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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Dimadick (talk | contribs) at 14:12, 15 June 2019. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.


One group versus another group?

What is the difference between a gentile middle eastern group fighting another gentile middle eastern group and a gentile middle eastern group fighting a jewish group? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.103.156.62 (talk) 00:15, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Changes to archive settings

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I have changed them to: 

{{User:MiszaBot/config
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Wikipedia provides some reasonably clear Talk page guidelines. One of the sections within the guidelines concerns: When to condense pages. It says: "It is recommended to archive or refactor a page either when it exceeds 16 KB, or has more than 10 main sections". At the point of this edit the page contained 11.9 KB The time setting remain at a very healthy 90 days. Gregkaye (talk) 15:32, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • I just want to add that I appreciate that some admin type Wikipedia pages have low level settings in "minthreadsleft" and, in this context, I can understand how a low level setting might have been installed here.
In my pov, talk pages like this connect to subjects to which a wide variety of views may be ascribed. It seems to me that adequate space should be given for the address of relevant issues and by a variety of editors. Gregkaye (talk) 10:01, 6 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:3D Test of Antisemitism which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 10:30, 28 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Blog

Jonney2000, rather than edit warring, please explain how on earth a blog under a pseudonym can be WP:RS. Not to mention one that includes such absurd statements such as:

  • "mostly by Arabs but also by some anti-Israel and anti-Zionist intellectuals in the West" => obvious well-poisoning
  • "close to 1 million Jews who lived in Arab lands prior to the establishment of Israel, after which they left or were expelled" => scholarly sources do not focus on expulsion given there was only one known case, it was small scale, and it was not focused on Jews
  • "But it’s also true that, in the course of these centuries, no Middle Eastern Jew, if asked whether he was an Arab, would have said yes, no matter how at home he felt in his environment." => A patently false statement that he disproves without acknowledgement later in the same paragraph. And the reference to "course of the centuries" is absurd given the paucity of research on this subject prior to the 20th century, a point which he acknowledges in the laziest possible fashion in the next paragraph.

These are obvious red flags of low quality pseudo-journalism.

Oncenawhile (talk) 00:55, 29 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    • Hillel Halkin is fine he is well known and of some stature. Much of the literature on this topic is very one-sided and not really about what happened after 1948 especially on the lunatic anti-Zionist side. Why do you want to force this one-sided polemic? Ella Shohat is a very good polemicist but it’s just too much.
    • It boggles the mind and insults the intelligence to imply that practically 100% of this population suddenly emigrated willingly. Arabs stole everything from many Mizrahi Jews many of whom had never hear of Zionism and not all immigrated to Israel. Shifting the blame the way Ella Shohat does is disgusting I want to throw up.
    • If you knew anything thing about this population you would know that Mizrahi do not like Arab nationalist and its not a Zionist conspiracy linked to the one million plan! You want Mizrahi to say ok now we will be “honorary Arabs” not going to happen.
    • Mizrahi wrote the Talmud and more, I hope you realize what that means as far as identifying as Arab and the clear distinctions which are made between Jews and non-Jews. They are not some foreign other. Jonney2000 (talk) 05:25, 29 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
1) What are Halkin's credentials on this topic? From the above, he appears to be an amateur
2) Of course they didn't "emigrate willingly". That is a straw man. Each country's emigration was complex but related to many things including decolonization and Zionist agitation. The expropriation of property came in most (if not all) cases after emigration deals were made between the original country and the Israeli government. These countries' governments did not want to lose the human capital, but with enough pressure they each unlocked their doors. Read Fischbach, who is a very balanced and reasoned scholar.
3) Yes I agree, but propaganda has a lot to do with this to. Most Mizrahi Jews of the younger generation have a poor understanding of their own history, and focused on the "neo lachrymose" version.
4) Too many people have no idea what an Arab is (and is not). Understand the history of Arab nationalism, and what being Arab means (and doesn't mean) today, and you will understand this.
Either way, your article is not WP:RS. Find a better source or remove it. Oncenawhile (talk) 15:44, 29 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Oncenawhile. Hillel Halkin and his blog are not wp:rs. Pluto2012 (talk) 21:35, 7 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
To be clear, Oncenawhile, it's true that many factors, including poverty, political instability, and the desire to live in the newly created Jewish state, helped led to the exodus of Jews from Arab countries, However, you seem to almost completely dismisses the persecution and anti-Semitism that occurred at the time (while seemingly placing most of the blame on "Zionist agitation"). I suggest you read the article Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries.
But getting back on topic, Hillel Halkin is (according to Wikipedia) an American-born Israeli translator, biographer, literary critic, and novelist, who has lived in Israel since 1970. He certainly is Pro-Israel, but his articles have been published in Commentary, The New Republic, The Jerusalem Post, Mosaic Magazine and is on the editorial board of the Jewish Review of Books. I'd say that qualifies him as a reliable source. Of course, there's no doubt that his perspective is skewed heavily in favor of Israel, but that doesn't automatically mean that his views/opinions are inadmissible here. Finally, this particular article was not published in a blog but rather in the The Forward. In summary, Halkin's views should be considered RS as far as Wikipedia is concerned, although citing him as the source of the criticism of Ella Shohat (as I have done in a recent edit) is a necessity.(Hyperionsteel (talk) 07:11, 9 February 2016 (UTC))[reply]
@Hyperionsteel: you are wrong to say "almost completely dismisses" and "most of the blame". My view on this (and, I hope, most things) is much more evenly balanced than that. There is an issue here though, which Michael Fischbach summarizes well:
"there is no doubt that Arab hostility toward Jews in the Middle East and North Africa left them feeling increasingly uneasy about their futures by the 1930s and 1940s. This uneasiness certainly affected their decisions on whether or not to emigrate. But the very political post-1948 debate over the origins and nature of Arab anti-Semitism, and the degree to which it alone was responsible for the Jewish exodus from the Arab world, can potentially obfuscate more than enlighten."[1]
Oncenawhile (talk) 10:52, 9 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Halkin is widely published as a literary critic and political commentator. For matters of historical fact we should cite historians. It's not like there aren't many to choose from. Zerotalk 08:21, 9 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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I find there is some ill-conceived language going on in this paragraph, let me quote it and explain:

By medieval standards, conditions for Jews under Islam were generally more formalized and better than those of Jews in Christian lands, in part due to the sharing of minority status with Christians in these lands. There is evidence for this claim in that the status of Jews in lands with no Christian minority was usually worse than their status in lands with one. For example, there were numerous incidents of massacres and ethnic cleansing of Jews in North Africa,[11] especially in Morocco, Libya and Algeria where eventually Jews were forced to live in ghettos.[12] Decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were enacted in the Middle Ages in Egypt, Syria, Iraq and Yemen.[13] At certain times in Yemen, Morocco and Baghdad, Jews were forced to convert to Islam or face death.[14]

The first two sentences speak of two distinct subjects, but the second one syntactically references the sub-sentence added by comma to the first, regarding the following examples as evidence for its thesis. Maybe it's just because I'm not a native speaker, but I was very much inclined to assume the second sentence, beginning with "there is evidence for this claim in that [...]", would refer to the thesis of the primary sentence, not to the proposed explanatory idea. Mainly because the first sentence raises the comparison of christian and muslim countries, but the further paragraph deals exclusively with the situation in muslim countries.

So here is what I would do: the first sentence lacks a citation, and should be ended before the comma. I'd then go on something like this: "A possible reason for this might be the sharing of minority status with Christians in predominantly muslim countries. There is evindence for this claim in that [...]" Then one might argue that this rewrite should have a citation for this claim not to be suspected original research, while the examples of course still hold. In case this was original research, I would just make it a paragraph about the atrocities and try to build one up for the comparative situation thingy of Jews in christian vs. Jews in muslim countries and the academic discourse on that.

I'd go ahead, but obviously the article is closed. Best wishes 

 --2A02:8108:8580:7736:C382:3BBC:1441:EC52 (talk) 18:01, 2 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 November 2018

the following source no longer leads to any information: https://www.adl.org/main_Arab_World/default.htm Anti-Semitism in the Arab World – a collection of materials updated regularly Bcsejtey (talk) 16:00, 20 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

 Done RudolfRed (talk) 00:42, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Why the insistence on using increasingly oxymoronic/archaic term "anti-semitism"?

Why not its functional & more accurate synonym, anti-Jewish? The insistence on using "anti-semitism" to describe conflict between two Semitic groups comes across as a deliberate attempt to provoke or flummox the reader. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1C0:C801:9FA0:B9BA:D85E:9C25:1575 (talk) 02:09, 2 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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