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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Herbxue (talk | contribs) at 17:25, 2 February 2017 (→Discussion Closures: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Unanswuestions

You editors prefer to censor questions than answer them. I won't bring up other websites, but my questions remain unanswered. How did Wikipedia cover NICE before they updated? And why is everyone here quick to update based on NICE, but not care to update many Cochrane Reviews? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Playalake (talk • contribs) 19:31, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Reverting editors: this doesn't look like trolling or off-topic discussion to me. It shouldn't be removed out of hand.
Playalake: the article as it stands summarizes scientific consensus with due mention of fringe theories. If you have specific complaints, please point out the section(s) you are referring to. AlexEng(TALK) 22:22, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, if you read the article, there are citations to Cochrane reviews and other meta-analysis all over the place. I don't understand the basis for the question? Roxy the dog. bark 22:57, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I was talking about updates. Cochrane updates. You Wikipedia editors are so quick to dismiss NICE because they updated, but everyone else in science does as well. The article says, "An overview of Cochrane reviews found that acupuncture is not effective for a wide range of conditions, and it suggests acupuncture may be effective only for chemotherapy-induced nausea/vomiting, postoperative nausea/vomiting, and idiopathic headache.[13] " This is old. There are at least a dozen new conditions they recommend acupuncture for based on the research. Playalake (talk) 23:03, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Results saying "may be effective" are a dime a dozen. That wording suggests that it is an uncorroborated statistically significant study. 5% of all studies will yield statistically significant results if there is no effect - for that reason such results are neither exciting enough to quote nor an indication that there is something to it. There will always be some "may be effective" wordings, but the conditions acupuncture "may be effective" for change every few years when the old findings are disconfirmed and new random hits are made. That is the typical situation for all inefficient but well-researched medical stuff. --Hob Gadling (talk) 23:17, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
And 100% of studies designed to yield positive results will yield positive results. This is what happens in China - it's an extended exercise in taking credit for the placebo effect. Even the most glowing reviews of acupuncture for any condition have to lean on objectively terrible studies to reach a positive conclusion, but they usually admit that and are equivocal as a result. Someguy1221 (talk) 00:23, 5 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Trying to refute the claims of acupuncture (see here and here, and again here, for example) is like playing whack-a-mole. Proponents claim it cures dozens (or hundreds) of different conditions, and each time a claim falls flat, they simply make up a new one. Acupuncture also carries small but real risks to patients, who can suffer infections and sometimes much worse, such as punctured lungs.

— Steven Salzberg, Fake Medical Journals Are Spreading, And They Are Filled With Bad Science
Quoted by Tgeorgescu (talk) 04:07, 5 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Not only is there always a new condition, there is also always a new form of acupuncture. Someguy1221 (talk) 04:10, 5 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Also, Playalake, if you want your questions answered, you should be more truthful when you pose them: "NICE is being accused of being problematic" was, as was pointed out above, bullshit. You should at least acknowledge that. And when you write "still are waiting to issue their final statement" that is still bullshit. Unless acupuncture will some day turn out to actually work (which is pretty unlikely), there will never be a "final statement" since the status of the evidence will forever remain "no evidence for an effect was found" and there will always be people who demand "more research" until the research shows what they want it to show.
"But before their update, I'm curious about something. How did Wikipedia cover NICE?" Does that matter? Not if you are trying to improve the article, which is the goal of this page. --Hob Gadling (talk) 23:17, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think that as Wikipedians we're reasonably clear on the difference between clinical practice and scientific evidence, and the reason the two are often out of step (especially with pseudomedicine). I'm not sure the same can be said of the trypanophiles. Guy (Help!) 00:07, 5 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No! You Wikipedians are wrong. How did Wikipedia cover NICE before they updated themselves on acupuncture? Nobody answers me! Yes it matters. It shows you always have a bias! And you were the one who brought up the context for NICE being the arbiter of truth, you brought up the change.org petition so it's only fair for me to address. The petition says NICE still lists acupuncture for tension headaches and migraines, yet you Wikipedians hate this idea. Wikipedia is so keen to update NICE on back pain but not Cochrane updates! There are many many Cochrane updates yet Wikipedia lists only the old conditions! Fraud! Playalake (talk) 20:36, 5 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Except it's simply not true: the article is crammed full of recent Cochrane reviews. Alexbrn (talk) 20:47, 5 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
ec NICE. You are welcome. Roxy the dog. bark 20:49, 5 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Lies! The article does not have new Cochrane updates! How about somebody reconcile a Cochrane update that says "From the available evidence, acupuncture may have beneficial effects on improving dependency, global neurological deficiency, and some specific neurological impairments for people with stroke in the convalescent stage, with no obvious serious adverse events." with says, "An overview of Cochrane reviews found that acupuncture is not effective for a wide range of conditions, and it suggests acupuncture may be effective only for chemotherapy-induced nausea/vomiting, postoperative nausea/vomiting, and idiopathic headache.[13] " sentence from the opening paragraph. Delete this sentence or turn on my edit button so I can do it myself! Cochrane changes, but Wikipedia does not! Playalake (talk) 21:40, 5 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You mean this Cochrane review? The one that looked at 31 randomized controlled trials on acupuncture for stroke, all of which were deemed by the authors to be heavily biased, and the best studies they could locate were unblinded. Seriously. Someguy1221 (talk) 22:51, 5 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Right, so this review concluded acupuncture "may have" beneficial effects (i.e. just a possibility, no good evidence) and so "There is, therefore, inadequate evidence to draw any conclusions about its routine use". Alexbrn (talk) 10:14, 6 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Playa you can edit articles - add or edit paraphrases from recent cochrane reviews. You may get reverted but at least we can discuss the merits of the source. Don't call people liars, focus on the content you think they are ignoring and why its relevant. You will get banned quickly which would not help to make this article less ridiculously negative. I got banned for calling a dude "Betty" and swearing a bunch. Not worth it, if you really want to help focus on the actual sources (systematic reviews).Herbxue (talk) 23:09, 5 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Terrible advice, given that this has already been discussed here multiple times. Much better advice is to propose an edit, and wait until it has achieved consensus before making it. Guy (Help!) 23:14, 5 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
For the record, I think there would be some merit in including the high level summary of this review, namely:
We found some evidence that acupuncture improved activities of daily living and a number of aspects of neurological function. However, these conclusions were based on studies with low quality evidence.
After several decades and, at a conservative estimate, thousands of trials of acupuncture, the fact that this is the best they can find is pretty damning. Guy (Help!) 23:20, 5 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Whoah. I'm late to this party, but I have to say I agree with most of the advice and responses given to Playalake so far. Calm down and focus on the facts of acupunture - not peripheral issues such as whether NICE is 100% trustworthy or not - or you will get banned fairly quickly (that's not a threat, it's just based on experience). Famousdog (c) 12:21, 6 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
"it suggests acupuncture may be effective" You know what "may" means, right? You can always replace it by "may or may not" without changing the meaning. Then you see that this is not information, just noise. --Hob Gadling (talk)
How did Wikipedia cover NICE before they updated themselves on acupuncture? You can check yourself in the edit history if you're so inclined. All revisions are preserved. Sizeofint (talk) 08:17, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, acupuncture is very safe medical therapy. Clean Needle Technique is a professional stand established by several national committees more than 30 years ago in the USA. It is required by all licensed acupuncturists in their training and practice. Neither WHO nor OSHA requires acupuncturists to wear gloves in routine practice. (see position letter from CCAOM) There is no evidence or any report that needling by a dark skin acupuncturist process any risk of “non-asepsis”. Adding "Note bare hands and long sleeves" is pointless. Of course, needle should be inserted into to a bare hand and I do not see anything wrong or good with the sleeve. In fact, we do not even know if he is a licensed acupuncturist. Because of the history of this photo: a link between dark skinned acupuncturist hand to "Note lack of gloves" with Wikipedia page on "asepsis". I recommend to delete this photo and description. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tcmaa2004 (talk • contribs) 16:45, 15 January 2017 (UTC) This template must be substituted.[reply]

There is precious little evidence that it is a medical therapy at all. Guy (Help!) 16:49, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Acupuncture is ancient and current medical therapy for everyone, but its efficacy beyond placebo is challenged by RCTs for sure. However, RCT methodology was really developed for drugs and its direct application in a technical-device-based procedure is still very controversial. For example, many dental therapies are not RCT tested and no one call them pseudoscience. Dr Vickers report on acupuncture for pain from MSKCC is a major resource and evidence, and there are many more. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tcmaa2004 (talk • contribs) 04:52, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 12 January 2017

Please remove the words "and acupuncture is a pseudoscience" because it's a subjective judgement. Rcsoul (talk) 01:43, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No, it is content that has been discussed extensively here on the Talk page over the years, and is well-sourced and compliant with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Jytdog (talk) 01:47, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Jytdog: So you mean those who oppose to that biased statement have to find evidence to proof that acupuncture is NOT "a pseudoscience" right? Got it. There has been much misunderatanding since the Great Firewall not only harms the freedom of us Chinese's to access foreign sites but also contributes to some bigots' comprehension to(or any suitable conjunctions) Chinese traditional and classical wisdom. Thanks to that goddamned wall!!Super Wang 11:43, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No to oppose the statement you need to find a good source that says it is not pseudoscience. Wikipedia is built on sources, not the argumentation of editors. Alexbrn (talk) 12:03, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
And of course even then the statement would not be deleted, because there are good sources for it. If you find equally good sources, it would be qualified: Pseudoscience experts A, B, and C say it is, but pseudoscience expert D says it isn't.
But a better resolution of your problem (with slightly higher chance of success) would be to inform yourself about the properties of pseudosciences. Then you would be able to confirm for yourself that acupuncture is indeed one. --Hob Gadling (talk) 12:31, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not trying to define what a pseudoscience is, never. What I care and am concerned most is that that so-called objective and just definition hurt people. Did you mean that there must be MORE reliable sources to proove that TCM is not pseudoscience? So what does "science" mean then? Super Wang 12:24, 14 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Unless there's some new source on the table focusing on acupuncture and pseudoscience this thread is pointless and I suggest it be closed. Alexbrn (talk) 12:26, 14 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Acupuncture is not a typical subject of Sciences, but it is NOT pseudoscience. It contains a lot of scientific components with medical values, some have been approved others are being testing. Any ancient medical therapy may carry some unscientific contents but, it is not right to simply classify them as pseudoscience. The opinion of reference books cited under "acupuncture is pseudoscience" is not very popular among medical and scientific communities at least in the USA. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tcmaa2004 (talk • contribs) 05:11, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is built on sources, not the assertions of its editors. If you have no source, we're done. Alexbrn (talk) 05:20, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Sources should be selected without bias, and more real experts should be invited to join the discussion. It's not done yet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tcmaa2004 (talk • contribs) 17:01, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

So, which source are you suggesting then, Tcmaa? TylerDurden8823 (talk) 23:47, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
https://health.spectator.co.uk/fakery-massive-scale-means-just-cant-trust-studies-china/ Tgeorgescu (talk) 23:55, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Acupuncture is not science. It is a quasi-religious set of practices, so I personally don't think it's pseudoscience either (though the study of it very often is). It is definitely pseudomedicine. The thing is, though, that what we think doesn't matter a hill of beans, it's what the reliable sources say, and no reliable source on the subject of the demarcation issue between science and pseudoscience, has come down in favour of acupuncture being science.
What science tells us about acupuncture is that it doesn't matter where you pit the needles or whether you even insert them, so acupoints are fictional, the claimed "meridians" have no associated anatomy and have never been shown to exist, and a large part of acupuncture's popularity in the West stems from a propaganda stunt by Mao in the 1970s. We know it does not work for most things, we know that the effect size in all studies is small, we know that the more scope there is for bias, the greater the chance of a positive outcome from a trial, we know that no study from China has ever found a negative result, and we know that the evidence trend is firmly against it. Guy (Help!) 00:03, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Acupuncture is ancient and current medical therapy for everyone, but its efficacy beyond placebo is challenged by RCTs for sure in the last 15 years. However, RCT methodology was really developed for drugs and its direct application in a technical-device-based procedure is still very controversial. For example, many dental therapies are not RCT tested and no one call them pseudoscience. Dr Vickers report on acupuncture for pain from MSKCC is a major resource and evidence, and there are many more. What you said about acupuncture reports from China and Mao's acupuncture are INCORRECT. If you could not read Chinese or never studied Chinese medicine and Chinese history, please declare that FIRST before you make such an absolute judgement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tcmaa2004 (talk • contribs) 05:05, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It's not medical therapy, it's a quasi-religious set of practices that have been shown not to work for most situations and where the evidence of efficacy is restricted, weak and contradictory. The popularity of acupuncture in the West can be directly traced to the propaganda demonstration involving Reston during Nixon's visit in 1971. And as with most SCAM practices, acupuncture is immune to self-correction (and thus scientific validity) because it employs inoculating tactics to avoid facing incontrovertible evidence of error. Guy (Help!) 10:16, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
In can be proven with inductive reasoning that Acupuncture is not "pseudo science". "Pseudo science" is something which is pretending to be science, sort of synthetic science. Acupuncture however does not pretend to be science, rather it is pre-scientific. A subset of Traditional Chinese Medicine, which itself is subset of an ancient Taoist philosophy. I think its clear there is no consensus here that acupuncture can really be classified as "pseudo science". In fact, stating so is highly contentious, and therefore shouldn't be included in the lede of this article. In fact this entire article has no NPOV at all, which can be proven by comparing and contrasting to this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humorism . To say "we are not going to stop calling it a pseudo-science unless someone comes up with 20 different sources saying its not" is a ridiculous position, because thinking acupuncture is only a pseudo science and not else really is a very narrow and un-holistic viewpoint, which is frankly absurd, so not that many authorities would ever even have the notion cross into their minds, apart from the very small but vocal community of fanatical sceptics which exists mainly on the internet. This article reads like it was entirely written by single-minded sceptic fanatics and not by, you know, actual acupuncture scholars and experts. The problem as I see it is this article reads so NPOV because of the xenophobia and racism of some editors who are too small minded to see that acupuncture is a cultural and philosophical subject moreso than a medical subject. Even if we wish to treat acupuncture as a science, which it doesn't claim to be, then because of the experiential nature of the practice, it should use Husserl's paradigm of phenomenology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenomenology_(philosophy) . Once you do that, any notion of "placebo" becomes laughable, because you're exposing your idiocy by missing the whole point. Sure, devote maybe 10% of the article to how you sceptic fanatics think that acupuncture is no better than "placebo", (but also include the evidence showing acupuncture meridians to be planes in the connective tissue of lower electrical impedence), however the bulk of the article, and especially the lede, should be devoted to the writings of actual acupuncture experts about acupuncture.Arthur Long (talk) 05:35, 20 January 2017 (UTC) EDIT: source for one medical authority stating acupuncture is not pseudo science http://blogs.bmj.com/aim/2016/12/30/is-acupuncture-pseudoscience/[reply]
Don't be silly. He's an acupuncturist. In a blog. He would say that, wouldn't he. This was explained this year, on this page I believe.Roxy the dog. bark 05:53, 20 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
"rather it is pre-scientific" You are claiming that it will be science one day. But encyclopedias do not describe what will happen in the future, because sources from the future are hard to come by. If you want the description of acupuncture as a pseudoscience changed, you need to change acupuncture into something else.
There are lots of pretend scientific publications that claim to have found evidence. Just have a look at this page.
BTW, one hallmark of pseudosciences is that their proponents, when they recognize they have no evidence, claim that the evidence is just around the corner and that what they are defending is protoscience. I suggest we just wait until acupuncture has become a science, then describe it as one. --Hob Gadling (talk) 09:33, 22 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Lack of gloves"

The "lack of gloves" description of the lead image which Guy recently re-added has been discussed before. I don't see a consensus for this description, which is basically a POV comment used to push Guy's personal opinion on the (lack of) prevalence of aseptic technique in acupuncture. For comparison, among various pages such as intramuscular injection, immunization, vaccination and so on I found a single image of use of a needle accompanied by use of gloves - and zero comments about the "lack of gloves" (with a nice easter egg link to sterile technique) in the descriptions of all the other images. If there are reliable sources that say the lack of use of gloves is a significant problem in architecture, I'd like to see them; then we could discuss - and possibly illustrate - that issue in the article's section on "adverse effects" (which currently does not mention gloves at all). Using an image caption for WP:OR commentary is not appropriate. I will thus (again) remove that part of the image caption. Huon (talk) 02:46, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The more serious problem of this black skin hand acupuncturist needling a white hand with a description of "lack of gloves" and link to asepsis is that it make people think a dark or dirty hand transmits pathogens. The fact is with or without gloves, dark or light skin, does not matter. So, just delete the description is too late and the photo should be deleted or replaced. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tcmaa2004 (talk • contribs) 04:50, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think that is taking it to far. Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 10:15, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

— While there has been criticism of acupuncture for lack of antiseptic technique, mentioning the lack of gloves does seem to be unnecessary and is unlikely to be the major point of criticism in this realm. It is correct to say that using gloves is part of suggested antiseptic technique — however in practice they are often omitted upon taking blood samples or even drawing arterial blood — simply because they decrease the accuracy of the wearer. Acupuncture has many issues, I think this is one of the lesser ones, and doesn't require mentioning. The argument could be made that since acupuncture is entirely unnecessary (unlike a properly indicated arterial blood-test) that it is more of an issue since choosing to forgo gloves doesn't take into account an analysis of risks vs. benefits. However that sets an odd precedent and likely borders on WP:OR. Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 10:15, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

What concerns me more is that the practitioner is wearing a suit with long arms — making it very difficult to properly clean and sterilize his hands. Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 10:17, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Lack of sterile technique is a common criticism of acupuncture (e.g. in isbn:1938463633, by an infectious disease specialist). Acupuncturists don't seem to believe in it, and write their own rules, much as they invent their own anatomy. Some acupuncturists don't get the germ theory in the first place, of course. The picture is a perfect illustration of what not do do when penetrating the skin with a needle. The constant efforts of trypanophiles to normalise the problems with acupuncture are a bit of a problem. Guy (Help!) 10:33, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, absolutely. But we're not even mentioning gloves in the body of the text. Unless we're able to prove that this is a major criticism, and actually state this in the article I think it is undue to caption the image like that. I'm not saying it's incorrect, but if we only have it in the image caption (and unreferenced to boot) it seems undue. I'd be more supportive to of a caption in style of "needles inserted into a human arm without proper sterile technique". That seems less OR and also covers the inadequacy of wearing long-sleeves. Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 11:26, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm happy to discuss how we cover it, but ultimately the most striking thing about that photograph is that it will make anybody with any awareness of infection control cringe - and that is representative of most photographs of acupuncturists at work. Guy (Help!) 12:04, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

How about the following:

This image displays inadequate use of sterile technique, something acupuncture has seen significant criticism for.[ref 1938463633]</ref>

That doesn't reek of OR in my eyes, at least not as much. Feel free to add it if you want, otherwise I will do so shortly. Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 12:14, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say adding that commentary to the lead image is at the very least undue weight, particularly since we don't use it to illustrate the relevant parts of the article and since a single book hardly qualifies as "has seen significant criticism for". I expect all the people who cringe at this image equally cringe at File:Typhoid inoculation2.jpg? Long sleeves, no gloves? Should I add such notes to instances of that image, too? I'm aware this is a pointy argument and do not propose doing that, but I'd like to hear from all those who are concerned about the image in this article whether they're equally concerned about the other - and if not, why not. Huon (talk) 13:07, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Well the typhoid photo was taken in 1943... Adrian J. Hunter(talk•contribs) 13:23, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yup. Since then reality-based medicine has learned to do things much better. Acupuncture lags behind best practice by the odd millennium or two. Guy (Help!) 13:52, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That is fine by me. The claim of "undue weight" can be viewed as special pleading in context I think. Guy (Help!) 13:50, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The comment in the lede presently mentions "clean needle technique and single-use needles." That seems appropriate and it's properly referenced. In the context of the picture being compatible with clean needle technique, and also with ordinary practice in office medicine, we'd need a specific reference to suggest that there's a problem with the practice depicted. Richard Keatinge (talk) 14:41, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Like the book I cited, by infectious disease specialist Mark Crislip. Guy (Help!) 16:47, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Could you give the title or the isbn-13? Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 16:56, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It's Puswhisperer: A Year in the Life of an Infectious Disease Doctor, published by Bitingduck Press - I haven't found the specific entry, but I'm pretty sure it's a collection of blog posts from here. The author's sources for his conclusions: A Google Image search plus some isolated cases. Somehow I doubt that book is WP:MEDRS compliant for such a general conclusion. As an aside, if you want newer cringe-worthy images where you can include warnings about the lack of sterile technique, try File:Bracing for a short, sharp jab.jpg - that's 2011, long sleeves, no gloves. Found in intramuscular injection. Or File:Intramuscular Injection.JPG from the same article, 2010, no gloves (no way to judge sleeve length), fingers very close to the point of injection. What I call special pleading is to argue for the addition of such personal commentary in this article but not in others. Huon (talk) 22:47, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The issue is, though, that those images are not representative of current practice, whereas the acupuncture image, by its position at the head of the article, is implicitly exactly that. And actually the evidence shows that this is correct, that aseptic technique is not commonly followed by acupuncturists, and indeed there's credible evidence that a sizeable proportion of the acupuncture community don't even understand the issue. Guy (Help!) 23:01, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Depending on the indication, some IM-injections do not include a recommendation of being performed under sterile conditions. For example adrenaline IM is rarely if ever given under sterile conditions, and autoinjectors are made to be used in non-sterile conditions. Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 23:14, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the trypanophiles seem to want to have it both ways: they are somehow exempt because they have "special" rules, and yet there is no need because it's inherently safe. In fact, as with most things related to acupuncture, it's a mess, because the agenda is driven by belief, not fact. Guy (Help!) 23:23, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You're welcome to bring reliable sources that make those points. Are you seriously arguing that that collection of blog posts which says a Google Image search shows few acupuncturists use gloves is compliant with WP:MEDRS? Or is this just your personal opinion? And yes, the acupuncture image, because someone put it at the head of the article, indeed will be taken as representative of current practice. That, however, is not some inherent property of acupuncture but an editorial decision on Wikipedia. If this aspect of acupuncture is the one that needs to be emphasized in the lead image, I'd like to see much better references declaring that it is indeed the main aspect. Huon (talk) 07:35, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That is an assessment of the endless debates on this page, not a content suggestion. The endless special pleading by trypanophiles is self-evident form the archives. Guy (Help!) 10:11, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The inconsistent use of sterile technique by acupuncturists is a frequent topic of discussion by skeptical sources. I'm actually surprised it is only mentioned in the caption to that photo. Someguy1221 (talk) 10:19, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. However, there is a difference between full sterile technique using gloves, drapes, wipes etcetera - which is not used for most skin puncture procedures by acupuncturists, nor by conventional doctors - and clean needle technique, which is routine for even the most minor procedure. And the picture seems entirely compatible with clean needle technique and therefore with accepted good practice. The comment does need to go, sorry. Richard Keatinge (talk) 10:27, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Several guidelines state that clean needle technique is not enough. Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 10:49, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe I need to change my own practice for taking blood etc. If you have authoritative guidelines, well-founded on good evidence, I might do so. Let's have them. Richard Keatinge (talk) 11:04, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Dunno, our local practice nurses use a minimum of gloves and alcohol wipes for all injections and blood draws, and of course bare below the elbows. Guy (Help!) 11:24, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Richard Keatinge – [1]/[2]

Aseptic technique is one out of 5 points involved in preventing infections. Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 11:59, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for those references. They are guidelines written for and presumably by acupuncturists and they don't seem to quote any evidence. Now, neither I nor any of the primary health care professionals whose practice I'm familiar with use anything more than clean needle technique for blood sampling. Many years ago I recall some evidence - I can't be any more specific - that so long as the skin is socially clean, nothing more is required. And, in thirty-five years of practice, I've never seen or heard of an infection that could plausibly have been caused by my venous sampling technique or anyone else's. (It's different with longer-term IV lines.) The lack of infections I did have occasion to check with a room full of perhaps thirty colleagues in primary care. I'd require direct evidence to change my practice or that of my nurses, and I don't see it. I have no interest in doing acupuncture or having it done, but I'd have thought that clean needle technique would be perfectly acceptable so long as you're not sticking the needles in too far. Over-cautious guidance from socially-aspiring acupuncturists are not, to put it politely, evidence. Richard Keatinge (talk) 13:45, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Well, Richard, you know I hold your opinion in high regard, so what do you think we should say? There is a decent amount of commentary on poor infection control, we know that humoural belief systems encompass germ theory denialism, and there is no doubt that the picture exhibits poor practice which is not at all unrepresentative. I'm pretty sure we both remember Cameron being booted from a ward because he had long sleeves on. I'd be happy to replace the image with one showing best practice. Guy (Help!) 20:53, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Note to onlookers: Richard and a couple of friends taught me skepticism even before I knew it was a thing: respect for evidence above all else. Guy (Help!) 20:56, 16 January 2017 (UTC) [reply]
Thank you for your kind remarks. Poor practice for hospitals maybe, where there are nastier germs around and sicker patients with much larger holes being made in them, but I still come back to the point that actually, the practice shown is not unusual nor necessarily poor. I would think the best solution would be a picture that shows the full sterile precautions recommended by the WHO acupuncture guidelines, with no comment. I don't have such a picture but maybe another editor can produce one? Richard Keatinge (talk) 15:55, 19 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 16 January 2017

close non-productive

 TCM theory and practice are belongs to ancient science although not based upon modern scientific knowledge,[1] and acupuncture is not fully understood yet by the modern science therefor some people think it is a pseudoscienceATCMA (talk) 02:50, 16 January 2017 (UTC) ATCMA (talk) 02:50, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Please just add a proposal to modify the text in the article without using an edit request. Such requests are only for simple and non-controversial changes which could be performed by a robot if it could read the request.
The text above includes "are belongs" which does not make sense. The rest of the text seems to be a suggestion that modern science should be disregarded. That is not going to happen at Wikipedia. How would you feel if you spent an hour reading an article here on a topic you were not familiar with, then later found that the article had ignored modern science and was in fact written by enthusiasts? Without reliable sourcing, such an article would merely be telling you what enthusiasts hope. Use Google to find websites to fill that need. Johnuniq (talk) 04:14, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
off-topic: That actually sounds like "all your base are belong to us". --Artoria2e5 emits crap 01:15, 18 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]


@Johnuniq: You mean Google is scientific?! With reliable sources?! Only on Google can we find appropiate sources?! LMAO.

(off-topic) @Artoria2e5: Is laughing at others' poor English interestin g dude? Super Wang 09:24, 19 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Super Wang: While Google is nowhere near being a scientific source itself, its crawlers and search service yield a fair estimation of what's considered WP:DUE weight. If something is not found on Google, then it's usually either too new to be significant or too unpopular to be mentioned. off-topic: It's not, but most of your sources are belong to Google's index. --Artoria2e5 emits crap 15:52, 19 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
(off-topic) What a astonishing thought... What does "your sources" mean? By the way, I suppose and suggest you never learn Chinese. Now stop with that lingua praecellentia bulls**t.
not off-topic-> I recall of the experience of appealing the meta to add Baidu as a transwiki. Though those meta fellows didn't promise, one must admit that they can get more reliable source in Chinese on Baidu -- of course, let go of the censorship. Super Wang 04:21, 20 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Admittedly Baidu currently gives better results for simplified Chinese queries (Google has been better until recently). off-topic: This is getting insane. I admit my unfamiliarity with Baidu as I have always been avoiding it for searches since 2014 by using Bing China or Google instead, but what on earth does your comment on "Chinese" come from? I used to use Baidu Tieba, and I speak zh-CN natively. (My avoidance of Baidu has nothing to do with its infamous medical advertisement; it's instead based on usability with English and technical queries.)
Regarding Chinese sources (which is what we are actually talking about), look around the rest of this talk page and section Publication bias for what usually happens to them in this article. Somebody set up them the bias; --Artoria2e5 contrib 05:21, 20 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
... and Wikipedia's stance on acupuncture is not going to change as long as the medical society (I mean, WP:MEDRS) does not find these positive studies reliable. off-topic: For "someone", try the terrible "all the blame goes to the commies" (Chinese: 都是阿共仔搞的鬼) blame. It's not that unfair if you consider Acupuncture#Modern era. --Artoria2e5 contrib 05:39, 20 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Super Wang: Hmm. Johnuniq is not even suggesting that Google is scientific; he is just saying that you can find websites that match your taste with Google. Bad argument turn on. --Artoria2e5 contrib 09:11, 20 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Artoria2e5: Hm? I did NOT want a bad argument; maybe I misestimated your bilingualism. A'right, I have to express my apology. However, Google matches my taste? Don't mess that with me. I look forward to your explaination. About publication bias, not only PRC but also other countries emphasize on that. Once more, Communists have not ever dug your family's grave (I am responsible for whatever I comment), therefore you stop with "都是阿共仔搞的鬼". Besides, this is enwp. Super Wang 10:45, 20 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Chinese Wikipedia has seen a few posts around pseudoscience, acupuncture, and TCM in its Village Pump page for article discussions: acupuncture, Template:Alternative Medicine Systems, topics characterized as pseudoscience (inclusion of TCM). Some arguments for acupuncture's "disputed science" status on Wikipedia include:

Unsurprisingly, there has been outcries against perceived unfairness/discrimination against Chinese publications in English Wikipedia and the removal (actually, renaming) of sections Scientific view on TCM theory and International reception (now Purported scientific basis and Adoption). Avoidance of publication bias in Chinese-language literature also lead to discussions around NPOV itself. --Artoria2e5 contrib 01:44, 20 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Edzard Ernst recently stated his belief in publication bias in Chinese medical literature, but a long time ago (I forget where, so I don't have a link) he had an alternate theory: design bias. That is, virtually all acupuncture studies conducted in China suffer from similar methodological flaws that guarantee a positive result: No control groups or the wrong controls, no blinding or improper blinding, small sample sizes or too many subgroups, and enough parallel measurements that something is bound to come out positive. And if all else fails, just torture the data and try every statistical test until you find something good to say about it. So basically you could potentially arrive at China's 99.7% positive-result rate with hardly any self-censorship. The trend I consistently see is that skeptics will call out the bad sources, explain in detail why they are pseudoscience, but the bad publications never stop coming. And then people come here, insisting that this new research rescues the subject by virtue of being more recent than the criticisms. "Those criticisms don't apply to this new source, because blah blah blah..." But a careful reading will show that all of these new sources suffer from the exact same problems skeptics have always been pointing out. So in summary, I would say that we call acupuncture a pseudscience because the best sources do, and the fact that acupuncturists won't stop arguing doesn't change anything. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:14, 20 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think actually that there are multiple sources of bias.
First, studies are designed on the assumption that a theory is correct, when that assumption is at least questionable. This besets most SCAM research especially homeopathy and chiropractic .
Second, studies are designed to confirm the hypothesis rather than test it.
Third, negative studies are less likely to eb published (which also applies to reality-based medicine).
Fourth, there is a culture of not challenging respected authorities, which in most cases means not going against the status quo.
I am sure there are others too. Guy (Help!) 12:34, 20 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I am a Romanian. I know that it is an objective fact that scientific publications of Romanian scientists who live and teach in Romania have a low impact in world science. I am not offended by this fact, since it reflects the Romanian reality. Why Chinese people should be offended because Chinese scientists who live and teach in China produce low-quality scientific work? People should not be offended by objective facts. Tgeorgescu (talk) 23:10, 21 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
JzG's first and second points say it well. Such ancient "scientific advances" as TCM & acupuncture (well, thank Mao for these two) are part of Chinese national pride, and you know your belief is in trouble when people say parts of your pride are wrong. --Artoria2e5 contrib 01:42, 22 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In the news

Not pertinent to article improvement. Alexbrn (talk) 07:12, 31 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

ecns.cn.--2605:8D80:5C4:15E:78A9:63CB:BC3B:47CE (talk) 06:38, 31 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Quacks defend quackery shock! Alexbrn (talk) 07:09, 31 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Discussion Closures

This is regarding the recent closure of 2 discussions related to article content. It is not appropriate to shut down discussion just because you don't agree with it, or you feel it has been discussed already. The issues brought forth are real issues (biased tone of the article). If you don't want to have that discussion you don't need to participate, but closing the discussion, which is clearly aimed at improving the article, certainly does not improve anything.Herbxue (talk) 17:25, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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