Talk:Killing of James Boyd

Deletion of the James Boyd page

This page should not be delete as it stands the ramifications are still unfolding. The Shooting event seems to be causing a seachange concerning mental health and policing policy and practices in New Mexico. The political fallout seems to be negated by speedy resolution of cause and effect and restoration of the public trust brought on by the various layers of government/s applying best practice simultaneously.

Due to on-going multi-layered levels attached to this Shooting it could lead to a new social pact policing model State/s wide.

criminal record dubious tag

this is a very controversial shooting in a city with very complacent media. It was A DoJ investigation before Ferguson, so there is reason to suspect slant. I do see a number of mugshots online, so apparently he did have police contact, but I cannot find any court records online for anyone named James Boyd anywhere in New Mexico, and there should be some if he had ever had any kind of hearing, even for jaywalking. Absolutely all court case are included in this database; parking tickets, traffic, everything. Possibly they purge dead defendants (?) or possibly he just got rousted a few times. If the latter, he was hardly the dangerous criminal the police account portrayed (?) Elinruby (talk) 04:48, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

PS - this is a question - if anyone has a real reference, please bring it.

@Elinruby:I've been aware of this situation since Boyd was killed. I watched the video of his death and attributed it in large part to two impetuous and impatient, trigger happy officers. There were too many officers on the scene, and their presence both wasted time and escalated the situation of dealing with a very difficult and disturbed individual. Having extensive experience in the field of both criminal justice and mental health casework, including with the homeless M.I. I believe there was insufficient intervention from trained caseworkers for the mentally disabled who might have provided services forestalled and/or prevented this death. Clearly, Boyd was of little danger to anyone but himself, in this instance, but he was quite disturbed, angry, and had attacked others in the past. His unfortunate death however brought attention to the shortcomings of the ABQ police force and LEO in general in dealing with the mentally ill, especially in the withdrawal for funding for appropriate intervention of this class of people. Our society is much more willing to spend money for response than prevention or amelioration. All that said (excuse while I get down from my soapbox) this was perhaps the worst example of poor editing and oversight on Wikipedia I've ever seen. I cleaned up a number of bare URLs, added more to bring the article more current. There are still sixteen bare URLs in the references. Without going through the history, I suspect many have been placed there by unregistered users, and wonder if same as a class might be permanently blocked from editing this article? I looked at the history after realizing that USER:Elinruby had done a mammoth effort (134 edits) to clean up this article in the past, but that afterward, the same sort of careless and/or inept editors who had caused the problem earlier continued to botch it. Now that the trials are bringing the case once more to public attention I hope that someone can devote similar efforts to it now and in the future. I'm far to busy to do so. It presents a very important article and issues, including because of the social and public policy aspects, as well as the Wikipedia editing ones. We should all thank "Elinruby" for his or her dedication. Lastly, there seem to be cites about Boyd's history that would tend to confirm his criminal record. Maybe I can help there. Activist (talk) 13:41, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

@Activist: I'm not sure that this is the appropriate venue for this discussion, but since you stated your opinion – I think that calling the officers who shot Mr. Boyd "impetuous, impatient and trigger happy" is inappropriate. They spent about 3 1/2 hours dealing with Mr. Boyd, in an effort to get him to put down his weapons and walk off the hill. Due to his mental illness, they were unable to do so. If you have evidence of previous incidents involving these officers that show that either of them was "trigger happy" please post it. The officer didn't fire until they perceived that the K−9 handler was in jeopardy. Given the terrain, time of day, seriousness of the offense, the fact that Mr. Boyd had committed repeated assaults with a deadly weapon on LEOs (Law Enforcement Officers), and the fact that he had a tactical advantage, having a large number of officers present, to prevent his escape is reasonable. You say that you think this is "wasting time" but that seems to be in direct opposition to your statement that they were "impetuous and impatient." It's also interesting that you think that it escalated the situation. When possible, LEOs bring enough people to handle the problem. At times, more than are necessary show up, but given that "too many is better than too few," that's not an issue. It's easier to send people back to their duties than to call for more people, who may be miles away and may not respond in time. There were numerous supervisors, both on the scene, and monitoring the situation from the command center, who if they thought that there were too many officers present could have, and would have told some of them to clear and go back to their normal duties. The area in question is open desert and Mr. Boyd could have fled in any direction at any time, greatly complicating the situation and increasing the danger to himself and the officers present. Having a large number of officers present, while it may have affected his impaired mental state, was helpful to prevent his escape, should he try to leave the scene.

I too have extensive experience in the field of criminal justice. I spent 30 years in LE and served on a SWAT team, as department Rangemaster, and was a use of force instructor on several police tools, as well as many other assignments. I retired with the rank of Sgt. I've testified as a use of force expert several times in municipal and superior courts. I'm certainly not a mental health caseworker but have dealt with the mentally ill and homeless, hundreds of times.

You say that there was "insufficient intervention from trained caseworkers ..." in this case. Unfortunately you overlook the constraints of time, location and time of day. The discussions with Mr. Boyd went on for over three hours. You may have noticed that when the incident was finally resolved, it was starting to get dark. This is not an area where it's possible to bring in lights to illuminate the area. And so continuing to talk to Mr. Boyd would have occurred in the dark, where it would have been difficult, if not impossible to see him, and to see what he's doing. In more urban areas, LE allows the situations to go on, sometimes for days. But here, that wasn't possible. It needed to come to a conclusion in a timely manner. Besides being a danger to himself, Mr. Boyd was a danger to the officers and before they had arrived, to any passerby who happened to bump into him. He thought he was "a messenger from God," that he was "working for the Department of Defense," and that he was "empowered to kill anyone who interfered with his investigation." And he was armed with two knives. As you point out, "he was quite disturbed, angry, had attacked other in the past."

As to "the shortcomings of the ABQ police force and LEO in general in dealing with the mentally ill" – nonsense! LE deals with the mentally ill thousands, perhaps millions of times a day in the US. RARELY does it result in such an outcome. If nothing untoward happens, and that's the most common result, you don't hear about it. But given the "If it bleeds, it leads" ethos of today's press, when it go sideways, it's news around the world. It sells advertising, so it's kept at the top of the news. I agree that more should be done with and for these people, but until that's done, we work with what we're given. Beanyandcecil (talk) 18:10, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

@Beanyandcecil: @Elinruby: Before going to work for the ABQ PD, Sandy had been fired from the state police for engaging in fraud, on the job. Keith Sandy said on arrival at the scene, before walking up the hill, caught on the dash cam, that he was going to taze Boyd. He also said he was going to shoot his penis off, calling him a "******* lunatic," while still quite a distance from him. He does not turn his lapel or helmet camera on. Having between 19 and 40-something officers on the scene and on the clock, is certainly "wasting time." Boyd is in crisis, agitated, and the crowd of uniforms can't have helped but make him more so, when calm is called for. You can see the video of Boyd shouldering a large knapsack and picking up and holding other objects in his hands, starting to walk calmly downhill, apparently complying with the officers' requests. Sandy quickly escalates the situation, throws a flash bang at him which explodes and turns him around with his back toward Sandy and Perez. He's shot and topples forward, away from the officers, dropping the bag and other objects and grasps a knife in each hand as he's face down on the ground. Sandy has shot him in both arms, shattering the humerus bone in his right upper arm. Perez, who is lower down the hill, shoots him in the lower back. The bullet destroys Boyd's spleen, transverse colon and lung before it lodges in his left deltoid muscle. Perez shoots beanbag rounds and hits Boyd in the buttock. The K9 is released and he begins to chew Boyd's right leg. He's told to drop the knives but he would not have had control of his right hand, possibly not his left as well. Where's Boyd going to "escape to?" He's high up on the U-Mount hill, in the desert, hundreds of feet from a subdivision, with all those officers strung out below him, and what might he be escaping from? The LEO's are there to insure that he leaves his campsite. He's not about to leave all his possessions nor is he physically capable of running uphill through the boulders and away, and he has not physically assaulted anyone. He's 38 years old, high mileage, weighs 102 kilos/225 pounds (probably without his arm). The DOJ report, which avoided commenting on the Boyd case because it was under investigation, repeatedly criticized the lack of effective command on the force, chronic overuse of often deadly force. It appears that Sandy was literally calling the shots. Well I've worked with over a hundred homeless (when I outreached them) mentally ill clients, many as agitated as Boyd was. I got all but a couple to voluntarily accept medication and treatment, outreached probably a quarter of them in situations not at all unlike Boyd's, literally living out in the desert amongst the scorpions and rattlesnakes. I got all of them on Supplemental Security Income save for one who qualified for Social Security Disability. I've run ex-offender programs and community and prison substance abuse treatment programs. It appeared to be rapidly coming to an acceptable conclusion before Sandy escalated it. I was wrong about the negotiator, who had handled hundreds of cases.I suspect that any "passerby" in this hiking area would have given him a wide berth. It's unlikely that he was looking for a confrontation. You may not even have looked at the film of the shooting, from your take on it. It's quite gruesome. If you want a better understanding of how out of control the APD was, you need to read the entire DOJ report which goes into exhaustive detail about other cases, reviews and summarizes documentation and deficient training procedures, analyzes chronic failure of supervision which actually congratulated inept and violent perpetrators and their handling of crisis situations. I should add that the Boyd family sued for $1.7 million, the city fought it, and lost a $5 million judgment which indicates how the jury perceived it. The total bill for it and other cases it's lost, after similar mishandling, have cost taxpayers in the tens of millions, if the city is self insured or assuming its premiums went up commensurate with their prior and subsequent settlements. Let me know when you've read this and I'll erase part of my comments. Activist (talk) 15:21, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

@Activist: Activist wrote, "Before going to work for the ABQ PD, Sandy had been fired from the state police for engaging in fraud, on the job."

Yes, that's correct. But there was no filing of charges so when APD needed to fill openings, they hired him. In any case, it has nothing to do with this incident.

Activist wrote, "Keith Sandy said on arrival at the scene, before walking up the hill, caught on the dash cam, that he was going to taze Boyd. He also said he was going to shoot his penis off"

Sorry, but that is wrong. His actual comment was that "he planned to shoot Boyd “in the penis with a [Taser] shotgun here in a second." Check the Article for the references. He was obviously talking about using less lethal. While unfortunate, especially given the outcome of the contact, it's not unusual for people who work in high stress situations such as the military or LE, to make jokes like this. It's called "locker room humor" or "black humor." More ironic than funny. Talk of maiming like this is also common in sports. I'd bet that many of us have said about the other sports team, "We're gonna kill'em," never really intending to cause death.

Activist wrote, "calling him a "******* lunatic," while still quite a distance from him."

Yes, that's true. He knew Boyd from his reputation. It means nothing regarding this incident. Boyd WAS mentally ill, and had been diagnosed a long time before this incident. The use of the word "lunatic" is insensitive and crude, but given the context, not completely unexpected or unheard of.

Activist wrote, "He does not turn his lapel or helmet camera on."

True again, but unless you can prove that this was intentional, thinking there is something untoward is conjecture and it may imply a bias that has no place in an encyclopedia entry. It's not unusual for someone focused on a dangerous situation, to forget a detail like this. Body and helmet cameras are relatively new in LE it will take awhile before everyone becomes accustomed to them.

Activist wrote, "Having between 19 and 40-something officers on the scene and on the clock, is certainly 'wasting time.' "

The official record is that there were 19 officers present, an appropriate number given the area, the situation, access by the public, and the situation. The only place that the number 41 appears is in the filing of a lawsuit, where such exaggerations are common. It's also done so that if, during the proceedings more officers are discovered to be involved, they can be named. Typically in such filings they are described as "John Does 20-40."

Activist wrote, "Boyd is in crisis, agitated, and the crowd of uniforms can't have helped but make him more so, when calm is called for."

I agree but in such a situation there's no time to go change out of uniforms into plain clothes. The mere suggestion is just, well, silly. It takes a large number of officers to contain such a scene.

Activist wrote, "You can see the video of Boyd shouldering a large knapsack and picking up and holding other objects in his hands, starting to walk calmly downhill, apparently complying with the officers' requests."

Sorry but this is completely and utterly wrong! Before Boyd was going to be allowed to walk down the hill it was necessary, for many reasons, to disarm him, and check him for other weapons that he might have possessed. In fact, the officers planned to arrest him and have him evaluated at a psychiatric facility. For details of why this is so, this take a look at my response to Elinruby under the heading " 'Negotiations' or 'unsuccessful negotiations?' "

Activist wrote, "Sandy quickly escalates the situation, throws a flash bang at him which explodes and turns him around with his back toward Sandy and Perez. He's shot and topples forward, away from the officers, dropping the bag and other objects and grasps a knife in each hand as he's face down on the ground. Sandy has shot him in both arms, shattering the humerus bone in his right upper arm. Perez, who is lower down the hill, shoots him in the lower back."

Sorry, but you have the timeline and the facts completely wrong. I suggest that you review the video, paying close attention to what it shows. The flash−bang does not turn Boyd around. In fact, there's evidence that it did not affect him in the slightest. It appears that it was thrown into some rocks that shielded him from both the noise and the flash of the device firing.

Here's the proper chronology. Boyd picks up some of his property. Sandy throws the flash−bang. This distracts the police dog, as does the firing of the flash−bang. The handler releases the dog about the same time that another officer fires a Taser shotgun, which has no effect on Boyd. Boyd drops the property he's picked up. He draws both of his knives and takes an aggressive stance, including taking a step forward, towards the officers. The K−9 handler advances to cover his dog as it runs first towards where the flash−bang fired, and then towards Boyd. The dog does not bite Boyd, rather it approaches him, and then returns to the handler. Two officers who are providing cover for the handler, advance just behind him. The dog picks up a small bag and brings it to the handler. The handler crouches down, probably to get the dog to release this bag, intending to resend the dog to bite Boyd. The handler's full attention is on the dog and his firearm is holstered so that he can handle the dog. At this moment Boyd is 8'-10' from Boyd, well within a distance from which, he could take a couple of steps forward, and slash him with either of his knives. If you've ever done any reactive drills, as most LEOs (Law Enforcement Officers) have, you know that this slashing, from this distance, can occur before a shot can be fired. And that assumes that there is an instant reaction to being shot. Those of us who study these things realize that even rifle fire often does not stop an action instantly. As the cover officers make the decision to fire to protect the handler, Boyd begins to turn, and the bullets strike him in the arm and the back.

Boyd falls to the ground still holding both his knives. The officers have no way of knowing whether or not their rounds have incapacitated Boyd, or even if they've hit him at all. It's not unheard of for someone to "fake" being shot to lure an officer within range of their edged weapons. And so, when he's not compliant to their commands to drop his knives, one officer fires three bean bag shotgun rounds, striking Boyd's buttock, and the handler redeploys his dog to bite him. After the officers are convinced that Boyd is not faking, they approach him, remove the knives from his hands and handcuff him.

Activist wrote, "The bullet destroys Boyd's spleen, transverse colon and lung before it lodges in his left deltoid muscle."

The damage done by the rounds is unknown to the officers, it's only discovered much later, when he's at the hospital. These incidents are properly judged ONLY by what the officers knew at the time, not what is discovered later. This is long−held case law from SCOTUS (the Supreme Court of the United States).

Activist wrote, "Where's Boyd going to "escape to?" He's high up on the U-Mount hill, in the desert, hundreds of feet from a subdivision, with all those officers strung out below him, and what might he be escaping from?"

The concern at this moment is not that he'll escape, it's that they have to approach him to place handcuffs on him. If he's faking, he can easily slash any officer that comes within range.

Activist wrote, "The LEO's are there to insure that he leaves his campsite. "

The first officers that responded, the Open Space Officers were probably, as you say, only going to have him move his campsite out of the Albuquerque City limits. But when he escalated to threatening to kill both of them, and threatened them with a knife, he committed a felony, "assault with a deadly weapon on a police officer." (The Albuquerque penal code may word the charge slightly differently). HE escalated the situation, not the officers.

Activist wrote, "He's not about to leave all his possessions nor is he physically capable of running uphill through the boulders and away, and he has not physically assaulted anyone."

It doesn't take an Olympic athlete to slash someone with a knife. His physical condition is meaningless. And given that, at times, mental patients are highly resistant to pain, it can make them very dangerous.

Activist wrote, "Well I've worked with over a hundred homeless (when I outreached them) mentally ill clients, many as agitated as Boyd was. I got all but a couple to voluntarily accept medication and treatment, outreached probably a quarter of them in situations not at all unlike Boyd's, literally living out in the desert amongst the scorpions and rattlesnakes. I got all of them on Supplemental Security Income save for one who qualified for Social Security Disability. I've run ex-offender programs and community and prison substance abuse treatment programs. It appeared to be rapidly coming to an acceptable conclusion before Sandy escalated it. "

That's great! And I mean that sincerely. If only every single contact with these folks ended as yours did. But the fact is that they don't. By your own admission "I got all but a couple ..." Not everyone has your skill in dealing with these folks. We're talking about LEOs not mental health workers. Perhaps the mental health professional that was called to the scene isn't as good as you are. Perhaps he missed a cue that you might have picked up. OR, perhaps Boyd was just in worse mental condition than anyone you've encountered. It's one thing to deal with these folks when in a calm, fairly controlled situation. It's quite another to deal with them, in the field, when they're at their worst.

Activist wrote, "I suspect that any "passerby" in this hiking area would have given him a wide berth. "

You may be correct, but it's nothing but wishful thinking and conjecture. Given that there are only narrow walking paths through the area, it's quite hilly and strewn with boulders and rocks, it's conceivable that someone could be within feet of him, before they even saw him.

Activist wrote, "It's unlikely that he was looking for a confrontation."

I've dealt with hundreds of such people in my career. Few of them were "looking for a confrontation." I've also had them change from quiet and mild to murderous, without an obvious trigger and without any warning. They are unpredictable and can be set off by many triggers without one even realizing that they've set them off, until it's too late.

Activist wrote, "You may not even have looked at the film of the shooting, from your take on it."

I have watched that video repeatedly, frame by frame. You are the one who seems to have missed what it shows.

Activist wrote, "It's quite gruesome." Some people, by their choice of professions, regularly see and do things, that the average person (whatever that means) could not handle.

There's a saying in LE (Law Enforcement). "No use of force is pretty."

Activist wrote, "If you want a better understanding of how out of control the APD was, you need to read the entire DOJ report which goes into exhaustive detail about other cases, reviews and summarizes documentation and deficient training procedures, analyzes chronic failure of supervision which actually congratulated inept and violent perpetrators and their handling of crisis situations."

No need. I've read the summary. It shows a pattern or practice of excessive uses of force. But each use of force needs to be examined by itself, not based on other uses of force or habits. This one, looks to me, to be an appropriate use of force. The courts will have the final word on it. If they come back with not guilty verdicts, there will probably be another trial at the federal level.

Activist wrote, "I should add that the Boyd family sued for $1.7 million, the city fought it, and lost a $5 million judgment which indicates how the jury perceived it."

My information is that the lawsuit was settled out of court for the $5M figure, with the city not admitting any responsibility. If you Google "james boyd lawsuit Albuquerque" the first two links (besides the link to the Wiki article) state this clearly, and the list goes on and on, with virtually every one of the entries supporting my statement on this, and contradicting yours. I did not find even one link that supports your assertion. If you have some, please show them to us.

Activist wrote, "The total bill for it and other cases it's lost, after similar mishandling, have cost taxpayers in the tens of millions, if the city is self insured or assuming its premiums went up commensurate with their prior and subsequent settlements."

It's not unusual for government entities to settle such lawsuits out of court. $5 million is close to what it probably would have cost to defend the suit in court and the video is so ugly to the average person that it may have turned the jury against the department, notwithstanding the facts. In many large cities, payouts by the police department are the smallest of all the entities in city government. That being said, I don't know the stats for Albuquerque.

Activist wrote, "Let me know when you've read this and I'll erase part of my comments."

I prefer that you NOT "erase [any] part of [your] comments. They show a lack of knowledge of what actually occurred during this incident and perhaps a bias that may have influenced your editing. I freely admit to a bias on the side of LE, but having investigated dozens of LE shootings and other incidents, I'm neutral until the facts are known. I've not had the opportunity to watch much of the trial so my comments are often based on the written news reports and on reports on the Net. Had you wanted your comments to not be seen by other editors, you could have sent it to me privately or to my personal talk page. Instead you chose to put it here, for all to see. Please leave them up in full. Beanyandcecil (talk) 08:17, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

hi @Beanyandcecil:, have you seen the DoJ report? Elinruby (talk) 04:58, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

No I have not. But I have no issue with their finding. But they did not address this incident and what happened before it, has no bearing on it. Incidents like this one must be investigated without regard to what came before them or what came after them. Beanyandcecil (talk) 08:17, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

@Activist: thank you. I used to live in Albuquerque and was very perturbed by this case. The online video and 911 tapes all point to the conclusions you and I reached but Wikipedia in its innocence presumes that the Albuquerque Journal is as a secondary source more objective. The question about court cases was heartfelt. I once took a couple of parking tickets to court, and *they* are in that database. So if you can help please do. I'll try to get to this again soon as I know that two of the police officers are going on trial soon. Elinruby (talk) 17:44, 25 September 2016 (UTC) PS don't be so hard on subsequent editors -- most of them were probably similarly perturbed but did not know wiki syntax/policies. Elinruby (talk) 17:46, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

@Elinruby: Wikipedia owes you. What an immense cleanup you did. The problem is with unregistered users, you can't write them to give them a clue, so you can't tell if it's laziness or actually being naive about the process. There are some very good reporters on this beat in Albuquerque, Scott Sandlin with the ABQ Journal for instance. She's a whiz! But papers, pressed for profits, are shedding ace writers like a labrador in the desert. An award winning investigative reporter in a faraway city wrote me a few weeks ago, when I tipped her to a minor blip in one of her stories. She said, "Our dirty secret is that we no longer have copy editors." They cost more than owners think they should have to spend, or something like that... Activist (talk) 19:34, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

@Activist: fact is, tho, that most local media at the time parroted the police version that he was a dangerous criminal. And what I mentioned above is strictly speaking original research. Still, years have gone by and the family has won a lawsuit, so matters may have improved. And yes, I have run into my share of opinionated wikilawyers. Feel free to edit further if ya want, but I'll try to pitch in. I am trying to finish up some half-done translations today tho Elinruby (talk) 19:59, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

The LEOs were WAY out of control, though, as was exposed by Boyd's death on camera. Bad administration, able business agents fighting their PD cases. The two from Boyd's case are on trial right now, after the killer of Hawkes?, got reinstated. 20:12, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

@Activist: yep the cop who shot Mary Hawkes got his job back, based on the argument that it wasn't fair to penalize him for something everyone was doing. Seriously. Elinruby (talk) 21:04, 25 September 2016

• @Elinruby: I looked on my database. For some states, like AZ, it's very good. Others, not so much. NM is probably one. I got zero for Boyd. That may mean it's worthless in NM. However, he had broken some cop's nose. I figured it could have been a parks violation, so checked the federal inmate locator. Could this be him? I checked the federal SS death index and didn't find him as James Boyd. I went through the middle initials, as I didn't have his, after NMI, and got burned out by the "C"s. He would have been born in 75 or 76. So I found this:

JAMES BOYD Register Number: 41172-074 Age: 40 Race: White Sex: Male Released On: 05/02/2014 (Could have had a case closed when they found out he was dead, two months prior.) Hmmm.

@Activist: possibly. Age looks roughly right. I'll let you know when I'm back in this ... seems to me I saw a middle name somewhere, also. Check Facebook? Not a reliable source of course by it may give you a hypothesis to verify. In related news, Mary Hawke does not have an article. Elinruby (talk) 23:42, 25 September 2016 (UTC) PS took a quick look. Autopsy report has middle initial M; not sure yet what it stood for. Age 38 dob 4/8/75. I looked at http://metro.nmcourts.gov/ -- where you would expect to find this sort of minor offender for Albuquerque and www.nmcourts.gov, which is statewide, since apparently he was once arrested at White Sands. Wait maybe I have something in Alamogordo using M.... possibly I didn't before? Will update article if I do. Elinruby (talk) PPS lede says Matthew--if I let that stand I probably was able to verify it. Elinruby (talk) 00:05, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

• I brought the article up to date with yesterday's testimony and cleaned up still more of the text and citations. Activist (talk) 13:33, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

thanks, @Activist: all help appreciated Elinruby (talk) 04:53, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

dubious tag on statement about dropping the knife

I put the tag on as I recall, and nobody has responded to it in a year. The statement that he appeared to drop the knife is vague considering the number of versions of police video in which the editor might have seen, or thought he'd seen, this. It is not clear to me what happens to the knife, but the police witnesses appear to be unanimous that he was still holding at least one. I believe the statement that he'd dropped it may have been wishful thinking for somebody indignant about this case. I don't nonetheless subscribe to the notion that he still posed a threat, face down with three bullets in him. But I am going to remove that statement since I don't see sources that say it and if the editor was looking at the video that would be original research, which wikipedia frowns upon and this is probably a poster child for why. Elinruby (talk) 18:15, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

If you look at the helmet cam video, in the process when Boyd is shot/mortally wounded, beanbagged and chewed, he falls on his stomach and says "Don't hurt me," and "I can't move." Officers go to him intending to remove the knives from his outstretched hands. One LEO says to another, "step on his hand" and a knife is taken from his right hand. At this point, Boyd is suffering massive and ultimately fatal internal wounds and his right humerus is shattered, to the extent it needed to be amputated as ER doctors were trying to save his life. With the amount of damage his upper arm has suffered, I doubt that it didn't destroy the nerves that might have allowed him to open or close his right hand. Another officer I believe appears to have then removed a knife from his left hand, but I'm not sure if that was it. He had also been shot in the left arm, but the damage was not as extensive as with the right. There doesn't seem to be any resistance with the left arm, voluntary or reflexive. Both hands are brought around behind his back to be cuffed. All that I assume is SOP, in such a situation with a downed, armed suspect. In yesterday's testimony, by the way, there is LEO reference to discussion about whether or not Boyd might have committed a crime for which he might be arrested: Illegal camping did not provide such cause. So his status would have depended on what behavior might be construed as a threat to the officers, any of which would constitute assault. Just before the attempts to taze him and the flash bang, he clearly is saying that he did not want to hurt anyone and "I am not a murderer." He sounds remarkably calm and deliberative to me, for a psychotic person. The prosecutor or her co-counsel correctly imply, I believe, that his apparent physical and spoken intent was to walk down the hill. He had shouldered his backpack, and he then began picking up objects that were not knives from the ground to his right with both hands. One looked like it might be a long white thermos. If he were intent on attacking, it would seem to be unlikely that he would have encumbered his hands. They had pulled officer/negotiator Mikal Monette (sp?) out of the situation, though he had apparently succeeded in convincing Boyd to follow orders. My impression was that Officer Keith Sandy was intent on exercising a use of force, rather than allowing a peaceful resolution of the situation. An officer who until shortly before had been effectively controlling the situation left without a clear explanation and had walked downhill a considerable distance to speak with the resident who had called in the illegal camping complaint on Boyd. One wonders if this was consciously or unconsciously intended to allow Sandy to assume control and/or, if he sensed what was coming. Monette was referred to in the testimony on the afternoon of September 29, 2016, in the trial of the two charged officers, and his name was in the complaint in the lawsuit brought by Boyd's brother against the ABQ PD/City. In previous situations, he had invariably been successful in numerous negotiations. The testimony given by the officers, seemed not to be perjurious, per se, but rather crafted toward giving such an explanation of events that would best somehow confer a veneer of legitimacy to all the LEO actions at the campsite. It appeared somewhat to be focused toward creating reasonable doubts in the minds of those in the jury, that the thrown flash bang grenade, the tazing attempts, and the rifle shots could be construed as having a legitimate basis. The defense only needs to convince a single juror to get a hung jury, or for all, to get an acquittal. Activist (talk) 10:09, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

The defense theory is, I think, that they were protecting the dog and its handler. Elinruby (talk) 10:51, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

Seems a stretch, but they've been stretching, all right. The helmet cam doesn't clearly show how far Boyd was from the LEO's, including the K9 officer, but it was quite a distance. They could have backed up a bit while he passed with no problem. The flash bang was hugely inappropriate and set off the chain of events leading to Boyd's death, in my opinion. I think Boyd kept both knives, but they were described as "pocket knives," that is, w/o a locking blade, so less lethal. The prosecution is doing a good job, but cases like this often tend to be biased, in my experience, jurors giving the LEOs the benefit of the doubt. I wish I had time to watch the proceedings. It took them 45 minutes after Boyd was shot to get him to the E.R. From the helmet cam, you can see that they spent time going through his belongings at the campsite, pulling back covers, while he lay handcuffed and dying, I presume. Activist (talk) 13:12, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

Can't tell which crisis officer almost got him to leave

If anyone notices please note this. I have verified that the sentence is correct according the the reference provided.

Also, a technical point: crisis negotiators are part of SWAT, and this testimony says they were not deployed. So apparently he talked to two officers with crisis internetion training but not a crisis negotiator exactly? (?) Elinruby (talk) 19:10, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

Conjecture, misquotations, and shambles

This entry is full of conjecture, misquotes, and unsubstantiated opinions that do not belong in an encyclopedia entry. For example, the "Shooting" section states, "Some who have watched the video believe that the dog bit Boyd's hand, but most think it at Police demanded Boyd drop the two camping knives he was carrying." The video clearly shows that Mr. Boyd was never bitten on the hand, The autopsy does not mention it, there is no citation given for this opinion, and the rest of the sentence makes no sense. Another example, the article states, "There were no visible knives in his hands when an officer said 'Do it!' " The actual quotation cited does not contain the word "visible" and it's presence makes little sense. I'm going to do some general cleanup. Beanyane source ifdcecil (talk) 01:23, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

I was looking at that also Elinruby (talk) 18:34, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

The part about the dog biting his hand was, I think, already here. I was questioning it the other night, and now that I recall I went to see whether I could find a reference for the dog attacking the backpack, which is what I think happened. I got interrupted at that point, so I am probably the source if there was something half-baked there, sorry about that. That is still what I think happened, tho, that the dog bit the backpack, pending evidence to the contrary. I don't remember where visible came from; let me go look at the citation. One thing that bothered me about the account a few days ago was that if you believe he had a knife in his hand when he was on the ground then he must not have dropped that knife at least. Although Activist has a good point about the damage to his had, but officers might not realize this either. Elinruby (talk) 06:43, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

The first several times I watched the video, I thought that the dog bit Boyd on his right hand when he first approached him. There's something going on there but it's difficult to see exactly what it is. But since that time, I've read the autopsy report and there's absolutely no mention made of any damage to either hand. I've been to dozens of autopsies and they examine every square inch of skin so I doubt that it was missed. These forensic specialists even had another doctor watching over their shoulder. I don't think that the dog grabbed part of the backpack. The video shows that Boyd dropped it to the ground before the dog got to him. When the dog reaches him, it's on the ground to Boyd's right side, when that occurs. A dog of this quality, would definitely leave some marks if he bit unprotected bare skin, as on the hand. Perhaps not puncture wounds, but definitely bruises and abrasions.

The video of the incident is linked, in the Article, at this site. CLICK HERE TO VIEW THE VIDEOI suggest that you take a look at it maximized, on a large screen, not your smart phone, focusing on what can be heard and seen between 1:13 and 2:43. At this point the shots have been fired and Boyd has fallen to the ground. At 1:13 an officer is heard to say, "He's still got the knife in his hand." A few seconds later another officer asks, "Is he moving?" The first officer answers, "His hand(s), but he's still armed." The first officer says, "Get your hands out. Drop the knife." At about 1:28 another officer (I think) says, "Hands out to your side and drop the knife." After the first beanbag round is fired at about 1:37 two officers (separately) say, "Drop the knife." This statement is repeated after the second bean bag round is fired. The dog is then deployed. As the officers move up, towards Boyd, someone, I think it's the handler, at 2:04, says, "Alright he's bit. Somebody step on that right hand real hard." This request was probably made because, when they arrive at Boyd the handler will be focused on his dog, not watching for movement of Boyd's hands. The handler is (as is appropriate) the first to arrive at Boyd. He has to control his dog so that members of the team are not bitten by him. As they move forward, one officer, at 2:11 says twice, "He's got a knife in each hand." They could not see the knife in Boyd's left hand because they were slightly downhill from him and it was concealed by his right shoulder. He is lying face down with his feet generally towards the officers, and his left hand is wrapped under his head so that the hand is on the ground and is above his right shoulder area. Another officer repeats this statement but (I think) there's a questioning tone in his voice. Perhaps he's asking for confirmation? At this point in the video both knives can clearly be seen shining brightly as they reflect the light from the officers' weapon mounted lights. When they arrive at Mr. Boyd, the handler is the one who steps on Boyd's right hand, pinning it, and the knife it contains, to the ground. Another officer removes the knife from Boyd's left hand and tosses it away to the left and uphill from their location. At 2:38 another officer removes the knife from Boyd's right hand. [Of course, all of these times are approximate and maybe off by ± a second or so]. Beanyandcecil (talk) 15:26, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Again, the issue here is that the gavel to gavel coverage is giving us video, which wikipedia is leery of as a source. Secondary sources are generally preferred and the stuff you are talking about is original research. I'll look tho, for the sake of getting it right, because there really is a lot of material and almost all of the reporting is mutually contradictory. Then we need to find a reference that is correct, however. Meanwhile here, let's say starting at 26 minutes, the officer collecting forensic evidence testifies that the dog took the blue Qwest bag (not the backpack). A little earlier he testifies that Boyd was wearing multiple layers of clothing and while one probe came back from OME with the clothing, the other was recovered on the ground at the scene. I think I got the dog stuff from a report in one of the Santa Fe papers so that's not the source II was talking about yesterday, but it seems worth noting as I am looking at stuff. Elinruby (talk) 04:01, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Discrepancies in the article

At one point the article says, "...officers fired a Taser." At another point it says, "... two Taser weapons were fired at him. One missed, and the other struck his loose sweatshirt and failed to shock him." There is no citation given for the second statement and I've been unable to find such a reference. Unless someone can supply it, I'm going to delete the second reference.

I've also not found any citation for this statement from the article, "Its handler believes it may have accidentally stepped on one of the Taser electrical leads, or in some other way accidentally been Tasered." In fact, stepping on one electrical lead will not result in any current being delivered. It requires two leads for this to happen, otherwise the circuit isn't completed. Can anyone direct me to a source for this statement regarding his dog "panicking" from the handler? Beanyandcecil (talk) 05:07, 4 October 2016 (UTC) h

@Beanyandcecil: It's from the K9 officer's statement to the homicide detective, I believe; his concern was why the dog did not do what it was supposed to. It is true that it needs a source and I am not sure whether I failed to provide it or someone removed it, as sometimes happens in controversial articles. In any event, let's just say I wrote that and am confident I can provide a source, say tonight. I am on my way out the door and can't get too immersed in this right this sec, but I wanted to answer you, say thank you for your edits, some of which seem well-taken (I am only saying "some" because I haven't looked at them all) although I though you have too much detail about the knife in the lede and I don't know that "threatened" has a source other than possibly self-justifying officer statement. I don't have time to address that either, but in case you are here before I am tonight, I propose moving that to the body, where he produces that knife. Elinruby (talk) 18:29, 4 October 2016 (UTC) PS I believe there was only one Taser; possibly it was fired twice, not sure, don't think that one was me Elinruby (talk) 18:32, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

"Negotiations" or "unsuccessful negotiations?"

One editor writes, "After more than three hours of negotiations, officers fired Tasers, threw a flash bang device and a police dog was sent to bite him." I added the word "unsuccessful" so that the statement read, "After more than three hours of unsuccessful negotiations, officers fired Tasers, threw a flash bang device and a police dog was sent to bite him."

The initial statement makes it sound as if the officers decided that three house of negotiating was 'long enough' and so they escalated the force. That's not what happened. The negotiations, including some with trained mental health professionals, were UNSUCCESSFUL and Mr. Boyd decided that he was going to walk down the hill. The officers could not permit that, and since it was getting dark, and it would be unsafe for them, the public and Mr. Boyd, to allow this, they they tried to take him into custody using first, less lethal force and finally, with lethal force. Beanyandcecil (talk) 15:35, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

why would not the officers not be able to permit that? That was the whole *point* -- that he couldn't camp there. Easy to lose sight of that when they sent 41 officers to tell him so, I know, but... It does seem to me from a close reading of the sources that that is exactly what happened. They lost patience. Elinruby (talk)

They would not permit it for several reasons. First: in such tactical situations LE (Law Enforcement) sets up an inner and an outer perimeter. The first is to contain the problem. The second is to ensure that if the person being dealt with escapes the inner perimeter, he's still contained by the outer perimeter. The outer perimeter also ensures that other people, not involved, do not enter the inner perimeter and interfere with the officers who are directly dealing with the situation.

Second: The officers on the inner perimeter, and many of them on the outer perimeter knew of Boyd's violent history. He had used an edged weapon to cut a citizen and had punched a police officer, breaking his nose. He was well known by LE for countless threats of violence in many other situations. At the scene he threatened to kill any officer who approached him. He made threats to kill the officers, one source estimated it, 19 times.

Third: There were hikers all over the area. The outer perimeter officers kept them away from the scene, but their safety could not be ensured if the officers had allowed Boyd, still armed with at least two knives, to walk down the hill, thereby breaking both the inner and the outer perimeters. They did not know at the time whether or not he possessed additional weapons because he had not allowed them to pat him down for them.

Fourth: The safety of the officers could not be ensured if they allowed Boyd to walk down the hill. The area is full of cactus and is hilly, rocky and wild. There are only a handful of trails through the area. They are narrow walking paths a few inches wide, here in the US, commonly called "single track." At the inner perimeter location officers could spread out on the flat area and several of them could cover Boyd at any minute. If he had been allowed to walk down the hill, it would have been impossible for more than one or two officers to cover him at any given moment. Anyone with LE experience would call such a movement "a nightmare."

Fifth: it was far more than merely not allowing him to "camp there." They intended to take him into custody for a mental health evaluation. He was clearly "a danger to himself and to others." I can't imagine the carnage that might have occurred if a citizen had walked up on him.

The official report is that there were 19 officers, not 41, involved in the incident. At such scenes other officers may drift by, but they are not directly involved. The only place that the number "41" appears is on the family's lawsuit, which was settled out of court. In such filings it's common to allege that huge numbers of officer were present. Usually they are named "John Does 20-40" to allow people to be added to the suit as their names are learned. In any case, your statement is wrong on its face. APD did not send "41 officers to tell him" that he could not camp there, they sent two. When Boyd threatened to kill both of them with a knife, and he aggressively threatened them with it, thereby committing a felony, assault with a deadly weapon on a police officer, HE escalated the situation.

Far from "los[ing] patience" in this situation, the officers spent over three hours trying to reason with him. They called in mental health professionals to try and talk him down. But they could not get through to him. Neither they, nor the officers could get through to him. They either asked or ordered him to put down his knives about 33 times but he refused.

In similar situations in more urban areas it's not unheard of for these situations to go on for days. I've sent out for burgers, coffee, soft drinks, and pizza on a couple of them that I was directly involved in. In more urban areas LE will set up lights if none are present to better help them control the scene. But in this situation, they're in a wild, unimproved area, and setting up lights was not possible. The sun was setting, you might have noticed at the end of the video how dark it had gotten, and they could not allow the situation to continue into darkness. That would negatively affect the safety of all concerned, to a huge amount. You also may have noticed that the sun had set before the actual confrontation that took Boyd's life. There was no more time to spend on this situation. It had to be brought to a head. EVEN SO, the officers still tried to use less lethal force, they threw a flash−bang device in the hope that it would startle Boyd into not resisting their movement to take him into custody. They fired a shotgun Taser but it had no effect. (Are you aware that standard Tasers have a 20% failure rate – that is they have absolutely no effect on the subject they are used on? Are you aware that the shotgun Tasers have even a higher failure rate)? And they used a police dog to either take him down or at least provide a distraction that they hoped would enable them to wrestle him down and take him into custody.

The officers spent over three hours negotiating with Boyd, and he did not make a single concession to improve the situation. And so, since the sun had set and darkness was fast approaching, the situation had to be ended.

It seems that like many, you simply don't understand the complexity of LE tactical situations. Most of the public's education on such matters comes from TV and the movies. There's nothing wrong with that, and I'd not expect the average citizen to know or to understand them without some training, education and experience. But judging these kinds of situations from such a position, often leads one astray. Beanyandcecil (talk) 03:49, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

@Beanyandcecil: ya, I was gathering you are law enforcement; that's actually good because the article was leaning too far the other way when I got here, for example the sentence I took out about dropping the knife. I am primarily concerned with making the article as accurate as possible, because, in my personal opinion, what really happened was egregious and not something I feel comfortable with having happen in a city people that know me know that I love. But that also means weeding out any inaccuracies that can be used to discredit this account. In fact, you almost sound like you might be from APD, which would, btw, be ok as long as you say so, just as it is ok for me to say I am furious that this -- any of this, the DoJ report, any of it, happened in a police department that --- let's just say I am appalled by APD on many levels and on second thought I can't tell that story because it could conceivably compromise someone else's privacy. I don't like APD, as an organization, because I believe the DoJ report and also because I have seen very apathetic responses to actual crimes. But I have also seen a couple of APD officers handle things very well a couple of times and I also have nonetheless used what social media influence I might have to urge people to call them with what they might know about a road rage incident on I-40 that wound up getting a little girl shot in the head. I am not hating on anyone who doesn't go around shooting people for no reason. Or interested in anything but having this article be exactly right. So. If you are APD, say so and any change you can make a case for will get made, but certain rules apply, not sure what they are exactly. So, now that that is out of the way, let me see your questions again. Hmm, I think I will do a paragraph break here for readability, too. Elinruby (talk) 05:04, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

1.Wait, all we are talking about here is whether to add unsuccessful? I might not actually be against that, but it does sound like we have completely different perceptions of these events and should probably chat about them here.

2.Re: inner/outer perimeter, sure maybe but the problem we are trying to solve here is that park rules say you cannot camp without a permit, right?

3.I was looking for the police reports on those Albuquerque incidents and and not finding them. Do you know what's up with that? Also the incident at Holloman sounds considerably different depending on whether he was "trying to get into", "walked up to the gate of" or somehow already on the base when he told people he was on a mission from Gerald Ford. I mean, I grant you he was looney toons, schizo-affective disorder not schizoprenia, though, there is a difference. Do tell on the threats of violence on countless other occasions. I think we already have the incident at the firestation, right? What else? So, 19 times is interesting but where does it come from? I know Thickstun, who was filming this from his house, testified to hearing this once. It is possible that someone else, maybe McDaniel, testified to this as well. I think that was a question I had, because I think I found only one short reference to his testimony at hmmm, I think it was at the preliminary hearing. This is probably a good place for a paragraph break. Elinruby (talk) 05:30, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

4. About secondary sources, you do realize that the standard for "true" on wikipedia is "because here is something edited and published that says so", right? Not life experience or something so and so said to me once. The problem here is that some of the secondary sources disagree, as in my Holloman example above. Re hikers, doesn't that place close at dark, theoretically anyway? Wouldn't any perimeter have been also been behind Boyd then, since presumably hikers would have been coming back down the mountain to their cars? Also, according to Thickstun, Boyd had been there a month. Without wreaking havok among the local hiker population, or surely we would be hearing about it. Right? But it's suddenly a tac-alert? I have watched multiple videos of the incident several times and I lived for quite some time in Albuquerque. One house was I lived in was also the last street before open space off Tramway, though in that case just outside city limits. I know what the trail probably looked like, but I have never been to this particular trailhead, I don't think; I lived further north. Elinruby (talk) 05:49, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Re 5150: If you say so. Maybe you are right, but I have not seen that (mental health check) mentioned anywhere. See secondary sources, above. The only thing I have seen about intentions going in was a) they called officer Sandy to bring his recalled weapon and expired ammunition to the location because regular APD units had withdrawn the X12 from use. Sandy then says he wants to be lethal cover, gives the Taser to someone else, both of these after telling a state trooper that he planned to shoot Boyd in the penis. That's what we know about intentions so far. He'd apparently already had quite a few mental health evaluations already and had recently been determined incompetent and untreatable. If they knew him as well as all that -- which I am willing to believe -- then they knew that already too. Do you know that the sergeant in charge declined crisis negotiators? That two officers with crisis intervention each made some headway with Boyd? And were then pulled off? Do you know that Perez says Booyah after he shoots the guy? There is a story about Perez's birthday; have you heard about that? Elinruby (talk) 06:26, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Re number of officers:The number 41 is indeed from the family's filing. Rolling Stone also says this but that is probably also where they get forty. If you don't like 40, chose some other number that you think is true, and we can talk. I think I saw that one or two of the ones on the family list were dispatchers, for example. But we need some number there because imho the sheer number of guns pointed at a disabled citizen is notable. "Two" doesn't work though because those were not APD officers. They are fully commissioned but they work for the Parks and Open Space department. Re knife: yes. A pocket knife. Re:dark - yes. Sandy, yeah the guy who volunteered for lethal cover and announced he was going to shoot Boyd while he was still down in the street, threw the flash-bang, because he wanted to get things done with because it was getting dark.

Boyd did make a concession -- he agreed to come down. Remember, his position was that he had every right to be where he was and he wasn't someone APD could order around because in his mind he somehow outranked them. As for tactical situations. no, I have never had a law enforcement point a gun at me. I'll address issues above in those sections Elinruby (talk) 06:26, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

• • @Beanyandcecil:@Elinruby:, I'm a bit upset by the comments and the editing here. It's my opinion that Elinruby ("ER") has gone to great lengths to get this right, to be objective, to be neutral. ER has been meticulous in exhaustively reviewing those available materials to a degree that I've rarely seen in 10 years of editing Wikipedia. I don't see that to be the case with Beanyandcecil, ("B&C") whose edits seem to me as if they're written by defense counsel for the shooters. Here we're expected to "assume good faith," but that doesn't rule out any exercise of legitimate skepticism. The shooters were indicted due to the existence of probable cause, and a jury found the City to be liable for the excesses that produced this awful death to the tune of $5 million, almost three times the damages for which the Boyd estate asked. None of this happened because there were hikers supposedly stumbling into danger on the scene. None of it happened because it was dark, as the sun had barely gone down. None of this happened because the negotiations were going nowhere. (Use of the term "unsuccessful" does not seem to rest on RSS.) None of this happened because responding officers were endangered. Reliable sources in the media seem to have given the indicted duo the benefit of the doubt. If anything, to me it appears command was inappropriately assumed because at least one individual for whom the public and Wikipedia readers have been given a context, seemed anxious to engage in a "turkey shoot." ER puts the question regarding disclosure of a potential COI on the part of B&C. I believe that's a legitimate question and deserves an honest response. I also won't have time for perhaps a week to address this, point by point, but I would suggest that standing down would be useful at this point to arrive at a constructive solution to the differences of opinion. Wikipedia readers are not going to be deciding on the merits of any case, whether for exoneration, conviction or inconclusively producing a hung jury. Jurors, who have been explicitly warned not to read anything about the case before them aren't going to be reading this. Testimony has been completed and the final arguments and judge's instructions should send the case to the jury tomorrow. Activist (talk) 00:15, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

@Elinruby: I am retired LE with 30 years on the job. I retired with the rank of sergeant. My experience, as regards this discussion, includes: serving as department Rangemaster, SWAT team, FTO (Field Training Officer), OIS (Officer Involved Shooting team), K−9 handler and trainer, and UOF (Use of Force) Instructor. Now that I've retired, and while I was on the job, I worked as a legal consultant, a court recognized expert on firearms and edged weapons, general UOF, and K−9 matters. I was not with APD, although I do have some inside contacts there.

Elinruby wrote, "just as it is ok for me to say I am furious that this -- any of this, the DoJ report, any of it, happened in a police department that --- let's just say I am appalled by APD on many levels"

The police department for the city that I live in, was policed by a world class department. Agencies from around the world sent its members here to learn from special teams and special desks (specialized assignments). But they've suffered through several riots, and at least one (perhaps two) consent decrees from the DOJ. They too were told that they had patterns or practices of racism and using excessive force. I was privy to many of their investigations and knew many of the officers involved. Occasionally the charges made by the DOJ was accurate, but more often the DOJ was 'engaged in a pattern and practice of political correctness,' and lacking in reality. That is just one reason that incidents involving UOF must be judged on an individual basis, not the results of a DOJ study that speaks to generalities. Training officers 'not to be racist,' is a waste of time and funds. The world will always have racists, it's impossible to weed them out. The best we can do is to be aware of it, minimize it and 'police' it whenever it appears. I have no problem in firing LEOs who do the wrong thing, if the act was done purposefully. Officers who have not been trained or who make honest mistakes should be disciplined and retrained. I'm not one of those who automatically 'backs the blue' or who tries to cover up wrongdoing. LEOs who do this are a very small minority.

Elinruby wrote, "I am not hating on anyone who doesn't go around shooting people for no reason. Or interested in anything but having this article be exactly right."

I'm with you on this.

Elinruby wrote, " 1.Wait, all we are talking about here is whether to add unsuccessful? I might not actually be against that, but it does sound like we have completely different perceptions of these events and should probably chat about them here."

Yes, if you're referring to the difference between "negotiation" and "unsuccessful negotiation" in the article, that's the difference. Without the "unsuccessful" adjective, it sounds as if there was some arbitrary time limit on how long they'd negotiate. Or it sounds as you've said, "They lost patience." " This was hardly such a matter. I've already spoken to the reason that they decided to move from conversation to taking Boyd into custody. There are sound and reasonable tactical reasons for this to have occurred. Your opinion is just that, opinion. It's based on your emotions regarding this case and is conjecture. I think that it gives the reader a feeling about the incident that may or may not be true. I think it places a bias on the article that should not be there. Inserting the word "unsuccessful" is factual and accurate and removes the emotion that readers may feel without it.

Elinruby wrote, "2.Re: inner/outer perimeter, sure maybe but the problem we are trying to solve here is that park rules say you cannot camp without a permit, right?"

Well, that's what started the call. I'd bet that when the Open Space Officers arrived they only wanted to move Boyd out of the area where it was illegal for him to camp. Had he moved his camp a couple of hundred yards (perhaps less) he could have spent the rest of his life there, camping was legal near where he was encamped. But when they contacted him, he escalated it into a felony – 'assault on a police officer with a deadly weapon.' (The penal code of that jurisdiction may call it something else, but the crime is still the same), by threatening to kill those officers and threatening them with a deadly weapon, his knife. Not seeing this, as seems to be the case here, has lead some astray.

Think of a shoplifter who kills the officer who comes to take him into custody, and is then lawfully and properly shot by other officers when he shoots at them. There are those who will say that he 'was killed for shoplifting,' but of course that's absurd.

Elinruby wrote, "3.I was looking for the police reports on those Albuquerque incidents and and not finding them. Do you know what's up with that?"

I have no idea where such reports might be. I think it was you who surmised that they might be destroyed if the party is deceased. But that's not the policy anywhere that I know of. I guessed earlier that, because there were no criminal charges filed, that he was placed on a mental 'hold,' that due to HIPPA rules, the files are not available.

Elinruby wrote, "Also the incident at Holloman sounds considerably different depending on whether he was "trying to get into", "walked up to the gate of" or somehow already on the base when he told people he was on a mission from Gerald Ford. I mean, I grant you he was looney toons, schizo-affective disorder not schizoprenia, though, there is a difference."

I'm not familiar with this incident. I've only studied this contact with APD.

Elinruby wrote, "Do tell on the threats of violence on countless other occasions. I think we already have the incident at the firestation, right? What else?"

There are several reports of LE being called to a library and several of him accosting people on the street. I don't have these citations and they may have come during testimony at the trial.

Elinruby wrote, " So, 19 times is interesting but where does it come from?"

I recall seeing an exhibit during the trial, presented by the defense, that made that claim. Another slide said that the officers asked, or told Boyd to put down his knife 33 times. I realize those statements are evidence and not proof.

Elinruby wrote, "4. About secondary sources, you do realize that the standard for "true" on wikipedia is "because here is something edited and published that says so", right? Not life experience or something so and so said to me once. The problem here is that some of the secondary sources disagree, as in my Holloman example above."

Yes, I get that standard. Witnesses will rarely agree down to the smallest details. Heck, sometimes they disagree as to the largest details. Different viewpoints, sometimes based on where someone is standing, and in what direction they are looking, means that they will have different perceptions. In the recent Charlotte shooting the police said the man had a gun. His wife said it was a book. No book was found. A gun was found. It contained the man's DNA and his fingerprints. He was also wearing an ankle holster. As the saying goes – Who you gonna believe, the wife or your lying eyes?

Remember the Ferguson incident? One witness claimed that Michael Brown had his hands in the air, was on his knees when he was executed by Officer Darren Wilson. But that was completely discredited by other witnesses, and perhaps most importantly by the physical evidence from the autopsy. Yet it was the spark for the activist organization BLM (Black Lives Matter) and is based on the false narrative, "Hands up. Don't shoot." This chant and the 'hands up pose' has been seen at virtually every demonstration since.

Elinruby wrote, "Re hikers, doesn't that place close at dark, theoretically anyway?"

Yes, but relying on that to guarantee that no 'late leavers' are present means that someone might be placed into a deadly situation. Where I worked we had several parks that closed at sunset. On an average week, we'd chase as many as a dozen people out who 'hadn't read the sign, forgot what it said,' or 'just didn't care.'

Elinruby wrote, "Wouldn't any perimeter have been also been behind Boyd then, since presumably hikers would have been coming back down the mountain to their cars?"

This is just tactically too much to expect from even the best trained officers. You'd want to still maintain both the inner and the outer perimeter. That means two groups of officers, both in front of and behind Boyd, moving at about the same pace that he was, while avoiding allowing him to get too close to them, avoiding stepping into the cactus or tripping on the rocks that covered the area. All the while keeping four inner perimeter officers (two with less lethal and two with lethal force options) covering him. This would have a constant danger of crossfire, where Boyd would be in between two groups of officers. There are those who will say that LEOs took the job, knowing that it was dangerous. To them I say, that, yes, I knew it was dangerous. But there's a big difference between taking necessary risks and taking UNnecessary risks. This mobile, dual−layer perimeter is in the latter category.

If, while moving down the trail, the officer anticipated that Boyd would take THIS trail but suddenly he veered off onto a fork in the trail, both perimeters might collapse. And given his unpredictability, this would greatly increase the danger to him and the officers. A basic rule of these situations is that you don't allow the subject to move out of the inner perimeter.

Elinruby wrote, "Also, according to Thickstun, Boyd had been there a month. Without wreaking havok among the local hiker population, or surely we would be hearing about it. Right?"

We can't know why it never happened. Perhaps neither God nor the DOJ ever gave a him a 'go code' for any of the hikers. Perhaps they recognized him for the disturbed person that he was and 'the word was out' so that everyone avoided him. But it's just conjecture. He had a violent history. It's the nature of LE work to 'hope for the best, but be prepared for the worst.' They knew of his past assaults, one with an edged weapon and of his previous assault on a LEO.

Elinruby wrote, " But it's suddenly a tac-alert?"

At the outset it was just two officers who in all likelihood just going to ask him to move along. I've occasionally helped these folks load property into their shopping carts to speed things up. But when Boyd escalated to deadly force and assaulted the officer with a deadly weapon, it escalated.

Elinruby wrote, " I have watched multiple videos of the incident several times and I lived for quite some time in Albuquerque. One house was I lived in was also the last street before open space off Tramway, though in that case just outside city limits. I know what the trail probably looked like, but I have never been to this particular trailhead, I don't think; I lived further north."

Here's another video done by a contributor to PINAC (Photography Is Not A Crime – generally regarded as an anti−government organization) where the narrator goes to the area where Boyd was camping, walks up the trail, and examines the area of the shooting. Unfortunately it's highly biased against the police, but it does give a good overview of the area. CLICK HERE TO SEE THE VIDEO

Elinruby wrote, "Re 5150: If you say so. Maybe you are right, but I have not seen that (mental health check) mentioned anywhere."

Come to think of it, I don't recall seeing it written down anywhere. Perhaps it came from my own experience. Nonetheless, the officers planned to take Boyd into custody after his ADW (Assault with a Deadly Weapon) on the Open Space Officers. I don't think it matters whether they planned to book him at the jail or place a psychiatric hold on him. But tell me, after expending this many resources on him, after spending over three hours negotiating, After he threatened to kill two LEOs, after he pulled a knife on those LEOs, do you really think they planned to just escort him off the hill? Or is some sort of custody more likely? You do realize that sometimes LE lies to get people into custody without a fight, right?

Elinruby wrote, "The only thing I have seen about intentions going in was a) they called officer Sandy to bring his recalled weapon and expired ammunition to the location because regular APD units had withdrawn the X12 from use. Sandy then says he wants to be lethal cover, gives the Taser to someone else, both of these after telling a state trooper that he planned to shoot Boyd in the penis."

It's clear that he was referring to using his Taser shotgun for the 'penis shot.'

Elinruby wrote, "That's what we know about intentions so far. He'd apparently already had quite a few mental health evaluations already and had recently been determined incompetent and untreatable. If they knew him as well as all that -- which I am willing to believe -- then they knew that already too."

You know as well as I do, that such a prognosis can change as the condition changes. Just because that's the information from last time he was seen, hardly means that's the case now.

Elinruby wrote, "Do you know that the sergeant in charge declined crisis negotiators? That two officers with crisis intervention each made some headway with Boyd? And were then pulled off?"

I'm familiar with both of these parts of the incident. The "crisis negotiators" were from another team within the department. One team was already on scene and involved with Boyd. As with horses, 'you don't change negotiators in the middle of the stream.' The "two officers [who you say] with crisis intervention [training who had] ... made some headway with Boyd" really hadn't. He agreed to walk down the hill but when told that he had to surrender his knives, Boyd refused to do so and declined their invitation. The last negotiator was pulled off when it started to get dark and the supervisor decided that more negotiation was not going to accomplish anything, and that it was time to take Boyd into custody before it got any darker.

Elinruby wrote, "Do you know that Perez says Booyah after he shoots the guy? There is a story about Perez's birthday; have you heard about that?"

I have not heard about the "Booyah." When does it occur? But given the intensity of the situation and knowing the reactions of people who have been fortunate enough to survive them, I'm not surprised. Such responses at having survived lethal situations, are quite common. Various people have various reactions to stress. I've seen anger, tears, uncontrollable shaking, a desperate need to phone a spouse and tell them that they're OK, cursing, laughing, urination, defecation, complete calm, an extreme need to talk, an inability to talk, and more. Some of them, given the time and situation, seem quite out of place, but until someone has been there, one does not know what the reaction will be. Witness otherwise ordinary people who rise to the occasion, and display uncharacteristic courage and heroism, and others, who flee at the first loud noise.

What's the "story" about the party?

Elinruby wrote, "Re number of officers:The number 41 is indeed from the family's filing. Rolling Stone also says this but that is probably also where they get forty. If you don't like 40, chose some other number that you think is true, and we can talk. I think I saw that one or two of the ones on the family list were dispatchers, for example. But we need some number there because imho the sheer number of guns pointed at a disabled citizen is notable."

I think I saw a slide during the trial that said '20 officers.' I think that's a reasonable number. I used fewer but then I never had a situation like this, on this type of terrain. In an urban environment it's easier to secure a location. I've had subjects who decided to go 'walkabout' and that greatly complicated the situations, but still it's easier in a city, than in the boondocks.

Elinruby wrote, " 'Two' doesn't work though because those were not APD officers. They are fully commissioned but they work for the Parks and Open Space department."

Yes, and they were present while it was still a simple call.

Elinruby wrote, "Re knife: yes. A pocket knife."

You keep minimizing the danger by calling his weapon(s) "a pocket knife." . As I've added to the article, this was a "lock-back, folding pocket knife with a 3 1/2" (8.9 cm) partially-serrated blade." The fact that it locks open means that it will not close on your fingers if you apply force in the 'wrong' direction. It increases its utility as a weapon. The blade is long enough to cause death either by a slash to the neck or a stab to the chest or abdomen. The blade is long enough to reach internal organs. It is capable of inflicting death or serious injury. The serrations that make up about half of the blade, inflict a jagged wound that is difficult to repair, difficult for someone in the field to stop from bleeding, and if the injured party recovers, usually leaves a horrendous scar. In many jurisdictions a knife that is only 1/2" (1.3cm) longer is a violation of the law. They can be confiscated and the person carrying them, can be arrested. So many people carry a knife that is just shorter that that length. But I don't know the law in NM or the City of Albuquerque.

Commonly a "pocket knife" has a fairly short blade, often less than 2" − 3" (5cm – 7.6cm) and is not capable of reaching the internal organs of a human. It can still cause serious injury or death if veins or arteries that are near the surface are severed. Commonly they do not lock open. In many jurisdictions, the possession of a knife whose blade locks in the open position is a violation. Again, I don't know the law in NM or the City of Albuquerque.

I am trained in knife combatives as well as knife defense. A blade of that length would not be my first choice if I had to defend myself or if I planned on attacking someone, but it would certainly do the job, if needed. At close ranges a knife is a highly dangerous weapon. More so than even a holstered gun. Lots of people survive what should be deadly gunshots. No one survives having their carotid artery cut in two. Gun run out of ammunition and they sometimes malfunction. Knives never 'run dry,' and it's very rare that they stop working in the middle of a 'job.'

Elinruby wrote, "Re:dark - yes. Sandy, yeah the guy who volunteered for lethal cover and announced he was going to shoot Boyd while he was still down in the street, threw the flash-bang, because he wanted to get things done with because it was getting dark."

You seem to think that allowing this to continue in the dark would be 'no big deal.' I'm wondering, do you have any education, training, or experience in such police matters? The military? Anything? You seem to be giving opinions on tactical situations and I'm wondering where you obtain your expertise in them?

Elinruby wrote, "Boyd did make a concession -- he agreed to come down. Remember, his position was that he had every right to be where he was and he wasn't someone APD could order around because in his mind he somehow outranked them."

C'mon Elinruby, the thoughts of a mental patient can't possibly control such a situation.

Elinruby wrote, "As for tactical situations. no, I have never had a law enforcement point a gun at me."

I have several times. For awhile in my career I worked undercover and looked like someone that LE should be talking to. I was careful to move slowly and deliberately and to obey the commands given to me. Beanyandcecil (talk) 23:43, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

At no point does Sandy say Taser

He says shotgun Police version is that of course he meant Taser shotgun. Secondary sources very mixed and I believe the ones that scoff at the police version, esp given the DoJ report specifically condemning APD practices with respect to the mentally ill. I have removed "[Taser]" from the quote. Elinruby (talk) 07:42, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

It's not necessary that he use the word "Taser." It's not that it's the "police version" it's that it's a reasonable conclusion to come to after listening to the conversation between the officers and reading the transcript of it I've located several sources that support that Sandy was talking about a Taser shotgun, not a standard shotgun. I'm going to add a few paragraphs to the Article and move a sentence that does not belong where it is. Beanyandcecil (talk) 04:43, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

POV template

I am supposed to be somewhere else right now but I flagged this because of many small changes I can't address right now that add POV problems and sometimes error. The stuff I just removed about the DA for example -- would have been a POV issue anyway but an investigation sais she DIDN'T DO it. More later. Elinruby (talk) 16:19, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

I am home earlier than I expected and am going through the article for missing references. Elinruby (talk) 22:48, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Unsupported edits, inappropriately placed

@Beanyandcecil:@Elinruby: You've once again savaged the article,Beanyandcecil. You've put the specifics about a knife into the lede, which is inappropriate detail in itself for the lede, but none of the standing first three citations say anything about the knife except that it's a "pocket knife," but you finally added one, which mentions that the blade was "about" 3.5 inches. In order to revert your inappropriate edit, I had to read all four citations to determine that what you contended existed was not in fact in the original citations or the one you supplied. Given your deletion of text and another citation shortly prior, you certainly know what's expected of edits, yet you chose to shoehorn in your desired description. I dread having to go through all your edits, one after another, to determine their legitimacy, and don't have the time to do so. You're an ex-law enforcement officer, so you know what the standards of evidence are, so this should not be a novel concept to you. Please stop reverting supported text, and inserting text that is not supported. Thank you. Activist (talk) 07:59, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

I'm puzzled how the mention of a "5150" in this article or talk came up. I presume Elinruby didn't introduce it. It's a California Welfare and Institutions Code section that concerns involuntary commitment typically for individuals who are a danger to themselves. I can't imagine that the same statute and number exists in New Mexico. Activist (talk) 07:59, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

There was testimony last week from an officer who had supervisory authority on the scene who ventured that he was not sure whether there were grounds at all for Boyd to be charged. I can't remember his name, but he appeared tall, thin, very short hair and light brown skin. If he was there, and wasn't certain if there were grounds for arrest, and if so, what they were, that does seem counter to an armchair analysis made 2 1/2 years later, I would think that there was clearly probably cause. Given the uncomfortable situation for him, with Keith Sandy moving in to call the shots, he went to talk to the complainant, Thickstun, more than a hundred yards distant, where he was when the quickly lethal decisions were made. I went back and looked at the helmet cam that is linked at the article, once again, and it appears to me from that perspective that Boyd might have been 40' away when the flash bang device was thrown at him, at a point when he was complying with demands by gathering up some of his possessions and beginning to descend. Activist (talk) 07:59, 6 October 2016 (UTC)