camp). See what happened with the German article and the User. So I want to bring an error out of this artcle and nothing else. And you?--KarlV 19:53, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

From the very article you referenced: "The term concentration camp lost its original relatively innocent meaning after Nazi concentration camps were discovered, and has ever since been understood to refer to a place of mistreatment, starvation, forced labour, and murder. The expression since then has only been used in this extremely pejorative sense; no government or organization has used it to describe its own facilities, using instead terms such as internment camp, resettlement camp, detention facility, etc." As mistreatment, starvation etc. took place at this location, it very well fits the definition of concentration camp. Also, it gives the reason that official sources would not use that term, (no government will use it, even if it is correct). This is quite clear. pschemp | talk 20:09, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Also, if you believe that Wiktionary has POV issues, you should bring that up there, not here. Regards, Samsara (talk • contribs) 20:36, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia should use the most common term the sources use, and I only see "internment" in the sources listed. Does anyone have a source that calls Bad Nenndorf a "concentration" camp? HGB 21:07, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Um, no government calls anything a concentration camp, even when it fits the definition. Its too much a charged word. Should we bow to their cowardice and POV? What I'm saying here, is that we shouldn't be replicating the bias of sources. That does no good for Wikipedia. pschemp | talk 21:11, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

"As one minister of the day wrote, as few people as possible should be aware that British authorities had treated prisoners "in a manner reminiscent of the German concentration camps"". Now that is a direct quote from one of the sources, and although the facts are hedged upon, calling it a concentration camp is exactly what that minister did. pschemp | talk 21:26, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

There are plenty of camps explicitly called "concentration camps" but no one, so far as I can find in any reliable source, actually calls Bad Nenndorf a "concentration" camp. This link you mention which only says Bad Nenndorf is "reminiscent of the German concentration camps", it's really pushing WP:NOR to try to label it as such, and it's not in Wikipedia's scope to engage in novel research to rename things other than what they're commonly called. I suggest this quote you mention (if it qualifies as a reliable source) be quoted in the text, but the heading should be what everyone commonly calls it, "internment" camp. HGB 21:53, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

that's from one of the sources already listed, not anything I just made up or is unreliable. It isn't OR to call something what it is. matching something with its definition is not OR either. How does this not fit the definition of concentration camp?pschemp | talk 22:04, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

The more I look at this, and I was trying to find a compromise way of even using this quote calling it "reminiscent" of German concentrations camps, it's just unusable. The only person even making a comparison is some vague unnamed "minister of the day". And yes, it is OR to rename something from it's common usage to something no one else explicitly calls it. I'm changing it back to "internment" unless someone can find something better to back up the "concentration" camp label. And since you're an admin who stepped in to block another editor on this very issue, you probably shouldn't be involving yourself in the debate and making reverts yourself like you did to me. I don't mind working with you for a solution, but you're mixing roles here. HGB 22:15, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

You might want to get your facts straight about my actions. pschemp | talk 04:18, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Yep, you're right, it was Samsara not you. I had the two of you confused, I apologize. Admins are discouraged from blocking other editors on pages in which they are editing so it would have been better had s/he found a neutral admin who hadn't been involved here to block the editor violating 3rr. Samsara may want to take note of that for future reference. HGB 05:38, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

By your reasoning, only the trolls would be allowed to edit. Admins don't resign from their privileges as editors.

My feeling is still that what the sources call it is irrelevant (in fact, you're onto a definite loser there as most of the sources are in German); more relevant is what was going on there, and what is the appropriate way to refer to the activities. As such, I propose to call it interrogation camp, since that was the original purpose of the facility, even if it was subsequently deviated from (in that known innocents were "interrogated" - what for, one cannot imagine). In fact, I would question calling it a "camp", since it has nothing camp-like. Camp sounds makeshift, but this was not even in a purpose-built building. More of an interrogation centre, perhaps. - Samsara (talk • contribs) 22:41, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Here, The Guardian, the same source that also calls it an internment camp, calls it a "Torture camp." Why not use that, as that is what it was? This also shows that there is no one specific name, for even this source has used two. And again ABC news calls it a "Torture camp". And here again the Hindustan news calls it a torture camp. This would indicate that not everyone commonly calls it an "internment camp", not even the original source of the information. The purpose of this camp was not storage of people, it was torture. Therefore, let's speak what is true and call a spade a spade and use "Torture camp", as that is the essence of the project. pschemp | talk 05:12, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Excellent. That's all I was asking for is sources that actually back up the terms we use here. Well done, I completely support your edit. HGB 05:38, 1 August 2006 (UTC)