Talk:Mohun Bagan AC

Unofficial AFC club ranking debate

Hey @Dey subrata:, so you have reverted my edits on the page about keeping the AFC club ranking section. Do excuse me because the way you wrote it, I interpreted the mention of FA as Football Association (which prompted me to ask what exactly did you mean). Now coming to my point, these rankings were kept in place because the current official AFC ranking system had been discontinued since 2014, which means there are no equivalents of the European UEFA club coefficients for Asian clubs. And the website from where the ranking information was taken from had ethical point systems in place to give people an idea about where the clubs stand from a continental perspective. Sure I get your point and I agree it is not a feature of FA/GA articles to have unofficial rankings like this but to give people a neutral idea about which team stands where in the continent in terms of their performances in a certain time period in AFC competitions. Do you think something like this is really not required out of a lack of better alternatives. Thank you. REALMMB^(talk) 03:48, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

The new club won't come into existence before 1 June 2021, which is a long time from now. So no need to worry about that. REALMMB^(talk) 03:10, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

Merge with ATK page and redirect

Mohun bagan has merged with ATK. Pages need to be merged. Subhanu Bhattacharya (talk) 18:34, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Turn ATK page to ATKMB page. ATK now has no existance without ATKMB in this case both ATK and MB fans will be happy Darkarmy241998 (talk) 18:39, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 February 2020

In the Stadiums section, it states that Salt Lake Stadium is the largest Stadium in the country (India). This is no longer true. The citation links to the largest stadiums and plainly there is another stadium within India that is listed higher. N3shad (talk) 14:42, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

 Done Removed that statement. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 14:52, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

Wrong information update

This page is fir Mohun Bagan A.C the club. The club is owned by the members legally. There are regular wrong information updated on the ownership of the club. We wil have to keep a check on that. I am a club member and can ratify the club ownership. The stake of football team has been bought (80%) by RP SPG. That's mentioned in the description below. Kindly lock page if such false information keeps continuously get updated here by users. Ztruc (talk) 02:04, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Ztruc, provide sources and citations. ❯❯❯ S A H A 13:40, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Test Ztruc (talk) 16:38, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/news/sports/rpsg-picks-majority-stake-in-mohun-bagan-football-club/article30578716.ece Ztruc (talk) 16:39, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

https://www.firstpost.com/sports/mohun-bagan-announces-merger-with-atk-fc-to-play-as-one-team-in-isl-2020-21-7916631.html/amp Ztruc (talk) 16:43, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

https://www.indiansuperleague.com/press-releases/rp-sanjiv-goenka-group-acquires-majority-stake-in-mohun-bagan-football-club Ztruc (talk) 16:44, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

The 80% stake is of Mohun Bagan Football Club India Pvt Ltd. It's the entity which runs the football team of Mohun Bagan Athletic Club. The entity called Mohun Bagan Athletic Club about this page is retains the old Constitutional identify. Ztruc (talk) 16:47, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

wrong Information on 1 June 2020

The club logo is tampered and as well the description is tampered. Its need to change. and the section Supporters Mohun Bagan have historically enjoyed the privilege of possessing the biggest fan base in India and one of the biggest, globally. The fans known as Mariners have the distinction of the highest attendance in I-League matches. There are several fan clubs dedicated to Mohun Bagan in different parts of India.

As per official statistics, Mohun Bagan had the highest average attendance in the 2013-14 season. AIFF reported an average home crowd of 17,068.[39] In the 2014-15 I-League season, their vocal support in away matches in Pune, Mumbai and Bengaluru was a phenomenon previously unseen in Indian football. The Economic Times, a leading Indian newspaper, reported that the club had an average attendance of over 35,000 in their home matches, possibly an I-League record. Over 21,000 attended the league decider of the 2014-15 I-League between Mohun Bagan and Bengaluru FC in Bengaluru, of this ".. over 8,000 were away fans, travelling from as far as Kolkata, Mumbai and Pune to watch the game", noted Sunando Dhar, chief executive officer of the I-League in the same article.[40] Their grand reception when, by some estimates, over 200,000 fans gathered to greet the 2014-15 I-League clinching squad (on their way back to Kolkata from Bengaluru) has been dubbed as "legendary" "unparalleled" and "surreal" by the press as well as football historians.[41]

Mohun Bagan fans have also provided financial help to the club during times of struggles. In early 2000s, a Mohun Bagan fan mortgaged his house to raise funds for signing Brazilian superstar Jose Ramirez Barreto.[42] In 2013 another fan donated his entire monthly salary to the club.[43]

Celebrity Mohun Bagan fans include Dr. Rajendra Prasad, Kazi Nazrul Islam,[44] Premendra Mitra, Hemendra Kumar Ray,[45] K.C.Nag, Manna Dey,[46] Jyoti Basu,[47] R. D. Burman,[48] Sourav Ganguly,[49] Amitabh Bachchan,[50] Satyajit Ray, Uttam Kumar, Mithun Chakraborty,[51] Shakti Chattopadhyay, Srijit Mukherji, Babul Supriyo, Tapan Sinha, Dhananjay Bhattacharya, Jahar Ganguly, Pahari Sanyal, Chhabi Biswas, Asit Baran, Anil Chatterjee, Rabi Ghosh, Chinmoy Roy, Biplab Chatterjee, Subhendu Chatterjee, Mani Shankar Mukherjee, Sanjib Chattopadhyay, Somnath Chatterjee, Bidhan Chandra Roy, Santosh Dutta, Utpal Dutta, Siddhartha Shankar Ray, Leander Paes, Birendra Krishna Bhadra, Suchitra Bhattacharya, Joy Sarkar, Rupam Islam, Anindya Chatterjee, Anupam Roy, Debshankar Haldar, Harbhajan Singh, Bimal Kar[52] and many more. it is totally false statements. there are many names that falsely claiming to be supporter of the club. change it

AvikBanerjee1994 (talk) 10:25, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Merger

However, the page is now protected, still let me make one thing clear to all users who are trying to add materials and remove materials....the status of merger with ATK (football club) or forming any new entity is not official. The name, logo, status, management, owner, nothing is official. The news article many referring is just the previous announcement of merger. One must remember that wikipedia is not news. We will only update the article or modify the article after the club meeting on 10 June. Whatever they will announce and share, we will update the article accordingly. Before that, all other news article stories are considered to be opinion and rumours. Official and relaible citation will be after the official announcement be there. I hope there remains no confusion about it anymore. Drat8sub (talk) 00:18, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

and can you please provide any link it is happening on 10th june exactly, otherwise only articles mentioning 1st june are reliable ?! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.2.205.215 (talk) 17:48, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Does not matter the meeting is on 10th or 20th, whenever it will be held, they will anounce everything after that and the article will be updated accordingly. Drat8sub (talk) 17:57, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Drat8sub, "the status of merger with ATK (football club) or forming any new entity is not official" This is official as per mohun bagan's and isl's website. and now ministry of corporate affairs. ❯❯❯ S A H A 20:13, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Nope, by status I mean, the name, logo, colours, management, owner which were subject of edit wars that were going in the article before the protection placed. Drat8sub (talk) 21:43, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

www.goal.com/en-in/amp/news/atk-mohun-bagan-name-isl-i-league-champions-play/1li27vkm5vje4zkgepyjpokak

here is ministry confirmation, name and ownership confirmed! now all reliable users can either rename one page with removed logo (atk's possibly as they got majority stakes), or make separate article, but for sure one of clubs has to be listed as former due to registered name change. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.76.66 (talk) 05:26, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

No, that does not matter. We wait until there is official confirmation from the club(s) themselves. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 06:05, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Hello, ip user do you think we are not updated and don't know anything what's going on, who is publishing what and what to write here, when to write. I've seen that ministry's portal much before goal published that crap to create nuisance. Here is some facts for you.. the ministry's entry have company's name with "ATK Mohun Bagan Pvt. ltd" but no incorporation date mentioned where as the domain name added is "mohunbaganatk.in". And Arnab, it cannot be a new club, they have to choose history of either Mohun Bagan or ATK. A new entity cannot play in the continental level, they've to show its renamed either MB or ATK. Above that the registered domain also shows it will expire in mid 2021. So ip user, don't use talk page as forum, wikipedia is not news, this is an encyclopedia (and repeat after me 3 times, wikipedia is encyclopedia and not social media or news portal), materials is and will be added when absolutely confirmed and with WP:RS. Hope you all got it. Drat8sub (talk) 01:59, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Edit war/page protected

Following a request at RFPP, I have fully protected this page for the next 24 hours due to the constant reversions.

I have found at least one source that indicates the current article title is the new official name of the club [1], so I did not revert the page move. (I also don't speak Bengali, so I don't know if this is a reliable enough source to include in the article.)

Please come to a consensus over the next 24 hours as to what needs to be changed in the article, so that can be done when the protection expires. –Darkwind (talk) 10:15, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

MB FC merged with ATK FC while other departments of the club will operate as usual. ATKMB is a completely different entity from MB/ATK ❯❯❯ S A H A 10:30, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

I see. I have reverted the page back to the stable version from 2020-07-06, and undone the page move (this is within standard administrator discretion as described in WP:PREFER). Ideally, a reliable source should be found detailing that the athletic club is remaining a separate entity from the merged football club, to eliminate confusion going forward.

Please use the {{edit protected}} template to request any further changes to the article if you are able to form a consensus before the protection expires. –Darkwind (talk) 10:46, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 10 July 2020

I would request to update the page name to "ATK Mohun Bagan FC", along with changing the logo og the club (as per the new logo unveiled today), the head coach and the owner structure of the club. Also a new section should be added to suggest the merger process, and the pressure exerted by the club followers on the new owners not to change the club colors, club jersey and the club logo. 106.200.209.76 (talk) 18:46, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: this is the talk page for discussing improvements to the page Mohun Bagan A.C.. Please make your request at the talk page for the article concerned. ATK Mohun Bagan FC already exists. If that page is not satisfactory, you may make an edit request with specific details. Izno (talk) 18:55, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Merge proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Historical Doc: CLOSE by Aarul Chandekar, 22 July 2020 (Reverted)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hi all! I would like to discuss the possibility of merging ATK Mohun Bagan FC in to this article. There is a lot of confusion about whether ATK Mohun Bagan is a brand new club or simply just a rebranding of Mohun Bagan AC but, to me at least, there is enough evidence to believe that it is a rebranding. Firstly, this article seems to imply that Mohun Bagan changed its name from Mohun Bagan Athletic Club to ATK Mohun Bagan FC. The article also mentions how the Mohun Bagan brand colours and logo were "retained", not added, and that Goenka, the new majority owner, bought an 80% stake in Mohun Bagan. Additionally, there is also a quote by Nita Ambani, the head of of the ISL, stating "I whole-heartedly welcome Mohun Bagan, one of India’s oldest and most renowned club, to the Indian Super League and congratulate Sanjiv Goenka for embracing the I-League champions with open arms." which indicates that Mohun Bagan is entering the ISL, just under a new brand name.

The idea of this just being a rebranding, just under new ownership, can be further believed from this article. The article mentions "arch-rivals East Bengal following Mohun Bagan into the ISL" and also says that the team just had a name change. This article as well also pushes the idea that "Mohun Bagan moved to ISL after the merger with ATK".

Of course, the argument can be made the other way. In the first article I linked, Nita Ambani also says "The new entity, ‘ATK Mohun Bagan FC’, holds vast potential for not just West Bengal or Indian football but internationally too, as we endeavour to establish Indian clubs as strong players in AFC competitions." which indicates that this is a brand new club. This article also mentions how this is a new entity but with a major connection to Mohun Bagan. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 07:00, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page discussions. GiantSnowman 11:25, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose - per this recent AFD - there is no consensus to get rid of a separate article on the merged football club. As I said there, when two existing clubs merge we keep the 'old' club articles and create a completely new article for the new club. GiantSnowman 11:27, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

I understand your point but i think part of the debate is whether this was a merger or just a "brand merger". Some would argue that this was just Goenka buying an 80% stake in Mohun Bagan and that he disbanded his original ISL team and decided to "merge the ATK brand" into Mohun Bagan. Similar to when Mohun Bagan were bought by United Breweries Group years ago and renamed 'McDowell Mohun Bagan. In fact, this article basically shows that it was almost the same premise in 1998 as it is today. UB buys a majority stake in Mohun Bagan and proceeds to create a new company to own the team. Only difference is that there was no existing other football club to "merge" with.

So TL;DR: Was this an actual merger into a new team or just a "brand merger" in which one team is disbanded and their "brand is merged" with another. I personally believe it is the latter. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 13:03, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

The Afd was before the club's announcement and before details was published. From sources its clear there was no merge in reality at all as the parent company of ATK does not ahve any share of ATK MB but parent company of MB have permanent share percentage as described in my comment below. Drat8sub (talk) 01:00, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

• Comment: Just wanted to add another source. In this interview with the new majority owner, Goenka states "To me, green and maroon are my colours. Green and maroon it is. The logo remains the same, ATK Mohun Bagan is the new name of the club." which to me shows that this is Mohun Bagan but just under a new name/brand. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 13:47, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

• It's football entity of Mohun Bagan Avi1962 (talk) 16:13, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

• there has to be 1 page 1 team only! so either mb should add atk and new logo, or keep sub page of football. if merged, athletic mb logo cant stay! thats all about it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.131.73.212 (talk) 16:44, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

you say isl will have atkmb vs mb, and afc cup two bagan teams! half of players from same squads against each other? or cricket and other mb sports vs atkmb footballers? unbelievable! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ATK_Mohun_Bagan_FC — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.131.73.212 (talk) 16:49, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

I really don't understand at all what you are saying. ATK vs. ATK Mohun Bagan? Two Bagan teams? I never said any of that. Please try to act WP:CIVIL. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 17:02, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

• ATK and Mohun Bagan AC are not different entities now, so I would really appreciate it, if you please merge the pages of ATK and Mohun Bagan AC and make a single page. Rajarshi Mondal 17 (talk) 17:35, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Besides the fact that this is what you want, do you have any other reasons for wanting these pages to be merged? Also, new account created to just comment here, obvious WP:DUCK here. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 17:53, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

• I support the proposal to merge the ATK Mohun Bagan FC page into the original Mohun Bagan AC wikipedia page. It is obvious. Rebranding of a football team doesn't constitute reasons for keeping separate pages. I have studied the corporate history of Mohun Bagan to pick up valuable points. There have been transfer of footballing rights from one parent company of the football division of the club at least thrice after start of 'professional football licensing' system by the AIFF. There hasn't been any page kept on teams played under McDowell's Mohun Bagan Private Limited, Mohun Bagan Society, Mohun Bagan Football Club (India) Private Limited. Now the current transfer of football rights has brought up a new page.

I tried to make a little survey on social media for a day to understand what is going on with this. Using the English substances available, I could understand that the fact is something that is very disheartening. A huge misinformation campaign is being run on various platforms by mainly some fans of East Bengal, a rival club of Mohun Bagan, to malign Mohun Bagan AC. The same thing has been extended to wikipedia pages. I feel it is a moral obligation of a responsible member of wikipedia community to stand up strongly against that. I would like to not only endorse the merging proposal but also suggest creating a section in the Mohun Bagan AC page named Current Football Division (or something similar) to make it the section to update in future cases of such rights transfer. If EBFC joins ISL (likely in near future) you could expect similar misbehaviour and this should be a good precedent and a model to fight such misinformation. However first thing first. Also applying common sense, one can understand if he or she isn't biased, no businessman buys stake at established football teams to create a so called 'new club' out of nowhere since that is not what he or she has bought stakes. M Kariyappa (talk) 18:59, 14 July 2020 (UTC) ...stakes for. (Correction) M Kariyappa (talk) 19:01, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

What? A lot of this is without sourcing and also a bit conspiratorial. I am not an East Bengal fan, I'm a dude in the US who just wants Indian football wikipedia pages to look good. The only other person to really respond here is GiantSnowman (talk · contribs) and I can assure you he probably couldn't care less about the East Bengal-Mohun Bagan social media rivalry or whatever. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 19:08, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose As of now, no official source (ISL, AIFF, MB, ATK) sources says atkmb=mb. the official press release from mb website says amalgamate into a new football club https://themohunbaganac.com/rp-sanjiv-goenka-group-acquires-majority-stake-in-mohun-bagan-football-club-india-private-limited/ ❯❯❯   S A H A 19:29, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

• Update: ATK's social media pages changed to atkmb. https://twitter.com/atkmohunbaganfc . these have 3 time isl champion cover photo. also, a new website is announced - http://atkmohunbaganfc.in/ . which again proves its a new club, formed by the merger of football departments of both clubs. mbac responsible for other departments. also found a tweet from afc, referring to atkmb and not mb/atk individually. also i want to add another thing. the club articles (whether fa or ga) have different articles for different depts. now, mbac is responsible for the dept. except football. so, how is it possible to merge football here? even if this article is merged or anything, then all other data, history etc. needs to be transferred to another article. ❯❯❯   S A H A 06:28, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

• Another update: we can wait for the website launch. it says "WEBSITE COMING SOON". ❯❯❯   S A H A 16:59, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
• Comment: if atk had won the isl league stage, then atkmb would have played in ACL. so, deciding on the basis of where they are gonna play is incorrect. also, in january interview, goenka said "all the owners of atk are also owners of atkmb", which indirectly refers to kolkata sports & games has shares in atkmb. in isl, clubs cant have investor, sponsor name in the club name. source. so, how atk is a investor/sponsor? if it was cesc-mb/rpsg-mg, situation would have been different. suppose i buy a old house, and build a new one in the place of that, but keep the colours same, it wont mean both the buildings are same, right? ❯❯❯   S A H A 06:43, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

arnab and af: exactly while there are 2 pages its vandalism...open mb and atkmb pages, literally same player and coach list...so will they play against each other, one with mb athletic club logo, others with atkmb logo????!!!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.172.171.128 (talk) 19:43, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

No. It means that someone decided to take it upon themselves to make Mohun Bagan the main page of ATK Mohun Bagan without consensus. It doesn't prove anything. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 19:59, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

so you feel hard to delete players and habas, ban that user, and keep atkmb main as football section ?! also hard to remove mb from i league teams ?! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.172.171.128 (talk) 20:53, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

• Merge would be the best option for the article and adding a new sub-section at Mohun Bagan A.C.#History, all the three logo will be summarised as done in FC Barcelona#Kits and crest and the record will be kept as were kept in Odisha FC. No one saying ATK-MB=MB, but ATK-MB football team represents MB Athletic Club as the ATK MB football team will be playing with the Mohun Bagan's colour, logo, jersey1, Mohun Bagan ground and facilities to be upgraded for ISL and AFC matches 2 3 4, 130+ history of Mohun bagan is followed 5. Above that ATK's parent company, Kolkata Games and Sports Pvt Ltd 6 does not have any shares in ATK Mohun Bagan Pvt Ltd, the parent company of the ATK Mohun Bagan, rather RSPG, Ganguly and Utsav Parekh individually are share holders, again Mohun Bagan F.C. India Pvt Ltd, parent company of Mohun Bagan have permanent share.7, 8 9 10. Again some comments from the owners, "members of the Mohun Bagan Athletic Club will continue to get discounted tickets for all home matches" / "millions and millions of Bagan supporters spread across the globe, that the poetry will continue" / " welcome Mohun Bagan with folded hands and open arms to the RPSG family"11. All shows the team represents Mohun Bagan and RSPG matters i.e, Goenka not ATK.Discussed here also in details that this has been done for all other articles. Drat8sub (talk) 00:55, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

• Further comment Per Sporting criteria to participate in an AFC Club competition a club must be : 12.1.1- winner of the national top division league 12.1.2- winner of the national knock-out cup 12.1.3- runner-up of the national top division league 12.1.4- third-place of the national top division league. Now, if we take ATK Mohun Bagan as new club, then it's team did not win any thing or least not participated in any league and satisfy any of the citeria. However, Mohun Bagan by virtue of I-League champion gets the AFC Cup group stage slot (India 2) where as ATK by virtue of ISL playoff winner got the 2021 AFC Cup playoffs slots (India 3). But after this contract ATK Mohun Bagan the new entity i.e, the new football team representing Mohun Bagan will be playing the 2021 AFC group stage as India 2.12. AIFF also clearly says direct entrant in the group stage of AFC Cup on virtue of being winners of the Hero I-League 2019-2013 and I league winner is Mohun bagn thus its new entity but not new club at all, it's the football entity of the Mohun Bagan club or the football team representing Mohun Bagan club. Drat8sub (talk) 18:52, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

I would like to add further that keeping aside the motives behind creation of the extra page, one single piece of information must be conclusive whether or not someone likes that. Any football club in India is registered at State level associations. They procure the professional license only, from AIFF to play at national level tournaments. Mohun Bagan AC registered at Indian Football Association (state football association of WB) in 1892 after IFA was established. ATK had registered at IFA similarly in 2014. They used to field a side in the Calcutta Football League (consisting mainly of their academy players). They started from division 3 of CFL (which is the 5th tier) and got promoted gradually to division 1, the 3rd tier. Mohun Bagan AC have been Fielding team (under whatever name) in the top most tier (which is now Premier A) of CFL from 1915. In the next CFL the registration of ATK has been withdrawn and Mohun Bagan will figure in CFL as it has been for years. The IFA is also planning to start the season with the derby match as per media reports. Withdrawal of ATK from IFA should make it clear to anyone that ATK Mohun Bagan FC is another version of Mohun Bagan's football division. Change of corporate ownership of a club is a normal affair. M Kariyappa (talk) 05:29, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

drat said best: one page one squad new logo, all other wont matter! do it and stop repeating old facts forever!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.172.171.128 (talk) 05:47, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

I would like to thank the IP user friend from Aizawl FC community for supporting the same page concept. I would like to have a section on MBAC page devoted to Current Footballing Entity (name could be something similar) and if possible, as a subsection under History, its 'corporate history'. Those sections/subsections would be helpful in preventing any further misuse, of wikipedia space, of same type. A severe misinformation campaign is being run by some EBFC fans as I noticed, on various social media platforms, to establish a wrong information that Mohun Bagan's football division has been dissolved. It hasn't been but keeping a separate page on wikipedia would serve their vested interest. Dissolving the club with such support base can't serve the purpose for any successful sports business model and the businessmen owning the current footballing rights of MBAC know that quite clearly. I expect, in near future, EBFC will also join the ISL. All the responsible members of the wikipedia community need to stand up again if similar misuse of wikipedia space, for serving some vested interests of a group (read the rival fans of EBFC in that case), comes to our notice. Sanctity of wikipedia space is at stake. Thanks to all who understand and hope for others that they would understand some day. M Kariyappa (talk) 07:11, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

The current football team's logo and jersey designs could also be placed appropriately at the Current football entity section as I mentioned. The other stuffs can be updated as it has been from earlier days. M Kariyappa (talk) 07:14, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

thats better finally... but new page can be edited with mb year as well as new, easier. that wouldnt mean dissolving, nor any fans can do such look... hillarious! text is main criteria, mb as multi entity can have sub pages if easier to use, many clubs do so! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.172.171.128 (talk) 07:59, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

I beg to differ with you regarding this. I reiterate that keeping separate page for the current football division of the club would suffice for the misinterpretation by those who want to show the world as if a new club has born on 1 June 2020. The new parent company was born on that date. See FC Bayern Munich as an example of a premier club. Their wikipedia page describe their football activity, records etc. There is separate page for their basketball team FC Bayern Munich (basketball). So it is time to stop the misuse of wikipedia space with definite moves. So let the pages be merged and original MBAC page should have all the basic information on the football activity obviously. M Kariyappa (talk) 09:03, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Ya let's merge Avi1962 (talk) 10:48, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

*Comment: Looks like today the ATK facebook and twitter accounts were renamed as ATK Mohun Bagan FC and the Mohun Bagan facebook and twitter accounts stayed the same. One of their first posts on the ATK Mohun Bagan page was to announce that Prabir Das will join ATK Mohun Bagan FC. The way the tweet is written, with recognition of both ATK and Mohun Bagan, makes me think that this is a separate club. In fact, ATK Mohun Bagan now has a website while the Mohun Bagan website remains its own thing. I know I am the one who nominated this for merger but that is just because I wanted to start the discussion. Based on this and the somewhat vague evidence in above comments, I am aiming towards Oppose and keeping them separate pages as they seem like separate entities. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 13:15, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Hastily reaching 'decision' is not suggestive of real thirst for getting to the truth. For ArsFan, social media wins. However, Let me tell something more for others.

• McDowell Mohun Bagan had separate website just like what ATK Mohun Bagan FC is having today.
• The same news on Prabir Das was published on Mohun Bagan Twitter account as well.
• I had given you all the details on how IFA registration suggests this is the same old club.
• I suggest you all to have a look at the Entry Manual for

AFC Club Competitions 2017-2020 available freely at https://www.the-afc.com/downloads/ in which the Sporting Criteria 12.1 states clearly that,

To meet the sporting criteria, a club must have earned one (1) of the following (which shall be utilised in descending order for seeding purposes for any draw): 12.1.1. winner of the national top division league; 12.1.2. winner of the national knock-out cup; 12.1.3. runner-up of the national top division league; 12.1.4. third-place of the national top division league. It's confirmed now that Mohun Bagan (under the name ATK Mohun Bagan FC) is going to play in the AFC Cup 2021 by virtue of becoming national champion in the season 2019-20 as it won the I-league. If 'ATK Mohun Bagan' is a so called new club it would not qualify for AFC Cup through any of the above criteria. However, it has been granted a place properly. If all these points, specially the last one, do not make sense to somebody he or she is not worth talking to. M Kariyappa (talk) 14:22, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

That is not confirmation. There have been reports where ATK Mohun Bagan is simply just taking over the spot that Mohun Bagan had earned (source). This source pretty clearly indicates that ATK Mohun Bagan is a new entity (not just the company, but the club) and that they are simply taking over that spot. Sportskeeda is also stating that because they are a merged entity, ATK Mohun Bagan is getting a free pass at the AFC Cup spot for next season. Also it is hard to use those criteria in Indian football since we have a different structure than the usual football structure. Hence why the AFC Champions League spot goes to the Winners Shield winner and the ISL champions get only AFC Cup. (source).

As for the separate website. I don't recall that and I have been editing here since McDowell was the title sponsor. For the IFA, you need to provide a source. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 14:57, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Website are temporary thing, you need to buy domain for certain period and register them, once if expires you buy new one. See old East Bengal website when with Quess here, and new one here, website and fb account does not mean anything. And I am not saying ATK MB is equal to MB. MBAC's football entity is ATK MB, if two club merge then MBAC will not exist but it does and because the club is MBAC. It's the merge of two football entity into one and representing MBAC, clear from the argument . Rather AFC club things clears everything, a new "club" cannot participate in AFC league it needs to win or runners up or third position, least to participate. And AIFF statement is very clear, as mentioned above in my further comment. Drat8sub (talk) 19:30, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Support and Merge: Firstly to clarify why the old Mohun Bagan website is still there.Because it is the club's website and not exclusively of the football team. The home page banner clearly has both a football and cricket section banner. Now as we all know that the criteria for participating in AFC is by winning a domestic league/cup. A new club will obviously never fulfill that criteria. As mentioned in this [2] release from AIFF, "ATK Mohun Bagan (after their agreement to form a joint venture) as a direct entrant in the group stage of AFC Cup on virtue of being winners of the Hero I-League 2019-20." So it is quite clear from the AIFF statement that ATK Mohun Bagan is the same club which has won the I-League 2019-20 and qualified for the AFC Cup 2021 by virtue of this. Any other speculative news articles or fan theories become irrelevant after this. Debarghya89 (talk) 15:09, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

• Comment: This article about Prabir Das signing at least shows for sure that this is not ATK. However, I still don't believe that ATK Mohun Bagan and Mohun Bagan are the same. ATK Mohun Bagan may have adopted the history and "retained" the colors but most indications are that this is a new entity and that ATK Mohun Bagan is just getting into the AFC Cup not because they were I-League champions but because they just happened to merge and take the spot. It even mentions in the AIFF article how ATK is also in the group stage due to the merger. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 16:38, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

arnab and arsenal user, stop warring, delete players from old mb page as clearly clubs separated websites. this has to be legally reported as same squad cant play under two logos, im sick of such vulgar sport abuse!!!!!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.1.31.202 (talk) 17:53, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-League

and why nobody wants remove mb from i league, another hard vandalism!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.1.31.202 (talk) 18:04, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

• Comment: I can't find any article from AIFF or ISL or even from the official press release that mentions ATK-MB as a "new club". Articles like this [3] and this [4] and official press release [5], all talk about a new entity but no explicit mention of the term "club" Debarghya89 (talk) 18:21, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

• New merge entity can't get a spot in AFC competition as per rules n also in CFL new entity can't directly play in premier division so simply it's football entity of Mohun Bagan with Atk Mohun Bagan name which owned by goyenka Avi1962 (talk) 19:01, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

See, to me, that makes it clear that it is separate. "Last week Indian football saw the historic merger of two of India’s biggest clubs – Mohun Bagan and ATK into a combined entity known as ATK Mohun Bagan." That is basically just what happened with Hayes & Yeading United and how that was just two clubs – Hayes and Yeading – combining into one club/entity. There is no mention of the entity just being ATK Mohun Bagan Private Limited but literally as ATK Mohun Bagan FC. Same with the ISL article: "Indian Super League (Hero ISL) champions ATK FC and Hero I-League winners Mohun Bagan formally merged and became one entity – ATK Mohun Bagan FC." I think that just makes it clear. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 19:08, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

arsenalfan just answer why dont you remove players from mb page, club said atkmb new web-new entity!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.1.31.202 (talk) 20:08, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

• I think ATKMB is not a football entity of mohun bagan. It is a merge club with the identity of both the teams. Everyone knows that the purpose of the meeting of the board members of ATK Moagan Pvt Ltd(a newly formed company) on 10th July. The purpose was to decide the CREST, COLORS and NAME of the club. If ATKMB is a football entity of Mohun bagan AC then what was the relevance of that meeting? Abhishe78 (talk) 20:15, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Club one is Mohun Bagan Athletic Club and Club 2 is ATK, when merged, evidently both should ceased to exist. Then how come Mohun Bagan Athletic Club still exists. Second why does not ATK's parent company "Kolkata Games and Sports Pvt Ltd" have no share but Mohun Bagan have share. Again, if its new club how ATK Mohun Bagan playing in AFC when it does not win any league or runners up. Simply, its the merge of two football entity and formed into one which represents Mohun bagan evidence well put in my comments above, please go through. Drat8sub (talk) 20:28, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

drat are you also keeping atkmb and mb players shown to look like 2 teams...shsmeless forgery please delete one squad make as you said for abroad exames stop empty barking here !!!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.188.148.23 (talk) 20:51, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Ip user please listen, when the discussion going, we should not chnage the status of the pages regarding section which are directly related to discussion. We can remove keep or modify after the discussion. Ok, for now please, it's a request, don't change. Let's get a outcome of the conversation. I hope you undersatnd. Drat8sub (talk) 21:05, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

its over club made separate web for atkmb so has to be same here! users just update facts dont personal views! and its common sense same squad cant represent 2 entities, regardless anything! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.1.31.202 (talk) 01:01, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

We know and that why the discussion is here, so if there is a merge no need of delete any section, merge means not to delete, it means copying the article's materials to the article it has to be merged and the merged article will not be existed any more. So, please wait for it. Drat8sub (talk) 02:14, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

• I couldn't resist myself from jumping into it creating an account in wikipedia. I've been watching this page for a while. The IFA registration issue raised by Mr. Kariyappa and the AFC club competition entry issue raised by Mr. Kariyappa and Mr. Debarghya are strong enough for the merging to go ahead. There has been no informative opposition to these issues. So why is the absolute necessary job not being completed? I am starting to share similar feelings with Mr. Kariyappa. Aarul Chandekar (talk) 06:04, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

I am really thankful to Aarul Chandekar for not only recognizing my efforts but also giving importance to basic factual evidences over things like interviews, social media or news websites.

• The identity of any club is based on its state association membership in India. So the IFA related point is important.
• However, if that doesn't suffice, as IFA is merely a state association, we can't and shouldn't ignore the AFC related point. After all AFC is the confederation. The entry requirement point is enough to sensibly conclude that ATK Mohun Bagan FC is another rechristened form of Mohun Bagan's football team.
• We must take note of the fact that, football division of Mohun Bagan, football division of East Bengal and Punjab FC have gone through similar change of ownership and change of names in India in the past. So we should take this thing as a normal affair.

We must move forward decisively with factual evidence in hands and merge these pages suitably. M Kariyappa (talk) 07:12, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

You never provided any sources for the IFA claim. You're being rude for basically calling out people who want to use news articles which are reliable and literally how we source things on Wikipedia. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 07:33, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Also, the AFC point is moot as we don't even use that system in India. Our league winner for the AFC Champions League is just for the "league stage", our ISL champions, the actual winners of the top tier league of India, get an AFC Cup qualification spot, and the I-League champions get the AFC Cup group stage spot. That is nowhere near how the AFC stated in their old regulations. Our now second tier league gets an Asian spot. As for the AIFF post, not sure about that but all other reliable and independent sources state that ATK Mohun Bagan FC is a "new club" and that this merger is once again just like the one between Hayes and Yeading to form Hayes & Yeading United. Two clubs merging into one new club but keeping the virtues and recognizing the history of the past clubs. More sources to show that this is a new club can come from goal.com. Other sources like The Times of India show that this is a new franchise after a merger and The Hindu explicitly says that this is a "newly formed club" as well. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 07:53, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

• Further Comment: Heck, even the official press release from Mohun Bagan, if you want to use direct non-independent sources, says "The new football club will have brand names of ATK and Mohun Bagan." and "The merged club will come into existence from First of June, 2020". --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 07:58, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

• M Kariyappa, Aarul Chandekar, Avi1962, wikipedia works on citations and sources, so if you can provide us a source about IFA thing that ATK's license withdrawn and MBAC's still there & CFL rules of entry, it will be a stroger case along with the exisitng AFC club competition entry proof that Debarghya89 made & me too at my further comment and along with logo color and all. So, please provide, a bengali source will also be accepted. ArsenalFan700, this press release is of 16 January 2020, a lot of things has changed after that retaliation from supporters, I don't know how will it count as also see what was written in it, "acquire majority shareholding in Mohun Bagan Football Club (India) Private Limited (MBFC)" & then "the two football clubs coming together into a new merged identity", it does not mean club merged, Mohun Bagan Athletic Club does not have a separate football club, so either it is talking about MBAC or the football entity MBFC. If Mohun Bagan Athletic Club merged with ATK then it's obvious that Mohun Bagan Athletic Club will be ceased to exist. But it is not the case. Mohun Bagan Athletic Club exists. So its MBFC & thus it should be percieved as two clubs coming together & the football entities that is MBFC and Kolkata Games Pvt Ltd (ATK only, it does not have anyother entity) & formed into a new football entity. The statements contradict the status of MBAC & existing norms of AFC. (Opinion: I think in coming days they will surely gonna say few word on the meaning of those three letters ATK. If they add any full form, then there will be no doubt as the ATK we know does not have any full form) Drat8sub (talk) 09:24, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Actually I did not keep track of those materials so now I had to recover most of them again. I have been extensively assisted by one of my colleagues (he hails from a small town called Jalpaiguri) regarding the translation and interpretation of the Bengali materials. You've got to find someone like him as well to make out some of the things I am posting here (if you're not from Bengali community). M Kariyappa (talk) 15:32, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

• Last season, ATK's team in the Calcutta Football League became 2nd in the division 1 (tier 3) of CFL. http://www.kolkatafootball.com/ifa_cfl_lower_divn_2019-20/1st_divn.html
• They got promoted to the premier division B (tier 2) of the CFL thereby. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y58MRUand6c (Bengali material) M Kariyappa (talk) 15:32, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

• Mohun Bagan has been in the top most division of the CFL and they remain there, they'll participate in the next CFL.
• The next CFL is being planned to start with the famous derby. https://www.anandabazar.com/sport/ifa-is-thinking-of-calcutta-premier-league-with-derby-1.1175228 (Bengali material)
• There will be no ATK team in the CFL as the ATK team going to be (27 May, 2020) withdrawn in the next CFL. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lKnKq1iJksM (Bengali material)

Add the AFC entry requirement clause to this (which is quite strong) and that is sufficient to get the page merger done. Both these points (there are plenty more on the internet probably) suggest that 'ATK Mohun Bagan FC' is only a rechristened form of the football division of Mohun Bagan. M Kariyappa (talk) 15:35, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

None of these materials say about the club registration explicitly but withdrawal of ATK from CFL in favour of Mohun Bagan playing in the Premier division A (that in whatever name) tells you the truth. I think the Bengali friends might get to know about more sources of information but the fact on the ground is quite clear. M Kariyappa (talk) 15:40, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

No, the facts on the ground are not clear. None of this explicitly shows that this is the exact same club. The first source just says that ATK Mohun Bagan and East Bengal could be the first match and that makes sense considering that ATK Mohun Bagan has adopted the history and tradition of both ATK and Mohun Bagan. Again, this is no different to previous mergers like with Hayes & Yeading United, Solihull Moors, and Inverness Caledonian Thistle where the clubs merged but stayed in the same leagues. What we need is independent and reliable sources which actually show that this is the same team, that Mohun Bagan from the I-League got promoted to the Indian Super League. All I can find are sources saying that this is a brand new club, a newly formed club, a new entity. Sources are stating that this team was formed on 1 June or 10 July. You can't even say that "a lot of things has changed" since January without sourcing how. Even the AFC stuff is not really reliable. The AIFF could have worded it as that AFC Cup Group Stage spot belonging to the I-League champions but because Mohun Bagan merged with ATK, ATK Mohun Bagan is taking it over. That same article also mentioned ATK winning the AFC Cup qualification spot but that they will qualify for the group stage as a result of the merger. Look, at the end of the day, majority of sources which are independent and reliable are saying the same thing, that ATK Mohun Bagan is a newly formed club which was officially launched on 10 July 2020. At best you could say this is a new avatar but it shows a clear encyclopedic difference between I-League Mohun Bagan and ISL ATK Mohun Bagan FC. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 15:58, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

• Yeah same here please change the name SoumyaEAST (talk) 16:14, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

• All the social media pages of ATK has changed their name to ATK Mohunbagan FC.

Even indian super league website didn't make a new club profile page for atk mohunbagan fc. They just replaced name and logo of atkfc profile page with atk mohunbagan fc. It seems like rebranding of atkfc. We should wait for the official website of atkmb fc to get a clear idea about the club. Abhishe78 (talk) 17:25, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

• Most of the sources hailed reliable here like The Bridge, Goal or Sportskeeda is deemed as useless while editing transfers here in Wikipedia.None of the official sources have claimed it to be a new club. And you can never "adopt" the history of a club. I find it funny that some lame and useless example of amateur English clubs are being repeatedly cited here while conveniently looking aside the example of Al-Duhail SC. Two clubs merged two form a new identity, new crest, new name everything but one of the old club gets to keep their records and AFC representation is based only that clubs performance records. So here the old page was just renamed without much fuss. And just to make it clear even in A-League the league winners gets the highest spot in AFC. So that is nothing new with the ISL Debarghya89 (talk) 18:04, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Also I find it amusing that do people really believe that a club like Mohun Bagan has ceased to exist and the Kolakta Derby has become extinct. So the next time the stats will say that this is the first ever Kolakta Derby between ATKMB and East Bengal? And we will start our records and stats from 2020? And all the while the players will practice in the historic club grounds and pass through the club gates that say "Founded 1889".That is amusing.Whatever, this discussion is going nowhere and I am sure the fans dont care either. They will do what they have done all this while and sooner or later the prefix ATK will be extinct.Again i cannot stop wondering how the next time if we win the CFL it will be called as the first ever CFL by the club!! Debarghya89 (talk) 18:12, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

I don't see the situation as the same as with Al-Duhail SC. There are plenty of official and independent sources for that club that explicitly state that the name of the club was changed and there were no indications that it was a new club but a rebrand. For ATK Mohun Bagan FC we have had official and independent sources state that this is a "new club" or "newly formed club" or "new entity". And you can't just throw those independent sources away. They are used for transfers but are removed when they leave any doubt like when goal.com says "X is about to sign with Y", otherwise those sites have been used for transfers before. They are never removed unless they don't actually say a player has moved. So I am not sure what your point is there. Also, who cares about the level of the clubs, that doesn't matter (Indian football is not far from that level anyway). Twente in the Netherlands is another, that prominent enough? One of the ones above is in the Scottish Premiership which is probably higher than Qatar. Also, you want official sources that say it is a new club? I have provided plenty of sources for that. Also I don't think people expect the Kolkata derby to disappear or the club to all of a sudden be like "first ever" whatever. You can adopt the history and traditions of your previous clubs. At the end of the day, what is this legally? Were Mohun Bagan promoted to ISL? Was that same team promoted? Or did RSPG Group and Mohun Bagan form a new group to form a new entity and started making a football club? Everything points towards the latter, the fact that all the wording in press releases is about the "new entity", retaining the colors and traditions of Bagan while also retaining the youthfulness of ATK etc. It shows that this is a new entity, a new club and thus we need a new page for it. Have Mohun Bagan A.C. be for all the other departments of the club. This is somewhat similar to a team like the Portland Timbers who had a club of the same name in USL First Division before up to Major League Soccer. The team was a new club but retained the Timbers name, colors, and history. Why do I say this? Because again all sources whether official or not, have said this is a newly formed club which was launched on 1 June 2020 or 10 July 2020. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 19:11, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

• Um... The opponent is not as informative as the proponent. I think the opponent is not ready to accept the reality. To me the merger proposal wasn't attacked over the IFA or AFC issue but the opposition is centered around circumstantial thing. This leads me to give my final verdict that the merger proposal is reasonably correct even though some of the writers are not being able to accept that. Aarul Chandekar (talk) 03:27, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Dude, why are you trying to be philosophical all of a sudden? Get out of here with that rubbish. Also, this is a discussion so please, go ahead and explain where I am wrong? From what I am reading it is you who is upset at what I am saying and are resulting to... I don't even know. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 04:17, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

To show that I am being fair, that I am not having a bias nor am I unwilling to accept reality... I'll help you out. The official press release for ATK Mohun Bagan literally says "ATK Mohun Bagan will once again make their presence felt on the international ground" and goes on to call this the "new avatar". The definition of avatar is "phase or version of a continuing basic entity". Take that for what you will. I am not against a merger if needs be but I do believe based on other sources that this is technically a new club. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 04:25, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

1) This team will play in AFC Cup and CFL on Mohun Bagan's spot. While in ISL you can buy and trade franchise slots from team to team, it can't be done with AFC. If ATK Mohun Bagan FC was a new club with no prior history, they would not be playing in AFC Cup. So this points to the direction of this being a continuation of Mohun Bagan's football team, albeit with new branding. 2) The ATK Mohun Bagan Private Limited is owned by KGSPL, Mohun Bagan Society and Tutu Basu (nominal symbolic share). KGSPL is owned by several individuals. But Mohun Bagan Society is not owned by anyone; it's an entity of its own. So the share distribution is between Mohun Bagan and some individuals. There is no presence of ATK here. So this is, ultimately, the Mohun Bagan football department under new corporate ownership. This is easily verifiable by looking at the AOA document. It's evident that ATK's presence in the name is just a branding choice made by KGSPL, in line with previous practices. There is no entity called ATK that's present in this partnership. 3) The press releases that some users are pointing to are basically corporate spin aimed at appeasing everybody without offending anyone; those are not reflective of actual reality. As evident with the club's presence in AFC Cup; this is not a new team. 4) In response to a point made earlier by ArsenalFan700, if ATK had won the ISL league stage, and this team was playing in ACL, it would have indicated a continuation of ATK's history. But that's not the case here. This team is continuing Mohun Bagan's linearity, without a doubt. 5) If a football team being taken over by a new corporate entity warranted the creation of a new Wikipedia article, then there should have been a separate entry for Quess East Bengal, for example. But that was not the case for obvious reasons. The same standard should apply here. Figoitjodfj (talk) 05:38, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

• Note to Admins: There are way too many newly created accounts in this discussion and to me that can't be a coincidence. Especially in that they know how to ping users. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 05:56, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
• Response: I am not sure what you mean by your first point. We literally have sources stating that ATK Mohun Bagan will play in the AFC Cup via Mohun Bagan's spot. It is possible to simply take over a spot. I also don't get your second point. ATK Mohun Bagan is owned by ATK Mohun Bagan Private Limited. That company is owned by Sanjiv Goenka, Souav Ganguly, Utsav, and Mohun Bagan. Mohun Bagan as a society is continuing, yes, but this football team is under a new entity which can point towards this being a new club, especially when they claim that the team was launched for the first time on 10 July. Your fourth point goes back to my first point in that ATK Mohun Bagan would have taken over the spot. We have indications that the club could have taken either, even from the AIFF press release. And finally, your fifth point isn't similar to this. Quess bought a 70% stake in the club and formed a new corporate entity. Sanjiv Goenka bought into Mohun Bagan and merged the two clubs into a new entity and team. "The new football club will have brand names of ATK and Mohun Bagan." --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 05:56, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Response: (talk) Those are not "sources." You are simply quoting press releases that as I said earlier are attempts to appease everyone and avoid controversy, as is commonplace with such statements. To disprove my point you simply have to cite a previous instance where a newly born club with no history that has played in AFC Cup or AFC Champions League directly. Also, to ping a user, a basic knowledge of HTML is sufficient. Wikipedia works the same way as most other sites.

Response to earlier comment about club name: There is no AFC rule that bans clubs from using investor brands as part of the name. For example, in AFC Champions League 2020 there are clubs like Jewonbuk Hyundai Motors, Suwon Samsung Bluewings, Ulsan Hyundai, and Vissel Kobe. There is, however, an implicit policy in ISL that does not sanction investor branding; but it's enforced in a roundabout way via a clause in the AIFF's club licensing regulations that says "The AIFF shall reserve the right to approve the name under which the company participates in the national competitions." So ultimately if AIFF and FSDL want, they can approve any name. Figoitjodfj (talk) 06:14, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

References

When I use a press release, when I use articles from the Indian Super League, goal.com, Times of India, The Hindu etc. those are sources, a lot of them reliable and independent sources so I don't know what you're trying to prove here. Whether the press releases are done to appease everyone, that is up to the closing admin to decide unless you're the one who wrote those. Also, not sure about your last point at all. No one is discussing the club's name. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 06:27, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Response: The articles from Goal or TOI you are citing are mere reports that repeat the same quotes from the press releases that are nothing but vanilla corporate statements made to avoid controversy. They are not pieces independent investigative journalism. There is a big difference. As I said ArsenalFan700, if you think ATK Mohun Bagan FC is a whole new club that has just been born, please name another newly born club that directly played in AFC Cup without earning qualification via the domestic league & cup. The other response about the name was to a point made earlier, that you can see scrolling above; not to anything you said. Figoitjodfj (talk) 06:39, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I just don't agree with that. You want investigative journalism? These a news articles which have been reporting for months on this and not just copy and pasting press releases. A lot of the source I provided aren't even press releases! And look, I don't know of another instance in AFC or any other confederation of this happening. Quite frankly, I don't even know what that would prove as this could be a first instance of this happening with a new club. At the end of the day, I said my bit and presented my case and sources. I don't need a new user telling me what are sources and what isn't. I'll let the closing admin take it from here because frankly, there isn't much more to be discussed now. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 06:53, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Dear ArsenalFan700 you are simply avoiding the only provable point in this whole discussion - How can ATK Mohun Bagan FC play AFC Cup, if it's a newly born club that has never won the ISL or I-League? Also, how is it that it is playing in AFC Cup on Mohun Bagan's spot? By which rule can an AFC Cup spot be transferred from one club to another, is there such a clause listed in the Sporting Criteria of AFC? If yes, please cite where. If there is no such clause, then the very fact that this team is playing AFC Cup on Mohun Bagan's slot proves that this is the same team as Mohun Bagan, with a minor re-branding. Citing articles that repeat the press release talking point of "merger" proves nothing unless you can demonstrate the sporting validity of your argument. It doesn't matter whether I am a new user or not, I am asking you to back up your claim. If you cannot, your claim stands disproven. I hope your next response includes the proof, otherwise you are simply wasting everybody's time. Figoitjodfj (talk) 07:02, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

The AFC Club competitions entry requirements cited by Mr. Kariyappa and Mr. Debarghya showed that no new club can enter into the AFC Cup in its first season. Mr/s. Arsenal Fan might also appreciate that it can be taken to be the concluding evidence uncontroversially. Aarul Chandekar (talk) 07:07, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Just to help out everyone, I would like to post the link to download the AFC Club competitions entry manual. https://www.the-afc.com/documents/entry-manual-afc-club-competitions-2017-2020-33728 Thank all M Kariyappa (talk) 07:22, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

• Comment: We literally have a source from goal.com going through how each spot was awarded. Slot 1, the AFC Champions League spot, is for Goa as they were the Indian Super League league stage winners. If Goa were to not pass the club licensing criteria then that spot will go to ATK. Slot 2, the AFC Cup group stage slot, would have gone to Mohun Bagan as they were the I-League winners. However, goal.com then goes on to explain "But as Mohun Bagan have entered into a merger with ATK and will form a new entity which will come into effect from June 2020 and will take part in the ISL 2020-21 season, their AFC Cup slot will now be availed by the newly formed ATK-Mohun Bagan. As ATK are the majority stakeholders in the new club, it is well within their rights to field the new team in the AFC Cup, utilising the continental slot that Bagan earned." Not only is it explicitly stated that this is a newly formed club, but it is also stated that this club can utilize the spot that Bagan earned. So that is how ATK Mohun Bagan FC, even as a new club, can be part of the AFC Cup.

Additionally, users here have tried to argue about the AFC regulations. Those don't make sense for India as our league structure isn't the same. The first criteria for the AFC is that the winner of the national top division league enters. That isn't true for India as the ISL champions ATK didn't get the first spot, but Goa, the league stage winners entered. The second criteria is the winner of the knock-out cup. We have the Super Cup but that doesn't qualify you for Asian competition. That spot is used for the Indian Super League champions as that is a "playoff tournament". The third criteria is the runners up and third place in the national top division. All of this and yet, our second division league has direct qualification to the AFC Cup for at least three seasons! So how can anyone here use the AFC regulations when they are obviously different in Indian football? It is a moot point in the end. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 07:28, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Again ArsenalFan700 you are simply citing a badly written article that just repeats a talking point without explaining anything. It says 'ATK Mohun Bagan is availing the spot of Mohun Bagan' without ever bothering to explain under which AFC rule it's possible for them to do so. I repeat, please show me the rule in AFC's regulation that permits a new club - whether merged or not - that can avail an AFC slot won by a different club. I can write something like "the cow climbed the tree and produced Coca Cola from its udders" but will it mean anything if I can't explain how it did so? Why are you citing articles that simply repeat talking points from a single source (the company that's putting out spin to avoid controversy), then claiming it explains everything? The AFC granted I-League the AFC spot as a special consideration during a transition phase, but citing that as an excuse for how you can't explain why ATK Mohun Bagan is playing in Mohun Bagan's spot is pure whataboutery, not a proof. There is no such special consideration that have been issued to any club in the past; the rules for playing in AFC Cup are strict.

FOR ADMINS - The following questions have not been adequately addressed: Under which sporting criteria is ATK Mohun Bagan FC availing Mohun Bagan's spot in AFC Cup and CFL? The rules are there for all to see; please demonstrate which clause allows this to happen. If this cannot be demonstrated, it proves that ATK Mohun Bagan is the same as Mohun Bagan's football team. I make an appeal to everyone; please address this point, because if this point cannor be established then ATK Mohun Bagan's existence as a separate page cannot be justified by Wikipedia's standards. Figoitjodfj (talk) 07:49, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Citing Goal.com quotes are not valid as they are simply opinion of the journalist.Even before the merger was announced it was decided that I-League winners will get a group stage spot in AFC Cup. No controversies about that. If Mohun Bagan ceases to exist after the merger then it is quite obvious the spot would have gone to the runners up of I-League. The fact that the I-League winners are still getting the spot points to the fact that it is the same club continuing.And again as I have said it earlier "NONE" of the official sources like ISL, AIFF or AFC have ever used the word that ATK-MB is a "NEW CLUB". Debarghya89 (talk) 13:29, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

this goes nowhere! afc decided it is atk mb, you have to listen and finally delete mb page squad!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_AFC_Cup — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.1.25.121 (talk) 16:04, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Dear (talk), AFC simply called Mohun Bagan football team by its newly rebranded name, which is ATK Mohun Bagan FC. You or anyone else who keeps insisting that ATK Mohun Bagan is a new club still cannot explain under which rule a club which has no prior history of playing in professional domestic football play in AFC Cup. It's obvious that what's being peddled here is thinly disguised personal bias.

TO EVERYONE - Either point out the AFC rule that allows a new club to play in AFC Cup with no prior history, or accept the fact that ATK Mohun Bagan is simply the Mohun Bagan football team under a new brand name e.g. McDowell Mohun Bagan, Kingfisher East Bengal & Quess East Bengal.

In that case, I need you to provide a source for a rule that allows our second division league to have an AFC Cup group stage spot over our first division champions? --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 18:10, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Dear ArsenalFan700, once again you fail to understand the difference between whataboutery and actual valid points. But let me address the I-League's AFC Cup slot issue. 1) Giving a provisional slot to a competition cannot be conflated with transferring one club's AFC slot to another. The former solves a problem with league structure. The latter opens a pandora's box where any rich club in Asia can just buy another club, call it a "merger" and get their AFC slot. There is a reason why AFC's sporting criteria is so strict, it prevents corruption and manipulation. Conflating the two issues shows you have very little understanding of how the sport works, you are simply throwing up flimsy excuses because you cannot show how Mohun Bagan's AFC slot went to ATK Mohun Bagan if those are not the same team. 2) AFC has given I-League an AFC Cup slot as part of a transition phase. We can point to a meeting in October 2019 where the decision was taken. Can you point to any such meeting where AFC has taken an official decision where the AFC Cup slot won by Mohun Bagan has been transferred to a different club called ATK Mohun Bagan FC? Figoitjodfj (talk) 18:46, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

God, I don't want to respond to this anymore but you keep pulling me back. I am providing you with valid points. The point being that everyone is bringing up the AFC regulations yet it is proven that they don't have to be followed completely and exceptions can be made. The point you are making about the I-League having the AFC Cup spot as part of a transition actually helps that case because again, an exception was made. You can call it whataboutery, I don't care. You wanted proof against the AFC guideline's and I provided evidence that they are not always followed. I also provided a source above about how ATK Mohun Bagan FC can get into the AFC Cup by taking the spot won my Mohun Bagan but you disregard it using your own assumptions and research. In addition, you follow it up by trying to attack me, not being civil and saying "you have very little understanding of how the sport works". In further additional, there is definitely WP:CANVASSING going on here. This is honestly ridiculous now. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 19:32, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Dear ArsenalFan700, the ridiculous part is that you are justifying your failure to show any factual basis of your argument by saying "AFC rules are not always followed." It was indeed you who began to antagonize me saying "I don't need a new user to tell me what's a source" or something like that, but when I respond in kind you cry foul, which is hilarious. I am sorry your feelings cannot handle a debate, but I repeat : show me which rule allows ATK Mohun Bagan to play in AFC Cup and CFL on Mohun Bagan's slot despite not being the same team. Or show me when AFC took the decision to transfer Mohun Bagan's slot to ATK Mohun Bagan, as this kind of decision cannot be taken arbitrarily (the decision to give I-League a provisional AFC Cup slot was taken after a process that took more than a year, on the basis of ground research done by a team of representatives. It was announced via a press release since it was a big exception being made. Show me which process was followed for giving ATK Mohun Bagan a slot won by a different club). You are under no obligation to respond to me, and frankly, your responses so far have not been based on facts. You can choose to ignore me if you feel you cannot actually back up your statements. It is evident that Wikipedia's editorial standards have fallen so much that even when one side is so obviously wrong, the correction is not made because somebody like you gets their feelings hurt. Figoitjodfj (talk) 19:46, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

TO ADMINS - The opponents of the proposal to merge ATK Mohun Bagan's article with Mohun Bagan AC article have not come up with even one real argument that establishes the sporting validity of what they believe in. All they do is cite articles that quote the same people (who have a vested interest in obfuscating the real mechanism under which the team is operating) over and over again, as if repeating the same vapid point somehow strengthens it. They have not been able to show how a new club can play in AFC competitions, or under which rule Mohun Bagan's spot in AFC Cup and CFL can be transferred to ATK Mohun Bagan. It's fairly obvious that these are not two different teams but the same team, with the same logo, same home ground and same colours; albeit with a re-branding which is commonplace in Asian football. Still, somehow no action is being taken to approve the proposal to merge the ATK Mohun Bagan article with Mohun Bagan AC article. If this is how flimsy the standards are at Wikipedia, then this platform is truly not a reflection of objective truths but a blog that runs on the feelings of certain contributors with elevated privileges. Figoitjodfj (talk) 16:47, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

figo... : point of all is that endless talk must stop. afc and club picked new name-new web, (why would you mind how they allowed it) so users have to remove squad from mb page! or at least copy atkmb page under mb football section, with only 1 squad list! and its so stupid to hear that new football page means dissolved mb multisports...not at all !!! lastly...atk should also be merged page as their social media renamed, mb kept multisports cover. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.64.253 (talk) 18:57, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Dear (talk), ATK Mohun Bagan is simply the re-branded name of Mohun Bagan football team, which is why AFC and other official sources are addressing it as such. To prove me wrong, you simply need to do this

1) If ATK Mohun Bagan is a new team, please explain how they are playing in AFC Cup on the slot won by Mohun Bagan, and in CFL Premier Division A on the slot that belongs to Mohun Bagan.

2) If you think this team should be added to ATK's football section, then please explain why this team is NOT playing on the AFC Cup Qualifiers; since that's the spot that was won by ATK. You must also explain why Bengaluru FC got that slot instead of ATK.

Unless you can do this, I'm afraid you're simply adding to the endless nonsense instead of contributing to the discussion. Figoitjodfj (talk) 19:11, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

There is no need to give source for a rule that the AFC themselves have made. They gave a spot to I-League as an exception. And even then they have said it is the champions who will get the spot and not some random new club. And also just because an exception has been made here it does not mean all other AFC rules have become obsolete for India. By that logic tomorrow I can post that ATK-MB is allowed 6 foreigners in AFC Cup. And if anyone asks me for a source I will counter by saying that "you first provide me a source of how second div clubs are allowed in AFC. And thus I conclude that no AFC Rule is valid for Indian clubs." This is plain stupidity. Debarghya89 (talk) 19:20, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Deb! I gave you a source! I literally put it out there stating that ATK Mohun Bagan is availing the spot from ATK Mohun Bagan. I've provided plenty of sources about it being a new club, new entity, newly formed club, all of it. I've provided sources and discussion about why you can't simply look at the AFC regulations even. You guys are the ones trying to play mental gymnastics. If you want, best thing we can do is wait and keep both articles 'for now' until more sources come out to make the situation more clear. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 19:45, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Dear ArsenalFan700 you did not provide a source; you provided an article that simply regurgitated the talking point issued in the press release. Which is why you still have not been able to demonstrate HOW it is possible that ATK Mohun Bagan FC can just pick up a slot earned by a supposedly different club. To be honest, the reason behind that is THERE IS NO SUCH RULE, it's not possible for a new club to meet AFC's sporting criteria and play in AFC Cup. And please don't repeat the "AFC rules are not always followed" point; if all rules are arbitrary it's rather pointless to have any discussion at all. I agree with Debarghya89's proposal and I don't see any valid point against it. To be honest, I think this is my last post here. My first attempted contribution to Wikipedia editing has showed me how little value actual facts are given here. Over the last 24 hours no one has been able to produce a result to my question, yet certain people continue to oppose this proposal without proper justifications. This is a disappointment and a waste of time. Far be it for a new user like me to keep you all busy. It appears all of you old users have it under control. Figoitjodfj (talk) 20:01, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

its not important, they agreed to take group entry in afc cup, thing is finally 2 same squads from 2 pages must be removed and pick 1 to stay! if nobody wants that its vandalism. i said afc decided to call them atkmb and separate football page can add "founded 1889 as mb athletic" ... if you cant understand, why updating here at all — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.64.253 (talk) 19:22, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Dear (talk) you are looking at it backwards. ATK Mohun Bagan FC cannot be labelled "founded 1889 as X" since that would imply Mohun Bagan Athletic Club has changed its name to ATK Mohun Bagan FC, which is untrue. ATK Mohun Bagan FC is simply the re-branded name of the football department of Mohun Bagan Athletic Club and does not warrant a separate article. Did we have a separate article called Quess East Bengal FC with the label "Founded in 1920 as East Bengal FC"? No. Don't just make up arbitrary standards as you go along. Does Wikipedia have any editorial standards or has it gone to the gutters? Figoitjodfj (talk) 19:30, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

af you could delete mb squad many times so dont add the talk! and figo..., im ok as long as you can put atkmb logo and info under mb page, to end having 2 pages!

RESPONSE to whoever wrote the above paragraph (without singing it) - Mohun Bagan club has not changed its logo, only its football department has changed its logo. As was the case with McDowell Mohun Bagan, Kingfisher East Bengal and Quess East Bengal. Was the logo changed in the main wikipedia articles in those cases? If so by those standards the logo can be changed and the info regarding ATK Mohun Bagan can be added in the history section. If it wasn't the case on those occasions then precedent dictates that the logo in Mohun Bagan AC page should not be changed. Figoitjodfj (talk) 19:50, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

if wont change logo on mb page then new football page is needed (or add logo with atkmb history section)...simply! but new logo has to be seen somewhere, just as mb old logo which is same for other sports...and, finally accept that afc decides as they wish, under names they pick, for interest they have. users update as it is, not as someone thinks. ask afc or atkmb for urself legally later. this is system failure, all have to update as it is not discuss as they are somebody deciding just bcos can post online... atkmb logo must be seen under mb or separate page all story...for gods sake indian people are like aiff who made mess with 2 leagues and all later! when many shudras or pariahs act as bhramins! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.64.253 (talk) 19:59, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

• Another Comment: the discussion is leading nowhere. the clubs are separate. so, separate pages. also, there are a lot new account and IPs ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ . ❯❯❯   S A H A 14:26, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

do it someone finally, delete players and coach from mb multisport page! all over here — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.64.253 (talk) 16:19, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Mohun Bagan's winning history will carry forward by this club Avi1962 (talk) 19:14, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Some foreign club's Wikipedia page has different sports section so we need to add same in Mohun Bagan AC page and add this page link to Mohun Bagan AC football section as simple as that Avi1962 (talk) 19:17, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Some mohun bagan fans who are saying because atkmb is taking afc spot of mohunbagan so atkmb is continuation of Mohunbagan club. U can't justify continuation of Mohun Bagan by this because merger was pre decided At that time neither ATK nor mohunbagan assured of a place in afc competitions. Abhishe78 (talk) 02:21, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

In press release of January there was wrote that RPSG group buy 80% share of Mohun Bagan Football club private limited. So what it mean for? R in CFL or AFC no new team is allowed to participate in top division Avi1962 (talk) 05:33, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Did u read whole press release statement or just ome line? Press release says ""This move will see the two football clubs coming together into a new merged identity to compete in the rapidly growing professional Indian football landscape.

The new football club will have brand names of ATK and Mohun Bagan. RPSG Group will become 80 % majority shareholder alongside Mohun Bagan Football Club (India) Private Limited owning the remaining 20 % shares.""

Here is the link https://themohunbaganac.com/rp-sanjiv-goenka-group-acquires-majority-stake-in-mohun-bagan-football-club-india-private-limited/ It clearly used words like new merged identity and new football club. Just wait for some more days everything will be clear once website of ATK Mohunbagan will start. Abhishe78 (talk) 07:54, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

AFC never allow a new club to participate in AFC championship Avi1962 (talk) 09:52, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

its over club and afc use atkmb so someone has to delete or add "final squad" on separated mb page...any legal way to stop minority who lost this debate finally — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.131.184.17 (talk) 18:18, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

What's the minority ATK Mohun Bagan is the football entity of Mohun Bagan Avi1962 (talk) 18:49, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

its ok but different page has exist, players will wear atkmb logo not mb athletic!!! thats all about, remove them from mb but link subpage!!!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.131.184.17 (talk) 22:40, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Further comment

IFA doc: Mohun Bagan AC wishes to change its IFA affiliation to ATK Mohun Bagan Pvt. Ltd. and Kolkata Games and Sports Pvt. Ltd.(ATK club) desires to get dis-affiliated from IFA as it has merged with Mohun Bagan. Secretary of IFA, Joydeep Mukherjee's letter to Memebers of Governing Body IFA dated 18th July.

I think after this letter there needs no more discussion, this shows indeed MBAC exists and ATK is dissolved and the new team is representing MB. Along with all other proves in my initial two comments, its evidently the Mohun Bagan. Merge is the available option now. Drat8sub (talk) 08:23, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes no need to discussion after IFA letter Avi1962 (talk) 09:27, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

At last, we have this obvious solution. M Kariyappa (talk) 09:36, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Dear, User:Drat8sub as you are an experienced user at least than me, can you please complete the task? M Kariyappa (talk) 10:49, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

This letter shows that mohun bagan has changed its name from mohun bagan athletic club to ATK Mohunbagan. Change the logo and page name of mohunbagan ac with the logo of ATK mohunbagan. Abhishe78 (talk) 12:18, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

I propose to create a section in the page (to save the page from getting dragged into similar confusion) named Footballing Entity. The logo, owners' names, directors' names etc. can be kept under that section as per the valuable proposal from User:Abhishe78. After all, the club had been there earlier with the same logo while its football team started to wear a little different crest (as mandated by owners) from McDowell era. M Kariyappa (talk) 12:40, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Drat8sub (talk · contribs) Great find! I could change my opinion over but there are a lot of ways we can interpret that email. Also that it hasn't come from a verified source (yes, I know about The Fan Garage's article, no that is not a reliable source). That isn't important though because I believe that it is real, just can be interpreted in different ways. Before we jump the gun, I would like to wait a bit longer. You guys don't like independent sources and all that but that is how wikipedia works. I want to wait until we get more from the club about what they consider themselves, when their foundation date is, and what they are. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 13:44, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Please don't mind User:ArsenalFan700 but we can't really wait forever to have the absolutely inevitable merger done. I respect your thoughts but I think we should keep this discussion page open but get the merger done. We can get valuable inputs at different times but the merger should be completed now. I went ahead with it as a newcomer but you perhaps could have avoided being too harsh by reverting everything without reason. M Kariyappa (talk) 14:08, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

We can while there is no clear consensus over what this team is. In my opinion, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that this is a new team while there is also evidence to suggest it is the same team. I personally feel like there is more to suggest the former but I also don't mind waiting to see what more sources say. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 15:46, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Someone please change the players names. It's shows old Mohun Bagan players Avi1962 (talk) 14:48, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

its over, still add current squad, staff, league... all under that subpage! until correct never mind if unusual.

Unless your personal feelings are backed up with evidence like the points raised by the supporters of merger proposals are, I'm afraid you are trying to get all into a never ending cycle which isn't a great idea. M Kariyappa (talk) 16:18, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

For ArsFan, here is an 'independent source' that you wanted. https://thefangarage.com/articles/17527-cfl-2020--atk-disaffiliated-from-ifa-mohun-bagan-to-play-with-new-brand-name I hope this will suffice for you to stop the circular pathway. Please don't add comments for repeating your opinion unless you have at least something to negate the validity of this report and more importantly, the validity of that letter from IFA (West Bengal) secretary. M Kariyappa (talk) 16:39, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

This is now nothing more than personal bias. Choosing whimsically which source is reliable and which not. The Bridge which has run propaganda articles for ATK is independent and reliable because it supports my view and anything that do not support my view is not reliable. Debarghya89 (talk) 16:58, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Comment: I have no idea about The Bridge being biased as pro-ISL. It is a sports website for Indian sports. The Fan Garage is a little over a blog. Also, personal bias, that is a low point even for you deb to accuse me of just because this is your team. I started this discussion as pro-merger, then changed my mind after looking through various sources. Later I even provided you guys with sources to support a merger, and now I am in support of it again. So bias? No. Am I stubborn? Yes, I am. Up till now, your only proof was the AFC rules which have already been shown to be loose with Indian football and with an article to show how ATK Mohun Bagan FC could take it over. Finally, we have an article that shows explicitly that this is a continuation of Mohun Bagan. So I am in support of it. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 18:45, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

For reliable source

The Mohun Bagan-ATK merger will not change the governance structure of the Mohun Bagan Athletic Club, for the club and its football team are run by two separate bodies. The new company, though, will have no control over the club ground, dressing-room or anything that are related to Mohun Bagan Athletic Club. The club’s executive committee will continue to be in charge of those. The Indian Express, 17 January 2020

Mohun Bagan’s athletic and cricket teams will not be under ATK’s control. Sportskeeda by Indranil Basu, 4 Jun 2020

ArsenalFan700, I don't know how I've missed these. I think hardly anything remains in doubt. MBAC exists and evidently thats why they did not change the website or any other social media handles. It's a merger of ATK and football entity of MBAC i.e, "Mohun Bagan Football Club (India) Pvt. Ltd.". And the newly formed entity is football club or team of the MBAC with new name or new avatar. Drat8sub (talk) 17:32, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

We actually prejudiced by the merger things and miss the important thing that sources did not say it's a merger of MB Athletic Club, they always maintained it's about Mohun Bagan Football club, viz. RPSG Group, which owns ATK, announced on Thursday that they will acquire a majority stake in Mohun Bagan Football Club, which will make them 80% shareholders with Mohun Bagan Football Club (India) Private Limited owning the remaining 20%. by ESPN along with other sources like Sportstar1, Mohun Bagan Athletic Club2 or even ISL saying Hero I league champions Mohun Bagan FC formally merging to form ATK Mohun Bagan FC. So I don't think, since it is established that MBAC exists, there's a need for any more thing to be established here. So, the closing admin can merge and redirect and we can write the history section accordingly and the logo thing will be written too as mentioned in my first comment. Drat8sub (talk) 18:31, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

See, this is what I wanted if we were going to show that ATK Mohun Bagan FC is a continuation of Mohun Bagan. I think this is actually more than sufficient and clearly shows through reliable and independent sources that this is the case. However, I do think then that the Mohun Bagan page would need a MASSIVE facelift to get it up to par, not sure what is going on there right now with the colours in the infobox and stuff. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 18:45, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

ArsenalFan700, yes, I agree..after the merger, we need to restructure the article totally and rewrite the history section properly to keep any scope for further confusion. And, one thing I want to bring to your notice that, you should cut the above oppose comment above which is usually done when opinion changes and highlight the merge with additional comment, otherwise it will confuse whoever close the discussion. And this discussion, my goodness !! Thank you. Drat8sub (talk) 20:41, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Done. Yeah, the history section will for sure need to be redone then and also to make clear that technically ATK's history is also being absorbed into this team (thus what the ISL means when Roy Krishna re-signed with ATK Mohun Bagan). I also think we need a disambiguation page for all the Mohun Bagan pages as well as the departments box. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 21:15, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Why we needed two pages or subpages for same content I think we need to add this page link to mbac football section . And also atkmb page doesn't show any honour bt the atkmb is a football entity of Mohun Bagan so it's carry forward mohunbagan's honour Avi1962 (talk) 21:20, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

AFan is talking about WP:DISAMBIG and WP:REDIR, which are helpful for navigation. Drat8sub (talk) 23:11, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Abhigyan Absolutely! There is no TWO entity. It's just Mohun Bagan, with a new corporate sponsor ATK, just like we had UB group previously. So the prefix ATK has the same instrumentality like the term "McDowell'". Thus having two pages for the same entity will be misleading and erroneous in approach. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.113.101.74 (talk) 07:36, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

• Question: is the discussion over? cant see any proper conclusion here, but the pages have already merged. ❯❯❯   S A H A 15:41, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

  • Comment: mcdowell mb did use 1889, but atkmb can't use. because that was a sponsorship, and this is merger. source. also, dont know, what can be more reliable than mb website. "The new football club will have brand names of ATK and Mohun Bagan." ❯❯❯   S A H A 15:44, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

I wouldn't say it is over yet as an admin hasn't come yet to close the discussion and create the mergers. ATK Mohun Bagan FC and Mohun Bagan still remain as separate pages for the time being. The Indian Express article helped me switch but you could make a few points to sway back to oppose. The article starts by stating "The Mohun Bagan-ATK merger will not change the governance structure of the Mohun Bagan Athletic Club, for the club and its football team are run by two separate bodies". So the sporting club, Mohun Bagan, and the football club Mohun Bagan are ran by two different bodies. In 1998, when Mohun Bagan entered into an agreement with the United Breweries Group, the group was called United Mohun Bagan Private Limited and it ran the football club. At this point, this is obviously still the same club formed in 1899 but just under "new ownership". Following UB Group leaving the club, the company became known as Mohun Bagan Football Club Private Limited. The club, which is separate from the company, nominates directors for the company.

Now, after the merger, a new company is formed in which RPSG Group will have an 80% stake while 'Mohun Bagan Football Club Pvt Ltd' will have 20%. The article then ends stating that the new company "will have no control over the club ground, dressing-room or anything that are related to Mohun Bagan Athletic Club". Now, this is up for interpretation about whether this is a new club or just the same club under a new ownership. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 16:03, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

ArsenalFan700, but atkmb content is already added in this page. I think it needs to be reverted. I also agree with the point that mbac is separate. i have mentioned this before. the footballing departments of both club have merged into a new club. i will prefer sticking to official club and governing body websites and data. and mb website clearly says new club. (if mb is saying this, why the doubt arise?). media can be biased towards anybody. also, regarding the ifa licensing, that's only for cfl. aiff licensing is different. this also has a reason. if atkmb registered as a new club in ifa, they had to start with 4th/5th division. atk is in 1st division and MB is in premiere div A. that's why they went with MB licensing. ❯❯❯   S A H A 16:16, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

---

Continuing discussion following reversal of close

In AFC also atkmb play under Mohun Bagan credentials. No new club allow to participate in AFC tournament Avi1962 (talk) 16:41, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

And in India it's necessary for a club to register under state football association this is the primary registration of this club Avi1962 (talk) 16:42, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Avi1962, source? ❯❯❯   S A H A 17:30, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Every Indian clubs need to be registered to their respective state associations. Dont come up with your own logic that in IFA it is the same club in AIFF it is different. Dont bark source at others when you yourself dont have one. Dont make foolish comments like MB official site said so, when according to you this is a new club. Debarghya89 (talk) 08:56, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Arnab, it has been well established above that football entities of MBAC i.e, Mohun Banagan Football club (company MB Football Club Pvt. ltd) merged with ATK and the new entity will be representing MBAC. Thus, the onus is onto you to provide citation to say whatevr you are saying. Otherwise it's nothing but being WP:POINTy and WP:Stonewalling the move. Drat8sub (talk) 21:07, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

For your kind information, i have provided sources for my opinions. neither i have asked anything from you. i asked avi. if he doesnt want to reply, i dont mind. i am not forcing him. i request you not to reply me further. ❯❯❯   S A H A 06:42, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

• Proposal: keep atkmb section in mbac article, as it was few revisions back (as per the above discussion). and also keep the separate article (as per official website of mbac, isl and news portals like goal.com). ❯❯❯   S A H A 06:42, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

• "i request you not to reply me further." You are free to leave the discussion if you don't like refutal and counterarguments. Again by saying this you still sticking to stonewalling and failure to listen and not adhere to WP:NOTUNANIMITY and trying to game the system. You need to learn Wikiquette and Civility. Secondly, consensus has been reached, when the Mohun Bagan article is already existing, where its football history is already kept and as atkmb is representing Mohun Bagan, there is no need to create another article as it does not satify WP:SPLITTING. Drat8sub (talk) 08:23, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

  if consensus is reached, then remove the discussion templates. that's my choice, whether I will leave a discussion or not. u don't have to tell me that. also u should learn civility, agf, no personal without just gaming the system ❯❯❯   S A H A 08:55, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

• Hey why are removing template and removing football from the infobox. What are you trying to achieve??? Stop this. Drat8sub (talk) 09:03, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

• Some more things:

  1. "The new football club will have brand names of ATK and Mohun Bagan." if atkmb is not a new club, then why MB and isl website says this
  2. different articles: mbac doesn't control atkmb directly, as it did before. mbac is responsible only for cricket, hockey etc. and this is AC article. just like all other club article, the football department should have a separate article. ❯❯❯   S A H A 09:21, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

First, it has been discussed already above. Did MB and ISL say that its MBAC. No, its MBfootball clu which is the football entity of MBAC and atk merged to this as you have already agreed in your comments. "MBAC doesn't control atkmb directly", it does not matter, as when some corporate involves a new governing body is formed and that controls the entity. Governing body always consists of the club's representative along with share holders. Its in case of all teams. Just like when McDowells came a new governing body or management controlled the entity or take example of Quess East Bengal, where quess has the sporting rights and the control of the team for which so much problem was created. Important thing is representing the club and ATKMB is representing Mohun Bagan. I hope you undersatnd this. Drat8sub (talk) 09:41, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

1. KEB, QEB, MMB never said we are amalgamating into a new club. but mb did say.
2. couldn't find any answer to my 2nd question. ❯❯❯   S A H A 13:34, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

• It has been answered multiple times sources, but either you are not reading or you have made your mind that you will not listen. Mohun Bagan never said that Mohun Bagan Athletic Club amalgated, it exists. ATK MB is a new entity after atk merged to MB Football Club Pvt. Ltd. (football club or entity of MBAC) not to MBAC itself and no one denying it. But this new entity ATK MB club is representing Mohun Bagan Athletic Club. There is no evidence of ATK's existence left, and is dissolved. All of these are discussed earlier. That's why as the new entity is representing MBAC only, there is no need of creating another article, we just need to rewrite the history section of the MBAC article. Asking same thing to all, who have agreed to move in a particular direction, will be a harassment. What you are doing is pure case of Point illustrating and WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, ignoring the consensus just because you have created the article. You have created the article and by merging the attributes are not taken from you, all materials are attributed to you and thats why there is no delete but merge and redirect. We are keeping the materials that you added, it will there at MBAC article. Drat8sub (talk) 20:33, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

  its not clearly mentioned what to do next with the articles (rather than just merge and reworking history). try to listen and think about anything without writing policies. and article creation doesnt matter here.

  mbac controls cricket, hockey, athletics. mbac is owned by tutu bose, mb society etc. football has been disbanded from mbac. atkmb represents mbac, and the football club's official name is atkmb, owned by atkmb pvt. ltd. mbac doesnt play football. atkmb plays plays to represent mb, but its not the same.

  now, mbac article should be a sports club article, because technically its a sports club. what name to use? what logo to use? then there should a new level 1 heading, another infobox just for atkmb. also for all the clubs departments have different articles. before moving to anything, the decisions should be made clear to all participants, since this is a consensus. ❯❯❯   S A H A 05:27, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

  eg- eb women's team didn't have quess eb logo, since the owners were different. ❯❯❯   S A H A 06:51, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

• What to do next: This is exactly what to do, to merge and rewrite the history section accordingly, it's crystal clear. Infobox can also merged and consolidated, multiple infobox can be put together, it not a big deal and no need of "another infobox". For logo it will also be written, as already mentioned in my first comment. Drat8sub (talk) 07:26, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

  what about the name/heading? also, the season article shouldn't be renamed. ❯❯❯   S A H A 08:19, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

• Name heading of what? New season article will be 2020-21 ATK Mohun Bagan season and will continue as such until any change in future. And the records will be kept accordingly. Secondly, it is predominantly football club and participated in multi-sports, and we will follow and adapt as all other football clubs articles which are similar to this, viz. FC Bayern Munich, Atlético Madrid, AFC Ajax, Flamengo, Palmeiras, etc Drat8sub (talk) 09:07, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

  Drat8sub, bayern munich didnt merge with anybody. this case is different. here the parent doesn't control football anymore. ❯❯❯   S A H A 09:45, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

• Oh God ! Stop this please for God's sake. Enough of this harassment please. This was discussed here before. When United Breweries Group formed "United MB Pvt.Ltd.", it had control but not the parent company "MB India Pvt.Ltd." Similarly for any football club. Take East Bengal's example, "East Bengal Pvt. Ltd" the parent company had no control on EB but "United East Bengal Football Team Pvt.Ltd." when United Breweries Group was there or "Quess East Bengal Fc Pvt. Ltd" when Quess was there. The discussion is not about who has control but whom they represent and is well established above. So, stop this once and for all. Drat8sub (talk) 10:08, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
• And those article was for taking ideas to adapt how to rewrite the article to include all information in structured way, I am not saying this is case or that is the case, those articles are of football clubs with multiple sports participation. And don't ping me. You make your point and we refuted and made our counter arguments. So stop this badgering again and again. Drat8sub (talk) 10:16, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

  when did I harass? can u assume good faith and reply politely? if its harassment for u, and u don't want to reply, then don't reply. also no personal attacks as u did there. ❯❯❯   S A H A 10:55, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

@drat: fantastic point...then why this isnt finally deleted/merged:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATK_Mohun_Bagan_FC — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.2.86.98 (talk) 08:35, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Keep patience, it will be done...sometime it takes time to closure. Drat8sub (talk) 08:55, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

The Wikipedia pages of Mohun Bagan AC & ATK Mohun Bagan FC shouldn't be merged as ATKMBFC has been registered completely as a new entity. I also believe in the next 8-10 years, MB owners might buy the other 80% shares from ATK after having made some good profits from the deal, which is a possibility and RPSG will restart ATK FC. RishuRaj90 (talk) 14:04, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

ATKMB has not been registered anywhere as a new entity. Don't put your opinion here unless you have anything to back it up. IFA Registration of Mohun Bagan remains as such with just change in name. Debarghya89 (talk) 13:54, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Now the official twitter handle of ATK Mohun Bagan has confirmed that the foundation of the club is 15th August 1889. (https://twitter.com/atkmohunbaganfc/status/1294536804532719616?s=19) Debarghya89 (talk) 08:46, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

• Update: atkmb also seems like a rebranding of atk. they mentioned extension of a player's contract. here. incase of mb players, its using "signing" .also, ISL website using ATK's club profile. this is 2014 table. So, this is a 50-50 case. A.E.K. (sports club) this method should be applied. ❯❯❯   S A H A 14:59, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

  some more things. Habas extended contract with ATK FC in the last season and automatically contracted for ATKMB. also, as per their lastest tweets and all, they have replaced the maroon with red. More like a rebranding. ❯❯❯   S A H A 12:13, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Arbitrary section for non topic and merge process discussion

only question now, who, how, when will close this, merge them and protect from edit war

Why u guys delete football entity section from mohunbagan ac Avi1962 (talk) 10:30, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

it has to be linked and shortened if remains, and all data fixed (stadium capacity 85,000 for example etc). only then short mb and longer atkmb football articles can stay. as long as both abused as full length, all this is useless just as i league-isl comedy. ban few vandals too dont let them keep mess...users must lock this topic and do by own tools to be right! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.2.86.98 (talk) 10:40, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

just one more detail guys: this history part on mb page needs linking of last word (entity) as i did on unlocked mb history page

ATK Mohun Bagan Private Limited ATK and Mohun Bagan had decided to merge its football division back in January 2020 that would help Mohun Bagan enter the ISL and AFC Cup from the 2020-21 season, under the name of ATK Mohun Bagan.[20] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.1.26.219 (talk) 16:05, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Atk Mohun Bagan won AFC spot by Mohun Bagan's credentials also in January the official announcement it was said that RPSG group brought 80% share of mbfc Avi1962 (talk) 18:22, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

What's the issue of doing merger of atkmb page as mbfc's subpage. IFA also said atk dissolved bt u guys don't wanna do this Avi1962 (talk) 18:23, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

avi: do as in my last post, and eventually add this style on both pages to show department table: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.E.K._(sports_club) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.172.187.10 (talk) 19:53, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

I also told that add atkmb as football subpage of Mohun Bagan bt nobody wants to hear Avi1962 (talk) 20:50, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Can someone please fix few things: on mb page, link atk mohun bagan in football infobox, copy league as on atkmb page (inaugural not won last year)... and on atkmb add same yerseys. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.1.8.54 (talk) 19:41, 26 July 2020 (UTC) af 700 here 👆

They don't do because they try to pretend atkmb has no relationship with mbac Avi1962 (talk) 09:28, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/973604795

user drat instead of banning few vandals, says discussion not done and makes few mistakes (unlinking, founding, jersey format...) and what needs to be discussed tell us — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.131.75.21 (talk) 11:19, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Mohun Bagan A.C. club logo.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:53, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Page renamed to ATK Mohun Bagan FC.

So, why is this page not being moved to ATK Mohun Bagan FC? --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 17:29, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

This is the official website of the new entity - clearly says ATK Mohun Bagan Club - website name, and the club name. Barcelona never became UNESCO Barcelona or Qatar Barcelona. So where is the confusion?

Two football entities merged to form a single entity and that is ATK Mohun Bagan. I agree that Mohun Bagan jersey has been retained. At the same time, ATK has kept their entire football squad, and added a couple of players from Mohun Bagan. The entire coaching staff, including the head coach of ATK, has been retained. The Logo is recreated. Have you ever seen Erimates in the Real Madrid logo? The new logo of the merged entity has ATK Mohun Bagan written on it. Mohun Bagan formed in 1989, but as of now, the football division ceases to exist. Same as ATK Football Club. Only ATK Mohun Bagan is active since 2020 and will participate in ISL. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Iamjplusm (talk • contribs) 07:13, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

What you guys must understand is that Mohun Bagan AC is the society or the club. 80% share of only the football team of the club has been taken by the RPGSG group. Rest all assets, all other sports dividions of the club remain with the society at full stake, including the physical assets like club premises. Separately how can the history of 131 years as the oldest club of the country moved to a page of only the football team? The football team details as ATK Mohun Bagan FC should be a subset of the main page of Mohun Bagan AC. Kindly do not move or rename the page. As a member of the club and part owner of the football team as a club member, I have highlighted this issue to the club management. Request you to keep status quo till we hear it from the society management of MBAC. Ztruc (talk) 14:57, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 3 September 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved

As arguments on both sides have been voiced adequately with no new arguments put forward in the last few days the discussion is being closed after a full listing period.

Due to lack of consensus and to discourage gaming the system, the page was not moved. Thanks to all the participants for participating in a civil and mostly constructive debate. (non-admin closure)

 M Kariyappa (talk) 06:05, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

---

Mohun Bagan A.C. → ATK Mohun Bagan FC – After looking at official sources such as the letter cited here, I think we are fine to move forward with ATK Mohun Bagan FC being a continuation of Mohun Bagan. So with that said, I think we now need to move and rename this page ATK Mohun Bagan FC. This page is clearly and obviously for the football team, which has now been renamed ATK Mohun Bagan FC. The Indian Super League, the league the club plays in, now refers to the team as ATK Mohun Bagan FC and independent articles like this, this, and this also refer to the team as ATK Mohun Bagan FC. Please also see other examples of "football departments" of athletic clubs such as FC Barcelona and S.L. Benfica. ArsenalFan700 (talk) 13:32, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose: This is the Wikipedia page of the Club Mohun Bagan A.C of which football team is a part. The club legally is registered as a society. This page has to continue as Mohun Bagan A.C with football as a subset. Any change to the details will be an insult to an institution of 131 years. Wikipedia is an source of factual information and it should remain so. The page should continue as Mohun Bagan AC Ztruc (talk) 14:44, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
  • Comment for closing admin: I have added the Oppose tag at the beginning of User:Ztruc's comment since, to me, it is clearly an oppose opinion and because I want this discussion to be more organized than the merge request above.
  • User:Ztruc, I disagree. This article is clearly about the football side only. The history section is all about the football team, the rivalry section is for the football team, kit manufacture is for the football side, the squad is for the football side, the stadium is about the football side, notable players is literally all footballers, Mohun Bagan Day section is about football, the recent seasons is all football, and honours is all about the football side. The page is for the football team and based on WP:FOOTYN, the football team would get its own article. You can see this with similar sporting organizations such as FC Barcelona where they have FC Barcelona Bàsquet for the basketball side and FC Barcelona (disambiguation) to link to all the teams. Something similar can be done for Mohun Bagan here. In this case, the club was announced as ATK Mohun Bagan FC and is officially known as ATK Mohun Bagan FC by the Indian Super League and other independent sources. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 15:19, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
• Weak oppose: I will go with the AEK sports club model (Avi1962 also mentioned that). Their football club has slightly different logo, with 'Athens' in it. Like ATKMB. This is an well-established article. Also, this is about the athletic club departments of MB. Its can be kept football historical article. If MB plays football again later or ATK gets out, the article can be continued. The whole club didnt move, just the football moved out. ❯❯❯   S A H A 15:32, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

In that case, why don't we move this article to ATK Mohun Bagan FC and create a new article for Mohun Bagan A.C. (sports club). This would be similar to how there is A.E.K. (sports club) and AEK Athens F.C. and since this article is literally already about the football team, like 99% of the content in this article is about the football side, why don't we just rename this one and then create a new article for the overall sports club? --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 16:08, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

since, MB already has A.C., I don't think sports clubs separately is required. Moving it might be wrong since ATKMB never player i-league/NFL and at the same time, its 3 times ISL winner (as per ISL website). So, its better we keep MBAC as it is, and ATMB as football. ❯❯❯   S A H A 17:09, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

I mean, now we are just going back to the merger discussion of "Is this a continuation of Mohun Bagan?" I think we should drop that for now and have this discussion with the decision of the merger in mind, which is that ATK Mohun Bagan FC is effectively a continuation of Mohun Bagan. With that in mind, I do think a sports club section is required then. We have two things, we have ATK Mohun Bagan FC, the football club in the Indian Super League. We also have Mohun Bagan, the athletic club which has a football club, cricket club etc. This article, Mohun Bagan A.C., is literally 99% about the football club only so I think this one should be moved. It has also been the WP:COMMONNAME for the team ever since the name was announced on 10 July with Mohun Bagan only being said when used in a sentence to discuss the merger or that Bagan is now in the ISL. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 20:10, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Agree: changing my decision. Ya, this is football article only. So, change this to ATKMB and make a separate MB (sports club). ❯❯❯   S A H A 06:47, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

i want to add 1 more thing. the previous discussion didn't have a clear consensus, as the situation is 50-50. What about a re-discussion? Or asking the ATKMB directly? Or waiting for their website? Whatever it is, I 100% agree with this "But ATK Mohun Bagan FC should then have its own page, it is notable as a football club having played at the top level of Indian football. Either way, we need a page called ATK Mohun Bagan FC." ❯❯❯   S A H A 08:45, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

The merger discussion result was majorly based on this IFA document also. It says MBAC changes to ATKMB. So, the article name should change. Issue solved. ❯❯❯   S A H A 10:05, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

You're more than welcome to reopen the discussion. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 14:03, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Nah. I don't want to unnecessary stress myself, face personal attacks and waste my time. I might start after ATKMB launches their website, depending upon the situation. if they mention isl winning, i will. ❯❯❯   S A H A 15:32, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Don't know, why some people are going with half-truth... Taking half from IFA's document that ATK's license has been cancelled, but not considering this, that MBAC is being renamed as ATKMB. It's purely WP:CHERRYPICKING and WP:NPOV. Also, just like ATK pulled out from IFA, MB pulled out from AIFF. ❯❯❯   S A H A 18:15, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

The grand majority of comments opposing are from Mohun Bagan fans. I wish others from Wikipedia:WikiProject Football would comment since they would have no clear bias whatsoever. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 18:37, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

maybe we should ask non-football fans also... posted in discord. ❯❯❯   S A H A 18:49, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

ArsenalFan700 I think we should come to a conclusion now. ❯❯❯   S A H A 20:30, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

• Canvassing has started again. -_- ❯❯❯   S A H A 06:33, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

User:ArnabSaha, I think we have come to a conclusion. If the user is a Mohun Bagan fan or a new account with only contributions to this discussion, then they are opposed. Those users who are not Bagan fans and who edit regularly other topics are in support. You can tell where the bias is and I hope the closing admin actually this into account rather than "more people "voted" for this" because this isn't a vote, it is about reasoning. People are putting way to much stock into a name that they feel like renaming this article removes the accomplishments of previous Mohun Bagan teams. That is discussing purely through emotion and being a fan and not contributing to wikipedia. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 18:52, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

ArsenalFan700, agree. I will suggest you add this "closing admin actually this into account rather than more people voted for this" as a note above. the page history of ATKMB needs to be merged too. also, I have reported User:NijerDomeISL in WP:UAA for the disruptive name. ❯❯❯   S A H A 19:39, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

The history of the club is under MBAC and the club is recognized under MBAC by Club of Pioneers and every other footballing body. The tweet by FIFA on 29th July 2020 was a clear example of this fact. The page should remain as MBAC as the entire history is built on that. Under the page name there should be a sub section on the football team by the name of ATK Mohun Bagan FC.

Let's continue with this as the page structure. This club has a historical significance and it will be undermining of the legacy if we rename the main page as ATK Mohun Bagan FC.

We have highlighted this to the office bearers of our club and club will officially reach out if it's required. Ztruc (talk) 17:10, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Oppose: The football entity represents Mohun Bagan and not a permanent one. Already a merger discussion done, where the above thing has been well discussed. As agreed before, the history to be re-written well, which presently I am working on it and will be updated accordingly. Drat8sub (talk) 19:38, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Are you serious? The discussion above was anything but well done, it was cluster fuck if we are to be honest. Look, we have two things here. We have ATK Mohun Bagan FC, the football club that will play in the ISL and Mohun Bagan A.C. which is the athletic club which runs the other sporting departments. Both should have pages. All other examples of this around the world have them as separate pages, this should not be an exception. When someone clicks ATK Mohun Bagan FC in the Indian Super League page, they shouldn't be lead to an article titled "Mohun Bagan A.C." or a part in the history section. That makes no sense. It is simple, the football entity has been renamed as ATK Mohun Bagan FC. This page should be renamed then since it is about the football club. I think that should make sense to everyone and the only ones who would oppose to this would be Mohun Bagan fans who are emotionally opposed to having "ATK" in the name. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 20:01, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

CommonName applies. Then for 100 years the club play as Athletic Club, it did not make any entity for football. So one cannot write an article having a history which it does not have. And yes it is very ok to lead anyone who clicks the ATK MB to Mohun Bagan as this is the very club that the football team is of. If one user make confusing comment in that merger discussion, that does not make it irrelevant. I understand your concern but, it will be whole lot of mess. Give me some time, trust on me little, if the article does not work out well, we will have a discussion if there is a need of spliting it(that too for last 22 years since 1998). But in no way this article can be renamed as ATK MB when it has a history of 100 years played as Athletic club. Drat8sub (talk) 20:18, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

I've already mentioned COMMONNAME above. Literally is now the common name for the football side ever since it was announced on 10 July. Every article, whether independent or official, now calls the team ATK Mohun Bagan FC. This literally should be a no brainer. History doesn't matter here, history will actually tell us that we should have probably changed the name here to McDowell's Mohun Bagan when that was the case years back as that was the common name then. Either way, it shouldn't matter. The club is now ATK Mohun Bagan FC. If Arsenal is bought and changed to something London Gunners, the page would be changed to London Gunners. Same applies here. And I am not going to give the time, for what? So this article can be turned into a sports article with balanced information about all departments of Mohun Bagan? If so, that is fine. But ATK Mohun Bagan FC should then have its own page, it is notable as a football club having played at the top level of Indian football. Either way, we need a page called ATK Mohun Bagan FC. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 20:34, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

First, renaming and moving option is no way appropriate for the article when already a no merger consensus was achieved, which means a page with ATK MB cannot be parallel to MB's article. Secondly, its the club's orginal article which should be updated with all achievements and history. "It does not have much of other sports information", is what I was saying that I am working on rewriting the article. It should not be made into ATK MB in any way. Rather the best option for your concern is WP:CFORK or WP:SPLIT from this article. And for Commonname, WP:CONCISE comes into picture and if only 2020 considered, it's in july that the name announced and not at all Commonname. 2020 itself has Mohun Bagan as CommonName. Till june it has been Mohun Bagan. Another issue is it's not required to change if the name is not permanent change, McDowell was not permanent and so is this one. Thus its better to work on conciseness. For me merger is not an option. Thank you. Drat8sub (talk) 10:14, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

WP:CYRSTAL. We don't know whether this is permanent or not. This isn't a simple sponsorship name change but literally RSPG Group buying in and renaming the club. For WP:CONCISE, in that case, we would be renaming this page as simply Mohun Bagan. Real Madrid CF would just be Real Madrid etc. We don't do this however due to there being many exceptions and a lack of consistency. Also a merger was approved, which is why we are having this discussion in the first place. If you are rewriting it to include additional sporting information, that is fine but a) in that case we will need a separate article for the football club since the football club is notable in its own right from both WP:FOOTYN and WP:GNG and b) the introduction is still about the football club, the history section is still all football, rivalries, colours, kit manufacturers, stadiums, supporters, notable players, players, coaching staff, recent seasons, and honours are all about football. In the end, we might have enough to go on that the athletic club might not pass WP:GNG (don't believe this) while the football club definitely does. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 14:03, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Oppose: Mohun Bagan & Atk mohun Bagan are two different identities. Mohun Bagan is an athletic club which have many departments other than football, formed in 1889, while ATK-Mohun Bagan is a new club which came into existence from 1 June,2020 as a result of merger betwwen ATK football club(2014) and the football department of Mohun Bagan. Coderdaddy1369 (talk) 07:21, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

This has already been discussed above in the merger section. Consensus in the end though was that ATK Mohun Bagan FC is a continuation of the football team Mohun Bagan. This article is 99% about the football club, with literally every section being dedicated to the football side. So, with that in mind, the name of this page should then be changed to ATK Mohun Bagan FC and a new page should be created which is dedicated to the sports club Mohun Bagan and which discusses all the departments of the club. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 07:36, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Suggestion We can change its name but creating a separate page for Mohun Bagan would simply undermine the outcome of the merger discussion. To keep things up to date we can have its name changed as the club has also expressed its desire to change its registered name at the IFA as cited in the merger discussion. The changes, chronologically, of the name of the football club can be kept at the crests and colours section. However an extra page should never be created. The history of Mohun Bagan is extensively about its (men's senior) football team so there's not much to improve Wikipedia with. To add, the further reading section already mentions the articles for youth and cricket team so an extra page is totally unnecessary. Aarul Chandekar (talk) 08:22, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose:- After seeing some of the above comments by some users, I agree with Drat8sub that moving the page is likely to create whole lot of mess again. So there is no harm if ATK Mohun Bagan FC links redirect to Mohun Bagan AC, after all the team is being called as Mohun Bagan by their fans, as always normally. I am thus, changing my mind and opposing the page movement proposal. Aarul Chandekar (talk) 08:51, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Of course you are. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 05:05, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

This page is basically 99% football and I doubt anyone can make it any less than 95%. I agree, separate page ideally doesn't need to happen and I would be more than okay with a new Mohun Bagan AC (disambiguation) being created which would be like FC Barcelona (disambiguation) and list the different teams. I get what you mean by the confusion but anyone who types in Mohun Bagan can be redirected to ATK Mohun Bagan FC, that isn't an issue. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 14:03, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

• Support per nom. GiantSnowman 11:43, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose: Firstly, bringing in European examples is not appropriate here as in Europe sponsors can't change the name of the club, while that is fairly common in India. Secondly Mohun Bagan AC was founded as a football club originally and the foundation year remains the same for the current football team. Mohun Bagan currently has only one other active sports department other than football and if anyone is too eager they can create a Mohun Bagan cricket page. This club has played earlier under various sponsor names and we never had this debate about renaming. Again, bringing examples from Europe won't win this argument as sponsors or takeovers can't rename the clubs in Europe. Surprisingly in our previous discussion regarding the new page, it was repeatedly emphasized that AFC Examples from any other leagues won't be accepted as the case in India is unique. So i am arguing here on that same point that FC Barcelona example won't suffice here. I would once again say that since we already have a consensus regarding the fact it is the continuation of the football entity of Mohun Bagan, and as the club was founded as a football club and with the name Mohun Bagan A.C., any change in name of the page will only create confusion. And obviously the history is full of football because that was what the original club was, a football club. Renaming this page will dilute the history, footballing achievements and foundation year of the club. Debarghya89 (talk) 16:35, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Also it is a concern that renaming the page will simply erase the entire achievements and history of the football club prior to joining ISL. Also this will set a bad precedent and will lead to renaming of many other clubs like East Bengal also. These two clubs are unique in their footballing history in India and it's a shame to rename this just because of ISL. We never had this renaming drama before. Debarghya89 (talk) 16:59, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Where is it stated by UEFA that a sponsor/company can't change the name of the club? FC Red Bull Salzburg does exist and that was from changing the name of the club after being bought by Red Bull. Also, this isn't a sponsorship, it's literally ownership. RPSG Group isn't buying and renaming the football club "RPSG Mohun Bagan", they're renaming the club "ATK Mohun Bagan". Also you're correct, we never did have this debate before but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have. We probably should have changed the name of the article to McDowell's Mohun Bagan just like how East Bengal was at one point Kingfisher East Bengal. So that is more due to editors not realizing at the time rather than a rule, there isn't one. For AFC examples, Guangzhou Evergrande Taobao F.C. was renamed after having been partly bought by the Alibaba Group. Also, we do have a Mohun Bagan cricket page here.

I also don't understand your other points. "since we already have a consensus regarding the fact it is the continuation of the football entity of Mohun Bagan, and as the club was founded as a football club and with the name Mohun Bagan A.C., any change in name of the page will only create confusion"... what does this mean? Yes, we had a consensus that this is a contination of Mohun Bagan the football club but where was the name agreed upon? The way you worded it btw is as if Mohun Bagan was founded as "Mohun Bagan AC" when it wasn't. Any change wouldn't create confusion as we could just simply create a shortcut "Mohun Bagan" which would redirect to this page as ATK Mohun Bagan FC. Just like how it is now.

Regarding the rest of your comment, I'm sorry, but now you're just being emotional. No history is diluted because of a name change and if you feel strongly about it, that isn't the fault of wikipedia. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia at the end of the day. If you don't like this, find a way to make that known to the club and have them change back because going forward, the football club is ATK Mohun Bagan FC. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 18:37, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

The page in the current structure and name has the best structure. All the football related details going forward till the football entity is named as ATK Mohun Bagan FC can be posted under the section ATK Mohun Bagan FC. While the parent header remains as Mohun Bagan AC as this page is an archive also of the history created under the name of Mohun Bagan AC

Aside there is a section on Mohun Bagan Day where in the recipient details are updated every year. This honour is given by MBAC the parent society. Similarly from what I understand from club management, details of other sports also will be updated here. This will include history of cricket, hockey, athletics and tennis and the future achievements/updates on these sports which MBAC will participate in. Ztruc (talk) 03:54, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

Nobody with Mohun Bagan can actually edit this page due to WP:CONFLICT. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 05:05, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

The page is of Mohun Bagan AC which is a registered society under Indian laws with an elected body managing it. If someone wants to enrich the page with all the accolades and updates from all other sports how can it be done? Ztruc (talk) 08:50, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

Added : Ok read through it. A person who is a paid employee cannot edit on COI. But anyone else can giving the source links. Ztruc (talk) 08:54, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

This page is for the football club. If not, then a new page for the football club will be created. It is that simple. ATK Mohun Bagan FC is the name of the football club. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 15:36, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

It's the name under which the team will play from this season,you cannot have a header with this name with 131 years of history of having played as Mohun Bagan A.C. The page football section should be kept as it is currently named under ATK Mohun Bagan FC as going forward till this name stays show it will be updated under it. Any query on ATK Mohun Bagan FC should be redirected to the football section of the page.

If we have to start creating similar new pages then we will have to do it whenever there is an ownership pattern change like which happened for EB now. For them also a new company is getting formed which will run the sports activities now. It will complicate things in my opinion. Ztruc (talk) 16:09, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

• Support per nom. This article is for the football team, a new page can be made for the athletic club as a whole if it meets WP:GNG. ColeTrain4EVER (talk) 16:50, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

• Agree Support: This is football article only. So, change this to ATKMB and make a separate MB (sports club). The teams merged to form a new entity as per the official statement put forward. -SabyaC (talk) 07:39, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

References

• Oppose because you can't name a book according to the name of a sleek chapter of the book. AMBFC is only a part of the long history of the club and the corporate controlled names are temporary while the club that AMBFC represents, i.e. MBAC, is permanent. To avoid any misconception also, we should not be renaming the page. Figuto (talk) 02:24, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Mohun Bagan gone East Bengal come on useless to talk NijerDomeISL (talk) 02:35, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Figuto, at last somebody has used AMBFC as the short form for ATK Mohun Bagan Football Club. The correct acronym for the name is not ATKMB (in which T and K have no meaning) rather it is AMBFC. Whatsoever, I have a couple of questions for the users who are in favour of renaming the page.

Questions start

• Let's say I create a new wikipedia page named 'McDowell's Mohun Bagan'. Would you be okay if the page contains the 1947 IFA Shield win of Mohun Bagan?
• Let's say the renaming of the current page is done. We must also respect the decision reached after the Merger discussion which implied continuity of Mohun Bagan. So in that case, all the stuffs that are available in the Mohun Bagan A.C. page must be transferred to the renamed page. Shall I be wrong in saying that many will be annoyed with a page named as AMBFC containing 1911 IFA Shield win, 1939 CFL win, 1997 NFL win or 2015 IL win under its Honours section? I believe I am not wrong.

Questions end

An Important Message To All

Comments Those who are trying to get the renaming done are actually trying to get back to the pre-Merger decision situation. If the page is renamed the very same users will start arguing that AMBFC page cannot be attributed the previous achievements of the club when its name was MBAC (1890-1998) or MMBFC (1998-2016) or MBFC(I) (2016-2020). Then they will argue for a separate page containing all previous versions of Mohun Bagan to establish as if AMBFC represents either a new club or its at least something different than football division of Mohun Bagan. Obviously the renaming agenda is a starting point for them (mainly some East Bengal fans) to reach a position to imply discontinuity of the club, commonly called Mohun Bagan. Please don't misinterprete, I am not tagging everyone supporting or wanting the page move as East Bengal fan. I am just putting up the real perspective of the situation. Those users are trying to game the system which is against wikipedia custom, described at WP:GAMING, to establish their viewpoint which is not at all neutral, which is against wikipedia custom, described at WP:NPOV. Therefore, neutral users and Admins should consider the far reaching consequences of getting the renaming done, before supporting it. For the sake of keeping wikipedia free from getting influenced by social media fan fights and to keep wikipedia away from being used to abuse any particular community of football lovers, the renaming of this page should not be done. Aarul Chandekar (talk) 03:00, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

My suggestion is to keep the Mohun Bagan A.C page as it is because it is a independent body and not a merged entity and rather we should change the ATK page and make it ATKMB as ATK now has no existance Darkarmy241998 (talk) 03:33, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Then where will the history of the now dissolved club ATKFc be kept? Aarul Chandekar (talk) 04:15, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

In the ATK MB page itself where sub heading will be given as ATK FC Darkarmy241998 (talk) 06:20, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Support per nominator's rational --IndianFootball1996 (talk) 18:58, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

• Support I agree with the above nominator. team name chnaged --FootyMessi9147 (talk) 06:10, 9 September 2020 (UTC) — FootyMessi9147 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Agree Support: This page should be renamed as ATK Mohun Bagan FC as its a newly formed entity. -Ashnut Dutta (talk) 13:07, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

ATK Mohun Bagan is a new entity formed in 2020, through the merger of ATK & Mohun Bagan. Previously also clubs like PSG were formed as a result of a merger, all of them have separate wiki pages. -Ashnut Dutta (talk) 13:18, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

References

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

ATK (football club)

This page will likely be affected by the discussion above. If nothing else, the content may need to change to be in the past tense.

As there is likely to be at least a little disagreement over what changes are appropriate, I recommend that changes related to that club's dissolution or merger or whatever actually happened be discussed first.

Please note that this page has been under pending changes protection since 2017 which means that if a new editor or non-logged in editor edits it, ALL subsequent edits are put on hold pending review. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 20:42, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, that club has folded, that is for sure. So everything in that article should be in past tense. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 02:52, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

Again which club has folded? MBAC still runs. MBFC was never a club it was a company. With IFA which is the recognised governing body under AIFF there is a name change. So how can you claim club has folded? The football team under MBAC has played under various companies since the Mcdowell days. Now also it's playing under a company called ATK Mohun Bagan FC. This same arguments hold true for East Bengal too. Ztruc (talk) 04:30, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

Take a chill pill and actually read the previous comment. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 06:34, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

Ztruc, footballing dept. of both club has stopped working individually. now they work together as a merged entity. McDowell is the title sponsor. DLF IPL, VIVO IPL or DREAM11 IPL, but its IPL. ❯❯❯   S A H A 06:27, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

ArsenalFan700 - Missed the thread header. Apologies :) Ztruc (talk) 07:26, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

Ztruc, at the same time, atkmb is playing ISL under the license of atk... ❯❯❯   S A H A 10:17, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

ISL has no license, there are bids which certain companies picked. Basis the acceptance of the bids they formed a team which plays in ISL. It started as a pvt tournament so there is no concept of licensing.

For licensing as per AFC licensing guidelines a club had to be registered either to the state federation (example IFA) or national federation which is AIFF. Ztruc (talk) 16:25, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

Ztruc, aiff has its club licensing. it is followed for national level leagues ❯❯❯   S A H A 17:41, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

this kid af700 has to be banned finally for daring to restart mess here, people and club said how it will be! who the hell cares if ⚽️ entity is under multisports page, its noted. get a life in states! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.11.176 (talk) 16:50, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes Saha, AIFF has.. not ISL. ISL is run by FSDL. AIFF club licensing though is a separate process uses the same registration logic is its state affiliation which is IFA. You won't have a parent child relationship where in a constituent club is registered differently. Ztruc (talk) 02:51, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

@zt. fsdl listens all aiff says anyway 😂 so nothing to do with finished story of eventually making new page for mb's ⚽️ team...whole story is atk owners agreed to be "eaten" 💰💰💰 by mb and has only 3 letters left. (and drat said to be working on multi infobox these days) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.11.176 (talk) 03:01, 9 September 2020 (UTC)