Talk:Kaaba

This is to the best of my knowledge and needs checking; any scholars of Islam want to take a look at this? The Anome 08:55 25 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Presumably at the antipodal point to the Kaaba, the Qibla is in all directions?

Interesting question. I reckon this point to be in the South Pacific, 230 miles from the nearest land, which is the Pitcairn Islands. -- Heron

My squint at a globe put it about midway between Tahiti and Pitcairn, in French Polynesia. Rummaging on the 'net[1] I found the nearest land to be Tematangi or Bligh Is., 140.62W 21.64S[2] 142.177.18.54 18:57, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Sounds like the answer may rest on the Islamic reckoning of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. On the other hand, one might be able to derive the answer by seeing which airlines serve Mecca from that point in the South Pacific. 168... 19:27 25 Jun 2003 (UTC)

---

If someone knows the exact coordinates of Kaaba, maybe they could put that into the article. That would make it possible to compute the qibla from any other location whose coordinates are known.

One reference [3] states 21° 25' 24" N, 39° 49' 24" E, and other less precise references approximate this closely. Does anyone have exact coordinates from a system such as GPS? -- The Anome 07:53, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

Well, I've used those numbers. If somebody has a more accurate update, they can correct it. --Chowbok 04:22, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Well You can see the Masjid Al Haram from Space, using Google maps [4] Maybe you can figure out the Long and Lat from that? - Abid Hussain [5]

I get 21°25'21.234"N × 39°49'33.996"E. --  Denelson83  15:24, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Religious groups who used to worship the Kaaba or used it as a focal point for prayer

Zora, you have reverted my edit without a valid justification, if you want to add my text to the other article, feel free, My subject was the Kaaba and apparently, muslim sources say it's been a saint object for pre-islamic arabs and sabeans, the articles speaks about the Kaaba therefore we HAVE to speak about ALL those who worshipped the Kaaba, I don't understand why you want to put only muslims in ths article and exlcude the others.

There are many futile details (f.e : the suppostion that ali was born in the kaaba) that you seem to well integrate into the article, but you remove important information concerning the past history of the Kaaba.

Here was my text:

Before muslims, the Sabeans and Pre-islamic Arabs used to have similar rituals as that of muslims :

Muslim writer Muhammad Shukri al-Alusi in his Bulugh al-'Arab fi Ahwal al-'Arab states that,

"The Sabeans have five prayers similar to the five prayers of the Muslims. Others say they have seven prayers, five of which are comparable to the prayers of the Muslims with regard to time [that is, morning, noon, afternoon, evening and night; the sixth is at midnight and the seventh is at forenoon]. It is their practice to pray over the dead without kneeling down or even bending the knee. They also fast for one lunar month of thirty days; they start their fast at the last watch of the night and continue till the setting of the sun. Some of their sects fast during the month of Ramadan, face Ka'ba when they pray, venerate Mecca, and believe in making the pilgrimage to it. They consider dead bodies, blood and the flesh of pigs as unlawful. They also forbid marriage for the same reasons as do Muslims." (Ibid., pp. 121-122)

Muhammad ibn 'Abdalkarim al-Sharastani in his Al-Milal wa al-Nihil:

"The Arabs during the pre-Islamic period used to practice certain things that were included in the Islamic Sharia. They, for example, did not marry both a mother and her daughter. They considered marrying two sisters simultaneously to be a most heinous crime. They also censured anyone who married his stepmother, and called him dhaizan. They made the major [hajj] and the minor [umra] pilgrimage to the Ka'ba, performed the circumambulation around the Ka'ba [tawaf], ran seven times between Mounts Safa and Marwa [sa'y], threw rocks and washed themselves after intercourse. They also gargled, sniffed water up into their noses, clipped their fingernails, plucked their hair from their armpits, shaved their pubic hair and performed the rite of circumcision. Likewise, they cut off the right hand of a thief. (Ibid., vol. 2 chapter on the opinions of the pre-Islamic Arabs as cited by al-Fadi, p. 122)

Hullo, Toira, please visit the history article, Pre-Islamic Arabia and argue about the history of the Kaaba and the Hajj there. I haven't been linking that article to other articles because it's not finished yet, but when it's in better shape, we can put a notice in this article saying, "For further discussion of pre-Islamic worship at the Kaaba, see Pre-Islamic Arabia. Then people who want a more detailed version can visit the more detailed article.

You can't just march in and insist that your material be placed exactly where you want it. Wikipedia doesn't work that way. We're trying to make a readable, usable resource for people, and not making articles too long and detailed is part of that. When you think that people are going to be saying to themselves, "MEGO", My Eyes Glaze Over, then it's time to put the material in another article. Zora 00:20, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I did not know that we had to put the new discussion at the bottom... don't see this as "insisinting" since I am not reverting back again and again what you revert, but why should sabeans be included in the were Pre-Islamic Arabia article since they were not arabs at the beginning, and why should Islam have the monoploy of this article, the Kaaba was worshipped by many people not only muslims. User:Toira

The pre-Islamic history of the Kaaba is hotly debated, as is the nature of the Sabaeans. I have read sources that say they were Nabateans, that is, Arabs.

Discussion of the Sabaean veneration of the Kaaba would be on-topic if there were STILL any Sabaeans worshipping there, or even if we knew who they were in the past. But given that the Sabaeans are long gone and no one knows for sure who they were, this is NOT the place to argue it.

Look, go to work on the Pre-Islamic Arabia article and argue the matter there. If you can convince all the other editors (not just me) that the Sabaeans are relevant to the Kaaba, we could add a para here. But not a long quotation! Zora 01:58, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to add to this as Zora reverted one of my edits too. The text was:

"There is a suggestion that the Kaaba is the site of a Vedic temple or shrine and indeed that much of the current Islamic ritual surrounding the Kaaba is derived from earlier Vedic worship focussing on the Black Stone, the "Shiva lingam" (literally: Shiva's penis, see eg [6])."

Now, like Toira says, the Kabaa has been a site of religious activity since long before Islamic ritual was started. Zora says that as we can't be certain of the details then they shouldn't be reported!! That's ludicrous. However, do note that in my edit I stated "There is a suggestion ..." to inidicate that whilst there are many sources for this information it is not easy to establish its verity. I think such info is extremely interesting and should be included here.

Having said that, Toira does appear to have added more info than was necessary going a little off-topic.

If you want to reduce the information on the Kabaa page then perhaps one line for each people group linked with the Kabaa - then a page for each with their history in relation to the stones / site.

Enough with the "Kaaba as Hindu temple" nonsense. There is no evidence for this. None. I'm right now reading a recently published history of pre-Islamic Arabia, with copious cites from the literature and reference to archaeological surveys (Arabia and the Arabs: From the Bronze Age to the Coming of Islam, Robert G. Hoyland; Routledge, 2001) and there's no mention of this Hindu theory. It's not notable. Zora 18:12, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Inside the Kaaba?

As the Kaaba is a building, what is inside it? Does anyone ever go in? If anyone reading knows these things it would be good to see them included in the article. — Trilobite (Talk) 17:39, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The Ka'aba is not completely empty. The building is opened twice a year for a ceremony known as "the cleaning of the Ka'aba." This ceremony takes place roughly 15 days before the start of Ramadan and the same period of time before the start of the annual pilgrimage. The inside of the building is clad and floored with marble to about half its hight and covered with a green cloth with gold embroidered verses of the Qu'ran for the rest. On a cross beam there are a number of lamps and there is also a small table for incense burners, otherwise there is nothing else. The marble cladding is perfumed with scented oil, the same used to perfume the black stone. A number of tablets with Qu'ranic inscription are inset in the marble. The keys to the Ka'aba are held by the Sheibani family who have had this honour since the time of the prophet. Members of the family greet visitors to the inside of the Ka'aba on the occasion of the cleaning ceremony. A small number of dignatories and foreign diplomats are invited to participate in the ceremony. Inside the Ka'aba visitors pray in the direction of the outside walls. Normally there is no other occasion when people can enter the building except when the Kiswa or black cloth covering the Ka'aba is changed during the Hajj. The Governor of Mecca leads the team who ritually clean the structure during the ceremony with simple brooms. Source: I have had the honour of participating in this simple but moving ceremony and praying inside the structure.Wildbe 09:13, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

you say "otherwise there is nothing else" - various sources suggest that some writings inside derive from pre-islamic poetry festivals. Presumably Wildbe you read Arabic and recognise which Surah the inscriptions come from ... or no? Also, which inscriptions would be very interesting as they would then, being at an islamic focal point, appear to have a importance above all other islamic writing?! Can you recall? pbhj 19 Feb 2006

Excellent questions. Perhaps any experts reading could also clarify how "50 ft. high by 35 ft long by 40 ft" makes a cube... Do we need to change that to "roughly cuboid"? –Hajor

It's Clearly not a perfect Cube, and inside is just calligrapic artwork from the Qur'an. It's centuries old and priceless. It's Fairly small, and I've always wondered how 300 odd 'idols' could fit in there, but apparently they did. You can go in but it's not advised to do so on hajj, because it's too crowded and dangerous, so if you wanna see it you should go on an Umrah tour.

The 360 idols were located at the Kaaba, but not inside the 'sanctuary'. They were placed in niches on the inside of the surrounding wall.

The idea that they formed a 'zodiac "machine"' of some sort is too vague for me: What is a zodiac machine?

Qibla

While the first Qibla was Jeusalem, it could not have been in the direction of the Al-Aqsa mosqua, as that did not exists at the time (As we know it). The "farthest Masjid, or place of worship" the Jewish Temple of Soloman, or Temple Mount, and during the night voayge the Hadiths say the Jews mocked him and asked him to descripe what he saw there and he supposedly described it perfectly, and they supposedly converted.

Abraham

From the article: "According to tradition, the Kaaba was built by the prophet Ibrahim (Abraham) and his son Ishmael. However, there is no evidence of this."

Surely there could be a more sensitive way of phrasing this. After all, tradition is evidence of sorts, even if unreliable and not determinative. -- Cimon 01:52, Nov 27, 2004 (UTC)

I said to myself: given the central place of the Kaaba in muslim practice, this must be in the scripture, not just "according to tradition". So, I googled my way to an online version of the Quran, where I found chapter 22. The Pilgrimage and in it the following verses:

26. Behold! We gave the site, to Abraham, of the (Sacred) House, (saying): "Associate not anything (in worship) with Me; and sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or stand up, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer).

27. "And proclaim the Pilgrimage among men: they will come to thee on foot and (mounted) on every kind of camel, lean on account of journeys through deep and distant mountain highways;

28. "That they may witness the benefits (provided) for them, and celebrate the name of Allah, through the Days appointed, over the cattle which He has provided for them (for sacrifice): then eat ye thereof and feed the distressed ones in want.

29. "Then let them complete the rites prescribed for them, perform their vows, and (again) circumambulate the Ancient House."

30. Such (is the Pilgrimage): whoever honours the sacred rites of Allah, for him it is good in the Sight of his Lord. Lawful to you (for food in Pilgrimage) are cattle, except those mentioned to you (as exception): but shun the abomination of idols, and shun the word that is false,-

Clearly verses 26 and 29 can be interpreted as a claim that the Kaaba was built by Abraham. I don't have access to a more modernized translation nor to the original, nor do I read Arabic, so I will have to leave it at that, but to me it seems that the quotation from the article is not just insensitive but wrong. —Miguel 03:44, 2004 Nov 27 (UTC)

That Prophets Abraham and Ishmael have built the Kaaba is clearly stated in the Quran in Surat Al-Baqara, Ayas 127-129 [7]. You are right, the wording is insensitive and quite unnecessary indeed, since in most of the articles about religion there can be no material proof except the respective tradition. --Abdousi 06:29, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

"since in most of the articles about religion there can be no material proof except the respective tradition" this is of course true in most matters of religion in which there is no physical material evidence. The building is evidence in and of itself and no doubt an independent arabic archaeologist could tell you the period of its construction if they had access. Certainly "no independent evidence of this" or "no evidence outside of tradition for this" would be accurate.

Qibla redirect to kaaba is incorrect

I was looking for Qibla and I was redirected to Kaaba. This is incorrect. Kaaba is current Qibla. Doesn't mean it was qibla for all time qibla should have a small informative article on Qibla with links to 'Aqsa' and 'Kaaba'.

Zain 21:30, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Go on then!

architectural history

If we ignore the legend that Abraham built the Kaaba, Muslim historical tradition says that the first Kaaba in this place was built in the early sixth century by the tribe of Gurhum. Its shape was that of a rectangle, with a semi-circle attached to one of the shorter sides. It was not nearly as high as the modern Kaaba.

The second Kaaba was built in 608 by the people of Mecca, and had the same shape, size and orientation: towards Jerusalem. It was higher than the first, about nine meters. Six pillars supported the roof. It had two doors on opposite sides, and probably some windows. It was destroyed during the failed Umayyad seige of Mecca in 683.

The third Kaaba was built immediately afterwards by az-Zubair. This time, a roughly square portion of the rectangle was built higher than the rest of the building. This part was now as high as the Kaaba of today (about 15 meters). Its roof was supported by three pillars, it still had two doors, and a number of windows. Inside, the square part was connected to the remainder by a wide arch.

The fourth Kaaba is the one we see today. (It has been completely rebuilt several times, but no more major architectural changes were made.) It was built to the order of the Umayyad Khalif Abdelmalek around 692. Abdelmalek set out to build the Kaaba to the prophet Muhammad's own specifications. The semi-cirular part was torn down to a hight of a few feet. The low wall that was left standing can still be seen today. The part between the square and the semi-circle was removed altogether. The arch was bricked up, as were all the windows and the door on the south-west side. The lowest two meters of the other door were also bricked up, so that today one needs a ladder to go through it.

I think this may be a bit too much detail though.

P.S. The last rebuild was in 1627.

Can whoever wrote this sign it or provide a link? I think the secular history of the structure is vitally important to the article and wholly underrepresented at present. Ombligotron 13:40, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Major revision

I removed some material re idols, as I don't believe that it's academically verifiable. I think it might just be Muslim tradition, though I could be wrong. I removed material about Mecca as a great center of international trade, as that is now believed to be pious exaggeration. If we're not going to give all sides of it, we should just leave it out. That's better done in the article on Mecca, in any case.

I also removed a para about the wonder of the Kaaba that I thought was too pious Muslim POV. I reorganized into sections and added some material that one editor had put into the talk page. It's a big reorg and could probably be improved. Zora 20:55, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

Given that all Muslims have to go, according to their religion, to Mecca, once in their lives, it seems extremely plausible that it would become a great centre of international trade, simply due to the large numbers of wide rangingly foreign people present there. 81.156.176.226 19:04, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

I guess I wasn't clear. I'm referring to the pre-Muslim Mecca. Mecca has never been a trade depot SINCE Muhammad. Patricia Crone wrote a book contra the old "Mecca was the most powerful city in Arabia" concept. Zora 01:06, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Zora, the whole idea of Banu Ummayad resisting Islam is due to that they feelt their idols being the source of the trade. If you are going to ommit that, you are ommiting a big part of how Muslims see on the Ummayad motivation on why they opposed monotheism. If you feel its non-sens, give it a "muslims belive", dont delet it. I mean, the caravans going to yemen and syria, the non-war month... its all part of the kabaa. --Striver 03:00, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

The article may not include as much detail as you want, but there are enough links to other articles that people can explore if they want more. We can't squeeze all of the history of Islam 600-632 in there! Do you want to suggest some links that should be there and aren't? (Be warned in advance that I don't think the Sunni/Shi'a conflict should be shoehorned into here!)

It was the Quraysh as a whole, not just the Umayyads, who resisted Islam. Zora 03:50, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Well, it can just be stated that the Kabaa and its idols is belived by Muslims to be the economical base of the Ummayad. Furthermore, Banu Hashim is also a part of Quraish and they resisted the Ummayad.

--Striver 17:35, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Striver, not all of the Banu Hashim were originally Muslim, just some of them. Furthermore, there were more branches to the Quraysh genealogy than just Abd Shams (of which the Umayyads were just a sub-clan) and Hashim. There were also Nawfal and al-Muttalib. Zora 23:51, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Pictures?

Are there any pictures showing the Kaabaa without it's black coverings? Commking July 11 2005

Possibly, but I don't know where one would go to find PUBLIC DOMAIN pictures of that type. Zora 05:20, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Kaaba as Hindu temple

One editor -- I believe it must be Tuxthepenguin, sometimes editing as an anon -- seems to believe that the Kaaba was a Hindu temple, and periodically edits the Kaaba page to add this belief.

Wikipedia tries to be NPOV, and include the arguments from all widespread beliefs, but this belief is so minority as to be imperceptible to those who don't share it. I have NEVER EVER seen it advanced by anyone other than the anon. It is non-notable, and doesn't deserve inclusion. Tux, if you can make thousands of converts and be featured in Time magazine, come back and add the info re your beliefs. Otherwise, please don't try to use the article as a soapbox. Zora 21:43, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I've heard it stories that it might have been a hindu temple too.--66.114.207.162 18:37, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Me too. Zora, you seem to contradict yourself: NPOV means include widespread beliefs [Yes!] but you think you're the last bastion of what is notable [No!]. I don't share this belief, I think it's an interesting possibility. But then I don't share the belief that Abraham built the Kabaa either. Both these possibilities appear to have equal weight (popularity doesn't demonstrate truth), what's more they aren't even mutually exclusive (which shouldn't matter).

If it's a notable belief, then there should be multiple mentions of it on websites and in books. Come back with some links and references and then we can discuss notability again. Zora 17:52, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

This belief actually is not that widespread, except among hardcore Hindu fanatics (no offense to Hindus in general). I find it in bad taste that people are hijacking articles of other religious series such as Islam and claiming holy places such as the Kaaba as from somewhere else. How would one like it if we put down the old Christian claim that Hinduism was a corruption of Christianity and that Krishna and Yashoda were Jesus and Mary? Please! Kaaba is an Islamic monument and that should be what this article is about. This Vedic temple nonsense is not a major controversy anywhere except among Hindu nationalists who have stretched the truth of Islamic destruction of Hindu temples to include Islamic structures outside of South Asia as well. Afghan Historian 20:50, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

read this article http://www.dkonline.tk/ it was written by By P.N. Oak (Historian) who is neither a muslim nor a hindu (click on Ka Aba a Hindu temple?) 18 july 2006

That site greets you with "dk online. a complete vedic solution" (in Nagari-styled Roman letters). And as for P. N. Oak, please take a look at this. So much for Oak not being Hindu (or for POV). Being a historian myself and reading that article, I'd say - after a first glance - that it's complete and utter rubbish, if not bland academic forgery. -- Kavaiyan <°)))o>< 18:44, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, and take a look at this here, too: [8] --Kavaiyan <°)))o>< 00:22, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Why?

Does anyone know why the Ka'aba was built in the first place? Obviously there will be a difference between secular academic views and religious views, but neither are in the article 81.156.176.226 18:57, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Kaa'ba built by ... and for ... ?

From what I can gather, Allah (God) ordained a place on Earth to be a focal point of worship; Adam built this place of worship (not sure if it was called the Kaa'ba at this stage). Later, Abraham and Ishmael rebuilt it and Abraham is considered the true founder of the Holy Shrine (according to the Qur'an) - according to the link I've added. I'm not going to put this into the article (yet), as I want to check the details of this and finding other reliable sources --Mpatel 17:33, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Controversial section on people born in Kaaba

Regarding the new section that's been dumped here:

• Firstly, it's not well presented; just a list of names and external links.
• Some of the the external links appear to be pro-Shia/Sunni websites; nothing wrong with this per se (well, maybe POV issues here), just that some of them appear to be unreliable (no sources given in them). I'm going to remove some of them, if enough people agree on this (I'll wait a week).
• The whole issue of who was born in the Kaaba seems to be controversial. The section should go a little deeper into this. For example, where did the controversy come from ? Is it just a manifestation of the Sunni/Shia split or something else ? --Mpatel 12:00, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

---

This is the result of a Shi'a user, Striver, who was trying to insert the "fact" that Ali was born in the Kaaba into the Ali article. Told that this was folklore, he created an article called "List of people born in the Kaaba". The article was put up for deletion; it was deleted and the material in the article was moved here.

Striver is also fond of "proving" things by citing hadith, and his article consisted mostly of assertions and (da'if) hadith references.

It does seem to be a widespread Shi'a folk belief that Ali was born in the Kaaba, and I think that it could be mentioned in a few sentences in this article. I think the rest of it should be deleted, though that may evoke the wrath of Striver. Zora 13:03, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

I see. In fact, I'm going to leave the links which have reliable sources, but I will delete the rest immediately. --Mpatel 13:19, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Sources

This issue has to be dealt with: I've deleted a statement regarding some scholars' views that the Qibla was changed as a result of some rift between Muhammed (pbuh) and the Jews as I've never come across this before (it's not well-known, at least) - if there's a reliable reference, for the claim, then please provide it. I did not delete the meteorite issue, as I have a few references (but not with me) which I will include. --Mpatel 17:34, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

I would have to search to find references, but I believe that a number of Western scholars assert a connection between Muhammad's difficulties with the Jews of Medina, and the change of qibla. It's not just kookery. Zora 00:02, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

added the arabic text.... (about the kaaba in arabic)

i've left the notice at the top in case anyone disagrees with what i've done or how i did it... --GNU4Eva 04:36, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Striver's removal of "Most Sunni ..."

Striver removed the sentence re Sunni not believing that anyone, Ali or Hakim, was born in the Kaaba. I was going to write an indignant para detailing how wrong he was, but some googling convinced me that he was right! I found several Sunni sites praising Hakim and asserting that he had been born in the Kaaba.

Hakim seems to have been a very influential and wealthy Meccan who didn't convert to Islam until Mecca had submitted to Muhammad. Muhammad was extremely concerned to win him over and treated him with great kindness. Hakim is the purported source of the hadith re "not selling what is not with you", which is the root of a great deal of Islamic commercial law. Hakim's evidence would otherwise be deprecated because he was an opponent of Muhammad and on the surface of it, an opportunistic convert, so he's been given the extra distinction of being born in the Kaaba, which strengthens the hadith. I sense scholarly busybodies at work here. Zora 22:53, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

"treated him with great kindness" ... I wish I knew what exactly that was a euphamism for!

Better (more instructive) pics ?

I think it would be a good idea to (either replace the second pic, as it seems irrelevant, or) add a pic showing a (distant) shot of the Kabba with all the pilgrims praying (the 'concentric circles' effect). Reason: the universal prayer direction is brought out and this is the main point of the Kaaba and hence should be emphasised. I'm not too familiar with downloading pics on WP, especially copyright issues, so I invite more knowledgable Wikipedians to pursue this. ---Mpatel (talk) 15:22, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

Sorry to be so slow in replying. I was showing the town to visitors. There's a toolbox on the left side of the screen, with a link to UPLOAD FILE. Click there and follow directions. I've done it a few times and it's worked -- I think. I still haven't figured out to do the Public Domain notice. Get the picture up first and then we'll see. Zora 07:50, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Not a problem. Ok, I've uploaded 3 pics of the Kaaba - copyright unsure:

• http://www.webislam.com/Descarga/Imagenes/Imagen_Texto/kaaba.htm

• http://users.ign.com/about/GIA-Gamer?boards=ign

• http://www.toursaudiarabia.com/images/kaaba-1.html

The first one is probably adequate for our purposes, the second one is outstanding (but the Kaaba is tiny), the third one is really about the cleaning ceremony. If they are all ok (copyright), then we may as well use the 3rd and either the 1st or 2nd. The page for the second one also contains many other great pics of mosques. ---Mpatel (talk) 17:02, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

---

I like ALL the pics but ... there's a big problem if they aren't public domain. We can't just claim fair use, or ASSUME that the owners of the pics wouldn't mind. Everything in Wikipedia is given away freely, which means that owners of commercial sites can, and do, copy from WP. The owners of the pics might be highly distressed to find THEIR pics on commercial sites, being sold as clip art, whatever. We have to use either material that's pre-1923 or donated by the artists/photographers themselves. Wikipedia has a continual problem with copyviolations (copyvios) due to editors assuming that they can just cut-n-paste anything found on the web, text and pictures. Not so. Zora 21:23, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Ok. Should I remove the pics I've put on this talk page and just give weblinks to them until we've determined for sure if they are ok to use ? ---Mpatel (talk) 09:01, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

That sounds like a good plan. I hope the disappearance will only be temporary. Often, religious sites are happy to have us use their pics. Zora 10:22, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Kiswah redirected to Black Stone - why ?

Forgive my ignorance, but what has the Kiswah got to do with the Black Stone ? As far as I'm aware, the Kiswah is a cloth that's used to cover the Kabah - as stated in the article - but it's relation to the Black Stone seems non-existent (apart from the fact that they are both black, but that means nothing - I think). I await enlightenment... ---Mpatel (talk) 17:16, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

That's a silly redirect. I think that Kiswah deserves its own article. Details of how the cloth is woven and embroidered, then cut up and distributed as relics, would be interesting and useful. Of course, as a seamstress, I'm interested in anything having to do with cloth. Zora 21:19, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Unify spelling

The article has both the spelling "Kaaba" and "Kabaa". Shouldn't the article just use one spelling? Which is preferred? --Eliasen 23:07, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

I think Kaaba is preferred. The problem is that there are various systems of transliteration from Arabic, no one system is widely-used, and people often just wing it. Zora 02:33, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

I think Ka'aba is preferred as Kaaba rimes with Kahba, which means bitch in some Arabic dialects (North African slang for bitch). The good example is Koran/Qur'an. Cheers -- Svest 23:02, September 12, 2005 (UTC)  ^{Wiki me up&#153;}

Who built the Kaaba?

According to the article, it is believed that Adam was the one to build the Kaaba. Just at the following line, it says that according to the Koran, the Kaaba was built by Ibrahim and his son Ishmael. This is a very big contradiction as noboby would claim that it was built by Adam except the Muslims! Did I miss something or I am just being a stupid ignorant?! Cheers Svest 22:55, September 12, 2005 (UTC)  ^{Wiki me up&#153;}

Hi Svest. Actually, it says Adam was the first to build such a place of worship (not necessarily that he was the first to build a cubical structure called the Kaa'ba). It is a matter of definitions: the Kaa'ba is the present structure, whereas Adam built the first place of worship. After this place was built, it was corrupted, destroyed etc. and Ibrahim and his son Ishmael built the big stone building we call the Kaa'ba. Hope this clears up any misconceptions. Cheers. ---Mpatel (talk) 16:54, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

It makes sense now of course. My question was a bit ironic indeed. I don't know exactly how we can put that in focus to let readers know and not let them be confused. Cheers Mpatel. -- Svest 16:59, 14 September 2005 (UTC)  ^{Wiki me up&#153;}

Kaaba in Pagan times

I've been talking with my history professor here at Colby College (http:/www.colby.edu). I don't have a source right now, but I have confidence that before the advent of Islam, the Kaaba was said to have housed over 300 different gods, of which Allah was only one. Does anyone have a source on this? If not, I will go and get it myself, later.--Zaorish 01:04, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

365 idols.

He destroyed all the idols in the Kaba, and gave a general amnesty to all his enemies in the town. [9]

http://www.google.se/search?hl=sv&q=365+idols&btnG=Google-s%C3%B6kning&meta=

I don't want to raise any hackles, but I'm curious to know: are there any pre-Islamic sources that mention the Kaaba, since it's supposed to be such an old structure? I don't mean to insinuate that it is not pre-Islamic. I'm just wondering if there's anything like a Xenophon or a Herodotus for the region that mentions something like the Kaaba in the centuries before the advent of Islam.

two doors

This needs to be represented

Quotes:

Reply Three - Hadhrat 'Ali (as) was merely adhering to the Sunnah of Rasulullah (s)

We read in Sahih al Bukhari, Book of Knowledge Volume 1, Book 3, Number 128:

Narrated Aswad:

Ibn Az-Zubair said to me, "Ayesha used to tell you secretly a number of things. What did she tell you about the Ka'ba?" I replied, "She told me that once the Prophet said, 'O 'Ayesha! Had not your people been still close to the pre-Islamic period of ignorance (infidelity)! I would have dismantled the Ka'ba and would have made two doors in it; one for entrance and the other for exit." Later on Ibn Az-Zubair did the same.

Comment

Was it incumbent on Rasulullah (s) to re-design the Ka'aba, Yes or No? If it was not then why did Rasulullah (s) say 'Had not your people been still close to the pre-Islamic period of ignorance (infidelity)! I would have dismantled the Ka'ba and would have made two doors in it'. If it was compulsory then why did Rasulullah (s) fail to carry out this religious duty on account of his fear of the reaction by the newly converted Sahaba?

http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/fadak/en/chap5.php

--Striver 18:04, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Also:

Imam Nawawi says in his commentary of this Hadeeth, in his Sharh Muslim Volume 1 page 429 Bab Naqs al Kibt wa Bana:

"This Hadeeth proves principles of Ahkam. When two issues conflict with one another, when a problem that carries benefit, conflicts with another, support should be given to that option that has wider support. Rasulullah saw a benefit in reconstructing the Ka'aba. He (s) also feared Fitnah from the new Muslims, who carried the risk of them becoming apostates, which is why he abandoned this beneficial matter and chose not to reconstruct the Ka'aba".

--Striver 18:12, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

demolish

we also need to include that yaizds army shoot flaming catapult shots against ibn zubair, even though it is haram to kill anything there. and something about future raids stealing the black stone. --Striver 18:07, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

History of the Kaaba

I think there is a good case for making a list of the various reconstructions and discussing their ground plans. I think the info is on one of the sites in the links. However, discussing the siege of Mecca quite outside the scope of the article.

The history of the Grand Mosque would also be a useful subject. I'm not sure I've looked at the Grand Mosque article.

The siege of Mecca could be discussed under the history of Mecca; I definitely haven't looked at that article. Something should be said about the way that the Saudis razed most of the old buildings and replaced them with highways. Lovers of architecture were appalled. Zora 01:24, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

The siege is relevant, thins the Kaaba was hit with firebolts. That is not supposed to happen, and therefore notable. --Striver 02:35, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

You might think it's relevant because the siege was mounted by Yazid I, whom the Shi'a hate. Would you be OK with saying that the Kaaba was burned in the course of siege and that it was not clear who was responsible -- without linking to Yazid I? Of course, I'm not saying that I think the siege is relevant, whether Yazid I is mentioned or not. I'm still not sure it is. Zora 03:12, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Whadever, link it to whadever appropriate place you want, i have other battles on my hands. But the event is notable, and you cant deny it. --Striver 03:38, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Lack of current scientific theories

Aren't there a big lack of real archeological and historical theories here? "According to Islamic tradition" and "According to the Qur'an" is just the muslim view point of the History of the Kaaba. But I think that a Wiki article about the subject have to contain some scientific research too - not just religious traditions and beliefs. Isn't it very important that a place like Wiki actually sticks to providing accurate and up-to-date ideas and theories about things like these?

I was also thinking that, which is why I posted this for a different section: I don't want to raise any hackles, but I'm curious to know: are there any pre-Islamic sources that mention the Kaaba, since it's supposed to be such an old structure? I don't mean to insinuate that it is not pre-Islamic. I'm just wondering if there's anything like a Xenophon or a Herodotus for the region that mentions something like the Kaaba in the centuries before the advent of Islam.

There's a book on pre-Islamic Arabian history, by Hoyland, that might have some info. I just haven't finished reading the book. The problem is that the Hijaz was of little interest to Greek, Roman, or Persian historians, so that there's really not much there. Crone's book on Meccan trade also surveys the history and finds nothing much.

Lack of written history could be supplemented by archaeological work but ... just how far do you think an archaeologist would get with a proposal to excavate the Kaaba and the Grand Mosque? Zora 00:14, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Born in Kaaba

The section is not accurate as its stands. Any objection to me changing it to this?

Muslim sources claim that an early Muslim was actually born in the Kaaba. There are two versions. One more prominently narrated, regarded as authentic by Sunni and Shia, claims that Ali ibn Abu Talib, Muhammad's son-in-law, was born in the Kaaba. The other claim, regarded as authentic by only Sunnis, states that Hakim ibn Hizam, a rich Meccan convert to Islam was born there.

Shia belive Ali was the only one born there, and the Hakim ibn Hizam narration is only a fabrication in order to inflate honor from Muhammad's household, the Ahl al-Bayt.

--Striver 07:32, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Extremely strong objection. It's POV and furthermore, you have misused the word "inflate". Zora 07:43, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

OK, then lets talk about it. Why is it pov? And what better word can we use? Just listing the objections does not help... --Striver 09:00, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

It's POV because it is arguing that "Ali was born in the Kaaba" is a majority opinion. I do not think that you are going to find many Sunni agreeing to it, regardless of a website here or there. You are also using your repeated ploy, "Sunni and Shi'a agree, so it must be true." First of all, there's the REST of the human race, not to mention the academic historians, who either don't care or regard it as pious fabrication. Second, a handful of credulous late medieval clerics don't speak for all contemporary Sunnis.

The statement in the current version seems entirely adequate to me. It indicates that Shi'a believe that Ali was born in the Kaaba. Trying to CONVINCE readers that Ali was born in the Kaaba is an attempt to use Wikipedia for a soapbox. Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not Wikipedia is not a propaganda machine. Zora 10:15, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. Now, to my rebutal:

It does not say that it is a majority oppinion, it only says:

"Muslim sources claim that an early Muslim was actually born in the Kaaba. There are two versions. One more prominently narrated"

And that is factual, the narrations where Ali is born are much more numerous, and also more used in Sunni literature. Nowhere does it state "it is a majority oppinion". It does not touch about the oppion of people, only about the use of the sources. Reagrding the oppion of people, i have no comment or knowledge, and are not talking about it. For example, we have Sunni site Witnespioneer talking about Ali being born theree, and it says he was born there uniqly. Al-Hakim deemed the Ali narration to be authentic, and we also have narration where Ali claims he was born there. Also, there are very few people that even know about the claim that the other guy was born there. That makes the Ali narration more numerous and more popular. How popular is not the issue.

Regarding "Sunni and Shi'a agree, so it must be true", i said no such thing. I just stated a fact. Ill change it to reflect non-Muslim oppinion.

"a handful of credulous late medieval clerics don't speak for all contemporary Sunnis". Yes, in fact they do. Bukhari and Muslim are both older than Hakim, but hold absolute authority about Sunnis belives. The age of the scholars is irrelevant. I gave you one scholar authenticating it. If you claim some other Sunnis scholar deemed the narrations as week, you are welcomed to tell whom that scholar is.

regarding "The statement in the current version seems entirely adequate to me.". It goes like this:'

Some Islamic sources claim that an early Muslim was actually born in the Kaaba. Shia Muslims claim that Ali ibn Abu Talib, Muhammad's son-in-law, was born in the Kaaba, and only Ali. Some Sunni have countered that claim by saying that the child was not Ali, but Hakim ibn Hizam, a rich Meccan convert to Islam. The Shia claim this as an example of history being changed or suppressed in order to detract honor from Muhammad's household, the Ahl al-Bayt.

its is not as accurate, since it claims that sunnis "countered that claim", and that is not the case. Sunnis dont persive the other guy being born there as a "countering", you are welcome to show where they do so. Also, as i have told, Sunnis have stated Ali was born there both in their biograpies and by their scholars. They somehow regard both as authentic.

Also "changed or suppressed" is not accurate either, since they dont deny Ali being born there. That is why i wrote "inflate", like in "the more people born there, the less special it is". I would appreciate a better prose for making the same point.

it is also less informative, since it does not tell wich version is more numerous or popular.

Regarding "Trying to CONVINCE readers that Ali was born in the Kaaba is an attempt to use Wikipedia for a soapbox. Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not Wikipedia is not a propaganda machine." Where does the text try to convince anyone of Ali being born there? Could you please show me the pov sentence?

How about this:

Muslim sources claim that an early Muslim was actually born in the Kaaba. There are two narrations.

One claims that Ali, Muhammad's son-in-law, was born in the Kaaba. That narration is more numerous and more popular. It has been regarded authentic by both Sunni and Shia scholars.

The other claim, regarded as authentic by only Sunnis, states that Hakim ibn Hizam, a rich Meccan convert to Islam was born there. Shia belive Ali was the only one born there, and the Hakim narration is only a fabrication in order to trivialize Alis honor.

Non-Muslim are in general sceptical regarding both narrations.

Comments?

--Striver 11:14, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

---

No, that is not OK. You cannot make statements about what Sunnis believe or accept. You are not a Sunni. You do not read Sunni books. You cannot represent Sunnis.

I will accept that many Shi'a believe that Ali was born in the Kaaba, however. Not all -- Reza Aslan doesn't mention it, for one thing.

I don't have to SHOW you what is POV about your statements. I don't have to convince you. I don't think that there IS any way of getting through to you. Let's just say that if you try to use the Kaaba article as a Shi'a soapbox, I'll do what it takes to stop you. Zora 13:14, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Is that it? Your answear is:

1) I may not edit on the sunni view, since i am not Sunni.

2) You do not need to tell me what is objectionable, however you will revert it if i add it.

3) My sourced statements are a "try to use the Kaaba article as a Shi'a soapbox".

Have i understood you correctly? --Striver 11:08, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

No, you haven't. Hows about this: Let ME start two articles on the two points re Ali on which we are clashing: on the first male Muslim and on the born in the Kaaba belief. I'll pick the titles (after some thought) and set up a framework. Then there's room for all the stuff you want to cite and room for counterarguments. This stuff does NOT belong in the Kaaba article, and it would unbalance the Ali article too. I think this kind of breakout of the most controversial stuff worked OK with the Muhammad article (where we set the Aisha age-at-marriage controversy, the Banu Qurayza controversy, etc., into separate articles) and with the arguments re the Succession to Muhammad. It's two in the morning here and I don't want to do it right now. I'll do it tomorrow. Zora 12:02, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Anon

Anon added this:

Many women of Noble families had the privilage to give birth in the Kaaba before Islam, to claim honor from Ishmail the builder of the Kaaba and the Father of the Arabs who lived 2300 years before Muhammad.

I reverted. If sourced, i welcome to include it, but not without source. --Striver 03:26, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

history

This needs to be added: [10] --Striver 03:21, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Zora

Zora, quit it with your pov edits. Hizam is just as important to mention as Ali. --Striver 18:01, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

No, not really. The Shi'a make a big deal out of Ali's supposed birth in the Kaaba (prominent part of the Ali mythos) but few Sunni mention Hizam. That could be a da'if hadith. You cite hadith without any weighing and judging, Striver, which Islamic scholars would regard as extremely reckless.

Your version is POV because it tries to conceal the Shi'a nature of this belief. You haven't been able to come up with any source save that one website. You keep insisting that the website is Sunni. Well, it isn't orthodox Twelver Shi'a, but it isn't orthodox Sunni either. Does it say anywhere on the site that it's Sunni? You really need to come up with another Sunni source to support your contention.

Your version is ungrammatical and imprecise. It's misleading. You keep using vague English translations, which obscure exactly when and how reports of this birth emerged. "Reported" suggests eyewitnesses, when in fact the earliest source you cite is Masudi, who wrote 350 years after the supposed event. You are trying to give the impression that this is a widely held Muslim belief, when it is NOT. So far as I can tell, only the Shi'a and that one ambiguous website subscribe to this story of Ali's birth. Zora 18:30, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

New Kaaba Pic

Hello all, I would like to inform you on the recent update regarding the new Kaaba pic, I put it there. It might be taking up the page abit, so fix it up as you like, and my apologies for any inconvenience or hardship due to the pic.--Maliki 786 01:21, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Direction of prayer?

As far as I know, Muslims in most parts of North America pray facing East - the direction of Mecca if someone were to look at a flat map of the Earth even though the shortest distance from most points in the US and Canada to Mecca is North. Can someone confirm and/or clarify this in the article?

I have a vague memory of reading somewhere that this IS controversial, with some Muslims arguing for flat map and others for great circle orientations. But I don't have the time to do the research. Could you? Zora`

Not controversial but different directions. I think the shortest distance, so not always east. --a.n.o.n.y.m ^t 20:03, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I have yet to see a mosque or a person - Sunni or Shia - who prays towards the southeast in Toronto or Ottawa. I have (kind of) reverted the part about praying southeast here and in the Qibla article and included a reference to an ISNA adivsor article discussing the issue, but the anonymous user who has put them before has reverted back the Qibla article already. I leave it up to the moderators to decide because I am too tired to go in a reversion war, especially with an anonymous editor. --Abdousi 19:35, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't think is controversial at all. From North America, the direction of prayer is northeast; I have not heard otherwise (although there was a book in the early 1990s that claimed it was southeast, but it was just plain wrong). joturner 04:16, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Hindu temple again

Someone again linked to his webpage claiming that the Kaaba was a Hindu temple. Anon, no one except you believes that! The theory is not notable.

I also removed a mass of material that seemed to be a mixture of badly referenced Muslim piety and some anti-Islamic material about Islamic imperialism. Zora 19:33, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Revert to MPatel

The Hindu temple guy struck again. Someone removed the geographic coordinates, for some reason, and someone added some bogus "info" re exactly what was in the Kaaba before it became a Muslim shrine. Zora 18:17, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I saw a number of dodgy edits a couple of days ago, but didn't have the energy to change them back at the time. Thanks for reverting. Oh, that reminds me, I better mention this specific type of recurring vandalism for Wikiproject Islam contributors here MP (talk) 18:35, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

The coordinates were not removed! I put them in a coordinate template. If you look... you can see that they are actually more prominent on the page. Do you even know how computers work?--Dr who1975 22:20, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I see that now. Yes, I know how computers work. I've put mine together from parts myself. No need to sneer -- this is a group project and sneering doesn't help us cooperate. Zora 22:56, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I assure you my face was sneer free when I wrote it. Thank you for replying.--Dr who1975 23:20, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Academic views of history of Kaaba

I think there used to be a lot more material on the topic, which may have been deleted because it was non-Islamic. (There was a period when I wasn't monitoring this article, having taken a wiki-break.) Hoyland's book on pre-Islamic Arabia is a great source and I'll try to make the time to check it and add some references. Zora 00:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

The merge tag

A merge tag seems to have crept into the article. I don't think the article should be merged with Masjid al-Haram, as the Kaaba is a sufficiently important and iconic feature of Islam that it deserves an article of it's own. MP (talk) 14:58, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Squabbles over Temple Mount, Jewry, etc.

Itaqallah, Jewry sounds old-fashioned and faintly anti-Semitic. Please don't use it. It was in wide use once, but I don't see it in contemporary works. It is also a fact that many contemporary Jews have a strong emotional attachment to the Temple Mount and the Wailing Wall. Surely you know of the people who come to insert written prayers between the stones and pray before the wall. It's unfortunate that Muslims also have a strong emotional attachment to the Temple Mount but ... that's an inflammatory subject best left for other venues. Surely we can come up with some form of words that doesn't judge between the contending parties. Zora 01:16, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

yes, of course these sites are still revered, i don't think that's up for debate. this is, however, not what i think EoI is referring to, i think it is talking about how Muslims consider it as 'bayt Allah' and use it as the literal centre of their community dealings and rituals, serving the same purpose as the actual temple (of which only today the remnants remain) did for "ancient Jewry". this is also the impression i recieved from the article on the temple. this is why EoI says "Jewry", meaning Jewish peoples, and not Judaism, and is why the EoI says 'Muslim community' as it is drawing a comparison between the Muslim community's use of the Kaaba and ancient Jewish peoples' use of the temple. if Jewry is regarded as offensive we can quite easily use another term. ITAQALLAH 01:27, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

here is the quote again for convenience: "For the Muslim community the Ka`ba holds a place analogous to that of the temple in Jerusalem for ancient Jewry". i really think that the EoI is comparing ancient Jews' usage of the temple when it was intact to the Muslim community's usage of the Kaaba. ITAQALLAH 01:30, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

No problem, it's covered in Judaism as in when a temple exists and to the Jewish prayers in existance which talk about its use like that. Amoruso 01:31, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

the distinction is that the EoI is seemingly talking about its historical usage by ancient Jews (and this is why it says 'ancient Jewry' i.e. ancient Jewish civilisation), not about the religiously commanded usage in Jewish texts . and this is the comparison that i think the EoI is trying to draw (i.e. not the temple's status in Judaism or prescriptions according to Jewish texts, but how Jews historically used it in ancient times), which is why it would be incorrect in my opinion to imply the EoI is talking about judaism here. ITAQALLAH 01:40, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you that this was true when the temple existed, but perhaps you can agree with me that this is a concept in Judaism whether or not the temple exists or not... you see ? So imagine if this was a fictional story still this feature in Islam will be similar to the story ? See ? So if the temple will be built again it will have exactly the SAME purpose it did, it's a concept on how the temple is used. Amoruso 01:43, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

yes, however the comparison drawn up by the EoI is this:

Muslim community -relationship- Kaaba ≈ ancient Jewish community -relationship- Temple

if you change 'ancient Jewish community' to 'Judaism', the comparison is invalid and not logically sound. so it is not incorrect to use the term 'ancient Jewish peoples/civilisations' here and it in fact would be more appropriate in the light of trying to represent the point EoI is making. that is not to say what you are saying is incorrect, just that what i have suggested is more appropriate in representing the point EoI attempts to establish. ITAQALLAH 01:55, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Well I guess we disagree... I think it's the same thing to convey what he says but making it more accurate and also not saying that the temple actually existed btw - it's how Jews view the temple as it was and how it will be again if it's erected again even not on the temple mount itself but someplace else. I don't think it's confusing or less appropriate, but... Amoruso 02:08, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

i will wait for Zora's response, but i am currently considering changing the phrase to mean practice of the Jews from antiquity, which is what i believe the EoI is forwarding. ITAQALLAH 16:13, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

At any case, I would prefer if the words "Jewry" [11] and "Ancient" are avoided. btw, I can't see how it's analogous since Muslims have mosques, and at the time the temple stood there were no synagogues (although some were later excavated dated to the later stages of the second temple). Amoruso 01:39, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

well that link demonstrates my point exactly: EoI is referring to ancient collective Jewish civilisation, and so 'Jewry' here is precise and accurate, which is why EoI used it. the comparison is this: Kaaba is used by the Muslims today in the same way as the temple was used by the Jews of antiquity. i will accept a substitute for the word 'Jewry', but something indicating its archaic significance should be retained. ITAQALLAH 01:52, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

But like Zora says below, effectively if the Temple ever is built again anywhere it will have the same purpose of sacrifices and joint community. So if you mention it in the past it implies Jews no longer believe in such a habit which is not true - they wait for it to happen, so the concept is the same and conveyed. Amoruso 02:00, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

in the interests of dispute resolution i have forwaded a proposal. although i don't think it totally encapsulates the precision of the point made, it still contains a degree of validity. ITAQALLAH 02:16, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd say IMO good work cheers. Amoruso 02:18, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

That's why the best term is Judaism ITAQALLAH because this is the same meaning. Jews still regard the temple in their prayers as exactly this purpose. See the main prayer of Amidah said by Jews 3 times a day where it also asks God to restore the Temple services and sacrificial services. So using the common word "Judaism" is best. It's ambigiuous as well as accurate. You correctly replaced "Temple Mount" with "temple in Jerusalem " so there can be no confusion. Amoruso 01:25, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Don't wait for me, guys -- I've got some freelance work that has to be finished today. I would just observe that before cheap air travel, going to Mecca on the hajj was a rare and perilous venture. The Kaaba was just an idea to most Muslims. Similarly, the Temple is just an idea to contemporary Jews. I'm not sure that it makes sense to focus, as the EoI article does, on the actual physical existence of a cult center. The IDEA of a cult center is the same in both cases. Will be back later, as soon as I finish another box of manuscript. Zora 21:10, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Pictures of Muhammad

We have the usual suspects adding a picture of Muhammad to the Kaaba article. This is an article about the Kaaba, not Muhammad. There's no point other than insult to adding a picture that annoys a certain section of our readers. It's like adding penis pictures to articles just to be provocative. I'm not a Muslim and if I were an artist, I'd feel completely free to picture Muhammad. However, I wouldn't take my picture down to the nearest mosque and parade back and forth on the sidewalk in an attempt to be offensive. Please, don't troll. Zora 21:42, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Usual suspects dont troll? Maybe youll read WP:NPA meaning no personal attacks. Article is about Kaaba SO maybe you should look at the pic and see that Kaaba is in it also black stone. Muhammad is mentioned seven times here so if youre sure its NOT about Muhammad maybe take out all those mentions?Opiner 22:04, 29 December 2006 (UTC)