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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 77.46.207.9 (talk) at 01:46, 24 November 2016 (→Harassment site on sh.wiki: War games?!). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

    Harassment site on sh.wiki

    Hi Jimbo, I am sorry to take your precious time. I would like just to ask you is that normal for Wikipedia to have such offensive article [1][2] madding "Humor" abuses, offences, and mockery about Macedonians and the stateRepublic of Macedonia, and not only offending Macedonians but Greeks, as well. Can someone, please, delete or remove that harassment site. Can anyone ban creators of that site. Thanks! Regards! 77.234.44.147 (talk) 15:54, 13 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    • The IP raises an excellent point. This is a "humorous" article in Wikipedia space on the Serbo-Croat Wikipedia, which unless I've missed some incredibly subtle humour (unlikely, knowing the relationship between the countries) is basically an insulting screed against Macedonia and Macedonians. Apparently the country only exists "because of a conspiracy between the United Nations in cooperation with the Wikimedia Foundation", the inhabitants are mostly overweight, and their most famous athlete is a dog. The article is unsurprisingly regularly vandalised, but is restored and protected by sh.wiki admins. Someone with the appropriate permissions needs to get this gone, and have a wor with the admins involved. Black Kite (talk) 17:19, 13 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Hi, I agree and I would also add here national symbol insults involved, as on national coat of arms (Greek one), national flag (modified war Japanese flag), national anthem (allegedly "bread and chutney"), national motto(allegedly "killing"!!??), name o the people ("Janevistanians"), than capital of the state (allegedly Greek city of Thessaloniki), etc. For example national macedonian motto contain a threat "You will be killed",and so on. Libertarian Macedonian (talk) 20:47, 13 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    So Macedonian are able to produce and export only chutney, and nothing else as "National anthem "Bread and chutney" suggests Macedonian were good only for making paper and potato(s)? All Janevistanians (Macedonians) were copies of Igor Janev?? Pollution in Macedonian city of Delcevo was that bad, so I.J. is nervous? Japanese flag suggesting Japanese fighting dogs? Or, between the lines of translation, all Macedonians were "Dogs of the war"??77.234.45.153 (talk) 12:01, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I can't read any of it and for some reason Google Translate appears down from here at the moment. So I can only comment on the principle, which is really all the matters here. There is no reason for any offensive humor to exist in any place on any Wikimedia projects at any time. This is always true, but especially true in areas and places that have to to with insults on national cultures in parts of the world where sensitivities due to past and recent conflict is high.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:16, 13 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    The Wikilink is sh:User:Orijentolog/Janevistan; it's a user's private subpage. When you think about the magnitude of abuses by administrators on many of the small wikis who block would-be editors and impose bias in article space, I think that it would be absolutely a terrible precedent to go after the Serbo-Croatian Wiki because they don't censor user pages according to American standards of political correctness. Their welcome message to me as a user says that you can post on some of their forums in English, and you are free to mount the bully pulpit if you want, but please, don't go beyond that. Wnt (talk) 22:39, 13 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Wnt, as usual on this and similar issues, you are wrong. Wikipedia need not tolerate nasty behavior, ever. "American standards of political correctness" is a silly thing to say in this context. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, worldwide. The values of Wikipedia are universal.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:42, 13 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    In may opinion, Wikipedia should apply some universally accepted standards. Insults on national symbols are prohibited in every state in the world and in the International Law. At least Wiki rules should apply [3]. Furthermore, there were threats such as "You will be killed" (Geslo: "Bićeš ubijen!")that were absolutely unacceptable. I should also mention that after protest of Macedonian administrator [4]] Ehrlich91, that hate speach was clearly insult to the all Macedonians, nothing happened. Regards. Libertarian Macedonian (talk) 23:30, 13 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    "Insults on national symbols are prohibited in every state in the world and in the international law" - this is 100% false and 100% irrelevant.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:40, 13 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Dear Jimmy, whatever you decide is fine with me. If this admins. on sh.wiki think that Macedonians are fat and stupid or primitive its ok. Thank you for your precious time. Forgive me for any inconvenience. Best wishes!Libertarian Macedonian (talk) 23:48, 13 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    P.S. I thought that the burning or tearing or damaging of the USA flag is punishable by US the law, according to the US Constitution. Libertarian Macedonian (talk) 00:06, 14 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Nope. Burning is considered the appropriate mechanism for disposal of old and damaged flags. The Boy Scouts of America burn more flags than all the Muslims in the world combined. Guy (Help!) 00:52, 14 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Flag desecration in the United States was formerly banned by unconstitutional legislation. The Supreme Court has upheld not merely the physical act of burning a flag but the right to deface and destroy it as an expression of personal contempt or for any other reason. This wise ruling has, incidentally, caused flag desecration to go from being frequent national news to something that is almost unheard of, because without the prosecutions, people simply don't care - and if they don't care, there is little reason to bother. Wnt (talk) 12:42, 14 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    As for the Flag of Vergina Sun /Alexander the Grate Flag (in "Janevistan" presented under label: "Coat of Arms", as a provocation to Macedonians), it should be remembered that Greece because of that Flag started the catastrophic Trade War against Macedonia in 1994 and 1995, and reported that as "flagrant violation of the international law" to the UN Security Council. During that painful period for Macedonia, as a result of the trade blockade and sanctions introduced by Greece state, salaries and wages in Macedonia were fallen to the level of less than 50 dollars per month! Relations between the to state were than closest to the war, and relations didn't normalize until Macedonia had accepted to change its Flag (Flag of Vergina Sun). Now, sh.wikipedia editors, made mockery for the period of deepest economic crises in Macedonian history, by deliberately putting Vergina Sun Flag in the place "Coat of Arms" of Macedonia/Janevistan! Such accusations of stealing national symbols from other states, are taken very seriously both in Macedonia and in Greece. Further, in the text you may found that Macedonian were constantly stealing other people symbols (presented there in the oppositional form: "neighbors had stolen Macedonian symbols") and Macedonian state always "destroyed" other cultures, operating on principle (according to sh.wiki editors): "Demolish and bury it" (sh."sruši i zakopaj")! Thanks!5.45.62.149 (talk) 11:58, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Plus, there is no science in Macedonia (sh. "Istorijska nauka makedonologija je danas zvanično poznata i kao arheologija.") The only science in the country is digging in the past!? So the conclusion for reader should be that, according to SH., there is/was no science or scientists in the Republic of Macedonia, except experts for rewriting and falsifying history!?

    5.45.62.166 (talk) 05:32, 18 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Or this "varvarina koji su hteli da zatru sve makedonsko, pa su joj pokrali jezik, ime, nacionalne simbole i svetske velikane", basically all Macedonian culture was stolen by Barbarians, so there is no now any Culture at all!?5.45.62.166 (talk) 05:43, 18 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Jimbo was 100% correct when stating that national symbols were not protected by the International Law ("Insults on national symbols are prohibited in every state in the world and in the international law" - this is 100% false). Also, State names cannot be the subject of forgery or theft (stealing), and states cannot be deprived from their names or externally (and internally) imposed on them, and state name as such couldn’t affect the different historical interpretation. States do not have exclusive rights over the state names, and couldn’t be subject to the imposition of negotiations on that type of matters , even by the UN. What was fanny to me in the “Janevistan”, but probably not to the Macedonians, was that allegedly leading ideologist teaches Macedonians that “Macedonian world” is “Good” one and surrounded by Evil or “non-Macedonian world”, but that “Evil” (or non-Macedonians) must exist beside Macedonians (“Good”) because other vise Macedonians wouldn’t be able (presumably as higher beings) to define their identity or themselves! According to sh. Editors, creator of this type of Racist ideology was Igor Janev (and that is obviously not only untruth, but compete creation of sh. Editors in attempt to humiliate people in Macedonia and describe Igor Janev as a Nazi nationalist/Fascist). Actually the message was suppose to be (understood) in satiric opposite modus, aiming to say that the only evil people in the World, with Nazi ideology, were Macedonians. Well, seems to me sh.editors miss the point there and actually described themselves as such nationalists.5.45.62.166 (talk) 08:34, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Still, US is well-known for large percentage of cases involving personal offences. But to say: country only exists "because of a conspiracy between the United Nations in cooperation with the Wikimedia Foundation" is a more serious situation. At least in Balkan countries you may not go with these defamations, unless you are prepared to pay a large amount of money. Libertarian Macedonian (talk) 01:13, 14 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Mr. Wales, I frankly don't see much meaning in your statement that "Wikipedia need not ever tolerate nasty behavior." There are a wide range of things that go on here that can be considered "nasty", but what do you take action against? I would suggest that admins on small wikis who ban people without explanation or for writing contrary to the Official POV would be far "nastier" than someone who has some rude national humor on a user page. I think that Polish jokes and Russian reversals and even more mean-spirited efforts like Life of Brian or the 'fatface' actors in Austin Powers have some legitimate place in culture. When you act to say that small wikis must never permit users to transgress your boundaries of politeness while failing to take such invasive action where substantive article content bias issues are concerned, you send a powerful message that Wikipedia is an entertainment product meant not to offend rather than one whose educational agenda is foremost. Wnt (talk) 12:32, 14 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Mr. Wnt, have you read that article? Please do so. You will see unseen offences with the death threats and defamations in each sentence of Janevistan. It shows the pattern of nasty and unlawful behavior, contrary to the rules of conduct for internet media. If you read conversation between Mac. admin. and SH. admin. you will see that SH.Wiki admin (O.C.Riper) admits wrongdoing but is reluctant to do anything abuot it! Still, I am glad to report that one of co-creators of Janevistan was finally banned from editing by ‎Wikimedia Foundation [5], for other reasons (‎Wikimedia Foundation Block: Disruptive and superfluous edits).5.45.62.131 (talk) 14:41, 14 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    P.S. My advise to Jimmy is to contact the Wikimedia Foundation - Support - Safety, just to have a proper information about legal aspects of the above mentioned offenses.Libertarian Macedonian (talk) 01:30, 14 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    If I may add here that the banned user of SH.Wiki Kolega2357 was also involved in fabrication of famous "Hoax" META story about Igor Janev, claiming that he does not exist [6]. That was accepted as a "truth" somewhere. But facts apparently speak for themselves [7].77.234.45.133 (talk) 15:41, 14 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    SH.Wiki Kolega2357 in action on la.wikipedia talk page [8]!178.223.39.198 (talk) 15:47, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    And more actions by presently banned user Kolega2357 [9][10], and similar on 10 more wikis.178.223.39.198 (talk) 16:07, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    So, we should keep an eye on the user page of User:Donald Trump? :) .
    For anyone with the relevant access, see also OTRS ticket:2016110810027764. Ks0stm (T•C•G•E) 03:14, 14 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    It appears on sh.wiki like a regular article [11] not just a subpage, when you press search button. I find interesting that the actual creator of the page consider that person as his fan[12]. See list of fans in Orjentolog list (left in Babylon).Looks to me like a stalker.5.45.62.130 (talk) 12:13, 14 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    SH.Wikipedia is a minor small Wiki with a really bad reputation. It only makes copies from Serbian and Croatian Wikipedia. In many occasions there were formal actions from both Serbian and Croatian Wikies to close that "Serbo-Croatian Wiki", but unfortunately with no success. People there are completely incompetent and irresponsible. Actually, Serbo-Croatian language doesn't really exist any more. So all editors expelled from Serbian and Croatian Wikipedia are now there. In one word so called "Serbo-Croatian Wiki", is the embarrassment for Wikipedia in general.77.234.40.180 (talk) 13:42, 14 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Actually, there is quite a funny joke there. Looking at the Google Translate for the page I saw nothing but harmless drollery (to use, nostalgically, the word now rendered as "trolling", from a more civilized time when creative expression was valued). But one of their big jokes is that every major feat in Macedonian culture was performed by Igor Janev. I found an article about him at hr:Igor_Janev, which lists 13 other Wikis, including the Macedonian and the Serbian, which have similar articles; but our article on en.wikipedia has been deleted as a "blatant hoax", and 'salted' so that no one can restart it.

    If Wikipedia wants to work on improving its reputation, it'd be nice to have a better way of spreading the word (or debating the issue) about hoaxes, especially BLP hoaxes, between the different language Wikipedias. Wnt (talk) 15:37, 14 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Admins. can always restart the BLP on Him, on the other hand He already have enough BLP in other languages. The idea on harmonization of inter-wiki policies is a good one. Someone cannot be celebrity on some Wikies and hoax on others. The article on Him was never salted on Greek Wiki, and that's surprises me. Or maybe not?5.45.62.166 (talk) 09:00, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    And what about eng.wiki? Based on apparently falsified and incomplete fact and stories about Igor Janev on META and elsewhere, his name, as such, became the subject of systematic disgracing and humiliation trough process of name eradication and termination on eng.wiki, as a spam. Was that in accordance with the rule of civility you claim to preserve here, or perhaps his rights, particularly not to be humiliated and insulted or offended, were breached?79.101.133.198 (talk) 10:03, 19 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    And everyone who defended his name or disagreed with spam or hoax qualification(s) and insults was treated as sock(s) or vandal(s), here.79.101.133.198 (talk) 10:34, 19 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    In my opinion, the Hoax or spam story was a fake and manipulation at META and even stupid. Particularly to report on META "It was recently discovered in dewp that the article about "Igor Janev" was a fake. They could saw Google Scholar [13]. If article about him was a "blatant hoax" it would had been immediately removed on Macedonian Wikipedia and Serbian Wikipedia. But that was not the case.77.234.45.133 (talk) 15:53, 14 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    As for trolling, I don't see anything funny by describing Macedonians as a wild primitive savages constantly attacking other people and countries with shadow "Tsar" Igor Janev, an extremist, nationalist and expansionist. Maybe he is not an A. Einstein, but he gave some notable contribution to the Macedonian science.77.234.45.133 (talk) 16:38, 14 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    The way you describe this user subpage makes me wonder if Google Translate cuts out all the good stuff. Meanwhile, I notice that Commons deleted a number of illustrations that were once part of it, on the rationale that they were posted without permission of their true author -- Igor Janev. :) [14] Wnt (talk) 17:18, 14 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't know details, but I presume that these illustrations would require that I.J. personally send approvals for OTRS, and I don't think he would ever act personally on such matters. Actually what I learned observing net, he never uses Twitter, Facebook, or any other social nets.77.234.45.133 (talk) 17:36, 14 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Ok, now I found it. These illustrations are photo's of I.J. fighting dog, that is, according to sh.wiki the only "Fauna" in Macedonia. The only sport in Janevistan or Macedonia is dog fighting, and the winner in dog fights is always his dog, and so on.. (never-ending nonsenses). The good stuff? Under label "Government" (sh./mk. "Vlada") goes "Tsar (in exile)" (sh. Car- Igor Janev (u izgnanstvu)), basically suggesting that person from another country rules and runs the government in Macedonia. And so on...
    Macedonians were his fighting dogs!? "Dogs of the war"?
    Proposal for the deletion of photo's of I.J.'s dog was initiated by the creator of "Janevistan", namely sh. User:Orjentolog! Apparently user "Orjentolog" was sickly obsessed by Igor Janev, just as previously sh. User:Kolega2357 was (and perhaps both were stalking him?).77.234.45.149 (talk) 20:34, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    77.234.45.151 (talk) 22:27, 14 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Finlay, and very provocative to the Greek state is the catastrophic suggestion that "temporary occupied" Greek city of Thessaloniki (sh. "Solun" (under Capital label)) the "capital" of Janevistan should be retaken - liberated (presumably by Macedonian army, implied by sh. editors) and that it was allegedly plan of Janevistanian or Macedonian government! These inflammatory crazy nonsenses are of very sensitive nature in Balkans and should not be tolerated on any Wikipedia, regardless of the tipe of the site. Balkan countries had enough wars in the past, and to post such diabolic suggestion for war between Greece and Macedonia is not a joke, not a humor at all, nor ordinary trolling. That site should definitely be deleted and sh. admins. blocked.77.234.45.151 (talk) 23:54, 14 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Dear Jimmy, make that abomination of sh. site vanish ones and for all. This is an embracement for Wikipedia. I ask myself here are there any limits for editors or administraotrs there, or more generally on Wikipedia as an Encyclopedia, before any intervention by management or people governing Wikipedia? Where are the boundaries here? Let me add my impression about that site. In the first sentence of "Janevistan" the editors were mocking about Macedonian Constitution that allegedly define the Macedonian territory as area of Eastern Europe, most of Africa and Asia, accusing and mocking the creators of the Macedonian Constitution for irredentism and expansionist aspirations embedded in the highest legal document. Let me remind everyone here, just for information, that there are a provisions (amendments to Macedonian Constitution, made on January 6, 1992.) asserting that of Republic Macedonia "has no territorial claims against any neighboring states". The policy of the Republic of Macedonia was peaceful and never with aspirations toward any territories of other countries. And by the way, I don't see here anybody from sh.wikipedia to defend themselves! I assume they already saw these discussion suggesting not only the removal of insulting abomination, but the meaningful ideas proposing to shutdown sh. project, as such. Remaining respectful,Risto Nikovski (talk) 02:33, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, don't get very upset. This is not the only master peace at the Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia. One should give the Nobel prize for peace to the creators of that site. As for Igor Janev such articles only busted his popularity in Macedonia and beyond. And Wikipedia also benefited perhaps because now, after Janevistan, more than 5% of people in Macedonia read Wikipedia. All sins will be forgiven!178.223.24.207 (talk) 13:55, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I wonder, about the "Name issue" of the Republic of Macedonia, how would USA behave if the United Nations try to impose UN membership designation "Former British colony", replacing the official name USA. Now, as you know reference for the Republic of Macedonia in UN is "the Former Yugoslav republic of Macedonia" (FYROM)! I guess your answer would be that US will never become a member of any international organization if it have to accept "Former British colony" for the provisional name or reference for the USA in international organization(s).79.101.187.172 (talk) 11:38, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • Beside that, Macedonian diplomats may always say that name "Macedonia" is legally different from the "Republic of Macedonia" (disputed[15]), so no grounds to complain from Greek State, or dispute over name.77.46.207.9 (talk) 22:14, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • Greek allegation that the name of the applicant state implies "territorial claims" has no legal significance and grounds. The name of a state, which is a subject of that state’s domestic jurisdiction (since every state naturally has an inherent right to a name), does not create international legal rights for the state that adopts the name, nor does it impose legal obligations on other states. Clearly, the name does not have an impact on the territorial rights of states.Risto Nikovski (talk) 01:49, 23 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    How about the basic policy and the rule of civility enshrined in the basic (legal) document(s) of Wikipedia/Wikimedia. Should this rule and the other basic rules be honored and protected? Or, just everyone can do or say whatever he/she/they like(s)?79.101.133.198 (talk) 06:09, 18 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Failure to act in the case of Janevistan is also a crucial decision. Janevstan per se should be interpreted as the negative and terrible precedent in violating of the standards of Encyclopedia. Failure to act in this case my lead to other similar cases were people and nations could be treated in Wikies without dignity and respect.79.101.133.198 (talk) 11:36, 18 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Don't worry very soon someone will make that site gone. Jimbo has a zero tolerance for this type of Vandalism.77.105.62.195 (talk) 12:45, 19 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think sh.admins. will appear here to explain vandalism.79.101.187.172 (talk) 01:12, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Though, sh. Clerk / CheckUser here have provided the blocking for editor[16] on 14. November 2016.79.101.187.172 (talk) 01:48, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Proper place for closing Wiki Project is META. Such as earlier [17][18].79.101.187.172 (talk) 09:41, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Right now, there is an ongoing request to remove one (of two) sh. administrator for the massive abuse of rights and harassment on SH. Wikipedia (i.e admin. Edgar Allan Poe) [19]. The procedure for removal of the administrator was initiated by another sh.Wiki user "Vujkovica brdo" (https://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korisnik:Vujkovica_brdo). As everyone can understand from the voting scores, the two administrators (namely Edgar Allan Poe and O.C. Ripper) have joined together and, with the user "Orjentolog" (notorious creator of the "Janevistan") outvoted their colleague user "Vujkovica brdo" and made the mockery of the entire process! Recently, another user from sh.Wiki "Seiya" (https://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korisnik:Seiya) also left that Wikipedia unsatisfied with the behavior there.79.101.187.172 (talk) 00:12, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    It was said in the discussion that harassment of administrator Edgar Allan Poe in long period of time left virtually no wiki. standards/rules here, whatsoever.79.101.187.172 (talk) 00:25, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Just to give you an idea of the language in use there, user "Orjentolog" said in the comment of the page (→‎Za: Готов је!) or in English: "He is finished!" [20].93.87.214.23 (talk) 03:34, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    On "Janevistan" history page you may find even worse page comments (such as "Victims of Assassination" Category, and more similar stuff).93.87.214.23 (talk) 04:31, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Not to forget plagiarism on Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia, were thousands of copies were directly taken (copy-paste) from ether Serbian Wikipedia or Croatian Wikipedia, or to put it in different way, probably more than 90 % of all articles were plagiarism.178.223.39.198 (talk) 13:30, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Plagiarism is the form of Vandalism (sometimes and somewhere crime / misdemeanor), and people who practice that on the regular basis and massive scale, as some sh.editors, should be treated as Vandals.178.223.39.198 (talk) 16:26, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    So instead of punishing real vandals Fake Meta Affair creators few years ago (2013) [21] (users from Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia), Igor Janev (article) had been punished by being salted on English Wikipedia and few other Wikis.178.223.21.243 (talk) 13:07, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Jimbo should restart or re-salt the article on Igor Janev.178.223.39.198 (talk) 16:41, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I reported this case of harassment/threats (on SH.Wikipedia/”Janevistan“) to META [22][23][24][25].Risto Nikovski (talk) 09:58, 23 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Real question here may be put in the form: can racist-alike offences / insults or even threats be allowed in the Wiki space (in general), even on subpages or not? SH. editors cannot defend their site "Janevistan" by saying "that was just a subpage "humor", justifying everything by that fact. Clearly, Wikipedia should apply some universally accepted standards and take care about the economy of its space (Wiki space is not infinite). Does the intervention of WMF banning Kolega2357 (see above, disruptive and superfluous edits, basis for banning) constitute a good precedent for a similar intervention of (any) Wiki authority to remove racist-alike site(s) and preserve the (scarce) Wiki space? Some Thoughts?77.46.207.9 (talk) 15:27, 23 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I found one more deadly threat by user:Orjentolog [26] directed to Igor Janev, see Orijentolog (Razgovor | doprinosi) "(likvidirali su čoveka!)" or in Eng. translation "Man has been assassinated!"!! These things goes far, far beyond the normal functioning of Encyclopedia. Not only that "Janevistan" should be deleted, but user:Orjentolog should be banned on a permanent term!77.46.207.9 (talk) 00:06, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Further, to establish motives for the site, what I learned from the communication between sh.user Orjentolog with sh.user Seiya was that there was a plan to create mess with Janevistan (Feb. 5. 2016, Izmjena od 13:21, 5 februar 2016)[[27]. User Seiya said to User Orjentolog: "Ori, ti si potpuno upropastio makedonsko-srpskohrvatske odnose! Da nije Makedonija napustila SFRJ još 1991., napustila bi ju danas, nakon ovoga. Zar ti nije već dovoljno zategnuta situacija na Balkanu sa svim ovim izbjeglicama, ti još hoćeš malo dodatno zapapriti i makedonskim ratom? Čuvaj se! Nemoj ići nigdje predaleko na jug!" shortly translated: "You destroyed our relations with Macedonians. Do you want war with Macedonia....Beware! Do not go to far on South." Orjentolog answered, something like " I give a damn". As I can see and conclude, some kids or students were playing war games, for fun! And META took their statements seriously 3 years ago!77.46.207.9 (talk) 01:24, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Request

    Could you please begin the foundational work so as to integrate an incentive reward system whereby editors can receive bitcoin micropayments on the basis of merit. Its going to be vital to get the parameters correct. - Shiftchange (talk) 01:29, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    It would be a better idea to allow people to obtain compensation in a useful medium of exchange, rather than a volatile commodity the main purposes of which in practice are to facilitate easier illegal transactions and to allow speculators and scammers to prey on people looking to get rich quick. --47.138.163.230 (talk) 01:50, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Such a proposal risks turning all editors into "paid editors". In theory, editors can be paid from an impartial source -- preferably a basic income, which liberates all mankind to pursue intellectual, artistic, and monastic pursuits. Barring that, an agency which makes minimal certification that Wikipedia work is being done. But when they put out the tip jar to whore for every anonymous nickel that comes their way, editors are no longer writing for the benefit of all, but for the pleasure of whoever is paying them the most. Wnt (talk) 13:02, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Which is why we have to implement it, lest someone else take control. - Shiftchange (talk) 20:35, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Hmmm, so if I understand correctly you would like the WMF to pay editors a small amount per edit. This makes some sense, but it has some drawbacks also. The first thing, obviously, is that some people might edit more but not better to get the reward. A related issue is that people are more desperate for cash in some countries (indeed, even in some U.S. states) than others -- if you pay everyone the same per edit, then a lot of folks will be outraged about some Pakistanis who patrol for commas to fix sixteen hours a day; but if you pay Americans more, that will be seen as outrageous chauvinism (not to mention expensive -- who hires Americans?) I think that some of these problems might be reduced by moving a bit closer to the basic minimum income model, i.e. WMF would pay all "active editors in good standing" a low fixed stipend. The money would not be much and the editing required would not go beyond what an interested hobbyist does in his off time. It might be low enough that editors in wealthier countries simply cash it back to WMF, but now they could style themselves as donors; others might justify that it (perhaps) pays for the internet connection. There would still be an issue with sock puppetry, but it would be harder (and not especially worthwhile) to collect multiple checks via intermediaries. There would still be a tendency to pull in a lot more "Third World" editors this way and it would draw bitter complaints, but hopefully not with quite as much foundation, and WMF does want to broaden its user base, if Wikipedia actually remains legal to read in more than a few countries. And of course limiting the amount also would make the program cheaper. Can you do it? Maybe. Wnt (talk) 16:01, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    No. I want WMF to enable value exchange as a reward for quality contributions or merit. I want WMF to do it before others do, so that the editing process is not hijacked. If we visit a market and pay with fake money such as wikilove messages the product will always be inferior to one in which something valuable is exchanged. This is why cryptocurrencies will reshape internet media. They will be the reward for users in front of their devices for whatever outcome we collectively seek. That is how cash works. Social media will use them to filter quality content and so if Wikipedia doesn't, eyeballs will leave us. This is our new paradigm. Lets play with the genie before it plays us. - Shiftchange (talk) 03:15, 22 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Gosh, I believe I couldn't possibly disagree more. To make this more obvious to you, suppose a major newspaper took the same approach: rather than hiring journalists, they would simply set up a marketplace so that the journalists could sell their services to the highest bidder. What kind of stories do you think major companies and authoritarian governments would be happy to sponsor? But even though that part is obvious, you should observe that another premise of your argument is being quite obviously demonstrated to be untrue every day. "That is how cash works. Social media will use them to filter quality content and so if Wikipedia doesn't, eyeballs will leave us." Wikipedia has grown to be vastly popular precisely because our model does not encourage authors to chase eyeballs with clickbait and controversy. Think about that, as it is perhaps a bit paradoxical: the way to have a huge audience in the long run, is to care very little about inflating page views in the short run. Why? Because at the end of the way, while people may end up clicking on a tempting headline of "sharable content" on social media, they find it unsatisfying and seek out quality instead.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:15, 23 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    What is a Wikipedia topic ID, and how did it help win Donald Trump the election with fake news?

    I just encountered [28]. As I understand it, conservatives claimed Facebook's news feed had a liberal bias. Since reality has a liberal bias, the most straightforward way for Facebook to deal with the problem was to fire all its reporters and put an algorithm in charge that disseminated some proportion of fake news, including an article read 500,000 times shortly before the election that claimed an agent investigating Hillary had been killed who didn't exist. Now mind, I have no actual idea if the "fake news" phenomenon is significant, or the griping of journalists valiantly fighting to preserve their archaic profession, or some kind of phase II in an operation to censor what Facebook will allow to be covered.

    Where this concerns us is that the origin of the fake news stories was something called a "Wikipedia topic ID", which Facebook used to decide if a story makes the cut, no matter whether it was about something real or imaginary. What I'm not so clear on is what that is, which surprises me since I've been around here a while. There's no WP:Topic ID, put it that way. Who are the gatekeepers of the topic ID, is it being done right, and was Wikipedia used to enable a fake news outbreak? Wnt (talk) 11:35, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    I do not know whether or not this is related to Aftonbladet topic ID, WSJ topic ID, NYT topic ID, and/or TED topic ID. Wnt (talk) 12:59, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Well, Dear Wnt, politics is the nasty business and by definition all means are applicable to achieve the "necessary" goals. That include framing, fake news or data, manipulation and similar stuff. Whoever enter the world of politics or the struggle for power must be prepared for worst outcomes and consequences. As for "Wikipedia topic ID", its good idea.79.101.187.172 (talk) 15:18, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I for one would be interested in the use of these hidden categories / property IDs. The power of naming is an interesting one... we saw this recently with the change of ReZpect Our Water to Dakota Access Pipeline protests. Talking of which, I heard Jimbo Wales say at the Cato Institute that he was looking for a "commons" cause like SOPA that all of Wikipedia could get behind for a blackout. ^^ Also: in researching your question a bit I landed on this open article (peer reviewed in principle), which now that I've been active on Wikipedia to keep an eye on "neutrality"'s pov, I've learned how to footnote.[1] well, sort of... Love the idea of Wikipedia (immense thank yous to all Wikipedians), but hate the fraternity-terror described by JP Sartre (sauce?) in the Critique of Dialectical Reason when a fused (or fusing) group cools into a hierarchy. SashiRolls (talk) 19:22, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    References

    1. ^ Ahmet Yıldırım; Suzan Üsküdarlı; Arzucan Özgür (March 18, 2016). "Identifying Topics in Microblogs Using Wikipedia". PLOS one. PLOS one. Retrieved November 20, 2016.
    So far I'm still not sure if TechCrunch is even telling the truth. The stuff I find about Facebook and topic-ids is not so easy to put in context, but doesn't seem like it leans on one source. [29][30] That said, I don't even know if these are relevant to what they were doing in early November. I wouldn't assume their topic-id somehow corresponds to one of our article titles versus (for example) some kind of hybrid of Wikidata's New York Times and Wall Street Journal topic-ids above ... it could be anything, really. But since they essentially pointed the finger at Wikipedia in that article somebody's going to have to figure it out. Wnt (talk) 23:21, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I wonder if it could be related to Facebook's "Community Pages" feature, introduced 2010, that pulled content from Wikipedia. It'd be an easy leap for a Facebook employee to simplify "Facebook ID representing a topic with a Community Page that has content pulled from Wikipedia" into "Wikipedia topic ID". All we've got on the Wikimedia end is article IDs and titles, categories, and now Wikidata items, and all of those are subject to the usual rules (NPOV, verifiability, reliable sources, etc.) on our end. It's a red herring to relate Wikipedia's accuracy to Facebook's fake news problem; ultimately, it's Facebook's detection of "a Wikipedia topic [being] frequently discussed in the news or Facebook" that is at issue. {{Nihiltres |talk |edits}} 15:29, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    From what I read there, I think the TechCrunch author misunderstood what he was told. Here's what I think Facebook was doing. There was an algorithm which was looking at millions and millions of comments in real time, parsing string tokens out of it. Obviously people talk about a lot of things that aren't actually "trending topics" and so you need a way to figure out which are actually trending topics rather than merely common strings of words that aren't really a topic. One quick and pretty accurate way to do that is to check if it's a topic in Wikipedia. Let me be more clear by making up a purely hypothetical example.
    Suppose the top 3 trending phrases in the past 10 minutes were: "I went to", "My father said", and "Battle of Mosul". The first two are obviously just ordinary things that people say in various contexts over time, as opposed to being "topics". The last one, though, is a topic, and it has a Wikipedia entry.
    Using that kind of data from Wikipedia hardly means "Facebook’s algorithm is barely more than a Wikipedia-scraping bot".
    I think we can get pretty strong consensus among Wikipeidans who have been around for a long time that we are a little bit susceptible to hoaxes on obscure topics, but not particularly susceptible to "fake news". If a fake news story from a made up source is flying around facebook claiming that the Pope has endorsed Donald Trump, our very experienced and very human editors are going to scrutinize that very surprising claim quite carefully. Indeed, a decent "human algorithm" when you hear something that sounds suspicious is to go to the Wikipedia entry and talk page and see what the Wikipedians are saying about it. Our culture is strongly pro-evidence and pro-fact-checking.
    Ok, that's all well and good, but I thought I'd share a few thoughts about what I think Facebook should do. They can't stop people from sharing whatever they want to share - but they can and do share related things along with it. And they can and do control algorithmically (and for various business and other reasons) how much 'reach' a particular post has. If I share something on Facebook, it might be seen by a tiny portion of my followers unless I pay, as one example. If my friend shares a story about Trump and the Pope, then Facebook often also shows me other stories on that topic. They could use this to attempt to help people out of their filter bubble by making sure that if extremist or suspect sources (editorial judgment is required here) are being shared, that they are at least being paired with more centrist and higher quality sources.
    However, note well - this is something that many people quite rightly fear! Do we really want Facebook to be shaping our view of the world based on the internal decisions of unaccountable editors? That's what people were concerned about when it was revealed that there was a bias in their trending topics... it's easier to be calm about this if Facebook's bias matches our own, of course.
    So what I suggest - and there is much to figure out about how they could do it in practice - is an open community process with discussion and compromise to shape the editorial policy - and a clear publication of the weightings that are given to various publications in the sharing/trending algorithms. One would hope to see high quality sources (left and right) be more readily promoted than low quality sources.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:33, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    This makes sense overall. I agree with your worry about Facebook, whether humans or machines are nominally in charge. I should have linked our article fake news site, which goes into some of this. It is worth noting that Internet censorship in China is way ahead in its focus on the spreading of false rumors (yaoyan), so Facebook and the Great Firewall could in theory work together on the same list, though in practice I suppose that as with motion picture rating systems each country would want a nominal autonomy. I don't think that mechanical or human censorship is the solution to a stream of fake news - really, it is the entire Web 2.0 model of instant upclicking of any opinion you happen to agree with - and downclicking of any other - that is to blame here. In the late 1990s, companies came to us and put forward the suggestion that they could do a great job of remaking the internet, and the answer is, they can't; all they can do is whore after eyeballs, leavened as necessary with some whoring after officials in positions of power over them. Wikipedia by contrast is a bastion of Old Web thinking, people thinking carefully and writing what they think is true, and that should be a powerful force for good.
    I should say that as far as I can figure out the specific incident cited by Techcrunch, concerning a fictitious FBI agent "Michael Brown",[31] never had a Wikipedia article - at least, we have no references to the "Denver Guardian" anywhere on-site, and the fictitious nature of that paper ought to have come up at any AFD. So despite my misgivings about some of the Wikidata way of doing things, so far I think Techcrunch is simply wrong and Wikipedia had nothing substantial to do with this. Wnt (talk) 19:51, 22 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    People spreading nonsense online is nothing new; Usenet and e-mail forwards were a breeding ground for all sorts of nonsense. Snopes was started by a couple of alt.folklore.urban regulars. In fact it's older than PCs; see faxlore. The only thing that's changed is the scale and incentives; now you can put up bullshit tailored to people's biases, disseminate it to billions via Facebook, Twitter, etc., and get paid for doing it from ads. --47.138.163.230 (talk) 03:40, 23 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, it didn't take long for that prediction to start coming true: [32] As for Usenet and email chains, well, the difference there was that you would be made fun of if you believed them. Wnt (talk) 12:42, 23 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    A barnstar for you!

    The Real Life Barnstar
    Thanks for founding Wikipedia, other wise I wouldn't be giving this to you right now!! JustAGuyOnWikipedia (talk) 23:34, 22 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Happy Thanksgiving

    To you and yours
    I know some folks celebrate the holiday in the UK, and you've got some turkeys there to! It's been a rough year in some respects, but we all have something and some people to be thankful for (e.g. the Cubs won the World Series). Happy Thanksgiving. Smallbones(smalltalk) 01:10, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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