Talk:Kurds in the United Kingdom

Department for Communities and Local Government

According to page 35 of the report: "The Kurdish community in the UK is estimated to be about 50,000, among which Iraqi Kurds make up the largest group, exceeding the numbers from Turkey and Iran. Iraqi Kurds in the UK are a diverse group religiously – predominantly Sunni, but also Shi’a and secular. They are reported by respondents to be the most highly marginalized group within the Iraqi diaspora. Respondents also suggested that there are some ethnic divisions in London between Arabs and Kurds and that the Iraqi Kurdish community remains relatively separated from the other Iraqi communities, though on an individual basis Iraqi Kurds may mix with Iraqis of Arab origin. For Iraqi Muslim Kurds in London the tendency to be marginalised by the Iraqi community is still a major problem and is reported to reflect its experience in Iraq.

This keeps being changed by a user to: Kurdish community in the UK is about 250,000[1] , among which Iraqi Kurds make up the largest group, exceeding the numbers from Turkey and Iran.

Cleary the DCG does not say this. Pease may users ensure that this manipulation does not continue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.157.235.119 (talk) 21:06, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

May users also note that footnote one which the user has placed to "support" 250,000 actually says:

""The local authorities of Hackney and Haringey...estimate the figures to be around 25,000 and 30,000 respectively, but it is acknowledged that these are just estimates rather than accurate figures."

Hence, again, these source does not backup the statement being made either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.157.235.119 (talk) 21:13, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

The article is black washed

Kurdish articles are black washed and some users have added a new "Issues section" to all Kurdish articles and explained some specific honour killings with details. I checked British Turks, British Pakistanis, British Indian and other different people in western countries, they haven't added such sections even though some of them have similar issues and even much worse. Also, honour killing is not an issue among Diaspora Kurds, if some individuals commit crimes, it doesn't mean it's an issue among that ethnicity. You need strong and reliable source for such claim. Ferakp (talk) 21:06, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

There are plenty of sources that establish that honour killings are particularly prevalent in the Kurdish diaspora. See, for instance, this report. There are also Kurdish NGOs that have tried to address this problem, which could be mentioned in the article. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:28, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

@Cordless Larry: None of your sources say that it is prevalent/issue in the Kurdish diaspora. The sources says:

The conclusions of the study were that honour-based violence manifested in broadly similar ways for Kurdish communities in both Kurdistan Region and the UK. This doesn't mean that it is prevalent or an issue for Kurdish people in the United Kingdom. Let me be more clear, ..manifested in broadly similar ways.. doesn't mean it is an issue in the United Kingdom. Also, I don't think there would be any sources which could say that it is an issue among Kurdish people in the United Kingdom. There are Kurds from 4 different countries, different languages, different cultures and even identity. This article is related to the all Kurds in the UK. As I said before, I checked British Turks, British Pakistanis, British Indian. I can tell you that honour killings occur much more among British Pakistanis and Indians than the Kurds (check statistics), however, that still doesn't mean that it is an significant issue to mention here in the Wikipedia. You need a strong and reliable source which says that honour killings are significant issues among the Kurdish population in the United Kingdom and that it is prevalent in the Kurdish diaspora. Comparing 17 registered honour killings to 1.5 million Diaspora Kurdish population, it would be hilarious if any study claims that it is an issue and prevalent. Your edits were clearly violating WP:ORIGINAL. I encourage you to read British Turks, British Pakistanis and British Indian articles and honour killings/reports about those people. Then come to explain me, why those articles don't contain similar "issue" sections, even though it is much worse/wider problem among them.Ferakp (talk) 01:49, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Let me repeat again, you need a source to confirm that it is an issue/significant/prevalent among all Kurds of the UK.Ferakp (talk) 01:52, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

The source says that "[h]onour-based violence remains prevalent in Kurdish communities in different locations". It doesn't need to be an issue for each and every Kurd in the UK - if that was the standard, then we couldn't say much at all in the article. Cordless Larry (talk) 04:54, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

@Cordless Larry: What makes you think that the UK is one of those locations and isn't just a country they compared? You are writing some serious things here. Just imagine, how it would look like if I start to write about alcoholism, drug and other problems of British people in the US. The article will be full of things we don't need to mention, even though it's not an issue for each British. Here, you have given exact details of crimes and showed it as an issue. You need sources for such claim and as I said, read other articles. There are tons of studies about those people and honour crimes among them. Still, those articles don't talk about it. It's not an issue. Ferakp (talk) 05:00, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, but if you don't think it is an issue then you are in denial about what reliable sources say about the problem. The study is specifically about the Kurdish diaspora in the UK. I have added an additional scholarly source to the article, which discusses the prevalence of honour killings and Kurdish women's NGOs' attempts to highlight and combat the problem. Cordless Larry (talk) 05:31, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Sigh, Wikipedia:Other stuff exists and WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not a valid argument. You yourself have edited the Integration_issues section of the Turks in Germany article! And the section should also be called the same. --176.127.213.144 (talk) 12:14, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Yes, it's rather odd that you would object to this material about Kurds, when you yourself added this to Turks_in_Germany, Ferakp. Cordless Larry (talk) 12:25, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Let me repeat again, please, show me a source for your claims, which you have added to this article. You need a reliable and strong source, which says that it is an issue. Don't try to change the topic, this has nothing to do with the edit: this. That edit has multiple sources and it clearly and directly says what I wrote to the article. There are tons of articles about unusual rape statistics among Turks in Germany, which I didn't add because it's not an issue. I would like to kindly ask you to revert your changes. Ferakp (talk) 13:32, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Please see the sources cited in Kurds in the United Kingdom#Integration issues, which include the report mentioned above and a peer-reviewed journal article. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:42, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

@Cordless Larry: You have filled 1/3 of the article with honour killing issues. You have added specific details of random honour crimes and showed honour killings as an issue. This is nothing else than black washing the article. I have repeatedly asked you to show sources which say it is an issue/prevalent among the Kurds in the UK, but still you haven't come with any sources which say it is a significant issue and prevalent among the Kurds in UK. I read your sources and I know about the topic well, however, it's not an issue which you could mention here and fill 1/3 of the article with its details. As I said, honour killings are more common among Pakistanis and Indians, but still they haven't been seen as issues for those people in the UK. It's serious claim if you say it is an issue for specific ethnicity or people. I read all your sources, but still none of your sources confirm that it is prevalent and an issue for the Kurds in the UK. You are using specific crimes, reports about similarity of crimes and statistics, but they can't be used to show it as an issue for the Kurds in the UK. If you are trying to prove it with your current sources, it will violate WP:ORIGINAL (WP:SYNTH). I read the report and a peer-reviewed journal article, again, none of them confirm and say it is an issue and prevalent among the Kurds in the UK. I personally don't see any problems with your edits, they, however, belong toKurdish women or honour killing articles, not the article like this, as other users have done in case British Pakistanis and British Indian. This article is about all Kurds, Kurds of Turkey, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Azerbaijan, Cyprus, Lebanon etc. Your section would be better in Kurdish women and I don't see any problem if you transfer them all to Kurdish women article to the Diaspora section.

I am still waiting you to show me sources which say it is prevalent and an issue among the Kurds in the UK. Ferakp (talk) 16:08, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

I did not introduce the material in the first instance, so I think you have the wrong person. I just added some nuance and detail to what was already there. The killings are not "random" - one was the first legally recognised honour killing in the UK and the other was the subject of a film. You keep asking for sources and I keep pointing to the sources that I have added, and that you say you have read. Both the report and the journal article make clear that this is a significant issue, as do Kurdish women's NGOS campaigning on the matter. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:26, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

@Cordless Larry: Only one of your source mentions it as an issue, but it doesn't say it is an issue among the Kurds in the UK. Just because Iranian and Kurdish women right organization talk about it and see it is an issue in the UK or generally doesn't mean it is in an issue among the Kurds or Iranians in the UK. I read all of your sources except the latest one which I don't have access. The user 176.127.213.14 who came to blame me and continuously is the same user who is black washing the Kurdish articles and adding honour relating things all articles, his IP location is always Switzerland. I am requesting permission to transfer your sources and details to the Kurdish women article, are you ok with this? I am going to leave some usual information like that there is discrimination and there have been reported honour killings among the Kurds in the UK and give a reference to Kurdish women. Ferakp (talk) 16:44, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, which one is "the latest one"? Cordless Larry (talk) 18:22, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

@Cordless Larry: The 14th reference: Gill, Aisha (2009). "Honor Killings and the Quest for Justice in Black and Minority Ethnic Communities in the United Kingdom".Ferakp (talk) 18:26, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

That's the journal article. Above, you said "I read the report and a peer-reviewed journal article". Have you read it or not? Cordless Larry (talk) 18:28, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

@Cordless Larry: I have read/reviewed 12-13, 15-18 and 19th sources. The source you mentioned in your reply[1] is the 15th source of the article. If you mean those sources and articles, yes, I have read them. I read only the mentioned section in "A piece of white silk" book.Ferakp (talk) 18:40, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Oppose. The topic of HBV (Honor based violence) is notable, at least as relavant as Nigerians_in_the_Netherlands#Crime or Turks_in_Germany#Integration_problems. Other users have said Ferakp is behaving like in a marketplace and trying to hide HBV from Kurds in articles. This is the same user that added this to Turks_in_Germany, and opposes HBV information here. --176.127.213.144 (talk) 18:44, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

@Cordless Larry: Please check the contributions of Ferakp. He is doing the same vandalism to other articles too, not just this one! --176.127.213.144 (talk) 13:48, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

@176.127.213.144: Before accusing me of vandalism, check my contributions and how many users like you have tried to report me but have been banned themselves in the end. Ferakp (talk) 14:00, 20 May 2016 (UTC)