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    Telstra, Australia IP vandalism

    The last month or so, there has been a long list of IPs, all belonging to Telstra, Australia, vandalising the Israel/Palestine articles. Look at User talk:McSly, Modi'in-Maccabim-Re'ut, Talk:Judea, Talk:State of Palestine, Talk:German Colony, Jerusalem, Palestinian territories. He reminded me of my old friend, due to edits like this, but, AFAIK, "my old friend" is still in the US.

    However, I wonder, is it possible to block a range of Telstra-Ips? Or would that catch too many innocents? (Btw, he is active as I type) Huldra (talk) 13:45, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Block the entire ISP. If they have a problem, it should remain their problem, not ours. Any decent editor can register an account. Likewise Vodafone DE. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:50, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Another death-threat against me here from the same; please rev-del and protect. Iow: please do full JarlaxleArtemis-routine when dealing with this guy, Huldra (talk) 13:54, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Hey guys, you *really* have to refuse them the possibility to edit their own talk-page; to avoid death and rape-threaths, Huldra (talk) 13:59, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks User:Gilliam, for that. (Perhaps rev-del the threats?) Also, the same IP was discussed here a couple of days ago: see here. --Huldra (talk) 14:11, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Revdelled. --NeilN talk to me 15:05, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Thanks, User:NeilN. I have made a list of (some) of the Telstra socks, used in July/ August this year (not a full list):








    The IPs with @@ after them have issued Grawp-like threats, mostly rev-delled. Feel free to add more IPs, as you find them, Huldra (talk) 16:27, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Looks like any rangeblock has a lot of collateral, apart from 2-5, which are caught by 60.230.0.0/17. Page protection is the only real solution here from that point of view. Mdann52 (talk) 17:13, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    In a case like this that's too easy: we'd have to protect every page in the project where they might show up or where they might follow someone. I don't know what the limit is, what too much collateral damage is, but not rangeblocking also has a lot of collateral damage, and I prefer our own editors not fall in that category. Rangeblock away, I say. Drmies (talk) 22:24, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Unless you would also advocate rangeblocking large sections of Comcast in the US or BT in the UK, this is a really stupid idea. Only in death does duty end (talk) 22:38, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    We've had to do it before to stem death threats. Not to mention that this is pretty much the only way to slow him to any appreciable degree. Even then, his abuse of open proxies is quite legendary (which is why he's showing up on BT and Telstra). —Jeremy v^_^v Bori! 22:58, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    There is an alternative. Contact Telstra abuse and tell them that we are considering a range block because of the actions of one Telstra user. They may very well block the user on their end to protect their other users from collateral damage if we do it on our end. --Guy Macon (talk) 03:04, 27 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    If it's an open proxy (and considering who we're discussing it almost certainly is), then it's not exactly on Telstra, but rather on who owns the TOR node/anonymising service/compromised server. —Jeremy v^_^v Bori! 21:13, 27 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    If it is my old friend, (who, for sure, knows how to make use of TOR), then why does he *only* appear on Telstra IPs? I´m making some enquiries (off-line), in the mean time, I´ll ask all admins to be very vigilant when it comes to Telstra IPs: remember to block their user-page access too. And could some admin please rev-del 124.181.101.68 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) death threats? Thanks in advance, Huldra (talk) 21:27, 27 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Oddy enough I have done this before when I was a Sysadmin, unless Telstra's policies have changed they will file such a request in the nearest bin. It took a court order for me to get them to prevent one of their script-kiddie customers attempting to DDOS one of my domains. The main problem with rangeblocking large sections of Telstra however is that in many parts of Australia it really is the only provider. There is no alternative. Unlike the example above which affected Houston - a city with many other options. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:07, 27 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    So logged in editors can still edit, and IP editors get a notice that they can either log in or complain to Telstra for allowing one of their users to abuse Wikipedia, forcing Wikipedia to block IP edits from Telstra. Not ideal, but not a disaster for the Australian users either. One could also contact a few news outlets in Australia and let them know what is happening. If they choose to run a story or two on this, Telstra is likely to become a lot more cooperative. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:59, 27 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Just to note that some of these are proxies, not all are in Australia by the looks of things. While blocking Australia may seem a good solution, I don't think this will be productive - partly as there are ways to easily get round this. Now, I can tell you millions of people will be caught up in any rangeblock with this - and it is incredibly hard to tell who is and isn't vandals when it comes to people like ACC dealing with requests like this. Rangeblock is the easy solution, just not the best one here. Depending on what is being inserted, a note to the ISP or police (I haven't seen the edits, but the police are likely to be interested if they are death threats) is likely to be the only solution, unless we want large swaiths of Australia waking up and wondering why they can't fix one typo or suchlike, leading to the problem building up elsewhere. Mdann52 (talk) 19:05, 28 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    All the above IPs with @@ at the end have rev-delled rape or death threats, mostly death threats. I have no idea as to how Australian police react to this (I am not in Australia), Huldra (talk) 21:39, 28 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I note here that if Telstra is not one of the biggest ISPs in Australia, it would have to be up there. Rangeblocking the entire ISP will result in a whole load of collateral damage. A complaint should probably be made to Telstra first, although I'm not at all confident it'll be actioned. If it's not, perhaps a message in the rangeblock stating that Telstra failed to respond to death threats originating from their network? Nothing like a bit of media coverage to encourage an episode of corporate responsibility. Lankiveil (speak to me) 11:52, 29 August 2015 (UTC).[reply]
    Range blocking Telstra would definitely attract media coverage in Australia, and probably overseas given how large an ISP it is (it's by far the largest telecommunications company in Australia). Telstra has an online form to report abuse here, though it may not be applicable to this case. Nick-D (talk) 00:14, 30 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    As these IPs are making threats of harm, the Wikimedia Foundation should also be informed, and will hopefully be able to help with a response - the procedure is explained at Wikipedia:Responding to threats of harm. Nick-D (talk) 00:20, 30 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    These IPs seem to be from Victoria, and one appears to be from the town of Warrugal. --AussieLegend (✉) 10:52, 30 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Ok, thanks for the info. Also, I believe there is an Australian Wikimedia chapter? I would assume they were closer to dealing with Telstra than WMF? (Yeah, I know: this is a "hot potato", and everyone´s reaction is to pass it on the the next person. Sigh...) Huldra (talk) 22:26, 30 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Wikimedia Chapters don't handle issues like this (they're essentially clubs of like-minded people) - the WMF is a better point of contact, and seems to take issues like this seriously. I'd suggest that you contact them if you haven't already done so. Nick-D (talk) 11:42, 31 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I contacted Philippe B, by email last week, as he had been dealing with "my old friend" earlier. However, that was obviously not good timing, so I forwarded it through the "standard channels" earlier today. Huldra (talk) 20:19, 31 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I did a bit of poking about and came across |this site. While it deals with some nasty business with regards to anti- vs pro-vaccination groups not relevant here, but what was relevant was the inclusion of part of the Criminal Code Act 1995. Quick summary of this is that it is an offence in Australia to use a "carriage service", such as phone, mail, but also including electronic services, to make threats to kill or threats to cause serious harm. You could turn such evidence as you have to police in that particular state. Cybercrime reporting is somewhat in its infancy in Australia but police do respond to it. Blackmane (talk) 03:00, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Extra comment The IP's largely originate from around Melbourne, Victoria with one geolocating to a town 50km north of Melbourne. This would put it in the jurisdiction of the Victorian State Police, although depending on how they respond to the threats it may escalate to the Australian Federal Police (our version of the FBI) if it is viewed as a Commonwealth crime. Blackmane (talk) 03:09, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Extra extra comment Range blocking Telstra basically means you block pretty much the whole country. Telstra is the largest telecommunications company here but it used to be government owned till its privatisation. As such, most of the other ISP's here piggy back off their hardware. Far better to report to the abuse team on irt -at- team.telstra.com. Blackmane (talk) 03:15, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Ok, thank you, User:Blackmane. I will email irt -at- team.telstra.com. I contacted WMF, they could confirm that this was, most likely, *not" my old friend, but some copy-cat. Besides that, they were basically doing nothing; just telling me that I should contact local police. I´m on the other side of the world, I doubt police here would do anything about a threat "down under". Also: if I went to the police, my RL name would get known, and could possibly be leaked. (Yes, I´m a bit paranoid after 5 years with constant death and rape-threaths, I´ll admit!) Lets hope the telstra-team does something; if not, I will be back in a short while asking for you to range-block the whole area: *that* would wake them up, I´m sure! Huldra (talk) 23:26, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Please keep us informed User:Huldra; while I'm not in Victoria, I'm still interested in seeing that this situation is dealt with, preferably without my own access being blocked! Lankiveil (speak to me) 06:00, 5 September 2015 (UTC).[reply]
    User:Lankiveil : I emailed them a couple of days ago; and I have still not received an answer. It is week-end, though, so I think we should give them a few more days. However, if they totally ignore any request, I seriously would suggest blocking Telstra IPs. And no, that would *not* be of any concern to registered editors, (like Lankiveil), it would just stop any Telstra IPs from editing, Huldra (talk) 21:57, 5 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Did you imply that you would seek to have the administrators here begin blocking, if not range blocking Telstra IPs with the attendant consumer complaints that would inevitably arise? Telstra has a bit of a reputation for somewhat poor customer service. I suggest drawing some hard lines in the sand to give them a prod. I'm not in Melbourne so I am at no risk of being blocked. I suggest waiting no more than till Wednesday, Australian time, that's UTC+9 at this time of year. Blackmane (talk) 01:09, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, I did. Still not even an answer.. Huldra (talk) 22:33, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    In That case, the admins should move to start blocking these IPs/IP ranges. Blackmane (talk) 02:11, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Unsurprising result, Telstra are always useless to deal with. If any admin things they can make some reasonable range blocks that don't hit too much collateral I say go for it, but as noted above rangeblocking the entire ISP would be massive overkill – it's the biggest ISP in Australia and there are plenty of areas where it is the only ISP available. Jenks24 (talk) 02:20, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Just checked my email, again, and no response yet from Telstra. Range-block away, I would say, (it would not affect any of you registered users, in any case). If there is a public reaction to this, then we should throw that straight back to Telstra´s court, so to speak. Huldra (talk) 21:14, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I suppose some in this thread should be happy I don't know how to do a rangeblock, since I wouldn't give a damn if I block half the continent. I've seen the comments from that racist, and if that's the price to pay to wake someone up over there, that's fine with me, just fine. Philippe, please tell me that it's not up to one single harassed editor to get in contact with the police and ISPs half a world away; please tell me that you and Jimbo Wales and everyone else there take this kind of stuff seriously. Jimbo, you're an admin: put on your admin goggles, if they still fit, and see what I and others have had to revdelete. It's nice that we want to keep women editors and stop people from saying "cunt"--well, here you have an opportunity to stop one person from saying shit that's infinitely worse than that. Pick up the phone, Philippe and Jimbo, and call someone. You two have weight that Huldra and I don't have. Or wait for the call you'll get, when I accidentally block a million people for three months for racist abuse. Actually, Huldra, that's starting to sound like fun. I wonder if Malik would approve. Drmies (talk) 03:12, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • If we don't get any sort of additional requested response soon, go for it. From what little I dealt with Malik, I think what you are proposing is something that someone with the guts he displayed while actively editing here would need. I am not an admin, but, if I was, I would myself in an few hours, even if I knew it would be the last thing I would ever be likely to do as an admin. John Carter (talk) 16:00, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    User:Drmies: I believe Philippe has "left the building", so to speak, (see this), my understanding is that he is replaced by User:Mdennis_(WMF). It was, however, User:Jalexander-WMF who basically told me to contact my local police. Besides the fact that I live in a country where English is not any of our official languages (we have two), I am not an admin, and all threats are rev-delled. So, I could go to the police, and tell them that this is a rape threat against me and here they want to kill me, ...both comes from an IP at the other side of the world, writing in a foreign language (for my local police), ...and both edits are now over-sighted, so I´m sorry, they cannot see it! Yeah, sure. I would say I have a larger change of winning jackpot in a lottery, than getting the police to act on such a report. So I´ll say range-block away, and then leave it to Telstra and/or WMF to take the response.... Huldra (talk) 12:21, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, Jalexander-WMF, Jimbo Wales, Sj, Phoebe, Raystorm, LilaTretikov, Mdennis_WMF, isn't this an odd situation? (I'd ping everyone but I don't know where to find our upper structure's Rolodex.) We have nothing but volunteers and a couple of computers, while you have money and phones and lawyers and translators and clout and connections with the media and suits and fax machines and endowments and grants and corner offices--and you all let "us" deal with something that should affect you also? Can some of you at least acknowledge that you were pinged here, that you read some of the comments, that you read some of the revdeleted comments, and that you will do something about this? Sorry, but is that not somebody's job? Isn't that part of the surplus value of our (free) labor? Drmies (talk) 15:00, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Huldra, I strongly recommend you contact the Legal team. I am not an admin here and cannot see what was revdeleted, but protecting an editor is my main concern. The rangeblock could be a useful temporary solution (I understand your reluctance to go to the Australian police especially if you cannot show them the threats. I wonder if you could be given the admin flag temporarily for that here. Or maybe someone from the Australian chapter with the flag could provide support?). Legal has an emergency email for these kind of threats in the link above. Contact them, and let me know if I can be of further assistance. Fyi Drmies: Phoebe, Sj and I are no longer affiliated to the wmf. --Raystorm (¿Sí?) 16:03, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I can't see the deleted material, so can someone explain what is so important about preventing the abusive user from editing? I get the impression from the above that he wants to threaten one editor, who he has already threatened, so what difference does it really make if he threatens some more? Why block a big chunk of Australia over it? (@Only in death: I don't see what difference it makes if Telstra has a monopoly, either - do you really expect the average user is going to change his ISP to avoid a rangeblock laid against somebody else?) I also think Wikipedians would be very short-sighted indeed to make any effort to get Australia's overzealous censorship infrastructure focused on our site - it would be a classic case of releasing the rattlesnake to catch a rat in your basement) Wnt (talk) 17:00, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Raystorm, I did exactly that, I contacted emergency@wikimedia.org; they told me to contact Jalexander-WMF, who told me to contact my local police. (Who is located on the other side of the world.)
    Wnt, AFAIK, it is not only me, anyone who revert him, too. Try McSly. And *if* I knew he would stop, that would be fine with me. But from my long experience with vandals (I think I have had death or rape threats every single month for the last 5 years), I know that these guys don´t stop before there is some intervention. Sadly, it is as simple as that. Telstra could very easily stop this; (Together with some (un)-deleted diffs from this place ): instead, they do nothing. Let *them* take the heat. Huldra (talk) 17:57, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Jimbo has commented on his user talk page about this matter here, suggesting a call to Telestra first, threatening to go to the press, and then, if that doesn't work, go to the press. Then, presumably, if that don't work, block the whole damn company if we have to. He's also suggesting a clear and straightforward process to deal with such rare but potentially very damaging cases.
    FWIW, I don't think Telestra is necessarily going to need to have the evidence in hand before taking action in the short term, although, not being from that country, I don't really know. But I do think that the threat of very negative media if they don't do anything will probably be enough. And, with most companies, if the threat isn't, the reality of very negative media probably would be. John Carter (talk) 18:15, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Drmies Yes, it is someone's job; it's my job and the job of my team as Trust & Safety and the broader job of CA and the WMF. There is no doubt that there are major issues with online threats like this and that shutting them down (no matter how many resources you have) can be incredibly difficult, given the frustrating realities of challenges to block (bouncing frequently around IPs/proxies), world wide abuse, and legal law mish mash (where exactly what is possible and what evidence is needed changes depending on where the victim and the perpetrator are). That said, the safety and well being of our users is incredibly important, and we'll continue to try and help users being attacked like this (and to shut down the perpetrators) for as long as it takes. Because of everything, sometimes law enforcement can do that quickly and sometimes it can take years, but that certainly doesn't mean we'll give up on it. In the end when people are making threats to kill or rape someone, these are threats of harm and abuse. Like all threats of this nature they should be reported through our Threats of Harm process as soon as they are found so that the on-call staff (and we're on-call 24-7) can help deal with it quickly, evaluating threats in the moment and getting them to law enforcement as soon as possible in accordance with their protocols. In addition, it's really important that users who are feeling threatened also go to their local police. I know that not everyone likes to do that, but it's an important step that can help provide immediate protection where necessary and also contribute to long-term solutions. In this particular case I'll be reviewing all of the data now in order to report it to the proper authorities, but if more threats come in they should definitely be reported to us so that they can also be actioned. In general, the more evidence and information we have (and the faster we get it) the better, because even if people are trying to cover their tracks by using proxies, difficult-to-track ISPs or countries, they usually make mistakes, and the more information we can get our own contacts the better they can put together reports and investigations that get things done. While it isn't always possible (and I’ll be the first one to admit that from experience as an admin doing this before I was staff), it's also useful to report early so that threads like can close down. When the perpetrator’s main goal is disruption and anger, a long back and forth on ANI can give him a lot of what he's looking for. Jalexander--WMF 18:44, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Figuring out new approaches to harassment is a priority at the Foundation, and we're working together with concerned community members on how we might change things for the better. But as James notes, cases like these are a different beast - they are exceptionally difficult to action. Problem users such as this have no regard for policy or community norms. That said, we will certainly welcome ideas for solutions to this kind of thing as well. We’re putting together some research on harassment issues (you can see some of that here) now and hoping to hold a broad, cross-community consultation gathering ideas a little later this year. I’ll certainly let folks know as that progresses and would love for you to share in that work. Patrick Earley (WMF) (talk) 19:07, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • James Thanks for the reply. I don't understand why you couldn't say whether you've contacted the ISP. That would seem to be step one. Admins do it regularly – it's what the abuse teams at the ISPs are there for. Asking the targeted editor in another country to contact their police force means the editor will have to out themselves to the police, and the police are unlikely to act anyway. What editors usually want in these situations is for the abuse to stop, and ISPs are in a position to make that happen. Sarah (talk) 20:37, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    James, @Huldra: is asking on Jimbo's talk page who should contact the company. I'm guessing you would probably know best what she should do at this point? John Carter (talk) 19:24, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Responded there. Jalexander--WMF 19:34, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Gob Lofa

    Gob Lofa and myself were recently blocked for a 24 hours, with the blocking administrator Callanecc making the following statements at our talk pages [1] and [2], making it clear that they would be looking into a IBAN between us and a TBAN for either one or both of us. Nothing as of yet has come of this and I would like to request that action indeed be taken. I would ask Callanecc directly however I noticed on their talk page that they won't be as active as normal until 14 September, but I will notify them of this AN/I.

    This editors problems have not been altered by their recent block and warnings of further action being taken, and it seems to me that they are intent on going back over previous "flashpoints" and trying to elicit a reaction from me, and whilst I have performed a few reverts I have kept them to the most contentious edits and have done my best to remain civil, however I am coming here hoping to get this nipped in the bud before it escalates further with either an IBAN, and a TBAN on Gob Lofa or both of us or whatever action is deemed merited. It needs to stop.

    Callanecc makes it clear that such a decision will be based on mine and Gob Lofa's actions, for example about civility and usage of sources [3]. Callanecc also requested in his block notice to me (linked above) that I remain civil and leave Gob Lofa's talk page alone, and for my part I feel that I have done that except to place an AN/I notice on their page to notify them of this. Unfortunately Gob Lofa seems to have reverted back to the issues I had originally raised here before deciding to close it and go to ArbCom Enforcement instead, and seems to be intent on carrying on before as well as trying to provoke some form of response from me by revisiting previous debates/flashpoints, starting here (23rd August) and most recently today here (30th August) and here.

    I deem a TBAN on Gob Lofa in regards to Troubles related articles is more than justified going by their actions I raised previously and the following recent edits:

    • Despite previously being informed [4] of the problems with their attempt to add a "Terrorism" category to the article, they decided [5] to put it into the start of the second sentence of the lede in a clear violation of WP:UNDUE (talk page discussion makes it clear why). I reverted [6], asking Gob Lofa to go to talk about it, to which they did and this was the result. Note the incivility from Gob Lofa towards Snowded [7].
    • They are also still at the inaccurate edit summaries. Here they state "NPOV, link, reword etc", however what they actually did was reword a more NPOV sourced statement and changed the entire context of it and made it more POV. They also reworded another sourced statement (at the end of the edit) that was inaccurate as my reversion edit summary makes clear. They made the same edit and misleading summary at this article as well.
    • This is another contentious edit. The government was not involved in the violence, and it is highly contentious and inaccurate to state such.
    • This talk page however clearly reveals the real level of bias with their arguments for their edit, an argument that is clearly at odds with the facts, which I make clear with responses of block quotations from several verifiable and reliable sources by respected academics. Most notably Gob Lofa explicitly stated on 15th July: "the BA put it up to republicans first, starting with forcing through Orange marches with violence in March 1970" [8] however this direct quote from one of those sources I provided on 25th August [9] states "On Easter Tuesday, 31 March 1970, the Junior Orangemen had permission to march in Belfast. On their way out they marched along the Springfield Road without incident, but on their return that evening Catholic youths began to throw bottles at the bands and when about seventy soldiers of the Royal Scots Regiment arrived they were attacked with stones and petrol bombs.". There is some difference between Gob Lofa's version of events and what actually happened, and from an editor who frequently states that they are making things more NPOV.

    They also now seem to be trying to provoke/hound me:

    • [10]. An IP was trying to enforce a word change, and after a few reverts I had asked an admin to semi-protect the page, however a completely new IP appears to change it again. Upon reverting, Gob Lofa appears out of the blue, stating I "Take it to talk", even though there is no basis for such a statement or revert considering I was reverting an IPs edit to the stable version. This new IP and Gob Lofa also both edited this article on the 28th August leading me to wonder are they linked.
    • The following (ab)use [11] of their rollback privilege yesterday (not the first time) to make another inaccurate edit summary and what is clear incivility directed at me with "Undo convoluted POV replacement for Britain". That is in regards to me reverting an edit of theirs back on the 1st May [12]. How that edit summary was merited is beyond me. Notified that it is actually misuse of undo and twinkle, not the rollback feature itself Mabuska (talk) 00:53, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Mabuska (talk) 13:02, 30 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Also in regards to the Dromore, County Down article, a clear attempt at provocation by highly dubious admonishment [13], though my response to it shows the holes in it. Mabuska (talk) 22:25, 31 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Having failed to elicit some form of uncivil response from me at Talk:Dromore,_County_Down they decide to do it instead [14]. They have also decided to follow me to the Ulaid article in an attempt to find something to argue with me over to see if they can get a reaction out of me, in this case removing a WikiProject tag I added [15], though my response discounts their reasoning in their edit summary for it [16]. Mabuska (talk) 21:28, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Continuing to revisit past "flashpoints" to push either their viewpoint or attempt to antagonise by restoring challenged edits:
    • 5 September pushing an edit that was challenged back on 8 July, and continuing with misleading edit summaries, cites the talk page as if there is a consensus for their edit when none exists.
    • 5 September, undoing a revert I made back on 6 July. Once again they restored their inaccurate and unsourced opinion whilst at the same time removing sourced information. Another editor has since reverting them [17].
    Examples will keep being posted until something is done and as Gob Lofa is willing to keep providing them then this issue won't go away. Mabuska (talk) 23:31, 5 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    A lot of times action just doesn't occur at ANI for various reasons. I'm sure in this case, people either feel they don't want to step on Callanecc's purview or it's difficult to dig into the long-term history of the dispute. I think you're going to need to wait for Callanecc on this one as they are going to be the best person for deciding what to do.
    That being said, the one thing I checked quick was the interaction tool for these two.[18] Gob Lufa's only post to Ulaid was 35 minutes after Mabuska. Unless there's more to the story, it can be relatively reasonable to assume Gob Lufa was following Mabuska around in this one instance. The rest really needs someone who's followed the issues (or has a lot of time to catch up). Unless someone has more to add, I think it might be best to close this and let it be sorted out when Callanecc gets back. Kingofaces43 (talk) 01:19, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Thanks for the response. So your suggesting I let this archive and when Callanecc returns post him a direct link to here? That I can do. Mabuska (talk) 10:38, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    • The discussion at Talk:McGurk's Bar bombing#BA violence presents a good example of reasoned debate that seems to go well beyond the call of duty in terms of substantiation. In this light, if Gob Lufa continues with abrasively confrontational behaviour ... then some level of block should be applied. IBANs patently don't work in situations in which editors are working on the same content. GregKaye 05:56, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    User:E.M.Gregory again

    Coming here to avoid 3RR. As a result of a dispute on Matthew C. Whitaker, I have been keeping an eye on User:E.M.Gregory's contribs. He started 2015 Ikea murders for political reasons only per the edit comment). He supported this political view with sources from Breitbart. I knew these were not RS, but tried to stay uninvolved - I notified the Sweden Wikiproject to keep an eye on the article here. They did so, and some cleanup was done, including the addition of failed verification templates on all the sources in the Impact section (the "political part" which is the article creator's claimed focus) at the time. EM Gregory has removed those templates twice and left the sources they are tied to in the article. I restored the templates once, but I'm not going to editwar about it.

    In the interests of disclosure, substantial errors were found and corrected on the aforementioned Whitaker article by myself and others, as evidenced by the Talk page, where I and others have documented several and I would note that there was no engagement by E.M.Gregory on the article talk until the initial matter was brought to ANI as the the result of a PA towards me. There is also a pattern: aside from the massive puffery removed on the Whitaker article, another sourcing error was found on another article, apparently due to a typo (because "Whitney" and "Bingham" are very close together on the keyboard, I guess). These "mistakes" seem to be far too prevalent, including what the initial PA was claimed to be. I'd note that I have also been accused of POV-pushing on illegal immigration, which is an issue I don't even edit. The intermediate diff showing the strikeout of a comment disregarding consensus is pretty interesting, too.

    However, if that is, instead, the focus of EM Gregory's editing (aside from combating supposed "academic injustice" via Whitaker), that is a problem if not done fairly. The editing pattern is damaging to the encyclopedia (like moving an article during AfD), and the unwillingness to assume responsibility for the "mistakes" and errors (instead claiming "accidents", "wikihounding" and "SPAs") is a detriment to collegial editing. I'd take an interaction ban if this were indeed a personal issue on my part, but it isn't; EMG's editing pattern (and the IDIDNTHEARTHAT associated with it) is damaging to the encyclopedia, and it's simply not an isolated problem anymore, because it's cropping up on every article he edits. MSJapan (talk) 20:42, 30 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    • Frankly I am fed up with User:MSJapan's persistent WIKIHOUNDING. This editor has been WIKIHOUNDING me since I made a simple editing error the week before last, for which I swiftly apologized, and has repeatedly stated that s/he would be glad if I left Wikipedia. I believe that her/his goal is to chase me off Wikipedia. At first, I thought the WIKIHOUNDING was a mere overreaction and have refrained form bringing this to ANI. I hate the aggression on Wikipedia. Today the editor's language leads me to suspect a POV motive. Or, perhaps, a nervous breakdown. Whatever MSJapan's editor's motives, his/her behavior is an overreaction to any actual errors I have committed. Certainly, however, MSJapan's approach is an excellent way to convince rational people to avoid editing Wikipedia.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:54, 30 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Then stop editing contrary to policy. You keep adding sources to articles that do not support the statements you want to make. Wikipedia is not a place for your original research, and you don't understand that. Nobody should have go around cleaning up your messes because you didn't do youe due diligence. You don't start a bio article to do nothing but write about scandals, and you don't start an event article to talk about politics. You especially don't remove "verification failed" templates from sources. Respond to issues instead of making ad hominem attacks. Actually, when someone disputes your sources, you need to engage in discussion, not just revert "because it's sourced." Your problem is that you think your opinions trump policies and procedures, and they don't. In short, act like a good contributor, and perhaps people will treat you like one. Until that time, you need to deal with the consequences of your editing behavior. On another note to the admins, have I not provided enough diffs to show the pattern of behavior and lack of engagement to resolve the problem? MSJapan (talk) 15:39, 31 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    If more diffs are needed, this was my removal for clear synth, the talk diff where I explained such, and a wholesale reversion of the edit, despite the talk thread being opened. That's the behavioral point - I made an edit in accordance with policy, explained why on talk in accordance with policy, and was reverted rather than engaged on talk. The substance of the edit is not at question here in this thread.
    I'd also note that this AfD diff on an article EMG is a good indicator as well; the user thinks that writing a BLP focusing on a perpetrator is OK even when it is substantially about the event, and feels that following policies in such cases is "against consensus." The same went for the substantive version of Matthew C. Whitaker before any other editors got involved - a BLP with little to no BLP. There is a similar sourcing discussion on EMG's page here, and prod after prod after prod. EMG has refactored comments at least twice, and has a copyvio notice. I would note that a university bio was OK as a source for David_Mikics (who "automatically passed PROF" on that source), thought a "self-referenced description was OK" on Susya for an NGO, but a uni bio was "unsourced hagiography" on Matthew C. Whitaker. Again, this isn't content, it's editing conduct. When the source suits his purpose, it's OK, and when it doesn't, it isn't, no matter what.
    Wikihounding seems to be a common fallback when someone disagrees with his editing and he can't get his way. He did that to Auslondoner after previously having falsely accused him of abusing SPEEDY and canvassing. He also goes after editors who tag his work as if they're in the wrong for tagging unsourced and single source articles. No one is responsible for the EMG's lack of competence other than him, and he's clearly not willing to accept that. MSJapan (talk) 18:01, 31 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • This series of edits by E.M.Gregory violates NPOV by exaggerating the connection between the IKEA murders and the rise of Sweden's anti-immigration politics. E.M.Gregory's sentence, "The attack is said to have contributed to producing a major uptick in support for the Sweden Democrats Party, which pledges to limit immigration," falsely portrays the two sources, both of which only mention the IKEA murders as a recent element rather than as a major influence. Challenged on this point, E.M.Gregory expanded the problem, adding a source written before the murders (!!) as well as an opinion piece from the UK which fails to describe the IKEA murders as having a major influence on the popularity of the Sweden Democrats Party. This looks like political advocacy to me, not encyclopedic writing. I'm seeing poor work by E.M.Gregory, not hounding by MSJapan. Binksternet (talk) 18:15, 31 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Also, if a problem has been identified, can we please have some actual disciplinary action on top of the problem identification? The user's behavior is getting ridiculous, to the point of effectively inventing things to change. It's actually a minor improvement for once, but the behavior around it negates the whole thing, as the change was made only as a way to attack me (not to improve the content). This should not be the level that it takes to get a minor positive contribution out of the user, either. Said user, by the way, despite being notified of the ANI, hasn't actually addressed anything stated herein (of which there is a substantial pattern illustrated by diffs in several articles, talk pages, and AfDs) other than to accuse me of POV editing and mental instability. I consistently address content, and he consistently addresses me, not the content. Maybe I simply haven't been clear in what I wish to be done, so here it is: The shoddy disruptive POV editing all over Wikipedia and the personal attacks in response to content edits from this user need to stop, by sanction if necessary. MSJapan (talk) 16:38, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    And some NPA [21]. MSJapan (talk) 20:17, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    which the user attempted to refactor out of the discussion, removing another editor's comment as well: [22] MSJapan (talk) 00:30, 4 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Still more disruptive behavior:

    It is becoming apparent that when E.M.Gregory does not get his way, he edits disruptively, pushes back against editors who do not agree with him, and generally causes a problem. For that reason, I'm retitling this ANI, as this has really gone well beyond one article. There are too many issues across the contribs at this point to call this isolated or personal. I've found at least three other editors he has caused problems with at this point. By ignoring this, his behavior is being validated. MSJapan (talk) 06:32, 4 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    • Note — As a heads up, I've added {{Ds/alert}}s to editors involved with the BLPs and warned E.M.Gregory (talk · contribs) about a clear personal attack. To be fair, I do understand why he would feel he was being followed around, but clearly random accusations on talk pages or AfDs is not the proper place to go about dealing with the issue. --slakr\ talk / 08:03, 4 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    User interactions with AusLondonder

    I've mentioned these before, but I'm going to drop them into a subsection to see if Auslondonder wishes to participate in this discussion, because there's a lot of interaction between them, too.

    • [24] - where EMG falsely accuses AusLondonder of CSDing
    • [25] - where EMG goes from lightly reprimanding AusLondonder to notify editors from the previous AfD, and then accuses AusLondonder of violating canvassing by doing so
    • [26] - EMG then returns with the wikihounding accusation MSJapan (talk) 20:40, 4 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment having had a brief look at some of the articles created/edited by EMG, over and above the quality/misuse of sources, tag removing and general uncooperativeness referred to above. The articles seem to be written in a very WP:Coatrack manner, in which the main purpose of the article is to link immigration and criminality. Some of the articles currently at AfD, might well pass, but need major cleanups. If MSJapan and others have been obliged to follow this editor to ensure reasonable standards of sourcing and neutrality, they are doing us all a favour, not 'wikihounding'. Pincrete (talk) 08:39, 5 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment Firstly, I am perplexed why no admin is replying to this matter or addressing the concerns. I have had some difficult experiences with E. M. Gregory in the past. My perspective is that this editor seems to seek to seek to pursue a political agenda on Wikipedia to a significant extent. This relates mostly to Islam/immigration and related topics (and in the past LGBT issues). This includes misuse and misinterpretation of sources and continual false allegations against other editors. While E. M. Gregory has made some helpful contributions, they also fail to follow some behavioural and editing guidelines. My response to his false allegations against me was fairly robust, as we have clashed in the past when I nominated an article relating to a book about gay "conversion therapy", resulting in false accusations of bad faith and agenda-pushing. AusLondonder (talk) 09:04, 5 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Auslondoner's record of bring articles the political implications of which he does not like to AFD is remarkable. Trying to remember ever "tangling" or even editing an article on LGBT issues, I came upon his AFD for a book: The Myth of Islamic Tolerance. Cannot find/recall what LGBT -related AFD I might have met him on. More recently, he simultaneously attempted to speedy SeaGlass Carousel and brought to AFD 2012 Paros (Greece) rape and 2003 Route 60 Hamas ambush. The problem is that he does not seem to perform WP:BEFORE, before he nominated articles. Moreover, the sort of reasons he gives for deletion "An encyclopaedia cannot cover every rape committed even if it is *gasp* committed by an "illegal" immigrant." are not exactly policy driven.E.M.Gregory (talk) 17:14, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      I feel, as I have felt since MSJapan started this, that while it is true that I have made mistakes since I began editing regularly earlier this year, I have in general been a responsible editor. I also suppose that all editors make mistakes. What is intense and inappropriate about MSJapan is not only combing thorough months of edits to fine errors, but saving them up like a magpie to bring here, why not just fix the things? the intensity comes in articles like Douglas Al-Bazi, an article I found at AFD and sourced. I'm not saying that it's perfect, merely that MSJapan's description of it both at the AFD and, particularly, at the [[User talk:slakrs talk page to be almost inexplicable. Unless, of course, his goal is to drive me form Wikipedia, and the only reason for trying to drive me away that I can imagine is that she does not want articles about Christian refugees from ISIS on wikipedia. Perhaps this is not political, whatever the motivation, I do feel that I am undeserving of the language and animosity directed at me by MSJapan, and that both MSJapan (who repeatedly has expressed a desire to drive me off Wikipedia) and AusLondne To me, it feels as though they are working in combination to drive me away form Wikipedia.E.M.Gregory (talk) 17:14, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I have in fact never stated such a position, and I see that EMG has not provided diffs to illustrate that. Meanwhile, I have provided plenty of diffs illustrating that EMG is not a responsible editor. Too many of his articles are written with an agenda in mind, and when confronted, he attacks the editor. The reason EMG finds my explanation "inexplicable" is dumbfounding to me, because I read every source EMG added to the article to try to find the statement he was citing to the source. In no case were those statements there; period. Therefore, it is likely that COATRACKing via Google is what is happening - Google the subject, add every source that his name is in - there's no other way that we could get to the situation that material clearly from a BBC radio program only was being sourced elsewhere. That is not responsible editing.
    A similar thing happened here, where my source-based explanation was met with personal response, and in fact has nothing to do with the article's topic. The same thing happened on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shooting of Danny Gonen - the pushback against the editors, not the sources: "the nom didn't do BEFORE", "Assertion is false" etc, not "the source says." MSJapan (talk) 17:50, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The reason for the personal pushback seems to be an agenda of wanting these articles on Wikipedia, often for what appears to be ulterior motives. 2003 Route 60 Hamas ambush was created on August 16, and then he basically walked away from the article. It was prodded two weeks later, and that's when the issues started. Every time someone said something in the AfD, EMG went an COATRACKed a bunch of sources in to the article. This is the same thing he did with Matthew C. Whitaker, and several creation edit summaries illustrates this creation/expansion pattern:
    2003 Route 60 Hamas ambush - edit summary on creation diff "article on 2003 Hamas terror shooting, back in the news due to successful lawsuit against bank that transferred funds to Hamas" - CLEARLY not notable as a standalone event, but being written as such. Created the article in one edit, left it alone until it was prodded two weeks later
    Matthew C. Whitaker - Started the article July 14 during coverage, worked on it for about 2 days, then went away from it until it was tagged as undue August 2. EMG removed tags without discussion, and then didn't touch the article again until it was edited August 19.
    [Seaglass Carousel creation diff https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=SeaGlass_Carousel&action=history] - "new article on new carousel, sourcing goes back yrs. , coverage likely to be intense when it opens next week - let them source it to Wikipedia" This is simply inappropriate use of the encyclopedia
    There wouldn't be so much evidence if this wasn't such a widespread problem, and I have probably not gone back more than a month or so of editing (maybe six weeks by now?), except in a few cases, because the point is that this is a long-term problem iwith this editor, not a personal issue limited to interactions with one or two editors. MSJapan (talk) 17:50, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I apologize for my levity at SeaGlass Carousel. The carousel is a big deal, artistically and in terms of coverage. I made a joke because I started the article just before the official opening. I happened to see it at night when the lights were on, the crew was running trials. I was totally take by it. So I wrote the little article. I write when something moves me. My first edit was about a terrorist attack. Mateu Morral. I find these things appalling, what ever the politics of the perpetrator. I suspect that a great many more of the old-time old anarchist and communist terror attacks could support articles than have them now. Often I am moved by a book, or an artist. I recently began several articles (mere stubs) about the cast of a show I saw: ((Hamilton (musical)]] and loved. I was not aware that there was a rule against starting an article and leaving it brief, in the assumption that it will grow. I have been under the impression that this is how Wikipedia functions. I often add just a bit to an article. Say, a reference, or a small fact. Sometimes I start an article in the belief that others, who know more about the topic, will sooner or later come and add to it. this seems to happen. But I have certainly been under the impression that if an incident of terrorism is widely covered by major media outlets, then an article is appropriate. This is true even of a great many such incidents where noone dies. (for example, 2014 Dijon attack, 2006 UNC SUV attack. I remember these incidents vividly, perhaps because I am familiar with the locations where they took place, but I heard about them on the national news at the time they ocurred. To me, MSJapan appears to be setting up a set of requirements for keeping an article on the 2003 Route 60 Hamas ambush that don't exist and/or are not applied to other, somewhat parallel incidents in which civilians are targeted by terrorists. In a broader sense, I do not find his descriptions of my work accurate, or his attitude constructive. I had, as I have stated elsewhere, decided that if I ignored him instead of engaging with him, that he would forget me. Since he has not, I respond here and throw myself on the fairmindedness of editors reading this.E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:21, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    You "ignore me" insofar as you revert edits out of hand, and refuse to engage in discussion until I bring things here, despite my posting on talk pages and AfDs consistently, documenting all my changes for the record. Meanwhile, you very much don't ignore me when your reversion edit summaries are all some form of "MSJapan is wrong/untruthful/makes unsupported statements", and yet you can't point to where the information you say is in the source, is actually in the source. I would also point out that I have never once made a personal attack against you, and have confined my statements entirely to dealing with sources. You, on the other hand, have accused me (so far) of: being an article topic, POV editing, having a COI, being "mentally unstable", and "having a nervous breakdown." It takes several other editors making the same changes I make and document for them to stick. Three other editors have indicated problems just in this thread, and two of them have never interacted with you. How big does the problem need to get? MSJapan (talk) 03:33, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Deliberate rewording and coatracking: here. The phrase from Al Monitor reads Whenever groups of Jewish extremists enter, the women begin to chant Islamic verses. If the Jewish groups are seen attempting to pray, the women shout the Islamic religious phrase of Allahu Akbar (God is Great). EMG has changed it to "Israelis", and the source he adds says "where they would study Quran and disrupt the increasingly frequent visits by religious Jews to the site, with shouts of Allahu Akbar (God is Great) and physical assaults." Neutrality aside, "Israelis" are not the same as either "religious Jews" or "Jewish extremists" and that is not an accurate representation of the sources. The fact that this is a new article that EMG is editing reinforces the point that this is an editing problem, not a content dispute. I personally don't care what the content is, as long as it reflects the sources, and it does not. MSJapan (talk) 19:07, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]


    Reformat of information

    I am condensing the information in hopes that less text will encourage input.

    AfD issues

    Personal attacks/Accusations against other editors

    POV editing

    • Notability tagging on Arabian Business magazine, an article we've had since 2008.
    • Per the edit comment, article created to talk about nonexistent political fallout.
    • Addition of failed verification templates by uninvolved editors removed twice.
    • 2003 Route 60 Hamas ambush - edit summary on creation diff "article on 2003 Hamas terror shooting, back in the news due to successful lawsuit against bank that transferred funds to Hamas" - CLEARLY not notable as a standalone event, but being written as such. Created the article in one edit, left it alone until it was prodded two weeks later.
    • Combating supposed "academic injustice" via the Matthew C. Whitaker article.
    • This AfD diff where EMG justifies writing an event article solely to focus on the perp.
    • Seaglass Carousel creation diff - "new article on new carousel, sourcing goes back yrs. , coverage likely to be intense when it opens next week - let them source it to Wikipedia"

    Source issues

    Suggested course of action

    Editing restrictions should be imposed:

    • Oversight of EMG's edits by a mentor to ensure sources support claims made, without exception.
    • If possible, requirement of approval of edits by a mentor who will do due diligence to verify those sources.
    • Required and enforced engagement with others' concerns with edits, especially with new articles and edits in the Israel-Palestine area.
    • EMG may not revert edits permitted without consensus on talk page.
    • Zero tolerance of PA in all interactions with editors.

    Lack of acceptance of these measures will lead to suspension of editing privileges via timeban. Continued violations should lead to an outright block. MSJapan (talk) 05:43, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    COI editing and personal attacks on Democracy & Nature and Talk:Democracy & Nature

    This article is mainly edited by a few editors who only edit this article and two related ones (Inclusive Democracy and Takis Fotopoulos). Although I have tried to explain clearly what problems I see with the article as it currently stands, I continue to be accused of editing with a political bias by John sargis (as well as an IP editor, 165.120.27.172, but I assume that is the same person who forgot to log in). I consider this a personal attack and have notified the editor of this. This was again answered with a personal attack. The editor's user page and talk page show that this person has a history of such attacks. The editor also has a COI with this article, having published himself in this journal several times (e.g., [30] and [31]). In view of these repeated attacks and persistent failure to AGF, perhaps some editor here can have a look. Thanks. --Randykitty (talk) 12:23, 24 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    • You assume wrong what you think is my IP address. It is not me. You should be sure about your "facts" before making veiled presumptions against me. After I repeatedly showed you the irregularities about the way wiki rules are applied in terms of what you see as "problems" with the article, you blame me for attacking you. I am pointing out the foolish consistencies in the way the rules are applied in that there are many other articles that suffer from the same "rule", but it seems they only apply to D&N, even after it has been pointed out to you those other articles. If there are wiki rules that are “double standards” and an administrator enforces them, then logic dictates that the administrator is biased. This is not a personal attack. Furthermore, I do question your motives since if you think I did attack you personally, you threatened to take me to the WP:ANI board to get me banned. I question your motives, because before you post a grievance against a user with the board, you must FIRST try to resolve the issue on my talk page. Which you did not do. Thus you are harassing me. And I am asking now that an administrator can have a look for proof at my talk page. Thanks. John sargis (talk) 19:15, 24 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Sorry, but again as I have repeated, I want the rules to be evenly applied, which you did not do. The rule says that you go to my talk page to iron out the personal issue(s) and not at the article page which is inappropriate. You bypassed and undercut the rule so that you could preemptively get me banned by going immediately to the administrators. This is harassment. So again a foolish consistency underscores how you use or not use wiki rules for your convenience. John sargis (talk) 20:48, 24 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Your insinuation, Randykitty, is I am hypocritical when you say, “apparently there are situations where you do want those darned Wikipedia rules.” implying I am biased is a personal attack. I replied, above, I want the rules applied evenly, but yet you are insisting not to use them evenly as evidenced not only in your discussions here and especially at your post at 19:36 (UTC) above, but also at D&N page where last year you tried the same editorial tactics with no success of deletion—and now you are at it again. It is difficult for it not come to mind that you have a political bias, but I do not know. John sargis (talk) 21:43, 24 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • User Randykitty, as demonstrated in Talk:Democracy & Nature, has consistently tried to impose his way of editing the article, by adding repeatedly tags and requests for citations, that were effectively shown to him that are at least irrelevant to the article and constituted the -to my mind as well- justifiable assumption that he indeed maintains a bias toward the entry. His recurrent editing "spree" has been accompanied by his unwillingness to answer to documented and logical questions brought to his attention in the Talk Page. So the assumption of his maintaining a bias towards the article does not constitute a Personal Attack, as so easily and conveniently Randykitty accuses me and other editors of, and this is because all criticizing was aimed at his activity in the entry, accompanied by documented and -to a decent degree- laborious argumentation on his recurrent and lately almost totally exorbitant actions showcased in the Talk Page. And this is particularly so, when in the meanwhile and while he accused the other editors, I tried to contribute to the article by particularly addressing his demands for citations, from the moment they seemed somehow sensible. At the same time, the only thing Randykitty did was mainly deleting, and adding tags!..
    Then, Randykitty didn't take the time to activate the Dispute Resolution procedure, before bringing the matter to the Administrators' board. On the contrary he accuses the other editors involved in the discussion, with a striking nerve, of being a "sect"! But this is to say easily when an editor is short of answers to the points raised by me or anybody else who out of necessity does not spend his life in checking wiki entries and he resorts to the facile ‘accusation’ that "I exclusively edit topics related to the ones mentioned above”. But why specialist knowledge on a topic is something wrong when editing an article in an encyclopedia and in Wikipedia, when of course it's not a field for advocacy? Yes, I do have specialist knowledge on the topic and this is why I take party on discussions related to it rather than on brain cancer surgery. Unless of course, according to Wikipedia rules, people with no obvious knowledge on a topic or on the meaning or the function of a theoretical journal should have more say on any topic, as long as they have memorized some wiki rules. Of course rules are needed but the issue is how (as every rule) are interpreted. Panlis (talk) 07:54, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Do we really need to give any more rope to this group maintaining a walled garden, per WP:COI, WP:SOAP, WP:NOTHERE, WP:BATTLEGROUND, and WP:NPA. --Randykitty (talk) 08:22, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Randykitty increasingly acts in -to say the very least- bad faith and total unwillingness to follow any gradual protocol required by Wikipedia before dropping in the row and without any documented reply his "allegations" in this board. Now he demonstrates once again his blatant unwillingness to take part in the discussion in the Democracy & Nature Talk Page and to reply to the concrete arguments posed against his theses, when at the same time, he continues adding tags that have been demonstrated to him to be at best irrelevant and at worst, totally biased as [I (and other editors) have tried to prove here, without any at all, further participation to the dialogue by this obviously Disruptive Editor. It's also becoming now more than clear that the same user uses his "credentials" of thousands of edits in articles and of being an administrator, so as not only to impose his unacceptable editing methods to the D&N entry, despite my and other editors' best attempts to concretely and in detail show his inconsistency (and, ultimately), bias in this case, but to also throw mud against all other editors with whom he simply does not agree with: By putting at the venture labels on them of the sort of "WP:COI, WP:SOAP, WP:NOTHERE, WP:BATTLEGROUND, WP:NPA" etc..
    And all this when
    (a) positive response to some of his sensible demands was accurately applied to the entry,
    (b) his blatant inconsistencies were meticulously shown with specific examples and passages in the Talk Page, without him caring to give any concrete reply to my and others' argumentation in the Talk Page,
    (c) he jumped without any constraint to blame me and other editors of WP:COI, WP:SOAP, WP:NPA etc., without any effort on his part to follow a normal procedure of the many available in WP:DR and elsewhere before resorting to these accusations and before bringing me and others to the WP:ANI, and finally,
    (d) he continues even at this moment his disruptive editing and undocumented reverses without giving any explanation at all in the talk page for this, while at the same time he has the "nerve" of accusing me (with the non-argument) of "not addressing the underlying problems" (!), something that I tried to do in -I think- a decently laborious and well-documented attempt! Hence Randykitty's action that suits to his case could also be showcased vividly in the following clear passages from WP:DISRUPTSIGNS:

    "A disruptive editor is an editor who exhibits tendencies such as the following: (...)

    1. Is tendentious: continues editing an article or group of articles in pursuit of a certain point for an extended time despite opposition from other editors. Tendentious editing does not consist only of adding material; some tendentious editors engage in disruptive deletions as well. An example is repeated deletion of reliable sources posted by other editors." (...)
    2. Engages in "disruptive cite-tagging"; adds unjustified {{citation needed}} tags to an article when the content tagged is already sourced, uses such tags to suggest that properly sourced article content is questionable." (...)
    Panlis (talk) 13:55, 27 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • This thread had been archived. I have restored it in hope of solliciting some input about this case of SPA editors owning some articles. --Randykitty (talk) 08:32, 31 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Having completely lost the argument, Randykitty now returns (as was fully expected of him!) with yet another wp rule: owning. However, once again, he simply distorts another wp rule. He has no evidence whatsoever to support his new allegation apart from the fact that the editors who tried to make sense of his multiple tagging (like John Sargis and Panlis) were involved before in exchanges related to D&N and related entries. However, the owning rule itself stresses that “It is quite reasonable to take an interest in an article on a topic you care about − perhaps you are an expert” and Panlis himself admitted his special knowledge on the topic. Randykitty has to show convincingly that “this watchfulness has become possessiveness” and he NEVER MANAGED TO DO SO, particularly as the editors involved (as well as myself) tried repeatedly to improve the entry following those of Randykitty’s suggestions which were specific enough and looked reasonable,e.g. providing the citations and the links to references he asked for. I also supposed that as long as he does not just put tags all around, without usually giving concrete advice on what has to be done, the editors already involved –and hopefully others as well—would continue helping to improve the entry. Unless of course his real aim is not to improve the entry but simply to have it deleted, after his failed attempt for deletion last year.165.120.27.172 (talk) 11:24, 31 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Still no comments from uninvolved editors. --Randykitty (talk) 08:25, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • According to Randykitty’s “interpretation” of wp rules, all comments from ‘involved’ editors can easily be dismissed or ignored, irrespective of the quality of the arguments concerned, just because these editors are interested in a particular topic on which they happen to have some knowledge. On the other hand, his own heavy involvement in this particular entry in the past when he tried (and failed) to have it deleted, does not matter simply because he has managed to make 62,000 edits in the short period of 2 years and 10 months - obviously working on a full-time basis - i.e. over 60 edits per day, apart from starting over 60 new entries!165.120.27.172 (talk) 11:55, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • After the personal attacks, we now progress to taunting. Directly ON Ani... --Randykitty (talk) 14:30, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I am not personally attacking or taunting anybody and that was obviously not my intention. I simply stated some OBVIOUS FACTS and Randykitty, instead of trying to dispute them, resorts to his familiar tactics of playing the victim.165.120.27.172 (talk) 15:21, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I really need not to "dispute" anything you and the other editors above have been writing. It is there for everybody to see and what is true of it is equally simple to see. Eventually, some uninvolved editors will get around to this and wade through the wall of accusations that has been thrown up above and, if they'll find that you are correct, I'll be swiftly desyssopped and indefinitely blocked from editing here. --Randykitty (talk) 06:47, 4 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Randykitty, please avoid this "self-defeating" rhetoric. The way you set the demand, i.e. for some non-involved users to intervene in order to clarify if it's that "we" ("the sect" according to your -at least, humiliating-, accusation about me and other editors of the Democracy & Nature entry) "are correct", something meaning that you will have to be "swiftly desyssopped and indefinitely blocked from editing here" (!) is at least disorienting for any user that happens to see this debate. No one asked or suggested such a "response", which shows that you probably have personalized the whole debate. In fact no one asked anything from you, apart from the logical need to show where you believe the editors are mistaken in the first place as regards the editing of the aforementioned entries, particularly when they explicitly claimed that their intention was not Personal Attacking and that they tried to a more or less degree to address your sensible "demands" for citations etc.. On the other hand, you brought two editors before this Board, with a (at least slanderous against me) row of accusations, when, as I tried to show above and in the Democracy & Nature entry's Talk Page, it' s your mistake that you haven't tried to reply to any of the significant arguments raised against your activity, (by abstaining from any dialogue in the entry's Talk Page despite my and others' effort for precise argumentation) and secondly you continued to bypass the fact that significant effort has been in the making to collectively improve the article, even by newer editors like Niceguyedc and Fusedmilk. You didn't even TRY to follow a Dispute Resolution procedure but you jumped directly into here when you saw that not all your demands would be "fulfilled"...Panlis (talk) 15:55, 5 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • You are wrong. This is from the WP:NPA.
    "Recurring, non-disruptive personal attacks that do not stop after reasoned requests to cease can be resolved through dispute resolution and third opinions. In most circumstances, problems with personal attacks can be resolved if editors work together and focus on content, and immediate administrator action is not required." (my emphasis). And the bold is what you don't try to do but you bring editors in this board - avoiding an attempt to reply to specific arguments as regards the entry's content in the entry's Talk Page and above.Panlis (talk) 22:26, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Comment from uninvolved editor I see an assumption of bad faith towards Randykitty by John sargis, Panlis and the IP (with sock/meatpuppetry always a possibility) which is unusual even by WP standards. Miniapolis 22:10, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    • Could I read a reasoning for the conclusion that you see "an assumption of bad faith towards Randykitty by John sargis, Panlis and the IP (with sock/meatpuppetry always a possibility) which is unusual even by WP standards." ?Panlis (talk) 22:33, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • It is very easy (and convenient too!) for somebody to declare himself ‘uninvolved editor’ and then to go on slandering other editors like me as sockpuppets etc mainly because I am an IP address editor. However, I thought that according to WP rules “the treatment of IP address editors as second-class editors is unacceptable”. If this rule is not valid anymore please let me know and I will stop immediately taking part in the discussion. I think that good or bad faith should be assessed on the basis of the arguments offered not on the basis of suspicions and offering no arguments at all does not help anybody in drawing conclusions about the good faith of other editors. Quite the opposite.165.120.27.172 (talk) 00:15, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Randykitty accused me and an editor using an IP address (read first two posts of this thread), of claiming political bias against him in which which he assumes the IP editor is me and thus he reported me to “the editor”. I told him he is assuming wrong. It is not my IP address. Thus by notifying the editor he harassed me for no real reason, because he does not show evidence that it is my IP address and he never first tried to resolve the issue on my talk page, but bypassed that wiki rule to file a grievance against me. I do not see how you can claim bad faith on my part, when it was Randykitty who harassed and threatened me. He replies that there is “no need to start yet another discussion on your talk page” (where personal issues are resolved). And “apparently there are situations where you do want to use those darned Wikipedia rules.” Thus there is proof that he uses the wiki rules when it is convenient for him, and yet he accuses me that I want wiki rules to be used only for some situations. But if you look at my replies, I said that I want the wiki rules “evenly applied”, which is obvious by reading the thread above. Thank you. John sargis (talk) 01:58, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think the editing/behavior pattern of this group of editors is quite clear. They are not here to create a neutral encyclopedia, but to push an agenda. Anybody interfering with that gets hit with a barrage of accusations and wikilawyering. Trying to improve one of "their" articles is hit by demands that other articles that have similar deficits get cleaned up first because if you don't do that, you have a political bias. This all started with an effort by me to make the article on the (borderline notable) journal Democracy & Nature compliant with our journal article writing guide. Sargis, as a former contributor to this journal, obviously has a conflict of interest here, but that doesn't hold them back spouting a stream of accusations in my direction. And as demonstrated above, anybody who dares say that this is not the way things are done here, clearly must be biased against them, too. I think that, at the least, some topic bans are in order here. --Randykitty (talk) 09:16, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Agreed. Everybody and everything you don't like has to be banned. This is direct democracy in action. Particularly so if some people are 'more equal' than others in imposing their own view of what a neutral encyclopedia should all be about and are able to dictate who is allowed to speak and who is not. Personally I refuse to take part anymore in any further 'discussions' of this kind.165.120.27.172 (talk) 11:05, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • You say
    "I think the editing/behavior pattern of this group of editors is quite clear. They are not here to create a neutral encyclopedia, but to push an agenda. Anybody interfering with that gets hit with a barrage of accusations and wikilawyering. Trying to improve one of "their" articles is hit by demands that other articles that have similar deficits get cleaned up first because if you don't do that, you have a political bias."
    a)You still throw accusations and mud against me and others without even getting into trouble to support your case the way you should do according to WP:AOBF,-as I tried to do-, but you assumed bad faith from the beginning, and this was not accidental as you had attempted to delete the entry as non-notable in the recent past, something that was unanimously rejected with the active participation of other editors as well. And pardon me but..who talks about wikilawyering when you drop rows over rows of Wiki rules which some of them contain significant passages as I tried to show above in my replies that serve the opposite case to what you want to demonstrate! (see the passages from the WP:ANI above, WP:AOBF etc.)
    b)As usually you bypass the argument. What you did and this is why you were criticized in the first place was mostly that you added citation demands repeatedly and in a row despite the clear no-need for them in a significant dialogue to which you decided not to take part and reply, while at the same time I and others tried consistently to address your own demands so as to improve the entry, something that demonstrates a reasonably bona fide approach and clearly undermines your accusations for WP:NPA and doesn't explain at all the initiative for beginning this debate in here!.
    "This all started with an effort by me to make the article on the (borderline notable) journal Democracy & Nature compliant with our journal article writing guide."
    c)Yes, and the editors replied with documented argumentation, passages, examples etc. to your edits in the page's Talk Page; To their answers you did not get into trouble to answer but you brought me and the rest in here when you saw that not all your demands would be fulfilled.
    d)Calling a journal borderline notable needs proof which should be given in the entry's Talk Page and not through aphorisms here. A clear decision that the journal is notable was formed just a year ago after extensive discussion and documentation with the participation of other editors too, when you first raised the non-notability factor. Your insistence to show how not notable the journal is, is just another indication of your obvious bias against it and that you just like to pull at straws in this case.
    "And as demonstrated above, anybody who dares say that this is not the way things are done here, clearly must be biased against them, too. I think that, at the least, some topic bans are in order here. "
    e)This is simply not to say when clear effort to improve the entry was made as a reply to your own dictations. On the other hand your bias is a pattern shown repeatedly, beginning from your attempt to delete the entry a year ago (based on the supposed non-notability of it), which was rejected, by your call still for non-notability of the journal despite the decision last year, by the fact that you proceeded in a spree of cite-tagging that you didn't like to address in the major medium to do it: In the entry's Talk Page.
    g)From the above, the case to my mind is simply pulling at straws and should be archived. Moreover no reasoning at all was given by the non-involved editor who appeared yesterday. Panlis (talk) 16:23, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Sorry, but I think you misread things. The previous AfD was not unanimous at all (despite a host of SPA editors creeping out of the woodwork), which is probably why you didn't link to it directly. (The fact that it was taken to AfD no less than 4 times shows that its notability is not as clear as you try to make it seem). And from the moment that I dared voice some critical remarks of the article on this journal, my motivations have been put into doubt, so it's a bit rich that you now call upon AGF, something you have never done yourself. The references "for which there is no clear need" that I requested are clearly needed. The journal article writing guide, based on a wide consensus in the WikiProject Academic Journals, explicitly states that lists of authors should not be included in an article unless "there are independent reliable sources discussing their involvement with the journal in more than an in-passing way." The appropriate sources should be provided or the list should be removed. Now lest somebody thinks that this is a simple content dispute that does not belong at ANI, please have a look at the talk page of the article and the blatant personal attacks there (continued for all to see in the postings above). --Randykitty (talk) 17:30, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • You are right, it was not unanimous, you were the only one who didn't agree as far as I recall among a variety of editors. But the documents and dialogue back then demonstrated for good the notability of the article, with dozens of 3rd party references that I digged out, if you remember, which further showed its significance. Secondly, this is not a forum for solving the possible issues of an article but this should be done in its Talk Page to which you decided not to answer. Particularly when the issues raised above were replied in that Talk Page by using relevant examples from many important Journal entries to which for peculiar reasons this rule for Journals you mention doesn't abide, and for which entries you did not make any further fuss e.g. raising respective complaints for their having a simple and direct listing of contributors. And this is mainly because of your bias against the Democracy and Nature entry that has been more than evident from all dialogue in that Talk Page and here, that you disguise as WP:NPA. This is then to my mind clearly a pulling at straws case you continue raising in this Board as it is not intended of course for Dispute Resolution over the content of an article and you very well know it. As per your "critical remarks", you insist on bypassing the fact that the editors of the entry replied to all of them concretely and with evidence in the appropriate page to do this, something that you just did not like and chose arbitrarily to bring the issue of WP:NPA in here instead. But this is also a case of turning a blind eye to the edits of the entry because as I repeatedly demonstrated (but you prefer to ignore), all your sensible demands according to the editors of the entry -older and newer as well-, were met.- Panlis (talk) 19:41, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Read again. There were several delete !votes, although they indeed are somewhat drowned in the walls of text that you and your friends were dropping on that debate, just as you're doing here. You obviously have read WP:TLDR and are trying to use it to your advantage here. The arguments that you brought forward on the talk page to counter my legitimate concerns were 1/ WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS and 2/ "you're biased". That kind of arguments always crop up when a cabal of POV/COI editors are faced with somebody insisting on getting things done in a neutral and encyclopedic way. --Randykitty (talk) 20:09, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Can you please use concrete evidence as passages, diffs etc., like I have been persistently doing inhere, so as to justify your "conclusions"? I just read the dialogue in the Democracy and Nature entry's Talk Page and I don't see any other user who had taken part in that discussion (Cwobeel, WallabieJoey, KosMal, Arran Gare and a couple of IP editors) who was in favour of deleting the entry back then except for you.! Isn't that correct? If I am mistaken please correct me by bringing here specific links, diffs etc. and not with aphorisms. My final take on this irrelevant and disorientating debate is that this is not the arena to solve the possible issues of an entry, and the other issues (Personal Attacking etc.) that you raised were addressed in painstaking detail above. I hope this has become clear and I plead you to stop raising repeatedly humiliating and aggressive cases against me by calling me part of a sect etc. and by pulling at straws inhere, as it could be taken for Harassment. You may have plenty of time to do tens of thousands of edits and to jump to conclusions in dialogues and debates, without getting into trouble to offer specific evidence as per WP:AOBF, but unfortunately I have not when it is not justified, as clearly happens in this pulling-at-straws case. And in addition to the fact that I try to be very precise and documented in my interventions these are the two main reasons for which I cannot contribute in the frequency and to the extent I would like to the Wikipedia project. Thank you! Panlis (talk) 20:49, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Nice try, but as my previous comment should have made clear, we're not here to discuss what happened in an AfD a year ago (even though that debate was marred by the same lack of good faith and personal attacks, and, yes, there were other editors !voting "delete", too), nor is this the place to deal with a content dispute. We are here because of the refusal to AGF and the personal attacks at Talk:Democracy & Nature (at the misnamed section Randy Kitty's recurring deletion attempt). The "discussion" there clearly shows that my efforts to explain why something needs to be done were met with scorn, personal attacks (throwing doubt on my integrity), and bullshit arguments that other articles should be cleaned up first. Diffs are not necessary here, a 5 min perusal of the section I just linked do will do the job just fine. --Randykitty (talk) 21:32, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Why are you using foul and abusive language such as "bullshit"? Is not that a wiki "no no"? We are proving your bias, since there is a history to your attempt to delete D&N. So how can that not be evidence, because it happened in the past? Randykitty you dis other editors in the previous AfD of D&N as “creeping out of the woodwork” and as "your friends". If that is not an assault or name calling or personal attack or breaking of some wiki rule, or suggesting that bona fide editors are our "friends"let me know what is. Actually, if I were vengeful, I could say the same about the “univolved” editor as "your friend" “creeping out of the woodwork” at this late stage, but I will not because I have no proof. Four times D&N withstood deletion. Is this perpetual attempt to delete not part of something about journal writing? Notable is notable whether weak or strong is it not? Why are you beating a dead horse? Yes, maybe eventually, Randykitty, you will be able to put D&N under your belt, because at sometime you will be able to garner enough support, which speaks volumes of wiki objectivity (notable is notable whether weak or strong). Also you state “lists of authors should not be included in an article unless "there are independent reliable sources discussing their involvement with the journal in more than an in-passing way." We had this discussion about Chomsky who has published in many journals at Wikipedia, but with no reliable sources discussing his involvement with those journals in more than an in-passing way. That is why I demanded evenly applied wiki rules. You came with a ferocity of edits at (as you have tried in the past) the D&N article, and as well as placing tags immediately at Inclusive Democracy & Takis Fotopopulos. As an editor who wants to improve articles, your approach has the opposite effect and can be assumed to be not neutral. You say concerning delete votes on the last attempt to delete D&N, "delete !votes, although they indeed are somewhat drowned in the walls of text that you and your friends were dropping on that debate." A debate is a debate where there is discussion. The "delete" votes and "keep" votes were counted and there were more votes to “keep” as in the other attempts to delete D&N. Why are you accusing editors who help D&N as our "friends"? What proof do you have? Just because they help improve the article you think they are our friends? It is absurd. Furthermore, if you were bona fide and your problem is the quality of the article and not to get rid of the editors because you do not care for their replies, you could have proceeded to a Dispute Resolution procedure and why not open a new thread in the Administrators' Noticeboard with a relevant title. But what you did was to bring me and others to this board by calling us a "sect" and with accusations of WP:COI, WP:NPA etc. etc.. When you found out that your accusations do not have good basis, you came back to the purported problem of the content of the entry, which should be solved with the presence of informed editors about the content of the entry, and not within the context of an accusations thread, as you have just tried to cover over-"nor is this the place to deal with a content dispute" John sargis (talk) 22:09, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    And hop! Yet another wall of text. The issue here is not the previous AfD, nor am I at this point asking for the article to be deleted. And the fact that I took this article to AfD and has been kept does not mean that I am now barred from improving the article where necessary, because I would somehow be biased. Hardly anybody who participated in the AfD has ever tried to improve the article as you claimed. Please stay to the point, which is your aspersions on my integrity. Could an admin please look at the above evidence and, if found to be correct, block me for disruptive editing so that we can put an end to this nonsense? Thanks. --Randykitty (talk) 09:16, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Can someone summarise what the dispute is about in a few lines? The above is rather overwhelming, but I see lots of "other stuff exists" type arguments about why certain style conventions shouldn't apply to this article. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:03, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • The dispute started when I removed a list of contributors and a listing of the journal's editorial board from the article, per the reasoning given in WP:JWG, which is based on a broad consensus in the WikiProject Acadmeic Journals: contributors or editorial board members should only be listed if reliable sources exist that discuss in depth the importance of their contributions for the journal. The reason why we are here is that the above group of editors argued that there exist articles on other journals or magazines that also have such lists and that the fact that I wanted to remove these lists in this particular article showed that I am biased and whatnot. It's the latter personal attacks that brought us here. Somewhere in the above walls of text more such attacks and failures to assume good faith are hidden. Of the group of editors involved, at least one (John sargis) has a COI. The other editors involved almost exclusively edit this article and two related ones (Takis Fotopoulos and Inclusive Democracy). I think this basically sums up the walls of text above (and on Talk:Democracy & Nature). --Randykitty (talk) 13:13, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    You tried the exact same tactic last year and failed to delete D&N, so again this year you attempt it. Does this not obviously show some type of bias by expanding your effort to all three related articles (D&N, Inclusive Democracy and Takis Fotopoulos) rapidly adding tags without any genuine discussion? One wonders what the motivation is of your edits, since you now say, “nor am I at this point asking for the article to be deleted”, which still implies your plan for deletion. No one can restrict you (or anyone else) from making suggestions about improving any entry you like. But the issue of motives is very different and this is what we examine here, particularly as you immediately questioned my own motives and personally attacked me and other editors as a “sect”, etc. Prove to me this simultaneous attack on all related articles’ timeline is a coincidence, not unrelated nor politically motivated.

    D&N article: 22 Aug. 13:40 Randykittyk begins editing--3 edits 23 Aug. 11:14 Johnsargis does 3 edits “ “ 11:38 Randykitty does 1 edit “ “ 16:51 Johnsargis does 1 edit 24 Aug. 17:08 Randykitty does 11 edits, @ 17:22 RK adds “Cleanup Tag” 24 Aug. 5:08 Panlis does 4 edits “ “ 9:14 Randykitty does 2 edits “ “ 10:57 Panlis does 2 edits 24 Aug. 11:09 Randykitty does an edit “Take It To Talk” and does 3 more edits

    ID article:

    23 Aug. 17:42 Randykitty begins editing with

    tag plus 4 more edits

    29 Aug. 16:08 IP editor helpful edit. Takis article

    23 Aug. 17:53 RandyKitty begins edits with

    tag plus 5 more edits

    24 Aug. 4:41 Panlis does 1 edit 1 Sept. 6:18 Marcocapelle does helpful edit John sargis (talk) 13:40, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    • You want proof? How about the fact that in the timespan you mention here I edited dozens of other articles, deleted dozens more, took one or two to AfD, etc etc. Where's your proof that I am concentrating on "your" articles? Where's any proof of political bias in any of my edits anywhere? Simple: anything any body does to "your" articles that doesn't go in the direction that you want is, per definition, politically biased. Perhaps it's time for some self-reflection here. --Randykitty (talk) 13:45, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I never said you only concentrated on the articles. I am showing a timeline where on 23 August your first edits at Inclusive Democracy and Takis Fotopoulos were tags at 17:42 and 17:53 respectively, and on 24 August at 17:08 you add the tag to D&N. If there is not some bias, then prove it. Why did you add those tags in such rapid succession at the articles. It could be construed that you are going after those articles.John sargis (talk) 14:11, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • The fact that other articles don't follow those guidelines should probably be disregarded, unless lack of compliance is so widespread that it calls into question whether the guidelines are indeed widely accepted. It seems to be perfectly reasonable to me to request that sources are provided. Personally, I wouldn't be so insistent that those sources need to demonstrate the importance of the contributors to the journal - it seems a valid matter of interest that notable people have contributed - but if the guidelines reflect consensus, then they should be respected. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:28, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Wow at the intensity of the WP:WALLEDGARDEN here. RandyKitty's edits were perfectly in line with WP:JWG, and the, let's call them 'anti-Randykitty advocates', consist of WP:SPA accounts with close ties to 'D&N' itself, and sat on the Editorial board of the journal, of often published in the niche journal. I've brought the article mostly inline with our guidelines at WP:JWG. WP:JWG is not a 'hard law', so deviations from it can be warranted from time to time, but I've yet to see a justification for doing so here. I'm not convinced the journal is notable, but if it is to exist, it should comply with our guidelines on the subject. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 13:48, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Everybody who has ever read a theoretical journal of political nature is well aware of the fact that a basic element of its notability is who used to contribute to it, either as a writer or an editor. If you strip the D&N entry (or any similar journal entry), from the names of its contributors, then it could be easily classified by those who never liked it to be listed in Wikipedia FOR POLITICAL REASONS (disguised under some bureaucratic rules) as not notable enough, and then be deleted accordingly. I challenge Randykitty and his friend Headbomb to provide us with a list of similar significant theoretical journals of political nature in wikipedia which do implement the rule they invoke. IF THEY CANNOT PROVIDE SUCH A LIST THEN THEIR GAME SHOULD BE CLEAR TO EVERYBODY! 165.120.27.172 (talk) 14:38, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I hope whomever tries to ban us under wiki puppetry rule did their homework, because if it is proved we are not puppetry puppets of any sort for which there is a wiki rule, then I suppose any editor who attempts to ban us under that rule, is open for harassment. And it would give further credence to our other arguments in this dispute.John sargis (talk) 16:36, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Of course, the examples mentioned betray only utter ignorance of the subject. D&N was not a political science journal, as a presumably ignoramus w/p editor classified it. D&N belongs to the same kind of theoretical journals of political nature as The Nation, Monthly Review, New Statesman and many other similar journals where lists of contributors and editors are abundant-as they should be!165.120.27.172 (talk) 15:41, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    These three are categorized as magazines; if that's the case for D&N, then it should follow instead WP:WikiProject Magazines/Writing guide; if it's peer reviewed, then it needs to abide by WP:JWG. Also, involved editors are welcome to fix any other non-abiding article. Finally, any potential COI must be disclosed, or else that's an easy ban to apply. fgnievinski (talk) 02:55, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Given the extensive evidence presented above by John sargis and Panlis of their continued failures to assume good faith, their POV editing with a conflict of interest, and their clear WP:NOTHERE attitude, I propose that they be topic banned from editing any article related to Inclusive Democracy. --Randykitty (talk) 10:08, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    • Support as nom. Given that these are the only articles that they edit, an indefinite block could also be appropriate. Not sure what should be done about the ranting IP. --Randykitty (talk) 10:08, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • REJECT. Banning other editors, simply because their views on how the form of presentation of an entry should be is different from that of an administrator, despite the fact, (as they have shown here and in the past), they may have a vastly superior knowledge on a topic they are interested in than an administrator who has a view on almost everything under the sun in tens of thousands of edits, is not just ‘keeping up with the rules’ . It is a pure form of authoritarianism , if not fascism. In a democratic form of organization, particularly one dealing with knowledge, you fight what you do not like with words, not bans! Every authoritarian regime in the past had always some bureaucratic rules at hand to justify its actions. No originality here. I thought however that Wikipedia was genuinely trying to create an alternative democratic way of presenting knowledge. If bona fide editors do not intervene to stop these purely fascist practices, this could well be the end of Wikipedia as an alternative form of encyclopaedia. In fact, many people would prefer in such a case an orthodox encyclopaedia, which at least is controlled and written by people who do know what they talk about and do not just hide behind bureaucratic rules masquerading as democratic, which could easily be used the way I described. Needless to add that in such a Wikipedia I don’t wish to have any further involvement and therefore I don’t give a damn if the Randykittys of this world ban my ‘ranting’, as he 'politely' called it!165.120.27.172 (talk) 13:52, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Reject Randykitty your sophistry is unparalleled. In your reason for banning/blocking you say: "Given that these are the only articles that they edit…". Let me remind you of what you said at D&N talk 24 Aug. @ 8:47: “You are under no obligation to clean up any article”. So, you want to get us banned on the one hand because we edit only “inclusive democracy” related articles, but on the other hand you claim we are under no obligation to edit any other article. So how does one hold two opposing viewpoints and not be in contradiction, bad faith, or bias? I do not know. Please instruct. You also assumed an IP editor and I are the same person. Your assumption is proven wrong as the two (or one as you would have it) of us have not been banned by wiki puppet rules. Another editor (headbomb) corroborated your wrong assumption and included Panlis in that he thought that we three would get banned as sockmeat puppets. That did not work, because someone, a sensible editor I assume, probably did a check and found out we are all different IPs. Thus headbomb's assumption is wrong. As far as assuming good faith, at the administrator page 24 August@ 21:43 I said I had no proof you have a political bias. In light of these wrong assumptions others must reject your proposal also. Thank you. John sargis (talk) 14:42, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Reject. This is a hideous twist of the events! Bad faith was a thing demonstrated, -to say the very least disproportionally- by the user Randykitty in the debate both in the Talk Page and inhere, and I will try to show why in a somehow concise but I feel plausible way:
    a) the user began an activity of repeatedly putting tags and asking for citation demands over, first, the need for such a list and, secondly, the notability of the contributors of the journal themselves, despite the obvious non-agreement in the entry's Talk Page. This naturally led to edit warring and relatively heated debate in an entry which he had attempted to delete last year, something that had been solemnly rejected by all other users who participated in the dialogue back then --and these users were not only John Sargis and I- but uninvolved users as well apart from the ones who are being accused of WP:COI here.
    b) While the editors and I tried to address his, considered as sensible, issues in the journal's Talk Page by focusing primarily on his activity but at the same time without disconnecting his proven bias towards the entry (another indication of which is that he still virtually claims the journal is not notable despite last year's clear decision which had followed abundant documentation about its notability-to which of course turned a blind eye-, and when now implicitly shows his recurrent intentions when he writes "nor am I at this point asking for the article to be deleted”) as Randykitty would very much like them to, he jumped to accusing us in this forum, of WP:COI, WP:POV etc.
    c) This happened without him trying in the first place to use a Dispute Resolution route or post a related to the problematic content subject in here according to the same procedure, and ask for third opinions about the very issues debated in the Talk Page. His primary action in this board was to "tag" and accuse us of WP:COI, WP:PA etc. with the aim to get rid of all dissidents by blocking us. Getting rid of editors involved with the entry and having some experience with it (something that of course does not constitute WP:COI etc.) would be a definite way serving his claimed favor of potentially deleting it in the near future- as is more than evident now from the above.
    d) He showed once more his bias against the entry and his aim just to punish the older editors of the entry for not comforming to all of his demands, when he neglected the important effort to improve the entry that was taking place during the debate and indeed attempted to address mainly his own demands for citations, clean up etc.; just indicatively, sorry for the dropping [1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16][17][18][19]
    To the naked eye this simply cannot be called "bad faith", by any interpretation, against the user Randykitty as he blatantly accuses me and the rest, and and it is at least disorientating if not a clear mark of authoritarianism to use such a characterization as an "argument" in order to block us from editing an entry based on argumentation and the WP rules.
    e) Even worse, Randykitty was led to the point of essentially "blackmailing" all uninvolved users who happen to read the debate here in case we don't get "assorted" (i.e. blocked from editing the entry and even better for him as he declared, get blocked ad infinitum) when he blatantly stated that "Eventually, some uninvolved editors will get around to this and wade through the wall of accusations that has been thrown up above and, if they'll find that you are correct, I'll be swiftly desyssopped and indefinitely blocked from editing here." -a statement which is a blatant act of self-victimization and emotional "blackmailing" to his favor. And this based on the fact that he has indeed the fluency to do thousands of edits, while I and other editors, as I mentioned in the debate, have not the same time and objective ability to help more with the Wikipedia project as I would like to and this is I believe a legitimate reason of maintaining a "sole-purpose" activity, particularly when I and the rest of editors demonstrate good faith as I clearly showed above, in contrast to Randykitty's direct aim to shut off anyone who doesn't comform to all his demands, that is now more than evident (his initiative says it all). Since as I tried to demonstrate above, no WP:PA was intended (something explicitly clarified by all other parts in the debate) --and calling someone that s/he maintains a bias towards an entry when it is based on his very deeds is not a "personal attack"--, this user, based on his experience, is constantly disorienting in order to pass his agenda: to eventually delete the entry - An aim explicitly demonstrated by his related history and revealed by his own very recent sayings, which I feel I plausibly exposed above.Panlis (talk) 16:37, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment I think that the involved parties have summed up their views very well above and request appropriate measures and closure of this thread. --Randykitty (talk) 16:57, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support this on the grounds of a conflict of interest that the editors concerned appear unwilling to step away from. Also, when an editor states "I hope whomever tries to ban us under wiki puppetry rule did their homework, because if it is proved we are not puppetry puppets of any sort for which there is a wiki rule, then I suppose any editor who attempts to ban us under that rule, is open for harassment", I start to think that action further than a topic ban is justified. No one should be subject to harassment for raising concerns about sockpuppetry, whether they prove to be accurate or not. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:19, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment If you read the thread you will read that we were harassed and taunted as being sockpuppets several times over several days--just don't talk the talk. Yes, right or wrong wiki is always right. Wiki hides behind waves and waves of rules, some of which we pointed out are contradictory and asked why they were not evenly applied, we have to muck through, and we became the problem--sect, sockpuppets, etc.--while Randykitty portrayed himself as victim while all the time he carries all the weapons, sorry I mean rules. Thank you. John sargis (talk) 21:48, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
        • Comment John, I don't think I accused anybody here of socking. At the start of this thread, I only remarked that I thought you had once forgotten to sign in. You said you didn't and I left it at that, that's what we here in this rules-infested harassing and taunting wiki call "assuming good faith", but a you have amply demonstrated, you're incapable of that. Socking is not the topic of this thread at all, that's your lack of AGF, personal attacks, and COI editing. Funny that you keep coming back all the time to this non-existent socking accusation, one would almost be tempted to think that you feel guilty... --Randykitty (talk) 22:03, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support, the editors and IP in question have shown repeated and unrepentant uncivil behaviour, including various personal attacks, and have shown they cannot edit neutrally and level-headedly in light of their conflict of interest. WP:SPA certainly apply. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 12:56, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Reject. I have no the intention or the time to spend on this nonsense but I’m gonna tell my opinion and gonna cast a vote just because user Panlis made a reference to my name. I took a short look and I have to say that although the users Panlis and John sargis maybe have a conflict of interest it’s also clear that the user Randykitty is totally biased against the entry of Democracy and Nature (not accidentally last year he tried to delete the entry). Although references have been made to him for other similar entries (political radical left journals) who are suffering from similar problems Randykitty was repeatedly ignoring them saying he has not the time, but, still, it seems has the time to apply these rules only to this specific entry and make such a fuss for it. At the moment that there are articles in the international press regarding the decline of the numbers of editors at the Wikipedia some users still spend hours and days trying to ban other users who in fact never tried to disturb the Wikipedia functions but just to keep a well known radical left political journal in the Wikipedia pages, although this may mean argumentative dialogues etc. which probably are simply boresome and bothersome for the former. If the users Panlis and John sargis gonna be banned then also the user Randykitty should be banned. Reject. KosMal (talk) 07:11, 11 September 2015 (UTC)--Randykitty (talk) 07:54, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Reject. Panlis and John sargis may have not contributed to other pages not related to Inclusive Democracy, but this does not necessarily mean they are acting on bad faith. I cannot find an issue with their COI, as I have seen (see the links in their comments above) their strong will to positively contribute and cooperate in order for their edits to conform with the (admittedly, quite complex) Wikipedia writing rules. As I can see it, this disagreement was brought to this board by Randykitty too quickly, instead of following the Wikipedia rules for dispute resolution, which shows to me that Randykitty had assumed bad faith too soon. Since then, this has grossly escalated way out of proportion. Notwithstanding the rather heated tone coming from some of the editors' reactions to this issue (a tone which, while it can be understood, I do hope is reconsidered by the editors) I see it as extremely harsh to ban them. Fusedmilk (talk) 07:39, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Fusedmilk: I'm impressed to see that an editor with just 4 edits found their way here. Dispute resolution is for resolving conflicts about content. Personal attacks and failure to assume good faith, which is the issue here, go to ANI. --Randykitty (talk) 07:49, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Randykitty: I came here and started following this issue when my user name was mentioned above (because I had recently made a small edit in the Democracy & Nature page). I am not saying I am a Wikipedia expert (I still have a tiny editing history anyway), but I would say I have been familiarising myself with the regulations to the degree of being able to positively contribute here. As I said above, my opinion is that the issue escalated needlessly, as bad faith was assumed (and hence brought to ANI) too quickly from you. Fusedmilk (talk) 12:17, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Randykitty, I am also very impressed by your ‘impartial’ zeal to have any possible reject vote of your proposal dismissed. Shall we assume on the basis of your comment on Fusedmilk’s reject vote that only full-time Wikipedia editors, (who could not possibly have the time to do any other job when they make over 60,000 edits in over two years), do qualify to make comments in Wikipedia? Very interesting thought but I want to hear also the views of other administrators on this, not just yours and the couple of your editor friends.165.120.27.172 (talk) 08:45, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes, but don’t pretend to be an impartial observer, a kind of a fair judge because you obviously are not, unless we talk about a complete travesty of justice. You are obviously very much involved in this and you simply cannot decide whose view should be taken into account and whose not. I HOPE OTHER TRULY NON-INVOLVED ADMINISTRATORS WILL EXPRESS THEIR VIEW ON THE MATTER WHICH, DUE TO RANDYKITTY’S VENDETTA, HAS ALREADY TAKEN THE FORM OF A W/P SCANDAL165.120.27.172 (talk) 11:57, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Dolovis and page creation problems

    Apologies for the length of this report. The tl;dr version is that I believe Dolovis (talk · contribs)' page creation habits routinely ignore policy, guidelines and past consensus, and represent a drain on community time that far outweighs what little value they provide. I recommend this be stopped. Resolute 23:47, 31 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Dolovis is an editor with whom myself and a few other editors have had a long and contentious history with regarding article creation. He first came to ANI back in 2011 in which he was creating and/or moving pages and gaming the system as part of a diacritics war that was brewing at the time. He was briefly banned from moving pages, and later re-banned from moving any pages related to diacritics after immediately breaching a promise to reform his behaviour in that area. To the best of my knowledge, that ban remains active. (He is also under a BASC imposed one-way interaction ban with Djsasso, whom Dolovis has targeted more than once, and most recently with scrutiny-evading sockpuppet - that condition placed as part of an unblock request that a clearly divided ArbCom reluctantly granted.)

    I have long been an extreme critic of Dolovis' habits of creating one or two sentence sub-stubs of marginally notable or completely non-notable hockey players, often relying on the bare minimum allowed by the WP:NHOCKEY SNG (recent example: Simon Suoranta; literally a couple thousand more examples available) - inevitably using just a stats sheet or player profile page from a league site as the sole source. His other big habit is to create redirects for non-notable players to any random article that might kind of fit, pretty much just on speculation that said player might become notable someday. I have long felt that these creations are ego-driven efforts to simply grab the first edit for as many new pages as he can, and not done out of a true desire to improve the project. Or, as Ravenswing recently put it: "This isn't any attempt to improve the encyclopedia; this is a manic rush to Game High Score for article 'creation.'" Dolovis' only real goal with Wikipedia is to create as many new pages as he can, and he has shown complete and utter contempt for virtually every policy or guideline that stands in his way. The result is that editors who also monitor in this space have to spend an inordinate amount of time curating and reviewing these articles, while his contempt for policies has caused a great deal of wasted time for editors and admins at WP:AFD, WP:REFUND, WP:RFD - By my count, Dolovis has had over 100 articles deleted at AFD alone; Ravenswing targeted about 75 articles of his for AFD in January 2014. Only ONE ended up as a keep. Four others were no consensus closes, the rest deleted. This represented a massive waste of time for those of us who had to do the research after creation because Dolovis clearly and obviously did not do any research before creation.

    The problems with his creations go far deeper than just a disregard for notability criteria. He has created two speculative articles on NHL teams that don't exist - Quebec NHL team and Las Vegas NHL team - that, aside from being failures of WP:CRYSTAL, I have realized are unattributed copy-paste jobs from Potential National Hockey League expansion. In short, Dolovis is creating copyright violations because it is easier to rip off someone else's work to try and grab that first edit for any future NHL team. Another of his recent creation, 2014 KHL Junior Draft, is likewise an unattributed copy of someone else's article (in this case, 2013 KHL Junior Draft). He has also previously tried to speculate on future NHL teams as well - in this case, ironically, one of the few examples of his putting real work into something (assuming it wasn't likewise just ripped off from someone else's work).

    Dolovis has deliberately created articles on non-notable players and failed to defend them when PRODded (most recent example: Pavel Karnaukhov), because he knows he can just run to WP:REFUND and request a history undeletion to get that first edit back if the player later becomes notable and someone else recreates the article. This is something that has been picked up on by others. This only wastes the time of three separate editors: whomever reviews the article, who deletes it at PROD, and who restores the article later. This is blatant gaming the system. In that thread, Ravenswing also shows numerous links of Dolovis misrepresenting sources to try and claim a player meets an easier criteria of NHOCKEY or misrepresenting NHOCKEY itself to try and justify these creations.

    Dolovis is even worse when it comes to redirect creation. When he knows there is no chance of an article surviving more than a few hours, he just redirects pages to random, somewhat related targets with no regard for the fact that his actions actively hinder the search function. In fact, despite having these redirects deleted at least five times in the past two years, I STILL had to take two more to RFD this week, which are again heading to a delete. As of right now, he has 17 redirects listed at RFD, and every single one is leaning delete. And I am preparing to RFD dozens more for the exact same reason.

    His non-hockey creations are no better, This article was clearly created as a synthesis of Van Gogh self-portrait (1889) - Dolovis obviously does not have those sources and never read them. He simply copied them from the latter article and reworded a couple passages to "create" his version. And then there is this. That might be the laziest article creation in Wikipedia history. He only expanded it (likely a cleaned up version of Google Translate) after someone else reviewed and prodded it.

    All of this is just a long winded way of saying that Dolovis' page creations are of such a low value, that his continual disregard for policy and guidelines - including policies on copyright violations - and that the time wasted in cleaning up, PRODding, AFDing and RFDing is so high, that allowing Dolovis to continue creating pages like this represents such a drain on the community that I believe it needs to be stopped. This has been going on for years. As such, I would like to propose that Dolovis be indefinitely banned from creating any new pages in Wikipedia main space. Given he brags that he has started over 5800 pages, I would suggest that he could direct his future time into expanding those 5800 two sentence sub stubs. Resolute 23:47, 31 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    • Ah yes, Dolovis. Indef-blocked after a drawer full of socks and unblocked with a minor edit restriction--see this note by Thryduulf. That seems to have come about quite easily. Drmies (talk) 03:13, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I completely endorse all Resolute has said and support an indef ban on new article creation by Dolovis. Dolovis is not only a disruptive presence, who's created an appalling amount of work for those who've had to clean up his messes, but he's been extremely tendentious over the years, filibustering at great length to keep his edit count high ... often at times in complete contradiction to arguments he made the week before. As you can see yourself from his edit history, he's far less interested in improving the encyclopedia as in racking up his new creation count, and has found the creation of implausible, desperately obscure redirects an easy way to do it.

      Honestly, I would really appreciate hearing from those in the BASC process who felt that Dolovis' well-merited indef block ought to be reversed. Leaving aside the minor edit restriction to which he agreed (and which he just last week sought to overturn), what led them to believe that he had changed his ways, what assurances did they receive that he would do so, and what monitoring did they undertake to ensure that he did? Ravenswing 06:16, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Can someone give some background here? The block log only says that it was a block evasion block (which seems odd to create new accounts since they wouldn't inflate your edit count) since the 2012 block and thus the standard offer that was the main basis for the unblock was for sock evasion and this doesn't seem to be the problem here. Is there a discussion about a redirect or article-creation ban (I think there's at least one other user with an ARBCOM ban with that kind of wording)? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:38, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    From the sockpuppet investigation, you can see that another account was being used to request deletion of articles created by Ravenswing and Djsasso, using the same rationale used in requests for deletion of articles created by Dolovis. isaacl (talk) 07:07, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Ok, so still nothing related to this specific problem (ignoring that the only response seemed to be "look at my edit count, I couldn't have done this"). Again, I'm not seeing a history of the new article abuse problem so examples of recent antics (there isn't a huge deleted edit history so there actually aren't a lot of editing articles that became deleted) would be helpful and then we're back to potential solutions: a proposal that Dolovis be banned from six months from creating a new article or redirect without the approval of an admin? (I'd suggest AFC but requiring admins would be a higher standard and one I've seen here before). Is so, suggest that and see if there's a consensus supporting that. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:01, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I didn't want to go too far into his SPI stuff since it is tangental to his article creation problem, and this was long enough as it is. But that was a hypocritical example of Dolovis using a sock in bad hand fashion to revenge target some of DJSasso and Ravenswing's oldest articles created using the exact same rationale as Ravenswing presented in nominating seven dozen of Dolovis' pages for deletion. Part of the reason why his deleted contributions list is deceptive is the fact that he knowningly creates articles that won't pass a PROD or AFD, but wants the first edit in history so he can request a history restore at WP:REFUND when someone else re-creates an article after the subject does become notable. But in short, he's had over 100 articles deleted at AFD, he's got about 100 redirects at RFD right now - he continues to create redirects of the type that have been consistently deleted at RFD for a few years now even though he is well aware of the consensus against them - and god only knows how many have been deleted through PROD, only to be restored later at REFUND. The long and the short of it is that we are at several hundred pages deleted or about to go, and what does stick, sticks only because they meet NHOCKEY or other SNGs by the skin of their teeth. Even then, those sub stubs themselves offer no value. Given his history of misrepresenting sources, it would honestly take more time than what any of us has to investigate and verify all of those pages as well. Ravenswing spent close to a month last year reviewing and AFDing less than 20% of his creations, at that time. And Dolovis is now getting into creating copyvios, which was the final impetus for this report. He's damned lucky I only picked up on those after his ill-advised request to have one edit restriction removed was archived, otherwise I would have presented this to arbcom in that process. As it is, it wastes our time to have to review this junk, it wastes an admin's time to deal with PROD requests on articles he knows won't stick, it wastes an admin's time at REFUND and it waste's everyone's time at AFD and RFD. Resolute 13:13, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Break

    as well as
    Anton Karlsson is archetypal of the page creation problem. Dolovis created this as an empty redirect to a page with no information about the player on 20 February 2014. It was prodded; Dolovis removed the prod; it was listed and then deleted at Rfd. Another editor created a page about this player some time later, when they became notable. Subsequently, Dolovis requested the history of their redirect be merged with this page, and is now credited as the creator of this content, even though they contributed exactly nothing to it. This is an WP:EDITCOUNTITIS problem, but a problem nonetheless.
    The bigger problem, of course, is that of the 111 pages listed above, none have survived a deletion discussion (counting the 103 currently listed which are very likely to be deleted shortly, their discussions are really formalities at this point) and this wastes the community's time (it takes, by my count, 312 edits to list the 103 currently listed, not counting the actual discussion, plus subsequently taking up admins' time closing those discussions and deleting the redirects, plus time wasted when Dolovis requests history merges when someone else creates an article). Banning Dolovis from creating pages will not harm the encyclopedia at all, and will give other editors the opportunity to be given appropriate credit when they create pages about notable hockey players, which will further encourage the creation of those articles, which greatly benefits the project.
    Thus (tl;dr) I support banning Dolovis from creating pages in any space, because I'm sure they'll just find a way to game a more limited ban. I have no comment on the socking issue as it seems unrelated to the page creation issue, and doesn't seem to be a current issue anyway. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 13:51, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support I am going to keep this pretty brief because Resolute has done a very good job of summing up the issue. Dolovis continually creates articles he know will be almost instantly deleted. And when he can't even remotely argue an article is valid he creates a redirect to some random remotely related page that often has no information on the subject. He has been an extremely disruptive editor in all manner of ways from his ban on diacritics editing to the sockpuppeting to the creation of clearly non-notable pages that are a waste to the communities time. I actually support a full site ban. But I am happy to accept a page creation ban as a first step to see if that helps the situation. -DJSasso (talk) 16:37, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support a six-month topic ban against Dolovis creating articles or redirects without having it approved by an administrator. Proposing a dozens redirects will just annoy someone but if there's a new article, there's a chance to get it approved. I'm going to give a bit of leeway to see if Dolovis can propose articles of any worth to be created which would give us support to remove the ban in the future. Otherwise, there's no way to tell if the problems have been resolved or not. If there's no examples or new articles of the right quality to base this on, we can evaluate extending this in the future. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 20:18, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    This is a very reasonable response; certainly Dolovis should be allowed to create articles if they are worth creating, and not just redirects or stubs on players which they admit are non-notable. However, I propose that this restriction be placed for 14 months. Why 14? Because this will actually prevent Dolovis from creating the mass of redirects from players drafted in the next year's draft. Otherwise, it's not really a sanction, they will pretty much automatically wait it out. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 00:25, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    In six months, Dolovis can either show that this restriction is no longer needed (by pointing to actual articles created after approval by an admin) or we'll see that Dolovis has done nothing in that way because Dolovis only wants to create stubs and redirects. If there are literally zero edits because this topic ban is essentially a de facto ban for that person (for a lot of editors, a minor topic ban causes a complete meltdown, but we'll see here), then we'll all better off I guess. The personality type that sockpuppets that much and argues that much just after agreeing to restrictions tells me it won't take six months for another problem to surface that this restriction won't matter much. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:17, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    On the face of it, this sounds reasonable. My worry, however, is that at no stage in his Wikipedia career has Dolovis embraced the premise of "You're right. I'm wrong. I recognize that I broke the rules, I'm sorry and I won't do it again." Over and over again, he argues for delay -- that some other appeals process be brought into play, that he'll agree to an entirely voluntary, short-term (and unenforceable) moratorium on objectionable behavior, that deadlines be extended for further comment. What would a six-month restriction solve that his nine-month block didn't?

    Beyond that, who's the poor bastard admin who's going to get saddled with doing all the notability research on dozens of new articles, an area in which Dolovis is notoriously indifferent? Ravenswing 06:32, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    • No one's advocating "destroying" anyone. Nor is any editor prevented from being a productive contributor to the encyclopedia by being enjoined from new article creation. Not counting redirects, I've created fewer than a half-dozen articles a year, and I've only created two in the last three years. Over 40,000 edits in, I figure I've found other ways to contribute. Ravenswing 08:01, 4 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Sorry for butting into such an important discussion — I followed user:Resolute here. So this is where all the editors on Wikipedia are spending their time? Wow!
    Anyway, I won’t stay around long (don’t want to get in trouble), but the opening statement by Resolute got me worried, because I also create a fair number of wp:stubs that end up in the wiki-garbage-can, but did not realize that this could put me on the wrong side of the wiki-law. I hope I am taking things out of context, but sorry, I don't have the time to investigate. Ottawahitech (talk) 14:02, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Response by Dolovis

    • Response by Dolovis: When I joined Wikipedia in 2010, I came across thousands one line stub articles about professional ice hockey articles. I found these articles helpful as they encouraged me to become active as an editor to work to improve such articles. One editor in particular, User:Patken4, had created thousands of stub articles about hockey players, (see Roy Mitchell (ice hockey), Randy Murray (ice hockey), and Darrell May (ice hockey) for just three of such examples) and I could see that much more such work was needed in this area. Following the example of Patken4, I volunteered myself into the IceHockey Project to create and improve articles about notable hockey players pursuant to WP:NHOCKEY. Working diligently as a GOOD FAITH editor, I created starter articles for not only NHL players, but also for other major and “Top level” leagues as defined by WP:NHOCKEY and WP:NHOCKEY/LA, including Swedish Hockey League, the Finnish Liiga, Kontinental Hockey League, Czech Extraliga. I dedicated myself to creating articles for all 808 major league players who played in the now defunct World Hockey Association, completing this task on June 4, 2014 (see talk page “thanks” for my efforts). Along the way I have also made many thousands of edits to improve other existing articles.
    I believe in and have remained loyal to the Wikipedia Project, despite what I have perceived as bullying from some editors, including Resolute and DJSasso, who I feel have been harassing me since first joining the IceHockey Project. I have certainly made mistakes. I used to be involved in discussions, and often found myself disagreeing with Resolute and DJSasso – but following such discussions, I always tried to follow the consensus - whether I agreed with it or not. I now try to avoid such discussions.
    I firmly believe that creating stub articles encourages others to add, build, improve, and work collaboratively on on this never ending project called Wikipedia, and yes, I am proud that I have contributed over 5,800 new articles to Wikipedia. I am not concerned if some have been since deleted, because I do not own them and I welcome the efforts of others to contribute to Wikipedia. The harsh welcome felt by most new editors discourages the creation of new articles, but I believe that new articles are the life-blood of Wikipedia. If one takes a look at my edit history, you will find no disruptive editing (yes, I have made mistakes, but I have never tried to disrupt Wikipedia). Despite Resolute's numerous and loud claims that I am a bad faith editor, I am not. Following Resolute's criticism that I was making one line “stub-stub” articles, I tried to take his criticism constructively to improve my stubs to be better. A look at my recent creations will show a pattern of making stub articles for notable subject pursuant to WP:IDEALSTUB, as a starting point for other editors to build upon. Resolute is trying to make the claim that I am disruptive because I am creating too many articles, so therefore I am creating work for the other editors. Following Resolute's thinking, if there were nothing there, there would be nothing to complain about. Look at his uncivil comment following my creating an article for CalgaryNEXT where he writes “As usual, someone else is left to clean up a lazy mess created only as an ego trip” [36]. This was not created as an "ego-trip". It was created because it is a notable subject pursuant to WP:GNG and deserves to have an article. That is but one example of the incivility that I have been forced to accept from Resolute for many years.
    Concerning the redirects I have created: The redirects under discussion here were created over the past 5 years by a number of different editors including myself, User:Alaney2k, User:Canuckian89, User:One95, User:Shootmaster 44, User:Uncleben85, and User:USA1168. What was once considered an acceptable and even helpful edit pursuant to WP:RPURPOSE as a ”sub-topics or other topics which are described or listed within a wider article”, are now vilified as “bad faith” edits. I don't believe any of these redirects were created in bad faith. If there is a new consensus and guideline stating that it is wrong for players to be redirected to a list of players drafted by NHL teams, then I would happily follow it. Dolovis (talk) 21:30, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Just so you know, stating that you have created 5800 new articles doesn't do much to tamp down on the concerns that you are game-playing everyone by creating nonsense stubs that get deleted and trying to jump back in when someone else eventually does create the page. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:00, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I was just addressing the issue of “5800 articles” as raised above by Resolute above. These are not “nonsense stubs”. These are deserving articles created pursuant to WP:Stub. Resolute claims that I have had “over 100 articles deleted at AFD alone”, but what he doesn't say is most of those were AfD'd only after the IceHockey Project lowered its WP:NHOCKEY bar and then targeted such articles for deletion (only articles created by me, not the hundreds created by others). He also doesn't say that these articles were brought directly to AfD where they were summarily deleted pursuant to the new standards for inclusion (when a PROD likely would have been more efficient and less time consuming). I do not create article knowing they will be deleted. I create articles so others can build upon them. Dolovis (talk) 22:41, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    They were AfD'd because they lacked any substantive coverage so as to pass GNG. We raised the bar on that one section of NHOCKEY because you were abusing the hell out of it and trying to use it as a shield to justify creation of articles on non-notable subjects. If you actually looked for sources to ensure a GNG pass before creation - rather than make the rest of us do it for you - the number of games a minor league player had in his career would never have entered the equation. Resolute 23:06, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry Dolovis, not buying it for a second. It is hilarious for you to claim there is no bad faith editing in your history given you have two active edit restrictions already, one for bad faith editing in the realm of diacritics, and the other for bad faith use of sockpuppets.
    You claiming now that you will suddenly follow any "new consensus" about not redirecting to draft articles now is curious given I hauled you to RFD FIVE TIMES in the last 18 months or so with such redirects deleted every single time, only to have you come back with yet another run of such creations afterward. This promise today is only being made because you are staring down a page creation ban, not because you respect a consensus that has existed for a long time.
    You have failed to address your cut and paste copyvios. You have failed to address your history of misrepresenting sources. You have failed to address the problem of you creating articles on subjects you know are not notable so you can have history restored later via REFUND. You have failed to address the fact that you will always do the absolute minimum per NHOCKEY - and in most cases, how you never even make the barest effort to look for sources beyond a website that is nothing but a stats page. I haven't mentioned it yet in this complaint, but in the cases where more stringent criteria has forced you to put bare effort in, I would also like you to address your habit of using blogs and other unreliable sources, WP:ROUTINE sources and sources with obviously trivial mentions while making little to no effort to find substantive coverage. This goes well beyond your habit of creating one or two sentence sub-stubs that are of no value, virtually never even bothering to look for sources that cover players in non-trivial, substantive fashion that WP:GNG requires. I gave you the benefit of the doubt when you started here and offered to work with you. And even though you were creating conflicts with others right out of the gate, I still tried to offer constructive advice - the very same advice you are being given four and a half years later and still ignoring four and a half years later. If my attitude towards you is negative today, it is because I have five years of bad faith actions to judge you by. In the end, the ultimate question is still to ask why the community should be forced to spend so much time cleaning up after you. Don't you think five years of having to fix the messes you create is more than enough? Resolute 22:59, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Resolute's argument is false deductive reasoning. He argues that because he has taken my edits to RfD, therefore I have made disruptive edits. Again, what Resolute fails to mention is that out of the hundreds of existing redirect edits, he targeted only my edits for deletion - even going so far as to apologize to another editor[37] who he inadvertently RfD'd with my edits. If there are any copyvios, they would inadvertent and minor, and should properly be be addressed through copy editing or appropriate attribution. Clearly, his RfD campaign is a personal vendetta against me and not against my editing, which falls within the standards of what other editors are doing. Dolovis (talk) 00:14, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    No, I apologized for Alaney for failing to notify him that one of his redirects was taken to RFD. My error there was simply assuming that they were all yours. As to the rest, you're just lashing out in desperation - much like you did the last time you were hauled to SPI and tried to accuse me of using a sockpuppet that voted against myself in deletion discussions to try and distract the discussion. I will once again note that you have failed to address any of the points I raised above, and you failed to answer the questions at the end. So I once again ask: how long should we be expected to fix the messes you leave behind? Resolute 01:18, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Dolovis, can we resolve the current issue here now? Would you be willing to agree to even a temporary ban on creating articles and redirects? Resolute's argument is that he has taken your edits to RFD which has deleted the redirects in the hundreds, you have an incorrect version of policy. The point is that the redirects and articles you created before (even years before) have been brought to RFD and a number have been deleted. My proposal is simply that you get an admin to approve of it which isn't a terrible chore if you've completed a decent drafts. If the issues with hockey redirects have resolved with your acknowledgment of the current policies, then I see zero issues at all here with my proposal. Else, you currently came back from an block for sockpuppetry, with an edit restriction, which I see that you're currently arguing to remove already and for which the few ARBCOM members who allowed you to return have said you either need to follow or you can retract the agreement and go back to the ban. So if you want people to think that you've seriously reformed, it would be a good idea for you to pre-emptively agree to resolving the problems that got you in trouble before. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:12, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    That is a rather gross oversimplification of my argument, actually. His redirects are only one part of the overall problem which, in short, is to do as little work as possible while trying to gain a "high score" for article creation, and leaving behind a morass of sloppy work that achieves so little value that it cannot hope to make up for the time spent cleaning up after him in multiple venues. Resolute 01:22, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The only person who appears to be concerned with my edit count is Resolute, and I will be happy to remove the “Userboxes” from my user page if they are annoying to Resolute or any other editors. Until now, my understanding was that editors should be aware of WP:REDDEAL when creating redirects, and that RDs to draft lists were otherwise acceptable for nn players. But if this is no longer the consensus, then I will refrain from redirects to NHL draft lists, and even help to start tagging other such redirects for deletion.
    As for article creation, I have long since demonstrated the ability to create sourced articles on notable topics (which is the benchmark for article creation). Viewing my edit history will confirm this. If there are exceptions, then please PROD them or otherwise bring them to my attention so the shortcomings can be addressed. Expecting me, or any editor, to create WP:Good articles on the first draft is not reasonable. Wikipedia is a collaborative effort. As discussed at WP:Article development, creating sourced Stub articles is an encouraged activity. If the notability of a subject is disputed, then it should be properly PRODed, or otherwise dealt with pursuant to Wikipedia:Deletion policy. Requiring Admins to move my drafts to main space will just create extra work for everyone. Dolovis (talk) 02:00, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    That is all pure BS. You know damn well that his argument isn't about the edit count on your page. It is the actions you are taking to boost it that are the issue. Creating articles that you know don't meet the notability requirement. That you have been told time and again don't meet the notability requirement. That are sourced to stat pages and blogs, which don't meet WP:GNG. All of this has been pointed out to you by a number of editors, your standard response to most people when they point it out is "Its not my job, its up to other people to come along and do it later". Except that it is your job, if you are creating an article you are expected to source it with reliable sources and to make sure they meet the WP:GNG. You have not demonstrated the ability to create sourced stub articles, a quick look through your created pages show that the vast majority are sourced to non-reliable sources. Then when the articles are inevitably deleted for non-notability you wait until you can ask at refund to restore your edit history once the person meets notability. I have even seen cases where you copy and pasted the content of deleted at afd articles (created by other people) where you then pasted the exact copy a month or two later as a "new creation". -DJSasso (talk) 02:43, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Resolute, I agree that it's a simplification of the concerns but given that ARBCOM very recently unblocked Dolovis and the little evidence that the actions are ongoing now, you'll be unlikely to find any admin will to block on that basis so I'm focusing on a resolution as to what can be shown now. Otherwise, Dolovis doesn't believe it's a problem at all. Just want everyone to be clear. We'll see from others but I still support the proposal as it provides the least amount of disruption to the project overall in exchange for resolving the largest number of concerns at the moment. And Dolovis, are you actually checking these sources in your hurry to create these articles? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 02:51, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Very easy to see it going on right now. Here is one he created within the last month. Only added to it (weeks later) when notified of a prod. [38]. Resolute also showed current examples of his lack of attribution on copy pastes which are current copyvio issues. You can't just focus on the here and now, because that is what the problem has been, here and now we issue a new minor restriction of some sort and he goes on and finds a way to circumvent it or some other policy to flaunt. Perhaps its at the point where it needs to go to Arbcom for a full case. -DJSasso (talk) 02:57, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • No pulling cross-wiki is fine. But his creation of the article consisted solely of "Marek Sikora is a Polish astronomer." with the only reference being his staff profile. Fine if that is the first edit in a series of edits. But he didn't go back to it until weeks later and it was about to be deleted. Either way I was just using that particular one as an example of its on-going nature. -DJSasso (talk) 03:17, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Marek Sikora (astronomer) was a listed as a hat note on the Marek Sikora article. Given that he appeared to be notable per WP:NACADEMICS, and had a Polish Wiki article, I chose to create the article rather than just wash the hat note (as I first thought to do). I agree it was a very weak start, and I have since expanded the article with text translated from the corresponding article in Polish. It is currently facing a PROD, and will be deleted unless another editor takes an interest in keeping it. Dolovis (talk) 03:18, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yeah so that's basically you guessing that there's enough notability, copying the Polish wiki text (without you independently verifying if it's true at all) and then leaving the really hard work for others, which is why I support the temporary six month topic ban from creating new articles at the moment. Do something else rather than create new stubs as it does sound disruptive. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 03:21, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Exactly, and that therein is the problem. Guessing at notability without going to the effort of actually providing the sources necessary to prove it. Wasting other editors time who have to prod it, then admins who have to do their own research to see if it is notable and then them deleting it. Even worse if it ends up at Afd where then multiple editors have to do that. If you can't source it to reliable sources then you shouldn't be creating it, if you don't know its notable then you definitely shouldn't be creating it. -DJSasso (talk)
    • @Ricky81682:. I'm not asking for a block - though I believe Ravenswing did. I am asking for an end to the time wasting caused by his mass creation of negative value pages. Due to his history, we already have to routinely check for both the existence of sources to meet a GNG pass, and to check that he isn't misrepresenting the paltry sources he does use. And now, given his cavalier response to the copyvio issue, we will have to check for that as well. And this rabbit hole still goes deeper than I have presented here. He routinely creates WP:CRYSTAL articles on potential draft picks a month or two before each year's NHL Entry Draft even though most of those players are not yet notable. For me, that is one instance where I just don't bother because I hate wasting the time of admins and editors at PROD and AFD when some of those articles would just be re-created a month later when notability IS achieved, but it is just another example of Dolovis looking for page creation high scores. In my view, the solution here is an indef ban from creating pages, to be lifted only when he demonstrates - via expanding a good number of his past creations - his willingness to (1) look for and accurately use sources that meet GNG before creation - meaning no more one-reference substubs relying exclusively on a stat sheet or blog ans (2) stop gaming the system via deliberate creation of bad redirects and of topics he knows aren't notable. Ravenswing, DJSasso and myself have been trying for years to hammer home the fact that GNG means non-trivial, substantive coverage in multiple reliable sources. Perhaps once he demonstrates that he will no longer ignore that via expansion and referencing of his past articles, and perhaps once he commits to follow that process going forward, such a ban could be lifted. Resolute 13:27, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support a six-month topic ban of Dolovis creating articles or redirects (uninvolved non admin) This is insane. It creates tons of work for others. Its inconsiderate and is simply gaming the system. I would also Support an indef ban on history merge requests of deleted pages more than a month old to stop the disruption in the future. AlbinoFerret 03:51, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Pursuant to WP:Notability a topic is presumed to merit an article if it meets either the GNG or the criteria outlined in a subject-specific guideline (i.e WP:NHOCKEY or WP:ACADEMIC). Once created, an article may still face deletion pursuant to the deletion policy. This is how Wikipedia works. The Marek Sikora article is the exception to the majority of the work I do on Wikipedia. That article was well-intentioned, and I did verify the sources used in the Polish article, and I still believe he is notable. I fully intended to go back to build the article, which I have done. I believe that my good work far outweighs the weak, and in the interest of resolving this issue I will make a proposition; I will take a voluntary one month break from creating articles, with the hope that Resolute and DJSasso will stop their uncivil comments and harassment towards me. I am a good faith editor who is doing my best to build and improve Wikipedia. Dolovis (talk) 04:02, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    You need more than a month off for those games. Your denail of a problem and trying to lessen the ban time is just IDHT. I think anyone who reads this section will support the bans. You are making work for editors and disrupting the project. AlbinoFerret 04:12, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    So, Dolovis -- you are admitting to doing nothing wrong, and you make no stipulations that you won't start the same behavior all over again 32 days from now ... nor does anything enjoin you from doing so 32 hours from now. What leads you to believe this would be an attractive offer? Ravenswing 06:42, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Per AlbinoFerret, I likewise support an indef ban from the WP:REFUND process. For anyone following this discussion seeking evidence concerning Dolovis' motives, he doesn't have merely several dozen requests at WP:REFUND, he's featured in several dozen archives. [39] I am very hard put to find an unselfish reason for such Wikilawyering, nor one justifying the time and energy spent by those active in that area to go through his requests. Ravenswing 06:20, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Isn't that a possible contribution history problem? I mean, that's assuming there is actually is a connected history, a refund request would have to required. Isn't the issue that WP:REFUND policy be so liberal (just any request) rather than asking if the request is actually related on a separate editor from the current history which is a different problem? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:42, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    If it was a article that had some long term editing that was recreated maybe. But whats being merged is redirects and tiny subs. It takes away the incentive to create them in the first place. To make sure that he is creating articles likely to survive an afd. If it looks like a problem the exception can be added that he ask an admin and point to this section as the reason for asking and an admin can decide if its a real article or just more "Im first" games before asking for a merge. AlbinoFerret 07:11, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support temporary article creation ban, also endorse indef REFUND ban. It looks like Dolovis has a long history of creating articles that have some serious issues with notability, so I think that a temporary ban from creating any new articles in any space (draft, mainspace, redirects, etc) is reasonable. Dolovis, I see you trying to justify your article creation but at no point do I actually see you really owning up to the fact that you've made several articles that had a lot of major issues with them. I feel that giving you a temporary ban will give you the incentive to go over policy and learn how to properly source articles for notability giving purposes. I'll be extremely blunt with this: this has been a long running problem and if things don't change after the temporary ban, you'll likely be facing a permanent ban from creating new articles - if not from editing altogether. I also endorse a permanent ban from requesting article history from REFUND, as I do think that the others make a good case showing that you're really only requesting the article history so you can have the article creation credit - not so you can improve the article. The thing is, numbers mean absolutely squat on Wikipedia. You can make a lot of pages but that doesn't necessarily make you a good editor or even really an asset to Wikipedia if the article quality is poor and others have to run behind you in a struggle to prove notability or delete the articles. Case in point: I remember a user named User:MoonMetropolis that created multiple pages that had serious notability issues. While they were ultimately blocked for sockpuppetry, their poor article creation history definitely gave people another reason to indef them. This is not your first time at ANI, as you've been reported multiple times in the past - and you've already been banned from moving pages. Heck in in 2013 you tried to ask for a topic ban to be removed but everyone successfully argued against giving you these permissions back. You really need to shape up because right now all you're doing is giving yourself enough WP:ROPE to justify someone arguing for you to be indefinitely blocked from editing. To be honest, I'm actually mildly surprised that they aren't asking for an indefinite ban, considering that you've repeatedly been reported at ANI and other boards since you signed up. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 08:49, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'd actually endorse a longer article creation ban than six months. I'd actually endorse a year, followed by a year's probation where he's only able to create articles via AfC. Considering that this has been an ongoing problem for years now, I'd actually also support an indef ban on mainspace creation and then after a year, he can create articles via AfC. As far as REFUND goes, that's still an indef since it looks like he's only doing this to grandstand, not to actually improve the article - a process that I think could really, really be disheartening to the people who took the time to create a newer version of the article that did pass notability guidelines. If someone other than him requests restoration then that's fine, but I don't think that Dolovis should be allowed to request article restorations any longer. But yeah... the more I think about this the more I support an indef on mainspace creation until he can prove via AfC that he can make a quality article. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 08:53, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • It looks like he was unblocked from an indefinite block, but I don't think that this would prevent us from giving him an indefinite block from creating articles in the mainspace. From just what I've seen here, it looks like there's plenty reason to justify restricting Dolovis to AfC for the time being (after the year's block is up), until he proves that he can responsibly create articles. The way he's going, if he keeps getting reported at ANI like this then I'd like to think that ARBCOM would likely approve a new block. (BTW, do they need to approve any future blocks on this user? I always got the impression that if the user kept causing trouble and refused to play nice, they could always be re-blocked.) But seriously though, we've restricted other editors to AfC for far less than this and I think that an AfC restriction and a block from REFUND is a reasonable outcome here. He's abused the system and now we need to make sure that he can edit responsibly before giving him the keys to the car/mainspace. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 13:09, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Tokyogirl79 Keeping in mind that a previous editor we referred over to AfC for remedial page creation scrutiny eventually gave up the topic space that they were precieved to be disruptive in and give up new article creation entirely because AfC didn't review the submissions fast enough for their taste. Hasteur (talk) 13:22, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm aware that this might be a problem, but I'm not sure what else will really be beneficial overall. I think that they need to have their work scrutinized before it goes into the mainspace and a temporary ban from mainspace article creation might not solve the issue. I think that turning him to AfC is probably one of the best case scenarios here. On a side note, if he wanted to ask for people to review his submissions (and anyone would be willing to volunteer for that), I have no problem with him asking qualified editors to review his work after he completes an AfC article. The way he's going, I think that a little one on one will likely be quite helpful. I'm willing to volunteer to shoulder part of this load, if he's limited to AfC only for the time being. I'm just worried that if he's allowed back into the mainspace he might do this without actually having learned anything, given that he doesn't seem to really understand why people find his editing habits problematic and even in violation of part of the spirit of Wikipedia. (IE, the landgrab nature that you referred to below, since Dolovis seems to feel that there's a contest for who gets the most entries created.) Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 15:05, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Note to Delovis: Basically while I know that you're trying to say that you're operating in good faith, if a large amount of people believe that you're doing this for your own personal glory, then that should be a sign that you should stop, pause, and look to check to see if maybe you're doing something wrong. You've been on ANI a lot for various things, all of which tend to center around the same things: creating poor articles and potentially unnecessary redirects and the general consensus seems to be shifting to the idea that you're creating these because you want your article creation numbers to shoot up, not because you're here to edit in a beneficial manner. At some point you really just need to take a look at your editing pattern and ask yourself "maybe it's not them - maybe it's actually me?" Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 15:10, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Support If we're going to be shunting this editor over to AfC, we probably should make sure they're aware of the influx they're about to get. Also I'd like to see some way of allowing editors reviewing this to have a pre-approved "This submission is not qualified for inclusion" deletion process to deal with these in a more rapid timeframe than CSD:G13 (6 months unedited) or many WP:MFD nominations. If we're going to put pressure on the editor to change their behavior with respect to these creations, we need to not allow the editor to keep the crystal ball collection and then make the land grab of "created the article" once someone else did the work of properly creating the article. Hasteur (talk) 13:28, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    AFC allows pretty much any autoconfirmed user to move articles and numerous articles have been accepted with very questionable results. As such, I propose that Dolovis be restricted to six months unless an admin approves of any drafts in the user's draftspace. It's a higher restriction and a greater burden but it then creates a single point of accountability after the fact. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:49, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • It is unfair and punitive to ban me from using WP:REFUND when I was only following the lead of Admin Djsasso who demonstrated to me that such was the encouraged practice when he undeleted the histories of several recreated articles including Anthony Nigro (he now argues such practice is gaming the system). I have never been warned against using WP:REFUND to restore edit histories, and in fact I was under the impression that it should be done for proper attribution. Dolovis (talk) 15:47, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Restoring an edit history, and creating articles you know will be deleted only to just so you can have the history undeleted to claim the first edit are two very different things. If nothing on the page is from the old version of the page then there is no attribution necessary as I am sure you know. If you are not copying anything why would you need to attribute to authors who didn't contribute to that version of the article. -DJSasso (talk) 16:24, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Beyond that, Dolovis, I'll bite: why would you care? What is the benefit, to the encyclopedia, for one name over another to be cited as creator of an article? Our interest should be in complete articles, not in the original one- or two-sentence sub-stub that might have been there in the beginning, right? We're not in this for the glory, after all. Just out of curiosity, how many times have you sought to restore an article history that wouldn't wind up having your name listed as the first edit?

      That being said, "unfair?" It is not "unfair" for us to check your abuse of a process. No one gets gets a free pass to abuse a process just because someone else suggested it to us, in good faith, and expecting us to employ it in good faith. Ravenswing 06:21, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    • Oppose a ban on creation of new articles, based on my random look at five creations: 1. Stig-Göran Johansson is a Swedish hockey player in the national hall of fame [40]. Nice find. 2. Sergei Yemelin is a young fully professional Russian hockey player. That's an auto-keep at AfD, no problems. Single sourced but there are two links that could have been made into sources as easily. 3. Dallas W. Anderson is a medical devices entrepreneur. The piece has a bit of the gross paid editing smell and would be less than 50-50 at AfD, in my estimation. 4. Mikael Saha is a fully professional Finnish hockey player. Another auto-keep at AfD. 5. Lukáš Jašek is a fully professional Czech hockey player. It was created without diacritical marks, and I suppose therein lies the rub with some people.. Still, this looks like a legitimate content person who is helping Wikipedia and I see no issues either with the creations or the sourcing, at a glance. Carrite (talk) 15:26, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • His mass creation of two sentence sub-stubs of European elite players is annoying, but ultimately not at the root of my complaint. Also, given he has created thousands of these two sentence sub stubs, the odds of you finding many of them at random are high. To give you a good idea of my complaints, and perhaps the scope of what you need to look for should your offer to mentor come to be, I would point you to his most recent creations:
    1. Santeri Vuoti - Source does not explicitly support the statement it references. Probably would be WP:ROUTINE anyway. (Player is barely presumed notable for having played 15 Liiga games last year, however. No indication a search was done for substantive coverage in reliable third party sources though).
    2. Vladimir Eminger - Source is basically the hockey team's main page. In short, source does not support the statement it references.
    3. Quebec NHL team - Plagiarism, internal copyvio, crystal balling. Blatant attempt to score first edit on a proposed hockey team that does not exist.
    4. Las Vegas NHL team - Plagiarism, internal copyvio, crystal balling. Blatant attempt to score first edit on a proposed hockey team that does not exist.
    5. Chris Durand (ice hockey) - WP:XY-violating redirect of a non-notable player, created to get a first edit, and despite having links of this exact type deleted multiple times at RFD. This is routine.
    6. Pier-Olivier Pelletier - Same as above; 100 more at RFD now, and I'll be nominating 33 more later today (Mostly, but not entirely, created by Dolovis)
    7. NHL coach of the year and NHL Coach of the Year - not a great concern as they are marginally plausible search terms. He may not be aware that the search engine ignores capitalization, so didn't realize he didn't need to create both.
    8. 2017 Stanley Cup playoffs - Unnecessary redirect created massively prematurely and only to score a first edit. This is routine.
    9. Self-portrait without beard - WP:SYNTH as he clearly has not read or used the sources, and only copied from another article while rewording statements from that one.
    10. Flower Beds in Holland - Standard redirect to an alternative title. No issues there.
    • Going a little farther back, we have the one-sentence, CSD A1 eligible creation of the astronomer that he was shamed into expanding via a PROD tag. Without people there to PROD him into putting bare effort into things, he does things like this, where he simply throws an {{Update}} tag on one of his own articles because he can hardly be bothered to update his thousands of creations himself. And given he creates articles on not-yet-notable players (like Pavel Karnaukhov) and then fails to defend them at PROD because he knows he can just abuse WP:REFUND later, I would say that bans from various processes, including and especially REFUND and redirect creation, are strictly necessary. But as demonstrated above, even when he creates articles on players that strictly pass SNGs, he misrepresents sources and makes no effort to find substantive coverage. That is something I would like to see him demonstrate he is capable of without being watched before I would back down from requesting a page creation ban entirely. Resolute 16:31, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Not wanting to spend my whole day on this, #2 above (a clear SNG Keep) could have the fact of first season documented from one of the external links showing just as easily. #3 above (and presumably #4) could be de-crystal-balled with a retitling to 2015 Quebec City NHL bid, which would be a GNG pass. Agreed that the "2017 Stanley Cup playoffs" is massively premature, but all this all smacks of gross exaggeration of the actual problem presented by what seems to be a good-faith editor... Carrite (talk) 17:46, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Passing a SNG does not automatically mean a keep. If they fail to prove the notability when challenged (and a player that close to the bare minimum likely would be) they still can end up getting deleted. It specifically lays this out in the SNG. Not to mention the external links to stats pages are not reliable sources to proove notability. But as Resolute points out he creates thousands of articles so its not surprise you would find some two sentence ones, no one is claiming every single article is bad, just that a significant percentage to the point of being disruptive are. -DJSasso (talk) 18:04, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I'd be entertained if you could show me a couple times when a bio of a hockey player in a fully professional league has ended in deletion at AfD. It simply does not happen. If he was doing stubs of professional croquet players, those might be close. But hockey? Uh, no. Carrite (talk) 22:39, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Sure I will look some up. Dolovis, himself has had a number deleted. Non-North American professionals are very frequently deleted due to the varying coverage of fully professional players in different countries. -DJSasso (talk) 00:20, 4 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I respect that you wish to AGF, Carrite, but I've been seeing these for years. These mistakes are not new, and they are not going away because Dolovis does not care. He is not here to improve the project, he is here to get his high scores and leave the clean-up to others. And that has been his MO for the entire time he's been a Wikipedian. And for the entire time he's been a Wikipedian, the only times his behaviour has been altered is through either community imposed restrictions, or a block for sockpuppetry. Six separate RFDs were not enough to cause Dolovis to stop creating bad redirects. It was only after this report and the risk of shutting his game down entirely became apparent to him that he suddenly decided that he would honour "a new consensus" - which is actually a year and a half old, at least. Ravenswing, DJSasso and I have been dealing with the mess he makes for years, and we'll all tell you the same thing: He will abuse any process he can as far as he can abuse it. And I think Arbcom recognizes this as well, given his attempt to have one of his restrictions lifted ended with a blunt "you can be restricted, or you can be blocked" response. To respond to your comments above: #1 and #2 above could be fixed by finding non-trivial sources that properly cite his claims and then properly inserting those sources, but he won't do that. #3 and #4, could have just waited until teams were actually announced - but that risks his not getting the first edit (and the expansion bid stuff is already covered at Potential National Hockey League expansion). They are also plagiarism. And his massively premature examples are ongoing and annual. It's all about getting first edits. Always has been. Resolute 19:29, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Carrite, you're missing the forest in favor of picking out a handful of stumps. Quite aside from that notability is a dynamic process -- someone who hasn't achieved notability might well do so years down the road -- of course Dolovis has created some articles that pass notability muster. It would be astonishing if, with the several thousand articles and redirects he's made, he hadn't scored the occasional hit. And I know this as well as anyone; when I filed those 75 AfDs on sub-stubs he'd created a year or so back, there were several stubs I didn't file on, because I judged they passed notability muster.

      That's not the point. You've been around the block, and you know that any number of banned or indeffed editors made some productive edits along the line. Some have had many thousands of productive edits -- people like Betacommand and Mick McNee come to mind. They were sanctioned because the disruption their antics caused not only outweighed the productive edits they made, but caused good editors to quit the project out of frustration.

      Never mind the effect they have on editors who don't quit. Take a look at my contribution history from January of 2014 [41]. I made over 500 edits that month, and easily two-thirds of them involved AfDing non-notable sub-stubs Dolovis created. That time spent didn't count, of course, research I did to ensure the ones I AfDed weren't notable. That time spent constituted time I didn't spend building the encyclopedia; it was time spent cleaning up after messes. Frankly, I don't consider the occasional sound contribution Dolovis makes worth that much time. I don't consider it worth your time as a "mentor," or worth the time it's going to take you to review a subject's notability, not when it takes away from article creation you could be doing. I don't consider it worth the time it sucks from the likes of JohnCD at REFUND. I don't consider it worth the time we've had to spend tightening the NHOCKEY guidelines you cited because despite overwhelming and frequent consensus in a number of discussions, Dolovis routinely ignores consensus where there isn't an explicit black-letter rule.

      I'm unhappy enough at a six-month ban, because just like every other time, we're going to have this all to do over again seven months from now. I think he's had too many chances as it is, over too many years. Ravenswing 05:58, 4 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    • Support ban on article creation, unless pre-vetted for notability as Carrite has helpfully offered below. From working at WP:REFUND, I am aware of much time wasted on the following often-repeated cycle: (1) Dolovis creates an article about a hockey-player, (2) it is discussed at AfD and deleted as non-notable, (3) months or years later the player becomes notable and an article is created, (4) Dolovis comes to REFUND to ask for his deleted edits to be restored to the history beneath the new article. Steps 1,2 and 4 of this cycle are pure waste motion and do nothing for the encyclopedia. Examples here (3 instances) and here (another 4) on just one archive page. JohnCD (talk) 21:48, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment - I've been through the ropes at AfD and if it is judged that Dolovis needs a pre-check on notability of new creations from a mentor before being able to launch them, I hereby offer to serve that role for a six month period. I will report back at the end of that period with the results. Ping me if you wish to go this route. Carrite (talk) 15:29, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment - Quick reference to the Special Notability Guideline for hockey might be of use for this debate:

    Ice hockey players are presumed notable if they
    [1] Played one or more games in an existing or defunct top professional league;
    [2] Played one or more games in an amateur league considered, through lack of a professional league, the highest level of competition extant;
    [3] Played at least 200 games (90 games for a goaltender) or achieved preeminent honors (all-time top ten career scorer, First Team All-Star) in top-level minor leagues or second tier national leagues;
    [4] Achieved preeminent honors (all-time top ten career scorer, First Team All-Star, All-American) in a lower minor league, in a major junior league, or in a major collegiate hockey league (Note: merely playing in a major junior league or major collegiate hockey is not enough to satisfy inclusion requirements);
    [5] Were a first-round draft pick in the NHL Entry Draft;
    [6] Played on a senior national team (such as at the Olympic Games or World Championship); or

    [7] Are an honored member of a national or multinational hockey Hall of Fame.

    A large percentage of the recent work by this editor has involved the creation of stub bios of young professional players and prospects. There seems to me to be good faith, given how low the SNG bar is set (just one game played in a fully pro league is a Speedy Keep at AfD). Carrite (talk) 00:12, 4 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I don't think you understand how SNGs work. They do not cause a "Speedy Keep". It lays out right at the top of them that meeting these does not mean an article must be kept. Not to mention these particular ones don't mention "fully pro" as a number of fully pro leagues do not meet them as explained in the note below the list which you didn't copy over. Some fully pro leagues require 200 games, other fully pro leagues require a first-all star award win etc. -DJSasso (talk) 00:24, 4 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Oh, no, that's not reality. SNGs are special "low bars" to inclusion (or "high bars" in the case of politicians) to be considered in conjunction with GNG. And trust me when I say that a nomination which clearly passes a SNG criterion is almost invariably shut down at once with a Speedy Keep. One NHL game played and the debate is shut down, regardless of what it says at the top of the page. This is also true for baseball, soccer, American football, and basketball — one game in a top professional league and we're done... Carrite (talk) 14:52, 4 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Which is why I'm unsure as to the relevance of the point. We're not talking about sub-stubs that Dolovis has created for players who've played in top-level professional leagues -- although I grit my teeth that he seldom, if ever, bothers with anything more than the two sentences of fact and the bare reference or two that's the irreducible minimum required to clear WP:BLP. We're talking about articles he creates of players who do NOT qualify, over which there's been many a tussle over the years, followed by the inevitable PROD, followed by Dolovis' inevitable removal of the PROD with a bald "Is notable" (if he bothers with an edit summary at all), followed by the inevitable AfD, followed by Dolovis going straight to DRV or REFUND should the subject achieve notability down the road.

    And here's the effect on our workload: in the last two years, judging solely from the edit summaries on his talk page history, he's received notification of seven CSDs, seven copyvios, nine prods, 81 RFDs, 131 AfDs ... and despite his suggestion that the fuss is due to a vendetta a couple editors have against him, these have been filed by over two dozen different editors. After five years, over 50K edits, six blocks, multiple topic bans and edit restrictions, and several hundred articles going through deletion processes, at what point do we admit that this isn't a case of him not knowing any better as opposed to a massive IDHT? Ravenswing 15:26, 4 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    It has been pointed out on my talk page that I inadvertently omitted the word "top." We are speaking of TOP fully professional leagues: NHL, not AHL, for example. Carrite (talk) 14:54, 4 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think that there is general agreement that there is a problem. I do think that a process of "pre-approval" of new starts for notability which does not tax the bogged down Articles for Creation queue should be sufficient rather than destroying the editor's usefulness to the project, which is making sure that our hockey coverage is as complete as it can be. There is a pretty clear consensus that his redirects of drafted players with no biographies needs to stop. The inclusion rules are fairly definite for specific hockey biographies and AfD outcome can be projected with great accuracy. Carrite (talk) 16:45, 4 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I suggested he get an admin's approval so it's not just one person and it's not just a giant slog at AFC (which lets some problematic things though anyways). I can't recall where but that's been done before. It's mostly been redirects being created anyways. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:25, 5 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support six-month article creation and REFUND ban, mentorship notwithstanding. This has some unpleasant similarities to the events leading up to this Arbitration case: wildly prolific creator of stubs refusing to work in a more cooperative fashion, long-running, apparently trivial dispute, and well-meaning but ineffective attempts at outsider intervention, which ended in disaster. This goes well beyond the question of "are most of his articles notable or not?" It's about the strain being placed on community processes like REFUND, PROD, on the hockey project due to litigation over guidelines, and so on. In the big picture of hockey coverage, it's more important to keep the project healthy and editors in general happy and active than it is to write a lot of poor-quality stubs, because they're much less likely to get expanded if the people who could improve them have reduced their activity or quit in disgust. Dolovis says he became "active as an editor to work to improve such articles". Great. Let him do that for six months and let's see where we stand. Carrite, I know your desire to help is sincere, but I suspect that as a mentor, you're going to wind up being drawn into the role of champion for Dolovis, ("But, see, that turned out to be barely notable when I dug up a bunch of sources. Don't pick on my mentee! He needs help!"), which is only going to increase the emotional temperature here. (This isn't a reflection on your personality, but on the difficulty of mentoring in these situations.) Having Dolovis stand down on the stubs for a while won't prevent the articles from being created, and it looks like it will save a whole lot of process wrangling and/or administrator time. Choess (talk) 15:51, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support ban in either AlbinoFerret or Tokyogirl's version. Drmies (talk) 00:14, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Closure?

    Discussion seems to have reached an end point. Is there perhaps an uninvolved admin that might close this one way or another? Resolute 12:23, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Dolovis has accepted mentorship, so hopefully an administrator will close this report on that note. GoodDay (talk) 13:02, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I think consensus has clearly gone to some sort of restriction. But yes, an uninvolved admin will make the call. -DJSasso (talk) 13:31, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    That an admin another editor has offered to mentor Dolovis, and that he has accepted the offer, is very well and good. For my part, I'm not mollified. An offer of mentorship from a non-admin -- especially in reference to overseeing an admin-dependent new article approval process -- is scarcely grounds to say "Well, that's alright then" and forget about the whole thing. I stand on my support of an unconditional six month (or, if possible, indef) ban on new article creation and a permanent ban on using the REFUND process, which I believe remains the consensus opinion. Ravenswing 06:19, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    That, and he's only jumping at mentorship to try and skate by any sanctions. Resolute 18:24, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    If Dolovis were to ignore or go against his mentor's advice? a ban on article creation can always be imposed. GoodDay (talk) 18:35, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Or the ban on article creation can happen now, and he can work with his mentor to improve his editing overall. Personally, I think his interest in having a mentor would rapidly diminish if his games were ended against his will. Resolute 03:00, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Darn, beat me to it, Resolute. Honestly, GoodDay, if this was just a matter of him needing to be trout-slapped in order to edit in an unselfish and productive manner, this would be an entirely different proceeding. But Dolovis is a smart guy who's been around for years. I'm firmly convinced, through years of seeing his interactions and how these conflicts spin out, that it's not a matter of him not knowing any better; I give him more credit than that. It's that he doesn't care, when consensus, guidelines or the spirit of the law conflict with his goals. Do you really think he's going to be any better six months from now, when he's still up to the same gamesmanship just a couple months after coming off of an indef block? When he's already operating under two topic bans, an interaction ban and an edit restriction? Ravenswing 05:58, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree. The mentorship is fine but I still believe Dolovis should still be banned from creating any articles without the approval of any administrator. Since his mentor is an admin, good that's works out but I don't want to hear in six months that the mentor took a break or didn't say "NO" and there was nothing else Dolovis could do as an excuse. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:38, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    If the reference is to me, I will point out that I'm not an administrator and have no intention of becoming one. Carrite (talk) 15:05, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Actually ... this might work to our advantage. While I'm of a mind with Resolute that Dolovis' interest in a mentorship will vanish quickly if it doesn't come with a softening of sanctions, this is his chance to prove us wrong and demonstrate good faith going forward. Putting the work in on his end for six months, without any direct tangible benefit, would go some way to convincing people that there's been a genuine change. Ravenswing 05:32, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Can someone close this, discussion has been pretty much dead for awhile now. -DJSasso (talk) 03:30, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    FWIW, Dolovis hasn't been around for over a week, now. GoodDay (talk) 19:41, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Restoring history of deleted articles

    This discussion has made me think about our practice of restoring the history of deleted articles on request when they are re-created. That is clearly necessary when the new article is based on the old one, but different author(s) of the old one need to be attributed; but where the new article is not based on the old one, or where its author is the same as the only author of the old one, it seems pointless.

    I suggest that we should restore histories only when necessary for attribution. That would remove the incentive for the practice described above, of writing premature articles about non-notable players in the hope of getting "first-author" credit if the subject eventually becomes notable. Unless there is strong disagreement, I shall propose this at WT:REFUND. JohnCD (talk) 16:08, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    One of the challenges there is that Dolovis was abusing a combination of PROD and REFUND. Without changing the policies around the former, I'm not sure how you mitigate issues such as this with the latter. This is one of the reasons why he whined earlier in this thread about Ravenswing's AFDs and said they could have been PRODs instead - PRODs are easier for him to have restored. Resolute 18:26, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Restoring PRODs at REFUND is not a problem - they must be restored on request (unless they are speediable as copyvio or attack), but they can be taken to AfD. If one knows the article author is likely to dePROD, the answer is to save time by going direct to AfD. The issue I am raising is about requests to restore the history of deleted premature articles about non-notable persons who later become notable. A discussion has been started at WT:REFUND#Denying refund requests to avoid gamesmanship. JohnCD (talk) 20:45, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Unsourced ideologies and controversial info for radical parties

    Manolvd1999 (talk · contribs), and 3 "new" IP accounts ([42]) with a sudden interest in the topic, keep adding unsourced "Ideology" labels and other unsourced controversial content in articles of radical Eastern European parties (see Bulgarian National Alliance, Shiv Sena and other similar articles). They have received several warnings and information on the named account's talk page, several users reverted their unsourced edits in those articles. As I am close to 3RR (and a minor edit war is also happening at Shiv Sena), it would be great if someone uninvolved could look into this. GermanJoe (talk) 11:48, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I have notified the named account and one of the IPs with an active talk page. GermanJoe (talk) 11:52, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    This pattern of editing is remarkably similar to that of the prolific serial puppeteer Greekboy12345er6. It's probably worth comparing this with identified socks, and opening an SPI. RolandR (talk) 12:18, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what 'Anti-Ziganism' actually is??? Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 13:23, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I wish there were some sort of online encyclopedia where one could easily look up things like that... —Wasell(T) 14:18, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Now that would be an innovation wouldn't it!!! Cheers Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 14:27, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    And again just now here with another IP. Could an admin please look into this - maybe just semi Bulgarian National Alliance and Shiv Sena for a while? Doesn't make much sense to send additional messages to 4 changing IPs. GermanJoe (talk) 20:14, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Ongoing additions - I have requested page protection for both pages at WP:RfPP. GermanJoe (talk) 17:37, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Robert Martinson problems

    Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk · contribs) has long been banned from article creation for his massive disregard for copyright. He has a great number of subpages on his user page, all intended as potential articles for others to move into main article space. Recently a new editor copypasted one of these subpages, creating the article Robert Martinson. The first thing I noticed about the page (unaware of its provenance) was the obvious copyvios, numerous quotations in the references. I deleted the copyvios, thinking they were rookie mistakes, and then I added information and sources. In the meantime, Richard had asked a third party to fix the article's history by moving his original subpage over the page, leading the third party to restore the copyvios and erase my changes.

    Now it's a very minor mess, and I'm not sure what the proper way forward is. Plan A is to just revert and move on. Plan B is asking here, and I've opted for Plan B. I'll mention the new editor created some other pages that may have the same copypaste/copyvio issues, I just briefly looked. Richard's other subpages may also be problems, I have not looked.

    I have not named the two other editors, both seem to have acted GF, and if either needs to be told something constructive, presumably their Talk pages suffice. While Richard also seems GF here, this looks like he still does not seem to get copyvio. (And I have no idea of the fine points of his ban.) Choor monster (talk) 15:02, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    • If you think using the quote parameter in the citation templates is "obvious copyvios" and you "deleted the copyvios" you really need to study the fair use policy at Wikipedia fair use policy page. The policy currently reads: "Brief quotations of copyrighted text may be used to illustrate a point, establish context, or attribute a point of view or idea." The only violation of Wikipedia copyright policy and plagiarism policy was by the user who copy and pasted my work and attributed it to themselves. They contacted me when they realized they had made an error, and I contacted Sandstein to correct it. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 19:11, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I was the admin whom Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) asked to fix the copypaste article creation by another editor by moving the article history from his user space into mainspace. I was then not aware of his article creation ban, but another admin pointed me to this request and linked to WP:ARBRAN. I am now deleting the article Robert Martinson as an arbitration enforcement action: The ban was apparently made because Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) has previously violated copyright, and therefore the prohibition extends to all articles based wholly on his work, whether or not it was he who moved them into mainspace. This should settle the matter as far as I'm concerned, unless anybody wants to consider sanctions for any involved editor via WP:AE.  Sandstein  18:09, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Deleting it was improper, if you had doubts, you should have migrated it back to User:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )/Robert Martinson and not delete it. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 18:59, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Copyright violations are not allowed anywhere on Wikipedia, so if an admin finds sufficient copyvios in a mainspace article to delete it, sending it back or restoring it to userspace would be irresponsible. BMK (talk) 04:14, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Using the quote feature built into the citation templates is not a violation of copyright, it is the definition of the Wikipedia sanctioned fair-use policy. You are welcome to argue about how much material constitutes fair-use at the Wikipedia fair use policy page. The policy currently reads: "Brief quotations of copyrighted text may be used to illustrate a point, establish context, or attribute a point of view or idea." If you think that the definition of Wikipedia fair-use is wrong, then you should lobby to have the quotation feature contained in over 100,000 citations removed from all of Wikipedia. Removing them adhoc from one article is not the way to do it. While I am blocked from moving articles into mainspace there is no restriction from others moving them into mainspace at my request or by me giving permission for someone asking to move it. However, it is a violation of copyright and a violation of rules against plagiarism to copy and paste my work into a new article under the name of another author. If you think that me quoting the New York Times and properly attributing it is a copyright violation, then you also have to believe that me quoting Wikipedia policy above is a copyright violation, weird world isn't it? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 18:55, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Except that you don't actually need the extended quotations in the footnotes at all. Footnote quotes should only really be used where the source is large and/or difficult to navigate (i.e. no page numbers) so that the reader may struggle to find the source for the citation, or the source contains differing viewpoints so that it is necessary to pinpoint the actual sentence you are using as a source. In this case, neither applies. Black Kite (talk) 19:15, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    That is your personal interpretation of the policy and you should should state that it is your personal interpretation. You are presenting it as fact. The exact wording of facts from the original source prevents semantic drift, we have no idea if the source material will be available in 10 years, 100 years, 1,000 years, or 10,000 years. The original article may read that someone was "from a farm near Fooville", the next editor may rewrite to read that he was "born on a farm near Fooville" and the next editor may change it to "born in Fooville" and the next "born in Fooville, New Jersey. Each small change causes the information to drift slightly and that drift may or may-not be correct, every editor does this when they change wording. The reader has no idea that drift is taking place, unless presented with the original source material. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 19:49, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    No, what I am saying is exactly what I wrote, re-read it. Once again you are using the inflammatory "copyvio" for fair-use as defined by Wikipedia policy. If you cannot discuss it in neutral terms you are purposefully being inflammatory. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 04:54, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • (Response to RAN/ec) In the article in question, you had more full sentence quotation from five NYT articles than you had written in the body of the article. That in itself is ridiculous. Worse, your quotations met none of FUR. Nothing except laziness or incompetence prevented you from summarizing the contents of the NYT articles and leaving out the actual quotations. We're not here for pull-quote journalism.
    • The quote parameter is for responsible usage.
    • I recently created an article Kelayres massacre, over 20K, with fifty footnotes, and I incorporated a grand total of one quotation, from an editorial, since the exact tone seemed to be just as essential to the whole story as the factual content of the editorial (which may, in fact, have been very little). (And there were two FUR pictures, and one PD picture which I asked about on WP:MCQ, just to play it safe.) You? You're not even trying. Choor monster (talk) 19:26, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Well you are awesome that is why your articles do not use the quote feature. However, using words like "obvious copyvios" and "incompetence" makes you less awesome. You are inserting your opinion and personal style as as Wikipedia law. If you do not like using the quote parameter, do not use it. If you think it should never be used, lobby to have it removed globally at the talk page for fair-use policy. Also, Wikipedia:FUR policy is for images. Also, we are not journalists, so I am not using "pull-quote journalism", we are writing a reference-work. Journalists use primary sources, reference-work writers rely primarily on secondary and tertiary sources. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 19:55, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    My opinion seems to be the consensus opinion. I think it should be used. As I said: responsibly. I'll point out I use it frequently over on Wiktionary, since presenting exact quotations over there serves an accepted educational purpose. Choor monster (talk) 20:00, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • If it was Wikipedia policy you would have already quoted me the chapter and verse where it is specifically stated as I have already done above. We all have high opinions of our own opinions, but that doesn't make them Wikipedia policy, it is just magical thinking. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 20:22, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • RAN: Given that there's still a lot of work left to do at Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/20111108, and WP:ARBRAN specifically states "in order for appeals of this remedy to be considered, he shall be required to submit evidence of substantial work on his part towards resolving the Contributor Copyright Investigations filed against him, most particularly the one focused on his text contributions" (referring to the ban on article creation), why are you not doing that before you create articles? —SpacemanSpiff 19:34, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • (ec) So now RAN is creating draft articles with the same kind of copyright problems he will not acknowledge to even exist. Copyright infringement in the Draft space is the same as copyright infringement in the mainspace. It's certainly a violation in spirit, if not the letter, of ARBRAN. Is it time for an amendment to that case? KrakatoaKatie 19:45, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you for your outrage, but again "copyright infringement" is incorrect, you clearly have a limited understanding of fair-use as defined by the United States Supreme Court or by Wikipedia policy of fair-use. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 20:02, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    What SCOTUS permits is irrelevant to us. Citing it is a red-herring, and a serious sign that you don't get WP and WP:COPYVIO. We hold by our own stricter policies. What newspapers and journals and the like do under Fair Use is not something we're supposed to imitate. Choor monster (talk) 20:08, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Once again, please stop saying it is in the Bible, just read the Bible. If you are quoting exact Wikipedia policy quote me the exact chapter and verse. This is not the first time I have asked you to quote policy, and not express your opinion as if it were policy. Note that I quoted you the exact text of the Wikipedia policy on fair-use and put it in quotations above, which under your opinion, is a copyright violation. I directly quoted a copyrighted source. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 20:41, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    First, I'm not outraged. Nothing on this website gives me an emotion that remotely approaches outrage. Second, when you've spent the hundreds of hours I have cleaning up copyright problems, we'll talk about who understands copyright and who does not. The NFCC policy clearly states that Wikipedia uses a more stringent standard than does US copyright law. Either you get that or you don't. If you get it, you'll stop what you're doing now. If you don't, you'll be forced to stop what you're doing later. Up to you. KrakatoaKatie 21:52, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Cleaning up a pile of poop off the bathroom floor does not mean you have the equivalent of an M.D. in proctology or have a Ph.D. in scatology. If you think the "more stringent standard" applies, then work to define it. You can lobby that quotes can be no more than three sentences, or two sentences, or one sentence, or three words. You can lobby that the title of books, and the title of news articles, be restricted to the first three words or the first three letters. You can lobby to have the quote parameter removed from all the citation templates. Until then you are just expressing your personal opinion of how you interpret the Wikipedia fair-use, which is fine. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 22:43, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Now you are quoting essays, at least that is a step up from saying that your personal opinion is Wikipedia policy, but you are still telling people to read the Bible, again cite the chapter and verse or quote what you are referring to. "Go read the Bible, the answer is there" is never useful. If you found something relevant in the essay WP:CIR, then quote it to me, don't tell me to read it and guess which sentence you found relevant. Thank you. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 20:46, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    More to the point, you haven't answered the question posed by SpacemanSpiff above. There is still a huge amount outstanding at Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/20111108. Why are you not cleaning those issues up before creating new articles? After all, that's exactly what the sanction stated. Black Kite (talk) 21:08, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I have not found any, that is why. Spending the next ten years certifying that the previous ten years of edits do not contain any copyright violations, is a waste of time. If there are any more clear examples, a bot can find them, and I will fix them. Copyright isn't subjective, if a bot cannot find them, how can I be expected to? When we have people who think they understand copyright and fair-use, that do not ... as per the comments above, there really is no way of satisfying their manufactured outrage. During the ANI someone said that my quoting a 1905 New York Times article was a copyright violation. And, by the way, my new articles in my user space are awesome. The people I write about deserve no less. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 22:28, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    While CorenSearchBot flags any new articles that contain copyright violations, there is no bot that checks existing Wikipedia articles for copyright violations. That task has to be done by hand, one diff at a time. -- Diannaa (talk) 01:23, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    It just needs to be modified to run against the current state of an article and not the first edit of an article. And of course it needs to be run against all of Wikipedia and rank articles on a scale from 1 to 10. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 01:41, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    No, that's not possible. First, we pay for CSB to do its searches, and the burden of doing this against all articles is astronomically higher than the burden of doing this against new articles. Also, new articles are considerably less likely to find Wikipedia mirrors (legitimate or otherwise) and, when they do, that often highlights another problem - unattributed splitting. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 14:44, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I suggest the nuclear option. Since the only possible reason for RAN to create new articles in his user space (there are scores of them) is so someone will move them into mainspace, thereby circumventing his article-creation ban, I would think, following Sandstein's point, that they should all be deleted. If RAN is interested in editing Wikipedia, there's plenty of work to be done on existing articles, or, as SpacemanSpiff and Black Kite suggest, he could stop bitching that it will take "10 years" to fix all his copyright violations, and just get to work fixing them. It's not as if he started to do so and then gave up, he's never helped to fix his copyright problems, ever. If he had spent all the time between the institution of the ban and now helping to fix his copyright violations -- instead of creating new articles in his user space with more copyright violations -- he might not be finished, but he'd have a damn good case for having his ban lifted due to his services in cleaning up the mess he had made. Instead, RAN continues to refuse to concede that there are any copyright violations, despite the very clear community and ArbCom consensus that there are, and a major form of them was his extensive misuse of the quote parameter. BMK (talk) 02:57, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Struck statement per Sphilbrick's comment in the section below. BMK (talk) 18:00, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Please stop the manufactured outrage and please do not libel me with "he's never helped to fix his copyright problems, ever." Anyone can see all the work I have done simply by looking at the first 100 articles I created in 2005-2006 and then seeing the post ANI changes I made to them. I removed the hidden text of the source documents that I was using to write the biographies. I trimmed long quotations and reworded Air Force *.mil biographies which may/may-not be government public domain. User:Beyond My Ken and I have been antagonistic for years, and he uses every opportunity to try and get me banned permanently. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 07:45, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    No outrage -- is that going to be your standard attack on your critics? -- just a possible solution to the problem you have made, which is to delete all your user space articles as straight-forward violations of your topic ban to not create articles. I recognize that there are other possible solutions, such as your being indef-blocked, or some combination of the various choices. BMK (talk) 08:24, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • If there is some doubt whether the articles in his user space are typical RAN creations -- which is to say. abusive of the quote parameter to an extent that they are copyvios, I would suggest that Moonriddengirl or some other admin well-versed in copyright matter take a look at a random sampling of his user-space articles, and use the result of that examination to determine if the nuclear option is a viable choice or not. Alternately, they can all be tagged with G12 speedy deletion templates, and individual admins can decide on a case-by-case basis. Either way, I have never understood why RAN has been allowed to take the path he has, which is to clearly thumb his nose at his topic ban - one that was first put in place by the community, and then endorsed and taken over by ArbCom. BMK (talk) 03:10, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Awesome that you can read minds too: "clearly thumb his nose at his topic ban". --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 04:38, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't have to read your mind, it's easy enough for everyone to read your actions, and your words speak for themselves. BMK (talk) 05:52, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • The quotation parameter is a fine parameter when used in moderation (and completely unproblematic when used with public domain or compatibly licensed material), but the idea that it should be used to archive the content in case the source becomes unavailable in the future is not supported by WP:NFC, which tries in simple language to explain the transformative use of quotations. Capturing the content for fear that it won't be available later is not on that list - if anything, that's far more likely to be seen as competitive with the original publication, as we eliminate the need for our readers to access the original. In terms of reviewing the drafts, I think it would be better if somebody with less history dealing with RAN's copyright issues undertake this, BMK. :/ --Moonriddengirl (talk) 14:44, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • RAN: Please explain how this is in line with our fair use policy. This is now becoming a case of having to update the original CCI and waste yet more time of other editors and as KrakatoaKatie suggests above, it's time for an amendment to the case to stop any more addition of content, period. Given that this is a two day old violation and that our fair use policy is more strictly implemented in user space, any admin is welcome to take an AE action here (I just don't have the time or inclination to looking at the history right now to do so myself). —SpacemanSpiff 03:22, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    That is image policy, it states that the file has to be deleted. No fair-use images on user pages. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 07:18, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    No, once again you show your ignorance. WP:NFCC isn't just about images, it's about any non-free content, visual or textual. Someday you ought to read the policy so that you can actually follow it.

    Policy

    There is no automatic entitlement to use non-free content in an article or elsewhere on Wikipedia. Articles and other Wikipedia pages may, in accordance with the quotation style guideline, use brief verbatim textual excerpts from copyrighted media, properly attributed or cited to its original source or author (as described by the citation guideline), and specifically indicated as direct quotations via quotation marks, <blockquote>, or a similar method. Other non-free content—including all copyrighted images, audio and video clips, and other media files that lack a free content license—may be used on the English Wikipedia only where all 10 of the following criteria are met.

    #9 I quoted above comes directly after this in the same section. It applies to all non-free content. BMK (talk) 08:30, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • What's strange is that the quote is totally unnecessary. It does not provide any pertinent information that's not in the article, except for the name of the Governor, which is in the title of the article cited. BMK (talk) 03:36, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • WP:ARBRAN has this to say: Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) is strongly admonished for creating multiple copyright violations throughout Wikipedia and failing to adhere to the project's expected standards and policies with regards to non-free content. He is warned that continued violations of this nature are likely to result in an indefinite block from editing. I don't see anything restricting that remedy to article space; perhaps it's time for an indef block? Whether through AE or ARCA I'm not sure. GoldenRing (talk) 04:33, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Lest we forget, although it doesn't come into play in this discussion, RAN is actually subject to twin topic bans. The one we've been referring to here disallows him from creating new articles, and its twin disallows him from uploading images to en.wiki. The reason for this was also copyright-related, as part of the restriction is that if he uploads a copyright-violating image to Commons and uses it on en.wiki, it will be treated as a copyright violation to en.wiki. Clearly, when ArbCom made these restrictions -- which can be found at WP:Editing restrictions -- they had absolutely no faith that RAN understood what is and isn't a copyright violation, which is a powerful reason for ignoring his commentary here regarding copy-vios: he simply doesn't know what he's talking about. BMK (talk) 06:01, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    By your definition we cannot use the title of news articles, remember they are also copyrighted. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 06:12, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    No, you see, once again you've shown that you don't know what you're talking about, since titles are specifically not copyrightable. BMK (talk) 06:15, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Short phrase headlines are not copyrightable, however headlines such as: "Gen. E. A. M'Alpin Dies At Ossining. Former Adjutant General of New York Stricken at His Country Home in His 69th Year. Long in National Guard. Tobacco Merchant and Republican Leader Owned Land on Which Hotel McAlpin Stands." It would not constitute a "short phrase" because it contains original expression. "General McAlpin Dies" would not be copyrightable as a headline since it states non-copyrightable facts under the "short phrase" rule. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 07:16, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    OK, SpacemanSpiff quotes from WP:ARBRAN above, where ArbCom endorses and take up the community ban. It refers to this AN/I thread, in which it was decided to make permanent the initial temporary ban. That initial ban can be found here, where it is phrased as: "[H]e is banned specifically from creating new articles and from page moves". (Note that there's no specification of where the new articles are created.) So, given this clear ban, why, when I look at RAN's talk page, do I see that he is submitting his user space articles to WP:Articles for Creation? Does he somehow think that the fact that someone else pushes the button to make his article appear in mainspace absolves him of his restriction from creating new articles, and that asking other people to make page moves for him doesn't mean that the page move is essentially his? What he is doing is clearly Wikilawyering around his sanctions and pushing hard against the boundaries of his bans by enlisting other editors and AfC as his proxies. That he has gotten away with this behavior for so long is pretty amazing, actually. BMK (talk) 06:23, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    • My summary: A properly attributed quote is not a copyright violation either under United States copyright law or Wikipedia !law. If you want to restrict all quotations to a single sentence or a single word, then lobby to make that so. The only clear copyright violation was by the user that cut-and-pasted my nascent user-space article and put it in mainspace and attributed it to themselves. It was corrected, when the cut-and-paster contacted me, by Sandstein and there was with no ill will toward the cut-and-paster by me. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 07:32, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Your understanding of US copyright law, the fair-use doctrine, and Wikipedia's NFCC policy (which is deliberately more restrictive) is fundamentally flawed, as shown by your past history, your current actions, and your commentary in this thread. You appear to be making it up as you go along, without truly understanding the real issues, or why your actions contravene your sanctions. You have, in a variety of ways, violated your topic bans, apparently very deliberately so -- just as you violated your community-placed ban before the case went to ArbCom, where you were not slapped on the wrist, but given a last chance instead of being indef blocked. You did not take that last chance, which required you to help clean up your existing copyright violations, choosing instead to continue to create new violating articles in your user space. There really is no excuse for any of these actions on your part. BMK (talk) 08:18, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    While I can appreciate the use of AFC to verify the contents of drafts, the topic ban is pretty clear that he is banned from article creation / creating new articles. This doesn't specify in what manor, so he's bypassing the direct approach by creating articles through AFC (or by having other editors moving his drafts), which is still in violation of the topic ban. (striken in relation to Choor monster's note relating to this. However, in addition to that, the topic ban included a ban on page moves, yet his page move log is pretty full. - Happysailor (Talk) 15:18, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Without actually seeing the article in question, it is rather hard to tell if there were copyvios there. I will note simply that there is no rule against quoting, even extended quoting of newspaper or book sources. Indeed, it is rather common in historical areas. The other example given from RA Norton's space (I assume that refers to footnote 2) has a quote consisting of one and a half sentences, which is rather hard to judge as copyvio and not fair use. Whether a quote of such a length is necessary or not, it is rather a stretch to call it a copyvio. Kingsindian ♝♚ 17:57, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    That example is from 1912, so it is PD. Assuming a later date as in many RAN articles, note that there was no need to refer to the article by every last subheading—the first heading suffices—the quotation is longer than the article in question! Note too, it's not US Fair Use which is relevant, but WP:FAIRUSE. Note also RAN's defense of his quotations: he seems to very strongly believe in close paraphrasing and nothing but close paraphrasing, and the point of including the quotation is to seemingly discourage anyone from rewriting one of his close paraphrases. It certainly serves no other purpose here on WP. Choor monster (talk) 18:13, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    (ec) @Kingsindian: Please keep in mind that we don't actually follow the normal "fair-use doctrine", we have our own rules, WP:NFCC which are deliberately more restrictive than fair-use. One can make the argument that we should just follow fair-use doctrine, but the fact is that we don't. Because of that, any use of a quotation, of whatever length, needs to be necessary for the article, and should not simply repeat information that has been written into the article in a non-quoted, non-plagiarized manner, which is the preferred way to deal with sourced information. There have been any number of times when I determined that any re-writing of a source's statement was going to water down, misrepresent or too closely follow the quote from the source, and I chose to directly quote the source to get the correct flavor and attitude it conveyed, but the quote didn't repeat something I wrote, it replaced it as being the best representation of the cite. RAN's use of the "quote" parameter in his citations is, instead, repetitive and, generally, totally unnecessary.
    Our policy says quite specifically "There is no automatic entitlement to use non-free content in an article or elsewhere on Wikipedia", but RAN operates on the opposite basis, that he can use quotes whenever he wants to, even when they are repetitive and unnecessary. Such usage would mostly survive scrutiny under the fair-use doctrine, but it is not in line with out NFCC policy. That RAN cannot or will not recognize this (or indeed the intent of his topics bans) is why we are here discussing this. BMK (talk) 18:19, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Whatever standard of "fair-use" one uses, one and a half sentences surely qualifies. I would barely be able to write any content if such a restrictive standard is used. For instance, I quoted two whole sentences here (at the very end). I hope I am not going to get banned. Kingsindian ♝♚ 18:56, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I assume an official government committee's statement is PD. Even if it were a private committee making an official statement about some investigation, its exact wording would typically meet NFCC. In contrast, the exact wording of a newspaper summarizing for us what some committee said, or even any PD document, would typically not meet NFCC. Why is this so difficult to understand? Choor monster (talk) 19:03, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    @Kingsindian: Please also keep in mind RAN's history. He's on an official short leash because of his past infractions, you're not. BMK (talk) 19:36, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Kingsindian, with respect only to the note "there is no rule against quoting, even extended quoting of newspaper or book sources", I just wanted to clarify that there are indeed such rules in both Wikipedia ("Extensive quotation of copyrighted text is prohibited." WP:NFC) and the US copyright law that governs us.  :) As our article on fair use notes, amount and substantiality of copied content is a determinative factor. (cf. http://copyright.gov/fair-use/more-info.html) Prudent use of quotations is not only permitted but good practice, but extensive quotations of any text that is copyrighted and not compatibly licensed is forbidden on Wikipedia. Unfortunately, "extensive" cannot be identified here any more than it is in law, since what qualifies as extensive is defined by a number of factors, including the centrality of the content and its original length, as well as a review of the other factors of fair use. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 20:03, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • When the source is not an official actor regarding some content being written up (if it were, the exact wording is inherently significant), I personally apply the "everybody quotes it" test. Strong editorials and reviews and so on are often the most interesting reactions to something, and tend to get quoted by later writers trying to capture the flavor of initial reactions. In contrast, routine journalism rarely gets quoted by later writers, and is normally never part of the story, then or later, so we should avoid quoting it too. Choor monster (talk) 20:20, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    @Moonriddengirl and Choor monster: The two sentences which I quote are not from a government statement, but from a book (actually the book is cited by a journal article, and I quote the journal article). I am of course aware that very long quotations are not a good idea, but as "extensive" is not defined exactly, I apply common sense here. One and half sentences (in the case of RAN) and two sentences (in my case), are surely within the bounds of "brief" and not "extended". Kingsindian ♝♚ 09:15, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    You appear to be quoting one Mohammed Hyder, just not directly from his own recently published memoir October Coup. So far as I can tell, Hyder was a government official, or a high-up NGO functionary, or the like. He wasn't working for the Indian government but for the Hyerabad state, and as someone on the losing side, he could not get official standing for his version. I see absolutely no comparison between your inclusion there and RAN's quotations elsewhere. You are doing things the right way, he is not. Choor monster (talk) 16:51, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    @Choor monster: Hyder's memoir, October Coup is as much subject to copyright as the New York Times is. As is the academic journal which quoted his book, which I quoted myself. If quoting one and a half sentences from the New York Times is copyvio, so is quoting two sentences from his book. Kingsindian ♝♚ 10:58, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    You don't seem to get it. Hyder himself was a participant of some importance in the events described in the article. That elevates his words from random journalism to likely NFCC acceptable. Quoting the NYT verbatim regarding the US scandal Watergate or the UK scandal Hackergate would lean to being not allowed here. However, quoting Woodward and Bernstein, the two journalists most associated with Watergate, or any of the Murdoch News journalists, both guilty parties and shocked coworkers, would probably be fair game. Same thing here, not the same thing regarding RAN's use of NYT quotations. I'll mention that in the original Robert Martinson article that sparked this discussion, there was simply a stub of three sentences or so, five footnotes, and all five quoted a full sentence from the NYT, one a bit long. In the new version, not one single quotation appears. There may be some forthcoming, from Martinson or a colleague. But random journalism? No benefit whatsoever. Choor monster (talk) 12:34, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Kingsindian, my comment to you here has nothing to do with what source you're using or how many sentences you're quoting. :) It is purely confirmed to responding to your comment that "there is no rule against quoting, even extended quoting of newspaper or book sources" - I want to be sure that you and others realize that there is such a rule. Better to be clear on that than to inadvertently run afoul of it! --Moonriddengirl (talk) 12:46, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Not to defend or deride RAN but either I'm misreading our Fair use policy or several people here are. Articles and other Wikipedia pages may, in accordance with the quotation style guideline, use brief verbatim textual excerpts from copyrighted media, properly attributed or cited to its original source or author (as described by the citation guideline), and specifically indicated as direct quotations via quotation marks, blockquote or a similar method. Other non-free content—including all copyrighted images, audio and video clips, and other media files that lack a free content license—may be used on the English Wikipedia only where all 10 of the following criteria are met. Brief Quotes don't need to meet the 10 criteria. They just need to be cited, they don't even need to be necessary or justified. By the letter of the rule. SPACKlick (talk) 14:51, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    While unfortunately the link to the MOS (added a few months ago) seems to have introduced some confusion, the guideline has explicit information on the use of text - including the necessity of them. The policy at Wikipedia:Copyrights says "Wikipedia articles may also include quotations, images, or other media under the U.S. Copyright law "fair use" doctrine in accordance with our guidelines for non-free content." That guideline, incorporated by reference in the copyright policy, has an entire section on text. By the letter of the rule, quotations must accord. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 01:19, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Proposal

    Delete all articles in RAN's userspace and block indefinitely with the block only to be removed for the sole purpose of clearing up his existing copyvio issues and for no other reason.

    Support as nom. Too much time and energy has been spent on RAN already. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:59, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    This is a multi-million dollar installation. You can't make that kind of decision. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 10:05, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support After reading through all of the above and taking a peak at some of RAN's work I see an editor that is unwilling to work within community norms even after having them repeatedly and over time explained to him. That he is unwilling to take on board criticism of his methods and conform to community norms regarding copyright indicates to me he is not competent to judge copyright issues or add material to the project.

      Since the whole purpose of Wikipedia is to document knowledge without infringing on copyright we take an extremely cautious line on the use of non-free materials so as not to put the project's reputation at risk or open it to legal action. Based on RAN's unwillingness to address the community's concern with his work and his obstinate refusal to even recognize there is a problem I support not only the deletion of his articles, which were created at the very least in violation of the spirit of his ban if not in fact, I also support an indef ban block from Wikipedia until such time as he is willing to recognize and fix the community's concern with his work. JbhTalk 15:31, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    • Comment - Although I am the editor who brought up the "nuclear option" in the first place, I would actually much prefer that RAN acknowledge his errors and pledge himself to help undo them before we go there. As I said below, I think that his skills make him potentially a net positive, and I'd like to see him make some effort to make that happen, perhaps working with a mentor, before we go nuclear. So I look forward to seeing some indication from RAN as this discussion continues that he understands what went wrong and will help ameliorate the problem. So... I'm going to continue to monitor his comments, and will decide about this proposal based on that. BMK (talk) 19:29, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment Note that RAN's user subpages were permitted under the creation ban (see the Talk page) in order to demonstrate that he can create content without violating WP's terms. So talk that these articles' very existence violates the spirit of his ban is out of place, but I'll notice that so long as they stayed in his user space, nobody seems to have paid them any attention regarding copyright issues. Whether the request to move the one article to "fix" someone else's copy/paste to main space was a violation is another question. Choor monster (talk) 21:04, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • That's a long talk page! Is there a particular place where it's specifically stated that creation of articles in his userspace is permitted, or are you going on the fact that almost all the participants in the various discussions assumed that was the case? Because what's interesting is that the topic ban seen on ARBRAN doesn't go into details, it simply says that the community ban is endorsed and taken over by ArbCo,, and the wording of the community ban is as I posted it above, that RAN was prohibited from "creating articles" and "moving pages", without any specification of where that article creation was prohibited. It may be that having been accepted by so many people for so long, it's too late to retroactively enforce the actual wording of the topic ban, and not people's understanding of it, but unless you can point to something on the user page that I missed (which is quite possible, I couldn't read the entire thing), I don't think there's anything there that proactively says it's OK for him to do that, it's just assumed by all and sundry.
      In any event, RAN himself says in one of those discussions that the creation of those articles was designed to show that he could create non-copyvio articles, but here we are again with the same kind of NFCC-violating quotes he got in trouble with before.
      The other interesting thing about the talk page is that, fairly recently, ArbCom rejected RAN's bid to have his restrictions amended, based on an examination of his work to that point, a sign that -- at least in their opinion -- RAN is still not editing up to NFCC standards. BMK (talk) 21:40, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support sadly. Whether creating articles in user space is permitted or not seems at least plausibly a grey area; whether those articles are permitted to contain copyright violations is most definitely not. I've got a lot of sympathy for giving an editor another go and giving him a chance to demonstrate that he's understood the problems and is ready to remedy them; that chance has been offered, at great length, and the demonstration has categorically not been made. My only amendment would be that the standard offer should still be open; if he can convince someone that he's actually understood the problems and is ready to change, then he should be given another chance. Until that time, the editing privilege should be forfeit. "But there's nothing wrong with what I'm doing," in the face of overwhelming consensus that there is something wrong with it, is not a viable attitude for editing. GoldenRing (talk) 02:28, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support too many ban-evading and copyvio concerns Snuggums (talk / edits) 02:34, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      I'm still waiting to hear from RAN, who was all over this discussion earlier, accusing critics of manufacturing outrage and making cracks about poop and proctology, but who seems to have disappeared now, when it comes time to provide some kind of pledge of cleaning up his act. BMK (talk) 03:29, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      Why? He hasnt actually contributed to cleaning up his past problems in any significant manner. He has repeatedly over YEARS and multiple venues shown that he has no regard for others, wikipedia policy, community consensus or the restrictions placed on him by arbcom (who erred in not making him work solely on his own mess in the first place). I am not suggesting we nuke his userspace out of any punishment for him, I am suggesting we do it because no other editor should have to put up with his crap and vet it all to check its ok. Are you going to do it? Should we ask a specialist like Moon to have a look? Why would we wish that on someone else. There are likely loads of copyvios there *now* that will not have been looked at, because RAN thinks what he is doing is ok. Look at his responses to you above, he is a fanatic, he doesnt care about any other opinion or interpretation than his own. You want him to make some sort of commitment to being a better editor, but time and experience has shown whatever he says, whatever restrictions he is under, he will do what he wants regardless. Why are we wasting everyone's time? Given that he *will* continue the same pattern, any action we fail to take now is only making more problems in the future for other editors. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:11, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      .....Nor should he. His problematic editing took place in the period 2005-2008, for the most part, when Wikipedia's standards for footnoting and snitching stuff from websites were looser. It's ridiculous to expect him to "clean up" ten year old editing, much of which has long since been changed and changed and changed again in the editing process. Yet that is the expectation of some people. It's absurd. Carrite (talk) 10:16, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support - BMK (talk) 20:23, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose Articles such as Robert Martinson and eccentric dance are perfectly fine and deleting such notable topics would be disruptive – cutting off our nose to spite our face. Quotations are standard practice in our articles and it seems quite bizarre to suggest otherwise – the current FA contains numerous quotations, for example. Andrew D. (talk) 22:38, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support indef block, neutral on deletion I have not thoroughly examined the articles in his userspace, but they should be individually assessed. Hopefully some of them can be salvaged with revdel to excise the copyvios (and I use copyvio here in reference to the NFCC policy). As to the indef block, RAN has been warned over and over and he simply refuses to comply with the community standards. It is one thing to place a brief quote in the body of an article and properly reference it. It is another to fill the reference section with unnecessary copied material and call it 'fair use' in every instance. I believe RAN has exhausted the community's patience here. KrakatoaKatie 03:27, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support the whole kit and kaboodle, indef included: We've been around the block with RAN before. A lot. His block log reads like the rap sheet of a lifer, he's got a hundred hits on the ANI archives [43], and I bet there are longstanding productive editors with fewer edits than are totaled in those archives. He not only has proven he's more trouble than his contributions are worth, he proved it years ago. Ravenswing 15:22, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose: See my comments in the previous section. I can see some of the points being raised by people, but bringing out the pitchforks is a huge overreaction. I already dealt with one example in my comments above, another example (this one in RAN's userspace) has a long quote from a jazz historian/critic. I can't really see why Beyond My Ken considers that version a copyvio, but not the current version, since this also includes the same quote. It is a wholly proper and relevant quote, as far as I am concerned. It perhaps could be made shorter, but I don't see it as ban-worthy. Kingsindian ♝♚ 15:32, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose is the only option here: Considering that RAN's user space exists with ArbCom's knowledge, I don't see how there is any scope for discussion here beyond the Robert Martinson article. His request to User:Sandstein was apparently improper, but Sandstein's deletion as an Enforcement Action (not logged, btw) presumably ended that particular issue. Since ArbCom decided to leave the fixing of his articles on a case-by-case basis, our options seem to be limited to that. Dig in or bring the issue back to ArbCom. Nuking and/or banning are almost certainly off the table at the moment. Choor monster (talk) 12:24, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I disagree. RAN was strongly admonished in ARBRAN to stop what he was doing before he faced an indef block (the quote is up above); that block can certainly come from consensus. And RAN is still at it - yesterday he added the same reference with the same long 'quote' from a New York Times opinion piece to five different articles. It's as if he goes through the NYT every morning looking for opportunities to add its material anywhere he can. This is beyond an article creation problem. If consensus fails here, we can certainly go back to ArbCom, but they like to see us try to fix it ourselves first. I think that applies here. KrakatoaKatie 13:15, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • And it's all happening in his User space, and has been ongoing with almost no concern anyway. And suddently now there's a fire? I don't buy it. I see instead that this current thread came from a comedy of good-faith errors, including one actionable request on RAN's part that received AE, while the bigger long-range problem is exactly what it was a week ago. In other words, I don't believe it's proper to make up for the community's negligent avoidance of short-term efforts with one easy cumulative better-late-than-never response. That's just dirty pool. Choor monster (talk) 14:57, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    This is the issue about which RAN was strongly admonished. It's not dirty pool. We've been around and around with him over this for years and he will. not. stop. KrakatoaKatie 20:10, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's also being overlooked that RAN's ban includes not making page moves. Check WP:ARBRAN or WP:Editing restrictions, and you'll see that ArbCom did not fashion a new topic ban, they simply endorsed the community's topic ban and took it over as their own. The community's ban, which can be found here says that the topic ban is "from creating new articles and from performing page moves" (underlining added). This is quite clear, and since ArbCom simply accepted, endorsed and adopted it, RAN's ban definitely includes page moves, and yet RAN's page move log is, as pointed out above, crammed with page moves. We can argue over whether the article creation ban was meant for everywhere, or just in articlespace, but the page move ban is clear, which means that each and every one of the page moves in his log is a violation of his topic ban. BMK (talk) 22:45, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I stand corrected, and have struck my oppose. But I still don't like it all blowing up at once. The alternate proposal below is a step in the right direction. Choor monster (talk) 11:35, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose blocking Richard Norton. Oppose messing with Richard Norton's user page or any subpage of Richard Norton's User page. Look, he is not circumventing ANYTHING by listing new starts on his page. That is how he is SUPPOSED to be starting new articles on WP: launching them there, to be taken into mainspace by others UNDER THEIR OWN AUTHORITY AND PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR COPYRIGHT CLEANLINESS. It's an idiotic system, he should be free to create new articles like anyone else, but we've been around the mulberry bush three times and it is what it is. I've told him five times, minimum, to STOP USING THE FUCKING QUOTE FUNCTION OF THE CITATION TEMPLATE and he fucking won't listen and if that's what's getting him in trouble here, I have very little sympathy. But, for the record (and you can check on this if you doubt me) it is NOT a violation of any topic ban, in spirit or de jure, for him to be launching new articles in user space for others to take to mainspace. Anyone who has voted for action against him on that basis needs to educate themselves on the matter. Carrite (talk) 10:08, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • While his user pages are sitting there *not being checked* they probably (a good bet given his history) still include violations, while you are correct it is the responsibility of anyone who then puts it into mainspace, a user-draft is still a copyvio even if its not in mainspace. The problem is no one is going to go through them all (unless you are volunteering?) so they could have been sitting there for months and months with no oversight apart from RAN's. Which he is not competant to judge. If someone is willing to stand up and say 'I will check all of his user drafts for violations' then fine, I am happy to remove that part of the proposal above. But you freely admit he wont listen to instruction on the quote function despite repeatedly being told he is wrong by numerous people over an extended period, by the community, by Arbcom, by yourself. Everyone has tried escalating deterrants, there is no where left to go apart from an addition to his (already lengthy) sanctions stating he may not make any edits other than basic prose. No quotes, citation templates, nothing. If you think that will work feel free to post it as a counter? (-edit- I see you did) However at this point perhaps his entire userspace needs to go to MFD Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:39, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      I don't think the "solution" of having other people mule his starts to mainspace under their own authority works. That's a matter for Arbitration Enforcement or ArbCom, ultimately. I ported one or two over long ago but have pretty much decided not to do any more owing to RAN's use of the "quote =" parameter, which I object to on the basis of aesthetics and general uselessness. All that shit should be stripped out of the footnotes by RAN himself and he should be allowed to make new starts, bearing in mind that any copyright violations are gonna result in a very lengthy block. That's how to fix the problem (while improving the encyclopedia), for the record. The current system is not working, on that we can agree. Carrite (talk) 10:50, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      Given that my original proposal was 'blocked until and only he clears up his own mess' I dont see that you actually disagree with my proposal :D Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:39, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Another proposal

    Richard A. Norton is hereby expressly prohibited from using the "quote =" parameter of the citation template in any edit that he makes after Sept. 15, 2015. While it generally falls within the definition of Fair Use under American copyright law to use this parameter, we have a right to demand the very highest standard of copyright cleanliness in his work. There is too much controversy with some, too much grey area, for him to continue to use this parameter. He has been asked nicely to stop, told emphatically to stop, he needs now to be formally stopped from using the quote parameter. Carrite (talk) 10:26, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Other problems

    The articles Stuyvesant Polyclinic and Eccentric dance began in RAN's User space. Choor monster (talk) 13:22, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    That's fine. The people who imported them to mainspace are PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE that they be copyright clear. Carrite (talk) 10:20, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Comments

    I wish I had seen this thread earlier although I see it is not all that old. I see some black-and-white statements to describe a situation which in some cases is not that clear-cut. I am very sympathetic to BMKs frustration, but I wish they had not made the strong statement that RAN has never helped clean up some of the copyright issues. I may be one of the few editors who can say I have worked with RAN to resolve some articles. That said, my involvement ended because we could not reach a resolution of the use of the quote feature in references. It is not quite fair to suggest that RAN is deliberately disregarding copyright rules. I think he accepts that we cannot violate copyright but he believes his use of the quote feature is in compliance with the rules. I fully get that we have tried multiple times to explain that we do not agree with his position, but there is a distinction between a difference of opinion about the application of a role, and a blatant disregard for rules.

    I tried, very hard, to resolve the quote in reference issue. I don't have the links handy but I can find them if someone thinks they are relevant.

    I think it would be an unrealistic expectation that he do know content related work until all copyvio issues are resolved. However it might be reasonable to propose some compromise, for example, some percentage of edits over some period of time have to be devoted to resolving open copyright issues.

    I will volunteer to spend some time working with RAN to resolve some of the open issues. We will have to identify items other than the quote within reference articles, but I'm sure there are many such examples. I think we will still have to resolve the quote within reference issue.--S Philbrick(Talk) 17:05, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    My prior attempts to solve the quote in reference issue are here:
    Wikipedia talk:Citing sources/Archive 32#Use of quote parameter in footnote - a proposal to provide better guidance--S Philbrick(Talk) 17:20, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    If I am incorrect that RAN has never helped to clean up his copyright violations, then I withdraw the statement and apologize for it, but it cannot be denied that his involvement has been minimal at best, and that he now consistently rejects suggestions that he continue that work with the "10 years" canard. As for "content work", the AN/I discussions specifically shied away from saying the RAN couldn't do content work, so he is free to add content to existing articles, even to expand sub-stubs to full-blown articles, what he is not allowed to do is to create articles which has been his primary focus for quite a while, albeit in his userspace and not in mainspace. BMK (talk) 17:58, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I have the impression that RAN simply does not understand this Internet thingie. Many of the examples I've seen probably pass US Fair Use, and he believes that ends the discussion, when of course, the only rules that matter are WMF policies/guidelines, which are much more stringent. That, and his employment of an endless succession of time-wasting Wookie defenses (look, over there, somewhere there's a issue in which WMF took an expansive view of public domain!) is simply a complete failure of competence. Choor monster (talk) 18:05, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I think the RAN is an excellent researcher, that he comes up with information that many other editors would never find. His skills as a writer aren't quite as good, but still much more than acceptable, and his ability to nose out subjects that haven't been covered by the encyclopedia is very good indeed. Where he fails is, I think, in judgment, as exemplified by his sticking like glue to his misinterpretation or misunderstanding of Wikipedia policies, and by the choice of which of those subjects he finds to write about. With some frequency the notability of the subject is fairly borderline, but, just as with the use of the quote parameter, once RAN has decided to do something, he digs in and resists all attempts to change his course. That is unfortunate, as such a modus vivendi for a person in his delicate position (3 topic bans and a strong admonishment from ArbCom) needs to be more flexible and to understand the rules he is supposed to live by, because failure to do so would seem to inevitably lead to an indef block or even a site ban. That would, I think, be a shame, because he has the potential to be a net positive if he would only be more reasonable, give up the idea that his judgment on these matters is infallible, and listen to what other editors are telling him. Despite his statement above, I don't want to see him kicked off the site, I just want him to be able to improve the encyclopedia and at the same time follow policy and his restrictions. BMK (talk) 18:33, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm afraid I disagree. He doesn't have the potential at all to be a net positive; what he has are the skills to be a net positive. We've had years' worth of observation, many blocks, a blizzard of ANI complaints and multiple bans to demonstrate that he just doesn't have the temperament for it. He isn't going to be more reasonable, isn't going to listen to other editors when their words conflict with his worldview, and isn't going to accept that someone else might be right if it means that he's wrong. People like that just don't slap their foreheads one day and cry out "My God! I've been so horribly blind! I shall change my ways and become a civil, non-tendentious editor," and we should abandon the fantasy that this ever happens. Ravenswing 02:08, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Robert Martinson article recreated

    I have recreated the article that sparked this thread from scratch. I had planned to give it some more content first, but hit the wrong button. Choor monster (talk) 15:28, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    User:ThorLives and the Heathenry (new religious movement) page

    In the almost ten years that I've been active here at Wikipedia I've never suggested that any editor be banned or blocked, but unfortunately I’ve come to the conclusion that it may be necessary in the case of User:ThorLives in order to prevent continuing disruption to the Heathenry (new religious movement) page. A self-described "Odinist" – and thus a practitioner of the religion that this article is about, a possible Conflict of Interest of sorts – it is clear from ThorLives' contribution list that this is one of very few articles that they actually edit, and that they have been active on it since opening their account in October 2011 (and thus they've had four years with which to familiarise themselves with policy). Thus, I do believe that their intentions are good, even if their behaviour of late has repeatedly and seriously violated a number of Wikipedia policies, including those on disruptive editing, edit warring, no personal attacks, and "outing", with no sign that they intend to stop.

    The article in question was formerly titled "Germanic neopaganism", but in August 2015 a Requested Move resulted in the group decision that the page would be renamed "Heathenry (new religious movement)". Several hours after User:Sovereign Sentinel had orchestrated the move on 2 September 2015, ThorLives (clearly unhappy with this decision) created a fork redirect back to "Germanic neopaganism". Within the hour I had realised what they had done and undid their edit, thus restoring the page to "Heathenry (new religious movement)", pointing them to the recent Requested Move discussion in my edit summary. Unfortunately, they ignored that and simply restored their fork redirect. Only after being warned about their actions by both User:Brianann MacAmhlaidh and User:Sovereign Sentinel on the article Talk Page did they then undo their edit. This reflects not only an initial refusal to accept group decisions and a willingness to unilaterally act against them, but also shows that they are prepared to wilfully engage in edit warring.

    The very next day, on 3 September 2015, they then proceeded to engage in a range of edits that removed much academically-referenced material and introduced content that was in part poorly sourced – consisting of self-published and other non-reliable sources – and in part not sourced at all. This was always going to be controversial. On 4 September I undid these edits, seeking to bring about the Bold, Revert, Discuss Cycle. However, ThorLives then engaged in edit warring by restoring their edits. Also acknowledging the problematic nature of ThorLives’ content, User:Bloodofox then restored things to how they were, but ThorLives simply undid that too. On 6 September I once again restored the article to the established revision, but fearing that the edit warring would continue and that I myself might be accused of violating the three-revert rule, I successfully requested a three day full protection for the article, which was kindly administered by User:NeilN.

    During this edit war, on the talk page I repeatedly requested that ThorLives engage in dialogue so that their proposed changes, which were both sweeping and controversial, could be discussed with other editors first. They ignored my requests, and in their response instead broke Civility policy by attempting to expose my identity, which is an attempt at "outing" and thus in very clear violation of our Harassment policy, which states very plainly that "attempted outing is grounds for an immediate block". Since then, they have posted some rather odd comments on my talk page trying to "out" me further by linking me to a different user (and wrongly, as it happens) and making pretty uncomfortable accusations regarding my gender, and then most recently they've done it again on the talk page, this time making a personal attack by libelously accusing me of sock puppetry.

    All in all, ThorLives has exhibited a pattern of disruptive editing, edit warring, and outing with no sign that they admit their errors and intend to cease. Attempts have been made to engage in constructive dialogue with them on the article talk page, all of which have proved fruitless. This has all been highly detrimental to the quality and stability of the article in question, and frankly has been unpleasant for me, and it has led me to the unfortunate conclusion (which I most certainly do not take lightly) that a block and/or ban (temporary or otherwise) on this user's ability to edit is necessary. Midnightblueowl (talk) 00:28, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I am completely uninvolved with this other than carrying out the requested move, and therefore I am abstaining from this discussion. sovereign°sentinel (contribs) 05:05, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    ThorLives' response

    From ThorLives — Preceding unsigned comment added by ThorLives (talk • contribs) 04:52, 8 September 2015 (UTC) Sorry, I suspected a "sock puppet." Midnightblueowl and Bhlegkorbh made the same edits and same arguments and disrupted the page in the same ways. If you check my edits, I was not deleting material: I was restoring material he deleted.[reply]

    Both editors insisted that "heathenry" is the ONLY term for Germanic neopaganism. Folkish types do not like "pagan" because it has Latin and French roots.

    Both editors deleted academic references dealing with medieval Norse Paganism. For example, who could object to the following, but both constant;y deleted it:

    Our most complete sources for reconstruction are from Iceland. On the alleged existence of a collective Germanic paganism in medieval times, Professor Lois Bragg makes this observation: “But we have no persuasive evidence of any common cult, belief system, or even pantheon that might ever have been recognized among speakers of various Germanic languages across geographical, cultural, political, and dialect boundaries. While there are obvious commonalities, for example in the names of some deities (Odin, Woden, Wotan), these point to common origins rather than common praxis or belief. Compare present-dy Jews, Lutherans, and Mormons who share common myths (the expulsion from the Garden of Eden, the Moses cycle, the Patriarch cycle ) and who similarly name their children after the heroes of these myths (Adam, Aaron, Judith, Rebecca), but maintain distinctive cult practices and identities and even disparage and attempt to convert one another.” Lois Bragg. Oedipus Borealis: The Aberrant Body in Old Icelandic Myth and Saga Fairleigh Dickinson University Press. 2004. ISBN 0838640281

    Both editors deleted saga, Prose Edda, and Poetic Edda references.n

    Both editors deleted links and references to mainline pagan groups. This is the lede before the two removed it:

    Heathenry or Germanic neopaganism,[1] also known as Ásatrú, Odinism, Forn Siðr, Wotanism, Theodism, and other names, is the contemporary revival of historical polytheistic Germanic paganism.[2] Dedicated to the ancient gods and goddesses of the North, the focus of Germanic neopagans varies considerably, from strictly historical polytheistic reconstructionism to syncretist (eclectic), Jungian, occult or mysticist approaches. Germanic neopagan organizations cover a wide spectrum of belief and ideals.

    Much of Germanic Neopaganism's origins are in 19th century romanticism, as the aboriginal cultures of Northern Europe came to be glorified. In the early 20th century, organised groups emerged in Germany and Austria. In the 1970s, new Germanic Neopagan organisations grew up in Europe and North America, although a broad division in the movement emerged between the folkish movement, who saw it as the indigenous religion of the Nordic peoples, and the universalist movement, who opposed strictly racialist interpretations. As present, established Germanic Pagan communities exist in Europe, North America, South America, and Australasia. A few adherents can even be found in South Africa.

    References to the Odinist Fellowship, Odinic Rite, Ásatrú Alliance, Asatru Folk Assembly, and so forth were constantly deleted by both editors.

    Both editors constantly deleted references to Valhalla, a curious "conceit" on a page about Germanic paganism. (It makes sense, however, in a certain context. One small American group, who always uses the name Heathen exclusively, denies that Valhalla exists, and they argue that the dead continue to live in the grave mound)

    Both editors deleted all references to modern Norse pagan leaders and their books, people such as Stephen McNallen, John Yeowell, and so forth.

    I could continue, but you understand the point.

    I should add that, in my opinion, an article on Germanic Neopaganism should be comprehensive, and should not promote a single agenda. It also should contain numerous links and discussions to help readers find related articles. --ThorLives (talk) 05:04, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Thank you. --Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 04:54, 8 September 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by ThorLives (talk • contribs) 04:51, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    This isn't the place to discuss content dispute, which seems to represent almost the entire gist of ThorLives' response here; they have neither acknowledged nor apologised for their repeated gross violations of various Wikipedia policies. All I can say in response to their above post is that I (and others) had good reason to delete the non-reliably referenced, in some some cases not referenced at all, often sectarian, sometimes irrelevant, and at times factually incorrect statements that ThorLives had insisted on repeatedly adding to the article (at the expense of concise, academically-sourced information on this new religious movement which they repeatedly deleted). Wikipedia has clear guidelines surrounding Reliable Sources which ThorLives disregarded time and time again.
    As to the claim that I am sock puppeting and that myself and Bhlegkorbh are one and the same individual, I completely and utterly deny the libelous accusations 100%. I am not, and never have, edited Wikipedia using the "Bhlegkorbh" account (Bhlegkorbh appears to have thrown in the towel and left Wikipedia in July 2014 anyway). ThorLives' claim rests in its entirety on the basis that, at different times, myself and "Bhlegkorbh" have expressed similar arguments and opinions about how the article can be improved (primarily by adding in material from academic studies of Heathenry and deleting un-referenced and poorly-referenced text). However, similar opinions (which would, IMO, be held by anyone familiar with Wikipedia's Manual of Style), have also at times been backed by the likes of User:Bloodofox - so by ThorLives' reasoning I guess that that must be simply be another of my accounts too! Frankly, I suspect that the accusations of sock puppetry launched against me by ThorLives are in part an attempt simply to distract attention from their own behaviour. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:41, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    ThorLives, why would anyone want a long quote about medieval or ancient beliefs (or in this instance lack of consistent beliefs) in the lead of an article about a modern revival? That kind of material MIGHT belong in later sections comparing modern/ancient or on the articles about the 'old'. I fear you are arguing from a different 'base' from WP guidelines. Pincrete (talk) 09:49, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Comments

    This looks like a content war with some edit warring and mild incivility. Outing maybe, possibly but its not clear. I don't see any 3rr warnings on ThorLives talk page and you should exhaust process there before coming to ANI for a ban ----Snowded TALK 13:46, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Ordinarily I would have waited until the edit warring got worse before bringing up the possibility of blocking/banning or anything like that, however when ThorLives started engaging in outing, which according to Wikipedia:Harassment is "grounds for an immediate block", I came to the opinion that the situation had become more serious and accordingly required a more serious response. (Also, in the spirit of disclosure for all readers, it probably is fair to say that myself and Snowded have had recent disagreements over content at Talk:UK Independence Party, which at points has become a little heated. That certainly doesn't invalidate their comment, but perhaps it is a factor that should be made clear - to use a colloquialism, we have history, as it were). Best, Midnightblueowl (talk) 15:15, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    It just means I notice if your name comes up an ANI Midnight, its the way wikipedia works. Given that you seem well intentioned on the UK Independence issues I looked at this one to see if you needed any help, hence the comment ----Snowded TALK 00:56, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Reading the talk, I get the impression that 'Thor' doesn't fully understand how WP works, in the event of nothing happening here, might I suggest this is a candidate for dispute resolution. Pincrete (talk) 09:54, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Continued victim playing and WP:ICANTHEARYOU by User:Mhhossein

    Over several days, Mhhossein (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been engaged in disruptive victim playing and refusal to get the point in Talk:Nuclear weapon#RfC: Section about Ali Khamenei's views. He requested that I open a report here, so as to settle the issue.[44] The user was also asked by VQuakr (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) to stop the behavior.[45] I previously had requested intervention against his refusal to respect WP:BURDEN here.--Anders Feder (talk) 14:26, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    While there has been tension elsewhere between the two editors, I don't really see what the problem is. The RfC was closed by Anders Feder with everyone's agreement (as far as I can see). (Technically, the initiator of the RfC should not close it, but since everyone agreed, it is ok here, WP:IAR). It was reopened due to a misunderstanding: it was closed while Mhhossein was writing his comment simultaneously (explanation here). The rest is some back-and-forth over politeness, but since everyone agrees over the content, so I do not see what is to be achieved by fighting over this. My suggestion is to simply accept that it was a misunderstanding and bury the hatchet here. Kingsindian ♝♚ 14:44, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment by Mhhossein: First of all I really don't know the reason why Anders Feder wishes to increase the tensions by opening unnecessary topics here. However, he made the opportunity for me to have some explanations on this and I was not really willing to take him here in spite of his background.
      • Nuclear Weapon talk page: I opened a topic on the "Islamic views" on nuclear weapon, and for the beginning I wrote a summary of Khamenei's fatwa regarding nuclear weapons, considering that the section will develop later by other users and other viewpoints will be added from other scholars other than khamaneie. Unfortunately, Anders Feder apparently assumed my bad faith and opened a misleading RFC. In fact, he asked "Should the article include a section devoted to Ali Khamenei's views on nuclear weapons, and if so, should it be titled "Islamic views"? while he could easily write: "Should the article include a section on "Islamic view" and should the section include khamenei's view?. The way he opened the RFC made almost every one think that a section is going to be devoted to Khamenei (read the comments) while it was not the fact . Anyway, almost every one agreed on having a section on "Islamic views" or "religious views", and Feder acted in a manner as if there's no consensus. He got angry and had some impolite comments and I asked him to be cool. He said that the section has the due problem and I answered (my previous comment) if there was a due problem why he had opened a RFC for inclusion? As Kingsindian said, I explained how I was writing my comment simultaneously when the RFC was being closed.
      • Warning by VQuakr: He made a strange warning on my talk page and I answered why the warning really did not apply there.
    • Mhhossein (talk) 04:12, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    There is nothing "strange" at all about VQuakr's message to you. It was completely warranted and evidence that the on-going disruption is being caused by you and no one else, and is not, as Kingsindian erroneously and counter-productively characterizes it, "tension between editors". The sole source of disruption is you, and it will continue across Wikipedia until admin action is taken against you, as I correctly predicted in the previous ANI.
    Your other claims are obviously false as anyone can see from the talk page.--Anders Feder (talk) 05:14, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    His message was just strange to my eyes and it simply could have been not strange to yours! As it seems you believe that all what I said was wrong while all what you say is right. If you are sure that I'm the sole source of the problems, be cool because the admins know what to do by theme selves and don't need us to tell them what to do. Mhhossein (talk) 06:57, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    If you want to pretend that you are cool, no one has required you to respond. Admins often do not know what to do with tendentious editors like you until they become aware of the amount of disruption you are causing. That is the whole point of ANI.--Anders Feder (talk) 07:34, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Another Comment by Mhhossein: Pinging @Sa.vakilian: as I had consulted him regarding personal attacks by Andres Feder. More about Andres Feder:
      • Andres Feder hounding me: On some pages, he appears just after I edit them. He even does the same on the talk pages. His edit in Nuclear weapons is an example. Assuming his good faith, he is trying to enhance the encyclopedia, but how can one call these edits anything but harassment ([46]-[47]-[48]?) and I had asked him to stop hounding me two times (one time on his talk page (which was removed by him) and one time on an article talk page where he had hounded me).
      • Andres personal attack over several months: There's a long list of personal attacks by Andres Feder:
    1- here, this editor, Andres Feder, insisted on insulting religion by repeating the phrase "degenerate religious thinking", and here by referring to “all religious fiction” and saying that "all religious texts are fictional", even when I told him that Wikipedia does not care what our beliefs are. He further insulted me by saying, "You can believe in whatever figments of imagination you want!", after which I warned him and asked him to respect the beliefs of others.
    2- He always pretends that I am upset because of the policies, but I try to respect the policies and his behavior has irritated me.
    -Me: "This is the last time you are insulting my beliefs, I respect yours so please respect mine."[49]
    - Editor: "If these policies cause you offence, you are free to set up your own wiki and use any sources you want there". [50]
    -Me: "Of course We are not talking about the policies. The policies are highly required for maintaining an encyclopedia. This is you who causes offense to one's beliefs."
    [51]
    3- The editor tries to use insulting sentences and examples even when we are discussing something else. When I asked "Lightbreather" to guide me on this, Feder came in and said " Not to support the Iranian dictatorship or any other church-state".[52]
    Or here he used this example which is in fact an insult to Khomeini:
    "According to Ayatollah Khomeini, God likes sick-minded and deranged forms of punishment"[53]
    4-I tried to solve the problem through his talk page, but he made more attacks and removed exchanges [54]
    There he said, "you expect me to respect someone who everyone knows was a deranged madman?" (referring to the Iranian Ayatollah Khomeini).
    5- He was given another request to be polite, but he removed that message, too:
    [55]
    6- Some other insults are here: [56]-[57]-[58]. Mhhossein (talk) 08:09, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    When bad-faith editors fill Wikipedia with Iranian state propaganda, good-faith editors will naturally show up to remove it. If that is what you think "hounding" is, then "hounding" is completely fundamental to the way Wikipedia works: contrary to what you believe, Wikipedia is not the place to promote your favorite totalitarian regimes. (And please point me to the policy that prohibits "insulting" "Iranian Ayatollah Khomeini". Maybe you are confusing the policies that apply on Wikipedia with the anti-democratic authoritarian laws that apply in your own country, according to which so-called insults against the "Supreme Leader" is punishable with nothing less barbaric than death?)--Anders Feder (talk) 10:47, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I know Mhhossein and Anders Feder very well and participate in many discussions with them. Andres is right when he says "Wikipedia is not the place to promote ... ", but I think he does not pay attention to WP:FAITH. He is suspicious about the other editors who have different viewpoints like Mhhossein, thus discusses in a way that looks arrogant and offensive.--Seyyed(t-c) 11:21, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Please pay attention to WP:FAITH2. AGF does not mean that everyone on Wikipedia actually is in good faith, or that one must assume it when the contrary has been clearly demonstrated.--Anders Feder (talk) 11:50, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm looking over some of those links, and I'm missing an important element: where these "personal" attacks are against Mhhossein. Anders Feder is certainly insulting towards the government of Iran and Ayatollah Khomeini, but as he correctly states, there is no Wikipedia guideline or policy requiring him to be nice to either on talk pages, except in so far as his edits on relevant articles must reflect NPOV. Nor does him editing some of the same articles as Mhhossein constitute "hounding."

    That being said, Anders Feder is being unnecessarily caustic towards Mhhossein, and he ought to start practicing more civility before people push for an interaction ban. Ravenswing 11:25, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    In the absence of administrator action against Mhhossein, unambiguous language is unfortunately the only language he understands. The moment he stops promoting his personal politico-religious causes on Wikipedia, I will not even need to interact with him.--Anders Feder (talk) 11:35, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    @Anders Feder: It is ok to disagree, even vehemently, with sourcing - but I fail to understand comments like "Sayyid Mahdi Modarresi is no more a professional than a dancer in the adult entertainment industry is a professional". For example, I don't go around calling Israel a "ethnocratic colonial imperial warmonger state", even though I have a POV and edit a lot in WP:ARBPIA. There is no need to use such caustic language, especially when talking about religious beliefs, which people are very touchy about, when you can simply make the point that the source is not WP:RS. I see your actions otherwise as mostly right in insisting on WP:RS. I see Mhhossein as in the wrong in this particular instance, but willing to improve. You are of course not forced to respond to everything which the other user says: if you are running out of patience/time, simply tell them to open an RfC/RSN discussion as I did here: Talk:Quds_Day#Sentence_from_Chicago_Monitor. Kingsindian ♝♚ 11:51, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    There is indeed no need for any one user to do anything on Wikipedia, because Wikipedia is not compulsory. There is no law or policy preventing us all from leaning back and letting trolls and POV-pushers take over. However, that is not my point. I have not implied that there is.--Anders Feder (talk) 12:01, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    @Anders Feder: I am sorry that you don't see that comparing a religious figure to a dancer in the sex industry is gratuitous and unnecessary. It is of course important to push back against religious POV-pushers etc., but there is no reason to be gratuitously offensive in doing so. (This is irrelevant of whether Mhhossein actually is such an editor: certainly no case of him being one has been made here). I see mostly good faith disagreements on the talk page, in this instance you are correct about WP:RS and so on. Kingsindian ♝♚ 12:21, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Of course it isn't necessary for you, since you aren't one trying to do the pushing. It's trivial to sit sanctimoniously perched and tell others how "gratuitous and unnecessary" their actions are. It is another matter to actually do something to push back against religious POV-pushers etc.--Anders Feder (talk) 12:36, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    @Anders Feder: Indeed, I have no experience whatsoever in contentious topic areas. This is why I choose to edit in WP:ARBPIA, which is free from trolls, POV-pushers, racists and sockpuppets. More seriously, every editor in this thread has flagged your caustic and unnecessary comments, while appreciating your work in trying to uphold WP:RS. You would do well to heed their advice. This is my last comment on this matter. Kingsindian ♝♚ 12:48, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    @Anders Feder: Can you prove your accusations? You would, if you could! Mhhossein (talk) 13:03, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Please be polite and respect the etiquette. Your overuse of exclamation marks amount to shouting, and does not make you seem more intelligent. I am happy to respond to anyone asks a normal question.--Anders Feder (talk) 13:15, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    As I said, they were needed uses! Mhhossein (talk) 14:02, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I shall remember that the next time you engage in victim-playing over something I said. Thanks.--Anders Feder (talk) 14:16, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Ravenswing: Thanks for your intervention. Did you check the links like those in item #1? there he said "degenerate religious thinking" and "all religious texts are fictional", "You can believe in whatever figments of imagination you want!" I would never talk about one's belief in such a place and he should learn to respect others view point. Even if those statements are right, they should be stated in related articles using reliable sources, as I have told him before. Thank you again. Mhhossein (talk) 11:53, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Kingsindian:Thanks for your intervention. I would even more thankful if you could tell me how I was wrong? Mhhossein (talk) 11:57, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    As I told before in my talk page, focusing on the religious or political issues and trying to judge them with caustic language instead of discussion about improving the article is the main reason of controversy. --Seyyed(t-c) 12:02, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    No, the sole reason of controversy is repeated attempts to promote religious and political agendas on Wikipedia despite innumerous reminders that this is direct violation of policy. Without these promotional efforts, no interaction would be required. And what's worse, those efforts damage real, mainspace content, whereas the kerfuffle regarding talk page commentary is mainly a sideshow.--Anders Feder (talk) 12:11, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    @Anders Feder: Do you accuse him for WP:POVPUSH!!! Do you have evidence for it?--Seyyed(t-c) 12:22, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    In the words of Mhhossein, please "be polite and respect the etiquette" - unneeded overuse of exclamation marks is considered shouting.--Anders Feder (talk) 12:40, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, but your case was the needed use of exclamation because as you see almost every one flagged your caustic and unnecessary comments. Mhhossein (talk) 13:57, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    (edit conflict)I was going to ask the same question. From this discussion it seems to me that User:Anders Feder confuses including a neutrally worded, well-sourced section on a mainstream religious viewpoint with promoting that viewpoint. Regarding the RfC itself, User:Mhhossein will have seen the "Edit conflict" message when trying to save his changes, and should therefore not have reopened the discussion; that said, as was mentioned above, arguably Anders Feder should not have closed his own RfC and with hindsight it seems the discussion wasn't entirely over.
    I don't see any need for punitive Admin action against either user. I suggest the RfC stays open for now and that a request for admin closure is logged at WP:AN in a couple of days' time. WaggersTALK 12:43, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    There is no confusion. Assigning undue importance to a single aspect of a subject while masquerading it as a "neutrally worded, well-sourced section" is a well-known method of tendentious editing.--Anders Feder (talk) 12:53, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Waggers: I think the discussion is some thing beyond a RFC. One may be confused why he has opened a topic in this board. Andres Feder's harsh language disturbs the atmosphere and hinders reaching a consensus. As he is stuck in a systemic bias he can't accept a disagreement and instead expresses himself using uncivil statements (lots of them presented above). Most of the editors here asked him to practice civility but he ignores to get that. I'm asking you to prosecute the case of his being impolite, hounding and personal attacks. Also he should prove his accusations of POV pushing if there's a case. He considers everything published in Iran as propaganda and every one who holds a viewpoint in support of Iran to have a neutral text is promoting propaganda. I noticed his bias in my first encounter with him last year and I told him that. You can follow this section to get the point. At the beginning of the discussion he said "Yes, people on a crusade to promote their religion on Wikipedia unfortunately often indulge in edit warring because they are unable to have their propaganda included under regular standards of reliability and neutrality, as if being disruptive would somehow make them seem more convincing." Mhhossein (talk) 13:33, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Please drop the ridiculous references to civility since you obviously are incapable of being civil yourself.[59] It is just an attempt on your part to distract attention from your tendentious editing in mainspace. The only thing that disturbs the atmosphere and hinders consensus is your political and religious agendas - I have done nothing in the RfC to hinder consensus. On the contrary, I proposed a close on what seemed to be the agreed outcome, but you—not me—instead continued arguing. As for the reliability of state-controlled media in Iran, see the closing comment at the top of this RfC.--Anders Feder (talk) 14:19, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree with pretty much everything Kingsindian has written here (especially his advice to Anders Feder). While Mhhossein does clearly push his own POV to an extent it's on a relatively lowkey level (the whole adding a section on Khamenei to the nuclear weapons article was over the top though). If Mhhossein was topic banned for POV pushing we'd have to ban pretty much every single other person editing in the topic area too. Brustopher (talk) 14:48, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    @Brustopher: I just found it necessary to remind you that per WP:POVPUSH, "POV-pushing is a term used on Wikipedia to describe the aggressive presentation of a particular point of view in an article, particularly when used to denote the undue presentation of minor or fringe ideas," and also "calling someone a "POV-pusher" is uncivil and pejorative, and even characterizing edits as POV-pushing should be done cautiously." Remember that "editing a POV in an article that corresponds with one's own personal beliefs is not necessarily POV-pushing." Did I aggressively tried to present a particular POV? How? Please read my "Nuclear Weapon talk page" comment. Thanks. Mhhossein (talk) 19:00, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Gah, too much nesting. Anyway ... in response to Mhhossein's comment to me, yes, I did see those links. Once again, I remind you that while being disrespectful towards your faith or nation might be uncivil (depending on the context), it does not constitute an actionable personal attack on you, and is not a prima facie violation of Wikipedia policies or guidelines.

      To Anders Feder ... eeesh, you're just digging yourself deeper here. Were Mhhossein a paid agent, here solely to push the nasty, nasty views of the Iranian government (sarcasm flag up), the situation wouldn't warrant your repeated language. If you think he's posting objectionably, open a RfC. What you don't get to do is claim -- as you did to me -- that his postings somehow exempts you from the civility rules. You're starting to sound like someone who would warrant an interaction ban. Ravenswing 17:33, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Really? Then so be it - I am not going to pretend that tendentiousness is acceptable to avoid some phony ban.--Anders Feder (talk) 18:03, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Quite aside from that it's darkly amusing that someone complaining about tendentiousness feels the need to rebut every statement anyone makes, you're still bound by WP:CIVIL, however much you believe that Mhhossein is some great evil who needs to be stopped at all costs. I'd take a peek at WP:BOOMERANG in your shoes. Ravenswing 01:33, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    It's darkly amusing how certain people operating on these boards thinks there is some profound truth in threatening to shoot the messenger. A user who have now been blocked thrice pointed me to the same essay to inhibit me from reporting him just a week ago.[60] Seems its some kind of magic word that people invoke when they lack anything substantive to say.--Anders Feder (talk) 05:14, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Anders Feder, we do have something substantive to say, and we have said it. The problem is, you're not listening. I agree with you that WP:WEIGHT is important, but you need to understand that WP:CIVIL is just as important, if not more so. If you're not prepared to tone down your rhetoric we need to address that problem. WaggersTALK 07:27, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    You are saying WP:CIVIL in talk space may be more important than content in mainspace being encyclopedic? Maybe I just do not belong in this community then - too bad.--Anders Feder (talk) 07:44, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Whether content is "encyclopedic" or not is often quite subjective, and you can't be wearing blinkers so thick as to not realize that there are those who disagree with your take on things, or -- we would hope -- that disagreeing with you is not by definition sinister or suspect. WP:CIVIL, by contrast, is a policy of Wikipedia which all editors are required to follow. If you are unable (or unwilling) to follow its provisions, then you're dead on the money: you don't belong here. Ravenswing 09:21, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Then block me, or ask someone else to.--Anders Feder (talk) 10:21, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I said I will not comment more, but since this seems to be spiraling out of control, I should say something (A wise man once said: "there are no winners at WP:ANI, only survivors"). Anyone who knows me (of course nobody does here, not their fault) knows that I am in general not in favour of WP:CIVILity arguments (see here for an example), since they are often bogus. However, civility is important, and Anders Feder gives no reason why he insists on using incivil language gratuitously. See the exchange here, for instance. Note that Sa.vakilian also disagreed with Mhhossein about whether the source is WP:RS, but it was policy based, with no gratuitous remarks such as "God likes sick-minded and deranged forms of punishment ref Ayatollah Khomeini /ref" by Anders Feder. From the focus of Anders Feder's work, I see in many places that his judgement and work are good, but this kind of behaviour does nobody any favours, least of all himself. If Anders Feder's record and work were not good, my judgement about his behaviour would be much harsher, precisely because I think that content is what matters ultimately. Kingsindian ♝♚ 10:35, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Unsurprisingly, Mhhossein's behavior continues unfazed.[61]--Anders Feder (talk) 07:44, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Where have I claimed that those two statements "violate" any policy?--Anders Feder (talk) 10:21, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    This is the admin notice board for serious incidents, not the "I don't like the tone of his voice" board. If you're posting those diffs here, you're claiming that those are objectionable statements in violation of policy. If you're not claiming that they constitute policy violations, then you're wasting our time. So ... Ravenswing 10:47, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Am I really? According to what authority?--Anders Feder (talk) 11:08, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Anders Feder: Are you referring to a policy being violated? Mhhossein (talk) 11:33, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I am referring to the same as VQuakr: [62]. Do you need a policy to see that badgering is contrary to consensus-building?--Anders Feder (talk) 11:53, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    No need to explain it here. I already did it. Mhhossein (talk) 12:22, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Already did what?--Anders Feder (talk) 12:32, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Solutions

    Honestly, this is looking like a WP:BOOMERANG case to me; I've seen far more by way of objectionable postings and tendentious behavior from Anders Feder than from Mhhossein. I'm therefore proposing that Anders Feder be placed under an interaction ban with Mhhossein, and that at worst Mhhossein be cautioned to rein in the rhetoric and practice more civility in his own postings. Ravenswing 10:47, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Slanderous accusations by user Lute88

    On 29 August 2015, I read the sentence "Politkovskaya was found dead in the lift, in her block of flats in central Moscow on 7 October 2006, the birthday of Vladimir Putin” in the ‘Murder, investigation and trial’ section of the article Anna Politkovskaya. I felt that the implied connection between the murder of Politkovskaya and Putin’s birthday was an innuendo bordering on libel and thus had no place in an encyclopedia. Therefore, I deleted it. It was immediately reinstated by user Lute88. I deleted it again with an explanation, but it was again reinstated by Lute88 without explanation. After this went on for some time, I brought the matter to the talk page of the article in the section ‘Putin's Birthday & the lead’. There, I found the support of an admin,Drmies. There ensued a heated discussion with another editor,My very best wishes, later joined by Lute88. Drmies explained why the mention of Putin’s birthday was inappropriate and said she was going to delete it. She did so and was immediately reverted by Lute88. After that, Lute88 made a post where he asked why he "was smelling something" and provided a link to a CNN article about Russian trolls paid by Putin. Drmies remarked that this was not funny and I asked her to convince him to stop because I would hate to take the matter further. He replied with this new post: "No fun intended. Againstdisinformation has been pushing the proRussian POV envelope here for some time. And there has been recent media coverage of some professional (and paid too) POV promoters on Wiki. Just being vigilant…"

    I asked him to take his words back, but he made no response. That decided me to bring the matter here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Againstdisinformation (talk • contribs) 22:50, 7 September 2015‎ (UTC)[reply]

    Although I agree that, absent some strong evidence of a connection, the death should not be linked to Putin's birthday, this is essentially a content dispute and should be dealt with on the article's talk page. BMK (talk) 03:10, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    BMK I may be wrong but I believe that Againstdisinformation is here to for Lute88 to "take back" the comment 'No fun intended. Againstdisinformation has been pushing the proRussian POV envelope here for some time. And there has been recent media coverage of some professional (and paid too) POV promoters on Wiki. Just being vigilant' - it seems the content dispute has been sorted. Flat Out (talk) 03:16, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, I see that, but Antidisinformation threw around words like "libel" and "slander" in the discussion from the very beginning, which is now getting pretty darn close to violating WP:NLT, so he's not really in a position to demand anything from anybody. BMK (talk) 03:24, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Againstdisinformation there is no possibility of slander when no-one knows who you are. Both you and Lute88 have been edit warring and this is no way to solve a simple content dispute. The best way to resolve these kinds of disputes is to walk away and work on another article. As BMK notes above, you should read WP:NLT and I would add WP:3RR Flat Out (talk) 03:27, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Certanly no edit-warring on my part. Antidisinformation however is an SPA that has been edit-warring with a lot of people on Russia-related articles, with total disregard for consensus, RS, 3RR, with legal threats, and now - this. Simply preposterous.--Lute88 (talk) 22:50, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    This is the article that piqued my vigilance - http://news.yahoo.com/wikipedia-blocks-accounts-linked-paid-edits-200646137.html;_ylt=AwrC0wwVZ.9VMkQAeCPQtDMD;_ylu=X3oDMTByOHZyb21tBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg-- .Lute88 (talk) 22:56, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    This has nothing to do with "vigilance". You just threw that at me as an insult out of frustration when you realised that sensible editors were on my side and you were prevented by an admin to reinstate your preposterous innuendo connecting Putin's birthday and Politkovskaya's murder. Your Russophobic passion has blinded you to the point of believing that anyone who doesn't share it is necessarily paid by the Kremlin. I sincerely hope you come back to your senses. Againstdisinformation (talk) 00:03, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • And this is precisely what I warned you about in my previous comment here: groundless personal accusations. What "Russophobic passion"? Why? Any reasons for blaming Lute88 of this? It is an ethnically-motivated slander by you, much worse than expressing suggestion that someone might be a COI contributor. And you came here to complain about slander... My very best wishes (talk) 02:17, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    BMK, Flat Out is right, the dispute has already been sorted by the felicitous intervention of Drmies. However, I cannot agree that User:Lute88 can throw any kind of insults at me, just because he does not know my identity. I cannot agree either that I violated WP:NLT because I called a spade a spade. Yes, his accusation is slanderous and I am certain of what your reaction would be if it were thrown at you. Now, you say that I "threw around words like "libel" and "slander" in the discussion from the very beginning". I am afraid that your reading has been cursory. I didn't say at the very beginning that I had been libelled, I just tried to make my opponent aware that, the innuendo he made about Putin would without any doubt be considered libel in a court of law, unless he had incontrovertible evidence. Therefore, I think this has no place in an encyclopedia, which must remain neutral. He can always write this in The Daily Mirror, if he so wishes. Besides, I am not asking for a sanction, I would just like him to take back his words, which, I am sorry to say, I take as an insult. In any case, it's a great comfort for me to see that you agree with me on substance. Againstdisinformation (talk) 04:36, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Againstdisinformation are you saying you have been libeled? Flat Out (talk) 04:39, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Flat Out Yes, I consider that accusing me in no uncertain terms of being paid by the Kremlin for editing WP is slanderous. Againstdisinformation (talk) 13:14, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Againstdisinformation - they aren't withdrawing the comment, which is why you came here, so might be best to move on. Flat Out (talk) 00:39, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The more that is said here, the more confused I become. It's becoming impossible to tell who is supposedly being libeled, slandered or whatever. Since the dispute apparently has been sorted it would be best to drop the matter. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 04:54, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah I'm fairly confused as well. Saying that person A murdered person X on person 3's birthday is clearly not libel for the person 3 unless it's also implied that person 3 supported or sanctioned the murder. While I can't recall any examples offhand, there have definitely been cases when nutty person A have done something (whether murder or whatever) out of their "love" for person 3, where person 3 is horrified by the actions. It may be libel for person A who did the murder to give them incorrect motiviations, but while we should get these things right, I'm not sure libel is ever our biggest concern for murderers even if it's theoretically there. (Of course calling them murderers when they are not would raise more serious libel concerns.) Nil Einne (talk) 05:53, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Short Brigade Harvester Boris, Nil Einne, I undersand why there may be confusion, there are two cases. The object of the dispute between User:Lute88 and me is the sentence: "Politkovskaya was found dead in the lift, in her block of flats in central Moscow on 7 October 2006, the birthday of Vladimir Putin”. I mentioned to User:Lute88 that, in a court of law, this would without any doubt be considered libel, and I added that, moreover, it was preposterous. This was my argument why it should be removed from the article. A number of editors have agreed with me and this matter is now settled. Note that, at that point, i did not accuse him of slandering me, of course, I am not Mr. Putin. However, he was unhappy with the decision taken by admin Drmies and lashed out at me on the talk page of the article, a first time asking why he "was smelling something" and providing a link to a CNN article about Russian trolls paid by Putin. That was already very offensive but, after he was admonished by User:Drmies, who told him it was not funny, he added "No fun intended. Againstdisinformation has been pushing the proRussian POV envelope here for some time. And there has been recent media coverage of some professional (and paid too) POV promoters on Wiki. Just being vigilant…". This is this direct accusation that I am paid by the Kremlin for editing WP which, in my strongly felt opinion, is slanderous. I asked him to take his words back, but he wouldn't. This is why I took the matter here. As I have already said, I am not seeking a sanction against him, I just would very much like that he be told to take back his words. If he did, that would be the end of the matter for me. Againstdisinformation (talk) 12:37, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    There's actually more than a dozen of such sources. It is a notable fact given the circumstances and that's how sources treat it. Volunteer Marek  20:39, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Guy If you want to ban me for "being a painfully obvious Warrior For Truth" as you elegantly put it, you should leave the innuendo about Putin and give a medal to Lute88 for slandering me, at least that would be consistent. 13:37, 8 September 2015 (UTC)Againstdisinformation (talk)[reply]

    • Ah yes. I did in fact support the removal of that one clause, and I gave my reasons on the talk page, though it may be difficult to find between all the mud-slinging. I don't see libel or slander, just a couple of editors with their own POV bitching at each other. This is NPA territory, as far as I'm concerned, and I urged the two editors to tone it down, clearly to no avail. Drmies (talk) 14:07, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • User Againstdisinformation is clearly engaged in WP:BATTLE and WP:SOAP by starting irrelevant and contentions discussions like here, demanding an apology like here and by edit-warring on multiple pages. I think this is a textbook example of WP:NOTHERE, a "disruption only" account. My very best wishes (talk) 14:36, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • I agree, but! if it weren't for them that silly "coincidence" would still be in the article. Gadflies are irritating but sometimes necessary--if only this one wasn't so loquacious. (First time I wrote that word! Woohoo!) Drmies (talk) 14:54, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    As should be clear from sources already provided on the talk page by VM and others, this is not a silly coincidence, but something considered significant in multiple RS. Yes, this must be better described and better sourced - I agree. But here is the question: even if you consider his removal on this page a positive contribution, did it worth wasting other people time by starting this ANI thread, other soap-like discussions (link above) and edit wars on a number of pages? However, this is probably a question only WP:AE can answer. If he/she will not be blocked now, I would expect a prolonged drama and waste of time on numerous page. This is already a pattern. My very best wishes (talk) 15:19, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    My very best wishes, now you agree that there was a problem with the page but, never mind that I pointed it out (like a number of others) and got insulted by Lute88 for it, he is making us lose time. Let's just ban him and these pesky issues of inaccuracies will disappear. Why then did you, volunteer Marek and Lute88 consistently refuse to discuss the issue with me on the article's talk page, if your only concern was to save the community's time? On this waste of time, I beg to differ. There should be a whole team of editors dedicated to tracking inaccuracies (disinformation) if instead of using WP to further an agenda, we want to preserve it as a repository of knowledge anyone can trust.

    Lute88, My very best wishes, Volunteer Marek and Ymblanter are all defending the same POV, roughly stated: Russia is evil. This is their right. However, my goal is to help (as much as my capacities allow) to rid Wikipedia of inaccuracies or, worse, disinformation. I knew this would not attract much sympathy but I did not expect a witch hunt. Now, there is a whole group who share a strongly felt common point of view on everything that concerns Russia and they are hellbent on having me out, because I am an irritant to them. It's very funny that I am accused of WP:BATTLE wwhen Lute88 has erased, without trying to discuss with me, any single edit I made in the last ten days. Now, My very best wishes promised him to help him on the ANI and, of course, here he is trying to put me in as bad a light as he can. This is very sad. I would have preferred, as I have asked many times, a reasoned discussion on the substance of the issues I raised, but I have been consistently dismissed by them.I think this is a loss of time. Why could he not just acknowledge that he went a bit too far when he accused me of being paid by Putin? I would just have said ok, that's alright and all this would not even have started. Againstdisinformation (talk) 15:14, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    "Volunteer Marek and Ymblanter are all defending the same POV, roughly stated: Russia is evil" - Didn't you just show up here to whine about how you're bring "slandered"? Volunteer Marek  20:41, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Making factually incorrect statements and accusing others without evidence on the ANI is a very bad idea. In particular, (a) no one refused to discuss anything with you (there are very long discussions on article talk pages by numerous users), (b) none of the users you mentioned have "evil" POV you stated, (c) at least three users (including me) on the article talk page did not agree with your removal of this info (this is something debatable), (d) I did not promise Lute88 to "help" on the ANI, etc. My very best wishes (talk) 16:17, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Who is making factually incorrect statements. Let me quote you: "I know these subjects and might be willing to help with sourcing, but discussing anything with such guys again is something I would rather not do". This is taken from the 'A comment' section of Lute88' talk page, which is entirely devoted to me. It's absolutely your right to come to his defense, but this shows also that you were, let's say, reluctant to discuss the issue with me. And where did I ever state that any user had an "evil" POV? Everyone of us has a POV and it would be ludicrous to describe any POV as "evil". It is precisely through the confrontation of POVs that we can hope to achieve impartiality or, at least, consensus. Againstdisinformation (talk) 16:37, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't see any reason to continue this discussion here. As others have said, there's no point demanding someone apologise, and ANI isn't the place for that any way. The rest is a content dispute which can be resolved either on the article talk page, or via some other method of WP:dispute resolution. Nil Einne (talk) 03:34, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Nil Einne, I think you are right. This has gone on for too long now and we might as well leave it at that. However, I am not asking an apology from Lute88, I am just asking him to take back his claim that I am paid by the Kremlin. He does not have to apologise, he can just say that he didn't really mean what he said and all would be forgotten. Againstdisinformation (talk) 04:41, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Still not something for ANI, at most a single request on the editor's talk page. Nil Einne (talk) 05:06, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Given the short amount of time Againstdisinformation has been actively 'editing' here, there's been an awful lot of community time sunk into "I've been hard done by" agitation, and "I'm here to right great wrongs" (i.e., WP:NOTHERE). It grew very WP:TEDIOUS some time ago (see this and this ANI). Jangled nerves, hurt feelings, and complaints every time there's a personality clash do not make for useful gadflies but, rather, a needy entity who confuses experienced editors over what the real issue at stake is. There's been no lack of patience been shown the user by other editors, yet the ICANTHEARYOU attitude persists. I truly believe that Againstdisinformation needs to gain more experience in editing articles s/he doesn't feel emotionally invested in before jumping into contentious areas of Wikipedia. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 06:15, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Iryna Harpy I agree with you on one point. ANI was not the proper venue for the dispute between Lute88 and me. I have come to realize this. It is unhelpful and a great loss of time, especially for me. I am reluctant by nature to report anyone as I have already told Lute88. This is the first and last time I do it. However, Lute88 has been erasing almost every edit I made in the last ten days, without any explanation. I did not complain. He only entered the discussion on the talk page of the article Anna Politkovskaya after an admin agreed with me and deleted the contentious phrase. He also reverted her but she told him she would have none of it. Probably not happy with this, he suggested I was paid by the Kremlin. The admin told him that this was not funny and I asked him to take back his words. His response was: 'No fun intended. Againstdisinformation has been pushing the proRussian POV envelope here for some time. And there has been recent media coverage of some professional (and paid too) POV promoters on Wiki. Just being vigilant.’ Is this civil behaviour ? Now, I don’t see why you provide links to two ANI, which are supposed to shed a bad light on my behavior. The first one was brought against me by Reaganomics88 about misplaced quotation marks. An edit already long since corrected and for which I had apologized (talking of wasting the community’s time). The second ANI was brought against Reaganomics by a third editor and I have nothing to do with it. It's true that, in trying to improve what I perceive as biased articles, I have attracted a lot of animosity, but I challenge you to find a single instance of rudeness, threats or complaints on my part. I have always tried (without much success) to discuss the content and I have never made any ad hominem attack. Againstdisinformation (talk) 13:25, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    @Againstdisinformation: You're working on the premise that being uncivil is easily identified by personal attacks. No, it is not that cut and dry. Read WP:IUC on Other uncivil behaviours. Introducing this to the talk page of the "2014–15 Russian military intervention in Ukraine" was not determined by your wanting to 'improve Wikipedia', but to behave in an intentionally disruptive and provocative manner (aside from canvassing/advertising for fellow 'righteous' brother and sisters in arms to join you in your battle for the truth). After this was removed from the talk page, you reinstated it twice after two editors had already removed it. There's no small irony in the fact that you've painted yourself as being the victim of Groupthink, yet you're trying to enlist like-minded editors to create your own Groupthink battalion... and all after you have had numerous editors patiently (escalating to impatiently) trying to explain Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, and your responding with what have become obviously ingenuous apologies for the error of your ways, and that you now know better and won't repeat them. Is stuffing beans up your nose just a compulsion you can't shake, or is this evidence that you're WP:NOTHERE in any shape or form, and have no intention of trying to be HERE? 'But I've never made any personal attacks' does not make you a civil editor: it just means that you want to WP:GAME the system by hook or by crook. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 07:54, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Indef block Againstdisinformation until such time that they can understand the difference between a snippy remark and a full on personal attack, until such time that they understand that badgering the opposition (through repeated and loquacious postings) does not make for a collaborative editing environment, until such time that they have familiarized themselves with wikipedia rules/policy/practices/guidelines including WP:RGW. Reading this complaint provides nothing more than a single editor doubling down on doubling down on a content problem. We've already expended enough time/energy on this editor without extracting certain guarantees of improved behavior. Hasteur (talk) 17:32, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support indef block for Againstdisinformation. The reason: she/he continue making factually incorrect accusations against other users right on this noticeboard, even after being warned about it. In particular, Againstdisinformation complained about being followed by Lute88 who allegedly refused to discuss. But in fact just the opposite occurred on this page. As clear from the editing history, it was Againstdisinformation who came to revert edit by Lute88, not the other way around (unless another red-linked account was an alternative account of Againstdisinformation). And it was Lute88 who started discussion on this article talk page [63], but received no response from Againstdisinformation. My very best wishes (talk) 19:11, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    If you think that it is OK to frivolously accuse an editor to be "paid by the Kremlin" and that not understanding that it is just a "snippy remark" deserves being indefinitely blocked then, please, do it. I am used to polite academic debate, not to trading insults. This is the last post I make to explain my perception of what happened, I am growing tired of an almost palpable aggressivity on the part of some editors. Againstdisinformation (talk) 20:38, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I never said it was OK. This is not OK. Once again, you accuses someone of something he never did or said. My very best wishes (talk) 22:45, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I can see only one minor edit by Againstdiscrimination on this page. Is it all one can tell in favor of this user? I am not even sure this edit was an improvement because it has been reverted later by FPS. My very best wishes (talk) 22:45, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    @My very best wishes: your link is to the article page; look at the talk page.-- Toddy1 (talk) 05:04, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    OK, here is my reading of this. Timoshenko was put in prison by Yanukovich government for political reasons. That is what sources tell. Againstdisinformation is trying to minimize significance of this by referring to a remotely relevant primary source. I can't blame FPS who reverted this in the article (diff above). This is not a positive contribution by Againstdisinformation. My very best wishes (talk) 11:52, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I agree, I do not think that Againstdisinformation is a disruption only account but they have shown a long term pattern of disruptive editing that appears to push a pro-Russian agenda. They have a tendency to twist the truth for their convenience and portray themselves as a victim of aggression whenever they do not get their own way (I personally found myself accused of being part of some kind of shady conspiracy that had been formed to act against them). I think some kind of admin intervention is needed as the rules have been explained to them countless times yet they show no signs of improving their behaviour. --Reaganomics88 (talk) 21:25, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I note that ADI is talk page harassing people who are opposing them on their talk pages Hasteur (talk) 01:14, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Ah, slander and libel, that's not really what is happening here. If Againstdisinformation is indefinitely blocked, it's probably because they talk too much. The posts on the talk pages of Hasteur and Reaganomics are a bit silly, and unwise, but it doesn't rise to the level of harassment. Lute88's comments aren't really sanctionable, but they're very uncollegial, and thus also unwise. Now, that I happen to agree with Againstdisinformation on that birthday thing in that one article doesn't mean I don't consider their edits to exhibit a pro-Russian slant. So I'm torn a bit, not in the least because the stubborn resistance to the birthday thing revealed a similar contrasting POV from the other side; I can't help but wonder what would have happened if I hadn't come along and played the admin. I'm pretty sure that Againstdisinformation wouldn't have been able to solve that problem by themselves, since their comments are simply too wordy and their tone too sarcastic, besides having that POV. So yeah, I'll break a lance for them, just a little bit, but that's also because I am a bit disappointed with the opponents. (Not Volunteer Marek, of course, who I despise for football-related reasons.) Drmies (talk) 03:57, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, I talked with him, but did not see anything encouraging. For example, the way he mentioned you here is troubling. My very best wishes (talk) 05:18, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    It is not troubling that he/she wrote that "it didn't convince Drmies either". Nor is it troubling that he/she asked you sarcastically "do you believe that she [Drmies] too is on the Kremlin's payroll?"-- Toddy1 (talk) 07:51, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, he/she made this edit. I asked what they know about the subject from secondary RS [64]. They did not respond to the question, but said that sources are not important because he/she knows everything already ("Even if I was an alien and I didn't know anything about Russia, the story would still sound preposterous to me" [65]) and implicitly accuses me of supporting claim by Lute88 that I do not support at all [66]. His/her problem is not being "too wordy", but inability (or lack o desire) to contribute constructively to the project. Hence indeff. My very best wishes (talk) 11:52, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support: I dislike indeffing a new editor who's made productive edits, but after a decade-plus on Wikipedia, I don't think I can recall as many as a half-dozen cases where an attitude problem like this calms down to be a productive, civil editor. (I can recall quite a few of the MickMacNees of the world, where a large enough edit count somehow allows them to make hundreds of uncivil edits with impunity.) Better nip this one in the bud. Ravenswing 11:03, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I will not comment on the indefblock, but the claim that I defend[ing the same] POV, roughly stated: Russia is evil is laughable. Last time I was dragged on ANI it was a troublesome Ukrainian user claiming I am a strong pro-Russian POV pusher.--Ymblanter (talk) 11:47, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • So either you're an equal-opportunity offender or just a pro-Slav activist. Or you can't make up your mind and should read Dante's Inferno, Canto 3, as a warning. Drmies (talk) 17:07, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
        If I sum up all accusations in power-pushing in my 8 years here pro-Slav sounds too narrow: I am also pro-Armenian, pro-Azeri, pro-German and I think it was smth else. Inferno, Canto 3 I definitely read several times (in translation; now I should try the original). Sounds the closest to my situation.Ymblanter (talk) 17:30, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Support an indef block for Againstdisinformation. They show no signs of improving and the key issues have been dragging on for months now.

    They appear to be on Wikipedia chiefly to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS (or at least perceived wrongs).

    They have responded in a combative manner to multiple editors and behaved in a manner that violates WP:WQ. This in particular has caused me a great deal of grief personally, just recently I was asked "can you behave like this and still look at yourself in the mirror?" I have lost count of the number of attacks this user has made on myself and other users. If these were isolated incidents then I would believe that just a warning would suffice. However it is clearly a greater trend and is causing damage to the community. This user has to be stopped. Reaganomics88 (talk) 19:03, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I am afraid I agree with Ravenswing , we ought to nip this one in the bud. This is not just about the issue with Lute88, this about a greater civility and WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS issue. This user has been warned countless times yet continued to persist with their behaviour. Reaganomics88 (talk) 20:51, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I think admins might be willing to give Againstdisinformation a little more "rope", however, without having any promises that he will stop making irrelevant political rants (like here [67], [68]) or ridiculously confrontational comments (like here), I am afraid this is going to continue. My very best wishes (talk) 18:27, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I also think that's what happening. Note that I am not swinging my admin tool (yet) here since I am interested in more opinions; clearly too many admins are already bored by the topic and aren't weighing in. That's a shame. As for those three diffs, I think I read AD the riot act about that forum post, and the personal accusation ("go see your shrink"), if I had seen that I might have blocked for it on the spot. More of that, since it does add up, will no doubt lead to a block and they better beware. I mean, Putin is paying me some serious cash (actually, he's paying me in confiscated Dutch cheeses), but there are limits to my loyalty. Drmies (talk) 22:42, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I my opinion Lute88, should be blocked for disruptive editing. He is clearly trying to enforce a specific non-neutral point of view. Ref.
    Volunteer Marek and Skere789 should be warned too. Ref:
    Erlbaeko (talk) 10:09, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Here is the difference between Lute88 and Againstdisinformation. In the diff you provided [69] Lute88 restores a fair summary of something that a reliable source tells. It is enough to make translation of the title from Russian: "Politkovskaya and Putin. Day of death and day of birth." (Политковская и Путин. День смерти и день рождения.). The source does make such connection, and for a number of good reasons. Author of the publication is a well known and a highly respected journalist. A lot of other RS tells exactly the same, as has been already noted on the talk page [70]. On the other hand, "Againstdisinformation" is a perfect "warrior for the truth" who removes this info only because it seems "preposterous" to him [71] and without providing any sources on the subject he does not know and does not want to know (the diff is response to my question on what they read about this). Yes, I agree that Lute88 was wrong. She had to remain civil and rise concerns, if any, on an appropriate noticeboard, such as WP:COINB in this case. Does it warrant this long ANI discussion? No, I do not think so. This long discussion had happened only because of the highly problematic behavior by user Againstdisinformation. My very best wishes (talk) 12:48, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    There is also another difference. Againstdisinformation use the talk page. Lute88 does not. That is true until an admin intervene. First post on that talk page by Lute88 is this: Revision as of 22:00, 7 September 2015, three minutes after the users fourth revert.
    And no, a translation of the title is not enouth. Maybe you can translate this part? "Был ли это подарок ему, или, напротив, кто-то хотел напакостить? Или это мистическое совпадение? Мы не будем гадать сегодня.". This is nothing but speculations and it does violate WP:NPOV to include it. Erlbaeko (talk) 14:31, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    After reading the entire publication it is abundantly clear that it does make such connection: someone killed her on Putin's birthday because she criticized Putin personally. Same claim appears in a large number of English language RS (diff above). As, about "contributions" by Againsdisinformation on this article talk page, here they are (in chronological order): 1st comment, 2nd comment, 3d comment, and so on. It would be much better if he did not take part in this discussion with such comments. My very best wishes (talk) 15:32, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    If you don't want to translate it, maybe you can verify the Google translation of the article? Does the part I quoted translate to; "Was it a gift to him, or, on the contrary, someone wanted to play a prank? Or is it a mystical coincidence? We will not speculate today." or is Google wrong? Erlbaeko (talk) 16:14, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Boaxy behavior at Sailor Moon

    This whole drama started when Boaxy attempted to add several LGBT categories to Sailor Moon and Sailor Moon (anime). However, several editors, including myself, disagreed with the broad interpretation of the categories and opposed the addition. Boaxy then began to edit war over the categories' inclusion until the articles were protected. An RfC was opened at Talk:Sailor Moon by Sjones23 about whether LGBT was a main theme of the series, which concluded that it was not. Boaxy then immediately opened a second RfC about the categories, during which Boaxy threw fits and began attacking other editors for being anti-gay and insisting that Wikipedia be "politically correct".[72][73][74] AlbinoFerret closed the second RfC as no consensus for including the categories.[75] However instead of excepting the outcome of the RfC, Boaxy throws another tantrum, attacking other editors opposing his position, and add the categories despite the closing of the RfC.[76][77][78][79] The editor is clearly here to push a political viewpoint on this particular set of articles and is unwilling to accept that consensus was not in his favor. —Farix (t | c) 12:31, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    • Hmm, second time this morning that the word "petulant" comes to mind. This is obviously editing against consensus and needless cussing. If Boaxy has been here this long they should know the difference between a block and a ban--the former is what they'll get if they continue. Boaxy, drop the stick please. This is silly. Drmies (talk) 14:45, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm not dropping the stick. I am going to permanently infuse it to my hand. I'm sorry for going off, but I'll give a cooling down period before I venture on with this again. This is far from over. I apologize for not controlling my temper, but I still feel those categories should be added to the page. That's like not adding a US Presidents category to Obama's page. It just doesn't make sense. You have a pop culture television series in which four of the eight or so main characters are homosexual, and you don't add LGBT categories? This is some Twilight Zone crap. Boaxy (talk) 05:27, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • @Boaxy: Argh. Instead of threatening to edit war indefinitely, why not find a few reliable sources that discuss LGBT themes in Sailor Moon and add them to the article? According to a quick Google search, there is discussion of them. Since you know the show, I'm sure you could find even better results than I found. Don't get yourself blocked over this. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 06:48, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
        • It is what it is at this point. I'm not going to sugar coat my attitude over something I feel strongly about. I apologized for disrupting the talk page and that is that. This is the place where I plead my case and justify my actions, so I need to be sincere. If you challenge a geologist on the Grand Canyon article, he will be defensive about it. You challenge a pop culture enthusiast, (which is myself) on an article related to a television series he grew up watching and is a big supporter of, he will be defensive. To me there is already enough sources and references on the article to back the categories being added. But for the sake of Wikipedia, I will try to contribute more. In the same token, I have to go through this all over again, and again it has to be in consensus to be included which even then they still might not be. Ugh. Do you see the issue now? Boaxy (talk) 06:57, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • Boaxy statements above and complete refusal to accept the outcomes of two previous RfC should be enough to warrant a topic ban on all Sailor Moon-related articles. This editor has clearly crossed over into WP:TENDENTIOUSness. —Farix (t | c) 18:34, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support topic ban: Boaxy is becoming both tendentious and point-y. Dragging people to repeated RfC's that are bound to have the same outcome as the previous. Their own words ("I'm not dropping the stick. I am going to permanently infuse it to my hand.") indicate that he will not stop disrupting the project until they get their own way. A topic ban seems more than appropriate. Azealia911 talk 19:57, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • In this message left on Boaxy's user talk in July, someone said that to include the categories would give readers the impression that all Sailor Moon fans are gay. Also, when he attempted to add a WikiProject banner, it was reverted. I don't think it excuses his tendentious behavior, but I can understand some of Boaxy's consternation and frustration over this matter. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 23:19, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support topic ban: enough is enough. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 02:22, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Whether you feel strongly about it or not is irrelevant. You are yet to present reliable sources to back your claims and an RFC produced a consensus not to include the categories. Until you can produce sources that will convince the other editors that your have a point, your refusal to drop the stick is only going to get you blocked. Blackmane (talk) 11:21, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Prolific Croatian puppet master

    What do we do about an editor who, apparently, can change IPs and create accounts at will? This editor makes what appear on first blush to be good-faith edits, primarily to Bianca Ryan and peripherals and Tiffany Evans and peripherals, but who has used multiple IPs and accounts to introduce (and edit war over) original research and create articles that clearly fail GNG. Within minutes after the puppet master was reported, s/he recognized via the second account that the edits were problematic wrt an encyclopedia and has made the conscious choice to continue treating WP as if it is a fan site. Bianca Ryan is already protected; I hope there's something else we can do. —ATinySliver/ATalkPage 🖖 21:15, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    What's worked in the past for me is watch-listing and protecting the main target articles, in combination with quick blocks and reversion of the user's edits. Keep some data (off-line) as to their usual "tells" and IPs used. Well-formulated brief reports at WP:SPI get quick results in blocking the socks. Many of these sockmasters keep it up for years (so great patience and perseverance is needed on your part), but almost all of them eventually give up, especially if they can see that essentially all of their edits are being undone. -- Diannaa (talk) 14:28, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Much obliged. —ATinySliver/ATalkPage 🖖 20:20, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Threat of Outing / Personal Attacks

    Oliv0 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

    Lebob (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

    Azurfrog (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

    Schlum (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

    Hello, 4 users from the French Wikipedia (single purpose accounts on the English Wikipedia to "gain control of the page") are threatening to disclose my identity. This come after an edit war that was closed in my favor and the other side bannished for H24. They can not discuss changes in the articles with edit justification so they have to go through personal attacks. One user warned them about that personal attacks are useless to justify changes, but they continue their threat on that other user. Please note that these users have pushed until 4 times (See here and here!!) of the deletion of the related article of Asselineau and finally changed their position to maintain the article but to influence as a group on the content for the article (by azurfrog who lead the team).

    I will wait the result of this request before requesting an oversight. D0kkaebi (talk) 23:48, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    The behavior of those users is ridiculous (apparently they don't know or care about WP:OWN); however, in none of those diffs did I see anyone threaten to out you. Erpert blah, blah, blah... 23:54, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    @D0kkaebi: I see on your user talk page that you are asking that others not refer to you by a prior user name. Is that the outing of which you are speaking? If so, providing a diff to when someone referred to you by that name, or whatever other name you consider outing, would be helpful. John Carter (talk) 00:25, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    How should D0kkaebi's suspected Conflict of Interest be best dealt with?

    Erpert, Drmies and John Carter: my remark, "shouldn't we, after all, state who D0kkaebi/Lawren00 really is?" meant nothing more than what Schlum just stated below, with appropriate public links showing that Lawren00/D0kkaebi is indeed a very senior lieutenant of François Asselineau within his organization. At the very least, there is enough readily available information to authorize legitimate misgivings about D0kkaebi's "neutrality".
    Reminder: "references to still-existing, self-disclosed information is not considered outing"..
    From which I gather that this entire discussion on these so-called "Threat of Outing / Personal Attacks" is groundless, since they are all based upon "still-existing, self-disclosed information". --Azurfrog (talk) 08:44, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    So did you check the link you are posting? Did you read the first sentence? Let me quote that for you just in case you missed it: "Posting another editor's personal information is harassment, unless that person had voluntarily posted his or her own information, or links to such information, on Wikipedia." Now can you give us a link where Laurent Pawlowski from UPR is claiming being member of Wikipedia under the nickname D0kkaebi? And vice-versa, do you have a link where user:D0kkaebi is claiming being Laurent Pawlowski from UPR? Unless you give us a link that expressly shows that, those information are not voluntarily posted. You are threatening of outing and this, "whether any such information is accurate or not". D0kkaebi (talk) 23:12, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    You are outing yourself here, nobody mentioned your name, only your well-known affiliation to the party when you are the main contributor to the articles about the party and its leader. Oliv0 (talk) 05:50, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, well, well, D0kkaebi... Thank you for coming out at long last, just as I recommended.
    As for myself, I abstained from ever mentioning your personal information, even though you should have.
    Now then, you still have to state to which degree you fall within the scope of Wikimedia Foundation: Disclosure of Paid Editing.
    And please keep in mind: Many believe that users with a potential conflict of interest should engage in transparent collaboration, requiring honest disclosure of paid contributions. Making contributions to the Wikimedia projects without disclosing payment or employment may also lead to legal ramifications --Azurfrog (talk) 17:31, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I am not convinced this kind of "affiliation" (local party leader) is what is meant in WP:DISCLOSEPAY, but in WP:COI certainly, and I now discover (sorry for not being an experienced editor here) that WP:COIN is the right place to go and then allows use of {{Connected contributor}} {{COI}} etc. So since you know best about your conclusion of COI in the French AfD for the party leader Asselineau (and you may remember the results of the simple Google search you mention which then gave more useful results from social networks), maybe you could do it? Oliv0 (talk) 19:45, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:COIN certainly seems an appropriate place to report such a conflict of interest as the one we have to deal with. However, I am not convinced either that it does not fall under WP:DISCLOSEPAY: after all, it is difficult to claim that that a local party leader is not an "affiliate" of his own party, even as defined by WP ("Affiliation refers to other connections that might be relevant"). But you are right, we should probably start by reporting on WP:COIN. --Azurfrog (talk) 08:14, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
     Note: I will have no or little Internet access (in the mountains) for 6 days starting this afternoon, so I will not be able to answer here or help on COIN. Oliv0 (talk) 08:47, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
     Done: Oliv0 - Lebob - D0kkaebi - Schlum
    I just started a request on WP:COIN here.
    So, D0kkaebi, I finally fulfilled what you called my "threat": that is, not "out" personal information about you, but simply disclose your close connection with François Asselineau and his party, as you should have done in the first place.
    Now, on WP as well as anywhere else, I do not think that threatening to place a legitimate request disclosing this connection and the resulting conflict of interest - as I just did - can in any way be considered as a "personal attack". --Azurfrog (talk) 09:23, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    General discussion

    All 4 users notified. Userlinks added to top of thread. Blackmane (talk) 02:21, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I listed all the personal threats above. There are several. If you need additional explanation or links for evidence, let me know. By the way, shall I request for oversight, or shall I wait the result of this incident? I do not feel comfortable seeing my previous nickname and that I am paid by UPR for my contributions on wikipedia D0kkaebi (talk) 03:15, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    No personal attacks or threats in the 2 diffs by me above (I put a nowiki in the first one since it did not display the diff). Outing would mean personal details not already known, but the French AfD I refer to in the first diff mentions at a prominent place as an important fact that Lawren00 is the Lawren00 that could at that time (much less now) be seen on social networks as an activist from the micro-party Popular Republican Union (2007) and among those shown as local leaders on the party's website. The correspondence between D0kkaebi and Lawren00 is something I saw in "What links here" on User:D0kkaebi after I noticed an edit war in which D0kkaebi, who first started undoing disputable changes by Francis Le français, then used the opportunity to modify even more with a definite POV. So I believe this mention of a "POV by D0kkaebi/Lawren00" in the talk page is useful to editors, so that they can have a better view of his frequent arguments and of the possible edit wars on Popular Republican Union (2007) and François Asselineau. As for Wikipedia:Paid-contribution disclosure mentioned in the talk page, I do not think he is paid anything by the micro-party, his POV is rather out of personal conviction. Oliv0 (talk) 06:24, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Your diff mentions half a sentence and your comments on the talk page about personal attacks is 4 lines + 20 from your crew. You justified your revert on several topics and summarized by " addition of "gaullism", "centrist" and removal of section about Internet activism certainly goes against NPOV, article improved by undoing this". Just to discuss one claim, Centrism has been extensively discussed on the talk page here and the only undoubtedly neutral user participating in the page, Ravenswing , concluded that the proper translation for English native is "centrist". I did not agree neither as I preferred "syncretic" but since Ravenswing is neutral, I apply his proposal as a proper consensus. I do not understand why your opinion should prevail on previous discussions and consensus reached on the talk page. Is it because you are admin on the French wikipedia or related to many of them and used to impose your POV without prior discussions? I hope not, and thus, please discuss on the talk before imposing your opinion. D0kkaebi (talk) 07:29, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    (edit conflict) My edit summary you quote just above was clear, and your assertion is false that on the talk page in the link you mention @Ravenswing: would have said that "centrist" is a good English word for what the micro-party calls "neither left nor right / above left and right" (that is, focusing on anti-europeanism and not on left-right divisions).
    And you should certainly not be the one demanding that any modification from other users should first get your approval on the talk page, given your known POV as a local leader of this party (btw, I just had a look at WP:DISCLOSEPAY and it is not clear to me if this counts or not as an "affiliation" that has to be disclosed). Oliv0 (talk) 08:20, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    So you say Ravenswing did not say "centrist" is the proper word to describe UPR's political positioning? It does not look like you even checked the link. Rather than interpretation, I'll just quote his words "We need pay no attention to what a Frenchman would call "centrist" -- what matters is what your average English-speaker would think of as "centrist".". This is the best evidence that you just impose your POV without even checking prior discussions and even ignoring others' input. I did not agree with him, but I agree on the logic he brought for the sake of the consensus. So who is not neutral here? D0kkaebi (talk) 22:46, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Here you are being non neutral, @Ravenswing: only said that the English word is not to be avoided because of the French meaning, which does not say it is the appropriate word in English. In fact, "centrist" and "gaullism" mentioned in my edit summary quoted above and probably even "syncretic" are all a POV attempt at a more positive vocabulary than the sources. Oliv0 (talk) 06:46, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Ok, so let's summary. The sources says "neither right nor left", so I write this in the article but that's a POV. Another user suggests that syncretic would be more understandable for English Native but that's a POV. Then Ravenswing write instead "centrism" in the article, then it is debated on the talk page, but that's also a POV. In brief, everything not inputted by yourself is a POV. Do we understand correctly the logic of Oliv0pedia? D0kkaebi (talk) 23:30, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Stick to the independent sources, that is not POV. So far you did not mention Ravenswing wrote "centrism" in the article, the talk page is more important and does not conclude "centrism".
    Also please stop saying everybody else has a POV, wants to impose the French WP on the English WP and wants to control the article that they think their WP:OWN, since everybody now saw your POV and COI as a local official of the party who wants to control the article that you think your WP:OWN. Oliv0 (talk) 05:28, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    No personal attacks, and nothing which is not public here ; User:Lawren00 is a redirection to User:D0kkaebi, Lawren00 having public Twitter account with his name ([80]), and this guy telling everything about him and his relations with the UPR on Facebook public page ([81]). Btw, as he is in the board team of the UPR and is quite heavily implicated in the redaction & maintenance of François Asselineau and Popular Republican Union (2007) (with strong Wikipedia:Conflict of interest), doing edit wars with many users on both articles, he should provide the information on his user page by the WMF rules (at least if he receives financial compensations for his activities). Schlum (talk) 07:51, 9 September 2015 (UTC) PS : my contributions list on en WP show that I’m far from being the WP:SPA User:D0kkaebi is on the PRU & F. Asselineau subject… Schlum (talk) 11:34, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    (edit conflict)
    Come on now, D0kkaebi! Is it a "personal attack" or a "personal threat" to suggest that you disclose your relationship with François Asslineau and his Popular Republican Union, as it is central to understanding the reason behind your ongoing claim that most of the other contributors are "not neutral"?
    On the other hand, you are now accusing me of being "a single-purpose account on the English WP"... Well, this is definitely not the case, even though I spent an undue amount of time recently on this matter.
    Moreover, you are deliberately misquoting me as having said that we were trying to "gain control of the page"(please provide the exact wording), whereas practically all of your own contributions revolve around François Asselineau. Who's an SPA now?
    Beyond that, I am a bit tired to see that everytime a thread on a talk page develops into a consensus against your opinion, you resort to administrators: as far as I am concerned, I can assure you that I have plenty of other interests beyond François Asselineau, and would be glad to leave the matter, were it not for the sustained edit-war raging around "his" articles (edit-war in which I have no part, as evidenced by my recent contributions to these articles, which have been extremely limited, or even non existent). --Azurfrog (talk) 08:16, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    All right, here is another thing. You have no interest for Asselineau topic, and you would like to move on. I guess that is the same motive that pushed you to go on the Lombard Wikipedia, not even respecting the users there since you do not speak "lombard" by requesting in English to suppress the page of Asselineau. Same thing on the Esperanto page or on the old English page. Do I need to list more to show your non-interest for the topic?
    Now, when you and your crew have [nominated for the 4th time (!?!) the suppression of the Asselineau article], would you like me to remind the words of undoubtedly neutral English native users?
    # SilverserenC: "oppose French Wikipedia control AGAIN? Are you serious? The previous two AfDs ended in Keep and now people from French Wikipedia are, yet again, trying to control English Wikipedia." or "This is just French Wikipedia editors and administrators' trying to control content on other Wikipedias for subjects that they dislike and these actions are appalling."
    # S Marshall T/C: "Keep per my detailed reasoning at the many previous AfDs and DRVs at which French users tried to get this article deleted on various spurious grounds. Also, while I'm doing the thing where you summarise your opinion using words in bold, I need to add surely not this AGAIN and this is not fr.wiki."
    # Carrite (talk): "This entire nomination seems to me a POV-driven exercise and is highly disruptive."
    In addition, note that that your WP:OWN and POV have discouraged the only undoubtedly neutral English contributors to the article, Ravenswing , quoting his word when invited to share his opinion here " given that this kind of nonsense is going to go on barring a big change, I don't have the mental energy to spare to play permanent watchdog for them."
    And the cherry on the cake for the conclusion, here is the evidence that one member of your crew gathered people on the admin noticeboard to rule Wiki:en. Quoting the words of your friend LPLT: "Un courageux pour aller porter le fer sur cette wiki ? / Is there any courageous person to start a war on en:wiki?" I guess, that close the case regarding your neutrality. D0kkaebi (talk) 00:47, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Aller porter le fer (lit. "go and carry the iron [sword]") is not "start a war" but "go to fight", here in the interest of neutrality against your well-known POV, a noble task for an admin but which unfortunately needs much "mental energy to spare to play permanent watchdog" indeed. Oliv0 (talk) 07:50, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Of course, aller porter le fer does mean wage a war (and your explanation shows it perfectly clearly, by the way). You are wasting your/everybody's time here. The only issue discussed in this thread is: Did the users in question threaten to out D0kkaebi (on this Wikipedia)? The answer is obvious. It's a blatant yes. (Some of you even had the nerve to do it again in this very thread!).--Wr. Sr. (t) 09:17, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    (edit conflict) "Wage" (Oxford compact: "Carry on (a war or campaign)"), not "start".
    I certainly did not threaten to "out", only warned about a user's WP:COI and "affiliation" (WP:DISCLOSEPAY: "Terms of Use prohibit (...) misrepresentation of affiliation", "Affiliation refers to other connections that might be relevant" which is not very clear, I am not sure it applies to the local leader of a party if he is not paid). Oliv0 (talk) 10:22, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, it's amazing to realize that I am now accused of being a single purpose by someone who has devoted a substantial part of his time on WP(en) to contribute to the articles François Asselineau and/or UPR. Just to get facts clear I am on WP(en) since November 2006 where I have 1144 contributions on 484 different pages. I don't think this is a shows the behavior of a single purpose account.
    He is now telling that I would have threatened him but is unable to provide any evidence for this allegation. Unfortunately this is a recurring behavior with this contributor. Once he cannot enforce his POV in the articles he tries by any other mean to get his contradictors out of his way. During the last months/weeks he has started
    I might have forgotten or not noticed other procedures started by this user but for those who got the misfortune to cross him on the French WP it is very obvious that he is using the same kind of tricks he used end of 2011 early 2012 where he was making much noise in order to try to impose his POV about Asselineau (this must be a mere coincidence). I have the feeling that the only purpose of this new procedure is to avoid to answer to the question we have raised, i.e. his blatant conflict of interest on the pages François Asselineau and Popular_Republican_Union_(2007). --Lebob (talk) 10:17, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    In addition to my previous message I also noticed that when writing "Lebob (talk) saying my I get approval from UPR party to participate in Wikipedia", D0kkaebi is misquoting what I have really written, which is also not acceptable. I have in fact written that D0kkaebi has a POV that makes him disagree with any comment about the PRU or Asselineau that would not have been duly approved by the RPU of fall within the official position of the PRU, which means that he fully endorses the view of the party where he has official responsibilities and tries to impose them on the articles relating to the party and his chairman. Again there is no wonder here as he has a strong conflict of interest and should refrain himself from contributing to the articles François Asselineau and PRU. I have however never written, as he wrongly (as I assume good faith here I will not write "falsely") alleges that he got approval from UPR to participate in WP. --Lebob (talk) 10:55, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Says a freshly created WP:SPA obviously from UPR as well… I guess it is with good reason that UPR activists are well known in France for their entryism strategies. Schlum (talk) 13:28, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Ok, reading your last comments, looks like your barrel is empty. Lebob, it is true that you did not threat of outing me like the 2 others, you did personal attacks. If you have missed the evidence that I brought, you just need to scroll-up to the beginning of this topic. Then you try to qualify me as a harasser of Francis le Francais. Well, you might have missed those I guess:

    1. [edit war on page with some IPs], I invite them to discuss but my request is ignored that leaded to [page protection by admin against IP contributors].
    2. [After forcing them to explain their motive on the talk page, except first topic, all discussions are to explain to the other party the reasons the changes are not proper]. Sometimes, their request were justified and I integrated the change in the article.
    3. [Discussions went on my talk page from this topic and all following]
    4. Due to their persistence, I filled a request for 3rd party opinion. But it was declined.
    5. [At the same time, I had a strong doubt on socketpuppet usage], since several IPs and Francis le Francais had same complains, and same style of contribution half in French, half in Frenglish which was concluded with an advice on behavioral monitoring
    6. [RFC opened] but the other party refuse the comments brought by experienced user "focusandlearn"
    7. [RFM, but refused] due to lack of French understanding of the board
    8. [DRN opened but refused] because the proper place to solve the issue should be admin board according to Jaaron95

    Then all my warnings to Francis le Francais:

    1. D0kkaebi (discussion | contributions) (You need to read accurately the sources and not interpret as you want WP:POV. You need to respect the consensus before changing things as you feel like)
    2. D0kkaebi (discussion | contributions) (Change upon RFC result, thank you to respect consensus)
    3. D0kkaebi (discussion | contributions) (If no consensus then it should return to the state before the claim happens and until decision is taken)
    4. D0kkaebi (discussion | contributions) (Since there is dispute, until resolution is done, basic principle is to stick to version before the claims. Edit war is useless and time consuming)
    5. D0kkaebi (discussion | contributions) (You have been warned by another user, Aya, one more, on your non-collaborative behavior)
    6. D0kkaebi (discussion | contributions) (Undid revision 678312643 by Francis Le français (talk) last warning)
    7. D0kkaebi (discussion | contributions) (Reporting to Edit war page and admin noticeboard)
    8. Still he reverted again after Francis Le français (discussion | contributions) (Undid revision 679332880 by D0kkaebi (talk) war edit by you)

    And then you are again accusing me to get approval of UPR for any changes I provide to the article. Do you have any evidence for that? None, right, that's a personal attack. I have here just some example of revert I made against "suspected UPR militants" who try to update the number of membership:

    1. (UPR website can't be a reliable source)
    2. (Please use independent sources)
    3. (Please provide valid source)
    4. (Unknown personae and unsourced information)
    5. (Please find a reliable source for this info)
    6. {Please find a reliable source for this info)
    7. (Removed the facebook source (!?))
    8. (Reverted source not independent of subject not allowed) and more ...

    I guess everything is now on the table, admins can judge the outing threat and personal attacks. D0kkaebi (talk) 00:12, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    And still no comment about your blatant conflict of interest, dear? As a matter of fact raising the CoI question is not a personal attack as you wrongly allege. Beside, you are repeating the false accusation that I would be you "to get approval of UPR for any changes I provide to the article", which is not what I have said. The first time I could think this was a reading mistake, this time it is clear that you dishonestly put under my keyboard things I did not write. I have said that what you do on the concerned articles is to make sure that their content matches which the official position of the PRU and that critical comment about the party or its chairman are not quoted in the corresponding articles. Finally I have never written that you were harassing Francis Le français, you came to that conclusion alone. I wonder why... --Lebob (talk) 06:09, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    D0kkaebi why do not you express yourself on a conflict of interest? Why you write the wrong things (eg ip opened subjects talk page which you do not answer or very late - historic demonstrate that - % 29 # 2970 _-_ 5000 _-_ 7000 opened February 1, 2015 by an IP, you answer that on May 29, four months after !)? Why you mix editorial disagreements with this procedure ? Why not say that some informations (aka your old username or mail of the upr's officials) are public and accessible to all on the internet ?--Francis Le français (talk) 08:32, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment from an uninvolved user:

    I've been reading up on this saga; it's quite a tale, years in the making, with some fascinating subplots: an article subject who partially derives Wikipedia notability from making a stink about not being notable enough for Wikipedia; a spamming campaign met with an equally rabid "cross-wiki anti-spam spamming" campaign (a lovely expression I borrowed from the German AFD); frwiki AFD's that include pie charts and trend-line graphs of !votes; small armies of the same cast of canvassed and/or coi editors throwing bombs at each other through Google Translate and various degrees of linguistic ability on a number of wikis; endless charges and counter-charges; 4 AFDs, a DRV, RFC, ANI, COIN and who knows what else in enwiki alone... the only thing missing for me is an AFD in Catalan, that really would have made my day (although it was speedy-deleted twice from cawiki so I'm not too disappointed, gotta show cawiki a little love...). It would take weeks if not months to unravel it all. In the interest of sparing us a massive migraine, I suggest everyone drop the stick and go back to their home wikis where they can safely attack each other in the relative comfort of their native language. (Not that I think there is any realistic chance of that happening, heck it's only been going on for five years, and the article still exists in Occitan, quick send it to AFD!). Vrac (talk) 05:39, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Rather a good summary of this ridiculous and overlong saga ;-). "Dropping the stick" would be the reasonable way out, starting with closing the current request, which was rather a big stick to raise, unlikely to bring Wikipedian love to the subject. But this wouldn't solve the main practical issue, namely the acute conflict of interest at the basis of the recurring edit wars on the two English articles. --Azurfrog (talk) 12:02, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Dropping the stick(s) would necessarily require the participation of both parties in order to be successful as both are exporting disruption across the Wikiverse. Threatening to out someone is a big stick as well. I find it unlikely that getting one user blocked or restricted for COI will solve the problem given the number of pawns in this game. I don't see you or your companions acknowledging the dodgy aspects of your own behavior, behavior which strikes me as decidedly unhealthy. Another brilliant term from the German AFD is "Wiki Jagdfieber" (what we might call a WP:WITCHHUNT). My suggestion was that you all find a way to come to an understanding at home, in a place where you can best comprehend each other, rather than trying to make enwiki or some other wiki decide it for you, or continuing the dispute endlessly to the detriment of the Wikiverse. Of course that would require a healthy dose of WP:COOL. Vrac (talk) 20:37, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Edit-warring, forum like commentary, and threats

    ‎Karak1lc1k has been edit-warring for quite some time over a 'disputed' tag at Sabancı Central Mosque ([82][83][84]). The user does not like the fact that the mosque sits on top of a confiscated Armenian cemetery, and he questioned the sources for the claim. Other users at the talk page did not find the sources problematic and suggested he make a request at WP:RSN. However, his persistent edit-warring, and battleground conduct, make it impossible to work with the user.

    More importantly, the user has been making forum-like rant consisting of more than 10,000 characters at the Armenian Genocide talk page. In his comment, he said: "So shut up please. You can't say something you have no serious information about it. Shut up and freak off. Ignorant peasant sheeps. You are fooling by your freaking "lords" you are their freaking slaves freaking morons." Upon reverting this forum-like entry, the user threatens me on my talk page, calling me a vandal and other sort of threats, then reverts me and other users repeatedly. Étienne Dolet (talk) 01:01, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I didn't threat anybody, that's easy to see here the same page you cited: [[85]] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Karak1lc1k (talk • contribs) 01:13, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • If I were you I'd write up Adana Armenian Cemetery. Drmies (talk) 01:11, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • But first things first, Étienne Dolet. I do not see why that editor doesn't have the right to pop that tag on that page--that they go to RSN would be a good idea but is no formal requirement. In other words, you're edit warring too, and you're wrong, in my opinion. Also, you suggest that there's a wealth of commentary on the talk page, with some history, but there isn't: it's you and Winner 42. That doesn't mean the editor isn't right, but it means that you do not have very solid ground for claiming disruption. I'm about to go look at the other edits, but it is important to establish that your sketch of affairs is...well, a sketch. Drmies (talk) 01:15, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Drmies LOL. Adana Armenian Cemetery...checked. As for the disruption over the tag, it's a 'disputed' tag over RS reasoning which makes it entirely dubious. His reasoning for as to why these sources do not constitute RS is troubling as well (i.e. "you know Turkish sources does not accept such statement" or the "I am from Adana, and I know the area, there was no cemetery there"). This kind of reasoning, coupled with the fact that he doesn't want to listen to the whole WP:RSN suggestion by two users, makes me think the disputed tag is there for no other reason other than the presumption that he simply does not like whats found in the article. Étienne Dolet (talk) 01:26, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I would have to say my interaction with user:Karak1lc1k has been less than amicable; after issuing a warning for edit warring, Karak1lc1k changes my section warning to, "A pathetic Anti-Turkist's pathetic Anti-Turkism struggle".
    Any dialogue with Karak1lc1k is filled with racist accusations/childish personal attacks~("Shh. Are you a patrol user? No. So take care of only your business. Don't distort the history. Mr. anti-Turkist "omniscient"(!) (hell yeah omniscient).", "Learn it first, or I mean, live it first, or at least try to learn Turkish, at least boy, at least, before pretending "adulthood" (aka patronizing).", "You are only a system historian, I am the realistic historian. You are a small, little boy..."). It is quite clear that Karak1lc1k suffers from battleground mentality and is not here to build an encyclopedia. --Kansas Bear (talk) 01:28, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Oh, I can see that. But it can't be based on a little bit of edit warring over a tag and an iffy talk page consensus, and a threat that's really no threat at all. If y'all step back, think this over for a bit, and compile a list with diffs that add up to an argument, that would be a much more exciting and potentially fruitful ANI thread. Drmies (talk) 01:39, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • [ec with ED] OK. That rant, that was ridiculous, and it was righteously reverted by Dr.K. and Athenean. Don't do that again, Karak1lc1k: that sort of stuff can get you blocked (Wikipedia is not a forum), and the partisan rant part means others editors are less likely to take you seriously. As for the supposed threat--well, meh. That's not much. Drmies (talk) 01:33, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    My only, single thing to say after all; you Europeans never respect any Turkish sources on even Turkish-related articles, what if it was only a propaganda log? For example, we can't say "there is a genocide" by looking a pdf source saying "there is a genocide", even if it's a "respected" newspaper or a comission etc., we can't know the comission's words biased or not biased, you can not force Turks to recognize it with that way. Turkey offered several times for a mutual documentary comission establishment, with academicians, but for example how ridicilus is that the EU comission recognized it with no clarification of the subject. You can not force it with Wikipedia-tic sources. I really don't understand... You Europeans IMO, always taking European or Indo-Perso-European sources about especially historical controversial things... Maybe I raged but it's because of I saw sooo many biased lies about Turks in Wikipedia, I see a dirty propaganda continuing upon us, Europe still sees us as an enemy, that's so funny really, if you take Turks to enemy position, you will be win the Turks' hostility, I don't talk only with my words now, whole Turks, not only nationalists, whole Turks think like that. I mean whole Turkic peoples with saying whole Turks not only Turkey Turks. I already said I didn't threat anybody, but if you see it like that, IDC and it's really funny for me. So you can see this message like that: "He threats us with the hostility of all Turks", see as whatever you want, the brain is yours, and yes I accept that, maybe I didn't have enough information about the Wikipedia rules, but as I said, I was outraged. You'll see, the Armenian lie propaganda will rot. Even the Turkish Armenians (likke Etyen Mahçupyan and so many others) are aware of it. Everybody can add "sources", but "sources" what they desire. Why you don't say them "racist" etc (not for only so-called Armenian genocide)? For example you easily can say yes there is an Indo-European language family, same goes for Ural-Altaic language family, but you really reluctant to trust Turkish sources, now I am asking, are you most of European editors, are you racists? I think yes, you are bunch of anti-Turkist racists... Anyway, I suggest you to research it more deeply, with the sources of two sides, you are biased that's my all criticisms's reason (Yes you can get my words like "threat" here also, I just suggest, but you see it like "threat", this shows everything about the issue). Thanks. Thanks for everything. KARA (talk) 02:15, 9 September 2015
    That is one long single thing. I'm going to block you for edit warring/forum violations on Talk:Armenian Genocide, since you seem to be unable to stop, and then I'll see if NOTHERE doesn't apply. Drmies (talk) 03:13, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Karak1's single biggest edit is this unverified chunk. His other contributions are very much limited to talk page conversation and useless flagging like this. POV edits include this tag bombing session. Drmies (talk) 03:22, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Since the time/date stamp gets a little mixed up toward the end of the night due to different time zones...did Karak1lc1k repost this before or after s/he was blocked? (If the latter, a longer block might be in order.) Erpert blah, blah, blah... 04:24, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Dispute between BalCoder and Ontario Teacher BFA BEd, re: article Proportional representation

    A new user, Ontario Teacher BFA BEd, is being disruptive on the Proportional representation page, pushing an anti-PR view while ignoring sources. His (I assume he) first edits (16-17 Aug) referred to PR as an electoral system, a beginner error (see first sentence of the article), and that these had no districts (or ridings as he prefers) - all voting systems have districts (if sometimes only one). So I reverted it (on Aug 18) with just a comment assuming it to be frivolous. The changes were re-introduced on 18-19 Aug (partly anonymously) so in seven entries on the article's Talk page (on Aug 20, Aug 23, Aug 24, Aug 25, Aug 26, Aug 27, Aug 28) I tried to explain his errors, some of which are fantastical, reverting his changes four further times (Aug 20, Aug 23, Aug 24, Aug 25). This grudgingly produced some mostly minor corrections but important errors have not been reversed. On Aug 26, wearying, and in the hope of encouraging cooperation, I didn't revert, and instead required him to revert his changes and then integrate them into the article. This was not successful, the serious errors have not been reverted (for example section "Wider benefits to society" remains deleted without a word, closed and open list systems still have no districts, and that remains unsourced). An important sentence in the lead, that MMP "is usually considered a distinct PR method" has been replaced by "is considered a mixed system, which is a distinct voting system", a wrong, pointless statement which misrepresents the sources. This unnecessary and confusing use of "mixed systems" has caused confusion in the past (last autumn, see e.g. Talk Archive 3 - search for tier), and for this reason the term was replaced by me on Dec 11 by "two tier systems", sourced, and entirely uncontroversial. This has now affected the structure of the article (Sep 1), a renamed section "Mixed Electoral Systems" (capitalized) is no longer part of "PR electoral systems" - misleading and confusing - and "List of countries using proportional representation" is now unhelpfully "List of countries using proportional representation or mixed systems". On the Talk page his tone and arguments are not indicative of good faith, throwing my arguments back at me. For example, that I should respect WP:VERIFY, or, when I attempted to invoke WP:BRD, warning me against re-inserting "the same flawed text" and that I should post to the talk page before making any further changes. But I'm not making any changes, I'm only reverting him. When I pointed out that MOS deprecates small sub-sections he replied that they help readers. He changed the Talk section name to read that it is he reverting me, which of course he isn't.

    I don't have the time or energy to continue composing reasoned criticisms of his changes, and no one else is keeping an active watch on the page, so I would like the user blocked from the page. Then I can revert a final time and add some words to the "Link between constituent and representative" section to emphasize that this is an FPTP (first past the post) advantage, his original concern.

    (Full disclosure: I have rewritten most of this article (down to "History"), basically in two chunks on Aug 2 2014 and Dec 11 2014), and have since been trying to preserve the article from the usual decay, from which it has suffered much in its past. Only the section "Party list PR", which User:Ontario has changed, not for the better, remained from before Aug 2014, not because it was good but because I haven't found the energy/enthusiasm to research and re-write it; neither, of course, has any one else). --BalCoder (talk) 07:56, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I suggest you trim it down more - it is rife with "original research", parenthetical observation, and in a few cases actual misstatements. It does not cover "vote weight proportional to the number of voters" (found in some labour unions), seats reserved for specific groups, and a large number of other systems competing with the traditional "first past the post" system so widely found. Take out all the editorial opinion and work with what remains, and be open to understanding that there are many different flavors of "proportional representation" indeed. Collect (talk) 17:58, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Collect: Once User Ontario's "original research" and misstatements have been dealt with, if you add a few words to the talk page identifying the other instances, and providing sources demonstrating the relevance to PR of your other points, I'll be happy to make the changes. --BalCoder (talk) 07:59, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]


    BalCoder has acted contrary to WP's Wikipedia:Civility policy. Firstly, it states in bold red letters at the top of this page "When you start a discussion about an editor, you must notify them on their user talk page". This was not done by BalCoder. I was notified instead by User:EdJohnston. Secondly, while I attempted to have a civilized discussion with the user about a topic, BalCoder continued to engage in personal insults, intentional rudeness, and belittling behaviour. Specifically, BalCoder has used uncivil tone/language such as "like it or not", "many of your edits are careless", "this is hair raisingly wrong", "most [of your changes] are wrong, confused or confusing, or contain wild claims", and "You finally seem to be getting a grasp on what PR is". I informed the user of the rudeness. However, no apology was given, and no uncivil comments were stricken out. Thirdly, the major point of contention is Balcoder's opinion that mixed (voting) systems do not exist. I have provided a plethora of sources that explain the voting system categories are: PR systems, mixed systems, and plurality systems. [20][21][22][23]: 22 [24][25] In fact, these categories already existed in the WP article prior to my edits. Additionally, most of the sources that I used to substantiate this fact were also already present in the article, which already identified these different types of voting systems. I simply ensured that, for clarity, the same terms were consistently used throughout the article. Even in the above complaint, BalCoder has admitted to previously altering the original text "mixed system" to "two-tier system" several months prior to my contributions. This was only done in one section of the article, causing unnecessary confusion for readers. Yet BalCoder egregiously characterizes the existence of mixed systems are my unsourced opinion. In truth, not only has the existence of mixed systems been thoroughly sourced, it has been sourced by many other editors prior to my contributions to the WP article!

    Lastly, BalCoder has made several objectively incorrect assertions such as "Ontario has recently chosen MMP; that will not have been because it is not a PR system but because it is" in order promote an anti-plurality voting system agenda. To be clear, Ontario uses FPTP, has never used MMP, and voted against MMP in a referendum in 2007. When I pointed this out to BalCoder, no acknowledgement of being wrong was ever made. I encouraged BalCoder to conduct research to substantiate the assertions he/she made, and post sourced contributions. Unfortunately, BalCoder did not post any sourced research to our discussion. Instead, I had to wade through a combination of sentence fragments, personal insults, and unsourced and often specious personal opinions in order to attempt, in good faith, to conduct a civilized discussion. As thanks for my abundant patience, this user has filed a complaint about me without having the common courtesy (as required) to inform me! I request BalCoder to be blocked from the Proportional Representation article to prevent further vandalism, and for his/her account to be suspended due to incivility, personal attacks, and harassment. Ontario Teacher BFA BEd (talk) 00:34, 6 September 2015 (UTC) [reply]

    References

    1. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Democracy_%26_Nature&diff=677453992&oldid=677323512
    2. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Democracy_%26_Nature&diff=677454112&oldid=677453992
    3. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Democracy_%26_Nature&diff=677454220&oldid=677454112
    4. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Democracy_%26_Nature&diff=677454379&oldid=677454220
    5. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Democracy_%26_Nature&diff=677489213&oldid=677456217
    6. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Democracy_%26_Nature&diff=678449071&oldid=678231531
    7. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Democracy_%26_Nature&diff=678495934&oldid=678491784
    8. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Democracy_%26_Nature&diff=678496972&oldid=678495934
    9. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Democracy_%26_Nature&diff=680197617&oldid=680158358
    10. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Democracy_%26_Nature&diff=680050086&oldid=678770864
    11. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Democracy_%26_Nature&diff=680084321&oldid=680079951
    12. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Democracy_%26_Nature&diff=678491784&oldid=678485497
    13. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Democracy_%26_Nature&diff=678231531&oldid=678110401
    14. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Democracy_%26_Nature&diff=678770864&oldid=678496972
    15. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Democracy_%26_Nature&diff=680055716&oldid=680051076
    16. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Democracy_%26_Nature&diff=680060052&oldid=680056313
    17. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Democracy_%26_Nature&diff=680079951&oldid=680062476
    18. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Democracy_%26_Nature&diff=677772255&oldid=677616691
    19. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Democracy_%26_Nature&diff=677575391&oldid=677575107
    20. ^ "Voting Systems Made Simple". Electoral Reform Society.
    21. ^ "Electoral Systems". Administration and Cost of Elections (ACE) Project. Retrieved 31 Aug 2015.
    22. ^ O’Neal, Brian. "Electoral Systems". Parliament of Canada. Retrieved 31 Aug 2015.
    23. ^ "Voting Counts: Electoral Reform for Canada" (PDF). Law Commission of Canada. 2004. p. 22.
    24. ^ Forder, James (2011). The case against voting reform. Oxford: Oneworld Publications. ISBN 978-1-85168-825-8.
    25. ^ "Electoral Systems and the Delimitation of Constituencies". International Foundation for Electoral Systems. 2 Jul 2009.

    Recovered from archive, not yet any comment by an administrator. --BalCoder (talk) 07:42, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Joseph A. Spadaro

    I just blocked Joseph A. Spadaro (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for WP:NPA per this edit, as part of looking into a WP:BLPN discussion in which it became apparent that he was trolling with a BLP violation. Looking at his history, he has form. I wonder if a longer block or perhaps an editing restriction might be in order? Guy (Help!) 13:33, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    What editing restriction do you think would be appropriate? He was clearly trolling the ref desk (a popular target for trolls, SPI anyone?) so maybe a ban from the ref desk for six months? Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:12, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Given the user's overall contributions, the block length seems about right for the trolling, misrepresentation, and personal attacks. What I see at the reference desk is a lot of forum talk and some trolling. I think an indefinite ban from the reference desk might be a good idea, but would defer to the folks who actually spend time there. - MrX 15:42, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Of all the contributors to the RefDesks, Joseph is the least likely troll possible. The diff Guy used to justify the block was simply an angry response to some very stupid comments that appear to me to have been designed to wind him up. DuncanHill (talk) 15:51, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I would also observe that Guy forgot to post a block notice on Joseph's talk page, and also "forgot" to tell him that he was opening a discussion about him here. As it says in bloody great big letters on the edit screen "When you start a discussion about an editor, you must notify them on their user talk page. You may use Information icon There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. to do so." DuncanHill (talk) 15:54, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    If you read Guy's post to JAS' talk page, you will notice that it includes a block notice and a mention of discussing him on admin noticeboards. This is just WP:DTTR. —Kusma (t·c) 16:11, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    One real block in five years? Hardly a "history". Leave it at a week and see what happens once that block expires. Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 18:22, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    But the first one was indefinite for harassment and incivility and at least one was for BLP violations, which would likely have got him blocked this time had it not been for the expletive-ridden outburst getting there first. I see a distinct lack of ability to cope with even quite mild pushback. Guy (Help!) 19:42, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    But the first one was more than seven years ago. And was lifted in 12hrs. I'd like to see more about the first one rather than making a sweeping statement of "well he was blocked indefinitly for harassment and incivility..." Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 19:53, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • JAS posted at least twice on different ref desks regarding the Hillary Clinton email controversy: see user's talk for some links on the current issue, and August 2015 for a computing question. The latter includes the poster's opinion that "A question posted on a help desk does not have a limited scope." A minimum resolution would involve the user agreeing to not use pages on Wikipedia to "discuss" Clinton until the current election cycle is over. Johnuniq (talk) 10:14, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have found that Spadaro often engages in very tedious discussions about the exact nuances of the usage of specific words. But this is the first time I can think of that he's gone ballastic. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:14, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • I went through some of his contributions there, what you are kindly calling 'very tedious discussions' I would call 'no one is that pedantic, its trolling'. I see a lot of time and effort of other people being wasted for no good outcome. Can you think of a plus-point to *not* banning him from the ref desk? (Not rhetorical, I am actually finding it hard to think of one.) Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:52, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Harassment case involving Hijiri88

    Both Hijiri88 and CurtisNaito have been acting in less than stellar fashion lately. Hijiri88 has seen a string of ANI reports about him, of varying quality, demonstrating a pattern of problems. At this stage, blocks would be punitive and aren't supported in policy. An iban would be useless as their individual problems go deeper than just each other. This incident isn't the worst, as far as incidents go, but will serve to draw a line in the sand, and here is that line:

    I think I can speak for the community when I say we are sick of this. All this drama, the bad behavior, the finger pointing, using someone else's behavior to justify bad behavior on your own part, it has to stop. Now.

    Both Hijiri88 and CurtisNaito are admonished by the community for their inexcusable behavior.

    If either editor pushes the boundaries of incivility, bludgeons a discussion, violates WP:IDHT, acts in a disruptive manner on any talk page, or breaching any other policy that makes editing miserable for other editors, then either myself or another admin should simply block for a minimum of 72 hours, with rapidly escalating blocks. It doesn't matter if there is another party that is equally guilty. There is no justice at Wikipedia. We aren't a court, we don't seek legal-esque remedies, only solutions, and sometimes those solutions aren't fair; they are simply effective.

    Please don't confuse this with getting off scot free. Instead you should understand that the threshold before a block just became very low and this is a last opportunity, the last piece of rope before very long blocks are used. We are collectively sick and tired of these drama filled reports. Either you learn to edit in a collaborative and collegiate fashion, or you will be denied the opportunity to edit at all. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 11:39, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    During a recent proposal to topic ban the user Hijiri88, I posted a message noting some of his behavioral problems. I did this despite my concerns that Hijiri would retaliate by stalking me to other articles, which is what he did the previous time I commented about him on the administrators' noticeboard. The previous time I did that, Hijiri followed me to my good article nomination of the article "Iwane Matsui" in order to make false and offensive statements claiming that I don't "know how to properly/critically read even good English-language sources". Hijiri had never shown any interest in commenting on good article reviews up to that point, and naturally good article reviews should not be used as platforms to attack other users. Though Hijiri's concerns were found to have no merit, he stalked me to several other articles I had edited as well.

    Soon after my last comment Hijiri again began stalking me, following me to the article History of Japan, which I had just recently successfully brought to good article status. He posted an offensive comment on the already complete good article review, which was quickly reverted by user Calvin999 as being obvious harassment. User AlbinoFerret concurred that the edits constituted harassment. Since then Hijiri has been posting numerous off-topic personal attacks on me on the talk page of the article History of Japan, such as when he accuses me of "back-handed, self-promoting quest for bragging rights" or when he falsely accuses me of "lying to the GA reviewer". However, I had brought that article to good level status before Hijiri had shown any interest in editing it. When user TH1980 politely asked Hijiri to stop making personal attacks, for that alone Hijiri responded by accusing TH1980 of being a troll. Hijiri also canvassed the exact same users for support who he was criticized by an admin for canvassing just the previous week.

    The admins were recently asked by another user to look into Hijiri's "foul language used within notes accompanying some of the edits" and this issue still needs to be addressed. Hijiri added the date "around 1570" from a map in the article with the edit summary "No intelligent person could think the previous caption was remotely appropriate". He copyedits the article with edits summaries like "English motherbleeper do you speak it".

    Finally, Hijiri has now followed me to the featured article candidacy of the article Iwane Matsui, though Hijiri had shown no interest before in commenting on featured article reviews. He falsely accuses me of page ownership and misquoting sources relating to an article that has nothing to do with Iwane Matsui. Featured article reviews also should not be used as platforms to make off-topic attacks on other users.

    Therefore I am proposing that Hijiri be page banned from the articles Iwane Matsui and History of Japan. Hijiri had never shown any interest in either of these articles before I commented about him on the administrators' noticeboard, and his main interest in them does not appear to extend much beyond making attacks on me. I will note furthermore that this makes the seventh time this year alone that a similar sort of ban has been proposed against Hijiri on the administrators' noticeboard as a result of non-collaborative editing.[90][91][92][93]

    Support as nominator.CurtisNaito (talk) 17:32, 9 September 2015 (UTC) [reply]

    Hijiri88's TLDR, point-by-point response to CurtisNaito's OP

    During a recent proposal to topic ban the user Hijiri88, I posted a message noting some of his behavioral problems. I did this despite my concerns that Hijiri would retaliate by stalking me to other articles, which is what he did the previous time I commented about him on the administrators' noticeboard.
    Blatant admission of violating AGF, if ever there was one. As demonstrated below, CurtisNaito has followed me to a whole lot more articles than I "followed" him to. Additionally, the previous time I "stalked" him was a direct response to his using his many poorly-reviewed GAs as a justification for trying to push other users, including myself, out of the project.[94][95][96]
    Hijiri had never shown any interest in commenting on good article reviews up to that point, and naturally good article reviews should not be used as platforms to attack other users.
    Yes, and until User:Not-a-real-user requested that I be site-banned for not having uploaded as featured pictures as he had, when it was clear to all objective observers that 90% of Not-a-real-user's pictures were copyvios, and the FP process had let them through by accident, I never showed any interest in commenting on FP reviews. But when Not-a-real-user posted his next copyright-violating picture for FP review after the above affront, I pointed out on the review page that the picture probably violated copyright, since copyrighted text was clearly legible in it. Not-a-real-user responded by saying "I don't think the text is copyrighted", and collapsed my comments saying that he had addressed all of my concerns.
    Soon after my last comment Hijiri again began stalking me, following me to the article History of Japan, which I had just recently successfully brought to good article status. He posted an offensive comment on the already complete good article review, which was quickly reverted by user Calvin999 as being obvious harassment.
    No. While the ANI thread was open and I was effectively unable to get involved in anything that might cause problems, you completely overhauled (read: ruined) an article in my area of interest that I had edited years before you joined Wikipedia, and pushed it through the GA process while I was still too busy. When the ANI thread was posted for closure, I decided to be bold and point out the problems with the article and the fact that it should never have passed GA review. Every objective observer on the talk page agreed with me on this point.
    Since then Hijiri has been posting numerous off-topic personal attacks on me on the talk page of the article History of Japan, such as when he accuses me of "back-handed, self-promoting quest for bragging rights" or when he falsely accuses me of "lying to the GA reviewer".
    Neither of these were either off-topic, or personal attacks. The first is a misrepresentation of what I said. I actually accused CurtisNaito of requesting that I be TBANned because I had not nominated a bunch of articles for GA status -- the "back-handed, self-promoting quest for bragging rights" was not something I accused CurtisNaito of doing, but rather something CurtisNaito indicated several times I should be doing, and I was simply pointing out that I am not as interested in it as he clearly is. As for the second: CurtisNaito made frequent accusations that my questioning the article's GA status was pointy harassment, and I pointed out that the article's problems were by-and-large introduced by CurtisNaito and he was now using the GA review as an excuse to edit-war (an indisputable fact). The simple fact is that the GA review was a mummer's farce -- CurtisNaito claiming the article was worthy of being promoted to GA status while hiding the obvious sourcing problems was a lie.
    However, I had brought that article to good level status before Hijiri had shown any interest in editing it.
    No, CurtisNaito made a very, very bad rewrite of the article, and pushed it through GA review without ever bringing up the obvious sourcing problems. Half a dozen other users (only two of whom I debateably "canvassed") agreed with me on this point, and no one disagreed. As far as I can tell, all the GAs CurtisNaito is presently bragging about on his user page suffer the same problems, and they only passed GA because a single user who either was incapable of checking the sources or didn't bother to had failed to do so before unilaterally declaring the article to be a "good" article.
    When user TH1980 politely asked Hijiri to stop making personal attacks, for that alone Hijiri responded by accusing TH1980 of being a troll.
    Why have the majority of TH1980's edits since May been to articles and Wikipedia namespace threads involving me? Why has TH1980 always taken whichever side opposes me in every single case? Why have so many of them been posted on article talk pages, but focused entirely on how bad TH1980 considers my behaviour to be. Has TH1980 even read any of the discussion on that talk page? Nothing he has written there indicates he has. Seriously, give me even a shred of evidence that TH1980's behaviour towards me has been something other than trolling.
    Hijiri also canvassed the exact same users for support who he was criticized by an admin for canvassing just the previous week.
    This is an outright LIE, and I want Curtis to take it back. User:Drmies was referring to an unfortunately-worded posting on the WikiProject Japan talk page, not an invitation to an already-involved user to comment on the same problem he had already been involved in for two years. User:Nishidani has been helping me deal with CurtisNaito's bad sourcing almost as long as User:Phoenix7777, and longer even than User:Sturmgewehr88. All of these users have recognized the same consistent problems with CurtisNaito's edits in the past, so me informing them that the same thing is happening again is only "canvassing" under the broadest possible definition. This has nothing whatsoever to do with what Drmies called me out for in the unrelated recent discussion.
    The admins were recently asked by another user to look into Hijiri's "foul language used within notes accompanying some of the edits" and this issue still needs to be addressed.
    Not going to take the WP:BAIT here. Just let it be known that the "foul language" took place in February, and so no one in the recent ANI thread even mentioned it until now.
    Hijiri added the date "around 1570" from a map in the article with the edit summary "No intelligent person could think the previous caption was remotely appropriate".
    Which part of this is "foul language", exactly?
    He copyedits the article with edits summaries like "English motherbleeper do you speak it".
    I'm guessing CurtisNaito has never seen Pulp Fiction, or at least the famous clip. I was inserting a humorous pop culture reference, with the foul language removed, into a non-controversial grammatical correction. If CurtisNaito was offended by the joke, I apologize, but I hardly think the kind of joke that 99% of Wikipedia editors would find completely inoffensive should be a reason for sanctioning an editor who "should have known better" when he clearly could not have "known better" when ... 99% of Wikipedia editors would find the joke completely inoffensive.
    Finally, Hijiri has now followed me to the featured article candidacy of the article Iwane Matsui, though Hijiri had shown no interest before in commenting on featured article reviews. He falsely accuses me of page ownership and misquoting sources relating to an article that has nothing to do with Iwane Matsui. Featured article reviews also should not be used as platforms to make off-topic attacks on other users.
    My concerns raised at the original GA review, which CurtisNaito somewhat dismissively looked down his nose on before hiding them from view the time, have yet to be addressed. The article still relies almost exclusively on obscure sources written in Japanese by non-specialists with an agenda; the article should not be made a featured article until someone has made some effort to check the sources. Whether I "followed" CurtisNaito to the FA review is irrelevant. And for what it's worth, I actually didn't even follow CurtisNaito to the FA review in question. I have been involved in two completely independent and highly-confusing disputes involving User:Curly Turkey over the past two weeks. In a vain effort to figure out exactly what had happened between the latter user and three other users (User: SMcCandlish, Nishidani and User:Signedzzz) with whom I usually agree and whom I have found very amenable, I looked through the contribs of all these users; I noticed CT's numerous posts on the FA review and edits to the article and, thinking it a rather bizarre coincidence, took a look. I noticed that my concerns raised at the original GA review had yet to be addressed, and so decided to voice my concern. But all of that is beside the point.
    Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:48, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    FWIW, the issue I had with Curly Turkey appears to be water under the bridge; the fact that I raised one in passing a few weeks ago isn't evidentiary of anything to do with the present matter, that I can see.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  17:41, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Support Yes, I think seven warnings are sufficient for sanctions to be applied, and these sanctions are very mild.TH1980 (talk) 19:33, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    This user has already been very disruptive, and continues to act in a way we can't tolerate. That is not limited to a special field, but a general problem. I suggest a last, strong warning to make clear that he has either to change his ways or to go away. The proposed sanctions seem too mild. I propose an additional siteban of 3 months length.--Müdigkeit (talk) 20:30, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    How would a site ban solve anything that a topic ban wouldn't? Sounds WP:PUNITIVE to me. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 21:29, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment The nature of the proposed ban seems to me very strange. I am myself not particularly aware of many similar bans in other cases, from only two articles, as seems to me to be proposed here. Also, if the concern is possible stalking, well, stalking can continue to other articles, and, when real stalking happens, often does continue to other articles. That would make the current proposal one which might have to be revisited again with another article or two added in the near future if the stalking were real and were continued to other articles later. On that basis, independent of whether I believe sanctions are appropriate here, I think that further consideration of what specific sanctions would be best to propose might not be a bad idea. John Carter (talk) 21:39, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, but IBans and Hijiri dont work as evident over the last half year or so. AlbinoFerret 23:45, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Is Hijiri violating an IBan? Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:49, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Not in this case, but there is one with catflap that he constantly is on the boards for breaking. AlbinoFerret 23:53, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Actually, it was usually Hijiri doing the reporting. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 04:26, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Not going to take AlbinoFerret's WP:BAIT either, but if we are going to bring up completely unrelated past noticeboard discussions involving me and IBans, what about this one? The historical record would seem to indicate that, if we are going to assume that history repeats itself in such a predictable way, an IBan between me and CurtisNaito would result in CurtisNaito laying a trap for me, dropping off the site for two months, and then immediately resurfacing when I fall into his trap; I get blocked for 24 hours because a gullible admin believes CurtisNaito's cock-and-bull story, and as soon as my block expires I request the IBan be lifted; CurtisNaito's disruptive behaviour winds up backfiring to the effect that he receives a one-way IBan and a TBan so broad as to effectively ban him from every article either he or I have ever edited. Of course, I'm not saying this will -- or even should -- happen. I'm just pointing out the absurd one-sidedness and historical blindness of AlbinoFerret's (repeated) contributions to these discussions. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:38, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Concur with Curly Turkey. Site bans tend to just make people come back under new names and behave worse, having a bone to pick. A remedy that focuses on steering away from problem behavior while salvaging the account tends to change behavior, albeit usually slowly and a bit at a time.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  17:41, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • This is BS. CurtisNaito has shown repeatedly that he doesn't understand our core content policies. I have looked at some articles he has edited, and noticed the same problems cropping up over and over again. Pointing out constantly recurring problems with the same user is not "harassment", or even a personal attack. But in most cases, he followed me to the article, not the other way around, so claiming that I am "harassing" him is ridiculous. Curly Turkey, User:Nishidani and User:Sturmgewehr88 have been engaged in the exact same kind of "harassment" or CurtisNaito as I have, consistently pointing out that he has been showing the same problems over and over again, so why is he requesting that I alone be driven off the project? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 21:59, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    @Curly Turkey: You do know that, six months down the line, CurtisNaito is going to link to the above and claim, without naming or pinging you, that "another user has pointed out that Hijiri88 engages in 'wars of words'", don't you? </tongue-in-cheek> That's pretty much what 80% of his TLDR OP post in this thread, and the last one, consisted of. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:50, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I sympathize. It can be very difficult to get the community to do anything about SYNTH and other sourcing problems, especially if the editor in question is good at deflection/ducking, misuse of ostensibly reliable sources to seem to say what they don't, and circular IDHT stuff. The skilled ones can use the frequency of your well-reasoned complaints about their behavior to make you seem like you're the one being the problem. I haven't figured out what to do about this myself yet, other than growing a long beard of patience and slowly outsourcing them.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  17:41, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Strong oppose - CurtisNaito is known for his terrible sourcing; half of what he writes is either WP:SYNTH or not supported by his sources, and he sometimes uses unreliable sources to boot. He shows WP:IDHT behavior on talk pages and edit wars on articles while gaming 3RR.
    Hijiri88, on the other hand, has been simply correcting CurtisNaito. Playing the devil's advocate, let's say Hijiri was "stalking" him. He noticed the sourcing issues and checked his contributions for other problems with this user's edits. This is no different than when a vandal (I'm not saying CurtisNaito is a vandal, just using a well-known example) makes a disruptive edit and we check their contributions for more vandalism. There is no policy or guideline that says this is a bad thing. This whole proposal is just an outburst because CurtisNaito doesn't like that someone is actively keeping him from making bad edits, and Hijiri hasn't even been the only editor to call him out for his editing issues. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 22:52, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have to agree—if you find something objectionable in a number of articles attributable to a particular editor, the responsible thing to do is to find out how extensive the problems by tracking down other articles and verifying if there are problems there. That doesn't preclude "stalking", but does not in itself constitute stalking, either. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:02, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I dont think its stalking, its retaliation for posting a comment against Hijiri in the last section he had here. AlbinoFerret 23:51, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Perhaps, but I can testify that disputes between the editors long predate that, and that the issues at the article in question are not trivial. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:56, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The dispute between me and CurtisNaito began when I AFDed an article he had written, with no concern for who had written it (here). About seven months later he reverted my edit to an article and argued extensively on the talk page for inclusion of a large amount of OR and SYNTH (here). Eight months after that, he reverted me again on another article, and argued extensively on the talk page for inclusion of factually inaccurate and SYNTH-based information in the article (here). A further six months later, I AFDed another article that was rampant with SYNTH, OR and generally bad mojo, and CurtisNaito showed up and defended the SYNTH, OR and bad mojo (here). The result of that AFD was inconclusive, but I and a few other users removed most of the SYNTH and OR pending verification; seven months later, CurtisNaito showed up on the article and started reinserting it and creating a massive hubbub on the talk page in order to defend his edits (here). He posted on several noticeboards about this, attempting to drive me out of a discussion he had followed me to (here and here -- which saw input by both AlbinoFerret and John Carter, who were in the minority taking CurtisNaito's side, have both previously hounded me on other ANI threads and talk pages, notably Talk:Kenji Miyazawa). At this point, I finally took it upon myself to look into what other articles CurtisNaito had inserted poorly-sourced OR/SYNTH/bad mojo into; I posted on Talk:Battle of Nanking about a dubious quotation (a triply-translated, Wikipedia editor's original translation of a Japanese translation of a probable Chinese original) and on Talk:Iwane Matsui/GA1 about the article relying almost exclusively on dubious sources that the reviewer admitted he was unable to read. Recently, CurtisNaito completely overhauled History of Japan, an article I had edited years before he registered his account, and which is the main hub-summary article for the area that accounts for likely 99% of all my article edits. His overhaul arguably made the article worse, as he added blatantly non-factual information (the Kaifūsō is an anthology of Chinese poetry, not Japanese, to cite one example) and misrepresented his sources in dozens of places. He pushed his rewrite through GA review, with Calvin999, a user who has never edited any Japanese history articles ever, but does apparently have a friendly relationship with CurtisNaito, passing it without any examination of the sources whatsoever. Every user who has commented on the talk page since has agreed that this was a failure of the GA review process. What's more, CurtisNaito's rewrite also cited an obscure, fringe source written by a non-specialist, which CurtisNaito had read a year earlier during the Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Korean influence on Japanese culture process -- an AFD he had followed me too. Claiming that my removing a source I told him not to cite almost a year earlier is "stalking" is laughable in its anachronism.
    That's seven articles; one that started the dispute when, before I had ever heard of CurtisNaito, I AFDed an article CurtisNaito started and apparently got him angry at me; three more that CurtisNaito followed me to and inserted OR/SYNTH/misquoting of sources/using fringe, unreliable sources, two more articles (after the first four, mind you) where I pointed out that CurtisNaito was doing the same thing (OR/SYNTH/misquoting of sources/using fringe, unreliable sources), and one where CurtisNaito completely ruined an article I had worked on years earlier, and was almost immediately opposed by virtually everyone else who regularly edits the article. Where exactly was the wiki-stalking, again?
    Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:50, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I wouldn't buy the "retaliation" angle, either, even aside from the fact that these two "go back" before that dispute. What often happens is a dispute triggers editors to look into each other's editing, and one detects a pattern that shouldn't be there, and investigates further. It's contribs-stalking, but this is permissible, and it doesn't constitute harassment if it's not motivated by and characterized by ad hominem behavior.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  17:41, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    PS:While ther were some ad hominem comments, there's clearly not a motive in that direction, and Hijiri88 is concerned about the content.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  18:17, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I would simply note that several of the comments linked to are in keeping With Hijiri88's regularly displayed tendency to engage in grossly unacceptable insults of pretty much everyone who ever disagrees with him, which has been regularly demonstrated by him in the links provided to other discussions in the numerous previous discussions regarding him on this page, as well as his similar grossly unacceptable conduct in the discussions themselves. There is a very clear inability on his part to even remotely adhere to basic standards of civility, seemingly with pretty much anyone who ever disagrees with him, and I have to believe that some sort of preventative measure is called for, as he demonstrably does not have the capacity or perhaps interest in adhering to conduct guidelines. Under the circumstances, I would myself probably favour discretionary sanctions on him particularly regarding violations of WP:NPA as the optimal solution here, based on the numerous conduct issues which he has regularly displayed. John Carter (talk) 01:21, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Its the noticeboard version of Groundhogs day. AlbinoFerret 02:14, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    No, it's a side-effect of me regularly interacting with users who bring content disputes to ANI. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:50, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I understand fully, but keep learning the hard way that the AN* crowd will happily hammer you for verbal transgressions no matter what their motivation or rationale, while parties doing unconstructive things to the content will be given free-reign for a long time as long as they play the "civil-PoV" game well. In the immortal words of Admiral Akbar, "It's a trap!"  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  17:41, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment The poor sourcing and, frankly, blatantly counterfactual statements in the article are what drew me to it. If Hijiri88 has indeed checked over CurtisNaito's other editing, then that is commendable, and necessary. Hijiri's only fault has been to attempt to reason with the user at great length when it has long since been apparent that such efforts are wasted. Presented with the clearest evidence, CurtisNaito is never able to admit any fault - perhaps, even, because he is unable to comprehend his errors. In addition to this, he takes every opportunity to insinuate that all of the problems in the article have been introduced by others. This report is just the latest example of his epic disregard for the Law of Holes. zzz (talk) 02:21, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Ah yes, I forgot to add WP:CIR as one of his issues. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 04:26, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment For those that want to make this about content, your on the wrong noticeboard. This isnt a content issue but a behaviour issue, thats what AN/I is for. While the article may have flaws, the timing of Hijiri88's appearance, right after CurtisNaito supported sanctions against him is damning. The incivility also is an issue, civility is required. Its like giving someone who has reverted 6 times a pass because there were flaws in the addition they reverted. AlbinoFerret 02:38, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • the timing of Hijiri88's appearance, right after CurtisNaito supported sanctions against him is damning.: No, the timing coincides with the GA promotion that occurred on 25 August. Hijiri's entire focus is on Japan-related articles, and History of Japan is one of the most prominent articles in WP:JAPAN with 343 pagewatchers. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 03:05, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    @AlbinoFerret: since this noticeboard is about behavoir, why don't we WP:BOOMERANG and WP:TROUT CurtisNaito for opening this report after edit warring with me, Hijiri, and Nishidani? Not to mention the facts that, as pointed out by Signedzzz, he never sees anything wrong with what he's doing, has a continuous difficulty in properly representing sources, and (I'm under the impression) got a buddy to get his overhaul of this article GA status, which should be revoked anyway due to the condition its references are in. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 04:26, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    AlbinoFerret, if you think ANI is for discussion of user behaviour rather than article content, why are you not criticizing CurtisNaito for repeatedly bringing content disputes to ANI? Additionally, your claim of the timing being damning is funny, given that I directly stated that the only reason I can't appeal the article's poor GA review myself is because I am trying to keep a low profile. That's also why I didn't say anything in Drmies' AN thread about me (which I did notice while it was open, even though I received no notification). My attempts to keep a low profile have been met with unceasing personal attacks and threats, and a new ANI thread opened on me over a content dispute. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:50, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Because, once again, you are attempting to try to distract people from the grossly unacceptable conduct with which you regularly pepper virtually every discussion you have been involved with recently? I would welcome the input of @Drmies: and others on this point, but at this point I believe your inability to seemingly ever engage in reasonable conduct with persons with whom you disagree, which is once again rather blatantly demonstrated in your conduct on this thread itself, is probably the more regular problem here. At this point, I would think, maybe, the best proposal would be to place Hijiri under discretionary sanctions particularly including blocks of escalating length for such incivility, and, should such gross incivility take place two or three times regarding the same individual or topic, some sort of topic ban from the page or pages involved, or, if necessary, an i-ban. I would be very interested in seeing what other individuals who have been involved in the recent discussions regarding Hijiri's conduct think of that matter, including @Dennis Brown: and @Beyond My Ken: think of enacting some such proposal. John Carter (talk) 14:29, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Seriously, what "grossly unacceptable conduct"? You bring this up every time I get in a content dispute with another ANI-happy user, but no one has presented any evidence of me violating any rules of conduct here. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:42, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Additionally, pinging Beyond My Ken is a blatant violation of WP:CANVAS. Beyond My Ken recently spear-headed an unsuccessful campaign to get me site-banned, based on a content dispute that (by his own admission) he had not examined in any detail. Why would one assume that he would be interested in examining this content dispute in detail? Everyone involved in the dispute agrees with me; you are just trying to get me off Wikipedia by any means necessary at this point. Numerous users from all ends of the spectrum, from User:Stalwart111 to User:Sturmgewehr88, have requested that you stop this pointless harassment campaign of me; why are you still at it after six months!? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:48, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Firstly, can someone confirm that our purpose here is to write an encyclopedia? I find the comments by AlbinoFerret and John Carter extremely strange. It is totally clear to me that this is really a content dispute, and the incivility arose as a direct result of the long dispute. I am not an expert on the topic, but if one looks at the Talk:History of Japan page, it is clear even to the meanest intelligence (I refer to my own) that there are serious problems with sourcing, WP:OR, WP:SYNTH and general inaccuracy. Hijiri88 has been incivil in certain instances, but these arise due to exasperation at WP:IDHT rather than anything else. I see a lot of well-argued, and often correct points raised by Hijiri88 there. Many other people also raise the same points. Too often, I feel, outside editors ignore the content issue (because they are not experts), and do not put in the time to research a bit, and see what exactly is going on here. It would of course be good for Hijiri88 to tone down their comments, but I find the WP:CIVILity argument bogus here. I also counsel Hijiri88 to read WP:BLUDGEON and not reply to every comment. It just increases chance of WP:TLDR. Kingsindian ♝♚ 14:54, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree with you, Kingsindian. But I think it would be very useful to review the frankly incredible number of recent disputes regarding Hijiri with any number of people in the ANI archives. Hijiri seems completely incapable of recognizing that his often gratuitious insults, along with his sometimes rather obvious paranoia, has caused and continues to cause others to basically lose patience with his conduct. One of the most obvious in this instance is the frankly completely Useless allegation that the complaints of others is a " cock-and-bull story", "Outright LIE" regarding his "unfortunately-worded" obvious thread of retirement on the WikiProject Japan talk page, in an outright violation of Canvassing rules, and others. If and when the other editors I have pinged. This includes two, Drmies and BMK, who have clearly expressed exasperation with the long-term conduct issues Hijiri raises, and another one of whom, Dennis, reviewed the most recent thread regarding this matter thoroughly, although he did not draw a conclusion about it for understandable reasons. I suppose I should add that the sanctions I propose above would probably not necessarily be applied for extremely questionable conduct on noticeboards. But, starting at least to my memory with his collapsing a talk page comment by Catflap08 with an accusation that Catflap08 saying it was made by a "jackass," which he later struck but did not remove and added the word "Idiot," gross incivility has been one of the more predictable characteristics of Hijiri of late. John Carter (talk) 15:11, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Kingsindian After reading the sections before and this one I truly believe WP:TLDR is the goal. Its a variation of WP:CHUNK. AlbinoFerret 15:23, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Kingsindian (re: not replying to every comment) Understood. I actually held my tongue through what turned out to be an extended lunch break at work today in which I could have responded. But the failure (inability, in a few cases) of Curly Turkey, Sturmgewehr88 and a coupla others to address some of the elephants in the room was so frustrating for me that I couldn't hold it any longer. I'll try to keep further comments here to a minimum. But could you please caution John Carter for continuously requesting that I be sanctioned for using the word "idiot", once, over half a year ago? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:36, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Hijiri,I find it extremely difficult to believe any reasonable person would draw the conclusion you obviously draw above, that your use of both "jackass" and "idiot" is the sole reason for me and others having grown thoroughly disgusted with your attempts to whitewash all your numerous mistakes. Thank you for once again indicating that you seem to have extreme difficulty acknowledging how your conduct, including your obvious threat to retire if you didn't get your own way at the WikiProject Japan talk page, your rather strange excuse to get your block lifted by Drmies earlier, and your numerous other exhausting examples of lack of self-awareness. I am sorry that you apparently find it impossible to believe that you can ever be seriously wrong, and your attempt to minimize the examples which I alluded to above to simply saying that you misused the word "idiot" once is yet another example of your seemingly out of control habit of spin control at all costs. I believe there is reasonable cause to belief your "antics" may well have exhausted the patience of many members of the community already. John Carter (talk) 15:47, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • The problem with this report is it is short on actual diffs of Hijiri88 and high on drama links. That is irritating because it causes more work on the part of anyone that is actually interested in facts. Not much has changed since the last dramah-fest with Hijiri88, but I did check a few diffs, read the talk page on Kombucha (which is listed as part of the ban in this discussion), where I didn't really a problem. Editing articles isn't all peaches and cream, folks, sometimes you have to expect to argue a bit. In History of Japan, his argument about Jared Diamond is unquestionably bludgeoning. Start a poll, RFC, go to WP:RS, but at some point, you make your point then walk away. You don't beat everyone over the head with your argument until they pass out from exhaustion. You're no dummy, you already know you were bludgeoning. Your name is listed 71 times on that talk page for cripes sake. So tell me Hijiri88, is 71 normal? I've already learned (as have other admin) that polls don't work. You're smart, have good ideas, but you can be a jerk just a little too often, which is particularly noticeable since you are beating the page to death with your signature. Tell me, what is the solution here? Dennis Brown - 2¢ 15:15, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    @Dennis Brown: If you read the whole talk discussion (I don't blame you for not doing so, mind you) you would see that it is not just about the Diamond issue. The article has numerous, still-unsolved problems. I may have edited the page more than most (partly because I tend to edit my own comments after posting them), but CurtisNaito, Curly Turkey and Nishidani have done the same. If you ask any of the other users who have had to deal with CurtisNaito on this talk page or any other mentioned above, you would see that the problem lies not with me. He just ignores what you say and keeps (a) reverting back to his preferred version of the article while carefully staying within 3RR, (b) repeating the same garden path, non-sequitur arguments, and (c) when it turns out he was indisputably wrong on the substance he just pretends he was not saying what he very clearly was. The talk pages of Emperor Jimmu and Korean influence on Japanese culture both have thousands upon thousands of words in their archives primarily because of me and several other users trying for weeks on end to get through to CurtisNaito -- talk pages like Kombucha, on the other hand, on which I have disagreements with other users, don't tend to stretch out for so long because other users, even if I disagree with them on content, tend to be rational and either willing to admit when they were wrong or capable of demonstrating to me in a coherent manner why I was wrong. Seriously, ask User:Sturmgewehr88, User:Nishidani, User:Curly Turkey, User:Phoenix7777 and User:Ubikwit, almost none of whom I agree with a majority of the time but all of whom can vouch for who is really at fault here. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:30, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I think a major reason why talk page discussions with Hijiri go on so long is that Hijiri only spends 50% of his time or less actually talking about issues relevant to article content and the rest of the time making off-topic criticisms. In the current featured article review for Iwane Matsui, he has written numerous pages of text attacking me as a user and speculating about sources which he admits that he hasn't read and knows nothing about. The only two occasions on which Hijiri showed any interest in commenting on good article reviews or featured article reviews was directly after the two occasions on which I posted about him on the administrators' noticeboard. Therefore, he appears to be using the talk page of these articles to attack me personally rather than suggest valid improvements to article content.CurtisNaito (talk) 15:38, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I did read much of it, but it isn't a matter of wrong or right (WP:BLUDGEON doesn't differentiate). It is about knowing when to back off, knowing how to be pithy. I'm not blind to the acts of others, but one thing at time: The fact is, you are overengaging, are you not? I actually think you often make great arguments, you just don't put the stick down soon enough, and yes, you push the envelope of civility too often. I'm pretty lenient when it comes to singular issues, but you do have a sharp tongue and air it regularly, do you not? I'm trying to get you to see, admit and propose your own solution here, it's a bit of rope really, as the community is getting tired. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 15:51, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Having just been punished, without the issue I raised being resolved even slightly, I would advise Hijiri88 take Dennis Brown's advice. It's a Bad Thing, in my view, that the facts take a backseat to unctuous wording and verbal compression, but they certainly seem to on our beloved noticeboards. You can have all the proof in the world, but if you can't squeeze it into a three-point bullet list, you're apparently a Disruptive Editor. [sigh] That's about all I have to say on that matter, lest I be pilloried further. I agree that in the issue raised here, the complainant has unclean hands, and Hajiri88 appears to be in the right on sourcing, etc. There's nothing "damning" about showing up at GA. 'I wish people would let me do the wrong thing in peace' is not a legitimate harassment complaint. I agree with the gist of the complaints of John Carter et al., about insulting language. Some of it's pretty bad, but not all of this evidence is a "smoking gun".

    The GA review criticism here is indelicate, but seems to be on-point. This one was unnecessarily snippy, but it's addressing editing behavior like citing sources for what they don't really say, and engaging in OR, and relying on obviously biased, questionably reliable sources. So, valid point, but the wording could have been tailored better to focus on the editing pattern and the content it produces instead of alleged abilities of the editor. I agree the "troll" comment here was unjustified; Hijiri was obviously thrashing at that point. If the community thinks a WP:ACDS action would be warranted, make it a short-term one. Hijiri88 just needs to learn to couch criticism of editing patterns in terms that focus on the edits not the editor (which is an art, and one I've apparently not mastered myself yet). But the underlying concerns Hijiri88 is raising look legit to me, at least up to a point (and I'm not a Japan-focused editor; I have no dog in that fight). Far too often, the 'boards and their admins seem to care more about policing language that the encyclopedia being accurate. Don't just DS Hijiri88 and close this, but address the problems that have him so up-in-arms to begin with.

    PS: Hijiri88, please use <br /> (proper, modern HTML), not "<br>" from HTML 3 or whenever that was still valid; the latter breaks the syntax highlighting gadget.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  17:41, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    • I agree that much of what Hijiri88 says has merit, else I would have simply blocked him right off the bat. A block may still be part of the solution, although it isn't my first choice. It isn't enough to be right, you still have to get along around here. I'm a simple man, I'm not into complicated sanctions, just workable solutions. This is why I asked Hijiri88 for a solution above. It wasn't rhetorical, I'm sincerely asking him to forget about everyone else's faults for a moment (and as you point out, no one is perfectly innocent but their actions haven't risen to this level yet), and just look at his own actions, tell me the problem, suggest a solution, and I will take it under consideration. I'm not after a pound of flesh, I'm after a way to make these constant ANI filings go away. Some have more merit than others, but there is some meat on the bone in this one. Something is going to happen and happen soon. I'm offering him the opportunity to have a say, if he can be reasonable. It is purely optional, of course. Otherwise, I'm apt to simply act unilaterally, and I'm confident a consensus would back me after the fact. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 01:33, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Uncivil comments

    A large part of the problem is lack of civility. As we all know civility is required regardless of the situation, page, or content we are discussing. Hijiri88 has made uncivil comments. I propose a simple 48hr block and a warning not to make uncivil comments. Here are the diffs of these comments shown here in the above section and elsewhere.massive fustercluck"back-handed, self-promoting quest for bragging rights."calling another editor a Trollcohorts pulling him through crap"Are you insane?""You should be blocked""don't think I won't notice""Stop following me already, hypocrite!""Why can't you get it through your thick skull""you bloody buffoon" AlbinoFerret 20:19, 10 September 2015 (UTC) Most of the diffs and quotes here predate the section above. This section is not directly tied to the sections above but is about a long term problem. AlbinoFerret 03:46, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Also, "You can count on me seeing to your receiving harsh repercussions for this in the near future", "someone block this jackass", "Catflap's constant disruption will not be missed", "You don't want to go out and do the research on the modern Kokuchukai in order to clean up this article because you're afraid it MIGHT contradict you", "posts like this might come back to bite you in the lower back.", "grow the hell up", "learn to speak frickin' English", "Are you really too stupid to understand my plain English explanations?", "Who are you, and which other accounts have you used?"(unsigned comment by CurtisNaito)
    @AlbinoFerret: As I mentioned above, there is no doubt at all that there have been cases where Hijiri88 was incivil. A fair number of the diffs above are on drama boards and user talk pages, which I discount largely (not totally). On article talk pages, let's take the most "damning" evidence: "you bloody buffoon". Firstly, I hope we can agree that article content is the important thing here. Please look at the page history here, starting from May 3. What happened was that Hijiri88 reverted a bad edit by TH1980, who then proceeded to edit war over it diff, diff, then added another bad edit, again edit warring over it diff. CurtisNaito, then reverts Hijiri88, and proceeds to edit war over it. Then Nishidani, as they always do, comes through with impeccable sources which set the matter straight. TH1980 still tries to add their edit, which Nishidani again corrects with good sources. Now, I find myself totally unable to conclude that the worst behaviour here was the comment "you bloody buffoon", which I don't even understand (is it some pop culture reference?). I find the edit-warring and general worsening of wikipedia content MUCH more disturbing. But this kind of story is missed if one only looks at exasperated comments on talk pages. Kingsindian ♝♚ 21:22, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Keep in mind that Hijiri angrily reverted Nishidani's additions to the article (describing one of Nishidani's sources as "a piece of garbage"). When asked why he did that, Hijiri admitted that he did it because he had mistakenly assumed that I was the one who had added them to the article. It's as issue of assuming bad faith. Hijiri opposed my additions to the article, not because the sourcing was bad, but because I was the one who added them.CurtisNaito (talk) 21:34, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    It would be more than just an issue of assuming bad faith, it would be an issue of both assuming bad faith and apparently refusing to even bother to check if his assumption were accurate. Bad faith taken to such ridiculous, possibly paranoic?, extremes is I think a serious cause for concern, although, if he did apologize for it later, which he seems to have done, it probably shouldn't be considered too significant on its own. That however still leaves questions regarding the angry nature of his comments, which is perhaps another minor point, but being angry at the wrong people for things they didn't do is not exactly something one wants to do too often, if ever. John Carter (talk) 21:42, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Indeed, it was assuming bad faith (or insufficient competence). The "piece of garbage" comment was actually Miller's opinion of another source (Ian Hideo Levy). In any case, I view it as a reaction to the earlier edit warring, not justifiable, but understandable. The repeated edit-warring was a clear violation of essay WP:BRD and (more to the point) policy WP:BURDEN/WP:ONUS, to keep adding disputed (it seems that it was either incorrect or misleading) content when it is challenged. The proper way to proceed is to discuss on the talk page and get consensus, which was not present. Kingsindian ♝♚ 22:02, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Please make comments in the discussion area provided AlbinoFerret 01:03, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Discussion

    (moved from above section as per request on my user talk page) You seem to be overlooking the rather obvious assumption of bad faith which is one of Hijiri88's more obvious characteristics lately, up to and including his clear indication above that your own comment in the thread was an attempt to WP:BAIT him. This assumption of bad faith on his part for, pretty much, everybody who ever disagrees with him, is a major ongoing problem, and I have no reason to believe such a limited sanction would do any good, unless it were made clear that any further attempts at derogation such as the one against you I mentioned earlier will no longer be tolerated. This tendency toward paranoia on his part has been noted before, and perhaps it is beyond the scope of sanctions to be able to address it, but I cannot believe that not addressing it will not bring us back here rather shortly with yet more complaints against him. John Carter (talk) 20:29, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose at least tentatively as premature. I have yet to seen Hijiri88 respond to Dennis Brown's request regarding what Hijiri88 thinks is the best way to proceed here, and, actually, am rather surprised by the delay. Also, as indicated by me in my comment above, I have no reason to think that the sanction proposed will be necessarily sufficient. Lastly, it might make sense to retitle this subsection to "Proposal" or something like that, to make it obvious what the nature of the requested comments is. 20:48, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
    John, the sanction is just a cool down a final warning as he has made at lease one comment lately, and the warning is important. He can either listen to the community and change, or take up the rope. (added final warning later)AlbinoFerret 20:53, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Per WP:COOLDOWN, we don't do "cool down" blocks. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 21:12, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    But it could still be argued as being a sanction and a "final warning" at the same time. Having said that, I would prefer a more explicit final warning than the one which this would at best weakly imply, but I am waiting to see how Hijiri responds to Dennis's comment above first. John Carter (talk) 21:29, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    @NinjaRobotPirate Perhaps not my best choice of words, but I do agree with John Carter above that its also a final warning and and deter the continuation of present, disruptive behavior. This incivility has gone on long enough. AlbinoFerret 01:00, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose the rationale that "A large part of the problem is lack of civility."—there's no consensus on that; and if the block is meant as a warning, then a talk page warning would suffice rather than a permanent blotch on his block log that people can throw in his face years down the line. If there's to be a block then provide evidence that the block would improve the situation. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 21:38, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Thats why we have this section, to see if there is consensus. For he incivility those comments show, a minor 48hr block is a gift. AlbinoFerret 00:53, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    No, it has not been determined that if there's a disruption, the disruption is incivility. Curtis Naito proposed something for "non-collaborative editing" and stalking—any incivility is a side issue. We're here to improve the situation, no to pass out "gifts" of 48hr-blocks—and putting it that way sure makes it seem like the motivation is WP:PUNITIVE. Honestly, going through your comments in this case, it looks like you're bending over backwards to GOTCHA Hijiri. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 01:29, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    No, it isnt punitive, its to deter the continuation of present, disruptive behaviour. There isnt any GOTCHA, but this has been going on to long. Something needs to be done to stop the continuing disruption. AlbinoFerret 02:09, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Meaning "the disruption" is "incivility". No, we don't agree that's the case, but it is the easiest target for the block-happy. The onus is on you to show how building the encyclopædia will be improved with this block—otherwise the block itself is a disruption. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 03:49, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    "The disruption" is purely CurtisNaito misusing sources and edit warring. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 02:59, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    And enablers too willing to block for incidental "incivility". Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 07:00, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have already given my views above. I would suggest to Hijiri88 to read WP:GLUE, which is a good essay about WP:AGF. I know little about Japan, but my main suggestion is to understand that you don't have to convince everyone. If you reach an impasse after 2-3 tries, use RfC or WP:3O (for example) to break it, don't argue forever. It is a bad idea to mix conduct and content issues on the article talk page. Focus on content. Use WP:ANI for conduct, or just forget about it. Kingsindian ♝♚ 22:15, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support I suppose we could try this, unless someone has a better idea.TH1980 (talk) 02:06, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    @TH1980: a better idea would be to give this 48 hour block to CurtisNaito. The best idea would be to find something to keep CurtisNaito from misusing sources and edit warring. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 02:59, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Cebr1979 There is proof you visit this board, with 195 edits according to X's tools, and according to the interaction analyser you dont edit the same articles other than 3 with one off edits days and months apart and no interaction on the talk pages of those articles. Curly Turkey on the other hand edits lots and lots of the same articles and talk pages Hijiri88 does with their edits coming minutes apart. AlbinoFerret 05:14, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Unless you have some sort of evidence that I would conspire with Hijiri I suggest you strike that last comment. That Cebr has a very recent beef with Hijiri is undeniable—on the record—and you'll find scant evidence of my "collaborating" with Hijiri. As it stands, AlbinoFerret, the innuendo in this statement looks like more evidence that you're trying your darndest to GOTCHA somebody. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 05:34, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Oh, worse! Looking at those 195 edits, they're mostly to discussions involving Cebr1979, not evidence that he's an ANI regular who just casually stopped by. Wanna strike the rest of that comment now? Otherwise you look like you're just stirring the pot (or worse: distorting the record). Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 05:42, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    It looks like no such thing. I do frequent this board, regardless of what my edits have been when I've chosen to make some (though that's none of your business and I don't owe you -or anyone else- an explanation as to what pages I visit or when or why).Cebr1979 (talk) 06:23, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    That last sentence only shows your involved. AlbinoFerret 05:59, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Involved in Hijiri's dispute with CurtisNaito? No, it shows no such thing. CurtisNaito and I have played nicely with each other, haven't we? Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 06:13, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    You see that "you"? The "you" was directed at AlbinoFerret. And it's everybody's business when you !vote to block an editor you have a known recent dispute with—especially one who !voted to have you blocked. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 06:40, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    You said above that you looked at my edit history for this page. That means you have seen what my most recent edits here were and when I made them. That means you've already found all the proof you need to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I do frequent this board and that it has nothing to do with Hijiri. You need to stop with your false accusations. Anyone else can look up what you looked up and see the exact same thing.Cebr1979 (talk) 06:49, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Let's see who you can convince. Enough of us have watched what happened. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 07:02, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything (nor do I need to).Cebr1979 (talk) 07:05, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Yep, you're here for the drama. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 07:07, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Not wanting other users to come along and move my comments around does not make me "here for the drama." You moving my comments around, however, does make it seem like you're here to cause drama. I weighed in on something I chose to weigh in on which is something I am entitled to do. You clearly don't like that and you are entitled to your feelings.Cebr1979 (talk) 07:14, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I'll just keep a note of this for the next time you "just happen" to stop by one of these discussions. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 07:21, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    You are certainly free to do so.Cebr1979 (talk) 07:24, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    For the record, AlbinoFerret's own hands are not clean in this matter either. I challenged a highly disruptive edit he made to Talk:Kenji Miyazawa back in April, and since then he has shown up in every noticeboard discussion involving me, always throwing his support behind heavy sanctions against me. Unlike Cebr1979, AlbinoFerret is an ANI regular, but he wasn't at the time this started, and it's not like he posts in every ANI thread -- unless it involves me. And this would explain why he is distorting the historical record here. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:39, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    My posts may not predate every section you have had here, but they predate the close of the RFC you call a "disruptive post" where you ABF and to this day misrepresent what happened. No one comments on every section here to my knowledge. Distorting the historical record? That post is a perfect example of why you are here on AN/I. AlbinoFerret 15:35, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    This !vote should not be considered seriously because of this user's known behavior and past interactions with multiple users. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 02:59, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose If ANI cannot handle a problem, it should not impose simplistic non-solutions. Shooting one side might stop the bickering, but it fails to help the encyclopedia. I think some of the questions raised have been claims that certain editors fast-track GAs in order to boost their GA count, and that serious errors of content due to misunderstanding of sources has occurred, and that the editor concerned never engages in a discussion about those issues, instead deflecting them by talking about something else. I do not know if the claims are correct, but waving them away because people don't have the patience or skill to investigate is not helpful. Johnuniq (talk) 03:27, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    You might want to check the dates on the diffs of the incivility, most of them predate the section above. This is a long term problem and not just the product of a content disagreement. AlbinoFerret 03:41, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The "long-term problem" is not incivility—the incivility is incidental. Remove the incivility and the problem remains, whether Hijiri or Chris Naito happens to be the source. Treating the symptoms with a flamethrower won't fix anything. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 03:54, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Actually a lot of them art to other people, including Beyond My Ken. AlbinoFerret 06:01, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    So you've simply ignored what I said. You're only making it clearer and clearer that you're on a "civility" witchunt and aren't interested in actual solutions to actual problems. More people are realizing this and someday it's going to boomerang on you. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 06:59, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    @Ahiroy: this proposal isn't about sanctions for disruptive editing for both users, this is about sanctions for incivil comments for one user (the one who wasn't making disruptive edits to the article). ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 05:41, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Proposal: Block both Hijiri88 and CurtisNaito for 48 hrs

    Okay, I seem to have misunderstood Kingsindian's advice.

    @Dennis Brown: I think that under normal circumstances, a short block (24 or 48 hours both seem reasonable) would normally be a good solution for my own less-than-civil behaviour. I also sympathize with any impartial observer who came across this ANI thread, saw diffs of me using the word "motherbleeper" in an edit summary and "bloody buffoon" on a talk page and assumed the fault lay with me. However in this case, virtually all outside observers have pointed out that my incivility was a result of severe provocation and goading from CurtisNaito and a couple of his friends. I worry that if I receive a block and CurtisNaito &co are not sanctioned or otherwise warned, the result will be yet more talk page disruption, with CurtisNaito et al actively trying to push others over the profanity line to get another block.

    A solution I would be amenable to would be a short block for me for my recent incivility (diffs from February do not count, as a mutual IBAN was already put in place for those), and CurtisNaito receives a block of equal length for persistent IDHT talk page disruption and attempting to game the system. I agree that my behaviour has been less than stellar and should probably be sanctioned in some way: this solution would do so, without actively incentivizing further disruption on the part of the other party to this dispute.

    Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:09, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    • Oppose - Hijiri, let me be blunt. You seem to persist in trying to basically do everything in your power to, as much as possible, blame other people for your misconduct. That is not sufficient here. Nor is the fact that your actions seem to bring you here on seemingly a weekly basis. I am aware that you are to some extent the target of opposition, and, by your regularly indulging in conduct which is in almost every case worse than that of anyone else involved, you seem to also be determined to make it much easier for them to criticize you. This proposal does nothing so far as I can see to address your regular conduct problems, and, in fact, seems to once again be attempting to deflect as much blame for your own willful actions on others. You are responsible for your actions, not others. If I were to see from you reason to believe that you were actively willing to consider your behavior, and all the problematic elements of your behavior in recent months, I might support this, but, so far as I can see, you seem to be continuing your regular "he started it", rather juvenile, pattern of attempting to blame others for your actions.
    • By saying this, I am not saying anything one way or another about whether you are or should be the only one sanctioned. I am not convinced of that at all. However, I see nothing in the above which really indicates to me that you are really willing to address the degree and regularity of your own conduct problems. And, yes, the fact that you rather arrogantly use the word "accept" above indicates once again, perhaps erroneously, that you somehow seem to hold yourself in a privileged position in terms of policies and guidelines, and violation of same. That seems to me to be the fundamental issue here, and I see nothing from you to date addressing that concern, or, even, really recognizing it.
    • Also, as AlbinoFerret says above, 48 hours probably is less than sufficient for your conduct in an of itself. I might be willing to entertain it if I saw some real indication that you have a clue about the amount and regularity of your own misconduct, but I don't, much to my disappointment. John Carter (talk) 17:09, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose - For starters, I don't think a user should negotiate his own block, especially when he is diverting much of the blame from himself. If anything, this block should last a week. I won't comment on whether just Hijiri or both users will be blocked, but if there was some actual effort to improve on conduct than there would not even have to be any blocks given.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 21:25, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I believe that this is Hijiri88's response to Dennis Brown's earlier request that Hijiri88 explain how he would handle this situation. However, I also note that Dennis seemed to ask in that question what Hijiri would do to ensure that events such as his regular appearances at ANI would be avoided, and, sadly, there doesn't seem to be any indication in this that Hijiri would actually do anything, which is probably not sufficient under the circumstances. Hijiri's basic cluelessness in regard to the frequency and gross unacceptability of his recent conduct is to my eyes unfortunately an extremely good indication that Hijiri is not competent to judge this situation at all, and that any remedial action taken would have to such that takes into account the fact that Hijiri, apparently, has little if any reservations about his actions, in any of his recent threads here and elsewhere, and apparently no clue that they are grossly out of line with our conduct guidelines. John Carter (talk) 22:36, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree. AlbinoFerret 23:10, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • No idea what a block of a week would achieve which a block of 48 hours wouldn't. A longer block is plainly a punitive measure. Anyway, I don't support any blocks, since nothing will be achieved. As I mentioned above, in my opinion, the edit-warring was as much (if not more) disruptive than any incivility Hijiri88 exhibited, so I do not see what is wrong with Hijiri88 citing that behaviour in their response, while also accepting their own incivility. Actually, I am not exactly sure what John Carter wants. Unless they propose some concrete measure which Hijiri88 should fulfill, I simply see the above as a request to grovel in some publicly acceptable way. I don't think that achieves anything since editors have pride.
    My own proposal would be to somehow encourage/force Hijiri to use more WP:DR methods than endless argument on talk pages, which inevitably ends with them losing their temper. I don't know how to enforce that: it would not be desirable to legislate such things anyway. A rough suggestion is: no more than 2 replies on a particular point overall, and no more than 2 replies per day. Open an RfC/use RSN boards/WP:3O etc. if there is still an impasse. Of course, the normal WP:ONUS/WP:BURDEN/WP:BRD apply. Kingsindian ♝♚ 01:01, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Proposal: Ban or probation for CurtisNaito

    The real problem here is CurtisNaito's misuse of sources, either WP:SYNTH or misrepresenting them, plus WP:CIR, edit warring, multiple attempts to game the system, and WP:IDHT on talk pages. Rather than passing out blocks I propose that CurtisNaito is put on some kind of probation, where if he violates the above-linked policies and guidelines within a certain period he then recieves blocks. I would say three months minimum. If he can use sources correctly, avoid edit wars, and learn to communicate and take responsibility for his actions, then the probation will be lifted and he can go on his merry way. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 03:16, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    @AlbinoFerret: and how exacly does this harm the situation? If you belive that incivility is more deserving of a block/ban than half of what CurtisNaito has done and continues to do, then either you haven't actually looked into this issue and/or your priorities need to be straightened out. We can build an encyclopedia with talk pages full of incivility; we can't build an encyclopedia with articles full of SYNTH, OR, and edit wars. And any blocks for anyone involved is simply punitive. The point of blocks/bans is to reform and deter disruptive editors, and a block isn't helpful in this case. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 04:01, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Building an encyclopedia requires civility. You already know my opinions on the rules applying to everyone WP:NOTABOVE because you have edited my essay. Regardless of if someone is great at content, breaking civility rules cant be ignored. By doing so you embolden the rule breaker by making them feel untouchable. So we are back again, and again, and again. This needs to end, not by blocking or banning because of content, but because of behaviour. So far that only applies to one person in this wide section on this page. AlbinoFerret 04:38, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    @AlbinoFerret: I agree to a point, however you are wrong that this only applies to Hijiri. The edit warring, gaming, and IDHT/CIR by CurtisNaito is also a behavioral issue, and then you have these content issues that are constantly caused by him. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ 会話) 04:57, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    (Edit conflict) @AlbinoFerret: How exactly is repeatedly initiating edit wars, refusing to use the talk page to discuss changes, repeatedly violating consensus, and bringing content disputes to ANI when one doesn't get on's way "civil" and not deserving of some form of sanction? You claim my "incivility" is a constant, recurring problem, and therefore deserving of sanctions above CurtisNaito's violations, but the only instances of me being uncivil that you and John Carter (who has also been brought to task for haranguing me and disrupting talk page discussions in the last six months) have been able to dig up that weren't brought on by extreme frustration with CurtisNaito and TH1980's own rather deplorable lack of talk page etiquette took place seven months ago under similarly frustrating circumstances with plenty of incivility on the part of all parties. John Carter (check my first interaction with him for references to Daisaku Ikeda and DRN) and CurtisNaito (re: Drmies never called me out for inviting talk page input from Nishidani) have outright lied about me -- how is anything I have sone more worthy of sanctions than this? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:21, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    AlbinoFerret's obsessive focus on a narrow definition of civility and contempt for context and the idea of working towards real solutions is contributing nothing but drama and is disruptive. Check out how this accuses Hijiri of "retaliation ... for [CurtisNaito] posting a comment against Hijiri" when Hijiri showed up at one of the most-watched pages in WP:JAPAN just after it was promoted to GA—then when I pointed out Cebr1979's very recent beef against Hijiri, AlbinoFerret tries to distort the record by implying (a) that Cebr's 195 edits to ANI were some sort of proof that he was a regular here who just happened to stop by; and (b) that Hijiri and I are in cahoots because we both happened to have edited one of WP:JAPAN's most-watched pages recently. This behaviour is difficult to accept as good faith—but even if it's simple incompetence, it's disruptive. If a regular at ANI is simply incapable of dealing with the context of an incident then they have no business being here. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 07:19, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose - At this point I think both users should be warned and this discussion should be closed. It's clear that outside editors are aware with this case. If more issues arise we will be right back here and appropriate measures will be swiftly put into place. As of right now, however, if you, Sturmgeweher really want a "probation" than you can monitor their behavior and register an AN/I when you see something wrong. Anything else would just be punitive.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 03:51, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    @TheGracefulSlick: very well, but I promise we will be right back here at ANI in the near future unless indef blocks get handed out (which they won't). ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 04:01, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Well to be completely honest, I agree that were just going to be right back here soon. I'm appealing more to the political side of Wikipedia right now, since not many editors seem to actually want to resolve this right now. Indef blocks seem really extreme, but the others will get it right if (or when) one of these users cause even more damage. I wish I could ease your worry, but you'll just have to be diligent to protect articles from harm.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 04:19, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support Entirely separate from my proposal that Curtis and I receive a short two-way block, the community is clearly exhausted with the former's constant violations of content policies, talking other users out of their normal, friendly personalities with tens of thousands of words of IDHT non-sequiturs, unapologetic edit-warring and gaming of the system from the former, and a more long-term solution is always welcome. No user who has ever had to deal with CurtisNaito on a talk page would oppose some such proposal to deal with root of the problem, as Nishidani, Phoenix7777, Curly Turkey and Signedzzz can attest. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:21, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose and note that Hijiri88 is in no position to talk about the exhaustion of the community, considering. BMK (talk) 05:47, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Move war regarding Baahubali

    MOVE PROTECTED
    Page has been move protected and discussion opened on talk page. (non-admin closure) --Cebr1979 (talk) 09:28, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    There is a move war going on. The article was stable at Production of Baahubali for several months before the move war sent it to places like Baahubali (film series) and Baahubali . It should probably be moved back there and locked until a proper move discussion can take place. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:48, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I think I have notified the users who have "moved" the content, either by actual move or redirect, but I may have missed some. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:56, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    It seems to expand beyond just production details (something like Kill Bill) so I thought to move it. But it can't be a sseries" with just two entries. Kailash29792 (talk) 20:53, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Production of Baahubali was moved to Baahubali (film series) without prior discussion by IndianCinemaRasigan. I moved it back to Production of Baahubali on the basis that discussion was warranted, and if the editor felt that the contents of the article had exceeded production details, then the contents should be trimmed instead of changing the scope of the article. I left the user a talk page note to that effect. CambridgeBayWeather then moved it to Baahubali citing Kill Bill as the precedent, which is an article that presents an overview of the 2 film Kill Bill series. That's the last I was aware of the article moves. I was fine with it being at Production of Baahubali, and there is precedent for this format at Production of Watchmen, for instance. I would support moving it back until a move discussion can take place. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 21:05, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Slight error there Cyphoidbomb. The article was listed at Category:Candidates for speedy deletion. When you move a page it uses whatever was in the speedy deletion as an edit summary. See this for another example. I thought it was a genuine G6. My apologies if this was not an uncontroversial move. I have moved it back and protected it from further moves. I am now of to the Village Pump to see if the edit summary can be fixed to include the G6 link. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 21:56, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    CambridgeBayWeather If my comment came across as criticism, it was not intended. I was only going by what the logs say. "12:19, September 8, 2015 CambridgeBayWeather (talk | contribs | block) moved page Production of Baahubali to Baahubali (It is expanding beyond production details. may become something like Kill Bill." Cyphoidbomb (talk) 22:04, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    No problem there Cyphoidbomb. It is due to the poor (default) edit summary. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 22:07, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    And I just gave IndianCinemaRasigan an warning for edit warring. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 21:59, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Seems like a good candidate for a discussion at Wikipedia:Requested moves if there is still a question of this article being at Production of Baahubali. Liz Read! Talk! 22:10, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Arkon on Weatherman articles

    Arkon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has just appeared on, and begun edit warring the descriptor "terrorist" into,[97][98][99][100][101] two related articles, Bill Ayers and Weather Underground. Their dismissive tone on removing my two cautions,[102][103] and continuing to edit war after those cautions, are a break-down of editing process. I bring this here rather than the BLP notice board, page protection, or an edit war report, because this article space has a particular issue with this kind of WP:BATTLE approach to the WP:TERRORIST label. Many accounts have been blocked and banned here. If you look at the historic RfC on the matter at Talk:Weather Underground Organization/Terrorism RfC, the three main proponents were all blocked as socks. So this needs some extra oversight as a result. Content disputes we can handle just fine on the talk page; incorrigible edit warring to call a well known figure a terrorist needs some attention. Incidentally, although it's important to quickly revert these sorts of inappropriate edits once or twice while giving appropriate requests and if necessary cautions, to bring content matters to the talk page, I'm not going to do that any further now that Arkon has made it clear they will simply edit war any attempt to keep the status quo. Thanks, - Wikidemon (talk) 00:22, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Check my contribs in the last 24 hours for any necessary response. Feeling awfully Australian in here. Arkon (talk) 00:25, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The deceptive editing of the WU article (stating things don't exist there, that do, then editing to remove them), and then strange comment formatting here (changing my ident to a lower level after a subsequent response, then claiming it was an add (after a response no the less), is enlightening. Arkon (talk) 00:59, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I have no idea what this editor is ranting about. This is a simple matter that shouldn't get off track. Best not to bluster into high conflict topic areas in WP:BATTLE mode with an unyielding determination to edit war. If so, collaboration comes to a complete halt and we need help to end the jam. - Wikidemon (talk) 01:24, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    You don't recall your edit to the WU [104] to remove the terrorist descriptor after you said that such a thing didn't exist [105]? That's rough. Arkon (talk) 01:30, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I have provided a reference on the Bill Ayers article supporting the claim that the Weatherman group was a terrorist entity. I'm sorry to say it took three attempts because there was a mandatory underscore preceding the 012904 in the url and I made a typo or two. Akld guy (talk) 01:40, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Have done the same on the Weather Underground article. Akld guy (talk) 02:03, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Much appreciated, though not sure it's necessary cause those refs were in the body. Either way, it's an improvement if it stops things like the above. Arkon (talk) 02:08, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Yep. I'm thinking he/she is closely aligned with the people or entities in the articles, and therefore has WP:COI. Should never have been brought here. Akld guy (talk) 02:39, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    (ecX4) Akld guy, what gives with the bizarre accusations? And Arkon, what's with the accusations of lying? If you want to discuss content in good faith you'll have to start, on the article talk page, respecting that there has been both a local and global consensus about the terrorism label for about seven years, and also a policy against edit warring. You may wish to question or challenge consensus, which is your right, but that consensus did take into account all of the arguments and sources you appear to be presenting. Working in collaboration rather than reflexively slinging accusations to defend bad editing practice is also a must. If you're having trouble understanding what I am saying, you might just try asking me instead of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. But back to the point, if I or another editor restore the long term consensus version that doesn't call people terrorists will you respect that and bring any concerns or proposals up on the talk page? If yes, we're done here. If no, you're vowing to edit war and we need administrative help. Your call. - Wikidemon (talk) 02:48, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I have no problem understanding you, we've known each other a while (or at least I remember our previous interactions). What actually matters is the content, which you seem to be trying to argue here. I warned you of the futility of that. You're just wrong and need to be wary of the boomerang. Arkon (talk) 02:59, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    No boomerang, don't be ridiculous. Sorry, I don't remember our earlier interactions but I'm sure you're a fine upstanding editor and I hope we had good spirits, I get along with nearly everyone here. Regarding content, I'm asking for help with your little editing hiccup here, not the substance of what it regards. By the BRD approach, and almost any other constructive way of dealing with these things, the burden is on you to make a proposal, explain why, and convince the community. And especially not to try to win content arguments by edit warring, particularly where there are strong BLP concerns. The arguments have already been made, hundreds of thousands if not millions of bytes of them by dozens of editors, available one or two clicks away on the article talk pages and archives. Some of the viewpoints in the RfC are very thoughtful and convincing, despite all the socking and process games. If you want to discuss on the article talk page, other editors and I can certainly respond to specific points. - Wikidemon (talk) 03:13, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    [106] Arkon (talk) 03:25, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    And I responded in detail[107] while cautioning you about edit warring, but you continued edit warring, so here we are. Again, if I or another editor restore the status quo version of these articles that omits the terrorism label, will you revert them again or will you wait for the outcome of the discussion? - Wikidemon (talk) 04:04, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    @Wikidemon: Look, the FBI classifies the movement a terrorist one, and I added their url as a reference. There's no question but that it's a reliable source. If you and others want to debate on the Talk page that living individuals have seen the error of their ways during the past 40 years, go ahead, I agree that they have but don't expect me to be sympathetic to your latter-day revisionism. It was terrorism then and the passage of time cannot change that. Akld guy (talk) 05:15, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The FBI does no such thing, but any discussion about that particular web page as a source can be had (and has, at length) on the article talk pages. I'm not asking you to take any particular point of view about who is a terrorist, only that editors not edit war to enforce theirs. - Wikidemon (talk) 06:47, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    This seems to be a content dispute, but can you explain precisely what part of the Al Qaeda article you're referring to which is similar to the example shown here where Weather Underground is simply labelled a terrorist organisation in wiki voice [108]?

    I had a look through the entire article by searching for terror. Ignoring direct quotes, there are plenty of mentions of terrorist attacks, terrorist plots, terrorist acts, terrorism convictions etc. As well as various organisations and countries labelling it is a terrorist group. What I can't find is where we did anything similar and label it as a terrorist organisation in wiki voice. Probably the closest is "Al-Qaeda decided to step in and assumed control of around 80% of the terrorist cells in Bosnia in late 1995" and perhaps "U.S-led efforts to eradicate the sources of terrorist financing" (although this seems to more be referring to them as financing terrorism rather than them being financed as a terrorist group). There were also "terror outfit's latest advance into India" and "primary source of funding of Sunni terrorist groups worldwide was Saudi Arabia", but both of these can be read as the views of the people quoted, even if the wording wasn't a direct quote.

    In any case, the situation in the Al Qaeda article aside, if there was a previous RFC and an attempted change was rejected, it would probably be best for a new RFC.

    Nil Einne (talk) 16:58, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Oh it's definitely a content dispute. I was speaking of this part:
    "It has been designated as a terrorist group by the United Nations Security Council, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO), the European Union, the United States, Russia, India, and various other countries (see below)."
    The wording wasn't exactly the same, but I'd certainly be happy with using that page as a template for a solution. Quibbles over that don't bother me, the correct descriptor for the group is the point. Arkon (talk) 17:05, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    That's an extremely different wording. One is fine in the article on the group is factual since it's only saying what other significan entities have called the group. The other is far more problematic since it's calling the group a terrorist group point blank. Nil Einne (talk) 17:10, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Actually our article already says "The FBI, on its website, describes the organization as having been a "domestic terrorist group", but no longer an active concern" so what you're saying you need to add is already there. Whether or not this belongs in the WP:LEAD would have to be discussed on the article talk page, probably with an RFC if this was dealt with in the previous RFC. Nil Einne (talk) 17:15, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    BTW, if you don't see why the wordings are very different and that this matters, that's a problem. In itself I wouldn't say it's something for ANI, but if you've been edit warring over it, that is quite concerning. Nil Einne (talk) 17:18, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes I know, my edit was to the lead, and I opened a section on talk. Kinda preaching to the choir here. As to the wording, that's part of the edit process, as I said I am happy to mimic the AQ article. Are you reading my responses? Arkon (talk) 17:21, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes I am and you're making me more and more concerned. You shouldn't be editing articles where it comes up, particularly not BLPs, if you don't understand the difference between the two wordings. You particularly shouldn't be edit warring. Opening up a discussion on the talk page is not an excuse for edit warring. Discussion does not require edit warring. If you don't learn quick, I would support a topic ban. Nil Einne (talk) 17:23, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Good lord. Now I'm concerned. Where in the world are you getting the idea that I "don't understand the difference between the two wordings". I've explicitly stated the opposite, what, 3 times now? Arkon (talk) 17:27, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Where did you do so? The first thing you said here when I brought up the fundamental difference between the Al Qaeda article you were comparing this to, was:

    The wording wasn't exactly the same, but I'd certainly be happy with using that page as a template for a solution. Quibbles over that don't bother me, the correct descriptor for the group is the point.

    Where you basically told me you didn't understand the difference. You seemed to think it was only a minor quibble over wording that "doesn't bother" you, when it's actually fundamentally different and completely non comparable (despite being brought up by you as an example). One was potentially a serious NPOV problem, the other provided it was factual, would not be (at least in the article, not necessarily in the lead). And if you understood this fundamental difference between the two wordings, why were you trying to add the other wording earlier without apparently having anything close to sufficient sourcing?
    Nil Einne (talk) 17:37, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Wow, that's terribly bad reading between the lines. I've been agreeing with you for the last 20 minutes, make the edit with your suggested wording and you have my support. You act like I was editing out the attribution. Leave the poor mind reading to the carnivals please. Arkon (talk) 17:39, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Nil Einne observes: Actually our article already says "The FBI, on its website, describes the organization as having been a "domestic terrorist group", but no longer an active concern" so what you're saying you need to add is already there. Whether or not this belongs in the WP:LEAD would have to be discussed on the article talk page, probably with an RFC if this was dealt with in the previous RFC.
    Arkon suggests: ...make the edit with your suggested wording and you have my support.
    Yeah, Arkon definitely isn't hearing Nil Einne. Does that help? Xenophrenic (talk) 18:20, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Nil has stated that the correct way to make that edit (to the lead, btw, which should summarize the body which you just pasted), would be to attribute it. I agree with that. If they were to make that edit, yes I would support it. It's gonna be funny to read 50 different groups/magazines/papers/books that label them as such, but if that's the way it's gotta be. Does that help? Arkon (talk) 19:09, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Incorrect. Nil didn't state that. While Nil Einne did point out to you the difference between an assertion of fact and an attributed assertion, he also clarified "(at least in the article, not necessarily in the lead)", and rather than offer to suggest lede paragraph wording for you, the suggestion was for you to make your case as to why it should be in the lede. Is that a little less confusing? I'll be happy to try again and again if you need me to. Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 21:23, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Ah, so apparently now you think it shouldn't be attributed in the lead? Or you think Nil said that? Or are just taking out of context pieces of sentences and framing them in the manner you wish? Or are you just trying to derail this into something other than the disagreement over inclusion of well sourced material that exists in the body of the article? Either way, I have no wish to follow you down this rabbit hole that has nothing to do with aligning said articles with WP:LEAD. Arkon (talk) 21:30, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    This is a behavioral report asking for administrator attention regarding edit warring on a high-conflict article, that you are responding to with content claims and reckless accusations about other editors' motives. If it is going off track, that is your own doing. All you have to do on the behavioral end is to promise you do not intend to further edit war, and hopefully keep that promise. - Wikidemon (talk) 22:09, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    ^ This right there. A complete lack of awareness of the fact that they were on the other side of these edits. This is the IDHT behavior that summarizes this situation. Arkon (talk) 22:23, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    What on earth are you possibly talking about? You hit 3RR trying to call a living person a terrorist. I cautioned you not to do that and took it here rather than reverting as a last resort, when you made it clear you would not leave the articles in their stable version. Two editors reverted you and five or six editors and a bot have reverted similar edits in the past. - Wikidemon (talk) 22:35, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I did 3 reverts, yup. How many did you do again? Also, that's a lie that I tried to call a living person a terrorist. I was following WP:LEAD. So yeah, again ^ this right here. You should be ashamed. Arkon (talk) 22:37, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I have carefully followed procedure here, so blowing smoke will not help you. You did 5 reverts across 2 articles, after I urged you to stop. I reverted the first three of these, and another editor reverted the final two. If it hadn't been us it would have been someone else. This is the fourth time you have accused me of lying by the way, which is rather offensive and its own behavioral problem. I can't tell if you believe your own rhetoric, but you need to cool down and stop playing games. You wanted to call Bill Ayers the leader of a former terrorist organization in the first sentence of the lede of his bio article. I've never heard of the head of a terrorist organization not being a terrorist, but again you go off track. You're done edit warring, right? - Wikidemon (talk) 22:50, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Nope, that's first time I called you a liar, and it was a lie and continues to be. I supplied diffs for facts(that is the other times I called you a "liar" according to you) above [109], which you don't dispute btw, cause you can't. You were deceptive, and now you are ramping that up with disparaging remarks that are patently false. I correctly labeled an organization, which is labeled as such in their article (in the lede and body, until you removed the lede). Your behavior has veered from funny into unacceptable. Arkon (talk) 22:57, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Okay, five or six times now, depending on whether calling me a liar twice in one comment counts as one or two. For seven years consensus has run against calling the organization or its members terrorists and the articles were mostly stable on that point. Other editors have corrected you about that history and I had to demonstrate it to you[110]] after you refused to check. Look, that's neither here nor there. You're having a meltdown. Refusing to admit you're wrong is hard, and nobody is asking for that. Just please stop edit warring, and now that you've started lobbing accusations against me and other editors, cut that out too. - Wikidemon (talk) 23:22, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    To be clear, I'm not going to add anything to the article. As I already mentioned I'm not sure the wording belongs in the lead. That's a content dispute you should discuss that in an appropriate RFC. The lead summarises the article but whether description of WU as a domestic terrorist organisation on the FBI website is significant enough for the lead will need to be established. By definition, a summary will always miss a number of stuff. For a long article, it's going to miss a lot.

    Even if you were to start an RFC, I don't care enough to get involved. What I am concerned about is your apparent inaibility to understand that the wordings are fundamentally different and why this matters. It matters because you therefore made a major error in edit warring to preserve the other wording which could easily violate NPOV would need very strong sourcing support it. You can call it reading between the lines if you want but when asked for justification, you pointed to an article which did not use this problematic wording. When I pointed this out in the first instance, I hoped that you would understand and at a minimum undertake to be far more careful in the future. But instead all I see is a continued fuss over the content dispute.

    This is a big deal particularly when you are messing with articles where BLP come up. If you still think I'm reading between the lines, I assume this means you have an explanation as to how you made such an error even though you did understand the wordings are not comparable. You're welcome to provide it. In the absence of that, I can only go by what was actually said here and as mentioned you've said nothing to indicate you understand the problem or more importantly, are unlikely to repeat it. Hence why I'm seriously pondering whether to propose a topic ban on editing BLPs which unlike a content dispute, is something for ANI.

    Nil Einne (talk) 14:27, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    • I agree that this is not a reasonable debate, and the efforts to edit-war the label into the lede sentence contravenes multiple Wikipedia policies. As noted above, the label insertion goes against long-standing consensus developed after multiple discussions and wide RfC input. Consensus can change, or at least be revisited, but that is to be done on the article Talk pages — not with the 'Undo' button on the article(s). The repeated insertion of the label in Wikipedia's voice violates WP:NPOV as well as WP:LABEL, the erroneous "There's no question but that it's a reliable source" notwithstanding — that source is only reliable for the opinions of that source. Also erroneous is the argument that the contentious and disputed label was only being attached to an organization, not a person; that organization is a very small group of identified individuals, and therefore subject to the extended sourcing requirements and considerations of our BLP policies. The information about how the organization has been perceived and described by different sources is already present in the article. The attempt to morph that disputed description into a statement of fact in Wikipedia's voice in the article lede will require serious discussion and a strong argument to reverse community consensus. Xenophrenic (talk) 17:16, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      I'd certainly be interested in the conversation if you brought your BLP concerns up at the correct noticeboards. Arkon (talk) 17:24, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      When I have BLP concerns, I do indeed bring them up at the correct noticeboards. Xenophrenic (talk) 18:20, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      Sweet, shoot me a link when you open one if you please. Arkon (talk) 19:10, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      If I open one, of course. But it is far more likely any comment by me on BLP matters related to this issue will be in the form of a response. Xenophrenic (talk) 21:23, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Any way to conclude this?

    • The only thing to resolve here is avoiding edit wars in some difficult article space. I think this is degenerating into mud slinging I really don't like being called a liar when asking for help. If anybody's up to it can we resolve this? I would hope just an admonition not to edit war (I've already said I won't) and not to call other editors names or other WP:BATTLE approaches to resolving conflicts? If it flares up again we can always re-open. Thanks, - Wikidemon (talk) 23:22, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      This should definitely be closed, however your deceptive editing [111] should at least be addressed. I'll let the personal attacks and casting of aspersions slide for now. Arkon (talk) 23:41, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      Yes, I let that, your second accusation that I was lying, slide along with the first. I thought it best, then as now, not to let you drag the discussion off the subject of your edit warring by making retaliatory accusations against me and other editors. The solution to an edit warring problem is usually to stop edit warring, not to accuse people of lying. In case anyone is daft enough to take that seriously, I've dropped an explanation of it on the article talk page, where you repeat the accusation.[112]
    • Arkon, quit trying to reverse the topic. Your behavior has been consistently uncivil and combative and you're obviously either unable or unwilling to accept or even acknowledge the other editors' concerns about why imposing the label as you're trying to do is inappropriate, regardless of the citations. The problem here is obviously entirely rooted in your apparent unwillingness to acknowledge the difference between an article saying "X is a terrorist organization" and "X is considered to be a terrorist organization by Y and Z" and your refusal to civilly discuss the issue with editors who are opposed to implementing the former, in line with fundamental policies and practices. By all means, if you want to add the contested label "terrorist" you may attempt to do so through civil discussion, consensus-building and dispute resolution, but if you continue down this current path you're likely to end up blocked sooner rather than later. Swarm ♠ 06:21, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Dutch Schultz and Arnold Rothstein

    Hello. An IP user (or two) has umabiguously stated their "Jewish conspiracy" paranoia and is making edits to downplay or erase the Jewish history/ethnicity of two organized crime figures. The edits, while seemingly random and nonetheless absurd, are exceeded by the IP's(s') insistence. Best illustrated at Talk:Dutch_Schultz#Dutch_Schultz.27s_Judaism and on my Talk Page.

    They started with edits like this and this by 50.174.10.195 and are now being made by 4.35.70.123.

    Seems pretty clearcut and agenda-heavy to me. JesseRafe (talk) 18:20, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Absolute nonsense. Stop creating and putting words in other people's mouths like "Jewish conspiracy." Where did I say "Jewish conspiracy."? You are inflaming the tension by creating words and sentences. I'm open to compromise. You are being absolutist. No change, all revert, back to 100% same. I'm open to change. I'm offering a solution, you are not offering anything. I disagree with your content on that article. Work with me, change it a little bit and move on. This complaining, whining, bringing up Jewish conspiracy is nonsense and waste of time. Reference for your future edits. 4.35.70.123 (talk) 18:30, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    You may not have said "Jewish conspiracy", but when you suggest a group of Jewish editors is working together and further allege a specific editor is part of that group,[113] I think "Jewish conspiracy" is a fair description. —C.Fred (talk) 18:37, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    No one said anything about "Jewish conspiracy" until "Jewish conspiracy" was brought up on this page. 4.35.70.123 (talk) 18:46, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The comment I linked was made two hours before this ANI case was opened. —C.Fred (talk) 18:48, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: Also worth noting this editor's (on however many IPs they may be using) systematic approach to making unsourced name-changes as well as de-linking or de-emphasizing an article's subject's Judaism, cf: Isaac Steinberg diff using both the 4... and 50... IPs mentioned here. To say nothing of whatever he or she may continue to write on my Talk Page. JesseRafe (talk) 18:42, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Work with me and get 50-50%. I'm willing to compromise, but this blank revert by your part is not clicking with me. I'm making good faith edits. I'm trying to make the intro readable than "German-Jewish-American" Simplify the article and move on. 4.35.70.123 (talk) 18:45, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    It doesn't and never has said that. Your true motivations are evident.JesseRafe (talk) 18:50, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Cut down the "Jewish" talk by about 50% on that article. Let's make a change that is different from your total blank revert and my edit. So in other words, the change will be different from the previous version and different from my edit. This "Jewish" talk on that page is making it just very unreadable and uncomfortable to read honestly. The article is really becoming not about Dutch Schultz himself, but about being Jewish and how Jewish he was, which he was not. 4.35.70.123 (talk) 18:55, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    "Jewish talk" is making you "uncomfortable"? I think we found the problem and the source in the same place... JesseRafe (talk) 18:59, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Everett Stern COI editing and supposed "extortion"

    Following my first small edits on Everett Stern, on July 28th, I posted the Biography article on the WP:TAFI board, where it was voted down based on WP:GNG. I then nominated it for deletion based on the following input and opposition from several other editors on the grounds of WP:GNG. The article was kept, but I later noticed that several edits on the article and the article itself seemed to read like a political campaign ad rather than a neutral Wikipedia article. Another editor agreed with me and posted this on the WP:COI/N.

    An IP editor joined the conversation on the Everett Stern talk page with regards to the evident COI editing with this, along with several attempts to blank the talk page between last night and today.

    Everett Stern has now identified himself and continues to accuse me of having a "political agenda," following the earlier edits of the IP address editor (which also identified itself as being the 'Everett Stern' team after a series of comments threatening legal action) as well as continuous statements which claim that I am somehow involved with 'extortion,' and several cases of WP:Outing. (A minor note, these OUTING edits have been oversighted. Primefac (talk) 19:56, 10 September 2015 (UTC))[reply]

    These accusations are completely unwarranted, are against Wikipedia policies and standards, and neither Stern nor his colleagues are conducting themselves in appropriate manners. I have contributed to discussions as to the progress of certain Wikipedia pages upon subjects with which Stern has personally involved himself with, and I do not appreciate his continuous comments as I have only brought to some attention the fact that Stern had paid someone to edit his article, which was previously undisclosed and questioned the notability and neutrality of the article, which are indeed appropriate in the context of Wikipedia, and especially so when the person in question is soon to be involved with a political campaign. Ladysif (talk) 18:50, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I apologize but I have already notified the response team and am drafting another email to them. I will not engage in this conversation in a public forum due to its sensitive nature. Everettstern (talk) 18:56, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I further apologize but Ladysif making the following statements about the subject is concerning..."his website is a pay-per-use scam" "Honestly, apart from the HSBC scandal, he has not made national news or had any media attention, and his campaign has not been given any mainstream attention. He spends most of his time accusing people of terrorism and his website is a pay-per-use scam, more or less. You can see his attempts to draw his attention to himself here and I have reverted a couple of edits on at least pages where someone had gone in and added his "conclusions" Everettstern (talk) 18:59, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Indent your comments and do not quote me without the context of my comment. A comment on my talk page in response to another editor's question is not damaging to your article - I was asked why I thought that the article subject did not meet WP:Notability standards and provided an answer. Ladysif (talk) 19:01, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    @Everettstern: If you are handling the matter through OTRS then stop making allegations on-wiki... just stop. I have explained to you about outing, not making personal attacks and avoiding even the seeming of making legal threats and explained how this can lead to loss of editing privlages. [114] Ladysif, the editor most effected by your behavior has started that process by opening this thread. Now un-involved administrators and other editors will examine the issue to see what, if any, action should be taken. Wikipedia is a community of volunteer editors and ANI is one of the way we enforce out norms of proper behavior. Whether and how you participate is your choice. JbhTalk 20:05, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    @[[User:Jbhunley| I understand. Please understand this is a very frustrating experience. I do not mean any offense to Wikipedia. I just want this situation resolved. I will not be participating in anymore discussions as I am not familiar with the platform. Thank you for your time and help. Everettstern (talk) 20:41, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    This issue came up at WP:COIN#Everett Stern a few days ago. There seem to be about 17 SPAs and IP editors involved, not all on the same side. The response at COIN was to trim the article back to verifiable facts (there was a big section on "Political positions", cited to the candidate's website; that's gone), and now it's a bare-facts bio article. Right now, I think we're OK on the content front; edits by experienced editors are now down to fixing stray commas. Semi-protection might be helpful. On the "extortion" issue, it's not clear who, if anyone, is extorting what from whom. Nobody has mentioned libel/slander issues, and there's nothing in the article that's particularly embarrassing. What's the problem with the article, exactly? John Nagle (talk) 20:45, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    (edit conflict)@Everettstern: I am sorry you are running into such difficulties and I fully understand how confusing and arcane Wikipedia can be. Rest assured there are many eyes on your article now and while I can not say you will always be happy with the content of the article it is very unlikely any actual vandalism or violations of our policy on biographies of living persons will last very long if anyone does such a thing. If I can be of help please feel free to contact me on my talk page or {{ping}} {{ping|Jbhunley}}. I will keep your article and your talk page on my watch list so I can keep an eye on things as well. JbhTalk 20:56, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I want to explain the entire situation so the community understands where I am coming from. Please understand I am not making any accusations or legal threats. On or about July 20th my office received a phone call from JJJJJJJJ with WWWWW Inc. We were told that the Everett Stern Wikipedia page was going to be wiped out. I refused to pay WWWWW Inc. Immediately, thereafter, a Wikipedia editor proposed the Everett Stern page for deletion for not being notable. I have had tons of press so this was a very blatant and outlandish claim. I sent an email to the Wikipedia response team and KF responded and took immediate action by removing the tags.
    On or about September 9th, the same editor again added a Conflict of Interest Tag and stated that I wrote the article. My staff notified me of some concerning comments made on some of the talk pages. I was told that there was a very high chance that the editor was possibly part of the WWWWW Inc. group. I have tried on my own to repair the situation but it has become apparent that I cannot operate within the Wikipedia system when I do not know or understand the guidelines. My explanations on the talk pages are hurting me because I cannot give the full story and situation. I am not saying that the editor extorted me. I am not concerned with the editor. It could be pure coincidence. I am concerned with the company that threatened to wipe out my page. I have tried defending myself only to make the situation worse and for that I sincerely apologize. I have never dealt with a situation like this before and I am handling it personally. I am happy with the Wikipedia article if the Wikipedia community is happy with it. I have no influence over its contents. Please edit away. I am just fighting back because of the chances that this is related to the previous incident. Otherwise, please keep editing! It is just an honor to have a Wikipedia page on me. I do not care if editors want to make changes or propose tags. My concern comes in when it is being done unfairly and with a possible motive. Again, I am not accusing anyone. As of right now the talk page on my Wikipedia page is extremely damaging. I ask that Wikipedia removes the inappropriate comments. If Wikipedia wants to keep the comments then I respect that. I just want to close this chapter. Thank you for your time and help. Everettstern (talk) 21:17, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    You've had press on one "notable" scandal. Everything else is self-published and does not meet Wikipedia standards, not to mention the fact that the article as it was was poorly written and biased. I have not been here long and will turn to older editors' opinions over my own. Frankly I'm concerned that the person who evaluated my tag apparently was connected with you as well, considering as that's not quite a fair analysis of the tag to begin with... Anyway, you keep saying that you didn't do X X and X thing, and yet the edit records are here in plain view. Lying doesn't really help anything at all and I hope the outside administrators recognize that this situation is beyond ridiculous. Someone "wiping out" a page would have been caught immediately... that is blatant vandalism and the editor would be warned and/or blocked. Ladysif (talk) 21:43, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    @Ladysif: Sadly, it's not ridiculous. Please see Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/Orangemoody. Everettstern's situation has many parallels with the LTA case. KrakatoaKatie 22:06, 10 September 2015 (UTC) [reply]

    Now we have a coherent explanation of the problem. The questionable proposed-deletion edit is [115] by Ladysif (talk · contribs) (not an SPA, first edit March 2015). Previous editing by other editors did show strong signs of a conflict of interest from special purpose accounts. See [116], and especially [117], which has the edit comment "(Updated information about Stern and created a section for Tactical Rabbit as per his request. This job was performed by a freelance writer.)" At WP:COIN, deletion was discussed, but rejected; the article was trimmed of PR content instead. The actions there look routine to me. Anyway, at this point, nobody is going to wipe out the page, and nobody is going to be able to dump campaign material into it. It's now on the watch list of dozens of editors. I think we're done at WP:COIN for now.
    I assume that more detail on the extortion issue has been provided to ORTS, which may help. Any other reports of similar events at ORTS? John Nagle (talk) 22:10, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • People, I advised Mr. Stern to email OTRS after he mentioned the claimed extortion. What he is doing is, as far as I can see, precisely in line with the advice to biography subjects provided by OTRS. I wrote that standard response, though it may have changed since I stopped doing response work. We do not require people to understand our Byzantine rules and guidelines in order to correct a problem on a biography. Anyone who disputes sourcing of content on the article is at liberty to remove it and discuss it on Talk. Remember that WP:BLP applies in all namespaces. Guy (Help!) 22:19, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I added a note at Wikipedia talk:Long-term abuse/Orangemoody#Everett Stern, in case this is related to the Orangemoody mess. John Nagle (talk) 07:56, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Sandra opposed to terrorism

    Sandra opposed to terrorism has been making a lot of unnecessary and controversial edits on the 2015 Thalys train attack article, which have been reverted by me, Pincrete, Mezigue, and a number of other users. However, she continues putting those edits back into the article, and she has continued to do so despite ongoing discussions about them on the talk page. She also been making overly assertive comments in support of her positions regarding the edits. In addition, she needlessly criticized the quality of the article even though it's obvious she's the only one who has a real problem with what is being accepted as content. This is getting to the point of ridiculousness now and I think this problem needs to be addressed. Versus001 (talk) 23:07, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    The edits regarding the inclusion of Chris Norman being born in Uganda and the flags in the reaction sections, to name off the top of my head. Versus001 (talk) 00:10, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Please provide diffs. That will be the easiest way to get results. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:20, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    There were so many incidents, and I've lost track of the history. Sorry. Check the article's talk page; there are a number of discussions relating to these conflicts. Versus001 (talk) 01:43, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry, but it doesn't work like that. I can't go fishing for what I think you may think was against policy. Drmies (talk) 02:09, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I need to bring attention to what's happening in this article somehow. Sandra's showing no signs of giving up on these useless edits she's been making! IF you talk to Pincrete and Mezigue, they'll agree that she's been a source of trouble as of late. Versus001 (talk) 02:29, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    To me, Sandra is an inexperienced editor, with not very sound judgement, who has nonetheless succeeded in alienating most editors on the article by capricious, rather than vandalistic or PoV editing or behaviour. Individually, the edits (and edit reasons), are largely 'silly'. Sandra appears to get 'a bee in her bonnet' about an issue and invents spurious arguments to re-insert the wanted text. As an example, the majority opinion about a French actor, who happened to be on the train and who cut his hand trying to raise the alarm, but who was in no way in contact with the train attacker, was that he should be in one section of the article, where he is mentioned extensively, because of defending this argument, editors were accused of being 'anti-French', pro-American' etc.. Sandra was not winning the argument (she had none really, apart from caprice), so this message was left on French WP:Mort - Les Américains détestent M. Anglade . Ils ont retiré son nom de la liste des passagers. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry, aside from the absurdity that a large number of are not US, but French or 'other' why 'Mort' ?

    I could provide many other diffs, but will not do so, as I don't believe any 'ban' is called for at this stage. What would be useful is if someone could remind Sandra that if other editors object to an edit, one should engage on talk until at least the majority are persuaded, not simply leave a message on talk or in the edit reason that justifies the edit to oneself, especially as the messages and edit reasons make no sense to most of us much of the time.Pincrete (talk) 08:33, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I echo Pincrete's comments. The problem is that SotT's contributions to discussions don't make much more sense than her edits. I suspect this user might be a child, in which case I am not sure what the appropriate reaction is. (If they are not a child I know even less!) Mezigue (talk) 09:17, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Mezigue, individual comments would suggest to me 'young adult' or older in terms of age. Pincrete (talk) 10:03, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Either way, Sandra opposed to terrorism is a WP:SPA. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 13:33, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Not in the 'classic' sense of an editor who came here with a single PoV purpose. Pincrete (talk) 17:07, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    My sentiments exactly. :) Versus001 (talk) 21:46, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree with Pincrete's statement in that I don't feel that any ban or action is required at this tine. I couldn't find any edits made by Sandra opposed to terrorism on the article to justify that any action is required. All users involved should be reminded to discuss the matter on the article's talk page. On a side note, Sandra opposed to terrorism - you should not close ANI discussions where you are involved, as you (did earlier) to this discussion. ~Oshwah~ (talk) (contribs) 02:08, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I wasn't trying to suggest a ban. I just wanted the higher-ups to be aware of the problem and give an appropriate response. Versus001 (talk) 02:17, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    forum shopping

    I brought this to DRN (dispute resolution noticeboard) and some of these complaining editors declined to participate. Them bringing an issue here is, therefore, forum shopping. Editors who forum shop should be blocked.

    I explain my edits. I do not edit war but look for better references and give in to some ideas when a convincing reason is given. Sandra opposed to terrorism (talk) 23:52, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I was unaware that such a discussion had been opened there at the time. In fact, I am sure I was blocked from editing during that time. Also, if you wish not to edit-war, then I urge you to stop what you are doing and discuss it with everyone else first on the talk page, so we can reach a consensus and THEN the edit can be accepted. Versus001 (talk) 01:58, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Sandra ott, I alone declined to take part in the DRN, not 'some editors', and gave clear reasons, which I and others have explained. Briefly, they were that DRN should not be used till extensive 'talk' had failed to reach a solution. DRN is simply mediated discussion and it is slow. I have not brought this here, but even here you seem indifferent to the fact that 5 or 6 editors have exhausted their patience at times, because many of your edits seem simply capricious, though you are happy to re-insert them even when you know that they go against the broad consensus. You closed this ANI, because YOU decided it was 'forum shopping' (which it isn't). Even while here, you re-inserted 'born in Uganda' in the article (at last you understand the difference with 'Ugandan') giving a spurious reason (Daily Mail is NOT a better source thsn Gdn), the reason other editors don't want it is not because of the quality of the source, but because they think it is irrelevant (I don't care either way, but object to the behaviour). Your 'reason' for including this? Because 'African lives matter', that would be silly if he WERE African, but he isn't. Pincrete (talk) 09:29, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Reasons to close this discussion

    1. Forum shopping by the original posters of the ANI complaint. It was in DRN and can be reactivated simply by Pincrete giving the OK.

    2. It is a content dispute. Luckily it is not acid yet. There is multiple disagreements by multiple authors. GreenCardamom just sided with me as well as several other editors on at least some points. One issue is very basic. When writing a bio of a few sentences, their country of birth is important. One passenger who fought off the terrorists on the train was born in Uganda (Africa). Try deleting President Barack Obama's birth country and you WILL have a huge fight, from good Wikipedia writers, to Kenyan birthers, to occasional Wikipedia students, etc.

    3. We can agree in time. The content disputes are minor compared to the issues that other Wikipedia articles face. These include the use of flags, listing the country of birth, short bios, national reactions, etc.

    Let's have fun and write for Wikipedia and not create an acid environment. Sandra opposed to terrorism (talk) 16:05, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Sandra, good advice is when you are in a hole - the first thing to do is stop digging. Good advice when you at ANI, is to show the slightest understanding of WHY, criticisms are being made.
    The DRN cannot be reactivated by me, not simply for procedural reasons, but because the issue has been (fairly) amicably resolved on talk, what would we be disputing? Besides I'm not Versus who started this, if he and I and others agree about some things, that doesn't mean we are 'acting as one'.
    You don't seem able to understand what 'forum shopping' is, if Versus didn't get the result he wanted here, and went to another noticeboard arguing much the same thing, THAT would be forum shopping, but Versus didn't initiate the DRN, nor is he using this ANI to solve a content dispute. If you REALLY want to start a new DRN about whether 'born in Uganda' should be included, no one can stop you, but why not wait to see what the arguments on talk are?
    As far as I know, Obama was born in the US (unless his detractors have been right all along!), his Kenyan father/ siblings/ aunts/ visits, would NOT be mentioned where they were not relevant … … just as spending part of his childhood in Indonesia wouldn't suddenly make Obama Asian. Pincrete (talk) 19:03, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Renewed hostilities by Doc9871, after warning at ANI last month

    This is a followup to my previous ANI report about this user for personal attacks and threats to harass, at WP:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive895#Threats, aspersion-casting, etc. by Doc9871, which closed without action in the expectation that the behavior would stop: "The problem has been solved for now. Doc9871 has been warned, has accepted the warning, and has agreed not to continue. If this recurs we can come back here. --John (talk) 20:49, 13 August 2015 (UTC)". It has recurred after a short break.

    Immediate background: Some but not all of this relates to previous disputation regarding the essay that was formerly at WP:Don't feed the divas, presently at Wikipedia:Don't be high maintenance (a title not everyone is happy with, either, for related reasons). My reading of the close at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2015 August 11#Wikipedia:Diva is that the consensus to mark these titles and shortcuts as historical and soft-redir them, because "diva" is a [mostly] gendered insult, and was felt to be offensive, is a consensus against these terms being used henceforth or "advertised" with active shortcuts; both the discussion and the close make this clear. (This overturned a previous close to delete them all entirely.) I noticed that the talk page versions of some the page titles in that RfD were still going directly to the current talk page and, so I changed Wikipedia talk:Don't feed the divas to match its non-talk page, as a historical soft-redir to the current talk page, and WT:DIVA to redir to the former, so that both are also effectively "retired", per that RfD consensus.

    Uncivil, OWNish, POINTy reverts: The most vocal opponent of any changes to that essay or its name, Doc9871, has reverted this change [118], with a rude, WP:BATTLEGROUNDing edit summary (cf. previous ANI), and then similarly reverted [119] my notification of the essay's talk page that the RfD was closed. Neither of these revert edit summaries make any sense, demanding that an uninvolved admin should close the RfD, but that's precisely what already happened. This follows immediately on the heels of another pair of unrelated, WP:POINTy reverts of my disambiguation hatnotes [120], [121] (his reverts assert an opinion not a fact, about whether two California serial-killer cases involving cousins might be confused; I DAB'd them because I actually had in fact confused them, thus disproving the idea they cannot be confused). This revert was "justified" [122], using the same arguments that seem unaware of WP:OWN / WP:VESTED principles, that Doc9871 has pursued vigorously in the discussions about the essay: he treats incoming editors as having no right (or a lesser right ... it's hard to follow his reasoning on this) to edit a page if they haven't worked on it before, or as much. The civility problems appear to be habitual. See, e.g., this recent example, and pretty much the entire RM debate at the essay's talk page, regardless with whom Doc9871 was arguing (often Ihardlythinkso).

    Incivility, renewed harassment threats, and battlegrounding: Note that both that post, which is mostly a weasel-worded accusation of bad faith, and this one, contain barely-veiled further harassment threats of the you're-gonna-be-sorry-you-messed-with-me sort, that closely follow the previously reported pattern. As in the diffs given in the earlier ANI report, Doc9871 likes to use other editors' block logs and such as weapons, and conveys an attitude that he is utterly immune to any repercussions for anything just because his own block log is clean. I was content to never exchange another word with Doc9871, but he falsified multiple facts about my statements, intent, editing history, and off-WP history here (I've explained, again, why they're false here in the top half), and he then pursued these further (sometimes incoherent) hostilities. See also Doc telling me what he "told me to do": [123] (another of these I-have-more-editorial-rights maneuvers) in a message that is also re-re-re-hashing something we've been over many times, a continued WP:IDHT pattern adhered to throughout the entire debate about the essay. When it's pointed out to him that it's an IDHT pattern [124], he just indicated he's tired of hearing it [125], kind of proving the point.

    Requested remedy: I suggest again that a one-way interaction ban is justified, based on Doc's I'm-gonna-make-you-pay battlegrounding stance, as well as a topic-ban from the essay and discussions relating to it, since he's revertwarring about it in ways that obfuscate consensus regarding it, and it is the locus of his present most incivil behavior, for several months running.

    PS: The WP:MR about that essay, here, remains open after over a month, yet the discussion has moved on since then because of the RfD; the MR should be closed so that the final name and wording of the essay can be discussed, as explained here. MR just closed: No consensus to overturn.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  11:56, 11 September 2015 (UTC) Updated: 10:26, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    This editor should be banned from these boards. Massive ABF battleground mentality when things don't go his way. Currently under a topic ban from MOS for edit-warring, violations of WP:NPA and WP:CIV, and IDHT.[126]. Doc talk 12:07, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Huh? Not being verbally abused and menaced by you has nothing to do with "things not going my way". Every closure of every discussion related to that essay has, in fact, actually gone the way I proposed (including the MR, earlier today), so I'm not sure what this odd response is even supposed to mean. I've alleged no bad faith of any kind here, simply reported statements and behavior, supported with diffs. I have no idea at all what your reasoning is behind this behavior, other than that, judging from your previous pointed statements about "PC crap" [and many similar statements, diffed in the previous ANI], it's actually pretty clear that you have a WP:GREATWRONGS-style stance that "political correctness" is some kind of menace that WP needs to be protected from (e.g. per WP:NOT#CENSORED). And I actually tend to agree with that, when hypersensitivity to alleged "microaggressions" is taken to an extreme. But two closes of the RM, and now of the RfD, concluded in consensus against the "diva" language as offensive, whether you want to call it "PC crap" or not. Not all "PC crap" is actually PC, or crap. You don't have to have a bad-faith motivation to do unconstructive things like engage in months of personal hostility. "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions." I'm going to bed now, and will let the ANI editorial pool deal with this matter.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  12:11, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    PS: The the fact that I got a temporary topic ban from a guideline page, due to being a WP:JERK in that dispute, has zero to do with the matter at hand. See Handwave.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  12:13, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    You are every bit as abusive as you claim others to be. See: you've been blocked and topic banned for it. I have not. What makes you the expert on IDHT again? Right. Go to bed. Doc talk 12:14, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Both parties in that unfortunately heated argument (which was about a guideline, and OR at a topically related article, were to receive exactly the same sanctions, but the admin found that, due to a loophole (the party's Template:Ds/alert had expired), all the other party could be given under WP:ACDS was the alert, and a warning. That dispute is not comparable to this one. The fact that some discussion elsewhere, unrelated to this one, became mutually heated, does not mean this one is, or that the same issues are involved. They're not connected in any way, I'm bringing no heat or incivility to this report, only observations and diffs to support them. Doc9871 has provided nothing but "don't look at me, look at this irrelevant thing over there instead".
    User:Doc9871 was maintaining an essay. User:SMcCandlish proposed a drastic rewrite. In closing an RM, User:JzG imposed a creative solution greatly offensive to Doc9871. It is a GREATWRONG. This upsets people.
    I suggest that SMcCandlish & Doc9871 be forbidden to address or reference each other until the past is dust, after the Move Review is closed. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:24, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    WP-space essays don't belong to anyone in particular. Doc was not even a principle author of that essay, but made major undiscussed changes to it long after the fact, to which multiple editors have raised various objections. Completely separately from that, I suggested renaming it, and that its focus on labeling and casting aspersions on other editors was inappropriate. Others agreed. Two closers at the RM (the first of whom reopened it to settle the name after finding consensus against the "divas" name, both found consensus to move, and the second of the two also found change to the approach. The MR clearly has also found consensus against the original name (and just formally closed that way, with no consensus to overturn either of its findings), but the discussion there indicates that what the eventual name should be is uncertain, as is what exact approach the page should take. The RfD also came to a consensus against the old name. So what's the great wrong? I see at least three four closures in favor of the rename (which also directly affects all the "diva" content in it), and one too-long-open discussion, the lack of closure of which a) is was preventing getting on with settling on the name and approach, and b) is was providing a stimulus for further hostile behavior (and other disruption, like revertwarring against the RfD consensus) by Doc9871. I have to go to work now, no more time for this, and not much interest in arguing about it either; I've provided the needed diffs. An interaction ban could be mutual, I suppose, since I have no interest in interacting with him, but that would in fact be purely punitive toward me, since I have not accused Doc of bad faith, personally attacked him, denigrated his views as "crap", threatened to hound him, tried to use his old track record against him, called him names, misrepresented facts about him, etc., etc. That's all coming from one direction. Same goes for a mutual topic ban; I proposed a rename, and I reverted one time to the version that the second closer chose (note: the "no consensus to overturn" MR closure today technically reinstates it, BTW), because Doc replaced it in the middle of the MR, after it was already clear that such actions would be seen as disruptive. I haven't done anything to prevent Doc having his way since then (though the MR closure certainly has). Opening an ANI report about what I've opened these two about is not disruptive, it's standard operating procedure.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  16:49, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    This is about punishing me, not preventing disruption! Plus, that would mean both of us were somehow at fault, which I think would be most unacceptable to... what's-his-name. Both AN/I's that he's opened on me (which, I might add, are the only two in my tenure here) are focused in the "remedy" on some form of punishment. I'll take excommunication by catapult, please. Doc talk 12:55, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    This is self-evidently about prevention. That's why both ANI reports have been in direct response to unreasonable incivility and related behaviors. In the previous ANI, I already admitted mutual fault in the WP:BLUDGEONing complaint and making the argument heated, so the claim I can't admit such a thing is more aspersion-casting and falsehood. Dispute resolution, including ANI, is about prevention of such behavior, last I looked. Reversion rather than discussion of the hatnotes I added to unrelated articles that Doc seems proprietary toward (see OWNish diff), however, does look rather like "punishment", and perhaps the beginning of the hounding that Doc9871 has more-than-hinted at pursuing against me, doesn't it? See 2 diffs in this regard above above, plus the "until the bitter end" comment here, and of course this one: 'Ask around if I am one to quarrel with. I will "Wikilawyer" you, and really good. You don't have to like me: you have to reckon with me.' ANI regulars know what this indicates and what to do about it.

    At the last ANI, Doc was warned to stop, and acknowledged the warning, but has not stopped, just laid low for a couple of weeks. What else is there to it? I did nothing to provoke this new round of battlegrounding, other than comply with an RfD, post a notice about its conclusion, and suggest that the MR finally be formally closed, which is overdue (and which was acted on today), and I corrected several false statements he made about me.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  16:49, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I reckon you probably don't need to correct the false statements, we are nasty suspicious bastards and will generally check such things and trout anyone who tries it on. It does seem clear to me that Doc is the problem, not you. It's quite important that you demonstrate that here. I think your tone has been measured and his has not, but I am very obviously an involved party so that may just be a reflection of the fact that he's spent several weeks going on and on and on and on and on and on about how I was wrong, evil, violating policy and probably responsible for the murder of Rasputin :-) Guy (Help!) 18:19, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I appreciate your wry optimism, but I'm frequently character-assassinated with impunity on WP, and virtually never is anything done about it. I think you are more popular than me. Heh.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  10:26, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    SMcCandlish conveniently forgets to mention that we were both told to stay away from the issue and let others handle it.[127] Not just me and not him. He has not only not stayed away, he has tried to rush it through in his favor. The recent close states: "My personal suggestion would be for everyone to walk away for a bit and maybe come back later. " That's everyone, not "Doc9871 but not SMcCandlish" And that was the same exact sentiment the first time. Doc talk 21:40, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    More "don't look at me" handwaving. I was not administratively warned about incivil behavior; Doc was, and kept it up anyway, while I have not, taking the warning against him as if it were mutual. I have walked away from the issue. Posting notice of an MR closure and complying with it (and correcting false statements about me) are not getting reinvolved in the issue, it's just standard operating procedure; Doc's continued ad homimem ranting about it clearly is reinvolvement in the matter as an "issue". (But "both told to stay away from the issue and let others handle it" is another misstatement of fact anyway; a non-admin suggested that we were both commenting too frequently (WP:BLUDGEON) at the MR, and should let others get their say, which both of us did. This is unrelated to the one-way warning Doc received in the previous ANI; only one user was warned in that ANI action, even if I also chose to treat it as if it applied to me as well). The "he has tried to rush it through in his favor" thrashing is yet another unsupported and unsupportable casting of aspersions. The MR ran its full course and then some; it's normal and routine to request closure, as I did at WP:ANRFC (which responded rapidly for a change), because multiple respondents to the MR wanted it closed.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  10:26, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Editor edit warring to push age limit ratings on article

    First account blocked, second account appears to have ceased editing. Everything else is arguing over a dead horse. No further action needed. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:43, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Today, PegiOfficial (talk · contribs) was created (and subsequently reported to WP:UAA, as it represents Pan European Game Information). Shortly after creation, it began attempting to add age limit ratings to video game articles Battlefield 4 and The Saboteur. These edits were reverted, based on template breaking on a discussion held quite some time ago at Template_talk:Infobox_video_game/Archive_11#Propose_removal_of_ratings_section.. The editor apparently abandoned User:PegiOfficial and began conducting the same edits under a newly created account, AManCalledJohn (talk · contribs). Despite bringing the noted discussion to this editor's attention, and despite having been reverted multiple times now, he continues to add age limit ratings from PEGI to articles [128]. I'm not going to perform any more reversions on this. Another set of eyes please. Both accounts have been informed of this discussion. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:04, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    • Of note; User:PegiOfficial has been blocked. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:15, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • (edit conflict) PegiOfficial softblocked. AManCalledJohn welcomed and notified about edit warring. --NeilN talk to me 15:18, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • The discussion was for removing ratings from the infobox template. Its really not a content decision or should be used as precedent en-masse for every videogame article. That is a decision for the talk-page of the individual articles. That was a terrible close given the strength of the arguments on either side however. Clearly age ratings *are* encyclopedic and there was evidence presented of people specifically looking for that information. I mean one of the arguments against it was 'we are not here as a guide to help people choose games for their children'... I mean really, wtf sort of rationale is that? Its an encyclopedia which contains information for people to use in any manner they see fit. Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:43, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have no stance on whether the information should be included or not, but the template discussion was about more than the template. As noted in the discussion, a rating system is acting as a guide, and not relevant unless there's secondary sources to support a reason for its inclusion. I was going off of that, not seeing a reason to disagree with it. Don't care either way, but edit warring in an attempt to force his organization's ratings into articles, especially when he has refused discussion, is not welcome. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:56, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • You didnt actually *start* a discussion. You reverted him, pointed him at an old infobox discussion and then smacked him with templates and brought it to ANI. Textbook biting the newbie. If you didnt have a stance on if the information should be included or not you should not have engaged in an edit war with him. Only in death does duty end (talk) 16:14, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • To be fair to Hammersoft, the places that this rating information was being added was either appended within the arguments of the infobox (not necessarily breaking it, but still not useful) or by itself above the TOC. And speaking for the VG project, it is not that we don't allow any mention of content ratings, but like the Film project, it becomes too much hassle for little necessary return to include all the possible ratings worldwide that a title could have; if a game's rating has discussion (as was the case for Left 4 Dead 2 for example where it prompted changes in Australia's content rating system), that's fine in the article body. That's not where this user was adding it, nor for the games listed are, to the best of my knowledge, the ratings are subject of discussion. I do think this might be a tad bitey based on a few revisions, but the lack of response by the user to these comments is not helpful either. --MASEM (t) 16:25, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I reject that it is being bitey. Contrary to Only's claims, I did attempt to initiate discussion with the user on both accounts from which he was attempting to add this information. The only templates I supposedly "smacked" him with were {{uw-coi-username}} on User talk:PegiOfficial, which is pretty much required before any action would be taken at WP:UAA, and {{ANI-notice}} at both talk pages, which is required when a person brings an issue to this board involving other editors. The editor was clearly acting in a way to directly support the organization he is associated with, and was refusing to engage in discussion despite my multiple efforts to do so. I brought this discussion here so that other eyes could review the situation and give input. If this is being bitey, then so be it. I will act in this manner again, as it is perfectly in line with best practices here unless someone can demonstrate how this violated best practices. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:51, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Between the two accounts, there are a total of 6 (visible) contributions, 3 on each. Tagging the Pegi one for username issues is fine, that's appropriate per policy, but as to what their intentions are to bring them to ANI at this point seems bitey. If they continued for another cycle of these types of edits, yeah, there's a problem. Also consider: do we have any indication that PegiOfficial was actually a person from PEGI including this stuff? --MASEM (t) 16:55, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Ok, if it was bitey what should I have done instead? Attempted conversation again, when conversation had already twice been ignored? Continued to revert? Not say anything else and just let the user continue? The user was ignoring conversation, and continuing to edit war in support of his organization. Every edit these two accounts made were (a) effectively the same and (b) referenced PEGI. WP:UAA treats such evidence as clear enough to warrant blocking if warnings have been made (which was made by me), and User:PegiOfficial was properly blocked as a username violation. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:12, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's not that "PegiOfficial" isn't a bad username (it fails username policy immediately), it's just that it seems like this is a presumption this person works for PEGI just because of the user name, and if they aren't, that's even more reason that that account should have been blocked. We also don't have direct SPI affirmation that AManCalledJohn is PegiOfficial, though certainly smells like a WP:DUCK. But lets assume they are, and even in that case, we've not hit 3RR yet on these. They are far from being disruptive, and if they are new to Wikipedia (and in the case that the person pulled PegiOfficial not realizing the username policy, even moreso to them that they are likely new here) then these look like newbie edits and the last thing to bite them for. Warn them about edit warring, yes. ANI on the PegiOfficial due to username, yes. But ANI on this behavior seems aggressive. --MASEM (t) 18:46, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • It isn't. The edits were the same and it was blatantly obvious the editor was (a) ignoring conversation, (b) acting on behalf of his company and (c) willing to continue edit warring to their preferred version. DUCK certainly applies, and we don't need an SPI case (which is already badly backlogged with open cases dating back to July) to recognize that this edit and that edit, both using the same edit summary "agelimit", both using visual editor, coming from two accounts created within half an hour of each other, are very likely one and the same person. Even the blocking admin of User:PegiOfficial noted they are the same person [129]. There is no alternative to what I did that seems viable. Maybe I could have placed {{uw-ewsoft}} on their talk pages, but I'm sure I would have been accused of more smacking him with templates (shaking my head). --Hammersoft (talk) 18:59, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Unjustified Redirect Without Discussion, Threats of (Sanctions and Block) Without Discussion

    Content discussion can continue at Talk:Awan (tribe), but OP User:Pixarh warned that continued disruption, IDHT and misrepresentation of sources will lead to sanctions. No further admin intervention needed at the moment. Abecedare (talk) 20:39, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Article Awans of Pakistan was redirected on 2nd September, 2015 [130] to Awan (tribe) by User:Sitush. I undid his revision stating on my edit summary to redirect only after discussion. I left a message on his talk page to discuss the matter before redirecting using a redirect discussion or by proposing a merger, here. He placed a false allegation on me for using ‘fake references’ and also threatened me that he would keep a look on my contributions here.

    However, he redirected again on 3rd September, 2015 [131] without discussion and then I had to leave another message on his talk page to User talk:Sitush#Awans of Pakistan where I explained that how the redirect is unjustified and he must discuss and I am even willing to help out his article as he so requested me. At the second revert I again stated in my edit summary not to redirect without discussion. He wrote a brief note on the Talk:Awans of Pakistan but I clarified his false statement to which he did not reply back. I am sure he failed to get the point and fall short of words as he redirected the 3rd time on the same day still without discussing [132]. Then he threatened me for sanctions on my talk page User talk:Pixarh#Sanctions.

    I know that I can't get dispute resolution without talk page discussion (and since the article had been redirected so had the talk page), so I followed the recommended process of Wikipedia and made Request for Discussion at the talk page of the redirect article and left a talk back message at his user page. (Here I explained each and every detail of how his redirect is unjustified to which he had to answer).

    The editor is deliberately not discussing the reason for his redirect and pointing to Wiki policies I am already aware of. He has not answered a single question posed at the Talk:Awan (tribe). To top it up, he has threatened me for a block. What should I do? He is not willing to undo his redirect and I do not want to get involved in sanctions which is why I still have not reverted his invalid redirect disruptive editing?

    Personal attacks/Accusations

    • Personal attack by threatening me for block and wikihounding my contributions here and here
    • I was accused of here using 'fake references, copy pasting from his article, etc' .

    POV editing

    • He removed references and content: [133]. For instance, he removed sources like this [134] but they have been explained to the talk page of the article and all his edit summaries fail.
    • His 3 constant redirects without discussion even after requests.[135], [136], [137]

    Suggested course of action

    • I require admin intervention and take action.
    • Editing restrictions or a ban should be imposed.
    • Should only be permitted to revert edits after consensus on talk page.
    • Ban from editing all articles I have created. I do not want to interact with such disruptive editor.

    Pixarh (talk) 16:05, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    We do not need two articles on the same subject. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:11, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    That is the entire point. The article do not duplicate each other both in terms of content and content. Awans of Pakistan is about the Muslim Awans who reside in Pakistan whereas Awan (tribe) is about a rural community with no origin. Please read this difference already explained. Also, the behaviour of the said editor is not justified in either case. Hence, need for justice required here. Pixarh (talk) 16:50, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Sigh, Yet again, please read my edit summaries for the various removals I made before deciding to redirect. Then read WP:V, WP:RS and WP:OR. Finally, read WP:IDHT because you do not seem to be getting this at all. - Sitush (talk) 16:53, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    (ec) Agreed about Superman, but the Awans of Pakistan appears to be a subtopic/split from Awan (tribe), which covers more than just Pakistan. While a merger could be contemplated, forcing replacement with a redirect against objections does not appear to be appropriate. That said, "Ban from editing all articles I have created" isn't appropriate either, per WP:OWN. A revert restriction should be limited to the narrow topic area (Awans), and temporary, if ANI went that route. Yes, Sitush disagrees with Pixarh's sourcing, but that's a talk page matter not a WP:REVTALK matter.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  16:57, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    You seem not to know what you are talking about, SMcCandlish. The Awans of Pakistan article has no reliable sources, so there is nothing to merge. I said as much, if you bother actually checking the history, the talk page etc. I do know what I'm talking about and if you want to prolong the agony of having to deal with this sort of atrocious mess then you'd better be willing to get involved in it because I'll be gone and there are very few other people with the interest and the experience. People like you are supposed to be able to spot the good guys, not make things worse for them. And I have no idea what you mean about Superman. - Sitush (talk) 17:07, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Having looked at the article in question, I have to suggest that Sitush is correct - the sourcing is atrocious, and in no way compliant with Wikipedia policy. In fact some of it appears to be simply bogus - citing Encyclopaedia Britannica articles which simply don't exist for instance. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:59, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I too agree with Andy's evaluation. @Pixarh: Did you take a look at the edit-summaries Sitush left at Awans of Pakistan and try to understand, or ask about, the specific objections instead of repeatedly reverting to a version that was poorly sourced and misrepresented the cited sources? Abecedare (talk) 17:13, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Awan (tribe) already has the maintenance tag and "lacks verification". It is a disputed article even its talk page. It s editors are already dodging the ball in each other's court as they lack authentic information. [138]....Th other article Awans of Pakistan offers wide information. both articles belong to Pakistani portal so Indian editors who lack information should not interfere in portal of pakistani-related articles. Markangle11 (talk) 17:19, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Sheesh. I can't deal with ^^ this level of incompetence and nationalism etc at the moment due to my meds. If I hang around, I will say something I will be made to regret. Let me know what happens. - Sitush (talk) 17:24, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    @Pixarh: You don't seem to get the idea that anything you add to Wikipedia must be the subject of significant coverage in reliable third party sources. Reporting an editor to this board for upholding the rules of the Encyclopedia is unlikely to get you anything other than a whack with a boomerang.  Philg88 ♦talk 17:21, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    @AndyTheGrump:Yes I saw Sitush removing reliable sources from the article and providing his POV in the edit summaries. Did you read mine? I stated to "redirect after discussion" that's all and 'twice'. However, he repeatedly reverted and redirected without discussion.[139]
    Evidence For everyone:The removed sources were reliable e.g. when he removed this [140] he said "Rose is not a reliable source)". Well, I wonder why then would have a page for this writer Horace Arthur Rose. Wikipedia also has an article for the mentioned book A Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North-West Frontier Province. Wikipedia has already established the reliability of the writer whom Sitush calls "not a reliable source" as well as that particular mentioned book otherwise Wikipedia would never have articles on either of the two. Only someone without knowledge or research would call the soruces unreliable and he would definitely not be the one 'upholding the rules of the Encyclopedia.' Pixarh (talk) 18:06, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    The existence of an article on something doesn't make it a reliable source. And can you explain why you think a link to a non-existent article in the Encyclopaedia Britannica is a valid source for anything? AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:14, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    @Pixarh: See earlier discussion at WP:RSN about Rose:1 and 2. And see this essay, which I had urged Sitush to write just to avoid this situation of having to continuously re-explain what modern scholarship has to say about these century-old sources.
    In any case, this is not a discussion for the ANI board. I would suggest that you familairize yourself with the relevant wikipedia policies, and the relevant scholarly literature before you contribute further in this area that is already subject community imposed sanctions for reasons well-demonstrated in this ANI report. Abecedare (talk) 18:37, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The Encyclopedia Britannica source removed [141] states the geographical location of the Awan Muslims amongst other people. "The main written language is Urdu, followed by English. The major ethnic groups are the Jat, Rajput, Arain, Gujar, and Awan. The caste system is gradually becoming blurred as a result of increasing social mobility, intercaste marriages, and changing public opinion." [142] Pixarh (talk) 19:28, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    How does that source support the words (can't even call it a claim), Most historians claim that the Awans of Pakistan that it was appended to? Or the complete sentence, Most historians claim that the Awans of Pakistan are the progeny of Ali Ibn Abi Talib through Qutb Shah, also known as Mir Qutb Haider. that the EB citation was adding legitimacy to? Let me be clear since you don't seem to be heeded the feedback you have received above: if you continue to misrepresent sources and edit disruptively, you will be blocked or banned from the subject area. Abecedare (talk) 20:39, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    User "Sanadate" changing character names to bogus names

    In short: Sanadate (talk · contribs) is running around changing character names to what he perceives to be the full name, e.g. Seth to Sethaniel, Paul to Paulthaniel, Adam to Adamowicz, etc.

    I first noticed this user at American Psycho (film) a few months ago, changing the name "Paul" to "Paulthaniel", etc. I reverted the user and didn't think much of it. Yesterday he changed it yet again. Looking at the edit history of the user, this seems to be something that they've been doing in different articles for several months now. The Blob (1988 film), House of Wax (2005 film), The Thing (2011 film), Wrong Turn 2: Dead End, List of Jurassic Park characters, etc.

    The user is also edit warring the above edits.

    Any attempts to communicate with the user is just meant with blanking and "Bleeping trolls. Check out wikia", "Bleeping troll", "Goddamn rules here are outta control" etc.

    Nymf (talk) 17:32, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    The user also blanked this thread. It's hard to see how repeatedly changing a character named "Wade" to "Waderick", "Waderich" and "Wadeland" could be considered to be in good faith, especially after several editors have asked them to stop. They've moved on now to articles where I can't tell if the names they're rapidly changing are fake or not, but if they are then it seems pretty obvious this user isn't here to contribute. Refusing to communicate is another red flag. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 18:20, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Alright, I will give it a rest. Just please don't block me.

    Sanadate (talk) 18:35, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Why the hell shouldn't we block you? You have clearly been vandalising articles. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:46, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Well, I'll stop. I'm sorry. I was wrong. Sanadate (talk) 18:52, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Sorry, but I see no reason whatsoever why we should trust you. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:53, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Looking at this editor's edits, I agree with Ivanvector that this isn't innocent mistakes. They have been repeatedly warned about it and yet have continued, even edit warring over it in some cases. This editor's edits should be scrutinized for other errors, whether they are intentional or unintentional. Gnome de plume (talk) 19:54, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I was cleaning up his edits when I was struck by a rather idiosyncratic change. In this diff, he changes a fictional character's name from "Kyle" to "Kylerick" in a horror film. Puzzled as to why he would do that, I did a Google search on "Kylerick". That brought up this change in another horror film, made by Wooeyparks (talk · contribs). Looking further, I saw that Wooeyparks was blocked for disruption and a long-term abuse case was opened about him. The evidence that this is a sock of the LTA case seems pretty strong to me. I mean, who else on Wikipedia would go through direct-to-video horror films and change "Kyle" to "Kylerick"? NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 22:31, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I've blocked the account as a likely sock of Wooeyparks; two unrelated editors making the same bizarre hoax edits from the same town and ISP belies belief. I would have blocked the account even without the technical evidence as sneaky vandalism such as this takes up far too much time from helpful editors who are trying to improve the encyclopedia. Unfortunately the account has 1600 edits under their belt that will need review.--Jezebel's Ponyobons mots 23:15, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Is it necessary to research every one of his edits to see if it is correct? For instance[143] he adds nicknames or "real" first names to the characters' nicknames in movies and cites it to the movie credits. This would require finding the movie and viewing it to verify the character's name. Also he changed the status of many films, such as "filming" to "post production." How about just rolling back all edits? We would lose some which are correct and some which are plausible but difficult to verify. Edison (talk) 00:07, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I think maybe he was more of a time-sink for good-faith editors than he was a danger to the veracity of the encyclopedia. Some of his edits, such as changing "filming" to "post-production", are so subtle that even if they were vandalism, they probably don't even matter in the grand scheme of things. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 03:49, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Why don't we just rollback any of their edits that are current? There's a pretty decent chance they are all bogus, and they are all block evasion anyway. I don't know if mass-rollback allows for edits which have already been corrected, and this user has been editing for quite a while. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 13:46, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    That seems like a prudent thing to do. A quick survey of this user's edits suggest that a majority of them are unconstructive and some are outright falsification/vandalism. Gnome de plume (talk) 19:47, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    This user has returned as 2600:1017:B408:EB9C:98B7:448D:C65A:7595 (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) Gnome de plume (talk) 19:47, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Taunting at 3RRN

    Some admin please take a look and stop this. Thanks.--TMCk (talk) 21:00, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Classic WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. AlbinoFerret 02:53, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Classic WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT by whom? QuackGuru (talk) 02:54, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    That you ask that question says more than anything I could say. AlbinoFerret 03:06, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I asked you a direct question, yet you are unable to provide a specific response. Can you try to be specific? Thank you. QuackGuru (talk) 03:14, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    The AN3 request mentioned is quite a mess. First of all, I see no talk page discussion on Fat embolism, nor much of one on Hypocalcaemia (CFCF did post one here). The diffs provided, as well as the history of both articles, don't show a gross violation of 3RR. However, seeing no talk page discussion on either article is concerning. Looking at the evidence, I believe that there was, but I do not believe that any action is required at this time so long as a discussion is started on each talk page before any more reverts are made to either article by either user.

    Looking at this AN3 from a taunting/arguing perspective: When Ozzie10aaaa was confronted about the possibility of restoring primary sources against WP:MEDRS, he avoided answering the question when asked to clarify, and even resorted to discrediting QuackGuru by mentioning his block log, when asked repeatedly to review his article reversions. QuackGuru, despite being given the same answer multiple times, continued to keep pressing, asking over and over, when it was clear that Ozzie10aaaa didn't want to interact with him or answer his questions, and instead wanted an uninvolved administrator to review the AN3 discussion. QuackGuru - I think it's time to step away from that discussion and discuss your concerns on the article's talk page. Your consistent poking at Ozzie10aaaa in that discussion is obviously not going to get you the answer you're looking for. Ozzie10aaaa - Instead of resorting to the argument methods that you did, remember that it's best to focus on content. ~Oshwah~ (talk) (contribs) 08:03, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    • Reading over that "discussion," it sounds like both of them could use a good trout slap. It reads like the bickering of children: "You answer first." "No, you answer first." "Nuh-uh, I asked first." "Well, I'm not gonna answer you." "I want an answer!" Etc. Ravenswing 08:07, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Now thats funny, and anyone with more than one child can see the similarities.AlbinoFerret 14:11, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah. Without touching the merits of anyone's argument, they're both acting uncivilly. Ravenswing 15:21, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Please revoke talk page access

    C.Fred has revoked the user's talk page access (non-admin closure) Snuggums (talk / edits) 03:33, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Please revoke talk page access at User talk:Codedlox. Some rev deleting would help as well.- MrX 21:29, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Thanks C.Fred. - MrX 21:41, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Captcha

    Can anyone successfully create a new account on Wikipedia? The CAPTCHA appears to be broken, though that may just be my computer.

    I wanted to have a look at how we introduce new users nowadays - I've been a member long enough I haven't seen any of the new stuff. Thought the best way forwards, since the Wikipedia Adventure thing seems to post a lot of stuff was to make a new account, then ask for it to be deleted afterwards. I wasn't expecting a major bug. 86.149.118.126 (talk) 02:04, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    The CAPTCHA seems to work fine for me. If you're still having issues with it, you can request an account be created for you by following this guide. ~Oshwah~ (talk) (contribs) 02:13, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Resolved

    Sigmund Freud

    Hello, sorry if this isn't the right place to put this, but a sockpuppet of blocked user User:Kingshowman named User:FearlessTruthTeller recently edited Sigmund Freud, providing a rough explanation of the Oedipus complex [144]. Soon after, User:FreeKnowledgeCreator reverted his edits, only on the grounds of sockpuppetry [145]. I reverted their edits, claiming that they were beneficial to the article, only to be reverted by both FreeKnowledgeCreator and User:Jim1138 [146] [147] [148]. My question for you all is, should the edit be allowed? While it may defy WP:DENY and may be from a sockpuppet, the edit isn't vandalism, and thus I believe that the edit should be upheld. Thank you. --Chevvin (talk) 02:11, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    The edit was part of a pattern of disruptive editing by User:Kingshowman and should be disallowed on those grounds alone. Kingshowman has consistently shown poor judgement about what sort of material is appropriate to the leads of articles. This really isn't ANI-worthy material. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 02:21, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    On the contrary, this is absolutely ANI-worthy. It's obvious that both of us have different views on the edit, and our attempts at working it out through talking have seemed to failed. --Chevvin (talk) 02:26, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Chevvin - I agree that the edit was not vandalism. But, instead of reverting, why not just edit the page and manually add that article content back yourself :-)? It'll satisfy WP:DENY (since the edit will be from you, not the sock) and the contribution will stay on the article. I really don't think that an ANI is absolutely needed here. ~Oshwah~ (talk) (contribs) 02:27, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    If I did manually edit the page, it would be reverted by FreeKnowledgeCreator instantly, and he would have no reason not to. If he can undo my revert, what's stopping them from reverting my edit? --Chevvin (talk) 02:33, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    No Chevvin, this is a routine content disagreement that you should have first discussed at the talk page of Sigmund Freud - as I requested. The only possible reason for raising any of these issues on ANI is to get the latest Kingshowman sockpuppet blocked promptly. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 02:31, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    FreeKnowledgeCreator and Jim1138 - What is your basis or proof that this user is a sockpuppet? FreeKnowledgeCreator, your edit summary on this edit only says that you are "very familiar with this user". Jim1138, you also reverted an edit saying that the user is a "blocked sock" - I don't see a WP:SPI filed for this user, and FearlessTruthTeller is definitely not a "blocked sock". ~Oshwah~ (talk) (contribs) 02:52, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    His connection with Kingshowman was immediately apparent from the edits he made at Sigmund Freud, and with all respect, Oshwah, he effectively admitted to being a sock at the requests for article protection page, before denying he was a sock here. I provided a link to the de facto admission below. De facto admissions of socking seem to be this user's style, as witness the comments by the sock account Parrhesiast at its talk page. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 03:00, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you, FreeKnowledgeCreator. I just now read the discussion below. To address the root of the ANI discussion: Chevvin - just edit the page and add the content manually (so long as the content itself is not disputed). If there's proof of socking, then it should go into a SPI case to be investigated. In normal circumstances, reverting edits made by accounts evading blocks or bans, or edits made in violation of such bans do not count against 3RR. However, there's no WP:SPI; the account has not yet been appropriately determined to be a sock. I think we just need to choose our battles here and evaluate priorities. ~Oshwah~ (talk) (contribs) 03:07, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Oshwah, I understand that you are trying to be even-handed, but the evidence that the account is Kingshowman is overwhelming at this stage. Why do you think a not-yet-blocked account would talk about the reason it got blocked, referring to a past dispute in doing so? Not blocking the user right away is only delaying the inevitable. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 03:10, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Hi, FreeKnowledgeCreator - I think my timing got mixed up in edit conflicts earlier, so I'll explain here. You are 100% correct; I didn't see your edit diff below until after my previous response. Self admission is pretty much a slam dunk as far as proof goes. I wanted to make sure that the root of this ANI was discussed, in that manually adding the material back to the Sigmund Freud article would satisfy WP:DENY and avoid an edit war. Since there was proof of socking, the reverts were legitimate. I apologize if I created any confusion. ~Oshwah~ (talk) (contribs) 03:23, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Can we get an admin notice going on FreeKnowledgeCreator, for attempting to act as the dictator of the Sigmund Freud, Martin Heidegger, and Friedrich Nietzsche pages? This guy pursues personal grudges above encyclopedic content! The user in question, whom I have no relation to, was only banned for making fun of FreeKnowledgeCreator, playfully. All of his edits were constructive, as you may also have found out purely by researching, as I did. Thanks for reading, friends!FearlessTruthTeller (talk) 02:40, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    See this edit by the editor above, where he effectively admits to being Kingshowman ("I am not "disruptive" or a vandal- the only reason I even got blocked is because I said you'd never read Heidegger and later you admitted I was right and you hadn't read Being and Time"). The editor's comment above shows that he can't even keep his story straight. Wikipedia needs to stop indulging him and follow the good advice at WP:RBI. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 02:49, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Who can even recall what those users were even blocked for, and this user has only been productive! Let us give the fearless speaking of truth a chance. These edits are plainly constructive, and therefore the true vandals are they who revert them. Sometimes, serving the Truth is difficult. FreeKnowledgeCreator must someday Learn the hardest lesson of all: to put his love for knowledge above his petty personal animuses. I trust you will do the right thing. FearlessTruthTeller (talk) 02:52, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    That user is Kingshowman and needs an immediate block. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 02:59, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    FearlessTruthTeller blocked as a sock. --NeilN talk to me 03:10, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Thank you, NeilN. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 03:12, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    User:NeilN - Thank you for seeing through the haze of confusion that I probably contributed to above and for taking quick and appropriate action on that account. Now that this matter is taken care of, Chevvin - do you still have any questions or concerns regarding the initial reason that you opened this discussion? Or can we go ahead and close this? ~Oshwah~ (talk) (contribs) 03:27, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Not any more. As long as FKC doesn't revert the edit, which we've generally agreed upon to be constructive, I think that we can leave this topic to rest. --Chevvin (talk) 03:42, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wait up. We're not closing anything until FreeKnowledgeCreator comes clean: did you, FKC, or did you not read Sein und Zeit? And if you didn't, what makes you think you're good enough to even make routine edits to Meghan Traynor articles here? We have standards, you know, and as true Heideggerians Bishonen, Favonian, and I can make your life a living hell. So get to reading--and not in translation, lazybones. Dzjerman only! Drmies (talk) 03:31, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • I assume your comment is meant to be humorous, Drmies. Personally I find it an ill-judged attempt at humor. Kingshowman accused me of being an ignoramus who has not read either Heidegger or Freud. I have no interest in hiding what I do or don't know. I admitted on the Heidegger talk page that the only Heidegger I have read is Introduction to Metaphysics (in contrast, I count myself reasonably familiar with Freud). Other admins can let me know whether there are any serious issues here. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 03:43, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    The content may be restored by any editor in good standing editing in good faith. Once that happens, 3RR exemptions no longer apply. However if the material itself is under dispute or adds little to the article then the talk page should be used first. --NeilN talk to me 03:36, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    The material definitely is under dispute; I don't consider it a good addition. Chevvin needs to discuss the matter on the talk page of the Freud article, as I originally requested. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 03:50, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    NB, Kingshowman is still at it, now editing as User:EminentScholar. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 05:10, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • @FreeKnowledgeCreator: you cannot just claim WP:DENY in an edit war and expect to be immune from WP:EW if you fail to pursue your claims in the proper forum (SPI). That is just not how it works. Even if you feel the evidence is overwhelming, even if you feel you're unequivocally right, you either handle the accusation appropriately or refrain from making it. Not doing this and choosing to "DENY-revert" the edits instead still disrupts the project and creates unnecessary drama for everyone (as evidenced by this very thread). Furthermore, if a different editor re-adds the content, you cannot legitimately remove it per DENY. If DENY is the only reason you're citing for reverting a third editor who has stepped in, the action is tantamount to an unexplained revert since your rationale is inapplicable. Please keep this in mind should the situation arise again. Swarm ♠ 05:31, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The first edit by brand new editor EminentScholar was to restore an edit made by a Kingshowman sock. Respectfully, how likely do you think it is that the account is not another Kingshowman sock? In the (unlikely) event its not a Kingshowman sock, it would be a meatpuppet. It's quite common to point out obvious socks at ANI, so why the anger? You might also have noticed that this thread was not started by me, but by another editor, so why would you accuse me of creating unnecessary drama? FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 05:40, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The issue has nothing to do with whether or not you're right about sockpuppets or meatpuppets. The complaint was that you also reverted editors who *weren't*. And again, if you think there's obviously sock or meat puppetry going on, just start an SPI. Swarm ♠ 06:10, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    If it's an obvious WP:DUCK case, you can also bring it here or grab an active admin. SPI can become backlogged. --NeilN talk to me 06:15, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I had assumed that Swarm's comment was a response to my posting about EminentScholar; I see now that it wasn't (I misunderstood, but Swarm's comment was very confusing). My reverting Chevvin at Sigmund Freud was an example of the routine disagreements between editors that occur all the time, and I did not invoke WP:DENY as a reason for it. I'm currently trying to discuss the matter at the article's talk page. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 06:25, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    This looks more or less resolved to me, anyway. John Carter (talk) 14:51, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I think this matter is resolved as well. ~Oshwah~ (talk) (contribs) 16:29, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Resolved

    User:Burst of unj

    Topic-banned from any page, in any namespace, related to Alan Kurdi. Black Kite (talk) 20:52, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    This single-purpose account has been already dragged to this noticeboard. Currently, they disrupt Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nilüfer Demir by commenting every vote and repeating the same argument for the tenth time despite multiple warnings. It is time for them to be blocked or at least to be topic-banned from that page. Whatever they had to say, they already said.--Ymblanter (talk) 14:14, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Certainly rather bizarre behaviour- a bit OCD- but not particularly disruptive. As long as the !votes are easilly identifiable, that's the thing. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 14:53, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Support topic ban I disagree that their behavior in the AfDs hasn't been disruptive (thanks to their incessant comments, the pages are a mess), and would be interested to know under which account(s) they've previously edited here. Not blockworthy yet IMO, but they're getting close. Miniapolis 15:06, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment I'm moving somewhat against my will to a similar conclusion: now that they've been (however well-intentioned) refactoring others' TP comments. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 15:17, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support topic ban. I agree a very limited topic ban from this AfD is in order. They're clearly bludgeoning the process, and they're somewhat obsessed with making sure the vote count is accurate to the point of refactoring the comments of other editors: [149]. I tried explaining that the vote count doesn't really matter, but they're just not getting it. Additionally, they've attempted to vote in the discussion three times. In related discussions, they've attempted to reassign the votes of others, claiming their rationale better supports something different than what they've voted: [150]. This is already an AfD with an above average number of votes on a highly visible subject. Continued involvement by this editor is only making it harder to reach consensus and then parse what that consensus is. They've said their piece, and I thank them for that, but it's time to step away. If the editor cannot make that decision themselves, then a topic ban is the solution we have left. ~ RobTalk 15:14, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I don't think that a topic ban is necessary. It should be used as a last resort and after repeated administrative action has failed to correct the behavior; Burst of unj hasn't even been blocked before. I agree that this user has edit warred, I think that his edits to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nilüfer Demir can be seen as disruptive per WP:LISTEN, but I do not agree that his edits to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nilüfer Demir have been uncivil towards anyone (the only edit that I saw that was aimed at another editor and somewhat uncivil is this). I think that a block for 24 hours for edit warring and WP:DISRUPT is justified. ~Oshwah~ (talk) (contribs) 15:30, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Redacted some of my statements above per discussion below. ~Oshwah~ (talk) (contribs) 16:12, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    That wasn't very uncivil in any case; and the 3RR report is probably timed-out by now. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 15:42, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • Why block from the entire project when a very limited ban on editing a single page suffices? Topic bans are typically considered a higher "tier" than a block due to their long-lasting nature and wide scope, but the proposed ban here is on a single discussion that will close within the next few days. In this case, the ban from editing this single page is less restrictive than a block of any duration. ~ RobTalk 15:39, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    (Edit Conflict) Hi, Rob - you make a very valid argument. You are correct; there's no "requirements" that must be met before a ban can be discussed and enforced by the community. If the ban is limited to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nilüfer Demir, I'd support it. ~Oshwah~ (talk) (contribs) 16:11, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    He's been rambling about facedown eyes and surf dragging on the Alan Kurdi Talk Page, too. I don't pretend to know what he's trying to say, but it feels like veiled mudslinging. InedibleHulk (talk) 16:08, September 12, 2015 (UTC)
    The eye obsession persists at Alan Kurdi's article space. InedibleHulk (talk) 18:00, September 12, 2015 (UTC)
    Huh. Interesting! Although not (yet?) particularly disruptive there. And clearly, a topic ban from Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nilüfer Demir would not help with that. --Ashenai (talk) 18:07, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Obviously, a topic ban would be around anything to do with Alan Kurdi and related articles, Nilüfer Demir being one. That latter article will most likely be kept, and given his continued disruptive actions on the Kurdi article after the close, he will most likely continue this pattern. A topic ban is the least we should consider. freshacconci talk to me 18:13, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support topic ban It's been on multiple pages including Alan Kurdi where he continues to be disruptive an POV push. He changes other editors' comments, and the endless responding to every comment is beyond a nuisance. A topic ban is enough; if he continues on to other articles in the same manner, a block would be necessary. Hardly a waste of time, BTW. This comment took me about 30 seconds to write. freshacconci talk to me 18:02, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Case in point: within five minutes of me !voting to keep at an AFD, his response came in as expected. I am treating him as a troll at this point and won't be feeding him. freshacconci talk to me 18:05, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah, that's about a clear an admission of trollful obstinance I've seen since an actual Norwegian troll wagged his finger in my goat's face and went "Nyah, I'm not touching you! I'm not touching you! You can't legally bite me!". But that was just a myth. InedibleHulk (talk) 18:30, September 12, 2015 (UTC)
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Skamecrazy123 (Moved)

    Comment - @203.173.186.163: Moved to the correct place. --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 20:07, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I can't leave a msg on the User:Skamecrazy123 talk page. Some of the recent reverts being done by the editor are wrong and are unexplained. 203.173.186.163 (talk) 19:43, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    It's protected from vandals. And what exactly were you adding to the articles that I reverted, hmm?--Skamecrazy123 (talk) 19:44, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    In one case I fixed a link that you broke and for the email client article I cleaned it up a bit. 203.173.186.163 (talk) 19:47, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Why didn't you explain that in the edit summary, instead of wasting my time dragging me here? It didn't look like you were cleaning it up at all, hence the revert. --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 19:51, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I explained one of my reasons in a hidden comment in the edit (which you should have noticed), and the rest of it should have been obvious. To say it is wasting your time is a spurious argument. I could say that you are wasting my time. Also, the quality of your edits had to be raised. If I saw two problematic edits in such a short space of time in=t calls into question all of you other edits. 203.173.186.163 (talk) 19:55, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    This is another bad edit from Skamecrazy123. 203.173.186.163 (talk) 19:58, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    And the editor is not very collegial. 203.173.186.163 (talk) 20:11, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Another recent poor quality edit. 203.173.186.163 (talk) 20:13, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    That's hilarious. Seriously, I am laughing my ass off here. Thanks for the laugh. --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 20:25, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm sorry, but I don't see what is funny. 203.173.186.163 (talk) 20:32, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    This whole farce. I'm out. --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 20:36, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't see it as farcical at all. I am just trying to sort it out. 203.173.186.163 (talk) 20:43, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Good for you. Let me know how it works out for you. --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 20:44, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    But I cannot do that since I cannot edit your talk page. 203.173.186.163 (talk) 20:47, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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