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This is an archive of past discussions with User:Jimbo Wales. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
I just wanted to say your speech was really good at Cato tonight. You cited the gender bias (based on the fact that more editors happen to be male than female) which is totally real (and I think understood by the wikipedia community), but I fear a lot more political bias (based on the fact that more editors happen to be liberals than conservatives). Which tends to infect questions of proper weight more often than I would like. That's all I wanted to say. Thank you for the great speech! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Obsidi (talk • contribs) 00:34, 2 November 2016
Looks like a link is [1] - as far as I can tell this was a live stream, but it links to Twitter postings including a statement the video "will be available". Wnt (talk) 09:57, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
The first link works too. Thanks for posting it. Mr. Jimbo, I take it you're none too fond of the fr:CNIL and their pesky, but useful, clamor for the fr:droit à l'oubli? By the way, I don't think this is really related to suppressing unfavorable newspaper articles as you suggested, but rather more towards protecting personal info from the various harvesting services, no? SashiRolls (talk) 19:35, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
@SashiRolls: There is an English-language Right to be forgotten article also. You can make your own mind about it. I'll admit it in some ways confirms your idea that much of the information being erased is crap on Facebook and such that is not notable news, and that the effect on news media is most discussed because of freedom of speech concerns. But with censorship, we're talking about an injustice that causes an endless series of problems, and people use the glaring instances as a stand-in for the ones that are not as obvious to see. After all, Facebook isn't a newspaper, yet there are quite few reporters and publications (including the ones that ought to be above such things) whoring after it, and if their comments there get suppressed because they mentioned a name, then they are being pressured. Similarly, imagine you want to rightfully complain about some serious injustice that was done to you and you find out that nobody is being allowed to find it on a search, because the person doing it put out a form!
With any censorship issue there is also the problem that it doesn't really work, not for what it claims to do. You can go demand your "right to be forgotten" with a few public search engines you know about, but what is being said behind your back? I don't think it is anywhere near satisfactory to suppress the public face of something if employers are still going to discriminate against people for their beliefs or associations - the issue should be tackled head on at the source, with direct prohibitions against discrimination, rather than by going out and harassing random middlemen on the web (especially if all anyone has to do to evade it is visit a different server from the same company!). I don't think most employers really *want* to not hire people because they see footage of them getting drunk or even stoned on Facebook a year ago. They are simply afraid of being attacked by somebody else for not discriminating in these cases. Add just a little bit of countervailing terror, and they'd probably jump for joy at the excuse to just hire whoever has the skills without playing Divine Judge Of Mankind in the bargain. (Some of them - sure, some are assholes who would go to the wall to defend their right to micromanage employees' private time, but we can accommodate that wish also) Wnt (talk) 00:18, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
Well, there's also the European Trade Secrets law, which protects the privacy of corporations, who are allegedly people too (even 'personnes morales' if you believe French law ^^). I don't see why we should get upset about those who argue for the right (of individuals) to be forgotten, when European law after LuxLeaks and the Panama Papers seems to be that corporations (and probably foundations) have the right not to have their private info "gotten" in the first place. Of course, we should AGF, these moral persons would never lose 5 billion dollars on an uncovered trading position, or knowingly sell rebundled derivatives of risky mortgages, or have revenues as close as possible to 0 outside of tax havens, or eat babies, or... SashiRolls (talk) 01:06, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
Dear Mr. Wales, I really have a hard time to see by which degree the coverage in Wikipedia is pro Trump and against Clinton. I am really not in favour of Mrs. Clinton, she would be a very bad president, but Mr. Trump will to an exponential degree be so much worse, a literally nuclear threat to America and the whole world. (I'm really wondering why the American people are not using the four alternatives they have, but that's another topic.) The support of the ridiculous exaggerations, lies and malicious threats by the Trump campaign against Mrs. Clinton, women and minorities takes so much more room here in Wikipedia than the well-founded and sourced documentations of all the legal and illegal machinations of Mr. Trump. There are a really high number of new & very experienced users working on keeping and enforcing that disparity. Do you see too, how much the neutrality of Wikipedia is already damaged? And what do you think & plan what can be done? --SI06:12, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
Wikipedia is politically neutral (as a charity and by mission anyway), but the best way of undermining Trump is by being accurate about him. Anybody who reads our article on Trump and would still vote for him, is not going to change their mind whatever we do. Having read the article the best you can hope for is that his fingers would not quite be long enough to reach the nuclear button when he loses his temper. Guy (Help!) 09:21, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
The OP might be blinded by his own prejudice. I for one have witnessed the opposite trend unfold: overwhelming emphasis on bashing Trump and protecting Clinton. Editors trying to bring back some kind of dispassionate sanity to the election pages are quickly accused of bias and cabal. Nerves of steel are a must! However, if Trump supporters see Clinton bias and Clinton lovers see Trump bias, Wikipedia as a whole is probably doing a good job… — JFGtalk09:48, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
Concur with that, in particular the last sentence. Listening to all the accusations of Wikipedia bias, I was confused as to the direction of the bias. At that point I stopped listening. I long ago stopped claiming that "I don't have an (U.S. regional) accent" because my speech sounds accent-neutral to me. ―Mandruss☎10:12, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
More male voters have polled for Clinton: Rejecting a male-bias voter hypothesis, recent polls have shown more U.S. men prefer the experienced woman for President, Hillary Clinton over male Trump, but the polled voter numbers are as a total nationwide, not by count of red/blue states. -Wikid77 (talk) 16:16, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
Those maps are pretty bogus - it's one guy at fivethirtyeight.com finding an average gap between Clinton and Trump for the country, then applying that gap onto the aggregate male+female vote for each state. I mean, it might be true, but it's also possible that Clinton has a widely variable margin with women, which would make the maps look completely different. Wnt (talk) 17:34, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
Knowing as I do hundreds of Wikipedians, I find it highly unlikely that Wikipedia has any significant bias towards Donald Trump. If you, SI can bring forward any very specific examples, it might be more helpful than throwing out a claim that I think most of us would find highly implausible. Someone claimed to me the other day that our articles on Hillary Clinton read like campaign material for her, which I also find highly implausible.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:49, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
Dear Mr. Wales, thank you for taking the time. I'm really not good in talk-page socializing, sorry. I think those templates are not equally balanced on supporting/criticism/advertising, I tried to fix a bit but was reverted and instead replaced by all the company ads. Trying to list other issues in brief:
sexual misconduct allegations keep being constantly removed from the DT article / article lede, only under fierce EW and conflicts it is in there now
HC mail scandal article is unproportional long compared to "male" legal affairs
although numerous editors state that the email/document deletion issues need be added to the DT legal affairs article, nobody is doing it
The court rulings for DT refusing to employ African American still missing/removed
the unpaid bills issues are also still missing in the DT coverage
and where is the article Donald Trump's proven lies? ;) OK, just joking on that one, but that has overwhelming amount of sources, too.
(and for the surely expected return that I should do all those editing: I am already editing a lot, keep being disturbed instead being helped; and I have a life, too;) --SI12:36, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
Both deletion discussions were closed under criterion G5, which I'm not a great fan of personally, but since the deletion was without prejudice, there wouldn't seem to be a problem with creating a well-sourced article on that issue (I did not review the articles, so cannot right now comment on whether they were worth saving rather than recreating; certainly only one would be needed in any case). Somebody would have to do the writing, though - there is no magic spell available. If it looks like it'll be a spirited collaboration, I may join in. Samsara18:48, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
That's what I keep saying, nobody only very few are doing the writing while lots of editors spend huge amounts of time and baseless and aggressive talk page talking to keep reliably sourced content out of WP and especially out of the Trump articles (just one example here +another1,2,..3,...); while to Clinton's articles every tiny little "info" is added, even some of the totally unfounded, reckless accusations and lies by Mr. Trump. Mr. Wales, while I surely believe that most people talking to you are more on Clinton's side, do you have all those articles on your watchlist and keep track of what's permanently going on there? I am completely exhausted and am strictly reducing my contributions now to shelter myself from stress and aggressions. --SI06:45, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
For reference, here are the subheadings for the last two templates, which you might use for pointing out any imbalance that you think needs fixing.
Template:Trump – Family, Media / Entertainment, Notable properties, Current enterprises, Former enterprises, Donald Trump presidential politics
Template:Hillary Rodham Clinton – Secretary of State, U.S. Senator, First Lady, Arkansas, Philanthropic, Speeches and policies, Writings, Electoral history, Legacy, Family
I detect an imbalance, also, where Trump's family is an excessive focus, with three wives and in-laws, who are a distraction. Meanwhile, opposite Trump's "Notable properties" why not add Clinton's "Notable treaties" (Iran nuclear) as Sec. of State and "Notable legislation" as New York Senator, where she co-authored perhaps 400[!] pieces of legislation, then obviously all her books could be a collapsible section like listing skyscrapers in a navbox section. That is just a cursory comparison of those navboxes, so far, but can be fixed later. -Wikid77 (talk) 03:13, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
The question of balance is an election campaign consideration. After the election is over today, I expect that considerations of balance will dissipate and what is appropriate for each article in its own right will be the consideration.
The coverage of the numerous, expanding issues has been overwhelming for the 2016 U.S. Presidential election. For example Donald Trump's tax returns, with minimal payment of federal income tax have been in recent news, with need for longer-term reports. Meanwhile, the Hillary Clinton email controversy, though cleared by the FBI and U.S. Justice Department in July 2016, has not emphasized when Clinton reported how actual classified documents, or diplomatic cables, were read as hardcopy printouts in her office at the U.S. State Department ("hard copy" source: NYT [4], HillaryClinton.com [5]). Also, the emails did not contain classified information marked as such, or were classified by one department but not by another at the time, as noted in spoken comments (July 2016 "classified by one department but not by another"?), and such details are a total game-changer to realize some groups considered the documents as unclassified, but Wikipedia has trouble sourcing to spoken statements, as another example of why Wikipedia might seem biased toward Trump, but the full details are difficult to cover and source in rapid time. -Wikid77 (talk) 13:30, +sources 13:44, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
Incidentally, some of this may rely on the exact definition of classified. For example, we handle Official and Official-Sensitive documents in significantly different ways. Ironically this may be a case where Hillary did not have textual relations with that document. Guy (Help!) 13:50, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
I think Wikipedia should be promoting and encouraging people to vote for Donald Rump; it's quite obvious that he is the best man running. All this sending of emails shows a lack of communication skills, it's no better than people who send texts all the time, what is wrong with just picking up the telephone? Mrs Clinton also has dyed hair, just like a beard, that's a sure sign of untrustworthiness. The Lady Catherine de Burgh (talk) 17:19, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
Well, it would seem a lot easier to just give Hillary Clinton a loudspeaker to inform everyone by yelling across the region; I mean its not like anything was really classified enough to not yell; in fact one email was redacted as "classified" to hide only the sender's username (as the only "classified" aspect of the email!), so that guy could just shout the contents of the message, over loudspeaker, and no one need know his classified username. Then for archived FOIA requests, just shout the recordings of bugged rooms to whomever files a request for related "email". That would also appeal to Donald Grump who likes to shout, "You're fired" or "I'm gonna sue the sh*t out of those women after the election" or "Don't fly that people-drone over the $trillion-dollar WALL, as it will make the wall look like someone stupid built it". Much less need to search 30,000 emails to witch-hunt classified text. -Wikid77 (talk) 17:09, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
As an external (non-US) and disinterested observer, having viewed our discussions on this election, I conceive that a significant part of our issues with documenting it are related to a desire to cover it in real time - in essence, to play the role of a news aggregator - something which we are explicitly WP:NOT. I suggest that there would not be "too many issues to handle fast" if we were to attempt to handle them with a great deal less haste - and would encourage an ArbCom or community response to enforce such. - Ryk72'c.s.n.s.'23:17, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
The WP editors now must write and expand articles very quickly because, after a short while, then there will be even more topics to write about, long before the previous topics have been explained in an encyclopedic (all-encompassing) manner from all wp:RS sources already published. -Wikid77 (talk) 17:21, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
Respectfully, this appears to largely miss the point of my original comment above. We would "handle" each topic or event with less effort, less re-work, much less angst (and correspondingy fewer ANI/AE reports) and a better result in mainspace, if we were to not to "cover" it live, but to wait until the end of the news cycle before attempting to document it; at least long enough for any retractions & corrections to be published. - Ryk72'c.s.n.s.'23:45, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
This is a great comment User:Ryk72. Nearly all of the articles dealing with the current election topics are over-reliant on and sometimes consist entirely of breaking news stories, contrary to our policies. Mr Ernie (talk) 12:12, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
Well, many of the topics have been expanded in editorial articles, such as Hillary Clinton read classified messages (or diplomatic cables) as "hard copy while in the office" documented in March 2015 (see: NYT), but there are just so many various issues to cover. -Wikid77 (talk) 17:21, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
I concur with the comment on over-reliance on breaking news stories by Mr Ernie, above. I would, however, add that the only thing worse than an article based solely on breaking news stories is one based on breaking news stories and breaking opinion/editorial columns; especially where the latter's opinions are couched as fact. - Ryk72'c.s.n.s.'23:45, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
WP relies on editorial opinions not our opinions: When journalists study recent evets and write editorial articles, then that becomes the limited basis for some WP pages, even when our editors wish they could fill our articles with their own conclusions or opinions instead, per restrictions of wp:OR. Plus the unfortunate reality is that most indepth reporting about events typically occurs soon after the breaking news, such as an investigation written by Michael Isikoff shortly after the 2000 Florida recount where he noted the election officials that weekend intended to count, as usual in recounts, the overvotes punched for Al Gore with write-in "Al Gore" (per policy "where the intent of the voter was clear") which would have totalled to a Gore win in Florida, and hence "President Al Gore" if the U.S. Supreme Court had not perverted the recount with a halt claiming how the recount might apply unfair, unequal counting methods across the state and so better to disregard all valid overvotes rather than risk hypothetical disenfranchizing of some people's voting rights, when instead the Florida Supreme Court had already instructed a state-wide recount treating all voters to the same recount standards on that Friday weekend. Even before the judicial ink was dry on the halted election, an editorial had already explained how the Court had slanted the election unfairly, as the inverse consequence of claiming some votes might not be recounted fairly, because the experienced election officials already knew/planned how to conduct a fair, state-wide recount within 3 days, because their jobs as election officials depend on following fair, systematic procedures for all voters. As for WP article opinions, some editors have fought the sourced conclusions by deleting them from pages and leaving a "thought vacuum" where an opposite opinion seems more likely when the journalist conclusions have been deleted from the page. -Wikid77 (talk) 19:13, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
I do not believe that anyone has made a suggestion that we should base articles on Wikipedian's opinions. The suggestion, however, is made that we would benefit from waiting until the news cycle completes before creating new articles or significantly expanding existing articles with information on political or politicized events - at least until we have more than breaking news reports. If, as you suggest, most indepth reporting about events typically occurs soon after the breaking news (emphasis added), this would seem to reinforce the benefits of waiting. While I am sure that the Gore example is strongly resonant within the US, it is not necessary so when viewed from the other side of one of the world's great oceans. - Ryk72'c.s.n.s.'03:50, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
I think that @Ryk72:'s disparagement of being a "news aggregator" is wrong. Wikipedia is all about taking sources and putting them together into comprehensive coverage. If you read "WP:NOTNEWS", what it actually says is that we treat breaking news the same as any other reference. Google highlights Wikipedia coverage of breaking news for one very good reason - we do it far better than most news sources. And since the aggregated news would - even if we had to take it from off-site - be necessary for us to assemble any future article, that means that it is a very valuable step in writing the 'final' article. (Though we know full well that even decades after the fact, what is believed about historical events still can change radically - and as with the bombing of Dresden in World War II, even decades after the fact what people think happened is still heavily tainted by extrinsic factors) True, there are times when, for compiling a subjectively defined list, we need to rely on third parties (the best films of the 20th century, or the most shocking Senate upsets next Tuesday). But for the usual tasks, tracking what happened and when at the Nice attack for example, Wikipedia does a really good job in real time. Wnt (talk) 23:30, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
@Wnt: (I seem to be having a terrible time being understood of late, and I do apologise for that.) To clarify, it is not my intent to disparage "news aggregators" in general; nor to suggest that we should do other than "aggregate" sources (if by that term we mean taking sources and putting them together into comprehensive coverage); nor to suggest that breaking news reports should not be used to form part of such an aggregation. It is my intent to suggest that we do ourselves a disservice by attempting to aggregate only breaking news reports, particularly during the period in which the news is breaking, and particularly for information on political or politicized events - a disservice in terms of both increased effort and reduced quality, but also (perhaps more importantly?) in terms of increased angst. I am not necessarily convinced that we do do it far better than most news sources, particularly for political & politicized topics; but if this is indeed so, perhaps it is better viewed as an indictment on the current state of journalism than a strong & ringing endorsement of our own efforts. It is my intent to suggest that the urgency expressed above is misplaced; that we might be better served by being the tortoise, not the hare. (As an aside, I find descriptions of our efforts using the terms "cover", "coverage" or "report" to be strongly discordant.) - Ryk72'c.s.n.s.'03:50, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
It's true that in theory we could do a great job, dispassionately, later in time with access to all the recorded news reports. But in practice... think about how much easier it is to do a Google News search for the past week or the past month than to search news from five years ago. How much simpler it is (as detestable as the need may be) to look at a reporter's or public agency's Twitter postings for the past two days than to look at them for items from a year back. If we had infinite volunteers and subscriptions we could sleuth this stuff out years later, though that might still encourage overreliance on a few "newspapers of record" that keep archives of their material, at least for those who pay. But it's much easier to do it at the time, and if that also means that the article exists on Wikipedia at a time that much of its audience is looking to read it, so much the better. Wnt (talk) 11:44, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
Moreover, it is difficult to find details long after an event, such as long after a criminal investigation, try to source whether the fingerprints had a "wipe-down" smear or for a robbery, source the bank $balances of the suspects versus amount stolen, or even whether it rained/snowed at the crime scene during the time. The breaking news is often crucial to documenting the key details which readers need to understand a broader view. -Wikid77 (talk) 03:13, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
Re "It is my intent to suggest that we do ourselves a disservice by attempting to aggregate only breaking news reports..." – I tried to be careful in reading your comment so I hope I understood it correctly. It looks like your point is that shortly after an event occurs there is only breaking news, which may not be as credible as longer term established information. So your suggestion is that we should wait until this situation is over and the information has become stable before including information from the event into an article. I would agree if Wikipedia was only an encyclopedia for long term established information.
I don't think Wikipedia is limited in that regard but rather tries to be an encyclopedia for all information, new and old. As an encyclopedia for new information from breaking news, even before this discussion I thought that this was one of the best aspects of Wikipedia, where one can get information about recent events that is more comprehensive and usually more credible than looking at one or a few individual news articles. --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:33, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
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By a slim margin, Hillary Clinton won the vote for U.S. President, but only in the initial popular vote, while Donald Trump won the electoral college total for President with fewer votes than Mitt Romney had in 2012 ("because the system is rigged, folks"). The difference, beyond the Brexit vote, was many young people were too smart for lies told about Hillary Clinton, so they cleverly voted for "other" in protest not to be taken as fools (again). Preliminary numbers showed "others" received perhaps 2x the 2012 votes in some areas, where Clinton tallied 15% below Obama 2012 votes in those same areas. Plus the Florida Cuban-American votes seem to have gone to Trump, as a protest vote of open relations with Cuba. Anyway, the election was won by a slim minority vote, instead of a runoff where a candidate must total 50%+1, as the feared effects of spoiler candidates (who get many votes, ~8% and detract from major candidates).
Are you suggesting young people in the UK are less intelligent than those in the US? This is NOT a rhetorical question. DrChrissy(talk)17:06, 9 November 2016 (UTC)
I think young people have about the same mindset, and would rethink their votes if they had a runoff election and knew more about dirty-trick politics, as with "Tricky Dicky" (President Nixon) and the hateful protests he faced when dragging out the Vietnam War another 7 years (1969-1975), not to mention cancelling the Apollo mission moonlandings (like he killed the Future), but people forced him to resign. -Wikid77 (talk) 13:32, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
It looks like Gary Johnson took over 3% of the vote,[6] while Jill Stein received around 1%.[7] Since Gary Johnson was, in some folks' opinion, the only true Republican on the ballot, he doubtless garnered a fair proportion of his support from "Never Trump" Republicans, especially given that Democrats had Stein seeming like the more compatible choice. So I suspect that people voting "other" did not change the outcome of the election, except to make it closer. While in theory the voting could have been strategic, with votes cast shrewdly for Johnson by Republicans in safe states and foolishly by Democrats in tossup states, the results from Florida - long expected to be the closest and most critical race of the election - were proportional at 2.2% and 0.7% [8] It would be far more productive to blame voter suppression for the outcome. In a more sparsely populated district voting took me a couple of minutes, but on the news we could see people lined up in critical cities like Philadelphia and Miami who had been waiting for many hours. Wnt (talk) 17:10, 9 November 2016 (UTC)
Indeed, even around rural Florida, the lines were 3x-5x longer than usual, and large cities likely meant people would miss hours of work to stand & vote. Colorado had mail-in ballots, remembered the smog over Denver, and voted Clinton climate change. -Wikid77 (talk) 13:32, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
Hello, I accidentally deleted all of your user page and I am unable to undo this for some reason. I am so sorry! Please know this was not intentional. Mathygrammar (talk) 18:30, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
That's a very odd response. I nearly used the example of Donald Trump versus es:Donald Trump. Quite famously, Donald Trump used twitter a lot in his campaign. English Wikipedia tells you that (barely) but doesn't include the actual twitter handle in the infobox. It's not about "Borg Collective" (not even sure why you linked that) - it's about providing information to readers.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:52, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
WP:ELMINOFFICIAL gives one guideline-based answer. Template:Twitter currently has 18,235 transclusions which is not insignificant. I see Lily Cole has links to three social media sites at the bottom of her official website. I wonder if she's too young to have also had a MySpace and Bebo, which would have made it five. -- zzuuzz(talk)19:10, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
Well, Lily is a random example really, so I wasn't really asking about her. Trump is the relevant example, but I decided as I was posting the comment that mentioning him might be too distracting. :)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:28, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
Twitter links have been suggested at the talk page of Template:Infobox person a handful of times in the past, but the discussions haven't attracted a lot of attention, and have suggested that external links is the best place. WP:ELOFFICIAL concurs that official social media is favoured there. The general feel of the various guidelines reads somewhat datedly (mired in the tone that the offical website is the central launchpad for social media contact rather than directly via the channels) and they should probably be updated to reflect the current decade of Internet. Stephen22:53, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
I'm all for having multiple online primary source links for subjects, but I don't want any company-specific policies here that promote web presence via one company and not another. And since we wouldn't want that massively used template being revised every time Twitter, Weibo or MySpace revises their directory structure, it's best not to be too clever about how the links are provided - just use the regular URL for all. Wnt (talk) 23:52, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
In specific cases, including the Twitter handle might make sense. For the vast majority of biographies, including such trivial information in the infobox would be weird, I think. Twitter is just one social network, of course. The information would make sense in Wikidata. For specific types of Wikipedia articles, such as Donald Trump as you mentioned and others like Jack Dorsey, including the Twitter handle in the infobox might make sense. These articles should already mention the handle in the article prose, regardless of infobox inclusion. (It's somewhat shocking that Jack Dorsey seems to omit that he's @jack on Twitter. Maybe I'm just bad at searching.) Other similar cases, such as YouTube celebrities, are probably similar: including the YouTube username in the infobox might make sense since so it's so essential to their identity and notability. As a general rule, not including social media usernames in infoboxes, even if verified/confirmed/authenticated, seems reasonable to me for a general-purpose encyclopedia. --MZMcBride (talk) 00:47, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
As I understand it, the view that it "would be weird" isn't universally shared at other language versions of Wikipedia. My view is that it should be standard, especially for verified twitter handles, and double especially for those which have been mentioned in reliable 3rd party press coverage, and triple especially in the case of someone who has attracted very twitter-specific controversy.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:28, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
Auto-population templates not so automatic
I have carefully updated the auto-population templates for Austria, to put the January 2016 counts into ~2,500 Austrian towns, copying from equivalent templates in German WP. However, there has been a massive Austrian redistricting for 542 municipalities (in state Styria), merged into 287 with 36 new towns, at the end of 2014, and English WP has been about 2 whole years out-of-date for current town names, population codes, area, town councils, mayor, etc. See for example, new town page "Aflenz". I have posted for help at wp:WikiProject Austria, and so there is a plan to update the 542 pages soon. However, this is a clear example of where Wikipedia is failing, in English WP, because instead our community must check periodically for redistricting in other nations when the native language is not English, and cross-translate from German WP, French WP, Spanish, Italian (etc.) where the new towns are rewritten in months, not 2 years.
We can change WP beyond a Footballpedia or Rockbandpedia into a timely Townipedia, but we must have management plans to avoid two-year delays in our coverage. Note, this is not a "new failure" or "mass exodus" of editors, but this town delay has lingered over 10 years where many town pages quickly become outdated to lag years behind current data. Also note how wp:Wikidata would not easily fix this problem, because the database population town-codes (German: Gemeindekennzahl) were altered in the same towns even though hundreds of Austrian towns kept the original town name but merged nearby towns into each new database town-code; beyond that complexity, each dissolved town-code was dropped from the database, so the final population of each former town will need to be hand-updated into each of 255 pages, beyond the current temporary autofix I made to handle those 255 populations during transition to next year's database which drops (retires) those 255 town-codes.
Also note, that although English WP had failed (2 years) with those 542 Austrian towns, the overall cross-language Wikipedias had succeeded amazingly well, even creating most 287 new town pages in German WPmonths before the new towns were officially running. The greatest strength (and future) of Wikipedia is not "Wikidata" items but rather "inter-wiki" text translation, to update extensive information across the world in rapid order. This is a key benefit in suggesting each reader view the best (current) other-language wikipedia pages about a topic. Thank you, Jimbo, for emphasizing the interwiki strengths of Wikipedia. -Wikid77 (talk) 17:58, 9 November 2016 (UTC)
I'm not sure I caught the fine points of the above, but I can say that there are many articles on municipalities outside of anglophone areas on En:Wiki, that should really be translated from the home country's language into English. I seems obvious that most additions to articles on a small or medium sized town are added by locals, almost all in the home language. Thus the English language articles on non-anglophone towns get out of date after awhile. Smallbones(smalltalk)01:19, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
Indeed, it is not just Germanic language areas, but many other towns, as with La Spezia, Italy (population ~93,000, near Genoa) on Italian Riviera, which has a condensed page in many languages but 8x more sections in Italian WP (and ~300 notable people). Many towns have few footnotes, while the page text is fine, because all the local people know the text is accurate. -Wikid77 (talk) 23:02, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
I agree Wikid77, automatic stats updating is long overdue. I've encountered a lot of vandalism/disruptive editing with editors tinkering with population figures, etc. These should update automatically across language wikis.
On the subject of referencing, yes these should all be handled by Wikdata
Also, I think we should write a new rule that all new references have an archiveurl permalink (easy to do with https://archive.org/) This would go a long way towards stopping linkrot.
Currently, German WP has many more auto-population templates for perhaps 50 nations, so we could start expanding to other towns (beyond Austria, Germany, South Africa, etc.) to handle France, Italy, Spain, Portugal soon, and meanwhile wp:Wikidata could discuss how they would handle hundreds of towns merged within a few months as new town key-codes, while not dropping the old towns until their final population counts can be hard-coded into pages before the key-codes are dropped from any Wikidata lists. This is a very complex problem and perhaps why Austria auto-population templates were delayed 10 months in 2016, as unable to handle 255 merged towns, until I made a patch to also include retired town key-codes for 2016. -Wikid77 (talk) 17:28, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
Two-Factor Authentication now available for admins
Hello,
Please note that TOTP based two-factor authentication is now available for all administrators. In light of the recent compromised accounts, you are encouraged to add this additional layer of security to your account. It may be enabled on your preferences page in the "User profile" tab under the "Basic information" section. For basic instructions on how to enable two-factor authentication, please see the developing help page for additional information. Important: Be sure to record the two-factor authentication key and the single use keys. If you lose your two factor authentication and do not have the keys, it's possible that your account will not be recoverable. Furthermore, you are encouraged to utilize a unique password and two-factor authentication for the email account associated with your Wikimedia account. This measure will assist in safeguarding your account from malicious password resets. Comments, questions, and concerns may be directed to the thread on the administrators' noticeboard. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 20:33, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
FYI the password has now been reset (to a very long secure password) and we've unlocked the account for now. The new password will be communicated to him separately. Jalexander--WMF01:07, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
Honestly, I would have never have guessed this account could be hacked. You would think Jumbo would have stronger security on his accounts.—cyberpowerChat:Offline01:12, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
Seeing as I spoke with them on IRC during this whole process I think we are fine. Anyways, if it was still compromised, and if Jalexander's was as well, I'd assume we would see proof of that. It is not like we didn't see it when Jimbo's was. In any case, I'd like to thank the swift action of admins, stewards, and staff members. The damage was minimal and quickly undone thanks to their quick response. --Majora (talk) 05:00, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
Sure, and I'm not doubting it, but social engineering is simple for those folks, and if they got control of someone's email they are likely to be able to grab the enwiki and IRC accounts, and chat with anyone. The real reason to be assured is that the account would be globally locked and unlocked by people able to check details. Johnuniq (talk) 05:07, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
Alternatively, a user with a committed identity could be sent an email with a list of one time passwords. This would not require any additional technology and would be inexpensive to implement. I have got a PGP public key on my user page which hardly ever gets used, but it can be used to contact me securely and prove ownership of the account in a way that a hacker would find difficult.--♦IanMacM♦(talk to me)08:58, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
It looks like the hacker was from the OurMine group of hackers, the same people who unfortunately hacked his Twitter account. I can tell as the first thing he did when he was hacked was protect their article. Something needs to be done to prevent hackers from logging in. Maybe what Ianmacm suggested would work well. Class455 (talk)10:34, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
"Just testing your security", as well as "Rank" as an edit summary, need to be added to the edit filter (& Ourmine's site should be added to the global spam blacklist). KATMAKROFAN (talk) 15:04, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
I don't speak regex, so I almost never touch the edit filter or the local spam blacklist. Since you mentioned the global list, I left a note for a steward requesting global blacklisting for the OurMine website. Nyttend (talk) 15:10, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
They've updated their blog to confirm they did it. I hope the Wikimedia Foundation shares how this happened; I suspect they just stole a few credentials, but OurMine says they stole a whole database. Sunmist (talk) 20:49, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
It feels like we should be waaaay past the point of blaming the victim on hacks. We're seeing billion dollar bank hacks, DNC hacks... the ShadowBrokers even hacked the NSA. At this point Richard Stallman's notion of not using passwords on accounts is starting to look not so crazy any more, given that nobody really has a secure account. The good thing is that at least Jimbo's Wikipedia account isn't secure infrastructure. :) That said, Wikipedia needs to remember that yes, if you keep a list of which IPs in a country access an article about a dissident, the government of that country will have full access to that list. If the internet has a future, it's one where less is more. Wnt (talk) 14:22, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
This is why I keep my real-life-important passwords (and would keep other things, too, if I had to) on a flash drive in a drawer in a secure location: there's no possible way to obtain the list without physically gaining access to the building and finding the drive. See the paragraph beginning with "Data analytics teams" at the Sneakernet article. Nyttend (talk) 14:59, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
Thank you so much for all that you have done for this world. Wikipedia is such an amazing tool and I am so proud to be a part of the community. Thanks once more for founding this amazing resource and I hope to be a Wikipedian for a long time to come. Jith12 (talk) 23:12, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
What happened?
I came here from the thread at WP:ANI about your account being compromised, as evidenced from the flurry of recent edits made on your account that have since been rev deleted. How did this happen? Did someone find out your password somehow? And most importantly, can you ensure it won't happen again? Everymorning(talk)00:50, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
I don't fully know what happened, of course, though I have some ideas. Presently I have a very strong password and also turned on two factor authentication, which I recommend to everyone.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:37, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
A new user group, New Page Reviewer, has been created in a move to greatly improve the standard of new page patrolling. The user right can be granted by any admin at PERM. It is highly recommended that admins look beyond the simple numerical threshold and satisfy themselves that the candidates have the required skills of communication and an advanced knowledge of notability and deletion. Admins are automatically included in this user right.
It is anticipated that this user right will significantly reduce the work load of admins who patrol the performance of the patrollers. However,due to the complexity of the rollout, some rights may have been accorded that may later need to be withdrawn, so some help will still be needed to some extent when discovering wrongly applied deletion tags or inappropriate pages that escape the attention of less experienced reviewers, and above all, hasty and bitey tagging for maintenance. User warnings are available here but very often a friendly custom message works best.
I have updated both the active adminstrators table and the accompanying chart. ‘Activity is defined as 30 or more edits during the last two months’. This shows a dramatic decline this year, contrasted with the flat experience of 2015, and continuing the steady, almost straight line downward trend. The contrast between the steady rise to the peak in February 2008 and the subsequent decline is remarkable. I don’t know of any generally accepted explanation for this. This month (November 2016) shows a further fall to 511. Peter Damian (talk) 18:52, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for this - an interesting but disturbing trend. Could you please clarify, or point me to a page, that details whether the 30 edits are to any en-WP articles/pages or e.g. only administrative duty-type edits. DrChrissy(talk)19:08, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
@Peter Damian OT, file format: Did you know that there are other graphic file formats exists? FYI JPEG is only for photos. Greetings → User: Perhelion23:02, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
Actually, JPEG is great for many line drawings beyond photos, with excellent resolution as small thumbnails, where lettering or lines get thicker when reduced and much clearer on many small devices; meanwhile there was a Wikipedia bug which downloaded PNG files in huge megabyte formats for small images, as 5x slower downloads than JPEG thumbnails. -Wikid77 (talk) 22:49, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
Perhaps there was an event, or series of events on or around early 2008 that we can point to as a possible initiator, if not outright cause of this downward trend? Such as a major policy change? Can anyone around from that time recall anything in particular? I didn't come around until later that year so wouldn't know. -- Ϫ03:33, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
RfA standards have been absurd for a long time. I definitely advocate a "probationary admin" category. The most widely-toted fix for admin promotion problems is mandatory recall, but that never gets consensus for the simple and obvious reason that it is vulnerable to lynch mobs of rebuffed POV-pushers. I think probationary periods might fix the long-term problem of unachievable standards. Guy (Help!) 00:49, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
I very strongly support this. I'd like to see us be bold and creative about this, too, in the sense of actually going much further than we are comfortable with in some experiments. I'd be curious to know what would happen, for example, if we simply made 20 busy editors admins randomly but in a probationary way. And I'd be uncomfortable with making 100. But why not try it? Why not make 100 busy people who seem to be quietly editing away into admins for a month, and then assess the results? There would likely be a couple of problems and 98 good people would have the tools.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:23, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
One big obstacle would be the Wikimedia Foundation, specifically the legal dept as they have in the past said they need RFA or an equivalent process before handing out view deleted rights. You of course might be able to resolve that. Another more practical obstacle is that if we handed out the rights to 100 long established Wikipedians it might be a while before many of them make much use of the tools; So it could take a lot more than a couple of months before we can assess what happened when these people started using the tools. Personally I would be OK with such an experiment, even more so if the de facto criteria were a combination of no obvious red flags such as recent blocks and a reasonable amount of tenure and contributions, specifically including having created well cited content. But then I'm not one of those who would oppose an RFA for "no need for the tools" - if anything I think that every new admin is a chance to get someone who might take up some of the admin load. But if you also filtered you 100 by checking if they have made correct AIV tags then you would have appeased the "No need for the tools" brigade. As for deletionism/inclusionism, I'd start by appointing 100 who haven't got involved in deletion. ϢereSpielChequers15:07, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
I don't think the WMF legal department is any obstacle in any way here. If there is serious movement to do something about the problem, we can consult with them to make sure that everything is OK with them, but I'm pretty sure that's not a problem at all. "No need for the tools" is another point that we can address pretty easily - we can just make it really clear through policy that "no need" is not a valid objection. I'd be happy to have 100 quality volunteers who use the tools only a few times a year than to have those same 100 quality volunteers not have the tools. Some of them will find the tools more useful than they thought, and/or will find a new hobby in admin tasks that they wouldn't have previously considered.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:53, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
Well if you can clear it with legal and overrule the "no need" lobby then I think there is a workable solution. We just need to Agree a criteria for adminship and empower some trusted editors such as the crats to appoint people who meet that criteria. I expect things would have to get much worse before we could get consensus for such a solution, but I'd probably support such an RFC. ϢereSpielChequers22:16, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
One way I've always thought could "fix" RfA is if adminship was handled the same way CU/OS appointments are. Vetting by a group (bureaucrats?), community comment and then a decision based on more than a count of the votes. This would also comply with WMF Legal's requirements for viewing deleted content. There would be no reason to remove RfA for this to work either - simply set up a parallel process and it'll pretty quickly be clear which option is the better one. Unlike CU/OS, there is no need for this to be done once a year - editors could submit nominations or self-nominations for consideration at any time. Should such a solution be implemented, it would also be good to define specifically what should be looked for in new admins, as well as making it easier to remove sysop access from those that abuse it. Perhaps not confirmations as I have suggested in the past, but a similar process where editors can submit requests for review of sysop access to the same body which can either make a summary judgement of "no", or if they think yes then can hold community consultations. That might be easier to get through an RfC (or boldly implement...) than arbitrary appointments :-) -- Ajraddatz (talk) 02:44, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
That sort of system works well at every level from Rollback to C/U, so yes it would be a logical supplement or replacement for RFA. But first you need to define a criteria for adminship, this is complex because there are multiple tools involved, a huge amount of the argument at a typical RFA is not about whether or not the candidate meets a particular part of the criteria, it is about whether something should or should not be in the criteria. So defining a criteria would be a non trivial task, but once you have it you take away much of the angst and hostility from RFA and hopefully you give an answer to the people who are worried about a particular part of the criteria. More importantly such a criteria could only be changed by consensus. One of the most damaging parts of the current RFA process is that it doesn't change by consensus, instead it only takes a blocking minority of a third of the RFA community to adopt a new rule for admin ship and de facto that new rule is part of the unwritten criteria. As for making it easier to desysop people, I'd suggest avoiding that topic unless and until you can define a group of admins who consensus would desysop but who Arbcom won't act against. ϢereSpielChequers09:39, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
It's not about defining groups at all, it's about confidence in the institution. A very common comment on RfAs in the oppose section is uncertainty regarding potential admin performance, and many explicitly cite the difficulty of removing "bad apples" as a reason for opposing. Accounting for this, rather than ignoring the concern and referencing an existing process which itself is criticized for being overly bureaucratic, isn't the answer. Even if such a recall process would go totally unused, its existence would help shape confidence in the institution and allow for more "risky" votes than the current system does. At the global level, we have assigned temporary adminship first on small wikis for nearly a decade now for this purpose, and experienced good results from it. I'm also not convinced that defining broad criteria would be difficult; most people would seem to agree that some general knowledge of content creation and deletion criteria, demonstration of level-headedness, and a use for the bit is a recipe for a successful request. Working out the specifics would of course be a bit more difficult. -- Ajraddatz (talk) 10:32, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
To those who support some sort of alternative to ARBCOM it may not be about who they would desysop who ARBCOM wouldn't; But to those of us who have successfully challenged several such attempts it is a a good test of whether a proposal is worthwhile. I like the analogy to a driving license. When someone says we need to create a new offence of "driving whilst using a non hands free mobile phone" we can discuss that and maybe change the law to add a new motoring offence. When someone says "we need to get rid of more bad drivers but I don't trust the courts to do it", you might ask why they don't trust the courts or what extra offence they want to define. ϢereSpielChequers06:10, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
This illustrates part of a point that I've made on Wikipediocracy previously: while the count of core volunteers has stabilized and to some extent recovered from what seemed a death spiral, the tally of active administrators continues to fall unabated. At issue is whether this is a problem: clearly the number of administrators that WP used to have in the days of No Big Deal was excessive; at the moment things are more or less being handled adequately; at some future point the wheels might fall off the train. Carrite (talk) 02:27, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
What evidence would you adduce to persuade others that the number of administrators used to be excessive? You say "clearly" but it does not seem clear to me.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:17, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
Borrowing the numbers above, if there were formerly 1,000 active administrators in 2008 and Wikipedia functioned, and now there are 500 active administrators and Wikipedia functions, it is axiomatic that 1,000 is an excessive number to the minimum number actually needed to preserve functionality. The question is this: at what point is WP functionality impacted by a lack of active administrators? Obviously nothing to date has altered a linear decline in this count. Compare and contrast to the very active editor (core volunteer) count, which has stabilized and rebounded over the last couple years. Carrite (talk) 13:10, 15 November 2016 (UTC) Last edit: Carrite (talk) 13:50, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
Looking at Peter's graph I think the anomaly is that we started this year with 593 admins, 2 up on the year before. Being down to 511 now is in line with the longterm decline. I suspect there was something in late 2015 that brought a bunch of near dormant admins back into temporarily counting as active. Whatever it is only had a short term affect and we are now back on trend. In theory we could reach a stage where an admin shortage tips us into a "death spiral" where being an admin becomes a burden as admins find themselves deluged with requests for admin action whenever they login. I can assure you we aren't there yet. More broadly, I'm not a great fan of RFA and I've seen it reject some good candidates and be unnecessarily rude to many fine editors. But a large proportion of those who do run pass by acclamation or something close to it. I believe there are hundreds of long term established editors who would probably pass RFA if they ran. Especially if they used the three standard questions to demonstrate that they had a need for the tools, had contributed to the pedia as well as protecting it, and any skeletons in their closets were dusty or learned from. ϢereSpielChequers15:27, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
We had a controversial ArbCom election last December, complete with a mass get-out-the-vote email. That might have been a factor in temporarily bumping activity levels among a number of more or less departed regulars. This year's election, on the other hand, is looking like a sleepy affair. Carrite (talk) 13:20, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
@Peter Damian: Peter, (or anyone else) do you think it might be possible to create a very similar graph but expressing the number of active admins as a % of total admins at that time. This would give us an impression of whether it is individuals becoming less active or whether this is a population-wide trait. DrChrissy(talk)18:21, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
@DrChrissy: I don't have the time to get the data on ratios - however my impression is that the decline matches that of the general population of Wikipedia. There are already graphs about this somewhere. Peter Damian (talk) 18:58, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
One should let these Admins edit from new accounts and also have the same number of the regular Admins do some of their Admin work from a new account. One can then do a blinded test where the people who evaluate the performance of these Admins don't know whether they are looking at the regular Admins or the newly assigned test Admins. Count Iblis (talk) 02:02, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
I decided to try and find how many admins have actually done admin tasks, rather just been normal editors. I've got details of the last time an admin deleted a file by looking at the user logs through the api. The results might be interesting
Period
Number of admins who deleted a file in that period
This data is getting dated, but there's some quick stats on admin actions as of 2015 here. In short, the story is that fewer hands are doing a greater proportion of the work compared to 2006 (which I picked because my original RfA was that year). Opabinia regalis (talk) 06:36, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
Although of course, "admin action" and "logged admin action" aren't the same thing. "If you do that again I will block you" is explicitly an administrative action (arguably the administrative action), but provided the person being warned heeds the warning so the threat doesn't need to be carried out, it won't show in any kind of admin log. ‑ Iridescent08:52, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
Certainly true, but looking at logged actions might serve as a better proxy for actual admin actions than merely edit count. There are certainly a good number of people with the admin bit who while being prolific editors don't actually do much in the way of administrative tasks. Salix alba (talk): 17:19, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
I'm probably in that group, Salix alba. I like to think that what admining I do is useful. But as I said at my RFA, I like to concentrate on content work. Having the tools to sort out vandals is very useful though. Mjroots (talk) 13:32, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
What the data seems to suggest is that there is a sliding scale following some form of power law type distribution. So there are 200 odd very active admins and a whole bunch of about 400 who do a few actions every year. It would be nice to compare edit frequency and other types of admin action. --Salix alba (talk): 15:36, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
Active editors
Successful RFAs by month
OK just for @DrChrissy: I found the data on active editors, i.e. editors with more than 5 edits per month. It looks similar except the peak is March 2007, not 2008. This is not the same as total admins, however. Peter Damian (talk) 20:10, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
Thanks very much for this Peter. Without doing curvilinear analysis on this, it looks to me like the number of active editors has been approximately constant since March 2013. That seems a much healthier state of affairs compared to the straight line decrease of active admins. DrChrissy(talk)20:17, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
You are right that the active editor count has flattened out. The more important very active editor count (100+ edits) has not only flattened out but rebounded over the last few years, erasing the declines recorded in about three previous years. We're still not at the levels that WP was when it was a minor internet fad (and probably never will be again owing to increased sourcing difficulty and the empirically demonstrable fact that WYSIWYG editing ability is no panacea), but there is no reason to panic over the core volunteer (100+) or the volunteer (5+) counts. The count of administrators, on the other hand, now that's an ongoing problem... Carrite (talk) 13:35, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
Thanks! Do we know whether this was because the number applying was constant and the failure rate increased massively, or because people simply stopped applying? Peter Damian (talk) 20:30, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
I believe a combination of three things; the "bulge" who signed up in 2006-07 when Wikipedia first became high-profile had all either already applied, or had no interest; assorted unpleasant incidents in 2007-08 making people scrutinize candidates more carefully; and knock-on effects of the unbundling of rollback. ‑ Iridescent20:38, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
To be fair though, the incidents in 2007-08 that started RFA towards a much more rigourous process were serious enough to justify some response. That RFA *now* is the Spanish Inquisition is a result of lack of sufficient caretaking of the RFA pages since 08. The usual excuses given by administrators for not slapping down the bad actors being 'Well RFA has always allowed a more confrontational approach' - which completely ignores that if you use this all the time, then as the basic position of humans without any oversight is 'being a dick' - RFA has got worse and worse. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:56, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
I'm not reading everything but for a balanced analysis I think we need a graph about the total amount of sysop activity, including those actions that were "devolved" to specific subclass of users (including rollbakcers... I suspect also movers, you know the flag system here better than I do). It's a common trend on many platforms to refine the flag system so specific functionalities are spread around. This trend has to be compared with the overall amount of edit (maybe separated by ns0 and non-ns0, patrolled and not patrolled) and check if this two trends are in agreement. If they are, than the reduction in number of sysop is not critical per se. It is just a predictable aspect of a weakening of overall participation, including sysop activity.
But even if the two trends (sysop and sysop-like actions and overall edits) are in agreement, It can be useful to check if the distribution of such actions is more or less balanced. For example if in 2008 top 20 sysop accounted for, I don't know, 30% of the action and now top 20 sysop and rollbackers account for 40%, or something like that, well that could be an issue to fix. Not as important as overall participation, but quite important.
If there is lack of advanced flag, probably the best strategy is to make users close to them. I always suggest autopatrolled, mover, sysop flags to a lot of users on the platforms I'm active, there is a lot of people who still can be involved. Sometimes you need some very simple wikimetrics to find them. So the lack of certain classes of users is often a minor problem or a mentality one... if you want to find some, you can find them easily. On itwiki we did with rollbackers, we just selected the users who had more revert edits, scroll the top of the lists, selected those who were active, suggest them to ask for the flag... after 6 months we had increased the number of rollbackers, who later also became sysop after a de facto small cursus honorum. The only reason why this can't be done is that there is always some long-term user who some very generic statement about automatism or whatever, even if nothing of this is automatic. it's just statistics. And it works. The are many known examples.--Alexmar983 (talk) 05:28, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
The Challenge Series is a current drive on English Wikipedia to encourage article improvements and creations globally through a series of 50,000/10,000/1000 Challenges for different regions, countries and topics. All Wikipedia editors in good standing are invited to participate. North America100007:56, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
Remember, tomorrow, Sunday 20 Nov 2016 is the cutoff date for new ideas, in the "Meta:2016 Community Wishlist Survey". Currently, there are numerous highly technical proposals in the categorized lists of suggestions, so it might take an extra 2 hours to read through and see which major ideas have been overlooked so far.
Another wikipedia's style of discarding a 90-year old administrator
Hi Jimbo Wales - On another wikipedia the most senior administrator, aged 90, is being voted out [9] of the corps, during the twice-yearly "consolidation rounds". The voters - mostly(?) administrators are not giving reasons for voting him out. Would it be better if that wikipedia makes rules that say: After age 89 we will remove one's admin status, and we will also do that if one become disabled or non-heterosexual.
May I respectfully ask you, if you have any words, here and now, for that person and/or anyone else in the same shoes? Perhaps even "You are sorry to hear that he is being voted out of the administrator corps without any clearly communicated rationale", or something like that." Perhaps a simple word from you will somewhat unruffle the feathers of the admin who has already been pushed off the train, and will hit the ground in about a week. P.S. There is no ageism against 17-year old administrators on that wikipedia. And I have no reason to believe that the media of the other nation has gotten wind of the story yet. At worst wikipedia can only get a face-slap out of that, and the story will probably be forgotten by media and most everyone, after a few years. If even the story gets any mileage at all. 176.11.187.111 (talk) 10:59, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
I am generally opposed to all removal of admin bits for anything other than misconduct. The practice of removing the bit after a period of inactivity has always been unsupported by any actual evidence that it has any benefit, and there is clear evidence that it causes harm by hurting people's feelings. I hasten to add that my reading of the google translate shows that this is not about inactivity, but appears to be about some conflict perhaps not involved misuse of the tools? But it is obviously too difficult for me to offer an opinion on the details. In principle, I think we should be quite cautious about removing admin bits.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:41, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
Hi Jimbo, we have a clear inactivity removal policy here on enwiki for administrators that appear to have left the project. I've never seen following our policy to be controversial (there has been friction about expanding it to barely-active editors) - can you elaborate on your "clear evidence that it causes harm"? — xaosfluxTalk19:11, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
Hi Jimbo, you are correct that the matter has nothing to do about inactivity (and to my knowledge nothing about admin tools either); the busy beaver has been creating too many articles! At an average of perhaps three per day. Instead of us being grateful for that, and paring down articles to stubs (in the many cases when the articles are less than adequate), the elderly figurehead has been kicked over the shipside, because my language's wikipedia could not reach consensus on a chickenshit "problem", and instead the figurehead has been loosely defined by a hardcore group of admins, as him being the problem more or less.
@xaosflux, perhaps a seperate thread would at this time be more appropriate regarding your question to Jimbo. (I like your question, however I think it should be disregarded in this discussion now, because the original background of the case at hand, has now been somewhat more adequately explained.) Thank you. 176.11.200.97 (talk) 19:53, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
I agree with Jimbo. The policy doesn't say administrators must be de - sysopped for inactivity - it says they may be. I don't see the point, quite honestly, and for the same reason I would oppose "easy come, easy go". As for expanding the policy to "barely-active editors", this presumably refers to reviewer, rollback etc. rights. 86.136.230.115 (talk) 05:08, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
If it was related to "administrators that appear to have left the project" it might make some sense, but as has been pointed out it relates to failure to use the tools even by administrators who edit actively. It's ironic that the community wants to remove the tools for creating too many articles when he has been using his tools to delete them! 86.136.230.115 (talk) 05:24, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
Regarding F.bendik being voted out. As I see it the reason is partly as it seems he does not need the admin tools, which can easily be seen by checking his history as admin. Seems he only use it to delete his own articles.
The more important issue is that admins are supposed to be open for communicating with the others on the project and to follow our policies. F.bendik creates a huge amount of badly translated articles and he ignores all attempts to discuss it. This creates a lot of work for others on the project to clean up after him. If anyone question that they can check his discussion page or this thread.
@Ulflarsen - Any problematic article created (even with special tools) by F.bendik needs two minutes from a brain-damaged monkey or a lobotimized tweeker, to reduce such article to a stub.(30 seconds less might be needed if the edit is done by a regular wikipedian). He is getting articles created, and some of the topics would not likely have been created for decades, if at all. Please explain the rationale of telling someone, more or less: "Bend over! And I hope that you will continue to create articles and continue your enthusiasm for wikipedia, after you have been tarred and feathered."
So far, about 8 admins have voted against F.bendik and, more or less, seemingly against a development of wikipedia as Jimbo Wales wishes.
Which admin will be the first to vote for the continued adminship of F.bendik?
(Of course not you, however at least you have had the decency, for now, of not being one of the eight to give F.bendik a formal wiki-stab, during the present wikiStab-an-administrator contest.)
Administrators are not subject to response-times! If a newbie contacts F.bendik, then the newbie will get help from someone including maybe from F.bendik. However, when admins are goose-steppin' while patrolling the countryside, and then proceed to knock on F.bendik's door - well, the funny thing is that F.bendik ignores when other administrators have camped out on his doorstep (or talk page), to demand this or that. The density of administrators who seem to have qualified for receiving a wiki-wedgie, is quite high among the admins who are bullying etc. on F.bendik's talk page. FFS, the man is 90 years old!!
@UlfLarsen - I am not concerned about there being a lack of wiki-hangman qualifications among administrators: Choosing the correct rope, calculating the drop, chosing the proper mask for the victim, etc. I am guessing that one problem is maybe that your wikipedia has admins that are too much alike. (And I am not a candidate. Besides, not many are informing Jimbo, when the shit's hitting the fan. This incident has similarities to the following:
"On 22 October media cited Reijo Jylhä(fi), a former chief of Finland's national team: "I know very well how things are being felt [now] in Norway. To me it looks like they are making the same mistake that we made after the Lahti Scandal. They are not forthcoming with the entire truth". When asked about what advice he has for Norway and the ski federation, he said: "I think it's too late. When the first case comes - the case regarding Sundby - and disclosures replace disclosures, then the damage is done. One cannot compare the cases of Sundby and Johaug. But when things go wrong, things often turn out the way they are doing in Norway".[10]") 176.11.239.241 (talk) 11:28, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
Irreparable damage will only occur if F.bendik dares to be photographed by media: If things go that far, then an image might fasten: Now that I, a potential wikipedian, is having more free time (at work or outside work), then I will become gradually unwanted at wikipedia around the time of retirement age; just like what happened to that F.bendik-dude who was interviewed on national TV in December 2017.
The moral of the story: If F.bendik's case makes it to national news, then that is equivalent of taking out a two million dollar ad in People magazine, saying:
"Find yourself a hobby other than wikipedia. If you stay at wikipedia, make plans for how to tackle emotional abuse in retirement age." 176.11.239.241 (talk) 11:51, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
To 176.11.239.241: The task of correcting the loads of articles created by F.bendik is big, and anyone checking into his contributions can easily see that. Its also easy to see good contributors frustrations about him going on creating new articles, instead of working on correcting the one's he has already created.
You are also wrong that its only admins voting against him, of the 9 votes 4 are from ordinary users. I have not voted against him as I believed his renomination would fail due to a lack of votes, as you may see I have not given him a vote of support. To end this comment, I do not believe I will much convince 176.11.239.241, I write this mainly to put some facts right about this election. Ulflarsen (talk) 11:46, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
Well good for you. Now if you and other administrators, can figure out if it would be advisable to "vote for" the administrator now, and at the same time figure out other ways to levy sanctions against his alleged transgressions. Please inform us: If an administrator is having a period of problematic brainfarts, can your wikipedia block the administrator for one or two days at a time?
In the end, do I think your wikipedia will get what it deserves. Probably, yes.
But at least your wikipedia and its administrators had a chance now to take action, even with Jimbo spelling out how he sees things, with his limited info about the case.
You or other administrators, have not yet "acted on Jimbo's view".
When things turn out the way they expectedly will, in years to come, you and other administrators can say "We knew it all back then, and here we are in wiki-misery. How unfair!" 176.11.50.89 (talk) 12:53, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
That other wikipedia has had one attempt today, of removing mention of Jimbo Wales commenting their process of voting-out the 90-year old admin [11] (talk) 13:33, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
It seems that F.bendik has now been denied due process, so that might give the powers that be, an escape from the mess of having to kick out that admin, on grounds of technicalities: (And one can delay the defrocking of F.bendik until the next axe-round.)
Now new IP-users can not [13] ask question or comment on F.bendiks case,
courtesy of the same admin that is removing mention of Jimbo Wales general comments surrounding the F.bendik case. 176.11.31.68 (talk) 14:17, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
The last articles created by the victimized administrator (who will be defrocked Sunday/Monday)
@UlfLarsen - The last article that F.bendik edited, I have now solved[14]. It took me two minutes (which makes me a brain-damaged monkey).
Expect more "solved cases", from myself and others.
I am looking forward to hearing more of your song-and-dance, until the administrator will actually be defrocked on Sunday/Monday.
P.S. Please show me a single article of his, that you find more difficult (to solve) than all other articles.
(No, I am not saying that you are responsible for solving articles that might have one or more inadequacies.) 176.11.50.89 (talk) 12:09, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
@UlfLarsen - Here is a list of the articles F.bendik has created [15]. Was any of the articles problematic in such a way that you nominated any article for deletion? Please name any such article. 176.11.50.89 (talk) 12:16, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
To 176.11.50.8: Your edit seems to prove my point. What is the use of a lot of stubs like that who is left after you removed most of the content? F.bendik is breaking a basic rule: Within reasonable limits, clean up your own mess. Over the last year he has been given lots of requests and chances to do that. He rarely reply and he goes on creating a huge load of new articles with poor quality. I don't think thats the way we should improve and expand Wikipedia and many of the other contributors to Wikipedia in Norwegian Bokmål/Riksmål seems to agree with me in that. Ulflarsen (talk) 12:29, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
Stubs can be very useful for moderate-sized wikipedias, such as "yours". The use might be of less interest on this wikipedia, however, your wikipedia is a dwarf in size compared to this one. (Not sure if dwarf is a PC term.) 176.11.31.68 (talk) 14:29, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
To 176.11.50.89: I have seen enough already of badly translated articles from F.bendik, so I'm not interested. I also believe our discussion has come to an end, at least my interest in answering you. I have posted the relevant facts as I see them, with links for anyone that want to check for themselves. Ulflarsen (talk) 12:56, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
@UlfLarsen - No, you admins are actually ignoring a major rule (and arguably much more important then the rule that you are citing): If an article sucks beyond reasonable repair, then nominate the article for deletion!!
Are you saying that you did not ever have the balls, in regard to F.bendik's articles, to nominate a single article for deletion?
If that is the case, then I am happy that our discussion has ended.
Maybe the next time you admins are being updated, then y'all should discuss: The wikiSteward-part of being an admin, includes nominating articles for deletion, when a article's collection of inadequacies surpass a certain level. (And I don't expect you to be able to give much input for that part of the admin-trainingManual.)
Are you another one from that wikipedia who has not had balls to vote for or against F.bendik? You are an administrator there; did you ever nominate any of his articles for deletion? Please name any such article. Or please explain why you did not nominate any of his articles for deletion; am I correct in assuming that you find articles worthy for deletion, nearly every day on wikipedia - and you nominate those accordingly, without delay? 176.11.125.233 (talk) 13:51, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
@4ing - Congratulations for your success [16] in the same political process where F.bendik is now failing.
Wikipedia's work in your country will potentially have a major liability, that might simmer for years to come, before negative consequences might even accelerate.
I don't expect you to offer any insight in the F.bendik case, or new solutions. You are not being defrocked (there are only three votes against you for now, supported by notable claims against you), and that might be all that matters. 176.11.125.233 (talk) 14:05, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
"Productive editor — conflict person"
...or something like this. I remember once you expressed your position about it (that big positive contribution is not an excuse for everything) and at Commons it was a photo of you with a slide with your statement about it from some wiki-conference. But I cannot recall the exact words and Commons search didn't work for me. Do you remember what and where could it be? --Neolexx (talk) 18:47, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
The same issue goes back over 10 years, as in November 2007, the Jimbo quote:
" I value most highly those who work together in harmony to create content. Content creation, however, does not excuse bad behavior... for the simple reason that bad behavior (drama mongering) drives away content creators. We want people who work quietly and peacefully with others in a spirit of harmony to create content. There are users who do create content, yes, but who also engage in persistent drama all over the wiki. That's got to stop, and if we lose a few people who are driving away others, then so much the better." --Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:17, 24 November 2007, in talk-page "/Archive_29"
I think the basic idea is like a "bad apple" which poisons the whole bunch, even though it might seem easily left in place, as too much bother to remove (compared to other efforts). Many editors are very busy, and do not see the need to spend time removing troublesome users. However, an overarching problem is the vast number of bad-apple users, almost as if somehow, "Absolute power corrupts absolutely" (maybe?), and many long-term editors would tend to become obsessed with power, rather than welcoming new (slow) users into the community. Thereby, a larger solution might be "term limits" as for admins on Swedish Wikipedia since 2006. -Wikid77 (talk) 19:50, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
Thank you for the quote. It was a question to me as an ArbCom candidate (about the issue with high productivity vs. difficult behavior) so I put the translation with the original there. But that photo of Jimbo with a slide and a quote on it? Can be just a false memory... --Neolexx (talk) 22:02, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
"Annoying user, good content" Bingo! Exactly that one (I rephrased it well far away, no wonder Commons search failed). Thank you for your help. --Neolexx (talk) 02:09, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for the tip on this book Wavelength. It looks useful. I must be obsessed, I checked the index to see if this was some sort of Heritage Foundation thing. Not at all! SashiRolls (talk) 01:23, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
I know that my opinion is not important here. But I see Comment on the Congressional Testimony as the praiseworthy or even advertisement in favor for Wikipedia. Jimbo is not responsible here. And as far as I know officers of governments in most of the middle and small countries, particularly those with small number of assets abroad, use primarily Wikipedia as a major open source of information. At least in the starting phase of collecting intel. (If you think that I said something improper please be free to revert my statement).79.101.187.172 (talk) 01:09, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
Since Wikipedia content is Creative Commons licensed, there is nothing wrong with doing this. However, the Wikipedia:General disclaimer applies and it is polite to say if the material was taken from Wikipedia. Journalists are the worst offenders here. They often lift chunks of Wikipedia without any attribution, but would be the first to complain if it was wrong, which famously happened with Ronnie Hazlehurst due to this edit on Wikipedia.--♦IanMacM♦(talk to me)07:49, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
This strikes me as something like a political story. Nunes has been pushing for the base at the Azores for awhile. What better to do than trying to shame the Pentagon to get his way? Note: this is speculation, but I've heard that people play games like this in DC. The only solid info I've seen on what the so-called plagiarism is is a Fox News and the Wall Street Journal. It looks like pretty innocuous stuff, the Wikipedia material looks pretty basic and very likely correct. It's not our problem if that's the case, and also only a bit embarrassing to the Pentagon, if they checked the info and it is correct. The Wiki info is not ref'd - it's in the lede. But there are refs to an air force site, the material may have come from there. The WSJ said Wiki photos were used. There are gov't photos in the Commons cat. So I do think the so-called plagiarized info should be properly checked, to see whether it came from us or from the air force (that site is now a deadlink). Smallbones(smalltalk)00:15, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
I haven't investigated this particular incident enough to be able to come to any firm conclusions, but my views on such things shouldn't surprise anyone really. I'm happy when people use Wikipedia, and and I'm unhappy when people don't give appropriate credit to sources of all kinds. Re-use is good, plagiarism is bad. But I'm not that upset when something like this appears to be in error, not commercial, etc.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:15, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
How do we know that the Wikipedia article didn't copy text from a publicly available pentagon document? Two things being the same does not necessarily reveal who copied from whom. The article cited above doesn't provide sufficient detail to support a conclusion of plagiarism by DOD. JehochmanTalk18:10, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
Tricky. Years ago, I found a city totally copied an article on a park on their website but I only knew that because I had written most the article. A year later or so they replaced their old website and their copy was gone, so that was that. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:22, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
One strategy would be to take a few sentences of the copied text and run a Google search for that text surrounded by quotes. See all the documents where it's used and try to determine which is the oldest. I wouldn't be surprised if the source of this info was the CIA factbook. Point being, if people are going to throw around accusations, they ought to have a factual basis, not just a theory. JehochmanTalk18:54, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
Hello, Jimbo Wales. Voting in the 2016 Arbitration Committee elections is open from Monday, 00:00, 21 November through Sunday, 23:59, 4 December to all unblocked users who have registered an account before Wednesday, 00:00, 28 October 2016 and have made at least 150 mainspace edits before Sunday, 00:00, 1 November 2016.
The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.
Jim,
I am sure you are very busy with other things, and I am not here to ask you to drop a bomb, but as you published this article on the Huffington Post, I wanted to invite your commentary, however briefly, on the discussion now happening in the WP:COI talk page. COI policy Is dysfunctional, and I have ample evidence as an OTRS volunteer to show why. What to do next is the problem. (Example: right now I am handling an OTRS ticket from a young woman who wants to update her firm's clients' pages with factual information and wants to go by the book but is floored by WP:COI). Since you have written about this very subject, and if you have any thoughts, please drop by and share them. We'd all appreciate a word from the, er, "Wikimessiah" (that is, if you yourself have any thoughts to offer— it looks like most of your page gets handled by assistants, which is pretty much what I expected given your high profile, which is fine, of course). THANK YOU! KDS4444 (talk) 10:17, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
The proper policy to look at is WP:PAID. It states that the woman who "wants to update her firm's clients' pages" must disclose that she is a paid editor on her main user page, the article talk page, or in edit summaries. It appears that she is working for a PR firm so WP:PAID's "If you have been hired by a public-relations firm to edit Wikipedia, you must disclose both the firm and the firm's client," applies directly.
WP:PAID further states that WP:COI "advises those with a conflict of interest, including paid editors, not to edit affected articles directly." Since it only "advises", I suppose you could tell her that she may edit the affected pages at her own risk. But I would certainly add "Please don't".
What can she do?
Edit talk pages. Once she discloses, she can add pretty much anything she wants to a talk page, including the exact text and references she wants to include.
If she doesn't want to do this, she can give you, the OTRS volunteer, the complete text and refs and you can post it on the talk page (assuming OTRS allows this).
or she can ask her employer to post the complete text and refs on the employer's website, or on the client's website. As long as they license the material CC-BY-SA, any volunteer can copy and paste it to Wikipedia.
KDS4444, I would like to ask you to be much more specific - I'd like to see the "ample evidence" and also to hear some details on what is going wrong at WP:COI in your view, and what might be done to improve it?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:34, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
Thank you for the response! I began the process of identifying those OTRS tickets I handled where I encouraged the client to disclose his/ her conflict of interest, but then realized that my OTRS confidentiality agreement prohibits me from naming and names as does the WP:OUTING policy, neither of which do I wish to violate. Do you have access to the OTRS system? If so, I can at least post the associated ticket numbers here. I am also pretty sure I can contact some other OTRS agents who will be glad to testify to the relative infrequency with which clients having a COI actually go on to disclose it anywhere. Please let me know if you would be willing to accept this type of evidence in lieu of other, more sensitive information. The difficulty is that although we have some well-established guidelines regarding COI editing, it doesn't appear anyone is actually following them: no one will ever know for certain how much COI editing goes on, but my own quick search for the placement of the {{connected contributor}} template on article talk pages turned up only 0.15%, which strikes me as impossibly low. The fact is that there is very little incentive for anyone to disclose their own COIs, but plenty of apparent costs, including the pubic stigma of announcing that you must not edit certain articles (I go over this is more detail on the talk page I mentioned above, but you've asked me to explain it here as well). I am not certain what the solution is yet (if there is one, and maybe there just isn't) but a system that only appears to punish editors for taking optional steps to disclose COIs does not appear to have resulted in very much actual disclosure— and that doesn't come as much of a surprise to me, but it does mean that the COI disclosure system, though it may be the best one that we can come up with, isn't doing much. The situation reminds me of life aboard US navy vessels in the time of Herman Melville: he described the sailors of the ship he served on as a pack of thieves, all of them constantly stealing each other's property: the officers would be told of this, and would issue loud threats and violent consequences for any member of the crew caught doing it. And then everyone quietly went back to doing it because there was no way to tell who had actually stolen what or from whom (his book White Jacket covers this behavior in all its details). Now I have left a fat wall of text here, which I had so not intended to do! KDS4444 (talk) 21:56, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
There's not much evidence of confusion in the above, just your statement that some people don't want to follow the rules. I'd think a firm statement to to those who ask you at OTRS about being a paid editor, to the effect that "you must declare your paid status or you will be in violation of our policies and the Terms of Use," would work wonders.
Your comparison above of Wikipedia editors to a "pack of thieves" does have some merit, though I think you should clearly state that you don't think all Wikipedia editors are thieves. But those paid editors who do come here and are told that they must declare their paid status but refuse and edit anyway, do remind me of thieves. They are stealing advertising from a nonprofit organization meant to spread knowledge, not ads, through the world. They are stealing our credibility - who wants to read articles with hidden ads in them? They are not adding anything to the encyclopedia - we don't need more articles on small town "life-style malls" or soon-to-be book publishers who intend to republish old books.
And I'll remind you that the Terms of Use change RfC that required disclosure was the largest RfC ever, with 80% in favor. There's no confusion here, just folks who want to turn Wikipedia into a vehicle for hidden ads. Smallbones(smalltalk)02:48, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
I know some folks celebrate the holiday in the UK, and you've got some turkeys there too! It's been a rough year in some respects, but we all have something and some people to be thankful for (e.g. the Cubs won the World Series). Happy Thanksgiving. Smallbones(smalltalk)01:10, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
What is a Wikipedia topic ID, and how did it help win Donald Trump the election with fake news?
I just encountered [18]. As I understand it, conservatives claimed Facebook's news feed had a liberal bias. Since reality has a liberal bias, the most straightforward way for Facebook to deal with the problem was to fire all its reporters and put an algorithm in charge that disseminated some proportion of fake news, including an article read 500,000 times shortly before the election that claimed an agent investigating Hillary had been killed who didn't exist. Now mind, I have no actual idea if the "fake news" phenomenon is significant, or the griping of journalists valiantly fighting to preserve their archaic profession, or some kind of phase II in an operation to censor what Facebook will allow to be covered.
Where this concerns us is that the origin of the fake news stories was something called a "Wikipedia topic ID", which Facebook used to decide if a story makes the cut, no matter whether it was about something real or imaginary. What I'm not so clear on is what that is, which surprises me since I've been around here a while. There's no WP:Topic ID, put it that way. Who are the gatekeepers of the topic ID, is it being done right, and was Wikipedia used to enable a fake news outbreak? Wnt (talk) 11:35, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
Well, Dear Wnt, politics is the nasty business and by definition all means are applicable to achieve the "necessary" goals. That include framing, fake news or data, manipulation and similar stuff. Whoever enter the world of politics or the struggle for power must be prepared for worst outcomes and consequences. As for "Wikipedia topic ID", its good idea.79.101.187.172 (talk) 15:18, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
I for one would be interested in the use of these hidden categories / property IDs. The power of naming is an interesting one... we saw this recently with the change of ReZpect Our Water to Dakota Access Pipeline protests. Talking of which, I heard Jimbo Wales say at the Cato Institute that he was looking for a "commons" cause like SOPA that all of Wikipedia could get behind for a blackout. ^^ Also: in researching your question a bit I landed on this open article (peer reviewed in principle), which now that I've been active on Wikipedia to keep an eye on "neutrality"'s pov, I've learned how to footnote.[1]well, sort of... Love the idea of Wikipedia (immense thank yous to all Wikipedians), but hate the fraternity-terror described by JP Sartre (sauce?) in the Critique of Dialectical Reason when a fused (or fusing) group cools into a hierarchy. SashiRolls (talk) 19:22, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
So far I'm still not sure if TechCrunch is even telling the truth. The stuff I find about Facebook and topic-ids is not so easy to put in context, but doesn't seem like it leans on one source. [19][20] That said, I don't even know if these are relevant to what they were doing in early November. I wouldn't assume their topic-id somehow corresponds to one of our article titles versus (for example) some kind of hybrid of Wikidata's New York Times and Wall Street Journal topic-ids above ... it could be anything, really. But since they essentially pointed the finger at Wikipedia in that article somebody's going to have to figure it out. Wnt (talk) 23:21, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
I wonder if it could be related to Facebook's "Community Pages" feature, introduced 2010, that pulled content from Wikipedia. It'd be an easy leap for a Facebook employee to simplify "Facebook ID representing a topic with a Community Page that has content pulled from Wikipedia" into "Wikipedia topic ID". All we've got on the Wikimedia end is article IDs and titles, categories, and now Wikidata items, and all of those are subject to the usual rules (NPOV, verifiability, reliable sources, etc.) on our end. It's a red herring to relate Wikipedia's accuracy to Facebook's fake news problem; ultimately, it's Facebook's detection of "a Wikipedia topic [being] frequently discussed in the news or Facebook" that is at issue. {{Nihiltres |talk |edits}}15:29, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
From what I read there, I think the TechCrunch author misunderstood what he was told. Here's what I think Facebook was doing. There was an algorithm which was looking at millions and millions of comments in real time, parsing string tokens out of it. Obviously people talk about a lot of things that aren't actually "trending topics" and so you need a way to figure out which are actually trending topics rather than merely common strings of words that aren't really a topic. One quick and pretty accurate way to do that is to check if it's a topic in Wikipedia. Let me be more clear by making up a purely hypothetical example.
Suppose the top 3 trending phrases in the past 10 minutes were: "I went to", "My father said", and "Battle of Mosul". The first two are obviously just ordinary things that people say in various contexts over time, as opposed to being "topics". The last one, though, is a topic, and it has a Wikipedia entry.
Using that kind of data from Wikipedia hardly means "Facebook’s algorithm is barely more than a Wikipedia-scraping bot".
I think we can get pretty strong consensus among Wikipeidans who have been around for a long time that we are a little bit susceptible to hoaxes on obscure topics, but not particularly susceptible to "fake news". If a fake news story from a made up source is flying around facebook claiming that the Pope has endorsed Donald Trump, our very experienced and very human editors are going to scrutinize that very surprising claim quite carefully. Indeed, a decent "human algorithm" when you hear something that sounds suspicious is to go to the Wikipedia entry and talk page and see what the Wikipedians are saying about it. Our culture is strongly pro-evidence and pro-fact-checking.
Ok, that's all well and good, but I thought I'd share a few thoughts about what I think Facebook should do. They can't stop people from sharing whatever they want to share - but they can and do share related things along with it. And they can and do control algorithmically (and for various business and other reasons) how much 'reach' a particular post has. If I share something on Facebook, it might be seen by a tiny portion of my followers unless I pay, as one example. If my friend shares a story about Trump and the Pope, then Facebook often also shows me other stories on that topic. They could use this to attempt to help people out of their filter bubble by making sure that if extremist or suspect sources (editorial judgment is required here) are being shared, that they are at least being paired with more centrist and higher quality sources.
However, note well - this is something that many people quite rightly fear! Do we really want Facebook to be shaping our view of the world based on the internal decisions of unaccountable editors? That's what people were concerned about when it was revealed that there was a bias in their trending topics... it's easier to be calm about this if Facebook's bias matches our own, of course.
So what I suggest - and there is much to figure out about how they could do it in practice - is an open community process with discussion and compromise to shape the editorial policy - and a clear publication of the weightings that are given to various publications in the sharing/trending algorithms. One would hope to see high quality sources (left and right) be more readily promoted than low quality sources.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:33, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
This makes sense overall. I agree with your worry about Facebook, whether humans or machines are nominally in charge. I should have linked our article fake news site, which goes into some of this. It is worth noting that Internet censorship in China is way ahead in its focus on the spreading of false rumors (yaoyan), so Facebook and the Great Firewall could in theory work together on the same list, though in practice I suppose that as with motion picture rating systems each country would want a nominal autonomy. I don't think that mechanical or human censorship is the solution to a stream of fake news - really, it is the entire Web 2.0 model of instant upclicking of any opinion you happen to agree with - and downclicking of any other - that is to blame here. In the late 1990s, companies came to us and put forward the suggestion that they could do a great job of remaking the internet, and the answer is, they can't; all they can do is whore after eyeballs, leavened as necessary with some whoring after officials in positions of power over them. Wikipedia by contrast is a bastion of Old Web thinking, people thinking carefully and writing what they think is true, and that should be a powerful force for good.
I should say that as far as I can figure out the specific incident cited by Techcrunch, concerning a fictitious FBI agent "Michael Brown",[21] never had a Wikipedia article - at least, we have no references to the "Denver Guardian" anywhere on-site, and the fictitious nature of that paper ought to have come up at any AFD. So despite my misgivings about some of the Wikidata way of doing things, so far I think Techcrunch is simply wrong and Wikipedia had nothing substantial to do with this. Wnt (talk) 19:51, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
People spreading nonsense online is nothing new; Usenet and e-mail forwards were a breeding ground for all sorts of nonsense. Snopes was started by a couple of alt.folklore.urban regulars. In fact it's older than PCs; see faxlore. The only thing that's changed is the scale and incentives; now you can put up bullshit tailored to people's biases, disseminate it to billions via Facebook, Twitter, etc., and get paid for doing it from ads. --47.138.163.230 (talk) 03:40, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
Well, it didn't take long for that prediction to start coming true: [22] As for Usenet and email chains, well, the difference there was that you would be made fun of if you believed them. Wnt (talk) 12:42, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
The Facebook trending feature is pretty useless and no better then the Yahoo! version or Twitter equivalent. It is ram-packed with gossip and TMZ-style reporting. Case in point, somebody called Ronda Rousey is apparently trending heavily because she cried about somebody else losing a fight. The Wikipedia article has been under WP:PC since September. Karst (talk) 12:12, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
Over the past week, a woman has made serious and (currently) unproven claims against the famous photographer David Hamilton. These claims made their way into his Wikipedia article. During this time, User:Wvdpanhuysen created an account to suggest at Talk:David Hamilton (photographer) that the allegations are removed. It was almost certainly a single-purposer account. The user found no reply. Earlier tonight, Mr Hamilton was found dead at his home in an apparent suicide. Whilst Wikipedia is probably not to blame here, it should make editors feel very uncomfortable. 2A00:23C4:A683:6A00:B09D:E229:E3F9:2664 (talk) 23:03, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
This kind of response is precisely why I gave up editing Wikipedia. I have come to post a genuine concern and straight away get a rude, dismissive reply. What happened to assume good faith? The article clearly states that some reports are citing suicide, which is sad even if he is 83 (as if old-age would make it unimportant?). A brand-new user is unlikely to know WP:BIO or to know Wikipedia's policies in detail. Wvdpanhuysen should have known straightforward ways to contact experienced, helpful editors. 2A00:23C4:A683:6A00:B09D:E229:E3F9:2664 (talk) 00:07, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
The article did not say anything about suicide at the time Kleuske composed their reply to you, for the simple reason that no reliable source had done so as of that time. Now that reliable sources have done so, this reliably sourced information has been added to the article. Indeed, assume good faith. General IzationTalk 00:54, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
I assume good faith, but that does not imply I have to agree. The phrase "it should make editors feel very uncomfortable" is nothing short of an attempt at guilt-tripping non-involved editors. The one page you haven't posted your concerns to, is the appropriate talk-page, where these remarks might actually do some good. Kleuske (talk) 01:07, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
I stand with the IP address editor. No need to be rude or to not assume good faith. Discuss the content without editorializing and personalizing it to the editor. It's not hard. SageRad (talk) 15:38, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
While the suicide would seem to be a byproduct of the rape allegation, and not a Wikipedia article on it, we should not shrug this off. User:Wvdpanhuysen, probably Hamilton, made a valid point. That material seems excessively weighted per BLP and NPOV. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 00:52, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
I've asked for input on BLP/N. I agree that the "uncomfortable" contention is meritless. It's absurd to suggest that Wikipedia had any role in his suicide. But I do believe that the article in question may be out of balance. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 16:07, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
Had the anon raised the issue on the appropriate talk-page, I would have lauded them for it. Instead they posted this on WP:ANI, where I encountered it. The actions of the anon did not indicate a desire to rectify the situation, but an indictment of the community, using WP:ANI as a WP:SOAPBOX. Hence my terse reaction. WP:BLP issues can never entirely be avoided, given the ratio between users who know about WP:BLP, the regulars, and the sheer number of biographies on Wikipedia. Shit is bound to happen, and occasionally it will hit the fan. Kleuske (talk) 16:32, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
I'm not taking you to task. I was concerned that we not ignore the state of the article due to poor presentation, and now there are more editors working there so that has been effectuated. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 18:37, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
Most likely only that the edits were made by an English-speaking resident of France, not surprising since Hamilton was an English expatriate living in France for most of his life, and since the majority of the reporting concerning allegations by Flament, herself French, has thus far been in French media. General IzationTalk 03:00, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
I suggest moving this discussion to the article talk page. "Wikipedia's role" is a red herring, irrelevant, and pure speculation. The question is whether Hamilton's bio is weighted properly. At first glance my sense is that it is not, due to recentism and excessive weight given to scandals. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 14:41, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
I've posted on BLP/N. I recommend that interested editors improve the article, perhaps by fixing any neutrality issue. There's really no mega-issue here. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 16:09, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
We should remember the difference between correlation and causation here. If someone is well known, he will have a Wikipedia article. If there are a number of sources describing an allegation against him, they will be added to his article. For this reason, any well-known person who commits suicide after widespread publication of allegations will do so at about the same time that Wikipedians are adding mention of these to his article - even when there is no causal link and the person never read the article.
We should also bear in mind that by covering such matters, when appropriate sourcing exists, Wikipedia is just doing its job, and should not be ashamed to do its job, just as police and prosecutors and reporters are not ashamed to do their jobs even when they know that their efforts will drive some individuals to suicide. (There is a stronger case to be made that (in general) prosecutors should be deterred by such considerations since prison is so terrible and has so little scientific justification; were they to forget such matters, at least for a situation like this, perhaps it would all be for the best. But many potential victims would vehemently disagree!) Wnt (talk) 22:34, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
Regarding Wikipedia contributing to Hamilton's death, note that by design Wikipedia is second hand information. As editors, we may run the risk of having a distorted view of Wikipedia's adverse effect on a person who is the subject of a Wikipedia article, compared to the adverse effect of predominant news media. Also there is WP:BLP to help. --Bob K31416 (talk) 22:40, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
Any OTRS volunteer will tell you that people will often blame Wikipedia for allegations against them. This is rarely accurate - unsourced material is generally removed pretty quickly , and in this case the material definitely was sourced properly - but we do increase its prominence in some cases. I am not convinced en-wp had any role in the unfortunate suicide of Mr. Hamilton, the media profile of the allegations in France is unlikely to need any boosting here, but it would be as well for the Foundation to look carefully at whether the fr-wp article was compliant, as that seems to me to be a lot more forthright than our version. Guy (Help!) 23:25, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
Plus we have no direct evidence that he was even cognizant of the Wikipedia articles, either here or the French version. He had much going on in his life obviously. To my knowledge, no one said "I am the subject of this article." We are only surmising that. So this whole "Wikipedia killed him" meme is unsubstantiated. As far as the article itself is concerned, the central problem is that the subject and/or concerned editors failed to use the channels available to him prior to his death. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 15:56, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
Is WP:NOTDIR still valid?
Jimmy, back when Wikipedia was still running on steam, we had a fairly clear hierarchy of policies. WP:V and WP:NPOV together led to WP:RS, and that in turn to what is now termed WP:GNG. Arguments that X has an article so Y should as well, were routinely discounted per WP:NOTDIR.
The School Wars resulted in a de facto policy that all high schools are "inherently notable". That is, sources could be found, if people cared, even if the sources are all namechecks in little league match reports.
We now have a whole slew of subject-specific notability guidelines following a similar model, and I have noticed that there has been a change in how these are interpreted. When I first started sysoping a decade ago, failing a subject specific notability guideline was a valid deletion argument (albeit one that could be overridden by the presence of sufficient sources). Now, passing a subject-specific guideline is taken as a suitable rationale for keeping. So, a journal which is indexed, will probably not be deleted even if there is not one single source about that journal. The only descriptors are databases and descriptions supplied by the journal. The publisher may not be notable, it may even be predatory, but WP:ITSINDEXED has become a compelling argument to keep.
This is fine as long as we accept that WP:V is valid; that WP:NPOV can be ignored as long as we merely state that it exists (and noncontroversial information such as the editor); that WP:RS does not require any independent sources, only sources that are normally considered reliable - but we still have an issue with WP:NOTDIR.
For starters, if you accept the Wikipedian mantra that the project's goal is to present the sum of human knowledge free of charge to all the people of the world in their own native languages, this entire line about worrisome inclusionism overtaking the deletionist norms of old blows away like a cloud of acrid dust in the afternoon wind... So high schools are automatically included? So what? It means that we aren't stuck wasting hundreds or thousands of hours of volunteer time parsing sources and fighting over the merits or demerits of inclusion of this school and not that. So academic journals of more than a few years standing are kept? So what? It means that our readers attempting to assess whether Specific Journal A cited in one of our footnotes is trustworthy are likely to have a blue link to follow to assess the merit of the assertion backed by the citation. Where is the problem there? Whatever the problems with the inclusion boundaries of WP, these are two perfectly horrible examples to be making if one is attempting to gain sympathy for a more deletionist orientation. Talk about corporate spam about nothing businesses, or promotional crap about lawyers or PR reps, or self-serving gunk about politicians on the make if you want to gain sympathy for that orientation. A blue link for every high school on the planet seems a fine goal to me, and one that can ultimately be sourced out to boot. Similarly if we had an article on every academic or pseudo-academic journal on the planet, or every inhabited place, or every significant geological feature, or what have you — so much the better. Sum of human knowledge, and all of that... Carrite (talk) 05:24, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
To quote the most relevant sentence in WP:NOTDIR, "However, Wikipedia is not a directory of everything in the universe that exists or has existed." When it comes to schools, the commonly accepted working consensus is that the vast majority of primary schools are unlikely to be notable, while verified accredited degree-awarding high schools, colleges and universities are likely to be notable. If Wikipedia was an indiscriminate directory, then we would have a far more massive number of articles about primary schools, as well as a biography of me and an article about my house, all verifiable. Wikipedia should not be a directory of every blade of grass and every grain of sand on the beach, but gratefully accepting articles about high schools, parliamentarians, Olympic athletes, academic journals and the like is not at all a violation of WP:NOTDIR, but is instead a practice which actually improves this encyclopedia. Cullen328Let's discuss it05:54, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
That's missing the point I was trying to make, though. With schools, the fact is that you won't ever get one deleted because regardless of the quality of sources, there are people who will either dig new ones out or stretch the definition of WP:RS. So as far as high schools goes, there is a consensus that we are a directory and have entries that are based solely on directories.
Now back to the actual question. Numerous subject-specific guidelines are now being used not in the traditional sense that if X fails this guide then X is not likely to be notable, but instead in the sense that if X meets this guide then X is notable, regardless of the availability of sources. Journals is an example I gave, there are others. It appears to me that subject-specific guidelines agreed by special-interest editors have been used to overrule WP:GNG in numerous areas. Autobiographies of acadaemics, for example, are kept per WP:PROF even though the sources are "he has published X papers (source: subjects's list of papers)" and "he teaches at Y university (source: university directory)". DGG, whose opinion on notability I respect more than perhaps any other Wikipedian, opined, if I recall correctly, that he does not like WP:GNG and prefers subject specific guidelines.
A specific example: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Journal of Global Information Management. This is a journal with an impact factor of 0.303, so would be rejected as a source in any Wikipedia article. It is published by a nonn-notable publisher whose article we actually deleted. There are no reliable independent sources discussing the journal, we have substantiation only for the fact that it exists. It is a total failure of WP:GNG but passes the journal guideline because it is indexed and has an IF (even though the IF is laughable). If we keep this, then we are a directory of journals, just like we're a directory of high schools - indexed journals have become "inherently notable" even in the absence of sources about the journal.
For me, this is a real tension. If a subject fails WP:GNG due to lack of reliable independent sources, but passes a subject-specific guide and is kept on that basis, then WP:NOTDIRhas to be marked as historical, because it no longer reflects consensus. And that is why I ask the question. As it stands, a group of editors interested in, say, academic journals, can write a subject-specific notability guideline that has no reference at all to canonical policy, and use this to keep articles. This is fine as long as we are now a directory. Guy (Help!) 10:39, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
Well but can't we be a directory in some ways and for some things and not for others? Some of the examples given in WP:NOTDIRECTORY I can see us wanting to avoid -- "Sales catalogue" and "Genealogical entries" and so forth. On the other hand, being more or less a sort of directory of scientific journals -- even very obscure ones! -- and valid secondary-degree-granting institutions (even very obscure ones) could fit into our mission, because these are a little more "serious" or "scholarly" maybe, or otherwise considered a useful oexception to WP:NOTDIRECTORY, even if only worthwhile for the sake of completeness. Herostratus (talk) 23:42, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
WP:NOT is a deletionist's holiest totem, but I've never seen anything more in need of a harsh edit on Wikipedia. It's a mishmash of policies - some of the utmost importance, like "NOT#CENSORED", some that are utterly insignificant and misinterpreted in sabotagey ways. All points, good or bad, suffer from the stilted format of saying "Wikipedia is not..." rather than just being written like a policy from the top down. I also think that the roundabout expedient of writing a vanity notability guideline is unnecessary and undesirable. It makes more sense to make a rule simply that if a class is fully enumerable (we can list all the known members based on some reference), and most of the members are notable, and the class is notable, then we can treat all the members as notable in order to fill it out fully. (That falls a bit short of some kinds of "directory" in that a proper directory will take a stab at lists that are not enumerable or based on original criteria) Wnt (talk) 03:31, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
i hear Guy's concern and agree with it - subject-specific notability guidelines have indeed come to over-rule GNG. I ran into this on two articles about radio stations, which have the same setup as high schools per Wikipedia:Notability_(media)#Broadcast_media. If you have a license, you are notable. Gah. Frustrating in light of the goal to raise the N bar to keep out PROMO. Would be interested to hear User:DGG weigh in here. Once thing we could do, is make a list of topics where N guidelines have this kind of opt-in setup, and review it, and ones that still make sense we should add as exceptions to WP:NOT. Jytdog (talk) 06:48, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
For two principle specific problems indicated, there are particular reasons:
The Schools compromise was intended as just that, a compromise. Eight years ago, there were people who were inssting that every elementary school was notable, as a significant institution in its community, and, that with enough work in local sources, there was always sufficient published discussions, usually about construction and zoning, and ratings for the school, to meet the GNG standard. At the same time, there were people insisting that almost no high school would be notable, if truly discriminating sources were used, also according to the notability standard. AfD was dealing with over a dozen or so of these every day, and the results were not much better than random and depended on how much energy the participants had that week, and on the view of whoever did the closing. The compromise was to not make articles on elementary schools unless there were truly special factors for notability, but to make articles for all high schools, unless there was some real reason not to (such as inadequate evidence of real existence) Thecomproise has worked--there's now one of two afds on schools a month, and the scanty high school articles don't harm the encyclopedia nearly as much as the debates did.
For scientific journals, instead of total disagreement, there has been almost total agreement among the very few of us who work on this subject, At least in science, there is a commonly accepted criterion of importance, inclusion in Science Citation Index. It can certainly be argued that some journals not in it may nonetheless be notable, (usually for reasons of notorious publishing misbehavior), and that some journals at the bottom might not be really important except in special cases. But as a rough and ready separation of those worth including it works well enough. DGG ( talk ) 17:52, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
The Shirelles
Today a Wikipedia user moved without gaining any community consensus and also going against Wikipedia policy the song category for the Shirelles and several of their songs by removing "The" from its proper name usage. Their explanation for such a move is unacceptable. This message could have been addressed on the administrators page, but a continuous cycle of such behavior of radical moves concerning the particular user in question will not cease to exist through such matters of protocol, so by appeal it is brought here. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Early Whirly Birdie (talk • contribs) 22:01, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
Once you objected, Dicklyon opened a discussion on the matter. You are, of course, welcome to participate in that discussion. You could also open a discussion on the Shirelles category in the same way. That's how we do things, generally—someone takes an action, and if someone objects to it, it gets discussed further. No one's done anything disruptive here and no one needs to intervene. SeraphimbladeTalk to me20:54, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
I know that the "Top 25 Report" is outside the mainspace and that editors don't have to adhere to NPOV, but I take issue at how an editor is describing Steve Bannon in particular, calling him "racist, anti-Semitic, misogynistic". This is not only an extreme case of POV, but it is also slanderous and hurtful. I don't care (nor does it matter) what you or anyone else thinks of Bannon, in politics or as a person, but this slander is too extreme and hurtful for it to stay. --1990'sguy (talk) 04:20, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
(EC)I suppose that The Top 25 Report, because of its newsletter format, does not have to cite sources or write in the format "Sources x, y, and z consider Bannon to be racist, anti-Semitic, and misogynistic." That is a common opinion that is often expressed in the mainstream media, though probably not in the alt-right media. Just checking to be sure: Are you stating that Bannon is not racist, anti-Semitic, and misogynistic? Smallbones(smalltalk)05:00, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
Smallbones, this discussion is obviously reached its end, but just to be clear, whether Bannon is racist, anti-Semitic, etc. is completely besides the point and for a different discussion off-Wiki. Bob K31416 is correct in noting that BLP applies here. --1990'sguy (talk) 22:34, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
Re "It's perfectly accurate" – That is a conclusion of a Wikipedia editor about a contentious issue regarding a living person and a violation of WP:BLP, and should be redacted. See below. --Bob K31416 (talk) 09:56, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
The item may be a violation of WP:BLP, which applies to all pages in Wikipedia. Here are some excerpts from that policy.
"Editors must take particular care when adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page."
"Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion.[1] Users who persistently or egregiously violate this policy may be blocked from editing."
"This policy applies to any living person mentioned in a BLP, whether or not that person is the subject of the article, and to material about living persons in other articles and on other pages, including talk pages.[2]"
Manning naming dispute, 16 October 2013: "The biographies of living persons policy applies to all references to living persons throughout Wikipedia, including the titles of articles and pages and all other portions of any page."
Please see 10 of Breitbart's most incendiary headlines. Bannon was in charge of the company that produced those headlines. He could have stopped the printing of that garbage but didn't. I don't think anybody should be censored who is just stating the obvious. It is just not "Contentious material" to say that Bannon holds certain views. Smallbones(smalltalk)10:12, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
Whilst I wouldn't piss on Bannon if he was on fire, BLP does apply, so how about this - change "the racist, anti-Semitic, misogynistic head of Breitbart News" to "the head of the racist, anti-Semitic, misogynistic Breitbart News". Voila! No BLP issue. Black Kite (talk)10:45, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
Still better, when a claim is this contentious and negative, to actually site the source in the claim, not just in footnotes. "...which has been called racist, anti-Semitics, and misogynistic by the New York Times and other major media sources like the BBC, NBC News, etc." The point here is to maintain clarity for the reader that Wikipedia itself is not taking an editorial line.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:32, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
Yes, clarity is much needed on that page. Many readers, including myself at first, thought that Wikipedia was taking an editorial stance in that page. I like Jimbo's suggestion, and we should also consider adding a tag at the top informing the reader that the views expressed on that page are not Wikipedia's stances. --1990'sguy (talk) 19:46, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
I tried to find where the NY Times called Breitbart that and it looks like they didn't, but rather reported that critics called Breitbart that. For example,
"Critics, including some conservatives formerly associated with it, have denounced Breitbart in its current incarnation as a hate site steeped in misogyny, homophobia, transphobia, white nationalism and anti-Semitism."[25]
So the better modification along the lines of what you're suggesting might be, "...which has been called racist, anti-Semitic, and misogynistic by critics." --Bob K31416 (talk) 19:58, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
First, like many people watching where I was overseas, I admit I was shocked by the exceptionally high bar put before one candidate and the exceptionally low bar put before the other candidate. It appeared much of the media got itself into knots trying to differentiate between balance, objectivity, neutrality, and crucially, truth. We cannot continue the old paradigm — let’s say like over global warming — where 99.9% of the empirical scientific evidence is given equal play with the tiny minority of deniers. I learned long ago, covering the ethnic cleansing and genocide in Bosnia, never to equate victim with aggressor, never to create a false moral or factual equivalence, because then you are an accomplice to the most unspeakable crimes and consequences. I believe in being truthful, not neutral. And I believe we must stop banalizing the truth.
”
Two things about this, which I would ask editors to understand:
It's true.
It has nothing, almost literally nothing, to do with what we are doing here. If you think it does, you are IMO confused.
We are not Christiane Amanpour. We do want to be anything like Christiane Amanpour, not even little bit. We are not here to point who the good guys and bad guys are. We are not reporters -- not investigative reporters, and not even straight-news reporters.
The bar for calling someone a misogynist, anti-Semite, racist, or anything scurrilous of that type, should be high, and meet one of these two criteria:
The person himself admits to it and calls himself that, or
Any disinterested, informed, and sane reasonable person, being truthful, would be forced to vouchsafe that it's accurate.
Note the second point. It doesn't say "You and everyone down at the bowling alley" or "Everyone you talk to on Facebook" or anything else of the sort. It doesn't say "a lot of people" or "most people" or "everyone who reads the Times" or "who went to college" or whatever.
As to "Has been claimed by some to be", this is something you want to be very careful with. Many notable people have enemies. Enemies call names. So what.
This doesn't mean we have to be stupid. Adolph Hitler easily meets the reasonable man standard to be called an anti-Semite and so we can. Bannon? Be realistic -- not even close, not even within a mile of being close. I have no use for Bannon, but is he an admitted anti-Semite? He's not. Would any reasonable man have to see that he's a proven anti-Semite? Phhht. You have a couple of Uncle-Dwight-at-the-dinner-table type remarks, and inference at a remove from his editing activities. Let's just say there are many possible explanations for all this. Is he probably actually an anti-Semite? I have my own personal opinion on that, but the Wikipedia is not the place for speculation about stuff like that. "Is probably actually" is not our standard for allowing libel.
Bannon is too notable and important for most anything we say here to cause him any harm or even mild distress. Tempers are high right now. So I wouldn't lose sleep over this particular incident. But it's not a slope we want to start sliding down IMO. Herostratus (talk) 21:46, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
It would be a better idea to allow people to obtain compensation in a useful medium of exchange, rather than a volatile commodity the main purposes of which in practice are to facilitate easier illegal transactions and to allow speculators and scammers to prey on people looking to get rich quick. --47.138.163.230 (talk) 01:50, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
Such a proposal risks turning all editors into "paid editors". In theory, editors can be paid from an impartial source -- preferably a basic income, which liberates all mankind to pursue intellectual, artistic, and monastic pursuits. Barring that, an agency which makes minimal certification that Wikipedia work is being done. But when they put out the tip jar to whore for every anonymous nickel that comes their way, editors are no longer writing for the benefit of all, but for the pleasure of whoever is paying them the most. Wnt (talk) 13:02, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
Hmmm, so if I understand correctly you would like the WMF to pay editors a small amount per edit. This makes some sense, but it has some drawbacks also. The first thing, obviously, is that some people might edit more but not better to get the reward. A related issue is that people are more desperate for cash in some countries (indeed, even in some U.S. states) than others -- if you pay everyone the same per edit, then a lot of folks will be outraged about some Pakistanis who patrol for commas to fix sixteen hours a day; but if you pay Americans more, that will be seen as outrageous chauvinism (not to mention expensive -- who hires Americans?) I think that some of these problems might be reduced by moving a bit closer to the basic minimum income model, i.e. WMF would pay all "active editors in good standing" a low fixed stipend. The money would not be much and the editing required would not go beyond what an interested hobbyist does in his off time. It might be low enough that editors in wealthier countries simply cash it back to WMF, but now they could style themselves as donors; others might justify that it (perhaps) pays for the internet connection. There would still be an issue with sock puppetry, but it would be harder (and not especially worthwhile) to collect multiple checks via intermediaries. There would still be a tendency to pull in a lot more "Third World" editors this way and it would draw bitter complaints, but hopefully not with quite as much foundation, and WMF does want to broaden its user base, if Wikipedia actually remains legal to read in more than a few countries. And of course limiting the amount also would make the program cheaper. Can you do it? Maybe. Wnt (talk) 16:01, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
No. I want WMF to enable value exchange as a reward for quality contributions or merit. I want WMF to do it before others do, so that the editing process is not hijacked. If we visit a market and pay with fake money such as wikilove messages the product will always be inferior to one in which something valuable is exchanged. This is why cryptocurrencies will reshape internet media. They will be the reward for users in front of their devices for whatever outcome we collectively seek. That is how cash works. Social media will use them to filter quality content and so if Wikipedia doesn't, eyeballs will leave us. This is our new paradigm. Lets play with the genie before it plays us. - Shiftchange (talk) 03:15, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
Gosh, I believe I couldn't possibly disagree more. To make this more obvious to you, suppose a major newspaper took the same approach: rather than hiring journalists, they would simply set up a marketplace so that the journalists could sell their services to the highest bidder. What kind of stories do you think major companies and authoritarian governments would be happy to sponsor? But even though that part is obvious, you should observe that another premise of your argument is being quite obviously demonstrated to be untrue every day. "That is how cash works. Social media will use them to filter quality content and so if Wikipedia doesn't, eyeballs will leave us." Wikipedia has grown to be vastly popular precisely because our model does not encourage authors to chase eyeballs with clickbait and controversy. Think about that, as it is perhaps a bit paradoxical: the way to have a huge audience in the long run, is to care very little about inflating page views in the short run. Why? Because at the end of the way, while people may end up clicking on a tempting headline of "sharable content" on social media, they find it unsatisfying and seek out quality instead.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:15, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
I don't mean to be disrespectful nor argumentative but that analogy isn't valid because we don't conduct our business as a hierarchy. I'm talking about peer to peer reward. I just want the best way to pat my fellow contributor on the back with a gracious thank you. The best way to do that has now been optimised and proven. If we maladapt there is risk of forking and obsolescence. Isn't it possible our model will be refined upon by others through greater exchange of value mechanisms, namely cryptocurrencies such as bitcoin? I see social media improving this way leaving us behind. - Shiftchange (talk) 07:24, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
Shiftchange, your ideas are spectacularly out-of-touch with reality. I would say the probability is approaching certainty that if you actually did try to "pat your fellow contributors on the back" by offering them payments you'd cause such offence you'd be blocked for incivility, and if the WMF were to try to introduce such a scheme it would cause such an exodus of editors that Wikipedia and its sister projects would collapse altogether, quite aside from the disastrous impact on Wikipedia's credibility such a scheme would inevitably cause. And I say that as someone near the top of both WP:WBFAN and WP:WBE, presumably the two primary metrics you intend to use to measure "quality contributions", and thus one of the people who'd have most to gain from such a system. ‑ Iridescent16:37, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
@Wnt, if you want to trust the WMF with your bank account details—which would presumably be necessary in order to pay your proposed basic income, since even if they have nothing to hide most people aren't going to want the unwanted attention from the authorities that would come if they suddenly started conducting transactions in bitcoin—you have considerably more confidence in their security than I do. ‑ Iridescent16:50, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
I was not aware of fear of totalitarianism inhibiting bitcoin transactions, but the solution for WMF would seem obvious: they could send a physical check as often as it amounts to enough money to be worth cashing. Even if they offered a buck or two bonus for electronic payments to offset the cost of printing, checking and mail, some Luddites here, myself included, would likely turn it down for the reasons you mention. Alternatively, they might send out some kind of cash card unlinked to an account (though somehow the finance industry schemers usually figure out a way to encumber those with absurd fees); these might be of relevance to users without ready resort to banking. Wnt (talk) 22:37, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
@Shiftchange: It might be possible to pursue your idea via a different route. Wikipedia edits might be considered "proof of work" as the basis of a cryptocurrency scheme. There are many alternatives to Bitcoin, typically worth much less, but with a value that can increase per publicity. A Wikipedia-backed cryptocurrency would expect unusual publicity, hence unusual value. The catch is that launching a cryptocurrency is no easy feat; it requires a deep understanding of the dark illusionism by which nations and peoples are ruled. An additional technical issue is that a universal, refereeless standard of a "meaningful edit in good standing" would be needed to prevent abusers from inundating the 'pedia with spam while diluting the currency to zero. Wnt (talk) 13:46, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
By God you could develop an entire scale economy of living wage tour guides and take school vouchers for semantic dronebot rides through the tower of WonkiBabel. ^^SashiRolls (talk) 22:52, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
Hi Jimbo,
I am sorry to take your precious time. I would like just to ask you is that normal for Wikipedia to have such offensive article [26][27] madding "Humor" abuses, offences, and mockery about Macedonians and the state Republic of Macedonia, and not only offending Macedonians but Greeks, as well. Can someone, please, delete or remove that harassment site. Can anyone ban creators of that site. Thanks! Regards! 77.234.44.147 (talk) 15:54, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
The IP raises an excellent point. This is a "humorous" article in Wikipedia space on the Serbo-Croat Wikipedia, which unless I've missed some incredibly subtle humour (unlikely, knowing the relationship between the countries) is basically an insulting screed against Macedonia and Macedonians. Apparently the country only exists "because of a conspiracy between the United Nations in cooperation with the Wikimedia Foundation", the inhabitants are mostly overweight, and their most famous athlete is a dog. The article is unsurprisingly regularly vandalised, but is restored and protected by sh.wiki admins. Someone with the appropriate permissions needs to get this gone, and have a wor with the admins involved. Black Kite (talk)17:19, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
Hi, I agree and I would also add here national symbol insults involved, as on national coat of arms (Greek one), national flag (modified war Japanese flag), national anthem (allegedly "bread and chutney"), national motto(allegedly "killing"!!??), name o the people ("Janevistanians"), than capital of the state (allegedly Greek city of Thessaloniki), etc. For example national macedonian motto contain a threat "You will be killed",and so on. Libertarian Macedonian (talk) 20:47, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
So Macedonian are able to produce and export only chutney, and nothing else as "National anthem "Bread and chutney" suggests Macedonian were good only for making paper and potato(s)? All Janevistanians (Macedonians) were copies of Igor Janev?? Pollution in Macedonian city of Delcevo was that bad, so I.J. is nervous? Japanese flag suggesting Japanese fighting dogs? Or, between the lines of translation, all Macedonians were "Dogs of the war"??77.234.45.153 (talk) 12:01, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
I can't read any of it and for some reason Google Translate appears down from here at the moment. So I can only comment on the principle, which is really all the matters here. There is no reason for any offensive humor to exist in any place on any Wikimedia projects at any time. This is always true, but especially true in areas and places that have to to with insults on national cultures in parts of the world where sensitivities due to past and recent conflict is high.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:16, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
The Wikilink is sh:User:Orijentolog/Janevistan; it's a user's private subpage. When you think about the magnitude of abuses by administrators on many of the small wikis who block would-be editors and impose bias in article space, I think that it would be absolutely a terrible precedent to go after the Serbo-Croatian Wiki because they don't censor user pages according to American standards of political correctness. Their welcome message to me as a user says that you can post on some of their forums in English, and you are free to mount the bully pulpit if you want, but please, don't go beyond that. Wnt (talk) 22:39, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
Wnt, as usual on this and similar issues, you are wrong. Wikipedia need not tolerate nasty behavior, ever. "American standards of political correctness" is a silly thing to say in this context. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, worldwide. The values of Wikipedia are universal.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:42, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
In may opinion, Wikipedia should apply some universally accepted standards. Insults on national symbols are prohibited in every state in the world and in the International Law. At least Wiki rules should apply [28]. Furthermore, there were threats such as "You will be killed" (Geslo: "Bićeš ubijen!")that were absolutely unacceptable. I should also mention that after protest of Macedonian administrator [29]] Ehrlich91, that hate speach was clearly insult to the all Macedonians, nothing happened. Regards. Libertarian Macedonian (talk) 23:30, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
"Insults on national symbols are prohibited in every state in the world and in the international law" - this is 100% false and 100% irrelevant.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:40, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
Dear Jimmy, whatever you decide is fine with me. If this admins. on sh.wiki think that Macedonians are fat and stupid or primitive its ok. Thank you for your precious time. Forgive me for any inconvenience. Best wishes!Libertarian Macedonian (talk) 23:48, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
Nope. Burning is considered the appropriate mechanism for disposal of old and damaged flags. The Boy Scouts of America burn more flags than all the Muslims in the world combined. Guy (Help!) 00:52, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
Flag desecration in the United States was formerly banned by unconstitutional legislation. The Supreme Court has upheld not merely the physical act of burning a flag but the right to deface and destroy it as an expression of personal contempt or for any other reason. This wise ruling has, incidentally, caused flag desecration to go from being frequent national news to something that is almost unheard of, because without the prosecutions, people simply don't care - and if they don't care, there is little reason to bother. Wnt (talk) 12:42, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
As for the Flag of Vergina Sun /Alexander the Grate Flag (in "Janevistan" presented under label: "Coat of Arms", as a provocation to Macedonians), it should be remembered that Greece because of that Flag started the catastrophic Trade War against Macedonia in 1994 and 1995, and reported that as "flagrant violation of the international law" to the UN Security Council. During that painful period for Macedonia, as a result of the trade blockade and sanctions introduced by Greece state, salaries and wages in Macedonia were fallen to the level of less than 50 dollars per month! Relations between the to state were than closest to the war, and relations didn't normalize until Macedonia had accepted to change its Flag (Flag of Vergina Sun). Now, sh.wikipedia editors, made mockery for the period of deepest economic crises in Macedonian history, by deliberately putting Vergina Sun Flag in the place "Coat of Arms" of Macedonia/Janevistan! Such accusations of stealing national symbols from other states, are taken very seriously both in Macedonia and in Greece. Further, in the text you may found that Macedonian were constantly stealing other people symbols (presented there in the oppositional form: "neighbors had stolen Macedonian symbols") and Macedonian state always "destroyed" other cultures, operating on principle (according to sh.wiki editors): "Demolish and bury it" (sh."sruši i zakopaj")! Thanks!5.45.62.149 (talk) 11:58, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
Plus, there is no science in Macedonia (sh. "Istorijska nauka makedonologija je danas zvanično poznata i kao arheologija.") The only science in the country is digging in the past!? So the conclusion for reader should be that, according to SH., there is/was no science or scientists in the Republic of Macedonia, except experts for rewriting and falsifying history!?
Or this "varvarina koji su hteli da zatru sve makedonsko, pa su joj pokrali jezik, ime, nacionalne simbole i svetske velikane", basically all Macedonian culture was stolen by Barbarians, so there is no now any Culture at all!?5.45.62.166 (talk) 05:43, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
Jimbo was 100% correct when stating that national symbols were not protected by the International Law ("Insults on national symbols are prohibited in every state in the world and in the international law" - this is 100% false). Also, State names cannot be the subject of forgery or theft (stealing), and states cannot be deprived from their names or externally (and internally) imposed on them, and state name as such couldn’t affect the different historical interpretation. States do not have exclusive rights over the state names, and couldn’t be subject to the imposition of negotiations on that type of matters , even by the UN. What was fanny to me in the “Janevistan”, but probably not to the Macedonians, was that allegedly leading ideologist teaches Macedonians that “Macedonian world” is “Good” one and surrounded by Evil or “non-Macedonian world”, but that “Evil” (or non-Macedonians) must exist beside Macedonians (“Good”) because other vise Macedonians wouldn’t be able (presumably as higher beings) to define their identity or themselves! According to sh. Editors, creator of this type of Racist ideology was Igor Janev (and that is obviously not only untruth, but compete creation of sh. Editors in attempt to humiliate people in Macedonia and describe Igor Janev as a Nazi nationalist/Fascist). Actually the message was suppose to be (understood) in satiric opposite modus, aiming to say that the only evil people in the World, with Nazi ideology, were Macedonians. Well, seems to me sh.editors miss the point there and actually described themselves as such nationalists.5.45.62.166 (talk) 08:34, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
Still, US is well-known for large percentage of cases involving personal offences. But to say: country only exists "because of a conspiracy between the United Nations in cooperation with the Wikimedia Foundation" is a more serious situation. At least in Balkan countries you may not go with these defamations, unless you are prepared to pay a large amount of money. Libertarian Macedonian (talk) 01:13, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
Mr. Wales, I frankly don't see much meaning in your statement that "Wikipedia need not ever tolerate nasty behavior." There are a wide range of things that go on here that can be considered "nasty", but what do you take action against? I would suggest that admins on small wikis who ban people without explanation or for writing contrary to the Official POV would be far "nastier" than someone who has some rude national humor on a user page. I think that Polish jokes and Russian reversals and even more mean-spirited efforts like Life of Brian or the 'fatface' actors in Austin Powers have some legitimate place in culture. When you act to say that small wikis must never permit users to transgress your boundaries of politeness while failing to take such invasive action where substantive article content bias issues are concerned, you send a powerful message that Wikipedia is an entertainment product meant not to offend rather than one whose educational agenda is foremost. Wnt (talk) 12:32, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
Mr. Wnt, have you read that article? Please do so. You will see unseen offences with the death threats and defamations in each sentence of Janevistan. It shows the pattern of nasty and unlawful behavior, contrary to the rules of conduct for internet media. If you read conversation between Mac. admin. and SH. admin. you will see that SH.Wiki admin (O.C.Ripper) admits wrongdoing but is reluctant to do anything abuot it! Still, I am glad to report that one of co-creators of Janevistan (i.e. User:Kolega2357) was finally banned from editing by Wikimedia Foundation [30], for other reasons (Wikimedia Foundation Block: Disruptive and superfluous edits).5.45.62.131 (talk) 14:41, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
User Kolega2357 was been previously banned forever at sr. wiki under different name[31], and than sr.admins., after about one year, allowed him to have a new (present) name i.e. Kolega2357.178.222.77.248 (talk) 04:00, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
P.S. My advise to Jimmy is to contact the Wikimedia Foundation - Support - Safety, just to have a proper information about legal aspects of the above mentioned offenses.Libertarian Macedonian (talk) 01:30, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
If I may add here that the banned user of SH.Wiki Kolega2357[32] was also involved in fabrication of famous "Hoax" META story about Igor Janev, claiming that he does not exist [33]. That was accepted as a "truth" somewhere. But facts apparently speak for themselves [34].77.234.45.133 (talk) 15:41, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
It appears on sh.wiki like a regular article [38] not just a subpage, when you press search button. I find interesting that the actual creator of the page consider that person as his fan[39]. See list of fans in Orjentolog list (left in Babylon).Looks to me like a stalker.5.45.62.130 (talk) 12:13, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
SH.Wikipedia is a minor small Wiki with a really bad reputation. It only makes copies from Serbian and Croatian Wikipedia. In many occasions there were formal actions from both Serbian and Croatian Wikies to close that "Serbo-Croatian Wiki", but unfortunately with no success. People there are completely incompetent and irresponsible. Actually, Serbo-Croatian language doesn't really exist any more. So all editors expelled from Serbian and Croatian Wikipedia are now there. In one word so called "Serbo-Croatian Wiki", is the embarrassment for Wikipedia in general.77.234.40.180 (talk) 13:42, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
Actually, there is quite a funny joke there. Looking at the Google Translate for the page I saw nothing but harmless drollery (to use, nostalgically, the word now rendered as "trolling", from a more civilized time when creative expression was valued). But one of their big jokes is that every major feat in Macedonian culture was performed by Igor Janev. I found an article about him at hr:Igor_Janev, which lists 13 other Wikis, including the Macedonian and the Serbian, which have similar articles; but our article on en.wikipedia has been deleted as a "blatant hoax", and 'salted' so that no one can restart it.
If Wikipedia wants to work on improving its reputation, it'd be nice to have a better way of spreading the word (or debating the issue) about hoaxes, especially BLP hoaxes, between the different language Wikipedias. Wnt (talk) 15:37, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
Admins. can always restart the BLP on Him, on the other hand He already have enough BLP in other languages. The idea on harmonization of inter-wiki policies is a good one. Someone cannot be celebrity on some Wikies and hoax on others. The article on Him was never salted on Greek Wiki, and that's surprises me. Or maybe not?5.45.62.166 (talk) 09:00, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
And what about eng.wiki? Based on apparently falsified and incomplete fact and stories about Igor Janev on META and elsewhere, his name, as such, became the subject of systematic disgracing and humiliation trough process of name eradication and termination on eng.wiki, as a spam. Was that in accordance with the rule of civility you claim to preserve here, or perhaps his rights, particularly not to be humiliated and insulted or offended, were breached?79.101.133.198 (talk) 10:03, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
And everyone who defended his name or disagreed with spam or hoax qualification(s) and insults was treated as sock(s) or vandal(s), here.79.101.133.198 (talk) 10:34, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
In my opinion, the Hoax or spam story was a fake and manipulation at META and even stupid. Particularly to report on META "It was recently discovered in dewp that the article about "Igor Janev" was a fake. They could saw Google Scholar [40]. If article about him was a "blatant hoax" it would had been immediately removed on Macedonian Wikipedia and Serbian Wikipedia. But that was not the case.77.234.45.133 (talk) 15:53, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
As for trolling, I don't see anything funny by describing Macedonians as a wild primitive savages constantly attacking other people and countries with shadow "Tsar" Igor Janev, an extremist, nationalist and expansionist. Maybe he is not an A. Einstein, but he gave some notable contribution to the Macedonian science.77.234.45.133 (talk) 16:38, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
The way you describe this user subpage makes me wonder if Google Translate cuts out all the good stuff. Meanwhile, I notice that Commons deleted a number of illustrations that were once part of it, on the rationale that they were posted without permission of their true author -- Igor Janev. :) [41]Wnt (talk) 17:18, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
I don't know details, but I presume that these illustrations would require that I.J. personally send approvals for OTRS, and I don't think he would ever act personally on such matters. Actually what I learned observing net, he never uses Twitter, Facebook, or any other social nets.77.234.45.133 (talk) 17:36, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
Ok, now I found it. These illustrations are photo's of I.J. fighting dog, that is, according to sh.wiki the only "Fauna" in Macedonia. The only sport in Janevistan or Macedonia is dog fighting, and the winner in dog fights is always his dog, and so on.. (never-ending nonsenses). The good stuff? Under label "Government" (sh./mk. "Vlada") goes "Tsar (in exile)" (sh. Car- Igor Janev (u izgnanstvu)), basically suggesting that person from another country rules and runs the government in Macedonia. And so on...
Macedonians were his fighting dogs!? "Dogs of the war"?
Proposal for the deletion of photo's of I.J.'s dog was initiated by the creator of "Janevistan", namely sh. User:Orjentolog! Apparently user "Orjentolog" was sickly obsessed by Igor Janev, just as previously sh. User:Kolega2357 was (and perhaps both were stalking him?).77.234.45.149 (talk) 20:34, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
Finlay, and very provocative to the Greek state is the catastrophic suggestion that "temporary occupied" Greek city of Thessaloniki (sh. "Solun" (under Capital label)) the "capital" of Janevistan should be retaken - liberated (presumably by Macedonian army, implied by sh. editors) and that it was allegedly plan of Janevistanian or Macedonian government! These inflammatory crazy nonsenses are of very sensitive nature in Balkans and should not be tolerated on any Wikipedia, regardless of the tipe of the site. Balkan countries had enough wars in the past, and to post such diabolic suggestion for war between Greece and Macedonia is not a joke, not a humor at all, nor ordinary trolling. That site should definitely be deleted and sh. admins. blocked.77.234.45.151 (talk) 23:54, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
Dear Jimmy, make that abomination of sh. site vanish ones and for all. This is an embracement for Wikipedia. I ask myself here are there any limits for editors or administraotrs there, or more generally on Wikipedia as an Encyclopedia, before any intervention by management or people governing Wikipedia? Where are the boundaries here? Let me add my impression about that site. In the first sentence of "Janevistan" the editors were mocking about Macedonian Constitution that allegedly define the Macedonian territory as area of Eastern Europe, most of Africa and Asia, accusing and mocking the creators of the Macedonian Constitution for irredentism and expansionist aspirations embedded in the highest legal document. Let me remind everyone here, just for information, that there are a provisions (amendments to Macedonian Constitution, made on January 6, 1992.) asserting that of Republic Macedonia "has no territorial claims against any neighboring states". The policy of the Republic of Macedonia was peaceful and never with aspirations toward any territories of other countries. And by the way, I don't see here anybody from sh.wikipedia to defend themselves! I assume they already saw these discussion suggesting not only the removal of insulting abomination, but the meaningful ideas proposing to shutdown sh. project, as such. Remaining respectful,Risto Nikovski (talk) 02:33, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
Well, don't get very upset. This is not the only master peace at the Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia. One should give the Nobel prize for peace to the creators of that site. As for Igor Janev such articles only busted his popularity in Macedonia and beyond. And Wikipedia also benefited perhaps because now, after Janevistan, more than 5% of people in Macedonia read Wikipedia. All sins will be forgiven!178.223.24.207 (talk) 13:55, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
I wonder, about the "Name issue" of the Republic of Macedonia, how would USA behave if the United Nations try to impose UN membership designation "Former British colony", replacing the official name USA. Now, as you know reference for the Republic of Macedonia in UN is "the Former Yugoslav republic of Macedonia" (FYROM)! I guess your answer would be that US will never become a member of any international organization if it have to accept "Former British colony" for the provisional name or reference for the USA in international organization(s).79.101.187.172 (talk) 11:38, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
Greek allegation that the name of the applicant state implies "territorial claims" has no legal significance and grounds. The name of a state, which is a subject of that state’s domestic jurisdiction (since every state naturally has an inherent right to a name), does not create international legal rights for the state that adopts the name, nor does it impose legal obligations on other states. Clearly, the name does not have an impact on the territorial rights of states.Risto Nikovski (talk) 01:49, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
How about the basic policy and the rule of civility enshrined in the basic (legal) document(s) of Wikipedia/Wikimedia. Should this rule and the other basic rules be honored and protected? Or, just everyone can do or say whatever he/she/they like(s)?79.101.133.198 (talk) 06:09, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
Failure to act in the case of Janevistan is also a crucial decision. Janevstan per se should be interpreted as the negative and terrible precedent in violating of the standards of Encyclopedia. Failure to act in this case my lead to other similar cases were people and nations could be treated in Wikies without dignity and respect.79.101.133.198 (talk) 11:36, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
Right now, there is an ongoing request to remove one (of two) sh. administrator for the massive abuse of rights and harassment on SH. Wikipedia (i.e admin. Edgar Allan Poe) [46]. The procedure for removal of the administrator was initiated by another sh.Wiki user "Vujkovica brdo" (https://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korisnik:Vujkovica_brdo). As everyone can understand from the voting scores, the two administrators (namely Edgar Allan Poe and O.C. Ripper) have joined together and, with the user "Orjentolog" (notorious creator[47] of the "Janevistan") outvoted their colleague user "Vujkovica brdo" and made the mockery of the entire process! Recently, another user from sh.Wiki "Seiya" (https://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korisnik:Seiya) also left that Wikipedia unsatisfied with the behavior there.79.101.187.172 (talk) 00:12, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
It was said in the discussion that harassment of administrator Edgar Allan Poe in long period of time left virtually no wiki. standards/rules here, whatsoever.79.101.187.172 (talk) 00:25, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
Just to give you an idea of the language in use there, user "Orjentolog" said in the comment of the page (→Za: Готов је!) or in English: "He is finished!" [48].93.87.214.23 (talk) 03:34, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
On "Janevistan" history page you may find even worse page comments (such as "Victims of Assassination" Category, and more similar stuff).93.87.214.23 (talk) 04:31, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
Not to forget plagiarism on Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia, were thousands of copies were directly taken (copy-paste) from ether Serbian Wikipedia or Croatian Wikipedia, or to put it in different way, probably more than 90 % of all articles were plagiarism.178.223.39.198 (talk) 13:30, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
Plagiarism is the form of Vandalism (sometimes and somewhere crime / misdemeanor), and people who practice that on the regular basis and massive scale, as some sh.editors, should be treated as Vandals.178.223.39.198 (talk) 16:26, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
So instead of punishing real vandals Fake Meta Affair creators few years ago (2013) [49] (users from Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia), Igor Janev (article) had been punished by being salted on English Wikipedia and few other Wikis.178.223.21.243 (talk) 13:07, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
Real question here may be put in the form: can racist-alike offences / insults or even threats be allowed in the Wiki space (in general), even on subpages or not? SH. editors cannot defend their site "Janevistan" by saying "that was just a subpage "humor", justifying everything by that fact. Clearly, Wikipedia should apply some universally accepted standards and take care about the economy of its space (Wiki space is not infinite). Does the intervention of WMF banning Kolega2357 (see above, disruptive and superfluous edits, basis for banning) constitute a good precedent for a similar intervention of (any) Wiki authority to remove racist-alike site(s) and preserve the (scarce) Wiki space? Some Thoughts?77.46.207.9 (talk) 15:27, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
I found one more deadly threat by user:Orjentolog [54] directed to Igor Janev, see Orijentolog (Razgovor | doprinosi) "(likvidirali su čoveka!)" or in Eng. translation "Man has been assassinated!"!! These things goes far, far beyond the normal functioning of Encyclopedia. Not only that "Janevistan" should be deleted, but user:Orjentolog should be banned on a permanent term!77.46.207.9 (talk) 00:06, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
Further, to establish motives for the site, what I learned from the communication between sh.user Orjentolog with sh.user Seiya was that there was a plan to create mess with Janevistan (Feb. 5. 2016, Izmjena od 13:21, 5 februar 2016)[55]. User Seiya said to User Orjentolog: "Ori, ti si potpuno upropastio makedonsko-srpskohrvatske odnose! Da nije Makedonija napustila SFRJ još 1991., napustila bi ju danas, nakon ovoga. Zar ti nije već dovoljno zategnuta situacija na Balkanu sa svim ovim izbjeglicama, ti još hoćeš malo dodatno zapapriti i makedonskim ratom? Čuvaj se! Nemoj ići nigdje predaleko na jug!" shortly translated: "You destroyed our relations with Macedonians. Do you want war with Macedonia?....If Macedonia had not left the Yugoslavia in 1991, that would happend today! ...Beware! Do not go to far on South." Orjentolog answered, something like " I give a damn". As I can see and conclude, some kids or students were playing war games, for fun! And META took their statements seriously 3 years ago!77.46.207.9 (talk) 01:24, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
Before that statement [56] i.e. (“Ori, ti si potpuno upropastio makedonsko-srpskohrvatske odnose! Da nije Makedonija napustila SFRJ još 1991., napustila bi ju danas, nakon ovoga. Zar ti nije već dovoljno zategnuta situacija na Balkanu sa svim ovim izbjeglicama, ti još hoćeš malo dodatno zapapriti i makedonskim ratom? Čuvaj se! Nemoj ići nigdje predaleko na jug! Kad krenu bombe po tvojem predgrađu, nemoj mene uvlačiti u to! Svi imaju tu crno na bijelo da sam ja po pitanju članka glasovao "za"! Македонија е наш пријател”)(please use Google Translate here), sh. administrator Edgar Allan Poe said “ali, jesu bar dobri obavještajci?” or like “Do they have a good intel?”/or: Do we have the good intelligence. So they all were playing a spy game(s) for fun or amusement.77.234.45.154 (talk) 10:02, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
Kolega2357 was already under scrutiny about META case in 2013.(Igor Janev) on sr.wiki(patrolling rights case) [57], and stated there: „Ne znam ja o kakvim ti to izmjenama govoriš ali iza afere Janev ko zna ko stoji ja sigurno ne jer ne znam makedonski a to svi znaju.“ shortly translated: I am not behind that Affair. (Confessing there was Affair!!). Despite that statement Kolega2357 did not got patrolling rights, probably because no one believed him.93.86.239.208 (talk) 10:14, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
Dear Jimmy, I hope that you will not ignore me or my advise. In light of presented proves above, you should clear the name of Igor Janev, restart art. on him i.e.Igor Janev, and instruct someone to ask admins. on SH.Wikipedia, in good will, to remove the Janevistan site. No further measures are necessary, such as blocking or banning. Thank you for your patience and time. Remaining respectful.Risto Nikovski (talk) 04:35, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
and user who proposed the deletion was blocked to unlimited period of time [61]. Someone should delete the site, block creator of Janevistan (Korisnik:Orijentolog)and remove admin. rights to Edgar Allan Poe. That is why the Stewards exist!93.87.154.148 (talk) 19:17, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
plus, admins. on sh.wiki give a damn about discussion we have here on Jimbo Talk Page. In his comment admin. Edgar said: "Ovaj se baš namjerio na tebe x'D" [62], or "This one creates The X-Files" (as Explanation for deletion of Template for deletion of Janevistan).93.87.154.148 (talk) 19:26, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
So we got the answer from sh.admin Edgar Allan Poe about "ARTICLE" : "I would kindly ask you to stop adding deletion requests to the page in question; it is clearly a humorous article not intended to insult anyone or anything, as is stated on the top of the page. There is no reason to delete it "--Biljezim se sa štovanjem,Poe 23:35, 27 novembar 2016"[64]! No comment.178.222.60.128 (talk) 02:35, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
And administrator Edgar Allan Poe, in violation of rules, protected Talk page of Libertarian Macedonian [65] so that even Libertarian Macedonian cannot make comments/edits on its own Talk Page![66]212.200.205.158 (talk) 11:05, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
Maybe not a foolish attempt. Wiki is a legal person and have some legal responsibilities! Besides that would have some Media impact in public. 178.222.77.248 (talk) 13:35, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
At least, should someone have a word with administrator(s) on sh.wiki? As I understood from their internal communication chief admin. O.C.Ripper is now willing to delete that site. That may resolve the entire problem. Some contact to O.C.Ripper could help. 178.222.77.248 (talk) 03:14, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
If the similar sub-art. joke or humor was made about Jimbo and USA or GB, it would vanish in a minutes, not hours or months. But Janevistan will live forever.109.121.30.195 (talk) 10:57, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
"Janevistan" says much more about creators of that crazy site and Wiki Standards, than about Macedonia, Macedonians and Igor Janev.77.105.21.12 (talk) 12:49, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
Agree. And actually it seams to me that the only person who clearly benefited from "Janevistan" was Igor Janev! Looks to me like an advertisement in favor of Janev. What I found striking was that Serbo-Croatian editors didn't even knew correct spelling and Serbo-Croatian grammar. So even from the technical side the so-called "ARTICLE" was far from perfect. I would say complete disaster.178.222.77.248 (talk) 14:40, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
Would someone fluent in both Admin and Very Literal please come translate?
So, I appealed an AE indef block at ARCA. The first ArbCom respondent said "To get unblocked, agree to these conditions," and I keep saying what sounds like "yes" to me. I also want them to tell me exactly why I was topic-banned in the first place because apparently the things the enforcing admin said to me in February were ...wrong? ...not meant to be taken at face value? ...something else? One member of Arbcom says the problem is my "inability to draw simple inferences." I see that as guessing. I don't want to have to guess what's expected of me, especially if I can get re-sanctioned for guessing wrong. I can think of several things it might be, but some of them are mutually exclusive and some are frankly less than flattering to certain parties and I'd rather not piss anyone off unnecessarily.
I didn't even know what "discretionary sanctions" were until last year. Half the reason I got sanctioned in the first place is because I didn't know what a voluntary ban was, or what exactly was meant by "broadly construed," and thought "1RR" meant "one talk page post per day." These are all solvable problems.
It's tempting to feel like they want to keep everything vague to make it easier to sanction some people but not others at personal discretion or that the thing they want me to agree to is something that they feel would make them look bad if they said it publicly. I know, right? But other things that looked off about this (checks watch) eleven-month-and-counting ordeal have turned out to have benign explanations, and maybe this does too. I wouldn't be surprised if >90% of this is communication.
Even if I get reblocked, I feel like I deserve a straight, hint/guess/inference-free answer about why and that one of the problems that made such a huge contribution to this mess, lack of clear guidelines for users targeted by extremely long complaints, should be solved. It's easily solvable. I'd feel a little better about this if I knew it was less likely to happen to the next person.
So if you know how the Arbitration Committee thinks, are familiar with their MO, and feel up to spelling it out for someone who isn't in an unbiased and dispassionate manner, I'd love it if you followed the link and did so. Happy post-Thanksgiving. May all your screaming be happy screaming. Like with kids. Who are happy because of snow and presents and stuff. It's late and I'm tired. Translation appreciated at ARCA. Darkfrog24 (talk) 05:06, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
But then wouldn't I just stay blocked and topic-banned permanently? There's no expiration date on either one. I'm under the impression that sitting tight and waiting does nothing. Darkfrog24 (talk) 06:48, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
@Johnuniq: The problem is, as I just commented in my section there, is that it is not clear what is meant by "drop the matter". That is unless it means that @Darkfrog24: should never appeal their topic ban. That seems the obvious interpretation but that surely can't be what they mean. I have commented in my section asking them to please clarify. Do you know what they mean? It is not an automatically expiring topic ban. If it was then to just do nothing would make sense, I am myself a topic banned author, or was, but in my case it was a six month ban and I just had to wait until it expired which happened two days ago. But @Darkfrog24: can't do that. Robert Walker (talk) 21:09, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
Robertinventor it looks clear to me: Darkfrog needs to stop, forever and ever and ever, relitigating the circumstances under which they were topic banned. "Relitigating" includes but is not limited to talking about how this person lied, or that process was bad/unfair and could be improved, or Darkfrog disagrees with the topic ban because X, Y, Z. That limitation does not preclude them from appealing their topic ban. Instead, it means that any appeal they make must not include a discussion of any other editor's behaviour or what happened when they were banned but must focus solely on their own behaviour. Ca2james (talk) 22:23, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
I refer the hon. gentleman to the following statement by Opabinia regalis, with emphasis added:
"Darkfrog, we are running out of ways to tell you this. Your choices at this point are a) agree that your future participation on the English Wikipedia will be contingent on staying away from the MOS and style issues, and ceasing to endlessly re-argue the circumstances of your topic ban, or b) find a different hobby better suited to your interests."
What part of this is unclear? We know yo want to continue doing this stuff, that is the precise reason the restriction is in place. Don't do it. Forget it. Walk away. Stop. Ignore MOS and capitalisation. Don't go there. Desist. Guy (Help!) 22:27, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
Is that a rule for topic ban appeals that you can't discuss the behaviour of any other editor in the events that lead up to the ban, only your own behaviour? If so, can you point me towards the place in wikipedia guidelines on the appeal process where it says this? Or are you saying this is a rule that only applies to Darkfrog24 and if so why does it apply only to them?
If this is what they meant it wasn't at all clear to me from what they said in the quote you just gave. They didn't say that in so many words. Also just to say to anyone reading this, that, I understand from Darkfrog24's talk page that they have been warned that they are not permitted to take part in this conversation any more. Apparently it is a breach of their unblock conditions which they didn't realize[67] (and see their reply). So anyone reading this needs to be aware of that, that they are not permitted to comment here any more, so won't be able to answer questions put to them here. Thanks! Robert Walker (talk) 22:53, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
Darkfrog24 stated: "Short version: It started when I was targeted by a liar with a grudge". For that, I'd simply have reblocked him. It's bullshit. Applicable policy is WP:STICK. Guy (Help!) 23:33, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
They were talking to another uninvolved editor on their own talk page[68], and the conversation has now been archived already.
How can you say in advance that @SMcCandlish: didn't lie without checking? I haven't looked far back in this case myself, but I did go back to the Gaslighting claim and in my own statement to WP:ARCA, as I said[69], I feel they went way over the top. Indeed though I didn't say it there, it is my view that Darkfrog24 deserves an apology from them, after making such a horrible and completely unfounded statement about them - not just in a talk page but as part of their submission to the admins leading to the topic ban. I don't see how the diffs there could suggest Gaslighting to anyone (i.e. deliberately trying to make someone else mentally ill through surreptitious actions). As I said, to a UK reader they don't suggest an allegation of mental impairment either. They just read to me like Darkfrog24 advising other editors to be sympathetic to them because they seem to be going through a rough patch in life. Why should it be absolutely fine for them to accuse Darkfrog24 of Gaslighting in their deposition to the admins, and then it is a blocking offence in your view for Darkfrog24 to say that they tell lies in a comment on their own talk page to an uninvolved editor? Gaslighting is a far worse offence than a lie.
Anyway the main thing is, that Darkfrog24 needs to be told what the conditions are. If the conditions are that they must never call @SMcCandlish: a liar anywhere in wikipedia even on their own talk page - well that should be said clearly, and the reasons given for that condition. I would suggest that in return another condition should be that SMcCandlish should never accuse Darkfrog24 of gaslighting. In my experience Darkfrog24 is careful to follow due process, but needs to know what the conditions are. But if SMcCandlish did lie, and if it is necessary to bring this up for a successful appeal against their topic ban, then surely Darkfrog24 should be permitted to bring it up in that particular circumstance.
If you look at my suggestion, I suggested that one way forward would be if both Darkfrog24 and SMcCandlish agree to treat the past as the past and that they don't bring any past statements by either of them back to the board. They agree not to mention any statements either of them made prior to the date that they make that agreement, except, naturally, in the case of a topic ban appeal in the appropriate forum, if necessary for an appeal. So far nobody has commented on that suggestion. How does that sound (assuming they both agreed to it)? Would that be sufficient to remove the block? Robert Walker (talk) 00:35, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
Are you seriously suggesting that Arbcom needs to officially declare that user A must never refer to user B as a liar? If you are not joking, please stop commenting on issues like this until gaining some understanding of how Wikipedia works. And do not stir the pot by naming and pinging other editors who now have the choice of ignoring this (and "proving" they cannot defend themselves), or joining in with a full onslaught (and, due to the ensuing and unproductive fight, proving that Darkfro24 should have been indeffed a couple of weeks ago). Johnuniq (talk) 00:54, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
Oh, I pinged SMcCandlish just because I was talking about them and felt it was polite to ping someone if one discusses them. Please reread what I wrote, especially the last para, as that is not what I suggested, thanks! Robert Walker (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:44, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
Robert Walker, coming from a person who has been TBANed and failed to understand it when it was happening as well as afterwards (per this and the reclose here; and within that this and this (at the bottom of that dif) and this).... do you really think you should be giving advice to other people about their TBANs? Jytdog (talk) 03:59, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
My topic ban has expired. Also, it was the most minor topic ban you can have, restricted to a single phrase in the Buddhism area and imposed as a result of talk page activity on a single page, for an article which I never edited. However that is enough to help me to get some insight into what it is like to be banned. Robert Walker (talk) 08:44, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
This thread really only needed a one-word response: WP:COMPETENCE. Since Robertinventor/Robert Walker (who? why's this editor I've never encountered before going after me all of a sudden?) has dragged me into this, I'll add the following additional points, just for the Jimbo's-talk-page record (but avoiding "full onslaught" mode, per Johnuniq):
By all means, go right ahead try to prove I lied about DF24, in some appropriate venue. Otherwise just drop it. Good luck; diffs speak for themselves, and I only showed one card of a full hand of them I was holding (despite the large number of individual diffs that fraction racked up to). Those were more than sufficient to establishe what DF24's disruption patterns were, and how serious and long-term they were.
"Gaslighting" has multiple meanings, the most common of which in current American progressive socio-political discourse [both DF24 and I are American progressives, or so I would gather, so I'm extremely skeptical DF24 is unaware of this usage] is party A using crafty and ultimately dismissive language, including information withholding or outright disinformation, to convince others (perhaps even party B themselves) that party B is confused, wrongheaded, misperceiving, having memory or comprehension problems, changing their mind, etc. I see several crowdsourced definitions at UrbanDictionary that confirm that this meaning is widely recognized, along with the older, more alarming one. I decline to be raked over the coals because one party pretends the only definition is the one she can use to cast herself as a wrongly maligned victim. DF24 is a victim of nothing but her own WP:GREATWRONGS nationalistic campaigning over style trivia. [Here's the entire "gaslighting" statement, with diff, and phrased in such a way that my meaning cannot possibly be mistaken for DF24's extreme interpretation: "Note also that DF24 attempted a bunch of gaslighting about this, trying to convince objectors to this move that DF24 did it because we wanted it it done [70]; nothing could be further from the truth, as our objections obviously made clear." Whoop-de-doo. BTW, that was just one of many similar incidents, whether you like the term "gaslighting" for it or not. Another one is the word DF24 keeps using about me, and which Robertinventor has been incautiously repeating without cause or evidence.]
DF24's topic ban, expanded topic ban, block, and indef – in rapidly successive order, and with DF24 setting a new record for the number of requests against the same party all on WP:AE at the same time – had nothing at all to do with whether any gaslighting took place or with my use of that term. Check for yourself. It never arose once in any of these AE and ARCA proceedings (three and two so far, respectively) in any of the reasons for sanctions issued by any admin or Arb. All of these sanctions were for the same thing: tendentious, protracted, escalating disruption and WP:NOTGETTINGIT. DF24 has latched onto one extraneous word, "gaslighting", and is waving it around as a red herring to distract from the real issues with that editor. This herring, alas, will not cut down the mightiest tree in the forest, which is of course the aforementioned tendentious disruption and DF24's inability or unwillingness to drop it. Of all the issues my evidence diffs highlighted about DF24 (which was not even evidence submitted to AE, just mentioned as evidence in my userspace and still in-preparation for ArbCom, which AE admins chose to consider despite its incompletely sorted and uncompressed state), the brief mention of gaslighting is a trivial aside among the actually important points.
I categorically reject Robertinventor's novel suggestion that the way to deal with disruptive editors is that those who point out their disruptions to the appropriate venues should ban themselves from doing so. I will certainly not refuse to "bring any past statements ... back to the board" as relevant evidence should the need arise again, which it almost certainly will in February 2017 when the topic ban can be appealed.
Not aware of the dispute. It does appears to me that dismissal of reality and consensus because one has fire and conviction is the underlying genesis of the t-ban and indef under discussion here. — SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 11:37, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
Actually his issues predate that, with a topic ban from a Buddhism related article, where he showed no more sign of comprehending the problem than DF24 does his. Both of them have the same problem: unable to persuade others of their POV, and unwilling to accept it or walk away. Guy (Help!) 12:16, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
@Jytdog: please don't try to get me talking about that dispute. You warned me that you will take me to AE if I discuss it again anywhere in wikipedia so I see that as baiting me in an attempt to get me topic banned. I have not been disciplined in any way it is just a threat from you but I take it very seriously as I know how easy it is to get topic banned. Robert Walker (talk) 15:39, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
What i see here is similar to the AE case brought by Jytdog against me that is currently active. There is a group who seeks subordination and obedience from others. And there are some others who (rightly) resist or disobey the orders to "drop the stick" and all the associated controlling dynamics and attempts to reframe and redefine the portrayal of the dynamic (i.e. "gaslighting" sorts of things and way-off distortions of what's happened). Some people seek what is right -- both in terms of good dialog and morality and right action with others and in regard to article content. In fact, these two meanings of "right" intersect greatly, in that right behavior with others results in getting the articles right (which is the good phrase that i think Jimbo coined). That's why Wikipedia is so fascinating to me (as well as so maddening in current cultural debasement). Because it shows the nexus of knowledge and power -- epistemology / power. Treat people right. Work for completeness. Work for integrity to the policies. That will result in good content. On the other hand, if you allow purging of people with excuse-like reasons and continual shutting-down of some people because of discord with a dogma then you get an atmosphere of conformity and fear... self censoring as well as external censoring... something like McCarthyism. The result is a biased encyclopedia that is sub-par. SageRad (talk) 15:46, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
@SMcCandlish:, first, thanks for replying. This is what the crowdsourced defintion at Urban Dictionary says:[71].
A form of intimidation or psychological abuse, sometimes called Ambient Abuse where false information is presented to the victim, making them doubt their own memory, perception and quite often, their sanity. The classic example of gaslighting is to switch something around on someone that you know they're sure to notice, but then deny knowing anything about it, and to explain that they "must be imagining things" when they challenge these changes.
A more psychological definition of gaslighting is "an increasing frequency of systematically withholding factual information from, and/or providing false information to, the victim - having the gradual effect of making them anxious, confused, and less able to trust their own memory and perception.
So - with the more psychological definition which I assume you are referring to - the aim is not "to convince others (perhaps even party B themselves)". The entire focus of gaslighting is "to make party B" anxious, confused and less able to trust their own memory and perception. Are you saying that this is what Darkfrog24 has been doing to you? If so please provide diffs that prove the allegation.
I can't find that quote at the url you gave for it. In any case it was a talk page comment and such comments may not be written carefully. But your deposition for the topic ban must have been done carefully and with thoughtful use of language, especially for someone with linguistic training. And this is what you say there:
"He's just a not-random AT/MOS editor – one to whom DF24 (noting an earlier argument between me and that editor about MOS) has repeatedly cast WP:ASPERSIONS about my mental health, after the ban [72], and after Ds/alert: [73], [74]. Also, a long string of dishonesty allegations (increasing after ban) without evidence, only links to DF24's previous claims and denials ...
"Can prove this habit of incivility and gaslighting is much broader, but would need length-limit extension."
There where you say " has repeatedly cast WP:ASPERSIONS about my mental health" then the diffs you provide do not support that allegation. Instead if read carefully in context then in the "snarling at shadows" quote it is clear that Darkfrog24, far from trying to get you to doubt your sanity, is rather asking others to be understanding and sympathetic towards you.
Your statement about mental health there also reinforces the later statement in the same para about gaslighting, indeed would tend to suggest you meant it in the mental health sense if not clarified further as it wasn't. If you did not mean the word "gaslighting" in eithe rof the two normal senses, please assume good faith that Darkfrog24 does understand it in these ways. One way to make progress might be to make a clear statement to Darkfrog24 in your ARCA submission that you do not accuse them of gaslighting in either sense given in the urban dictionary, and then to ask for any such accusation to be removed from their record and to be considered as erased in any future topic ban appeals.
It is my understanding that they see this claim of gaslighting as the main reason for their indef topic ban. So if you can make it absolutely clear on ARCA that you do not mean it in that sense, and explain the sense in which you do mean it, we may see some movement there. Or simpler just ask for the claim to be struck from their record altogether because of the unfortunate generally understood meaning of the term. Thanks! Robert Walker (talk) 16:14, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
I agree with Guy that you're effectively undistinguishable in "take" from DF24; neither of you get how this works or why you were sanctioned, and you both treat this as a battle of honor to be won. You're even using the exact same blatant OR tactic: picking and choosing specific bits from a source that support your view, and pretending the other party was referring to that part (when they explicitly did exactly the opposite), all to try to make the other party look like they're lying or confused. Guess what that is? I never accused DF24 of any form of intimidation or psychological abuse, just bullshittery and snide insinuations she thinks (incorrectly) were craftily worded enough to give her plausible deniability. Your faux-civil "Thanks for replying" followed immediately by an attempt to discredit everything the other party says is another DF24 tactic in a similar vein. Re: "I can't find that quote at the URL you gave for it" – I didn't give an URL for it (the URL in it is part of the original quoted content). If you have actually followed the DF24 AE cases, you already know where my evidence diffs are from which I'm quoting; if you did not, then you have no business carrying on at length in this discussion, because you don't know what you're talking about. You're also not absorbing what I'm telling you. I'll spell it out yet again: Yes, I think DF24 was casting mental aspersions at me, but that had nothing to do with the rationales the AE admins and Arbs have used in sanctioning DF24; they have in fact ignored those aspects of what I provided (read the sanctions for yourself), though are finally taking them seriously (at least one AE admin and one Arb are now sympathetic to my request for a one-way interaction ban to prevent DF24 from discussing me on WP). DF24 was re-sanctioned for topic-ban violation because she re-entered the MoS fray to try to recruit another MoS editor to start trouble with me on her behalf, and this was a violation of her topic ban, period. Whether her exact wording in some of it constituted gaslighting, under any of the many definitions, is completely irrelevant. I don't need to explain anything further at ARCA about any of this (no one there indicates confusion of any kind about it); I will not retract anything for which I have evidence just because an ally of the subject of the request has a different interpretation of it and the subject prefers one definition over another as a "look, I'm a victim!" game; and no "movement" needs to happen there that hasn't already happened, namely a unanimous Arb decision to reinstate DF24's block. We're done here. And there. — SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 22:56, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
@SageRad: Yes exactly. The reason I am acting here is firstly because in my experience of working with them in a sustained way on meta, Darkfrog24 is an excellent editor and would be a great asset to wikipedia. The encyclopedia is worse off without them. Also the effect on editors of being banned especially when they feel they have been accused of awful things such as Gaslighting. Many editors would have given up and turned their back on wikipedia after that. I have seen too many good editors being thrown out of wikipedia as a result of this sort of treatment. Indeed the astonishing reaction by one of the editors in this conversation when I posted a message of sympathy on your talk page is a case in point there. I'd already said that I was no longer going to take part in the discussion of the article (which I won't mention again) due to the threat to take me to AE if I continued. How could they have even begun to think that a public offer of sympathy on a talk page of a then blocked editor was a way to try to get you to comment on a discussion in a topic that you have expressed no interest in? It is beyond me. And to warn you not to take up my offer to talk to me if you are in any distress... I've seen some bizarre things in conversations here on wikipedia but that really takes the biscuit as the strangest ever. Robert Walker (talk) 16:29, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
Which can be reinterpreted as: "DF24's my buddy, and her Quest for Personal Justice resonates with me, as does that of SageRad, because I too got restricted for being disruptive and will never let it go, including by continuing to discuss it through the WP:SANCTIONGAMING technique of agitating about it while pretending not to, with statements like 'no longer going to take part in the discussion of the article (which I won't mention again) due to the threat to take me to AE if I continued'." That's not going to fool anyone. — SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 22:56, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
I have no sanction against me. Just a threat by Jytdog to take me to ARE if I present my views on the article anywhere in wikipedia. So I refuse to be drawn to talk about it any more. I take that threat seriously as I know from my own experience how easy it is to get topic banned just for talking in a forthright honest way without even editing an article. If it gets mentioned here again I won't reply any more. It was good of Jytdog to warn me. The topic ban which just expired was the result of an editor who suddenly took me to WP:ANI without warning me that they intended to do so, so giving me no chance to modify my behaviour before they took me there. Robert Walker (talk) 23:09, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
Missing the point again, which is that you're still talking about it while pretending not to, drawing up battle lines against Jytdog in relationship to it, and drawing attention to yourself as some kind of victim in relationship to it. This was the same WP:LAWYER "try to exploit the technicality that I'm not naming it by name" approach that got DF24 into renewed and escalated trouble. The way to not talk about it is, obviously, to not talk about it, which includes resisting the urge to have the last word when someone else brings it up, or to characterize them for having brought it up. Maybe you think of it as aloof meta-discussion, but everyone else will see it as direct discussion of the topic through a filter of pretense. — SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 23:28, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
SMcCandlish is exactly correct. Most of those supporting Sagerad or Darkfrog are editors who do not want anyone to be sanctioned for disruptively pushing a point of view against consensus over and over and over. Amazingly, several of the supporters have themselves been similarly sanctioned and they just happen to believe that those sanctions should not apply to anyone. Johnuniq (talk) 06:36, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
If someone wants to ask the ArbCom for clarification, the correct thing to do is to ask one or more members of the ArbCom for clarification, either directly or at WP:ARCA or its talk page. However, if the arbs believe that their is no reason for further clarification based on the theory that any reasonable, competent person would be able to understand the specifcs, then there is a very strong chance that this thread itself might qualify as WP:TE. Just saying "I want (everything my way)" isn't necessarily reason to believe that everyone is necessarily obliged to act in that way. WP:CIR could be seen as being relevant here. I suggest that if this discussion goes on any longer here, where basically nothing certain can be achieved, I think it might be reasonable to raise concerns at the appropriate noticeboard. John Carter (talk) 18:02, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
Here we go again. This time the Green Party is filing for recounts in Wisconsin, Michigan & Pennsylvania (electoral votes: 10, 16 and 20, enough to elect Hillary Clinton; source: Reuters J18X). I think we'll need a separate article page for 2016 Recount, but coverage has begun as a small section in:
Beyond hiding ballots ("behind a file cabinet" as in Nov. 2000), there are numerous potential computer viruses which could switch votes, and print a voter record to match, unless a voter reads the vote-record to reject result as not how they voted. In Pennsylvania, the margin was ~68,500 more votes for Trump, but that count could be easy to slant, especially if only occasional votes were flipped and many voters did not verify their printed voter record. With Justice Antonin Scalia now gone, I don't think U.S. Supreme Court could stop recount(s) this time (as in year 2000's 5/4 halt decision), although the Trump campaign did file to stop or scrutinize Nevada after-hours voters for 2016 election day early voting, but rejected by judge. I studied potential voter viruses, years ago, which could delete themselves after election day, and only flip votes after the first hundred ballots were cast or checked by pre-test of machine tallies. See 2006 concerns: "Controversy Surrounds Computerized Voting Systems". The other recount filing deadlines are Monday/Wednesday, 28/30 Nov 2016. Because of such extensive details, I think a separate article page would be needed for proper coverage of similar details, and how Republicans try to stop recounts this time. -Wikid77 (talk) 08:50, 25 November 2016 (UTC), revised Nevada early voting -Wikid77 (talk) 13:43, 28 November 2016 (UTC) More sources:Guardian nov/23, "Nevada judge denies Trump request; warns about Twitter trolls" (CNN 8Nov16). -Wikid77 (talk) 11:26, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
What does this have to do with Jimmy Wales? If you think a topic warrants a Wikipedia article, write an article; you don't need to get his permission. ‑ Iridescent08:53, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
Jimmy Wales has expressed interest in major elections, as with the Brexit vote, and Wikipedia coverage of major topics. The 2016 U.S. presidential election is remarkable for the "losing" candidate to have received 2 million more votes than her opponent, as suspicious where close vote totals favored the less-popular opponent. -Wikid77 (talk) 11:26, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
For Wikipedia to explain the 2016 Recounts looks to be more complex than "hanging chad" of the 2000 Florida recount. The Green Party filed to recount Wisconsin (near 1 hour from deadline), and Clinton campaign lawyers have joined the Wisconsin recount analysis (see: "Clinton Camp Will Join Push for Wisconsin Ballot Recount" NYTimes). Secondary sources have stated that, beyond recount of ballots, there is also the problem of "forensic analysis of voting machines" (see: "Experts Urge Clinton Campaign to Challenge Election Results in 3 Swing States" NYmag), which could check for evidence of computer viruses or patches to executable programs used within the voting machines or any central tabulator computers, as in prior tampering crimes of such machines. As you might know, some computer programmers create software with "filler areas" of null instructions within the software's machine code, and such areas can be quickly patched with overlaid machine code (as different calculations) which fit within those filler areas, also possibly adding other null instructions to pad as fitting the same diskspace region. A special program, to overwrite the same diskspace (or firmware?), could be used to bypass file timestamps and alter program execution code, without showing history of altering file modification dates in a directory folder. Experts in program patches or voting machine tampering could compare bitwise executable code to detect changes beyond file-modification dates. Such comparisons would need to account for any installation-specific data in those voting machines. A disassembler could be used to reveal any altered calculation(s), such as the prior tampering which forced tally as 50%+1 to avoid runoff election of local officials who used spoiler candidates to weaken the popular choice, then faked 50%+1 to hide minority candidate win. All these details would increase the need for new WP pages to explain the 2016 Recounts, perhaps even a page for each state (Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, and Michigan), to also explain what evidence backed the authorization to recount each state, and the expected lawsuits to halt the various recounts (and explain the obtuse legalese invoked to delay any counts). Then there can be fake protests, bussing in people who pretend to be local residents protesting a recount, as in Florida 2000. Plus 6 in U.S. electoral college refusing to vote Trump. That's enough issues for now. -Wikid77 (talk) 10:34, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
Pennsylvania vote widened & recount difficult
Recent 2016 vote counts for Pennsylvania have tallied a larger lead over Hillary Clinton, as 70,779 more votes now (source: pa.gov), among the 6,028,539 votes counted so far, across the 9,163 precincts in those 18 districts. Because voting machine errors are expected only within 0.5% (or a 1% shift), then a winning margin over 60,285 (1%) is unlikely to be overcome in a statewide recount, unless there was substantial fraud in totals. On Monday, 28 Nov 2016, the Green Party filed for recounts in 100 of those 9,163 precincts in Pennsylvania, but the recount deadline might have expired in many precincts. Technically, a Clinton win in Pennsylvania would be very easy, as averaging a mere ~8 more recount votes in each precinct. However, another limiting factor is the raw count of votes, as again the typical ~60 million for a Republican candidate since 2004, while Hillary Clinton received several million fewer votes than Obama from 2012 or 2008, as if ~6 million "Democrats" failed to vote in the 2016 election. Meanwhile, if recounts increase the Clinton counts & show major evidence of fraud, then more members of the U.S. Electoral College might switch votes toward Clinton. -Wikid77 (talk) 16:24, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
Several years ago, I examined some U.S. state's vote recount procedures, and I was appalled how weak the recounting tended to be. For example, in one state a recount began by hand-counting a modest sample of the ballots, and if no differences were found with machine-counts, then the vast bulk of remaining ballots were NOT recounted at all, as if tally errors were only due to random sprinkling of counting errors, rather than some easy fraud such as switching wires with a rarely used machine to upload vote totals. I don't even think the recount procedures directed personnel to reset computer date/time as election day to simulate conditions that day, and a virus which switched votes only on actual election days could remain in voting machines and pass the recount scrutiny.
Another severe recount problem has been "dimpled chad" which could occur mainly on late-day paper ballots, after voting machines became full of early chad which blocked the punch-hole trays and refused to punch a hole for the popular candidate, in busy voting booths, but might easily punch through at another candidate into a less-full tray of chad pieces. The chad blockage was increased by the rush, at end of election night, to securely store (not clean) paper voting machines, as fast as possible into a locked room, where all chad (from the day) slid downward to over-stuff the holes at the extreme ends of chad trays, under holes where the most important offices were positioned on ballots, for the next election day. Only machines quickly stored for safety had this problem, while machines left out or cleaned at leisure produced safer results. The chad trays might even seem empty, until voting machines were stacked on end where chad slid downhill to block holes of the most-popular candidates. Consequently, mainly votes for the popular choice would fail to register (beyond a dimpled chad), while underdog candidates would receive similar votes to prior elections, but win now in a "landslide" because more votes for the popular candidate were blocked by chad piled underneath the ballot hole.
Such a condition could generate "sky-high" blank votes where a popular candidate would be expected to receive hundreds more votes in busy precincts. Now imagine oil/dirt accumulates on a touchscreen voting machine, at the most-popular choices, and a few dozen voters (per precinct) think a similar touch registers every choice equally, before they rush back to work.
Even worse, recounts are triggered only in extremely close counts, not when an underdog candidate surprisingly edges ahead, nor if a candidate predicted to win 3% ahead loses by 1%, either by fraud or machine malfunction. The more shocking the election result, the less likely a recount[!]. Wikipedia needs pages to explain these issues of "Recount procedures" in how easily a popular candidate can lose a close election, when they actually won. Later. -Wikid77 (talk) 12:24, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
That's of consequence if it can be showed that it is biased in favor of one of the 2016 presidential candidates. If there is a reliable source for this, suggest adding it to the recount article. Without a reliable source, it doesn't seem to be of any use for the article. --Bob K31416 (talk) 12:43, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
Indeed, it seems difficult to find wp:RS reliable sources about problems with voting machines, and I only knew about chad pile-up (blocking the holes under dimpled chad) by talking with Texas election officials who had stored machines after elections in locked rooms for years. It is amazing to keep finding these major topics to write about in Wikipedia for the next decade. -Wikid77 (talk) 23:05, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
Thanks, those pages saved me hours of hunting for the related topics, and I have redirected the prior redlinks (above) to link those pages for now. -Wikid77 (talk) 23:05, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
#BlackoutUK
Multiple people have written to Wikimedia asking for support of #BlackoutUK on 2016/12/12.
I don't know enough about this initiative to have my own opinion about whether we should be supportive or not, but I would like feedback on two related issues:
How, if at all, should the Wikimedia community respond?
I think a blackout would be a good idea. Unfortunately, it is quite late in the game. The right time would have been back in March, before the House of Commons voted on it, or (less optimally) in November just before the House of Lords voted on it. As it stands, the law has been passed, signed by the Queen, and is now law. I believe the odds of success for a blackout the day before the vote in the Commons were reasonably high and that this was an unfortunate missed opportunity. Even if politicians are impressed by a protest now, they only have to do nothing and wait for it all to blow over. If they were to be inspired to act, they have to draft new legislation and try to get it passed - with a Prime Minister who is very supportive of the law being passed. I think this is less likely to be successful. Even so I still want to do it, and if the community want to do it, I'll take the day off and visit as many tv and radio news programmes as I can.
In terms of a response for OTRS agents, I should leave it to those more experienced than I to draft proposed wording. But some of the best practices would be to explain that such decisions are taken by the community, and that the right way to discuss with the community is to get an account and come talk to us (providing them with a link to a page where we are specifically welcoming to newbies would be helpful). It is always wise to keep in mind that most people assume that decisions like this are made by the board/staff/CEO (or me personally or whatever) and if they get a "no, we aren't going to do this" email that doesn't explain things, they'll assume that the organization doesn't really care.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:24, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
This is altogether relevant. I am reading things like [75][76] which emphasize that this is a case of vague censorship law being adorned, quite recently, with an ever-expanding bureaucratic implementation. So this isn't really "just" the law passed earlier, but an act by the administration.
A blackout by Wikipedia may merely mirror the likely effect of a blackout by the British government itself. Wikipedia has taken a policy of encrypting connections rather than encouraging or helping in page-by-page censorship. The key thing we need to do is to resist any push by the British, who seem to have a very strong lobby on this site, to censor it to meet their standards. We have to retain our content, and if that means that the British can't read it, or they're supposed to go to some special site and submit to absurd violations o their privacy in an appeal to be allowed to read it, that's not our issue. It may be that illicit distribution on smuggled drives by armed criminal gangs is the appropriate model for disseminating Wikipedia in Britain, and may their every bullet fly straight and true. Wnt (talk) 19:18, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
Male voters for Trump
Male dominance in Wikipedia
Female voters for Clinton
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