Talk:Jorge Luis Borges

Vandalism

The "" and "Early Writing Career" sections of this page has clearly been vandalized. Quite a few references to pornography and incorrect dates have been injected. I'll try to make corrections where I can. The other sections of this page seem to be unaffected. Tms9980 (talk) 18:55, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Nice try

The "Sexuality" section makes an effort to obliquely attribute inversion to Borges, but can't seem to make it stick. However, it is a good attempt to bring this article into line with all other Wikipedia biographical articles. Lestrade (talk) 22:03, 6 November 2009 (UTC)Lestrade

Jorge Luis Borges bibliography

Hey all,

The Jorge Luis Borges bibliography page is in dire need of clean-up and correction, so head over there!

TuckerResearch (talk) 05:29, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

We could all be dumber for having read this in its entirety. Good justification for libraries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.4.227.200 (talk) 20:23, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Tidy

I have tidied up the references and external links and added some references, though I will continue to research and add citations for the many sections that are unref'd. There is some concision of repeated themes, such as Borges's multi-cultural influences and his writings on Argentine culture. I'm sure there is a lot more concision needed in Influences, collaborations, and themes. I have cut little out, no sections were removed. A Notes section is added. Onwards and upwards! Best wishes Spanglej (talk) 21:46, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Legacy section

I suggest we cut the "Legacy" section. It is mostly a list of media inspired by Hesse's works. Every famous artist has hundreds of people who are inspired by their work. The list is not comprehensive or notable, in my view. WP:TRIV says "Trivia sections should be avoided." Any objections? Thanks Spanglej (talk) 04:07, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Swedenborgianism

Other than imitating the style, and writing a book he falsely claimed was a translation of Swedenborg, the article gives no indication that Borges subscribed to Swedenborg's philosophy. Therefore, I have removed the relevant category as unjustified. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 03:37, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Copyright problem

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Google Doodle

The google doodle is pointing at this page (24th August 2011) perhaps it should be semi-protected whilst that is happening? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.146.50.249 (talk) 23:09, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree. It's already being blanked. Span (talk) 23:26, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the doodle, I am going to add its mention to the International Renown section. Borges is too influential a figure to have the sole "Borges in popular culture" section be the inclusion of a Google Doodle. If that section is created with more references, we can move it back in.

Vincent Moon (talk) 22:09, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Actually, that idea doesn't make sense. Hmmm, perhaps I could make a small influence section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vincent Moon (talk • contribs) 22:12, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Many great FAs have no IPC section at all, William Shakespeare, Bette Davies, Emily Dickinson, W. B. Yeats for example. Discussion of Borges' international renown is mentioned throughout the article. I don't think a mention on Google for one day is not a significant event in the 112 year history of Borges. It smacks for recentism to me. Span (talk) 23:08, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree wholeheartedly with Span. It does not belong. Jujutacular ^talk 23:15, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

O.R. titling

The title ==Multiculturalism and Argentine literature== and the sub-title ===Multiculturalism=== are the invention of an anon ip 64.81.67.110 near ten years back. They were not supported by refs, the refs that are given were added later. These refs are actually of a biography and a review of Borge and they do not contain the words multiculturalism/multicultural/multicultist anywhere within them. These titles are therefore not valid.Gaius Octavius Princeps (talk) 09:51, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

If you have concerns now you're glad you didn't see the article before the anon changes then. It was really quite condescending toward Borges; alternate contributors would swing the pendulum the other way and make him a mouthpiece for their favored perspectives. So my take on the history of the section 10 years ago is somewhat different. By now it's morphed and improved much. The "Multicultural Influences" subsection is presently defensible, far more so than previous iterations I've seen. The word "multicultural" is an anachronism though maybe it's OK, but the text is still a bit rambling and could be greatly improved merely by being ordered chronologically. The Borges and Williamson quotes read to me like footnotes, backing up assertions in the text, not text worthy themselves. The mention of the James brothers and Reyes alike seem out of place.

What's missing here is related to what's missing in the Criticism subsection, which lacks material about politically motivated critics who he contended with during Nazi and Peron periods. Then, the Multicultural Influences subsection should cross reference such new material in Criticism, that he faced criticism and oppression for these non-nationalist leanings. We don't have to hit people over the head with more cosmopolitanism.

Incidentally, in the text immediately leading to the Multicultural section--of course there are camels in the Koran! Repeating Borges' error on this matter doesn't seem too encyclopedic.

I appreciate what people have done with this article, thanks to contributors whose stuff stuck and thanks for keeping only those things I contributed that were useful. munge (talk) 06:38, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

The section heading is "Multiculturalism and Argentine literature", that is what the section is about. It discusses the tensions between the multi-culturalist influences and Argentine identity which ran through Argentine culture at the time, an exploration that ran through much of Borges work. That is what the section on Martín Fierro is about, internationally offering post-colonial "Argentine models without pandering to his readers or framing Argentine culture as 'exotic'". (The given reference Takolander, Maria (2007) Catching butterflies: bringing magical realism to ground Peter Lang). The questions of how to now place themselves on the global stage, how to solidify their own identity without becoming a cliche, insulated by nationalism or annexing themselves outright by colonial rejectionism, these were dilemmas many ex-colonial nations faced:

"While the majority of his fiction is culturally pluralistic, this is attributable not to any antipathy towards Latin America but to two main ideological factors. One of these is his philosophy of liberal humanism. Borges' fiction is not only commonly universal in its subject matter, it is also typically universalist in its theoretical implications. This globalist vision by no means implies a renunciation of his nation, but it does involve a repudiation of nationalism. Borges denounced nationalism, with its insularity, exaltation of cultural purity and inherent propensity for intolerance, as 'the main affliction of our times' and encouraged people to 'be citizens of the world'". The given reference Takolander, Maria (2007) Catching butterflies: bringing magical realism to ground Peter Lang Pub Inc pp.53-60 ISBN 3-03911-193-0 discusses the questions at length. " The Argentine Writer and Tradition (1951), is a key document in Borges's aesthetic, a defense of literary cosmopolitanism in reply to Iberophiles and nativists both." Source given Borges and His Fiction

This is set against the background of Argentina's multi-cultural make up post-independance (1816). "Massive immigrations from Italy, Eastern Europe, and (to a lesser degree) the British Isles would inevitably transform the Argentine demography, particularly that of the capital, which became, like New York, a cosmopolitan city... It is the non-Hispanic, cosmopolitan, European drift in Argentina's national history, then, with its vivid incarnation in the urban metropolis, that underlies and sustains Borges's bold proposal that the Argentine writer make use of "all of Western culture" — which is to say, the entirety of European and local phenomena… Borges's general theory grows out of his concrete practice as an Argentine writer of the cosmopolitan type. Poised on the periphery in a remote Western outpost, Borges takes on whole chunks of European experience—the Greek myths, the Roman Empire, early Christian doctrine, medieval Islamic thought, Jewish mysticism, academic theology, philosophical idealism, French symbolism, Victorian orientalism, Irish republicanism, English sleuth yarns and spy thrillers—and then remakes these variegated disciplines, subcultures, and genres (playfully, ironically, irreverently, fancifully, sometimes magically) into fresh forms and new structures...And though his universalism is obviously essential to his work, it is something picked up on native ground, through family ties and from wide reading at home. [With] his seven years as a late adolescent and young adult in Europe, and his globetrotting dating from the 1960s, Borges's life and work are experientially rooted in the world of Buenos Aires." Given source Borges and His Fiction Bell-Villada, Gene. "As early as 1925 he was writing and arguing the case for a new and strange cosmopolitanism which would also make a hero of the local." "He wrote in support of a cultural openness, an Argentine cosmopolitanism". Given source "Don’t abandon me" Colm Tóibín. Borges wrote " I travelled up and down Argentina and Uruguay, lecturing on Swedenborg, Blake, the Persian and Chinese mystics, Buddhism, gauchesco poetry, the Icelandic sagas, Heine, Dante, expressionism and Cervantes." Source given Borges and His Fiction.

To reference the deep influence of multi-culturalism from within and without Argentina, within his own family, from political, literary, post-colonial, nationalist and linguistic points of view is not original research, it's in the sources given in the article. 'Universalism', 'cosmopolitanism', 'pluralism' are commonly used in the sources if the word 'multiculturalism' is not. To reduce the headings to cover Argentine culture is to miss the point of the section. The titles may have been used in the article 10 years ago but the page was re-written last year with new sources added. Span (talk) 23:29, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

84 percent European ancestry. Hardly justifies the "massive" Asian and other immigration tag des it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentina#Demographics — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.132.248.192 (talk) 01:47, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

The article doesn't say anything about massive Asian immigration. Span (talk) 06:24, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

IPA Pronunciation (August 2011)

I am unable to do the edit myself, but there is an error in the pronunciation indicated in IPA. The first sound of "Borges" is transcribed with a [β], which represents a voiced bilabial fricative. This sound is only found between vowels in Spanish. The transcription should be a simple [b], a voiced bilabial stop, which is the pronunciation found in all non-intervocalic environments.

Un ejemplo típico de inexactitud en Wikipedia. 75.27.41.134 (talk) 17:38, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

There would be less inexactitude on Wikipedia if people went ahead and helped to copy edit the article instead of complaining. Please make the change if one is needed, adding an edit summary. Span (talk) 21:40, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Edit request from Burningspork, 24 August 2011

In the section Anti-Communism, please correct "Estella Canto" to "Estela Canto" and link the name to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estela_Canto

Burningspork (talk) 13:19, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Done.Gaius Octavius Princeps (talk) 13:28, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 129.57.115.155, 24 August 2011

The current article states: OLD TEXT: "By the late 1950s, he had become completely blind, as had one of his best known predecessors, Paul Groussac, for whom Borges wrote an obituary.[9] Neither the coincidence nor the irony of his blindness as a writer escaped Borges". Without indicating what was ironic or coincidental about the blindness. What's missing is a mention of Borges' appointment to director of the National Library. I can be changed: SUGGESTED CHANGE: "By the late 1950s, he had become completely blind, as had one of his best known predecessors, Paul Groussac, for whom Borges wrote an obituary.[9] In 1955, he was nominated to the directorship of the National Library. Neither the coincidence nor the irony of his blindness as a writer escaped Borges." This also clears up confusion later in the article as it goes on to mention his activities in the position when we have not first stated that he received the position. Finally, reference 24. ^ Jorge Luis Borges, Seven Nights, A New Directions Book, 1984. Page 110. Can be changed from Page 110 to Page 109 to include the statements about his directorship nomination. Thanks so much! - MikeJfromVA@gmail.com 129.57.115.155 (talk) 15:45, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments. It's changed. Span (talk) 19:32, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Hoaxes, forgeries, and misdirection

Does anyone take seriously the idea that "Menard" was a hoax? (Similarly, "Tlon".) The issue of hoaxes is not a good place for the article to detail an interpretation of Menard as it does, which to me has more to do with Borges' views on translation or even satire than it has to the hoaxes theme.

In contrast the section omits key issues re the hoaxes theme. I propose section could be renamed Hoaxes, Forgeries, and Misdirection. If so then we can mention "Al Mutassim", "Herbert Quain", and "Three Versions of Judas" as at least potentially misleading to readers who might easily think them to be among Borges' critical nonfiction rather than his fiction. I think it's also reasonably encyclopedic to say that Borges' intentions (as to how his readers would perceive provenance) were ambiguous in such cases. I would not say that is true of "Menard" (or "Tlon") unless someone can produce a good reason.

It's fair to mention Carlyle and Butler in this context but that paragraph has redundancy; I also think the Borges quotes read more like a footnote rather than main text. munge (talk) 07:28, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Please, do go for it, be bold. The article could use an expert eye, and some sourcing from scholarly texts, especially around themes. I'd love to see it worked up into an WP:GA at some point, and improved before that. Best wishes Span (talk) 14:41, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Errors

I'm not changing anything here, cause I'm new to this and I don't want to screw anything up, but I can GUARANTEE you Borges' longest story is NOT 14 pages, nor was he first published in '71. Where do people get this stuff? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.137.194.202 (talk) 08:58, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

The 'Works' section says "His longest work of fiction was a 14-page story, "The Congress", first published in 1971". The source given is the London Review of Books which is a pretty solid source. The line is saying the story was first published in 1971. Borges published books of stories, but "The Congress" was the longest at 14 pages". What story do you think is longer? Span (talk) 11:03, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Intro paragraph is weird...magical realism missing

Current text: His works have contributed to philosophical literature and also to the fantastic genre, a genre that reacted against the realism/naturalism of the nineteenth century.[3][4][5] In fact, critic Angel Flores, the first to use the term, set the beginning of this movement with Borges's Historia universal de la infamia (A Universal History of Infamy) (1935).[6]

Seems like this is addressing the term "magical realism" without ever using it.

I propose:

His works have contributed to philosophical literature and also to both the fantasy and magical realism genres. The magical realism genre reacted against the realism/naturalism of the nineteenth century.[3][4][5] In fact, critic Angel Flores, the first to use the term, set the beginning of this movement with Borges's Historia universal de la infamia (A Universal History of Infamy) (1935).[6]

make sense? PMonaghan (talk) 14:54, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Definitely, and confusions like this can usually be found near the top of the history (popups makes scanning through diffs easier).

Here is where that part was changed. Fix it up as you see fit. :) -- Quiddity (talk) 21:08, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

BA/baccalauréat - finished/unfinished

Subject: "He received his baccalauréat from the Collège de Genève in 1918."{{cn|date=December 2012}}<ref>Edwin Williamson, ''Borges,'' Viking 2004:'the matter of his unfinished ''baccalauréat'' (p.79): 'he cannot have been too bothered about his ''baccalauréat,'' not least because he loathed and feared examination. (He was never to finish his high school education, in fact).' p.80.</ref>

Britannica, Olstrom and Merriam-Webster's Encyclopedia Of Literature say he finished and received a BA from the Collège de Genève in 1918. Biographer Bell-Villada says he finished a baccalauréat. Biographer Wilson says he didn't. A BA and a baccalauréat have no equivalence or educational parity even to the densest biographer. Any thoughts as to why some biographers may have thought he didn't complete whatever course of study he followed? Evidence? Any thoughts on the BA/baccalauréat source clash? Refs seem strong on all sides. We can add the 'did he / didn't finish' as a footnote but the BA/baccalauréat question should be easier to resolve. Thanks Span (talk) 01:38, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Pic issue

I am not convinced this is a pic of Borges. It has also been uploaded separately as a pic of his father and is used as such at Jorge Guillermo Borges. It is also on the wikmedia commons, attributed to the father [:http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Jorge_Guillermo_Borges.jpg here], in the Spanish wikipedia the pic is sued to illustrate his father but not Borges. On the other hand is this, if from 1921, a pic of a 22 yr old or of 46 yr old. I have removed the pic from this article but if anyone can help clarify this situation please speak up. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 00:29, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

It's definitely a pic of Borges – whoever uploaded this to Commons needs a good pair of glasses. And a brain.

This picture appears on the book cover of an annotated edition of Borges's complete works in Spanish ([1]), and a very similar one was used in an article commemorating his 110 birthday in the Argentinian newspaper La Nación ("JLB siempre eterno". It's the 3rd pic in the gallery). Hope this helps. Cheers, --Coco Lacoste (talk) 00:11, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll go and remove it from the Spanish edition too, the pic claiming to be his father needs speedy deleting too. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 00:24, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Squeakbox, but I beat you to it (modest aside). Could you please ask for it to be deleted on Commons? Cheers, --Coco Lacoste (talk) 00:31, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Seeing if I can change the name first, otherwise I will figure out how to delete it on commons, for sure, and thanks a lot for the heads up. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 00:39, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Influences section

In the injfo box we have a massive influences piece but it isnt displaying. I am not sure how to fix this. Anyone else know?. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 00:02, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

The influenced/influences fields were recently deprecated in Infobox people and Infobox writer. Any cited instances should be moved into the prose of the article. –Quiddity (talk) 00:55, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. No time right now but on my to-do list. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 14:16, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Father's full name?

The article names Borges' father as Jorge Guillermo Borges and then in the very next sentence refers to him as "Borges Haslam". While there are sources which list Borges' father's full name as Jorge Guillermo Borges Haslam, there are also sources which refer to him simply as Jorge Guillermo Borges. Which is the more correct form? Salmanazar (talk) 10:56, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

When he is referred to as 'Borges Haslam' that seems harmless since the point is to distinguish him from his son, when both are called Jorge. The father's article now calls him Jorge Guillermo Borges both here and on the Spanish Wikipedia. Per Spanish naming customs we might rename the father's article to Jorge Guillermo Borges Haslam but English-language references don't use that form of his name as often. I created a redirect at Jorge Guillermo Borges Haslam so there will hopefully be no confusion. EdJohnston (talk) 16:25, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, Ed. I would like to suggest that the following pair of sentences could benefit from a little clarification, as I feel the sudden introduction of the form "Borges Haslam" may cause confusion:

Borges's father, Jorge Guillermo Borges, was part Spanish, part Portuguese, and half English, also the son of a colonel. Borges Haslam, whose mother was English, grew up speaking English at home and took his own family frequently to Europe.

Salmanazar (talk) 19:11, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

The father is now introduced as Jorge Guillermo Borges Haslam which is piped to the shorter name. I hope that will clarify for the reader who we are referring to. Since biographies of Borges must tell something about the father's life, there ought to be a lot of material for expanding our article on his father. EdJohnston (talk) 00:20, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

That is much better, Ed. As to Borges senior's life, the first chapter of Woodall's "Borges - A Life"is online here and has some biographical details. Salmanazar (talk) 14:38, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Notability of individual Borges stories

Not sure where to ask this, but I was wondering whether most of Borges' stories lack their own article because they are not deemed sufficiently notable, or merely because nobody has gotten around to writing them as yet. If it's the latter, I'd be glad to write some. Thanks! --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 18:57, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Please go ahead, this would be a valuable contribution to wikipedia♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 19:10, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Homosexualition

Hi, is the Borges whare one homosexual. Im have prueb is your homosexualition — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.255.97.72 (talk) 04:52, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Translation from spanish article

Since my addition of a template requesting translation of sections of the Spanish article on Borges for the English article was reverted by user 181.167.99.117, I can only ask the opinion of other editors on whether the article in Spanish is... as bad as 181.167.99.117 says it is, or if it has sections worth translating. Do you support or oppose adding the translation template? Desiderius82 (talk) 23:52, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Wrong translation of 1937 quote against Nazi literature for children

"I don't know if the world can do without German civilization, but I do know that its corruption by the teachings of hatred is a crime."
is a bad translation for
"No sé si el mundo puede prescindir de la civilización alemana. Es bochornoso que la estén corrompiendo con enseñanzas de odio."
which actually means something like
"I am not sure that the world can do [go] without the German civilization. It is a shame that it is being corrupted [It is shameful that it is being corrupted or It is a shame/What a shame to see it corrupted] by teachings of hate."

I am not sure if the translation was taken from some translated edition, or if it was an attempt by the Wikipedia article translator, but in any case it should be corrected.

You can find that extraordinary very short piece by the ~38 year old Borges in 1937, at a time when the world was not caring about the Nazis (if not in love with the Nazis), googling "Una pedagogía del odio".

Iiiiaaaa (talk) 01:33, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Kafka and "magical realism."

Critic Ángel Flores, may have correctly said that that the term "magical realism" was first used in regard to one of Borges' stories, but surely Kafka's "Metamorphosis" is an example of it.

that is, "Metamorphosis" has one single magical element, while the rest of the story, and the characters' behavior, are entirely realistic, in response to that one magical element.

2601:18A:8100:9BDA:7402:1C85:A79:6392 (talk) 17:22, 11 June 2015 (UTC) Michael Christian

Blindness

It is stated in the entry on Borges that he was "completely blind" at the age of 55 (ie by 1954). This does square with this Paris Review interview from 1966, in which the interviewer states on several occasions that Borges is "not completely blind".

http://www.theparisreview.org/interviews/4331/the-art-of-fiction-no-39-jorge-luis-borges — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mosimann100 (talk • contribs) 16:12, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

I suspect the various good sources differ on when he was officially "completely blind". Perhaps hard to give a definitive date on this. Anna (talk) 19:08, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

One-Word Yet Stupendous Error

The section 'Early Life and Education' refers to the '...anti-Modernist Ultraist literary movement...' In fact, the Ultraist movement was not anti-Modernist, but anti-Modernismo, which is a very different thing. In fact, the Ultraists can be listed under the broad umbrella of Modernism, while 'Modernismo' was a much narrower literary movement particular to the Spanish-speaking world. The word 'anti-Modernist' links to the 'Modernismo' page so that's fine. 'Anti-Modernismo' sounds bizarre and awkward so perhaps the entire sentence needs to be reworked. I'm new at this and don't feel ready to jump in quite yet but I did want to point out the issue. RobotBoy66 (talk) 10:39, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

Fixed! I would guess (without spending time combing through the history) that someone else assumed it was a translation-error or spelling-mistake, and so had 'fixed' it without understanding the error they were making. Thank you for the cautious and detailed message! That kind of proves that you're going to be a good editor. Please see WP:Be bold, plus the links I put on your talkpage. Welcome! Quiddity (talk) 02:47, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for the encouragement. RobotBoy66 (talk) 12:03, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

Borges' Knighthood

I suspect Borges' honorary knighthood, the KBE, is a hoax. Could someone supply a source, or I will delete. How much else of this article is a hoax?--Mongreilf (talk) 22:13, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Apparently not a hoax. [2] [3] [4]. EEng 23:44, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Yet The Gazette, the official record of such things, has nothing.--Mongreilf (talk) 23:57, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

...assuming you used the right search options, the website's coverage is appropriate, it's error-free, etc. WP:PRIMARY, WP:OR. Who knows? Maybe it is a hoax, but absent another source's assertion of that, we go with the sources. EEng 00:35, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

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