Talk:Maravar

There is no place for ambiguity here. Maravar refers only to Maravar caste. Rest were all different articles

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4UBXG9GWuAg/Ve7CmGveeXI/AAAAAAAACtQ/YtnS-kn9xUQ/s1600/Maravas_stock_pandya_chola_chera_kshatriyas.JPG — Preceding unsigned comment added by In kannan (talk • contribs) 05:56, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia the history has deleted by someone

The real history of maravars has been modified here????? As Wikipedia can be edited , some criminal has done the mistake Rajendar J (talk) 10:02, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

Not criminals. The article conforms to policies and guidelines such as verifiability, use of reliable sources, and neutrality. You're welcome to expand it provided that you, too, complete with such things. If you cannot edit it then you can make requests here for other people to add whatever material you think should be included. - Sitush (talk) 10:18, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

Political Change and Agrarian Tradition in South India, C. 1600-1801: A Case Study In kannan (talk) 04:29, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Maravar (Tamil: மறவர்) also "Maravan" (meaning "Grateful Warrior") are one of the oldest social groups to be mentioned by the Sangam Tamil literature[14]. This indicates an association with the Tamil land which is at least 2,000 years old. The writers of the Sangam Age place them in rural settlements withdrawn from cities. Maravars are the courageous breed and were involved in the major wars that Tamilnadu witnessed. The Kingdom of Ramnad was a Maravar kingdom and was ruled by the Setupati kings[15]. Ramanathapuram and Sivagangai districts are Maravar strongholds from ancient times. In kannan (talk) 04:35, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

I am lost here? You seem to have copy/pasted something but I don't know what your point is, sorry. - Sitush (talk) 23:57, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Entire writing about maravar page is totally wrong Are you getting Mr.sitush Abdulkather7 (talk) 18:57, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 April 2018

Maravar (Tamil: மறவர்) also "Maravan" (meaning "Grateful Warrior") are one of the oldest social groups to be mentioned by the Sangam Tamil literature[14]. This indicates an association with the Tamil land which is at least 2,000 years old. The writers of the Sangam Age place them in rural settlements withdrawn from cities. Maravars are the courageous breed and were involved in the major wars that Tamilnadu witnessed. The Kingdom of Ramnad was a Maravar kingdom and was ruled by the Setupati kings[15]. Ramanathapuram and Sivagangai districts are Maravar strongholds from ancient times.

Maravars are courageous breed and were involved in almost all the major battles and wars that ancient Tamilnadu witnessed. Maravars are found predominantly in the Southern districts of Tamilnadu viz., Madurai, Theni, Sivagangai, Ramanathapuram, Dindigul, Virudhunagar, Thirunelveli, Thoothukudi and Kanyakumari districts of Tamil Nadu. They ruled the vast land mass of Tamilnadu along with the coastal rulers,Paravars. Both these tribes seems to have common origin,Tamil nagas. The Southern martial arts of Kalarippayattu, Silambam, Varma Kalai have been practiced primarily by Nairs, Kallars, Thevars and Villavars(Nadans & Ezhavars) of erstwhile Travancore areas.

The Maravar have close relation with Kalabhars even though they Maravars are a non-aryan, non-Kalabhar group.Another aristocratic caste called Paravars are akin to Maravars. They were ancient rulers of Pandya kingdom of coastal land and inland from the First Sangam Tamil age. Their leaders were given the title "Meenavan" and "Pandyan" respectively. Edgar Thurston (1855–1935) a British museologist and ethnographer identified the use of the boomerang by Kallars and Maravars of South India.

Large number of Maravars served in the armies of many princely states of Kerala. But during the 18th and 19th centuries, most of them were assimilated in to the Tamil Padam Nair subcaste of the Nair community. The Maravar regiment of the Travancore army was known as "Maravar Padai", which supplemented Nair Pattalam, the larger indigenous military unit.[16] Tamil Padam Nair is recognized as a part of the Malayala Kshatriya social grouping. The Ramnad Zamindar's are accorded the title Sethupathi (protector of the Sethu bridge) even to this day. [edit] Pandiyan Dynasty

Historians postulate that Pandians are Maravar. The discovery of Indian copper plate inscriptions provided a relative abundance of new evidence for use in evolving a chronicle of India's elusive history[citation needed] [edit] Sub-divisions

There are 2 major subdivisions among the Maravar community. One is Appa Nattu Kondyankottai Maravar and another one is Chembiya Nattu Maravar. The Kondyan Kottai Maravars are related to the Vellalars and are still maintaining Killai(branches) as their sub sects. The Killai is inherited from mother. So a boy or girl will not marry in their same Killai. It is assumed that they are brother & sister. Such a practice is no longer prevailing amongst other maravars. The married women of kondyankottai maravers wear "Thali" (Thirumangalyam) in the shape of Shiva lingam. So it is called "Linga Thali". Most of the Tamil castes wear the same type of "Linga Thali".

The Chembiya Nattu Maravars are Surya vamsam[citation needed]. They are historically from Thanjavur. Kondayan kottai maravars women were having habits of maruthalli. But Chembiya Nattu Maravars women were having habit of Udankattai yeruthal (Sati which is now banned and hence not in practise). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chockalingam 610 (talk • contribs) 04:50, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

@Chockalingam 610: it's clear from the formatting that you copy-pasted this from somewhere. Where are you copying it from? MatthewVanitas (talk) 06:27, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

Reedit

Please read this page in a different language Forgetful (ethnic group) Maravar Kulam is a division of the caste system of the Goddess in Tamil Nadu. The three sects - Marwara, Kallar and Ahamtar - are called Mukkalathar. The oldest warriors of Tamil Nadu

Maravar

Pulittevan Particularly populated areas Southern Tamil Language (s) Tamil Religions Hinduism Related ethnic groups Mulakthathar, the Palestinians, who come under the Criminal Proverb Act, Peyarkkaranam

"Forget" in Tamil means "valor". Their caste was restricted to the work of people in the past. In the past, elephant forces, cavalry, and dressing were different parts of the combat divisions, but the success of the success was the same. Often known for their heroicity, they got the title of the Forget with the Battle of the Infantry.

population

In the Tamil Nadu, there are martyrs, including Paramalai Kallar, Ambalakar, Sivas, Aapanadu Kondinka Fort Maravara, Ambalakar (Suryaanur), Gandharvakottai Kallar, Gopalpal Kallar, Suriyar Surya Kallar,

Conventional

According to the earliest concepts, the Marathas who lived in the Ramanathapuram area made fun of them when Lord Rama invaded Sri Lanka. Because of this they are said to have received the special name 'Devas'. For a long time, he came to the temple of Ramanathapuram as the guardian of the 'Sethusamudram' (Rameswaram). That is why the name 'Sethupathi' is also the name of the king.

In the Ramanathapuram area there is no historical evidence of the existence of Ramanathapuram in the area where migrants lived first. However, they are considered to be a section of the segments of Tamil Nadu. There are also those who have forgotten in Ramanathapuram.

The first king of the Pulittevan Muvaravar who opposed the White's belonged to the ancient Marmara [2] clan. Those who forget their husbands are married to their daughter. Those who are wearing nosquitoes

Forgotten subdivisions The migrants were living in the fortress. So they were divided into several subdivisions according to the characteristics of those fortresses.

Akta Fortress is not forgetting, The Pope's Fortress is Forgotten, Karuthan Fort forgetting, The recall is not forgotten, The squirrel eczema forget, The salt fortress is forgotten, The Fortress is Forgotten, This includes categories.

Some of the main miscarriages are different sections

Forgotten zamins

The kings of the king who are still forgotten

Ramanathapuram - Sethupathi Sivagangai - Gauri Vallabha Udayar Thevar Pet monarchs Certified

^ The Official Population of All Most Backward Castes First-Minister Karunanidhi Explained Chennai, July 10, 2009 ^ Forgotten ^ The Official Population of All Most Backward Castes First-Minister Karunanidhi Explained Chennai, July 10, 2009 Esakkiraja7292 (talk) 03:21, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Reedit

Paradesi pasangala thappa edit panni Lock vera panringala Esakkiraja7292 (talk) 03:22, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Robbers

Please can someone explain the removal of

It could also refer to thieves or robbers since their history included highway robbery.

References

Plenty of sources note the Maravar's historic connections with robbery, so I'm guessing that is not the reason. If the problem is that the tags have been unresolved since October 2018, well, that is a piss-poor reason bearing in mind that a 60 second search of Google throws up plenty of relevant hits, even if they are in snippet view. So perhaps the issue is phrasing? In which case, amend the phrasing. - Sitush (talk) 22:20, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Maravar does not mean robber and the caste is not synonymous with Robbers. Maravan in Tamil means warrior. The sentence in question stated that Maravar can also refer to thieves or robbers which is incorrect. Nobody says "Maravan, maravan catch him..". So I removed it. Nittawinoda (talk) 03:21, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

Hm. So you didn't think to rephrase it, obviously. If you go back through the history of the article you will see how things got mangled, and we have to make allowances also for people whose grasp of the English language is not as good as yours or mine. I am going to reinstate it in a rephrased manner because what the contributor meant was that they have been traditionally associated with robbery. I can't see the sources they used but there are dozens of others, at least three of which I have on my bookshelf here. - Sitush (talk) 06:11, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

@Sitush:-Regardless of what your sources say about the Maravar being robbers I refuse to believe the whole community were by profession robbers and thieves. The traditional occupation of the Maravar was definitely not robbery. The Sethupathi rulers of the erstwhile Ramnad kingdom were Maravar by caste and I refuse to accept that they rose to such respected positions by simply robbing people. . A more detailed analysis and research is required to understand the standing and relation of the Maravar vis-a-vis the other communities. I would like to ping @Bishonen: and @Slatersteven: at this time as I think this a good place and time to explain what I meant by saying(on Bishonen's talk page and elsewhere) something along the lines of "..opposed to using British era sources however ..seems to be okay with adding information based on events that transpired during the Colonial period..". To begin with, I do not entirely know why there is a consensus against using British era sources but I recall reading that it was because of a variety of reasons like "Scientific racism", "not academic research" etc. I assume it was because the British, during the Colonial period in India, generally did or said something not always for the right reasons, sometimes for spreading the East India Company's hegemony, taxation and generally for a locus standi for their presence in India. The British, for example, classified the Maravar and some other similar communities as criminal tribes as the latter rebelled against British rule and so the Company tried to find a way to subdue and ostracize them by imposing restrictions, etc. This caused the Maravar to retaliate by attacking the British and the areas and people that were under the protection of the British. Now, coming back to the British sources regarding the Maravar during this time, I hope we're in agreement that they do not accurately depict the status of the Maravar as they sought to undermine the latter's history in order to subdue them, by acting as saviors of the people who were affected by the Maravar etc.. Now, a modern source that states that "the Maravar were traditionally associated with robbery" based upon their status and actions during the Colonial period is no less different. Therefore care must be taken before associating the Maravar with robbery or the at the very least should say something like "..they resorted to it for survival because of persecution by British..". I would not add this section about robbery unless it can be decisively shown that the Maravar were robbers from time immemorial. Nittawinoda (talk) 16:17, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

I am not sure the sources do say the word means robbers, only that they often were robbers. So no I do not think they support to purposed edit. One may say they (its hard to tell given the snippet view) were regarded (up till 1911) as a "criminal" caste (whatever that means). But I would like this verified by someone with access to the source.Slatersteven (talk) 16:33, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Nittawinoda: your sentence "Now, a modern source that states that 'the Maravar were traditionally associated with robbery' based upon their status and actions during the Colonial period is no less different" is an important part of your argument, so it's a pity that "no less different" doesn't make sense. Perhaps the spellchecker tripped you up? Please try to reword. As for your suggested "they resorted to it for survival because of persecution by British", that would be original research, POV, and in several ways unsuitable for an encyclopedia, and I'm surprised you don't see that. I don't see you proposing a source for it, either. Bishonen | talk 16:38, 31 January 2019 (UTC).

@Bishonen:, @Sitush:, @Slatersteven: I was able to find some sources for the related sub-caste of Maravar namely the Kallar_(caste) that says the following. I would imagine the same applies to Maravar.

According to Stuart H Blackburn, the image of the Kallar as a thieving caste and as a Criminal Tribe is distorted and the roots of this distortion lie in the early British Military contact with the Kallars.

According to David Dean Shulman,

..Stuart Blackburn convincingly shows how external pressures, especially those connected to the extension of the British Colonial rule, may have reduced the Kallar to the "wild Collerie" image popular in British writings and ultimately to the status of a Criminal Tribe.

References

Yes, I've seen those before. So what? I really don't think you are understanding this because you seem to be obsessed with the way the Raj treated certain groups in South India. No-one in the modern era has ever suggested that the Criminal Tribes Act was a good thing, etc and at present this article does not even mention it. However, whether it was a good thing or not is of no relevance to the fact that it happened and affected various communities, nor is it of any relevance to the fact that the Maravar had a reputation for robbery etc long, long before the Brits turned up. That is going into the article, whether you like it or not. - Sitush (talk) 16:30, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

I am saying that the association of robbery with the Maravar was a concoction by the British. Nittawinoda (talk) 16:45, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

And I am saying that you are not using the sources correctly, not even the ones you mention. Shulman is citing Blackburn, whom I suspect you have not read, and notes that the British may have caused something for the Kallar. You cannot say that they did, you cannot say Blackburn's opinion applies to the related Maravar community, and you can't say based on what you cite that they (the Maravar) didn't previously have a reputation. I'm getting very tired of having to explain the basics to you and remain convinced that you are approaching this and other caste-related topics with an agenda in mind: you're not reading round a subject but rather trying to prove or disprove specific things that seem to irk or please you. It is a classic POV pushing methodology. How much more simply can I put it? If different reliable sources say different things, we have to show them all. - Sitush (talk) 17:25, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

I have the books. I don't use snippet view in articles, let alone make guesses based on them and with half-cocked knowledge of the background, like some incompetent people do, and thus waste time diving down rabbit-holes. I will be saying whatever the books say, regardless of objections. Do you really think that Nicholas Dirks, for example, is unreliable? We already cite him, and I'll be taking the information from the very same book that we cite. He, for one, definitely says that they have been known for criminality, and specifically robbery, for centuries because that is what they did. Sure, probably not every single person in the community throughout all those centuries but a significant enough number to cause them to have been associated with it over a very long period of time. It is nothing to do with the bloody Raj and the Criminal Tribes Act - the situation existed hundreds of years before the arrival of the Brits. I think you'll find it in one of his sub-chapters that relate entirely to the Maravars, so probably around pp 60-80 of The Hollow Crown. Do you want me to send you a photo of me with the book? Or a photo of the > 5,000 books lined up on my shelves? It is ridiculous and I resent my integrity being questioned, even backhandedly. - Sitush (talk) 16:55, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

It does not matter if they are known for robbery, that is not what we are saying. Does he define the word as a Synonym for robber? That is what we are saying. As I said if it says "know as robbers and a Criminal caste" that is what we should say.Slatersteven (talk) 17:27, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

If does fucking matter. Keep up! Read the entire thread before commenting. - Sitush (talk) 17:29, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

Of course it matters, we cannot put words into sources mouths, and synth means we cannot extrapolate form sources. If they do not say it means Robber we cannot say it does. Now I have read and re-read this thread, and no where do I see anyone saying the sources say the word means robber.Slatersteven (talk) 17:34, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

For god's sake! If you can't be bothered reading the entire (short) thread then at least read each post up to and including mine of 06:11 today. We're moved on, as should also be obvious from subsequent messages. Also read WP:CIR. - Sitush (talk) 17:40, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

I was telling the person I replied to that whilst it does not say X it can be used (as long as the source says what I think it says) to say Y. It was not a reply (or even a rebuttal) to anything you had posted. MY mistake, I thought your post below mine was a reply to me, it was not, my mistake. I thus thought the post below mine was commenting on what I had posted. Let me make this clear, I do not questions the sources say they were regarded as robbers (or that they are RS), nor that we cannot say that.Slatersteven (talk) 17:48, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

Are you talking to me? I'd love to have a photo of you. Bishonen | talk 17:06, 31 January 2019 (UTC).

No, sorry, I mis-indented. Talking to Nittawinoda mainly, though Slatersteven needs to stop sticking his ill-informed oar in. There is a photo of me on Commons, which my detractors love to re-publish even though it is nothing special. Not sure why they think it is beneficial to their cause but I can confirm that it hasn't won me any modelling contracts. - Sitush (talk) 17:22, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

Oh, is it the group photo from a wikimeet where you lean against a piano holding a human finger? I've seen that, but can't find it again. Bishonen | talk 17:26, 31 January 2019 (UTC).

That's the one, with RexxS, Eric, Iridescent, Boing! etc. It was quite tasty, that finger, but a bit gristly in texture. - Sitush (talk) 17:28, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

I have just fixed that bad indenting. Sorry about that. - Sitush (talk) 17:32, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

Maravar and Kallar traditional occupation has always been marauding and robbery during medeival times. There has been agitations regarding their usurp qualities. I am trying to find better sources Sangitha rani111 (talk) 17:21, 3 February 2019 (UTC)Sangitha rani111

Actually the Maravar chieftains who latter were given the title of Raja by the British considered themselves as Bandits. The point is they themselves considered themselves as bandits, Will provide to support the fact that Maravar in medeival times were involved in robbery as livelihoood

https://books.google.com/books?id=cegr6zH9PFEC&pg=PA74&dq=maravar++bandits&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjX8dz3iqDgAhU5KDQIHdTLB9oQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=maravar%20%20bandits&f=false

In Page 74 the maravar record their won past as Bandits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sangitha rani111 (talk • contribs) 17:32, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Here in this source Maravar are tied to highway robbery during the sangam literature times https://books.google.com/books?id=qJCBDwAAQBAJ&pg=SL7-PA36&dq=maravar+sangam+highway+robbers&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwis8rrJjKDgAhUHGTQIHcv-CvMQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=maravar%20sangam%20highway%20robbers&f=false

We should include this in the article Sangitha rani111 (talk) 17:38, 3 February 2019 (UTC)Sangitha rani111

Maravars are robbers from time immemorial , The Maravars are occupants of the Palai Tinai. In the source it is clearly mentioned that the maravars main source of livelihood is systematic thieving and robbery, Page 281 , These are academic resources

https://books.google.com/books?id=H4q0DHGMcjEC&pg=PA281&dq=palai+maravar+robbery&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjdpfqGjqDgAhUDHnwKHSigCb0Q6AEIMDAB#v=onepage&q=palai%20maravar%20robbery&f=false Sangitha rani111 (talk) 17:45, 3 February 2019 (UTC)Sangitha rani111